during the Portal GDC talk the devs mentioned that Valve has a policy, cultural reference jokes need to be funny on their own even if you don't know the reference. it's a great philosophy to keep games timeless.
I'm reminded of all the cultural references in classic Looney Tunes cartoons. The vast majority go completely over everyone's heads here, 80 years later, or you react like "that must've been a cultural reference to something back in those days", but the cartoons are still funny regardless.
I think Borderlands 2 is a great example of a wonderful game that really jumped the shark with dated internet references that seem quite bizarre over a decade later.
@@John-uw2je Yea BL3 was dated before it came out. I hated the "streamer/influencer" vibe and everything was constantly screaming and flashing bright colors at you all the time.
They were awful the year they came out and pretty lazy. Oh wow, it's actually just a creeper. You put a creeper in your game cause minecraft. Hilarious?
I'm reminded of the quiz in Liesure Suit Larry with "adult" questions that are supposed to ensure kids don't play. Today, that quiz will instead filter out most adults, and the only ones who will get through are retirement age folks.
Completely agree with your rule on reference subtlety. Not only is said reference more likely to do what you described, but will also likely land much harder for the people that _do_ get it since the writer isn't effectively screaming "CURRENT TOPICAL SUBJECT!" in the audience's face.
This reminded me of the fnv book burning robot, When I first played it I had never read 1984 or Fahrenheit 451, but the satire of an oppressive government asking me to destroy 'propaganda' wasn't lost as the concept of book burning for a government regime wasn't exclusive to 1984. I will say though, replaying fnv years later it was even funnier.
I never understood a lot of the pop culture references in Fallout 2 because a lot of the media from USA was not available in my country. So whenever there was a pop culture encounter, I would either a.) not know it's a pop culture reference and just think that this was something that was actually part of the story of Fallout 2. OR b.) I would kinda know it was a pop culture reference but I would just be like "huh, okay..." and just continue on with quests.
Your comment points out to something I also feel about cultural references: They are sometimes borderline plagiarism. X-Men 97 had one scene that is a "cultural reference" to Zack Snyder's Man of Steel, almost shot by shot, very similar. Where it's just a reference, a homage, and where it does become plagiarism? If we watch it and we didn't knew it was a homage, and ended up being amazed by how cool that scene was... Wasn't it plagiarism then?
@@Illusionaire1 Tarantino got some (IMO well-deserved) flak for that with Kill Bill. Especially if you're a big presence and "homage" something that is much lesser known, that can definitely tread the line.
I seriously hated how they were implemented in F2. NPCs randomly saying "these aren't the droids you're looking for" with no context or connection to the world at all
It’s funny you mention the wild wasteland perk in Fallout NV, because that’s the one that made me think of your rule. The bit in Old World Blues when the skeleton suit guys say “Hey who turned out the lights?” is a great Doctor Who nod that most people wouldn’t think twice about.
I love the Gremlins reference in Old World Blues especially since the devs went the extra step to program the deathclaw to avoid the water fountain because that's where Stripe died in the movie.
Locked in time: try playing the original Leisure Suit Larry, and trying to pass the age check at the beginning ... you must be like 60 now to know some of those answers.
If you've got a story about a group of elves fighting against dragons to secure their kingdom, the worst thing you could ever do is have the elves yelling "elf lives matter" and the dragons responding "make dragons great again"
@@yamchadragonball6983 Being an Aussie, I had no idea that the Red Ryder BB Gun was a reference to anything. It was just this odd useless seeming gun that I always ignored. After marrying an American I was exposed to A Christmas Story and went 'Oh, thats pretty funny as long as you're aware of that one film thats beloved by a completely different culture to mine'. So I suppose it worked in the way that Tim describes it for folks that don't get the references.
@@yamchadragonball6983it’s a Time Machine from the tv show Doctor Who. If you like sci-fi and British people check it out. However. Make sure you check which seasons are good and which seasons are awful.
The Elvis Picture in F1 mad me mad at the time..... i thought about it`s purporse for YEARS! It was so unique i thought there MUST be a secret reason. Something i could do with it.
One thing in Fallout 2 is that the Vice President Daniel Bird is a reference to Dan Quayle, HW Bush's VP. I wasn't alive when Bush Sr. was President, so the reference went way over my head. Also riffing on weird things a Vice President said is such a deep reference that requires a lot of knowledge to even get it. I guess it works to show that Bird isn't all there but I know nothing about Quayle to know if he was like that irl
But even if you don't know the reference, his lines are still funny. Works perfectly well. Many bits and jokes in Naked Gun and other Zuckers' movies are like that.
IIRC most of Daniel Bird's lines are near verbatim quotes from Quayle. I thought it was distracting and weird even when I knew what they were referencing.
@@lhfirex Yeah, I felt like that guy was just there for some obscure jokes for limited audience(which it was). I never checked his Wiki page to understand it, I just ignored him.
A great example of a song using references that don’t age well is actually the song ‘Anything Goes’ which was used in the Fallout 4 radio. The song is pretty much entirely references to scandals that happened around 1934, so now, 90 years later, nobody knows who any of these people are or what they did.
That's an interesting one. The lyrics are dated, but seeing current events as signs of societal downfall has happened for thousands of years. The tune is so good that the song outlasted the relevance of its lyrics
2:11 that also happens with international audiences. My experience as a non-US national is I often have no clue what/who is being referenced despite knowing a lot of US culture. For US folk: Imagine if Zelda started referecing "famous" Japanese celebrities/politicians 😅.
I mean, I'd love that tbh. I really enjoy looking into what fun references and nods that creators from other places in the world added to their creations.
@@ShinntokuYeah, it provides insight into a people and era different from your own and lets you know what's important to them. There's definitely overdoing cultural references or using them in less creative ways, but tis not always the case.
I watch Gintama for this exact reason, I absolutely love getting to learn all these Japanese references, gets me to learn something I didn’t before. To me, learning what something is referencing takes no time and only benefits me. For that same reason, I was especially into Like a Dragon Ishin. While gameplay wise I didn’t like it as much as the rest of the series, I really enjoyed reading about who these historical figures were, although a lot of them were also in Gintama so I’d read about them before.
@@Shinntoku Yeah, I agree. I think generally speaking, it's more a matter of how you include these cultural references. Tarantino does this very well if you think about it. When he reference's Madonna's like a virgin or Top Gun homoeroticism, you don't need to know the source material to understand what his characters are implying... because they talk about the important points. If you write a dialogue where character a tells the other "Looking more like Stallone every day!", by itself it can alienate audiences. But if character b replies: "Oh my, didn't knew you noticed my muscles..." and then back to a saying: "No, I noticed your shitty taste in tattoos" This way, you can inform the audience that Stallone is someone famous for their muscles, but also famous for some bad tattoos. Also, I think Tim comes from a place where Games are timeless. While for some gamers like me, they are. I think for the general audiences they aren't. They are dated for reasons beyond story or narrative.
Great video Tim! Still probably my favourite reference of all time is an easter egg in Skyrim referring to Katatonia, a Swedish metal band. The reference is in the form of a note found on a corpse in a dungeon, a note filled with anecdotes and ramblings of a lunatic talking about a lost City of Glass (songtitle) and the guy's name was Blakkheim (Anders from Katatonia's old stage name). It was brilliant and a delight to come across, and they did exactly what you said: it was crafted to fit in so well that you wouldn't even know a reference was being made if you didn't know the band. It just seemed like one more piece of lore and it was amazing.
Great as always, Tim. As a younger person, older media with an over reliance on cultural references seems less like art and more like a big joke that I'm not in on. The Doctor Who call box reference in Fallout flew right over my head but still I guess you do see weird stuff wandering in the nuclear desert for days on end.
The bit on tv show guest stars reminds me of modern vs old school Simpsons. Back then guest stars would play a character so if you knew who they were you'd go "Wow can't believe they got X for this" and if you didn't it didn't matter. Nowadays they just play themselves in an episode.
There is a particular reference to Elton John that your character can ramble about in Fallout 2 that really took me aback compared to anything else I've seen in that game. As much as I may like Elton John and understood the reference it was so weird to hear a tribal character to start spouting off on that particular tangent about something I imagine he'd have no real frame of reference for.
7:40 I call that the "don't pause for laughter rule". I think it's tempting to point out the fact that you made a joke so everyone "has time to laugh" at it. But playing a game is a pretty personal experience, it's notoriously harder to make someone actually laugh when they're just sitting in a room on their own. Like many other times in RPGs it's probably best to put stuff in the game but don't grab the player's face and make them look at every bit of it. Let them explore and find things naturally. I think that's the addicting part of RPGs for me.
Well the Marx brother did the "wait for the laugh" (Everyone knows there is no Sanity Clause.) in their movies but before they made the movie they had already tested the material in night clubs so they had an idea of how long to leave it hanging.
This is good advice that also generally applies to being "funny" in general. I know way too many people who think quoting and making references to media/pop culture is a substitute for making a joke or a funny comment in a social setting. It's not clever or memorable, it's lazy and forgettable. It might spark a laugh if the other person understands the reference and is not expecting it, but nobody is going to remember that years later. What people will remember is a funny moment that sprung up organically from responding cleverly or unexpectedly to a given circumstance.
Oh this brings back unpleasant memories. I used to put references in all my mods, and had to learn the hard way how badly it ages. Back in 2012 or so, when it was still really unknown, I had the incredible foresight to add Homestuck references to things I made. Anyone keeping track of internet culture over the last ten years knows how that would inevitably turn out.
If you aim to create Lovecraftian horror, and you want to add incomprehencible book which damages PC's sanity on reading - just fill it with Homestuck references.
@@vos2693 I'll write a book item that explains the entire plot of the game, but preface it with Hussie's exposition on troll romance Only the strongest of wills are worthy
Your view on references is almost identical to the Zucker Brothers formula. In that, jokes that rely on a reference for humor are cut, the jokes have to be funny on their own and reference can add another layer. It's a great way to approach comedy and, apparently, game development
Even their application wasn't always perfect. There are a number of jokes, for example, in Kentucky Fried Movie, Airplane!, and Top Secret! that were mystifying to watch for me, thirty years later; but even so, _most_ of the jokes worked even without knowing the references. One example is the coffee commercial that I'd never seen ("Jim never has a second cup of coffee at home..."), but the later repetition of the ad format in an unfitting situation was amusing regardless.
"talking about the outrage of the week won't help" - yes exactly this. The cool thing about games/fantasy/art in general... is that they can bring together people who can be divided in so many other ways. And that's a part of it being timeless as well.
The old Leisure Suit Larry games have quizzes to see if you were an adult but most questions were about "recent events". It's kind of funny because I've been old enough to play for decades but probably still couldn't answer these without looking them up. I was specifically reminded of this because some shared a an OJ Simpson question which was overshadowed by both the trial and his recent death.
I really wish game devs find your channel at some point in their careers, because your wisdom and knowledge is just invaluable. So much experience you have, it's just awe-inspiring.
3:20 I felt like this for the first time I played fallout 2. I didn't know who Dan Quayle was so I had no idea what the "Dan Bird" Enclave vice president parody was supposed to be.
The worst example I can think of was when WoW redid a lot of their old world quests for the Cataclysm expansion. In the original game there was a nice old couple in Westfall that gave you a string of quests like getting oats for their hungry horse or taking a recipe to one of their friends. You're not the "chosen one saving the world" kinds of quests but nice low drama ones that are break from the edge lord intensity. Then in Cataclysm they killed off the couple and their horse so they could have a CSI Miami style detective investigating their murders. It wasn't even a great reference at the time as a lot of people, myself included, had never even seen the show.
I still remember that, it's still one of the worst things I've ever seen in a game too. It really set the tone for Cataclysm, being so early in the game. I absolutely hated it, and was glad I never subscribed, and after that only played on WotLK private servers because of it.
I remember getting oat for the Old Blanchy but don't remember detective story, despite starting with Cata and doing those quests many times for toons. It wasn't a timeless idea.
The "You awaken in Razor Hill" questline they added in Cataclysm is worse. It's a reference to a thread on the WoW forums. People at the time weren't going to understand that reference, let alone years later!
If you ever read the book “ready player one” Jesus Christ every bloody other line directly references a video game or a piece of nerdy pop culture it’s absolutely awful
Quite literally the worst book I've ever read. Every page had me angry, and I've never been angry at a BOOK before, or since. It was so BAD. "As I made my way to the nearest bar, the avatars I passed all stopped to stare and point in my direction. I didn’t pay them much notice, because I was busy scanning the club for Art3mis. When I reached the bar, I ordered a Pan-Galactic Gargle Blaster from the female Klingon bartender and downed half of it. Then I grinned as R2 cued up another classic ’80s tune. “ ‘Union of the Snake,’ ” I recited, mostly out of habit. “Duran Duran. Nineteen eighty-three.”" Ugh. Fucking gross.
@@Xbob42 @lewischerry3552 I can't tell if you guys are serious or trolling. Making cultural references is the whole point of the book. Yeah, it also has an okay story to it, but that's not the main star of the show, so to speak. Complaining about cultural references in a book about cultural references is like complaining of fighting in a martial arts movie, or shooting and explosions in a John Woo action movie.
@@JustGrowingUp84nobody's denying that that's the intent. It's just a wretched way to interact with culture. It makes all art seem like something you need to consume simply so you understand references, rather than entire things of their own that were made to be enjoyed.
I guess they only work if they make sense thematically or they are integrated naturally into the overall story. Songs, books that speak to the characters and everything.
"Super realistic graphic" - The first thing, that came to my mind was Mortal Kombat. It looked, back in the days, just awesome. Same thing, when Unreal Tournament came out. I still remember the Games Newspaper headlining something along the lines of "Yes, that is ingame" 🤣🤣
To me the digitized graphics of Mortal Kombat (and other games utilizing the technique) always looked cheap and cheesy, especially with how it did not mesh well with the rest of the art. The same with the later wave of 3D games using photo-based textures, like Max Payne 1. Plenty of other people gobbled it up, but I always thought it looked kind of bad.
This is why there are very very few theater plays that I like. Almost all of them lean heavy on references from the 80s or 70s that go completely over my head.
It's so surreal for me that you've become a youtuber I watch on the regular, and not just because of Fallout. You really have quite the talent for communication, Tim.
The Muppets is a good example of how to do cultural references well. The show stands on its own. If you go deeper and look into the work that the guest did, you can see why they chose to sing a particular song or use a particular set.
absolutely agree. gosh, someone else said it but Borderlands is such a prime example of this. absolutely soured milk and it is quite sad. I've enjoyed smaller referenced like song names (especially older ones) such as in the Fallout series (like for quest names!) but making HUGE timely references really weighs the game down. I'm really enjoying going through your videos, Tim. there is so much to learn! :D
This explains so much :) I always enjoyed the rivalry between Gilbert Bates and Cedric Appleby in Arcanum, as its own thing. It was only later that I found out that it was a cultural reference Easter egg. And that realization only enhanced the game rather than diminished it. Arcanum did such a great job of "adding that hidden layer" that would turn something good into something even better once discovered.
Love what you said about realistic graphics. I would love to hear what you think about storage space requirements in today's world! I think it's ridiculous that some games can reach 200GB (speaking from a former resident of a rural town with a DSL connection).
You're a lot better writer than you give yourself credit for, because at least you care about issues like this. This is a good example of why it's important for people to balance creativity with self-restraint.
It's more than just the annoyance of not getting a reference, it's also that when a game is obviously winking at you it breaks immersion in the game's world and reminds you that this is a media product you're consuming, which is never good especially for an RPG.
The Fallout 1 tardis and characters talking about how they're in a game are a couple of references/easter eggs that come to mind. Just world-shattering nonsense.
@@oldylad I headcanon the tardis one as some unknown person or group doing teleportation experiments. If only one could stumble into their warehouse containing hundreds of blue phone boxes and steal or destroy the technology. Unfortunately there's nothing that can fix breaking the fourth wall.
the bridge, the knights of the holy grail, also Ma at the diner in the den does the spam spam spam sketch from flying circus but substittes 'spam' with 'rat'
At the very least, Holy Grail was already 20 years old by the time Fallout 2 came out. A lot of modern games will try to be overly current with their references which date them even faster.
Beautiful, and thank you for saying that! I was immediately reminded of the whole "Masticator" thing in Fallout 2. Back then Mike Tyson biting some guy's ear off during a boxing match was all the rage but today it's barely a footnote. Humor about current events really does age badly. I think with the long development times games that do date themselves in that way sometimes are even dated before they go gold. One thing that does worry me is that Gen Z humor is all about memes and fast moving "you had to be there" moments that mutate with successive meme so how that will translate for humor in future games is anyone's guess.
Watching old Monty Python episodes you will still get tons of the humor. But any cultural jokes, like a joke about some late 70s early 80s british parliment member, fall flat because even kids in the UK have no idea who the minister is.
This is why I much prefer Fallout 1 to F2. The setting of Fallout, the loneliness and struggle, those I could easily connect to. But since I was from the other side of the globe, all the cultural references flew over my head when playing F2. It felt exclusive and unwelcoming even back in the late 90s. F1 on the other hand felt timeless.
Absolutely - I've always said that fallout 1 is one of the tightest games I've ever played. It's entirely self contained, complete from beginning to end.
Once again I must applaud some great wisdom being shared. It's so true that people forget things and move on to the next thing so were fast and all of us looking back will remember or care about very little of what we thought was important
I miss the live-action cutscenes from 90s games. Who doesn't love watching Joseph Kucan as Kane in the Command and Conquer games? Wing Commander brought in Hollywood talent for it's whole "Top Gun in Space" vibe. The openings to Mechwarrior 4, and Mech Commander are awesome, and no one can convince me they're not. With how much more available video equipment is these days, I'm honestly surprised there aren't more games aping the live-action FMV style.
It can definitely be argued they've held up better than their CGI competitors. It's also not like they weren't called out for being cheese even back then.
I especially agree with what you said at the end. It's really about *how* the reference is implemented. In my view, as long as understanding the reference isn’t crucial to appreciating the humor in a joke or feeling the emotional impact of a scene, subtle cultural references can often enrich the overall experience. This is especially true when the reference alludes to something historical or classic. As someone with an interest in the humanities, I get excited whenever I recognize a game's literary inspirations or notice it's making some acknowledgement towards an essential thinker, novel, or work of art. It feels like a part of the game that was tailor-made for players like myself. It's harder to pull off, but I also think it's sometimes good to send players digging. When I learned that The Witcher 3: Heart of Stone DLC was basically a retelling of Goethe's Faust, I felt more awed by it. The story stood on its own merits and strong writing, but I gained a deeper appreciation when, having played through it, I learned that it was wearing its inspirations on its sleeve--even if I didn't notice at the time.
I do get that, but I think it can be done right. For instance, I just finished your game South Park: Stick of Truth (LOVED IT SO MUCH) where you can choose to get a makeover that turns your character into an actual photo of David Hasselhoff. I may have never seen a single movie David Hasselhoff was in except for The Spongebob Squarepants Movie, but just being this overly gorgeous real human person in a game full of cartoon cutout characters was insanely funny just for the absurd juxtaposition between the two alone. I didn't have to know who he was, the visual gulf between the photo and the cartoons was all the comedy needed for the joke to land and remain timeless.
Not knowing who Hasselhoff is doesn't even ruin the gag. They ask who he is and he gives his name, because some random life guard would do that as well. "I'm Michael Sanderson" "HOORAY" SpongeBob and Patrick are just happy someone wants to help
Wow Tim this was extremely insightful and very true on life as a whole. Good luck guessing what's happening now will still be talked about in 20 years!
I agree with everything you said in this video. As well, I just got sick and tired of movies and games that used references as a shortcut for doing any actual writing or for being funny. I groaned at way too much media that thought referencing something popular at the time counted as humor.
I'm replaying Fallout (1) right now and I think it does it so well. I was wearing a Leather Jacket (one sleeve off, like Mad Max's) and Dogmeat was friendly to me and followed me because of it, without anything linking it explicitly to the movie. Love it!
In Spiderman no way home they did that really well - the movie was packed with references to the older movies but it was integrated organically into the scenes, so I only noticed those I got and later found out I missed many more
I don't know, this movie feels like a pretty good execution of a Reddit thread-turned-movie script. I wonder how it would be received by someone who has never seen any Spiderman movie before
You are absolutely right about the timelessness, which is true for anything fiction. TV comedies for example. Other than 70s hair, fashion, etc. Fawlty Towers is timeless. Compare with Murphy Brown which is a sitcom that references US politicians at that specific time 80s-90s -- not timeless. Timelessness is really important for the longevity for any type of content.
Witcher 3 had one that was alright, the final fighter in the fight club is called Durden the Tailor, the guy is just a tailor and a good fighter but it's also a reference to Brad Pitt's character Tyler Durden in "Fight Club" (1999)
Reminds me of the simpsons episode that heavily featured that character from The Critic. As a younger person in the UK i had absolutely no idea who that character or what that show was, so while some of the jokes were fine on their own, most of the episode was based around this bizarre, out of place character that clearly was from *something*, but assumed i already knew about it. I'm pretty sure it didn't even air here.
This is something I had to deal with when writing for an open-world project. I feel the same way in that explicit, timed references are bad but there are still a few left in the final product. Some of the more notable ones are, however, something that most people wouldn't know of - a few veiled namedrops here and there. One of them I am quite proud of as it is divided between two location names right next to each other so you might notice it on the map if you knew what to look for. I also listen to a lot of music while working, so there are a few lyrical passages (sometimes modified to suit the intent) from across a few decades from bands or artists I appreciate. In that regard, I think there will always be something "of you" left in the game you are working on as it can't be helped, but the framing of that "content" is important, as you mentioned. Never in the forefront as your own indulgences don't necessarily serve the end product.
Tim; can I just say, how much I love your videos. I have loved video games since I was 5 years old (I’m 23 now), and to see what has happened to them and how the industry has ruined gaming has truly broken my heart. I always thought that as time went on, video games would only get bigger and better. Shit, I thought someday there’d be a fallout that spans the WHOLE COUNTRY 😂. Point is, I’ve been missing the candor, passion, love, and appreciation for the fans that you bring to the gaming community today. Thank you, Tim.
i had this when watching Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. I know about Charles Manson and the Manson Family but i had no clue who they murdered or any of the ins and outs of their crimes and what was going on with them. So the entire movie hinges on the audience knowing the details of these crimes and completely falls flat and makes no sense if you dont. There is one scene where one of the guys goes to a farm where hippies live and it builds up tension when he asks to see the owner of the farm and then eventually they let him in and the owner is just chillin inside so the guy leaves. and i was wondering if i missed anything before the scene because it was so awkward.
I'm actually a huge fan of cultural references. Even if it's a reference that I do not understand, it helps me understand the perspective of people from that time period. I can understand the perspective of seeing cultural references as dating a product but I consider putting a date on a product to be beneficial to all audiences that come in the future. I wasn't born in the '70s but I absolutely loved that 70s show and it really helped, in some ways, for me to understand the perspective of someone that grew up in the '70s. I think there are definitely some products that don't need it, but I see a lot of opportunity for it to be beneficial to use cultural references when telling a story.
Like the entire premise of Amazon's Fallout, Mr. Cain? Thanks for your work on Fallout yet again, it provided me with much entertainment as a child. Great game.
I used to think like that too. Playing a bit of devils advocate here (because i personally wouldnt add much references myself) But... (1)nothing is ever trully timeless, its always a product of its time and its a good thing they arent (2) Media and art can be used to talk about now and theres nothing inherently wrong with that, and games are no exception (3) Theres also value with things getting dated- less so as a game or brand new experience and more from a historic perspective (so we can experience a bit how things were and the mindsets X point in time)... and coming to think of it its perhaps more fitting of games to do that then films and other media- because games are immersive and escapist, so in a sense every older dated games not only transport us to another fictional world- they can also transport us in time. On that last point for example every now and then i play games that date from BEFORE i started gaming- and even the references i dont get i see value, because in a sense theyre the closest we have to a time machine; Sure books and films do that too BUT only games are interactive- so its like im reaching and interacting with the past. Btw i also feel that when i watch clips of old tv shows, from serials to talk shows or old music videos.... everything is dated- the film, the low resolution, how they speak, many "silly" (for me today) fashion choices... but thats part of their value. it becomes part of the charm too id say. I think part of where youre coming from have more to do with amount and how, like not detracting from the vision (like in fallouts random encounters), where i tottally agree. Given my preferences and creative style i would also avoid references but i can appreciate works that do otherwise- not everything have to be a perfect immersive vision, and be it humour or commentary different kinds of voices, styles etc are all valid to have around (even some bad ones). But even if im personally not that fond of then i could see myself doing that if i were making a silly comedy game depending on its style of humour When it comes to humour i think the values change too... Humour itself can achieve some timelesness but both as a concept and its role in society its almost by necessity or consequence actual to its time and about its time. In a way its a escape valve and commentary both on the contradictions of our (current) society as well as criticism. I love some talk shows and things like SNL sketches - and i dont see why games should be a special medium that shouldnt tackle some genres or subjects. I feel like they should, way more then we usually do even (i feel like as a medium games could explore more outside of its common formulas and genres) And i personallyy laugh when im watching comedy sketches from before my time, be it 80-90s SNL or Monty Python -even tough i definetly miss some of the subtext and context. Monty Python btw (wich i love) made me understand more of british culture in general and gave me some perspective on that point in time and space then i ever would otherwise. Anyway, the short of it would be amount/how i feel.
I think the worst possible reference you could make is a meme reference, both because of how rapidly memes come and go and become stale and dated, and also because of how often popular memes become kind of iffy in hindsight. Good example would be the otherwise anticapitalist borderlands 3 having a gun designed by elon musk because the game was written when he was just seen as the funny twitter guy.
@@windwaker105 Maybe it's a problem for most Americans. My school read the Inferno in conjunction with European history and the previous year study on religion/mythology supplemented it. Granted this was in 2005 so who knows what is being taught now.
I completely agree with you when it comes to cultural references in books. I'm reading a book that was written in 2016 right now and it is LITERRED with cultural references that don't necessarily feel forced in the context, but they REALLY make the book feel dated. It is not the same dated feeling as if you're reading a classic work either; it's a dated feeling that just takes me out of the story completely. Thanks for your thoughts Tim! Love the videos
This is true and something I hadn't considered. Some of my favorite games had references to things that were funny or relevant to the time, but 5+ years later they just seem dated or the public perception of that person or topic has changed since.
The part about things you care deeply about fading away is an interesting thought. Because it's really true. The only events I can think of that will definitely continue to be problems that I care deeply about are *not* things to make throw away references to. Those subjects are the kinds of things to write entire game narratives about.
7:00 As soon as you said that, I immediatly remembered the Command & Conquer games. I used to love them as a kid but seeing them as an adult now I'm like "wow, that's so corny and ridiculous". In a way, I kind of like that too because it's such a 90s/early 2000s staple. Kinda like what made those things magic at the time.
Max Payne 2 features my favourite veiled reference. In the Club Vodka level (formerly Club Ragnarock from the first game) you see an interaction between the characters of Vladimir Lem and Vinnie Gognitti. So they're shooting at each other and they hear police sirens in the distance to which Vladimir Lem yells out at Vinnie "You hear that? They're coming to take you away!" This is of course a reference to that song "They're coming to take me away." However inside the world of Max Payne 2 there's a famous TV show called Address Unknown that also uses that line. And here's where it gets fun. In the first Max Payne it is established that Lem likes quoting pop culture, even relishes in it (Vlad quotes The Godfather at Max). So in the sequel he quotes a line from an in-universe TV show at his enemy as a jab. Even if you do not know the song, you can connect the line with the in-game tv show and if you know the song - then it just adds another layer to the whole thing.
I remember how I was confused, when I encountered crashed whale in the Fallout 1 wasteland. Or TARDIS. Or Red Ryder BB gun. I was only able to understand that when internet become available.
This is such a good point. There's really only one counter I can think of and it's musicals. Either where an artists' catalog is woven into the work (Across the Universe, Mamma Mia!), music is picked and adapted into a narrative (Moulin Rouge), or something where music references are in the world's naming conventions (Eureka Seven, FLCL). I guess it would work for other types of art, like a movie that looks like a Van Gogh painting or something. Like, if the references aren't core to the story, I think you're right to suggest skipping them. Helldivers' many homages to Star Wars, Halo, and Starship Troopers are subtle and mostly appreciated without being distracting, even if their publisher's business practices are not. 😂 Excellent Tim Talk!
That's EXACTLY why as I director I ban Memes in our games. Unless it's something extremely hidden away and hard to find, if it's in the story, dialogue or anything else that it's easy for the player to see then it's banned. I learned this from Disney really, reading some of the older Disney animators talk about 90's Disney Movies and why they hate them, movies like Alladdin or Hercules have so many jokes that pertain to THAT time period that dates that movies A LOT, meanwhile Pinocchio or other of the Golden Era classics don't do this because they were trying to create timeless pieces.
The placement of cultural references is far more important to me than their presence. In Fallout, you can obtain records from the Mariposa Military Base that document Roger Maxson founding the Brotherhood of Steel and Richard Grey's transformation into the Master. Both of these logs are played absolutely 100% straight. There is plenty of dark humor in Fallout, but there seemed to be awareness on the part of the designers that some things are about sincere world building, not going for a cheap laugh. In Fallout 2, you arrive at the Enclave Oil Rig expecting grand revelations about the shadowy enemy you've been seeing across the wasteland but about which you know very little. And you do get some of that...but you also get a bunch of Monica Lewinsky and Dan Quayle jokes. Not only have those jokes aged extremely poorly (I wonder how many younger players in 2024 would even know who Monica Lewisnky and Dan Quayle are?), they take you out of the world. If the designers can't take their own setting seriously, even in what should be the most dramatic places in the game, why should I? I'm glad New Vegas was much better about this, and I'm glad Wild Wasteland was optional.
There's a old (1941) Merrie Melodies cartoon called Hollywood Steps Out that is super dated but basically became a time capsule. I remember watching it as a kid in the 90s and only recognizing a couple of the stars depicted in it and maybe one or two jokes. The jokes I got where basically ones that where in a bunch of other media and referenced beyond the 40s. What I find most interesting about that cartoon is at one point Cartoon Network or some company later made a edit of the episode and titled all the characters shown so a modern viewer might be able to look up the characters to have a understanding of who they were.
Well made games with lots of references do often seem to follow that rule of references that won't be noticed if not understood -- if you find the "Deathclaw" in Exiled Kingdoms, it still sounds like a cool name the type of item it is even if you don't know the reference.
I love cultural references. Especially the ones I don't get. For example, I remember when back in the day I was watching episodes of The Simpsons and after I was done with each one, I used to check the Wikipedia article about it to read all the production notes and cultural references. This made me find out about interesting people and events that I guess I never would have found out in another way. So I personally LOVE cultural references, because they further my understanding of history and culture itself.
I... can kind of sympathise? There is one game that I truly love for its cultural references, and that's Kingdom of Loathing. Hell, another game made by them, West of Loathing, is a western/cowboy themed game where the graphical settings are "Good", "Bad", and "Ugly", which still makes me laugh to this day.
YES! And THANK YOU! I wholeheartely agree with you there. And I also hate, hate, hate so much cultural references. And not just because they time your game/movie/series/book, but also because they take me right out of that fictional space that I am (hopefully) immersed on. And I hate it because I'm taken out because someone wanted to do a wink-wink, nudge-nudge at me.
Strongly agree! I would love to slip in a ton of subtle references, but for me, they have to maintain the immersion of the experience. Like... one game I want to make is in a similar kind of setting to Arcanum (which I didn't even hear about until after I wanted to make a setting like that, so that's definitely on my to-play list now as a way of getting some inspiration!). I don't want to do the Simpsons thing of just throwing a bunch of references to things from that time period in the game willy-nilly. I want them to mean something within the game lore and, if people get the references, great! If they don't, their immersion isn't broken or left wanting for not knowing where something came from.
If I was ever designing a game, I would have a limit of 10 references, have them in appropriate places for the player to find & I'd reference things I personally love or things that inspired me to design the game in the first place.
Granted, I didn't have time to watch the full video because im in between things atm and just checked yt really quick for a small break, so excuse me if this is not adressed later on, but I still like to contribute to the conversation because i find the topic very interesting. I do understand your point, (up to 4 minutes), and i do agree to an extend that certain games/movies/shows/books with certain themes or tones do not lend themselves to cultural references at all, i don't think they are entirely out of place everywhere, and i don't think that its a bad thing overall. Especially in the given example of tv shows, moments that come to mind are those "actor enters scene, scene stops and plays a 'woooooooooo' audience reaction sound bit" thing: I think they can be neat. Of course, making your media timeless is harder to achive this way, but i personally rhink of it more of a design decision in which both approaches are fine. Art can be culturally relevant in the moment, and speak to its audience right here and now, and be very great because of it. Art in general, can absolutely speak to a specific audience in a specific way, if that is the designers intend. I personally have seen things that i just didn't understand because im not american, or im too young, or just not part of a cultural bubble, but understood that someone somewhere probably got a little kick out of this, because i have also been someone somewhere who did a little clap because something was referenced in a clever way. Art can both aim to be timeless, as well as aim to appeal to a zeitgeist, and both design decisions are as valid as the other. If the medium stands firmly on its own otherwise, it can absolutely be referential to pop culture, or just the pop culture that specifically influenced it (alan wake 1 and 2 HEAVILY do this and are better games because of it. akot of their charme derives from references and self references) Being relevant to a specific audience, or in a specific time, can be beautiful. You can speak to a certain group of people, in a certain time, and reach them directly. weave a small sense of home, or a sense of belonging into the art, and connect culturally adjacent groups. And of course, it can also serve as a great time capsule, both as a nostalgia piece for people who lived the time, or as a way to immerse themselves in a time they have not been a part of. This quality also should not be overlooked in my humble opinion. alright, I'll close this now because i gotta keep going, and if i remember i will watch the rest of the video in due time. I knew this comment was gonna be a long one so i sacrificed watching the second half of the video, just to get this out.I hope everyone is having a great day, and I hope this may spark some conversation between either camp. Mayhaps someone can comment in a couple hours from now to give me a small notification, so I can watch the rest. See yall!
during the Portal GDC talk the devs mentioned that Valve has a policy, cultural reference jokes need to be funny on their own even if you don't know the reference. it's a great philosophy to keep games timeless.
I'm reminded of all the cultural references in classic Looney Tunes cartoons. The vast majority go completely over everyone's heads here, 80 years later, or you react like "that must've been a cultural reference to something back in those days", but the cartoons are still funny regardless.
I think Borderlands 2 is a great example of a wonderful game that really jumped the shark with dated internet references that seem quite bizarre over a decade later.
Yeah. That said the writing there overall is infinitely better than borderlands 3
Idk, I played again a little while ago and found the dated humor charming
@@John-uw2je Yea BL3 was dated before it came out. I hated the "streamer/influencer" vibe and everything was constantly screaming and flashing bright colors at you all the time.
@@tbprodutions That sounds like nostalgia talking. Imagine playing it and not understanding all the dated references.
They were awful the year they came out and pretty lazy. Oh wow, it's actually just a creeper. You put a creeper in your game cause minecraft. Hilarious?
I'm reminded of the quiz in Liesure Suit Larry with "adult" questions that are supposed to ensure kids don't play. Today, that quiz will instead filter out most adults, and the only ones who will get through are retirement age folks.
That game is anthropology at this point 😂
Oh yeah isn’t there a question about OJ on there? Hehehe
It also had questions that were hard for non Americans.
Luckily you can skip those.
Nothing breaks my immersion like a video game character making a pop culture reference out of nowhere
Hahaha. I agree.
Completely agree with your rule on reference subtlety. Not only is said reference more likely to do what you described, but will also likely land much harder for the people that _do_ get it since the writer isn't effectively screaming "CURRENT TOPICAL SUBJECT!" in the audience's face.
This reminded me of the fnv book burning robot, When I first played it I had never read 1984 or Fahrenheit 451, but the satire of an oppressive government asking me to destroy 'propaganda' wasn't lost as the concept of book burning for a government regime wasn't exclusive to 1984. I will say though, replaying fnv years later it was even funnier.
I never understood a lot of the pop culture references in Fallout 2 because a lot of the media from USA was not available in my country. So whenever there was a pop culture encounter, I would either a.) not know it's a pop culture reference and just think that this was something that was actually part of the story of Fallout 2. OR b.) I would kinda know it was a pop culture reference but I would just be like "huh, okay..." and just continue on with quests.
Your comment points out to something I also feel about cultural references: They are sometimes borderline plagiarism.
X-Men 97 had one scene that is a "cultural reference" to Zack Snyder's Man of Steel, almost shot by shot, very similar.
Where it's just a reference, a homage, and where it does become plagiarism?
If we watch it and we didn't knew it was a homage, and ended up being amazed by how cool that scene was... Wasn't it plagiarism then?
@@Illusionaire1 The bar for plagiarism is much, much higher.
@@Illusionaire1 Tarantino got some (IMO well-deserved) flak for that with Kill Bill. Especially if you're a big presence and "homage" something that is much lesser known, that can definitely tread the line.
I was both to young and not in America, I think they all went over my head as a kid.
I seriously hated how they were implemented in F2. NPCs randomly saying "these aren't the droids you're looking for" with no context or connection to the world at all
The best guest stars on TV shows was on Police Squad, where the guest star would die randomly during their introduction
Man, Police Squad! was great.
I don't know how I feel about the reboot (remake?).
It’s funny you mention the wild wasteland perk in Fallout NV, because that’s the one that made me think of your rule. The bit in Old World Blues when the skeleton suit guys say “Hey who turned out the lights?” is a great Doctor Who nod that most people wouldn’t think twice about.
I love the Gremlins reference in Old World Blues especially since the devs went the extra step to program the deathclaw to avoid the water fountain because that's where Stripe died in the movie.
That line was used in many things not just Doctor Who
@@SiriusMinedYeah but a skeleton in a spacesuit saying the exact line is pretty clear cut lmao
I took wild wasteland and most of the references flew over my head. It was fun to look them up or see the ones I did get though
@@phoenixvance6642 That's something that can be fun with references, is jumping down a rabbit hole and learning about them.
Tim's 2 biggest pet peeves: cultural references and sarcastic characters
Well excuse me Princess!
@@MaskedImposterhaha
@@THEEJONESYexplain yourself
@@Loquacious_Jackson zelda tv show quote, you wouldn't understand
@@THEEJONESY sounds gay
Locked in time: try playing the original Leisure Suit Larry, and trying to pass the age check at the beginning ... you must be like 60 now to know some of those answers.
Wow what a blast from the past.
If you've got a story about a group of elves fighting against dragons to secure their kingdom, the worst thing you could ever do is have the elves yelling "elf lives matter" and the dragons responding "make dragons great again"
Rings of Power be like.
someone somewhere is aggressively scribbling that down in their next screenplay
Yeah but if it was a satirical piece of work, that would be fine
_fiery but mostly peaceful elf protest_
In assassins creed odyssey, the rival of pericles yelles “make athens great again”. It was horrible.
Finding the tardis in the desert was a relief from how scary Fallout was for my 11 year old self lol
I had no idea what a Tardis was.
@@yamchadragonball6983 Being an Aussie, I had no idea that the Red Ryder BB Gun was a reference to anything. It was just this odd useless seeming gun that I always ignored. After marrying an American I was exposed to A Christmas Story and went 'Oh, thats pretty funny as long as you're aware of that one film thats beloved by a completely different culture to mine'. So I suppose it worked in the way that Tim describes it for folks that don't get the references.
@@yamchadragonball6983it’s a Time Machine from the tv show Doctor Who. If you like sci-fi and British people check it out. However. Make sure you check which seasons are good and which seasons are awful.
The Elvis Picture in F1 mad me mad at the time..... i thought about it`s purporse for YEARS! It was so unique i thought there MUST be a secret reason. Something i could do with it.
In Fallout 2 its a hidden map to Vault 13
My grandma had one of those exact fuzzy Elvis paintings at her house, so it always confused me for that reason.
One thing in Fallout 2 is that the Vice President Daniel Bird is a reference to Dan Quayle, HW Bush's VP. I wasn't alive when Bush Sr. was President, so the reference went way over my head. Also riffing on weird things a Vice President said is such a deep reference that requires a lot of knowledge to even get it. I guess it works to show that Bird isn't all there but I know nothing about Quayle to know if he was like that irl
But even if you don't know the reference, his lines are still funny. Works perfectly well. Many bits and jokes in Naked Gun and other Zuckers' movies are like that.
similarly, the secretary that was obviously monica lewinsky
IIRC most of Daniel Bird's lines are near verbatim quotes from Quayle. I thought it was distracting and weird even when I knew what they were referencing.
“potatoe”
@@lhfirex Yeah, I felt like that guy was just there for some obscure jokes for limited audience(which it was). I never checked his Wiki page to understand it, I just ignored him.
A great example of a song using references that don’t age well is actually the song ‘Anything Goes’ which was used in the Fallout 4 radio.
The song is pretty much entirely references to scandals that happened around 1934, so now, 90 years later, nobody knows who any of these people are or what they did.
That's an interesting one. The lyrics are dated, but seeing current events as signs of societal downfall has happened for thousands of years. The tune is so good that the song outlasted the relevance of its lyrics
If anything, the fact its now extremely dated ADDS to its overall point
That song is from the Fallout 3 radio first.
2:11 that also happens with international audiences. My experience as a non-US national is I often have no clue what/who is being referenced despite knowing a lot of US culture. For US folk: Imagine if Zelda started referecing "famous" Japanese celebrities/politicians 😅.
I mean, I'd love that tbh. I really enjoy looking into what fun references and nods that creators from other places in the world added to their creations.
@@ShinntokuYeah, it provides insight into a people and era different from your own and lets you know what's important to them. There's definitely overdoing cultural references or using them in less creative ways, but tis not always the case.
I watch Gintama for this exact reason, I absolutely love getting to learn all these Japanese references, gets me to learn something I didn’t before. To me, learning what something is referencing takes no time and only benefits me. For that same reason, I was especially into Like a Dragon Ishin. While gameplay wise I didn’t like it as much as the rest of the series, I really enjoyed reading about who these historical figures were, although a lot of them were also in Gintama so I’d read about them before.
@@Shinntoku Yeah, I agree.
I think generally speaking, it's more a matter of how you include these cultural references. Tarantino does this very well if you think about it.
When he reference's Madonna's like a virgin or Top Gun homoeroticism, you don't need to know the source material to understand what his characters are implying... because they talk about the important points.
If you write a dialogue where character a tells the other "Looking more like Stallone every day!", by itself it can alienate audiences. But if character b replies: "Oh my, didn't knew you noticed my muscles..." and then back to a saying: "No, I noticed your shitty taste in tattoos"
This way, you can inform the audience that Stallone is someone famous for their muscles, but also famous for some bad tattoos.
Also, I think Tim comes from a place where Games are timeless. While for some gamers like me, they are. I think for the general audiences they aren't. They are dated for reasons beyond story or narrative.
They learned their lesson with the Pokemon Jynx
Great video Tim! Still probably my favourite reference of all time is an easter egg in Skyrim referring to Katatonia, a Swedish metal band. The reference is in the form of a note found on a corpse in a dungeon, a note filled with anecdotes and ramblings of a lunatic talking about a lost City of Glass (songtitle) and the guy's name was Blakkheim (Anders from Katatonia's old stage name). It was brilliant and a delight to come across, and they did exactly what you said: it was crafted to fit in so well that you wouldn't even know a reference was being made if you didn't know the band. It just seemed like one more piece of lore and it was amazing.
As someone quickly approaching 40, I fully agree with you except I am certain I will still be thinking about "that bear cutscene" in 10 years.
core memory
Great as always, Tim. As a younger person, older media with an over reliance on cultural references seems less like art and more like a big joke that I'm not in on. The Doctor Who call box reference in Fallout flew right over my head but still I guess you do see weird stuff wandering in the nuclear desert for days on end.
The bit on tv show guest stars reminds me of modern vs old school Simpsons. Back then guest stars would play a character so if you knew who they were you'd go "Wow can't believe they got X for this" and if you didn't it didn't matter. Nowadays they just play themselves in an episode.
There is a particular reference to Elton John that your character can ramble about in Fallout 2 that really took me aback compared to anything else I've seen in that game. As much as I may like Elton John and understood the reference it was so weird to hear a tribal character to start spouting off on that particular tangent about something I imagine he'd have no real frame of reference for.
And the Rocketman joke was used more than once in the game, like bro, ok I get it. But it is not as funny as you think.
The Chosen One can reference Silence of the Lambs too, which was quite... jarring.
7:40 I call that the "don't pause for laughter rule". I think it's tempting to point out the fact that you made a joke so everyone "has time to laugh" at it. But playing a game is a pretty personal experience, it's notoriously harder to make someone actually laugh when they're just sitting in a room on their own. Like many other times in RPGs it's probably best to put stuff in the game but don't grab the player's face and make them look at every bit of it. Let them explore and find things naturally. I think that's the addicting part of RPGs for me.
Well the Marx brother did the "wait for the laugh" (Everyone knows there is no Sanity Clause.) in their movies but before they made the movie they had already tested the material in night clubs so they had an idea of how long to leave it hanging.
This is good advice that also generally applies to being "funny" in general. I know way too many people who think quoting and making references to media/pop culture is a substitute for making a joke or a funny comment in a social setting. It's not clever or memorable, it's lazy and forgettable. It might spark a laugh if the other person understands the reference and is not expecting it, but nobody is going to remember that years later. What people will remember is a funny moment that sprung up organically from responding cleverly or unexpectedly to a given circumstance.
Oh this brings back unpleasant memories. I used to put references in all my mods, and had to learn the hard way how badly it ages.
Back in 2012 or so, when it was still really unknown, I had the incredible foresight to add Homestuck references to things I made. Anyone keeping track of internet culture over the last ten years knows how that would inevitably turn out.
If you aim to create Lovecraftian horror, and you want to add incomprehencible book which damages PC's sanity on reading - just fill it with Homestuck references.
@@vos2693 I'll write a book item that explains the entire plot of the game, but preface it with Hussie's exposition on troll romance
Only the strongest of wills are worthy
I just finished my 6° playthrough of Fallout. Thanks, Tim.
Your view on references is almost identical to the Zucker Brothers formula. In that, jokes that rely on a reference for humor are cut, the jokes have to be funny on their own and reference can add another layer. It's a great way to approach comedy and, apparently, game development
Even their application wasn't always perfect. There are a number of jokes, for example, in Kentucky Fried Movie, Airplane!, and Top Secret! that were mystifying to watch for me, thirty years later; but even so, _most_ of the jokes worked even without knowing the references.
One example is the coffee commercial that I'd never seen ("Jim never has a second cup of coffee at home..."), but the later repetition of the ad format in an unfitting situation was amusing regardless.
That rule about making references invisible has stuck with me ever since you said it in your Fallout Post Mortem.
"talking about the outrage of the week won't help" - yes exactly this. The cool thing about games/fantasy/art in general... is that they can bring together people who can be divided in so many other ways. And that's a part of it being timeless as well.
The old Leisure Suit Larry games have quizzes to see if you were an adult but most questions were about "recent events". It's kind of funny because I've been old enough to play for decades but probably still couldn't answer these without looking them up. I was specifically reminded of this because some shared a an OJ Simpson question which was overshadowed by both the trial and his recent death.
As a non-American I never could get them. I also played LSL1 when I was way too young for it. Luckily you could always skip them.
I really wish game devs find your channel at some point in their careers, because your wisdom and knowledge is just invaluable. So much experience you have, it's just awe-inspiring.
the main and overarching problem with these is they are often superficial and dumb, while the person making them is completely unaware of that.
Gex is Tim Cain's greatest enemy
At least we know who can save if the Archlich of Pop Culture come back to life.
3:20 I felt like this for the first time I played fallout 2. I didn't know who Dan Quayle was so I had no idea what the "Dan Bird" Enclave vice president parody was supposed to be.
I had pretty much the same experience when I played fallout 2. After I heard there were a bunch of references in the game I was very confused.
You should have played Civilization too. ;)
idk I kinda find it educational. It's fun, to me atleast, to find out this moronic vice president was a real person 😂
The worst example I can think of was when WoW redid a lot of their old world quests for the Cataclysm expansion. In the original game there was a nice old couple in Westfall that gave you a string of quests like getting oats for their hungry horse or taking a recipe to one of their friends. You're not the "chosen one saving the world" kinds of quests but nice low drama ones that are break from the edge lord intensity. Then in Cataclysm they killed off the couple and their horse so they could have a CSI Miami style detective investigating their murders. It wasn't even a great reference at the time as a lot of people, myself included, had never even seen the show.
I still remember that, it's still one of the worst things I've ever seen in a game too. It really set the tone for Cataclysm, being so early in the game. I absolutely hated it, and was glad I never subscribed, and after that only played on WotLK private servers because of it.
I remember getting oat for the Old Blanchy but don't remember detective story, despite starting with Cata and doing those quests many times for toons. It wasn't a timeless idea.
Cataclysm was an absolute fever dream the whole way through.
The "You awaken in Razor Hill" questline they added in Cataclysm is worse. It's a reference to a thread on the WoW forums. People at the time weren't going to understand that reference, let alone years later!
Cataclysm was such a dumpster fire
If you ever read the book “ready player one” Jesus Christ every bloody other line directly references a video game or a piece of nerdy pop culture it’s absolutely awful
To be fair that whole book is games. You really can’t have it be timeless.
@@clef6434 I agree sure, but the amount it does it is ridiculous, it makes the book almost unreadable.
Quite literally the worst book I've ever read. Every page had me angry, and I've never been angry at a BOOK before, or since. It was so BAD.
"As I made my way to the nearest bar, the avatars I passed all stopped to stare and point in my direction. I didn’t pay them much notice, because I was busy scanning the club for Art3mis.
When I reached the bar, I ordered a Pan-Galactic Gargle Blaster from the female Klingon bartender and downed half of it. Then I grinned as R2 cued up another classic ’80s tune. “ ‘Union of the Snake,’ ” I recited, mostly out of habit. “Duran Duran. Nineteen eighty-three.”"
Ugh. Fucking gross.
@@Xbob42 @lewischerry3552
I can't tell if you guys are serious or trolling.
Making cultural references is the whole point of the book.
Yeah, it also has an okay story to it, but that's not the main star of the show, so to speak.
Complaining about cultural references in a book about cultural references is like complaining of fighting in a martial arts movie, or shooting and explosions in a John Woo action movie.
@@JustGrowingUp84nobody's denying that that's the intent. It's just a wretched way to interact with culture. It makes all art seem like something you need to consume simply so you understand references, rather than entire things of their own that were made to be enjoyed.
I guess they only work if they make sense thematically or they are integrated naturally into the overall story. Songs, books that speak to the characters and everything.
"Super realistic graphic" - The first thing, that came to my mind was Mortal Kombat. It looked, back in the days, just awesome. Same thing, when Unreal Tournament came out. I still remember the Games Newspaper headlining something along the lines of "Yes, that is ingame" 🤣🤣
To me the digitized graphics of Mortal Kombat (and other games utilizing the technique) always looked cheap and cheesy, especially with how it did not mesh well with the rest of the art.
The same with the later wave of 3D games using photo-based textures, like Max Payne 1. Plenty of other people gobbled it up, but I always thought it looked kind of bad.
This is why there are very very few theater plays that I like. Almost all of them lean heavy on references from the 80s or 70s that go completely over my head.
It's so surreal for me that you've become a youtuber I watch on the regular, and not just because of Fallout. You really have quite the talent for communication, Tim.
The Muppets is a good example of how to do cultural references well. The show stands on its own. If you go deeper and look into the work that the guest did, you can see why they chose to sing a particular song or use a particular set.
absolutely agree. gosh, someone else said it but Borderlands is such a prime example of this. absolutely soured milk and it is quite sad. I've enjoyed smaller referenced like song names (especially older ones) such as in the Fallout series (like for quest names!) but making HUGE timely references really weighs the game down. I'm really enjoying going through your videos, Tim. there is so much to learn! :D
This makes me think of the first Iron Man movie and Tony Stark referencing my space.
This explains so much :) I always enjoyed the rivalry between Gilbert Bates and Cedric Appleby in Arcanum, as its own thing. It was only later that I found out that it was a cultural reference Easter egg. And that realization only enhanced the game rather than diminished it. Arcanum did such a great job of "adding that hidden layer" that would turn something good into something even better once discovered.
Love what you said about realistic graphics. I would love to hear what you think about storage space requirements in today's world!
I think it's ridiculous that some games can reach 200GB (speaking from a former resident of a rural town with a DSL connection).
You're a lot better writer than you give yourself credit for, because at least you care about issues like this. This is a good example of why it's important for people to balance creativity with self-restraint.
Not the cutscene with the bear ToT. great video as always :)
You just get it.
I can't wait to (hopefully) experience another one of your stories.
It's more than just the annoyance of not getting a reference, it's also that when a game is obviously winking at you it breaks immersion in the game's world and reminds you that this is a media product you're consuming, which is never good especially for an RPG.
100% this
The Fallout 1 tardis and characters talking about how they're in a game are a couple of references/easter eggs that come to mind. Just world-shattering nonsense.
@@BradTheAmericanthey’re so outlandish and rare that they’re ok imo, you KNOW they’re just little references and they don’t bother me
@@oldylad I headcanon the tardis one as some unknown person or group doing teleportation experiments. If only one could stumble into their warehouse containing hundreds of blue phone boxes and steal or destroy the technology. Unfortunately there's nothing that can fix breaking the fourth wall.
Fallout 2 was obsessed with their Monty Phyton references, 2 in the base game and 1 cut one off the top of my head.
the bridge, the knights of the holy grail, also Ma at the diner in the den does the spam spam spam sketch from flying circus but substittes 'spam' with 'rat'
At the very least, Holy Grail was already 20 years old by the time Fallout 2 came out. A lot of modern games will try to be overly current with their references which date them even faster.
Most Monty Python stuff is pretty timeless itself though
I'm currently binging all of your videos and I would say that, yeah, they are timeless
Oh yeah,
the cut-scene with the bear,
I get it!
Only thing I understood of the video.
(LOL! Just joking)
Thanks for your videos!
Beautiful, and thank you for saying that! I was immediately reminded of the whole "Masticator" thing in Fallout 2. Back then Mike Tyson biting some guy's ear off during a boxing match was all the rage but today it's barely a footnote. Humor about current events really does age badly. I think with the long development times games that do date themselves in that way sometimes are even dated before they go gold. One thing that does worry me is that Gen Z humor is all about memes and fast moving "you had to be there" moments that mutate with successive meme so how that will translate for humor in future games is anyone's guess.
I remember playing a game from 2021 that makes some covid jokes… was super unfunny and dated.
Watching old Monty Python episodes you will still get tons of the humor. But any cultural jokes, like a joke about some late 70s early 80s british parliment member, fall flat because even kids in the UK have no idea who the minister is.
making references to the timeless humour can date the product however, or zero it in on a specific subculture
GTA series is basically a time capsule
This is why I much prefer Fallout 1 to F2. The setting of Fallout, the loneliness and struggle, those I could easily connect to. But since I was from the other side of the globe, all the cultural references flew over my head when playing F2. It felt exclusive and unwelcoming even back in the late 90s. F1 on the other hand felt timeless.
Absolutely - I've always said that fallout 1 is one of the tightest games I've ever played. It's entirely self contained, complete from beginning to end.
Once again I must applaud some great wisdom being shared. It's so true that people forget things and move on to the next thing so were fast and all of us looking back will remember or care about very little of what we thought was important
I miss the live-action cutscenes from 90s games. Who doesn't love watching Joseph Kucan as Kane in the Command and Conquer games? Wing Commander brought in Hollywood talent for it's whole "Top Gun in Space" vibe. The openings to Mechwarrior 4, and Mech Commander are awesome, and no one can convince me they're not.
With how much more available video equipment is these days, I'm honestly surprised there aren't more games aping the live-action FMV style.
It can definitely be argued they've held up better than their CGI competitors. It's also not like they weren't called out for being cheese even back then.
I especially agree with what you said at the end. It's really about *how* the reference is implemented. In my view, as long as understanding the reference isn’t crucial to appreciating the humor in a joke or feeling the emotional impact of a scene, subtle cultural references can often enrich the overall experience. This is especially true when the reference alludes to something historical or classic. As someone with an interest in the humanities, I get excited whenever I recognize a game's literary inspirations or notice it's making some acknowledgement towards an essential thinker, novel, or work of art. It feels like a part of the game that was tailor-made for players like myself.
It's harder to pull off, but I also think it's sometimes good to send players digging. When I learned that The Witcher 3: Heart of Stone DLC was basically a retelling of Goethe's Faust, I felt more awed by it. The story stood on its own merits and strong writing, but I gained a deeper appreciation when, having played through it, I learned that it was wearing its inspirations on its sleeve--even if I didn't notice at the time.
I do get that, but I think it can be done right. For instance, I just finished your game South Park: Stick of Truth (LOVED IT SO MUCH) where you can choose to get a makeover that turns your character into an actual photo of David Hasselhoff. I may have never seen a single movie David Hasselhoff was in except for The Spongebob Squarepants Movie, but just being this overly gorgeous real human person in a game full of cartoon cutout characters was insanely funny just for the absurd juxtaposition between the two alone. I didn't have to know who he was, the visual gulf between the photo and the cartoons was all the comedy needed for the joke to land and remain timeless.
Not knowing who Hasselhoff is doesn't even ruin the gag. They ask who he is and he gives his name, because some random life guard would do that as well.
"I'm Michael Sanderson"
"HOORAY"
SpongeBob and Patrick are just happy someone wants to help
Wow Tim this was extremely insightful and very true on life as a whole. Good luck guessing what's happening now will still be talked about in 20 years!
I agree with everything you said in this video. As well, I just got sick and tired of movies and games that used references as a shortcut for doing any actual writing or for being funny. I groaned at way too much media that thought referencing something popular at the time counted as humor.
I'm replaying Fallout (1) right now and I think it does it so well. I was wearing a Leather Jacket (one sleeve off, like Mad Max's) and Dogmeat was friendly to me and followed me because of it, without anything linking it explicitly to the movie. Love it!
OG Fallouts do often work by the formula you presented in the end.
In Spiderman no way home they did that really well - the movie was packed with references to the older movies but it was integrated organically into the scenes, so I only noticed those I got and later found out I missed many more
I disagree. Too much reference to current meme culture will make that movie unwatchable in close future.
@@PimpofChaos Fair enough
I don't know, this movie feels like a pretty good execution of a Reddit thread-turned-movie script. I wonder how it would be received by someone who has never seen any Spiderman movie before
You are absolutely right about the timelessness, which is true for anything fiction. TV comedies for example. Other than 70s hair, fashion, etc. Fawlty Towers is timeless. Compare with Murphy Brown which is a sitcom that references US politicians at that specific time 80s-90s -- not timeless. Timelessness is really important for the longevity for any type of content.
Fawlty Towers have aged incredibly bad.
Witcher 3 had one that was alright, the final fighter in the fight club is called Durden the Tailor, the guy is just a tailor and a good fighter but it's also a reference to Brad Pitt's character Tyler Durden in "Fight Club" (1999)
Cultural Reference... The Game
Wait a minute. That's Trivial Pursuit.
I was drugged and left in Mexico, and all I got was this lousy t-shirt
Reminds me of the simpsons episode that heavily featured that character from The Critic. As a younger person in the UK i had absolutely no idea who that character or what that show was, so while some of the jokes were fine on their own, most of the episode was based around this bizarre, out of place character that clearly was from *something*, but assumed i already knew about it. I'm pretty sure it didn't even air here.
This is something I had to deal with when writing for an open-world project. I feel the same way in that explicit, timed references are bad but there are still a few left in the final product. Some of the more notable ones are, however, something that most people wouldn't know of - a few veiled namedrops here and there. One of them I am quite proud of as it is divided between two location names right next to each other so you might notice it on the map if you knew what to look for. I also listen to a lot of music while working, so there are a few lyrical passages (sometimes modified to suit the intent) from across a few decades from bands or artists I appreciate. In that regard, I think there will always be something "of you" left in the game you are working on as it can't be helped, but the framing of that "content" is important, as you mentioned. Never in the forefront as your own indulgences don't necessarily serve the end product.
Tim; can I just say, how much I love your videos. I have loved video games since I was 5 years old (I’m 23 now), and to see what has happened to them and how the industry has ruined gaming has truly broken my heart. I always thought that as time went on, video games would only get bigger and better. Shit, I thought someday there’d be a fallout that spans the WHOLE COUNTRY 😂. Point is, I’ve been missing the candor, passion, love, and appreciation for the fans that you bring to the gaming community today. Thank you, Tim.
i had this when watching Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. I know about Charles Manson and the Manson Family but i had no clue who they murdered or any of the ins and outs of their crimes and what was going on with them. So the entire movie hinges on the audience knowing the details of these crimes and completely falls flat and makes no sense if you dont. There is one scene where one of the guys goes to a farm where hippies live and it builds up tension when he asks to see the owner of the farm and then eventually they let him in and the owner is just chillin inside so the guy leaves. and i was wondering if i missed anything before the scene because it was so awkward.
I'm actually a huge fan of cultural references. Even if it's a reference that I do not understand, it helps me understand the perspective of people from that time period. I can understand the perspective of seeing cultural references as dating a product but I consider putting a date on a product to be beneficial to all audiences that come in the future. I wasn't born in the '70s but I absolutely loved that 70s show and it really helped, in some ways, for me to understand the perspective of someone that grew up in the '70s. I think there are definitely some products that don't need it, but I see a lot of opportunity for it to be beneficial to use cultural references when telling a story.
Like the entire premise of Amazon's Fallout, Mr. Cain? Thanks for your work on Fallout yet again, it provided me with much entertainment as a child. Great game.
I used to think like that too. Playing a bit of devils advocate here (because i personally wouldnt add much references myself) But...
(1)nothing is ever trully timeless, its always a product of its time and its a good thing they arent (2) Media and art can be used to talk about now and theres nothing inherently wrong with that, and games are no exception (3) Theres also value with things getting dated- less so as a game or brand new experience and more from a historic perspective (so we can experience a bit how things were and the mindsets X point in time)... and coming to think of it its perhaps more fitting of games to do that then films and other media- because games are immersive and escapist, so in a sense every older dated games not only transport us to another fictional world- they can also transport us in time.
On that last point for example every now and then i play games that date from BEFORE i started gaming- and even the references i dont get i see value, because in a sense theyre the closest we have to a time machine; Sure books and films do that too BUT only games are interactive- so its like im reaching and interacting with the past. Btw i also feel that when i watch clips of old tv shows, from serials to talk shows or old music videos.... everything is dated- the film, the low resolution, how they speak, many "silly" (for me today) fashion choices... but thats part of their value.
it becomes part of the charm too id say.
I think part of where youre coming from have more to do with amount and how, like not detracting from the vision (like in fallouts random encounters), where i tottally agree. Given my preferences and creative style i would also avoid references but i can appreciate works that do otherwise- not everything have to be a perfect immersive vision, and be it humour or commentary different kinds of voices, styles etc are all valid to have around (even some bad ones). But even if im personally not that fond of then i could see myself doing that if i were making a silly comedy game depending on its style of humour
When it comes to humour i think the values change too... Humour itself can achieve some timelesness but both as a concept and its role in society its almost by necessity or consequence actual to its time and about its time. In a way its a escape valve and commentary both on the contradictions of our (current) society as well as criticism. I love some talk shows and things like SNL sketches - and i dont see why games should be a special medium that shouldnt tackle some genres or subjects. I feel like they should, way more then we usually do even (i feel like as a medium games could explore more outside of its common formulas and genres)
And i personallyy laugh when im watching comedy sketches from before my time, be it 80-90s SNL or Monty Python -even tough i definetly miss some of the subtext and context. Monty Python btw (wich i love) made me understand more of british culture in general and gave me some perspective on that point in time and space then i ever would otherwise.
Anyway, the short of it would be amount/how i feel.
Hi Tim! It’s us, everyone
I think the worst possible reference you could make is a meme reference, both because of how rapidly memes come and go and become stale and dated, and also because of how often popular memes become kind of iffy in hindsight. Good example would be the otherwise anticapitalist borderlands 3 having a gun designed by elon musk because the game was written when he was just seen as the funny twitter guy.
It’s how you feel reading The Divine Comedy, the characters in there are so dead and forgotten that you need a second book with references.
Or just a general understanding of history.
A general understanding won't get you far.@@Mirokuofnite
@@Mirokuofnite maybe for Genghis Khan, but a general knowledge of history isn’t enough to know about Pope Boniface VIII.
@@windwaker105 Maybe it's a problem for most Americans. My school read the Inferno in conjunction with European history and the previous year study on religion/mythology supplemented it. Granted this was in 2005 so who knows what is being taught now.
Or footnotes
All of your topics have been very informative please keep at it. Have a great day!
I completely agree with you when it comes to cultural references in books. I'm reading a book that was written in 2016 right now and it is LITERRED with cultural references that don't necessarily feel forced in the context, but they REALLY make the book feel dated. It is not the same dated feeling as if you're reading a classic work either; it's a dated feeling that just takes me out of the story completely. Thanks for your thoughts Tim! Love the videos
Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra
Wildwasteland perk tripped me out
This is true and something I hadn't considered. Some of my favorite games had references to things that were funny or relevant to the time, but 5+ years later they just seem dated or the public perception of that person or topic has changed since.
The part about things you care deeply about fading away is an interesting thought. Because it's really true. The only events I can think of that will definitely continue to be problems that I care deeply about are *not* things to make throw away references to. Those subjects are the kinds of things to write entire game narratives about.
7:00 As soon as you said that, I immediatly remembered the Command & Conquer games. I used to love them as a kid but seeing them as an adult now I'm like "wow, that's so corny and ridiculous". In a way, I kind of like that too because it's such a 90s/early 2000s staple. Kinda like what made those things magic at the time.
Max Payne 2 features my favourite veiled reference.
In the Club Vodka level (formerly Club Ragnarock from the first game) you see an interaction between the characters of Vladimir Lem and Vinnie Gognitti. So they're shooting at each other and they hear police sirens in the distance to which Vladimir Lem yells out at Vinnie "You hear that? They're coming to take you away!"
This is of course a reference to that song "They're coming to take me away." However inside the world of Max Payne 2 there's a famous TV show called Address Unknown that also uses that line.
And here's where it gets fun. In the first Max Payne it is established that Lem likes quoting pop culture, even relishes in it (Vlad quotes The Godfather at Max). So in the sequel he quotes a line from an in-universe TV show at his enemy as a jab. Even if you do not know the song, you can connect the line with the in-game tv show and if you know the song - then it just adds another layer to the whole thing.
I'll watch the whole ad for you keep being cool
I remember how I was confused, when I encountered crashed whale in the Fallout 1 wasteland. Or TARDIS. Or Red Ryder BB gun.
I was only able to understand that when internet become available.
This is such a good point. There's really only one counter I can think of and it's musicals. Either where an artists' catalog is woven into the work (Across the Universe, Mamma Mia!), music is picked and adapted into a narrative (Moulin Rouge), or something where music references are in the world's naming conventions (Eureka Seven, FLCL). I guess it would work for other types of art, like a movie that looks like a Van Gogh painting or something.
Like, if the references aren't core to the story, I think you're right to suggest skipping them. Helldivers' many homages to Star Wars, Halo, and Starship Troopers are subtle and mostly appreciated without being distracting, even if their publisher's business practices are not. 😂
Excellent Tim Talk!
That's EXACTLY why as I director I ban Memes in our games. Unless it's something extremely hidden away and hard to find, if it's in the story, dialogue or anything else that it's easy for the player to see then it's banned. I learned this from Disney really, reading some of the older Disney animators talk about 90's Disney Movies and why they hate them, movies like Alladdin or Hercules have so many jokes that pertain to THAT time period that dates that movies A LOT, meanwhile Pinocchio or other of the Golden Era classics don't do this because they were trying to create timeless pieces.
A great example of a timeless game IMO is A link to the past. That game looks like its completely new even though its 30 years old give or take.
Insightful as always. These game dev philosophy videos are great!
The placement of cultural references is far more important to me than their presence.
In Fallout, you can obtain records from the Mariposa Military Base that document Roger Maxson founding the Brotherhood of Steel and Richard Grey's transformation into the Master. Both of these logs are played absolutely 100% straight. There is plenty of dark humor in Fallout, but there seemed to be awareness on the part of the designers that some things are about sincere world building, not going for a cheap laugh.
In Fallout 2, you arrive at the Enclave Oil Rig expecting grand revelations about the shadowy enemy you've been seeing across the wasteland but about which you know very little. And you do get some of that...but you also get a bunch of Monica Lewinsky and Dan Quayle jokes. Not only have those jokes aged extremely poorly (I wonder how many younger players in 2024 would even know who Monica Lewisnky and Dan Quayle are?), they take you out of the world. If the designers can't take their own setting seriously, even in what should be the most dramatic places in the game, why should I?
I'm glad New Vegas was much better about this, and I'm glad Wild Wasteland was optional.
There's a old (1941) Merrie Melodies cartoon called Hollywood Steps Out that is super dated but basically became a time capsule. I remember watching it as a kid in the 90s and only recognizing a couple of the stars depicted in it and maybe one or two jokes. The jokes I got where basically ones that where in a bunch of other media and referenced beyond the 40s. What I find most interesting about that cartoon is at one point Cartoon Network or some company later made a edit of the episode and titled all the characters shown so a modern viewer might be able to look up the characters to have a understanding of who they were.
Well made games with lots of references do often seem to follow that rule of references that won't be noticed if not understood -- if you find the "Deathclaw" in Exiled Kingdoms, it still sounds like a cool name the type of item it is even if you don't know the reference.
I love cultural references. Especially the ones I don't get. For example, I remember when back in the day I was watching episodes of The Simpsons and after I was done with each one, I used to check the Wikipedia article about it to read all the production notes and cultural references. This made me find out about interesting people and events that I guess I never would have found out in another way. So I personally LOVE cultural references, because they further my understanding of history and culture itself.
I kinda agree. But I'm one of those nuts who can spend hours on end reading on Tv Tropes.
I... can kind of sympathise? There is one game that I truly love for its cultural references, and that's Kingdom of Loathing.
Hell, another game made by them, West of Loathing, is a western/cowboy themed game where the graphical settings are "Good", "Bad", and "Ugly", which still makes me laugh to this day.
YES! And THANK YOU!
I wholeheartely agree with you there. And I also hate, hate, hate so much cultural references.
And not just because they time your game/movie/series/book, but also because they take me right out of that fictional space that I am (hopefully) immersed on. And I hate it because I'm taken out because someone wanted to do a wink-wink, nudge-nudge at me.
Strongly agree! I would love to slip in a ton of subtle references, but for me, they have to maintain the immersion of the experience. Like... one game I want to make is in a similar kind of setting to Arcanum (which I didn't even hear about until after I wanted to make a setting like that, so that's definitely on my to-play list now as a way of getting some inspiration!). I don't want to do the Simpsons thing of just throwing a bunch of references to things from that time period in the game willy-nilly. I want them to mean something within the game lore and, if people get the references, great! If they don't, their immersion isn't broken or left wanting for not knowing where something came from.
If I was ever designing a game, I would have a limit of 10 references, have them in appropriate places for the player to find & I'd reference things I personally love or things that inspired me to design the game in the first place.
The cutscene with the bear. I understood that reference!
Granted, I didn't have time to watch the full video because im in between things atm and just checked yt really quick for a small break, so excuse me if this is not adressed later on, but I still like to contribute to the conversation because i find the topic very interesting.
I do understand your point, (up to 4 minutes), and i do agree to an extend that certain games/movies/shows/books with certain themes or tones do not lend themselves to cultural references at all, i don't think they are entirely out of place everywhere, and i don't think that its a bad thing overall. Especially in the given example of tv shows, moments that come to mind are those "actor enters scene, scene stops and plays a 'woooooooooo' audience reaction sound bit" thing: I think they can be neat. Of course, making your media timeless is harder to achive this way, but i personally rhink of it more of a design decision in which both approaches are fine. Art can be culturally relevant in the moment, and speak to its audience right here and now, and be very great because of it. Art in general, can absolutely speak to a specific audience in a specific way, if that is the designers intend.
I personally have seen things that i just didn't understand because im not american, or im too young, or just not part of a cultural bubble, but understood that someone somewhere probably got a little kick out of this, because i have also been someone somewhere who did a little clap because something was referenced in a clever way. Art can both aim to be timeless, as well as aim to appeal to a zeitgeist, and both design decisions are as valid as the other.
If the medium stands firmly on its own otherwise, it can absolutely be referential to pop culture, or just the pop culture that specifically influenced it (alan wake 1 and 2 HEAVILY do this and are better games because of it. akot of their charme derives from references and self references)
Being relevant to a specific audience, or in a specific time, can be beautiful. You can speak to a certain group of people, in a certain time, and reach them directly. weave a small sense of home, or a sense of belonging into the art, and connect culturally adjacent groups. And of course, it can also serve as a great time capsule, both as a nostalgia piece for people who lived the time, or as a way to immerse themselves in a time they have not been a part of. This quality also should not be overlooked in my humble opinion.
alright, I'll close this now because i gotta keep going, and if i remember i will watch the rest of the video in due time. I knew this comment was gonna be a long one so i sacrificed watching the second half of the video, just to get this out.I hope everyone is having a great day, and I hope this may spark some conversation between either camp.
Mayhaps someone can comment in a couple hours from now to give me a small notification, so I can watch the rest. See yall!