All mechanics are banding. That’s why they keep trying to bury it. But banding don’t go down easy, banding will send the damage to another mechanic and survive for another day.
Given Kicker is just "the concept of an optional, additional cost" I've always been surprised when people are like "Hey this mechanic's just kicker!" Like... yeah. Kicker's as broad a concept as you can get.
That's why I don't agree with it getting to the top of "best mechanic ever" lists - it's too broad and flavourless. It's like saying 'draw a card' is Magic's greatest mechanic.
@@Tomwithnonumbers If it were evergreen it would be the best mechanic ever, but they only sort of keep it evergreen so they can pretend that Spree isn't multickicker and multikicker isn't kicker.
@@jacobd1984Right, but whenever the alternate cost is higher than the normal cost, you could just rewrite it with kicker and it would function the same
Which is why it's a meme, rather than a criticism. Really it's just a fun way of highlighting the fact that every element of MTG is based upon the mana system and they've been able to build a lot of diversity into the game without forgetting that.
Love these style of behind the design curtain videos. I never would have picked up on the subtle differences between having the player do math vs just writing it out themselves!
I quite like the plus. Reminds me of the little tombstone on Odyssey Block cards that cared about the graveyard. (Side note, I do appreciate you guys bringing that back on original frame cards, like the dredge package in Ravnica Remastered.) And remember, if it's not kicker, it's horsemanship. ;)
Not going to lie, I didn't notice the + symbol next to the mana cost of Spree cards until you mentioned it here! I feel like its very subtle and blends in super well.
Also I totally agree with the kicker math issue. I made a simple cube to play with a few disenfranchised players and wanted to keep it simple so it's easy to play, saw the Battlemages and thought they could be cool, but then having 4 different ways of being cast each with different mana costs was a bit too wild. (No kicker, kicker 1, kicker 2, kicker 1+2)
I likew the spree mechanic. In fact, I was thinking of a variation of Farewell where each selection of creatures/artifacts/enchantments/graveyards would incur an additional cost based on what was selected before Outlaws even came out. It would allow the control player to sweep the board or clear out a graveyard when needed without having to wait to get to a full 6 mana cost. A variation of Farewell looks like a perfect candidate for a card using spree.
I like the +, I wish wizards kept the tombstone for cards that interact with the graveyard. It would fit right at home on Disturb, Aftermath, flashback, Dredge, Encore, Unearth, Embalm, Eternalize, Escape, recover, Scavenge and retrace. Any reminder or symbol that says "Hey I deal with X zone/trigger" is very appreciated, as many commander cards come without reminder text, and even as a highly invested player of 20 years I still forget sometimes. (Here's looking at you Graywater's Fixer's borderless version). Also afterthought, maybe a Wing on things that interact with flying (Hidden reach is too powerful.)
I didn't even notice it, but I think that's the perfect place for it to be, where it's subtle enough to not draw attention to itself but still make me realize that I have to add the costs together.
I really like the + sign personally. As someone that's played Magic for awhile, it really sticks out to me that it' there. I honestly wouldn't mind if it was added to any card that has an additional cost. Perhaps there could even be a symbol for cards that have an optional cost, but perhaps that is getting into the realm of adding more complexity instead of adding more explanations. I do think it's interesting to know that the team takes into account the mental load for certain mechanics. With that in mind, I am curious about how the design team feels about the day/night cycle from MID, which I feel is a really tricky thing to mentally keep track of while balancing everything else, especially since the main card you see with it is The Celestus.
As someone who can't do math on the fly to save her life (apologies to my playgroup lol!), I appreciate that you all are on the lookout for ways to lessen the cognitive load of the math we have to do! If I have one point of feedback for Spree it's that I didn't actually see the + in the mana cost until I'd seen several Spree cards already. It's a little small! Otherwise I think it's a pretty neat mechanic
I'm confused as to how the negative of kicker from a design standpoint was people needing to calculate costs, while Spree is good because...you calculate cost, but there is a + symbol in the mana cost? So being upfront visually via mana cost that you need to pay more makes Spree good compared to kicker where it's not upfront, just written on the card, even though you have to physically check both cards to calculate costs?
@@Magidex How is that different to kicker? The upside with kicker is you get some effect for the base mana cost. With Spree you get nothing. So the Spree cards require math to be used, kicker cards do not since you can ignore kicker. Even if people can self select and not play Spree cards, is that any different to kicker? They didn't have to play them.
This video failed to mention that Kicker (and the other mechanics) allows you to reuse cards or attach more value on one card. Flashback means you can use that draw card twice. Spree means, at a small Premium you can flex the effect a la carte style and play what you need when you need it. So even if Spree may cost more for a similar effect than Kicker, that extra may be worth it to do two or three things at once for card advantage.
The point was that, while requiring players to do addition is a downside, there are contexts where it's necessary. Kicker shouldn't be written as it is because it can _always_ be written as an alternate cost. Spree was given as an example of a mechanic which _requires_ addition, unlike Kicker, so benifits from Kicker-style additive templating. The \+ on Spree cards was highlighted because it's a neat new idea they had to make Spree's Kicker-like templating more obvious at a glance, and make it visible when the card's held alongside other cards.
Until you cast your kicker card without paying it's cost, and suddenly you're very glad it's not written in a way where you need to do subtraction. >.>
I’m not a fan of additive costs for the reasons you put in the video but I defo approve of the use of iconography to make it easer to parse those issues. 💯
Needs to be more prominent. At least with X spells you see the X prominently. The + is an afterthought when the spell often does nothing without the + cost.
@@mattie3875 The spell never does anything, and in fact is not castable if you don't add an effect. You can't just cast a spree card without choosing a mode, which would have some benefits in any deck that likes cast triggers.
There's one thing about the Spree card plus that I actually really like in just an aesthetic part of its design. The little angled bit of the plus sticks out of the card frame entirely, into the border. Just a tiny bit, subtle, but it's there and likely makes it a lot more noticeable with the cards are all lined up in your hand. It 'jumps out', so to speak. And it's not enough of an extension that border width variation would cause a problem with it. It creates this visual illusion that the card is slightly 'bigger' and more 'dynamic' in a spatial sense, which is cool. Compare and Contrast this with the Gravestone symbol that was used during Odyssey on cards that worked in your graveyard in some way, allowing easy identification of cards in that zone that you needed to care about. That symbol was firmly inside the border, but outside the 'normal' boxes, helping it stand out in its own way.
The problem is that it's an aesthetic thing, but it looks like a mechanical thing which will actually changes the spell's mana value (because the mana value is what is in the top right). Except despite the plus in the top right where the mana value is derived, those pluses you add on don't actually change the mana value on the stack.
I love the plus, specifically because it appears on cards that *cannot be cast* for solely their mana cost. I saw people asking if it will appear on other cards with additional costs as well and I don't think it should (at least not for things like kicker where the additional cost is optional). It's nice to know at a glance that this card is necessarily more expensive than the mana cost implies while in hand.
I agree, but I wonder if there is an iconography that can be used for kicker. Like an asterisk instead of a plus? That way people know there is potential for more? But I do agree that the plus here also conveys that you cannot just cast it without paying more, so I think it should be reserved for spree and any future mechanics like it.
@@twarnold14 Maybe they can use the plus with a different color scheme for optional costs. Spree has a white + in a black triangle - if they do a plus for kicker, it could be a black symbol in a white triangle.
@@twarnold14 I don't really think there needs to be a symbol for optional costs. It's just an ability of the card, and too many symbols would get cluttered fast. Why not a symbol for removal spells, a symbol for boardwipes, a symbol for draw... these specific cards can use a symbol effectively because the mana cost alone is, essentially, incorrect.
@@cool_scatterIf the point of a Kicker spell is that it "should" be cast w/ Kicker, and has the upside of being usable without, one can argue that its mana cost is effectively incorrect - that the non-Kicker mode is upside on the card, like a self-discounting ability. I'm not saying you're wrong, since I'm currently more inclined to agree with you than with what I just said, but that is a legitimate counterargument to your position.
The + is a good addition. Kicker should format similarly, but only in the text box and not the mana cost. A spree card MUST include one or more kickers, whereas normal kicker cards are fully optional. Spree is just mandatory multikicker.
The + in the topcorner is an interesting addition. But have you considered the implications possibly percieved on the mana value of the card? We always teach new players that the mana value of the card is the value in the top right corner. But now that corner states you have to add something to the cost of the card. Implying they might need to add the spree cost to the mana value too.
I think this is one reason why it's small, rather than being e.g. a full symbol. That's not to say it won't cause confusion this way, but it should cause less than it would've been as a full symbol. The confusion it causes must be weighed against the benifit of aiding memory. There are arguments both ways. In any case, it's good to note the downsides of an idea alongside its upsides.
I think the plus up in the top right is nice. I think it definitely solves a bit for the complication of having to think about the mana cost in the top right hand corner AND the kicker costs.
I initially wasn't keen on Spree's templating, but it's grown on me very quickly. The mechanic itself seems like it will be very interesting to play with as well. Honestly, for a set where the flavour and themes didn't interest me at all, I've been pleasantly surprised to find that the mechanics of OTJ actually have me more excited to play with it than I've been for any set in years.
interesting to see the thought proccess of how this evolved. The addition of the + is a lot like the addition of the tombstone for flashback. Was there any worries that the + symbol might cause confusion of what the mana cost for the spell?
I have followed all the OTJ previews this week and poured over so many of the Spree cards... but until this video I absolutely did not notice the tiny "+" until my attention was drawn to it. Maybe in paper it is more obvious but it seems super small and easy to miss!
as a graphic designer and player I really like the solution in framing to spree. it's easy to interpret and read and presents a flexible and escalable gameplay that makes for awesome agency driven moments. 10/10
I feel like the plus symbols are a clean and helpful way to help illustrate how the cost for the card is going to work, especially for newer players. Honestly I feel like you could even do a similar thing to future kicker cards and it wouldn't seem too out of place.
I really like the little plus. Honestly, it might work well as a reminder for kicker cards in the future. While I'm always a sucker for old cards (and old border versions), I appreciate the little bits of visual clarity like this. One example: I love the Brothers' War commander decks but my brain has a hard time remembering Bident of Thassa is an artifact.
I like the templating of spree a lot. It is basically just doing multiple different kicker costs/effects which we've seen before, but the way it's laid out is very clean with the plus signs and the modal template.
I never noticed the plus in the cost at the top in any of the reveals, but I'm glad it's there. It's very subtle, but I imagine it might be different holding the card being able to notice
As someone who is normally against modifications to the elegant MtG frame and text parsing (e.g. I disliked how inelegant Cleave felt), I do like that for cards that have a non-optional additional cost, especially if it's mana based. It has grown on me, even though I had mixed feelings the first time I saw it. I'd consider it similar to the gravestone on old frame, a neat indication of functionality that does not disrupt the design of the frame too much overall.
very interesting video! I must say i don't like the + right there, mainly because the corner goes out of the border and it triggers my ocd >,> it makes my eye go there constantly. I would have liked a lot more to have the + not sticking out at all. as a mechanic it's super fun, but in the end from a mathematical point of view it's very similar if not more difficult to sum than kicker. nevertheless is a clever and elegant design
I thought that one of the more widely known problems with MtG's card layout was the placement of the mana cost symbols. Precisely because many people don't fan the cards in their hand in a way that makes these symbols easily visible. I was really surprised by the example given when explaining the '+' symbol in the mana cost because this type of fanning looks really unnatural to me :D
Gavin was only allowed to admit that everything is fundamentally just Kicker; He wasn't allowed to admit that the layout of almost every Magic ever printed is backwards. 😂
I think that's pure personal preference. I always fan cards so the leftmost is closest to me, and I see others do the same. I doubt that there's significant practical benifit to having cost on either left or right, because I suspect that this is the sort of thing people would be 50-50 split on, but I'd be interested to read a study analyzing this. If the split is significantly different from 50-50, it'd be interesting to know.
@delta3244 ask a non-mtg-player to fan out a hand of cards, and see that it's overwhelmingingly in favor of having the rightmost card on top. When drawing the cards one by one, handedness, and position of the deck can affect how someone fans their cards.
@@mawillix2018 It's always been the opposite around me. What you claim is true isn't a constant. Unless you have more than just anecdotes, we aren't going to be able to resolve this point (because neither of us has useful data - we have opposing anecdotes). What I'll say is this: I take the fact that MtG cards have the mana symbol in the top-left as evidence that its creators were used to people holding hands the same way I typically see them, which proves that there is more than one region/"culture" where people do that. I'll take the fact that multiple people agree that people always fan the opposite way as proof that there is more than one region/"culture" opposing my normal. Thus, from what little "data" I have, I can only stick with my original conclusion that fan direction is personal preference.
I'm glad you made this video. when I origianlly saw the first spree card I just immediatly went "this is just kicker the mechanic.... wait isn't kicker just kicker the mechanic?" but i'm glad you addressed the meme
Good video Gavin, thank you! I wonder, did it come to mind that by trying to fix Kicker with the introduction of all those new mechanics, it could actually increase the overall complexity of the game and maybe create a new problem?
My biggest issue with Spree is the power creep of it. I like having multiple options, so Spree is a really fun design space and great in Commander where you need to jam a bunch of different cards for different situations into your deck. But, most of the Spree cards are actively on par with or better than cards that dont have Spree. Like Insatiable Avarice is just a better Sign in Blood and can also be a tutor.
My main concern with it was cards like disdainful stroke. I was initially under the impression that due the "+" being in the mana cost of the card that similarly to X spells they could be countered by something that cares about mana value. I guess I was wrong, but now that I know this I do know better for future.
Gavin... seriously... you are a better spokesperson for MTG than everyone that's being paid to do it. Love your content, and I feel GOOD about magic after seeing your videos. Keep it up
@@makeout_hill yes, after posting, I did realize I had worded my comment non-perfectly, and knew the internets would punish me. I guess I mean that there is an entire marketing department fully focused on doing work that Gavin is out-performing
I think the plus is a simple, crisp, elegant addition. Reminds me a bit of the gravestone from yesteryear. I didn't think the card frame could be improved further, but you guys managed it!
7:05 I love the small + It's intuitive and non-invasive, and easily identifies the card in a fanned hand. I'm a big fan of them. Especially with Smuggler's Surprise. I see some card I want in instead, but I've used 2 of the abilities to win games, so... it's staying in! There were some really fun spree cards like Shifting Grift or One Last Job (so fun in a Dogmeat commander deck!!)
Does the plus mean that the mana value is dependent on the modes I pay for (like an X spell) or is it still just the printed value? Can I be mental or minor misstepped casting the ones with a printed mana value of 1¿
The plus is a solid introduction to the cards, it's intuitive and informative. As a designer I would love to see magic cards cleaned up even more going forward. 👌
My guess for what the problem was is close! Though I was thinking more of the mechanical differences between kicker being an _additional_ cost versus the others being _alternate_ costs. The distinction matters in some places people don't always expect - like, you can put a Cyclonic Rift on an Isochron Scepter, but you can't pay the overload cost when you copy it with the stick. By contrast, you can put a kicker card like, say Orim's Chant on an Isochron Scepter, and when you cast it you *can* choose to pay the kicker cost, since it's additional. But while that can be a bit of a pain point for learning the game and teaching others, i do agree with all the points in defense of it - it's still easy to explain, and once you get it down you understand it forever. And some of those interactions can be quite interesting.
I'm torn on the new little plus sign. I love how intuitive it is and how you can see it when you fan your hand out, but theres something about messing with the Name Box and Mana Cost that bothers me. Like the triangles for the MDFCs. Its useful, but also a little odd.
4 remarks: - With kicker you have to do the math only when you want an additionnal effect. With spree, in every case you have to do the math. The cost in the right top corner tell you nothing (it's abig problem ?) - Why not written the cost for exemple final showdonw {+}{W}. With the plus in a gray circle like X cost ? - As spree is written, I don't know if I can play a same additionnal cost mutiple time (as multikicking) or can we play it without additionnal cost. I think it's not the case. - Why not keep with kicker for exemple final showdown written as cost 1{W} text: kicker 3{W}{W} choose one -all creature lose all abilities until end of turn or choose a creature, it gain indestructible until end of turn. Then if kicker cost was paid destroy all creature. Not the same card, bit less powefull but more interresting choice ??
You ask some good questions. I think the reason they don't put the plus in a grey circle is that spree abilities don't actually modify the mana value of a card. In the Final Showdown example, your opponent can Minor Misstep your Final Showdown even if you paid a total 6 mana for the "Destroy All Creatures" mode. I think this is actually a confusing feature of the templating. The little "+" makes it seem like you are adding to the mana value. In reality you are just adding to paid costs, which is different.
@@SoopaPop I didn't notice the low mana value - Was low cmc a primary intention, because they just add discover (which work great with low cmc and both are standard) or is it a result of the templating ? - there is more counter play card against low cmc but are they played (in format standard, modern...)? I will stop asking new question but I fell game design so interresting :)
@@erwanprn5491 Spree cards are actually some of the worst you could hit with discover/cascade. Casting a spell with spree 'without paying its mana cost' means you only get to ignore the cost that's actually in the top right. The card itself forces you to choose one or more additional costs, and those you will still have to pay for. If you can't or don't want to, then you don't get to cast the spell at all. With discover you can at least always just put it in your hand, but it's still anti-synergistic.
@@Felixr2 Of course you are right (I rarely play/build cascade/discover so didn't notice anti-synergy). Do LOW CMC card with additionnal cost have a positive aspect (tutorable) ?
@@erwanprn5491 Since Spree in particular only appears on instants and sorceries (so far), I also limited my search to that. A few applications I found: Most spree spells are tutorable by Spellseeker (search for instant or sorcery with mv 2 or less when it enters). Won't lose as much life to Ad Nauseam. Copiable with Expansion (copies will keep all the modes you chose) Can more easily use Abaddon the Despoiler's effect (and thanks to many being mv 1, can consistently cascade into your mv 0 spells like Inevitable Betrayal or Gaea's Will) Doesn't add much to the total mana value exiled with Dance with Calamity (but still has poor synergy with the casting for free part) Most things that care about low mv do so because they let you cast the spell for free, or only care about low mv permanents. Some things (like plotting cards in the context of standard and limited) might get value out of simply having it as an option (cards like Jace Reawakened and Kellan Joins Up come to mind). Still doesn't seem great though.
I wish there was a symbol or border or something visual for abilities that trigger once a turn or "only activate as a sorcery". You get so used to abilities being usuable at any time that its the top misplay I see in the middle of a crazy game, especially when a card is new or rarely seen.
Or like how Inventor’s Fair absolutely has Metalcraft for its tutor ability, but because it doesn’t say “Metalcraft” and its requirement is at the end, it can lead to people to try to search even tho they can’t.
I'm really baffled they haven't added a symbol for "Activate only as a sorcery". Custom cards were using an hourglass symbol for that 10 years ago. And it's still so easy to miss buried at the end of a wall of text.
Question: Is the expectation that the plus symbol by the cost to be for anything with a potential additional cost (eg Kicker) or just spells that have an enforced additional cost? (This might include cards like Goblin Grenade.) Obviously we can't say anything about what WILL happen, because things change over time. And this is of course assuming that there's good feedback on how it pans out.
Invasion block was my favorite Standard (Type 2 as it was called back then) to play in and Kicker was a great mechanic back then and still is today. Seeing Spree in the new set was really cool and it's my favorite new mechanic in a very long time and I really hope to see it revisited a lot going forward.
i've literally never noticed the plus sign. which is a shame, cuz the flashback gravestone was always something i liked. it really made "this spell does something unusual in your graveyard" feel special and noticable. and noticing the plus sign would've made spree cards easier to understand, back when i saw my first one!
I really like the '+' in the corner and it reminds me of the old Gravestone for cards that had Flashback in the old days. I would love to see reprints of Kicker/Multi-Kicker use the '+' and even pushing that for a the Gravestone to return for cards that have abilities in the graveyard. Perhaps non instant/sorcery cards with 'from the hand' activations could have a symbol too? We all know what a Miracle card looks like so it's obvious when you draw it that you need to immediately consider whether to use it or not. I consider this basically the same thing.
One thing to note about Final Flourish (5:15) and its Kicker cost: Since it doesn't include any extra mana, and sacrificing something would be written as an additional cost in the text box anyway, I don't think the drawback of adding up additional costs even comes into effect here at all.
I adore the new + for spree!! Itd be interesting to see if this was applied to something like kicker itself, whether the plus or perhaps a >>> style pattern with the same arrow like in the spree frame but bonus lines at the end to show “hey, this has an alternative/additional casting cost” or whatever. Obviously would need some planning but I dunno just feels pretty neat:) love the videos as always!
Yes, the plus in the cost looks great. Which is why you should bring back the gravestone. That was a good idea too. Anger really sticks out when I discard it, so why doesn't Ox of Agonas?
I really like Spree as a mechanic and can't wait to try it out in my local prerelease. I haven't even gotten a chance to play with the cards yet, and I'm already hoping we see it again someday! The modal nature of it makes for some very interesting design space.
I did remember the costs and kicker/flashback costs. But I played the mentioned cards a LOT when first playing magic and those two blocks are part of my DNA
I like spree cards but I find it unintuitive that you cannot play them for their face manacost while not choosing any additionnal modes (things that you could want to do in fringe situations)
I love Good Morning Magic, thanks Gavin. Kicker has stuck around and its 300 variants because its just good for the game, its in game modality. One of my favorite decks is actually simic kicker from ZNR. I don't like the plus sign element look personally. First of all, I don't believe most (or any) players fan their cards to show the mana cost, its just not how people hold playing cards. Arena also doesn't fan it this way , though Arena superimposes the mana costs on top of the cards for readability. The video shows a left fan which is unnatural Because Spree doesn't have any non-kicker bonuses, literally the card does nothing unless kicked, it doesn't serve as confusing to me at all, basically the card can't be confused with how much to pay since it has no initial effect I do miss though on flashback when the tombstone symbol was on the cards with flashback, it made it easier to see it in the gy, and it was in the top left corner. Please bring that back!
You’re not wrong: the flashback cost is easier to remember. I couldn’t remember any of the kicker costs you put up. I also like the + but I am part of the camp that thinks it is a little too small.
When i was a kid we all loved volvers. We all picked a tri color and had diff decks. Invasion block and the block after was the most fun standard has ever been!!
I would love to see the + or something like it on cards with an additional cost, mandatory or optional. Kicker, Tormenting Voice, etc. It's a nice heads-up that there's more to the cost than simply what is in the corner.
Great video. Concerning the + near mana sign, I’ll have to get the cards in hand for a final say but right now it feels not visually pleasing nor intuitive.
I had noticed and appreciated the plus. I like it a lot. I like the design of the plus, it’s not to big, but still nice and noticeable. I hope we see more spree or other forms of “modal kicker” cards in the future.
my only issue with the plus on spree cards is that i wish it was a bit bigger? i find that it gets a little swallowed up in the top right of the card border
Lol so now I have to show everyone this video and convince my EDH pod to Rule 0 that Spree, Overload, Bestow etc should be counted as kicker when I play Hallar or Verazol kicker decks
I like the use of the plus, there is just something about the placement visually that seems off to me. A minor complaint, yes, but I wonder what it would have looked like next to the mana pips.
So the issue with kicker is the formatting? So if the spell is 2R and the kicker cost is R, why not present the information differently? e.g. Goblin Ruinblaster 2R to get a 2/1 haste (kicker 2RR) If Goblin Ruinblaster was kicked, ETB destroy target nonbasic.
I've noticed a similar problem with newer players who don't quite understand how kicker works. Because of things like overload and flashback showing the entire cost next to the keyword, they cast the spell for only its kicker cost and ignore the base value, thinking that's just how the mechanic works.
The plus in the mana cost of the card is a really nice touch I think, but I worry if this will introduce new instances of other symbols being made and placed near the mana cost of the card. Would we see an asterisk or an ampersand placed here in the future? For spree this works well, but Im not sure if this is a design space that is worth exploring further for the sake of making rules clearer
The plus in the corner is nice for knowing that spell in hand has a kicker...but the plus signs don't somehow alter the math of figuring out a spell's total cost. We have to add the numbers up either way. I don't see how that was ever an issue.
Looking back at evoke I think it might be fun to look at mechanics that ended up being used in ways that the author did not intend them to be used, such as cascade being used to cheat suspend costs. The evoke cost was, for instance, used to cheat big elementals into play for little mana by using black cantrips on them that kept them alive after they hit the field. It would be fun to know how later designs would fix some of the loopholes and oversights that were present in older designs.
Gonna have to wait to play with it, tho with variable add costs and separating the "initial" cost up top with the choices cost only per one, I feel like I have to overwrite the entwine or escalate reflex since we "add piecemeal" instead of a kicker chunk. In playing it might be less an issue but in evaluating cost effectiveness, I feel like mentally working backwards both that the "main" effect is last (due to spell resolution order) on top of evaluating each combinarion: Final showdown is a 6 mana instant wrath, or 2 mana for dress down or protection or 7 one of those + the wrath or 8 total for the whole picture (dress down opponents, protect your beater, wrath). It's a bit if it's own puzzle and it's way easier to think of the one choice or all instead of the partial selections for chunking maybe but I approve of the end results just that I need to work bottom up to see it
Back after a fun Pre-Release and month of playing. Think the same issue remains (needing to do math) even when I'm aware of the spree card as it is. It's certainly cleaner than the "volver" style of iterations, and going forward I definitely still want Spree-like kicker cards (variable costs per effect), but ironically while having the Mana Cost + marks the card, it ironically breaks apart the Initial cost > effect cost so while it's easy to tack on each effect while paying for it, it's again hard to "cost evaluate" anything outside 1 or all effects at a time.
The plus is nice, but what I really want to talk about is my surprise at the bundled costs performing better. I always have to stop myself to remember that Overload isn't additive, but an alternative. This is because its an additional effect (basically, since you're adding extra targets) whereas something like Bestow works as a separate cost (to me) because you're getting an entirely different effect than if you cast the card proper. To me that should be the distinction, although I do appreciate the ability to change the colours, and its a shame that the plus in spree probably wouldn't work for kicker cards, since they don't have to be kicked.
In unfortunate accident though the + is harder to read due to its background color being the same color as the card, i think for black cards it should have been reversed.
Nice video. I like Spree as a mechanic - yay to more modal cards - and I don't personally have a feeling one way or another about the + at the top of the card, but I can see how it might serve as a reminder for some players, so that's a good thing.
Spree cards are very flexible and well rounded to fit any scenarios! they are great ! I would like to know more about ward, protection and hexproof. I do like some protection knights.
I guess it's a bit late now, but I think I would have preferred that Spree cards had a full pized + pip in the cost to indicate that it's not the full cost to play the card. Meanwhile the smaller supertext + could be used for Kicker type cards where there is an optional additional cost.
You’re wrong, Gavin. Not every mechanic is Kicker. Some mechanics are horsemanship.
And how do you control a horse? By kicking them of course 😤
He did say "spell mechanic" and not just mechanic. Horsemanship is not a spell mechanic. It is a combat mechanic.
And horsemanship is just flying... Same as shadow...etc
All mechanics are banding. That’s why they keep trying to bury it. But banding don’t go down easy, banding will send the damage to another mechanic and survive for another day.
@@pketr5 "This spell can't be countered except by spells with Horsemanship."
He admitted that everything is kicker. Finally
It was finally time
@@GoodMorningMagicBut is kicker a sandwich?
@@snackplaylove It's the other way around: a sandwich is bread with kicker
Everything in magic is either one of two mechanics: kicker or flying.
@@byronsmothers8064 Trample is just green Flying... that tracks!
Given Kicker is just "the concept of an optional, additional cost" I've always been surprised when people are like "Hey this mechanic's just kicker!" Like... yeah. Kicker's as broad a concept as you can get.
To be fair, several of the “just kicker!” mechanics are actually alternate casting costs, not additive costs.
That's why I don't agree with it getting to the top of "best mechanic ever" lists - it's too broad and flavourless. It's like saying 'draw a card' is Magic's greatest mechanic.
@@Tomwithnonumbers If it were evergreen it would be the best mechanic ever, but they only sort of keep it evergreen so they can pretend that Spree isn't multickicker and multikicker isn't kicker.
@@jacobd1984Right, but whenever the alternate cost is higher than the normal cost, you could just rewrite it with kicker and it would function the same
Which is why it's a meme, rather than a criticism. Really it's just a fun way of highlighting the fact that every element of MTG is based upon the mana system and they've been able to build a lot of diversity into the game without forgetting that.
Love these style of behind the design curtain videos. I never would have picked up on the subtle differences between having the player do math vs just writing it out themselves!
I quite like the plus. Reminds me of the little tombstone on Odyssey Block cards that cared about the graveyard. (Side note, I do appreciate you guys bringing that back on original frame cards, like the dredge package in Ravnica Remastered.)
And remember, if it's not kicker, it's horsemanship. ;)
Not going to lie, I didn't notice the + symbol next to the mana cost of Spree cards until you mentioned it here! I feel like its very subtle and blends in super well.
Also I totally agree with the kicker math issue. I made a simple cube to play with a few disenfranchised players and wanted to keep it simple so it's easy to play, saw the Battlemages and thought they could be cool, but then having 4 different ways of being cast each with different mana costs was a bit too wild. (No kicker, kicker 1, kicker 2, kicker 1+2)
I likew the spree mechanic. In fact, I was thinking of a variation of Farewell where each selection of creatures/artifacts/enchantments/graveyards would incur an additional cost based on what was selected before Outlaws even came out. It would allow the control player to sweep the board or clear out a graveyard when needed without having to wait to get to a full 6 mana cost. A variation of Farewell looks like a perfect candidate for a card using spree.
I like the +, I wish wizards kept the tombstone for cards that interact with the graveyard. It would fit right at home on Disturb, Aftermath, flashback, Dredge, Encore, Unearth, Embalm, Eternalize, Escape, recover, Scavenge and retrace. Any reminder or symbol that says "Hey I deal with X zone/trigger" is very appreciated, as many commander cards come without reminder text, and even as a highly invested player of 20 years I still forget sometimes. (Here's looking at you Graywater's Fixer's borderless version). Also afterthought, maybe a Wing on things that interact with flying (Hidden reach is too powerful.)
I didn't even notice it, but I think that's the perfect place for it to be, where it's subtle enough to not draw attention to itself but still make me realize that I have to add the costs together.
Really like this. One suggestion would be to make the + sign as big as the mana symbol so it stands out more
I'm back from prerelease (which I played before watching this) and the plus was extremely helpful, thank you.
Awesome!! Thanks for letting me know. I'm glad it was such a help!! 😄
I really like the + sign personally. As someone that's played Magic for awhile, it really sticks out to me that it' there. I honestly wouldn't mind if it was added to any card that has an additional cost. Perhaps there could even be a symbol for cards that have an optional cost, but perhaps that is getting into the realm of adding more complexity instead of adding more explanations. I do think it's interesting to know that the team takes into account the mental load for certain mechanics. With that in mind, I am curious about how the design team feels about the day/night cycle from MID, which I feel is a really tricky thing to mentally keep track of while balancing everything else, especially since the main card you see with it is The Celestus.
As someone who can't do math on the fly to save her life (apologies to my playgroup lol!), I appreciate that you all are on the lookout for ways to lessen the cognitive load of the math we have to do! If I have one point of feedback for Spree it's that I didn't actually see the + in the mana cost until I'd seen several Spree cards already. It's a little small! Otherwise I think it's a pretty neat mechanic
I mean, you still have to do math with Spree cards though?
I'm confused as to how the negative of kicker from a design standpoint was people needing to calculate costs, while Spree is good because...you calculate cost, but there is a + symbol in the mana cost? So being upfront visually via mana cost that you need to pay more makes Spree good compared to kicker where it's not upfront, just written on the card, even though you have to physically check both cards to calculate costs?
Spree cards do no have an effect *unless* you do the math.
You have comitted to doing math simply by adding Spree cards to your deck.
@@Magidex How is that different to kicker? The upside with kicker is you get some effect for the base mana cost. With Spree you get nothing. So the Spree cards require math to be used, kicker cards do not since you can ignore kicker. Even if people can self select and not play Spree cards, is that any different to kicker? They didn't have to play them.
This video failed to mention that Kicker (and the other mechanics) allows you to reuse cards or attach more value on one card. Flashback means you can use that draw card twice. Spree means, at a small Premium you can flex the effect a la carte style and play what you need when you need it. So even if Spree may cost more for a similar effect than Kicker, that extra may be worth it to do two or three things at once for card advantage.
The point was that, while requiring players to do addition is a downside, there are contexts where it's necessary. Kicker shouldn't be written as it is because it can _always_ be written as an alternate cost. Spree was given as an example of a mechanic which _requires_ addition, unlike Kicker, so benifits from Kicker-style additive templating. The \+ on Spree cards was highlighted because it's a neat new idea they had to make Spree's Kicker-like templating more obvious at a glance, and make it visible when the card's held alongside other cards.
Until you cast your kicker card without paying it's cost, and suddenly you're very glad it's not written in a way where you need to do subtraction. >.>
I commented in a group chat about it when I first noticed that plus. I for one not only noticed it but felt it was a nice change.
I’m not a fan of additive costs for the reasons you put in the video but I defo approve of the use of iconography to make it easer to parse those issues. 💯
Needs to be more prominent. At least with X spells you see the X prominently. The + is an afterthought when the spell often does nothing without the + cost.
@@mattie3875 The spell never does anything, and in fact is not castable if you don't add an effect. You can't just cast a spree card without choosing a mode, which would have some benefits in any deck that likes cast triggers.
There's one thing about the Spree card plus that I actually really like in just an aesthetic part of its design.
The little angled bit of the plus sticks out of the card frame entirely, into the border.
Just a tiny bit, subtle, but it's there and likely makes it a lot more noticeable with the cards are all lined up in your hand. It 'jumps out', so to speak. And it's not enough of an extension that border width variation would cause a problem with it. It creates this visual illusion that the card is slightly 'bigger' and more 'dynamic' in a spatial sense, which is cool.
Compare and Contrast this with the Gravestone symbol that was used during Odyssey on cards that worked in your graveyard in some way, allowing easy identification of cards in that zone that you needed to care about. That symbol was firmly inside the border, but outside the 'normal' boxes, helping it stand out in its own way.
The problem is that it's an aesthetic thing, but it looks like a mechanical thing which will actually changes the spell's mana value (because the mana value is what is in the top right). Except despite the plus in the top right where the mana value is derived, those pluses you add on don't actually change the mana value on the stack.
I love the plus, specifically because it appears on cards that *cannot be cast* for solely their mana cost. I saw people asking if it will appear on other cards with additional costs as well and I don't think it should (at least not for things like kicker where the additional cost is optional). It's nice to know at a glance that this card is necessarily more expensive than the mana cost implies while in hand.
I agree, but I wonder if there is an iconography that can be used for kicker. Like an asterisk instead of a plus? That way people know there is potential for more? But I do agree that the plus here also conveys that you cannot just cast it without paying more, so I think it should be reserved for spree and any future mechanics like it.
I still got confused, as I thought these cards could be cast solely for their mana cost. (until I saw this video at least)
@@twarnold14 Maybe they can use the plus with a different color scheme for optional costs. Spree has a white + in a black triangle - if they do a plus for kicker, it could be a black symbol in a white triangle.
@@twarnold14 I don't really think there needs to be a symbol for optional costs. It's just an ability of the card, and too many symbols would get cluttered fast. Why not a symbol for removal spells, a symbol for boardwipes, a symbol for draw... these specific cards can use a symbol effectively because the mana cost alone is, essentially, incorrect.
@@cool_scatterIf the point of a Kicker spell is that it "should" be cast w/ Kicker, and has the upside of being usable without, one can argue that its mana cost is effectively incorrect - that the non-Kicker mode is upside on the card, like a self-discounting ability. I'm not saying you're wrong, since I'm currently more inclined to agree with you than with what I just said, but that is a legitimate counterargument to your position.
The + is a good addition. Kicker should format similarly, but only in the text box and not the mana cost. A spree card MUST include one or more kickers, whereas normal kicker cards are fully optional. Spree is just mandatory multikicker.
Mandatory Multikicker is a good name for a band.
The + in the topcorner is an interesting addition. But have you considered the implications possibly percieved on the mana value of the card?
We always teach new players that the mana value of the card is the value in the top right corner. But now that corner states you have to add something to the cost of the card. Implying they might need to add the spree cost to the mana value too.
I think this is one reason why it's small, rather than being e.g. a full symbol. That's not to say it won't cause confusion this way, but it should cause less than it would've been as a full symbol.
The confusion it causes must be weighed against the benifit of aiding memory. There are arguments both ways. In any case, it's good to note the downsides of an idea alongside its upsides.
I think the plus up in the top right is nice. I think it definitely solves a bit for the complication of having to think about the mana cost in the top right hand corner AND the kicker costs.
Spree seems awesome. Looking forward to playing some cards with it. My one bit of initial feedback is that the addition ➕ symbol seems a tad small
Glad to see you’re still playing Magic! 😉 (Hello from Martin in MN!)
I initially wasn't keen on Spree's templating, but it's grown on me very quickly. The mechanic itself seems like it will be very interesting to play with as well. Honestly, for a set where the flavour and themes didn't interest me at all, I've been pleasantly surprised to find that the mechanics of OTJ actually have me more excited to play with it than I've been for any set in years.
interesting to see the thought proccess of how this evolved.
The addition of the + is a lot like the addition of the tombstone for flashback.
Was there any worries that the + symbol might cause confusion of what the mana cost for the spell?
I have followed all the OTJ previews this week and poured over so many of the Spree cards... but until this video I absolutely did not notice the tiny "+" until my attention was drawn to it. Maybe in paper it is more obvious but it seems super small and easy to miss!
as a graphic designer and player I really like the solution in framing to spree. it's easy to interpret and read and presents a flexible and escalable gameplay that makes for awesome agency driven moments. 10/10
I feel like the plus symbols are a clean and helpful way to help illustrate how the cost for the card is going to work, especially for newer players. Honestly I feel like you could even do a similar thing to future kicker cards and it wouldn't seem too out of place.
Haha, that's hilarious. I had no idea what the kicker cost was but remembered the flashback costs.
I really like the little plus. Honestly, it might work well as a reminder for kicker cards in the future.
While I'm always a sucker for old cards (and old border versions), I appreciate the little bits of visual clarity like this. One example: I love the Brothers' War commander decks but my brain has a hard time remembering Bident of Thassa is an artifact.
The plus is really cool, but I don't know if I like the way the little border flick goes over the black border.
I like the templating of spree a lot. It is basically just doing multiple different kicker costs/effects which we've seen before, but the way it's laid out is very clean with the plus signs and the modal template.
I never noticed the plus in the cost at the top in any of the reveals, but I'm glad it's there. It's very subtle, but I imagine it might be different holding the card being able to notice
As someone who is normally against modifications to the elegant MtG frame and text parsing (e.g. I disliked how inelegant Cleave felt), I do like that for cards that have a non-optional additional cost, especially if it's mana based. It has grown on me, even though I had mixed feelings the first time I saw it.
I'd consider it similar to the gravestone on old frame, a neat indication of functionality that does not disrupt the design of the frame too much overall.
very interesting video!
I must say i don't like the + right there, mainly because the corner goes out of the border and it triggers my ocd >,> it makes my eye go there constantly. I would have liked a lot more to have the + not sticking out at all.
as a mechanic it's super fun, but in the end from a mathematical point of view it's very similar if not more difficult to sum than kicker. nevertheless is a clever and elegant design
I didn't realize there was a + simbol in the top mana cost of the spree cards, I like those cute little details
I thought that one of the more widely known problems with MtG's card layout was the placement of the mana cost symbols. Precisely because many people don't fan the cards in their hand in a way that makes these symbols easily visible. I was really surprised by the example given when explaining the '+' symbol in the mana cost because this type of fanning looks really unnatural to me :D
Gavin was only allowed to admit that everything is fundamentally just Kicker; He wasn't allowed to admit that the layout of almost every Magic ever printed is backwards. 😂
I think that's pure personal preference. I always fan cards so the leftmost is closest to me, and I see others do the same. I doubt that there's significant practical benifit to having cost on either left or right, because I suspect that this is the sort of thing people would be 50-50 split on, but I'd be interested to read a study analyzing this. If the split is significantly different from 50-50, it'd be interesting to know.
how does your playgroup fan their cards? with the right card on top?
@delta3244 ask a non-mtg-player to fan out a hand of cards, and see that it's overwhelmingingly in favor of having the rightmost card on top.
When drawing the cards one by one, handedness, and position of the deck can affect how someone fans their cards.
@@mawillix2018 It's always been the opposite around me. What you claim is true isn't a constant.
Unless you have more than just anecdotes, we aren't going to be able to resolve this point (because neither of us has useful data - we have opposing anecdotes). What I'll say is this: I take the fact that MtG cards have the mana symbol in the top-left as evidence that its creators were used to people holding hands the same way I typically see them, which proves that there is more than one region/"culture" where people do that. I'll take the fact that multiple people agree that people always fan the opposite way as proof that there is more than one region/"culture" opposing my normal. Thus, from what little "data" I have, I can only stick with my original conclusion that fan direction is personal preference.
Honestly, I didn't even noticed the plus through spoilers until you just pointed it out heh' ...
I wasn't sure about the + in the mana cost, but after what you said about the fanning your hand, it make sense so I now fully on board
I even liked the little tombstone on flashback cards.
I didn’t even think about being able to see the plus while searching or looking at a hand fanned, well done, I like little things like that a lot!
I love when you talk about mechanics and the brainstorming behind them, I like this video just like I appreciated your previous one on first strike
I haven't held physical Spree cards, but the "+" design looks good and not too intrusive. And the mechanic itself is spectacular.
I'm glad you made this video. when I origianlly saw the first spree card I just immediatly went "this is just kicker the mechanic.... wait isn't kicker just kicker the mechanic?" but i'm glad you addressed the meme
What I hate is the one version of Squee has the escape mechanic but isn’t written that way
Would you consider adding your plus sign technology on kicker cards from now on? either in the name or in the text box? like, Kicker +2G
Good video Gavin, thank you! I wonder, did it come to mind that by trying to fix Kicker with the introduction of all those new mechanics, it could actually increase the overall complexity of the game and maybe create a new problem?
And they already have elegant solution as mentionned in the video.
My biggest issue with Spree is the power creep of it. I like having multiple options, so Spree is a really fun design space and great in Commander where you need to jam a bunch of different cards for different situations into your deck. But, most of the Spree cards are actively on par with or better than cards that dont have Spree. Like Insatiable Avarice is just a better Sign in Blood and can also be a tutor.
My main concern with it was cards like disdainful stroke. I was initially under the impression that due the "+" being in the mana cost of the card that similarly to X spells they could be countered by something that cares about mana value. I guess I was wrong, but now that I know this I do know better for future.
Plus is awesome. I am always delighted when you find a way to use the border to help communicate something unique about the card.
Gavin... seriously... you are a better spokesperson for MTG than everyone that's being paid to do it. Love your content, and I feel GOOD about magic after seeing your videos. Keep it up
But he is being paid to do it… he is an employee of wizards 😂
@@makeout_hill yes, after posting, I did realize I had worded my comment non-perfectly, and knew the internets would punish me. I guess I mean that there is an entire marketing department fully focused on doing work that Gavin is out-performing
Hate to break it to you, but these videos were almost certainly the marketing department’s idea
I love the neatness of using the corner space for the +
I think the plus is a simple, crisp, elegant addition. Reminds me a bit of the gravestone from yesteryear. I didn't think the card frame could be improved further, but you guys managed it!
I love the little plus just like I enjoy the flashback tombstone it helps visually represent something very well.
7:05 I love the small +
It's intuitive and non-invasive, and easily identifies the card in a fanned hand. I'm a big fan of them. Especially with Smuggler's Surprise. I see some card I want in instead, but I've used 2 of the abilities to win games, so... it's staying in! There were some really fun spree cards like Shifting Grift or One Last Job (so fun in a Dogmeat commander deck!!)
Does the plus mean that the mana value is dependent on the modes I pay for (like an X spell) or is it still just the printed value? Can I be mental or minor misstepped casting the ones with a printed mana value of 1¿
The plus is a solid introduction to the cards, it's intuitive and informative. As a designer I would love to see magic cards cleaned up even more going forward. 👌
Love the plus. It makes a card much more intuitive and clearer to read.
My guess for what the problem was is close! Though I was thinking more of the mechanical differences between kicker being an _additional_ cost versus the others being _alternate_ costs.
The distinction matters in some places people don't always expect - like, you can put a Cyclonic Rift on an Isochron Scepter, but you can't pay the overload cost when you copy it with the stick. By contrast, you can put a kicker card like, say Orim's Chant on an Isochron Scepter, and when you cast it you *can* choose to pay the kicker cost, since it's additional.
But while that can be a bit of a pain point for learning the game and teaching others, i do agree with all the points in defense of it - it's still easy to explain, and once you get it down you understand it forever. And some of those interactions can be quite interesting.
I'm torn on the new little plus sign. I love how intuitive it is and how you can see it when you fan your hand out, but theres something about messing with the Name Box and Mana Cost that bothers me. Like the triangles for the MDFCs. Its useful, but also a little odd.
4 remarks:
- With kicker you have to do the math only when you want an additionnal effect. With spree, in every case you have to do the math. The cost in the right top corner tell you nothing (it's abig problem ?)
- Why not written the cost for exemple final showdonw {+}{W}. With the plus in a gray circle like X cost ?
- As spree is written, I don't know if I can play a same additionnal cost mutiple time (as multikicking) or can we play it without additionnal cost. I think it's not the case.
- Why not keep with kicker for exemple final showdown written as cost 1{W} text: kicker 3{W}{W} choose one -all creature lose all abilities until end of turn or choose a creature, it gain indestructible until end of turn. Then if kicker cost was paid destroy all creature.
Not the same card, bit less powefull but more interresting choice ??
You ask some good questions. I think the reason they don't put the plus in a grey circle is that spree abilities don't actually modify the mana value of a card. In the Final Showdown example, your opponent can Minor Misstep your Final Showdown even if you paid a total 6 mana for the "Destroy All Creatures" mode. I think this is actually a confusing feature of the templating. The little "+" makes it seem like you are adding to the mana value. In reality you are just adding to paid costs, which is different.
@@SoopaPop I didn't notice the low mana value
- Was low cmc a primary intention, because they just add discover (which work great with low cmc and both are standard) or is it a result of the templating ?
- there is more counter play card against low cmc but are they played (in format standard, modern...)?
I will stop asking new question but I fell game design so interresting :)
@@erwanprn5491 Spree cards are actually some of the worst you could hit with discover/cascade. Casting a spell with spree 'without paying its mana cost' means you only get to ignore the cost that's actually in the top right. The card itself forces you to choose one or more additional costs, and those you will still have to pay for. If you can't or don't want to, then you don't get to cast the spell at all. With discover you can at least always just put it in your hand, but it's still anti-synergistic.
@@Felixr2 Of course you are right (I rarely play/build cascade/discover so didn't notice anti-synergy). Do LOW CMC card with additionnal cost have a positive aspect (tutorable) ?
@@erwanprn5491 Since Spree in particular only appears on instants and sorceries (so far), I also limited my search to that. A few applications I found:
Most spree spells are tutorable by Spellseeker (search for instant or sorcery with mv 2 or less when it enters).
Won't lose as much life to Ad Nauseam.
Copiable with Expansion (copies will keep all the modes you chose)
Can more easily use Abaddon the Despoiler's effect (and thanks to many being mv 1, can consistently cascade into your mv 0 spells like Inevitable Betrayal or Gaea's Will)
Doesn't add much to the total mana value exiled with Dance with Calamity (but still has poor synergy with the casting for free part)
Most things that care about low mv do so because they let you cast the spell for free, or only care about low mv permanents. Some things (like plotting cards in the context of standard and limited) might get value out of simply having it as an option (cards like Jace Reawakened and Kellan Joins Up come to mind). Still doesn't seem great though.
I wish there was a symbol or border or something visual for abilities that trigger once a turn or "only activate as a sorcery". You get so used to abilities being usuable at any time that its the top misplay I see in the middle of a crazy game, especially when a card is new or rarely seen.
Or like how Inventor’s Fair absolutely has Metalcraft for its tutor ability, but because it doesn’t say “Metalcraft” and its requirement is at the end, it can lead to people to try to search even tho they can’t.
I'm really baffled they haven't added a symbol for "Activate only as a sorcery". Custom cards were using an hourglass symbol for that 10 years ago. And it's still so easy to miss buried at the end of a wall of text.
I LOVE THE GREAT TRAIN HEIST ! Awesome card, awesome mechanic, won me so many games at prerelease!! Love casting it and saying 'in goin on a spree!!'
Question: Is the expectation that the plus symbol by the cost to be for anything with a potential additional cost (eg Kicker) or just spells that have an enforced additional cost? (This might include cards like Goblin Grenade.) Obviously we can't say anything about what WILL happen, because things change over time. And this is of course assuming that there's good feedback on how it pans out.
Invasion block was my favorite Standard (Type 2 as it was called back then) to play in and Kicker was a great mechanic back then and still is today. Seeing Spree in the new set was really cool and it's my favorite new mechanic in a very long time and I really hope to see it revisited a lot going forward.
1:20 - I see what you did there.
i've literally never noticed the plus sign. which is a shame, cuz the flashback gravestone was always something i liked. it really made "this spell does something unusual in your graveyard" feel special and noticable.
and noticing the plus sign would've made spree cards easier to understand, back when i saw my first one!
I really like the '+' in the corner and it reminds me of the old Gravestone for cards that had Flashback in the old days. I would love to see reprints of Kicker/Multi-Kicker use the '+' and even pushing that for a the Gravestone to return for cards that have abilities in the graveyard. Perhaps non instant/sorcery cards with 'from the hand' activations could have a symbol too? We all know what a Miracle card looks like so it's obvious when you draw it that you need to immediately consider whether to use it or not. I consider this basically the same thing.
One thing to note about Final Flourish (5:15) and its Kicker cost: Since it doesn't include any extra mana, and sacrificing something would be written as an additional cost in the text box anyway, I don't think the drawback of adding up additional costs even comes into effect here at all.
I adore the new + for spree!! Itd be interesting to see if this was applied to something like kicker itself, whether the plus or perhaps a >>> style pattern with the same arrow like in the spree frame but bonus lines at the end to show “hey, this has an alternative/additional casting cost” or whatever. Obviously would need some planning but I dunno just feels pretty neat:) love the videos as always!
Spree is so easy to digest and I personally love it. It flows nicely like kicker, multikicker and flashback.
Yes, the plus in the cost looks great. Which is why you should bring back the gravestone. That was a good idea too. Anger really sticks out when I discard it, so why doesn't Ox of Agonas?
I really like Spree as a mechanic and can't wait to try it out in my local prerelease. I haven't even gotten a chance to play with the cards yet, and I'm already hoping we see it again someday! The modal nature of it makes for some very interesting design space.
I did remember the costs and kicker/flashback costs. But I played the mentioned cards a LOT when first playing magic and those two blocks are part of my DNA
I like spree cards but I find it unintuitive that you cannot play them for their face manacost while not choosing any additionnal modes (things that you could want to do in fringe situations)
The reminder text explains it. But I didn't really register it until I saw the video. So I completely agree.
I do like the templating on the Spree mechanic, it feels modern in a good way.
I love Good Morning Magic, thanks Gavin. Kicker has stuck around and its 300 variants because its just good for the game, its in game modality. One of my favorite decks is actually simic kicker from ZNR.
I don't like the plus sign element look personally. First of all, I don't believe most (or any) players fan their cards to show the mana cost, its just not how people hold playing cards. Arena also doesn't fan it this way , though Arena superimposes the mana costs on top of the cards for readability. The video shows a left fan which is unnatural
Because Spree doesn't have any non-kicker bonuses, literally the card does nothing unless kicked, it doesn't serve as confusing to me at all, basically the card can't be confused with how much to pay since it has no initial effect
I do miss though on flashback when the tombstone symbol was on the cards with flashback, it made it easier to see it in the gy, and it was in the top left corner. Please bring that back!
You’re not wrong: the flashback cost is easier to remember. I couldn’t remember any of the kicker costs you put up.
I also like the + but I am part of the camp that thinks it is a little too small.
When i was a kid we all loved volvers. We all picked a tri color and had diff decks.
Invasion block and the block after was the most fun standard has ever been!!
I would love to see the + or something like it on cards with an additional cost, mandatory or optional. Kicker, Tormenting Voice, etc. It's a nice heads-up that there's more to the cost than simply what is in the corner.
Question about Spree templating. What motivated the use of em-dashes instead of colons?
My hunch is that it’s not the full cost, and means they can lay it out like a ‘sum’ more easily
Great video. Concerning the + near mana sign, I’ll have to get the cards in hand for a final say but right now it feels not visually pleasing nor intuitive.
I had noticed and appreciated the plus. I like it a lot. I like the design of the plus, it’s not to big, but still nice and noticeable.
I hope we see more spree or other forms of “modal kicker” cards in the future.
my only issue with the plus on spree cards is that i wish it was a bit bigger?
i find that it gets a little swallowed up in the top right of the card border
Lol so now I have to show everyone this video and convince my EDH pod to Rule 0 that Spree, Overload, Bestow etc should be counted as kicker when I play Hallar or Verazol kicker decks
Sounds like a sweet rule 0 to me 😎
I like the use of the plus, there is just something about the placement visually that seems off to me. A minor complaint, yes, but I wonder what it would have looked like next to the mana pips.
Keep making behind the scenes of design vids. Always fascinating!
So the issue with kicker is the formatting? So if the spell is 2R and the kicker cost is R, why not present the information differently? e.g. Goblin Ruinblaster 2R to get a 2/1 haste (kicker 2RR) If Goblin Ruinblaster was kicked, ETB destroy target nonbasic.
I've noticed a similar problem with newer players who don't quite understand how kicker works. Because of things like overload and flashback showing the entire cost next to the keyword, they cast the spell for only its kicker cost and ignore the base value, thinking that's just how the mechanic works.
The plus in the mana cost of the card is a really nice touch I think, but I worry if this will introduce new instances of other symbols being made and placed near the mana cost of the card. Would we see an asterisk or an ampersand placed here in the future? For spree this works well, but Im not sure if this is a design space that is worth exploring further for the sake of making rules clearer
I love the little plus for basically the reasons you outlined.
The plus in the corner is nice for knowing that spell in hand has a kicker...but the plus signs don't somehow alter the math of figuring out a spell's total cost. We have to add the numbers up either way. I don't see how that was ever an issue.
Looking back at evoke I think it might be fun to look at mechanics that ended up being used in ways that the author did not intend them to be used, such as cascade being used to cheat suspend costs. The evoke cost was, for instance, used to cheat big elementals into play for little mana by using black cantrips on them that kept them alive after they hit the field. It would be fun to know how later designs would fix some of the loopholes and oversights that were present in older designs.
I think the plus in the corner is a very cool way to indicate that there are required additional costs.
Gonna have to wait to play with it, tho with variable add costs and separating the "initial" cost up top with the choices cost only per one, I feel like I have to overwrite the entwine or escalate reflex since we "add piecemeal" instead of a kicker chunk.
In playing it might be less an issue but in evaluating cost effectiveness, I feel like mentally working backwards both that the "main" effect is last (due to spell resolution order) on top of evaluating each combinarion: Final showdown is a 6 mana instant wrath, or 2 mana for dress down or protection or 7 one of those + the wrath or 8 total for the whole picture (dress down opponents, protect your beater, wrath).
It's a bit if it's own puzzle and it's way easier to think of the one choice or all instead of the partial selections for chunking maybe but I approve of the end results just that I need to work bottom up to see it
Back after a fun Pre-Release and month of playing. Think the same issue remains (needing to do math) even when I'm aware of the spree card as it is. It's certainly cleaner than the "volver" style of iterations, and going forward I definitely still want Spree-like kicker cards (variable costs per effect), but ironically while having the Mana Cost + marks the card, it ironically breaks apart the Initial cost > effect cost so while it's easy to tack on each effect while paying for it, it's again hard to "cost evaluate" anything outside 1 or all effects at a time.
The plus is nice, but what I really want to talk about is my surprise at the bundled costs performing better. I always have to stop myself to remember that Overload isn't additive, but an alternative. This is because its an additional effect (basically, since you're adding extra targets) whereas something like Bestow works as a separate cost (to me) because you're getting an entirely different effect than if you cast the card proper.
To me that should be the distinction, although I do appreciate the ability to change the colours, and its a shame that the plus in spree probably wouldn't work for kicker cards, since they don't have to be kicked.
I like the little things like the + on cost and the graveyard icon on flashback cards!
In unfortunate accident though the + is harder to read due to its background color being the same color as the card, i think for black cards it should have been reversed.
Nice video. I like Spree as a mechanic - yay to more modal cards - and I don't personally have a feeling one way or another about the + at the top of the card, but I can see how it might serve as a reminder for some players, so that's a good thing.
Spree cards are very flexible and well rounded to fit any scenarios! they are great ! I would like to know more about ward, protection and hexproof. I do like some protection knights.
I guess it's a bit late now, but I think I would have preferred that Spree cards had a full pized + pip in the cost to indicate that it's not the full cost to play the card. Meanwhile the smaller supertext + could be used for Kicker type cards where there is an optional additional cost.