I´d love to hear your thoughts on this Marcinelle/Clear Line-matter. Do they look like the same thing? Have you been exposed to either of these styles in your market?
Personally, I always thought of Marcinelle school as clear line because, well, most comics in that style do keep the drawings simple and in line with the definition of clear line. Clear strong lines sometimes of varied width and no hatching, tell me 90 to 99% of The Smurfs of Asterix doesn't fit that description? Also, I thought the channel died a few months ago when you announced you had health issues and I'm shocked to see it going. Hope you got better.
@@AlucardNoir You make very good observations with Asterix and Smurfs. Peyo was a master in simplifying the panels. As you point out - the lines were clear as were the colors inside them. However the tube-legs, big noses and wild movement lines are the give away that tells these are Marcinelle style. Panels like the ones where Asterix villagers fight with each other would not please Herges eyes. Those fight panels are just big movement lines and collection of heads, legs and arms. Clear line would require a static picture with all characters frozen and visible. As a style Marcinelle is more flexible to my eye. It was also created by many artists. With Clear Line Herge - just one man - got into position where he pushed artists to follow his visual goals. So the style was very uniform at the beginning even by different artists. Both of these styles have evolved and merged since so much that I’ve stopped making the distinction long ago. I think the value of knowing about these styles has more to do with history of BD than being able to categorize them. I had a rough year. I went through all my cancer treatments and now things look promising. And thanks for helping with that Marvel/DC mystery🤘🏻😄🤘🏻
Thanks! Good of you to spread the gospel around. I was a storyboard trainee, along with the wonderful Jukka Murtosaari (R.I.P) in Los Angeles back in 1989, and Phil Mendez, our boss, arranged for a meeting with the great Stan Lee. We took a bunch of our sketches along for him to see, and while Jukka's work could very well fit in the Marvel universe, Mr. Lee told me right out my drawings were looking 'very European, too European'. That was where the line was drawn back then. European vs. American. Albeit Hanna-Barbera had imported the Smurfs already! When I returned to Finland, Jukka stayed back in LA, later working for Disney and others.
You dont understand how much this video means to me , to find an English video about BD is very valuable to me , thank you so much for this my friend..Subscribed!
Well, I am happy to reply that you don’t understand how much your comment means to me😊Starting this I did consider nobody is interested. Turned out there are many passionate readers out there. Great to have you here. May I ask what country you’re from and do you have easy access to European comics? By asking this I try to learn what type of content would help my followers most.
This is just great! I'm a belgian comic fan and i can assure you that is great to be a comic fan in Belgium. it is our daily bread; lots of good shops with comics from all over the world.
I'm openly jealous. In desperation to get even deeper into Franco-Belgian comics I tried to start learning French through Duolingo😰But it's so very hard. It's like opposite of Finnish in every way.
I grew up in France, even here very few youtuber tackle these themes. We have A LOT of youtubers dedicated to Manga and American comics but noone seems to care much for those classics or even the current francobelgian industry which produce so much great stuff. I'm very glad to see someone talking in english about this because it's so obscure.
US Comics and Manga also receive much higher view counts and that drives the content. When I started I decided not to care about the numbers. So far I have held on to that principle but you never know when I'll sell my soul😜But I am curious why French youtubers look away from the treasure they already have. Maybe it is the classic case of being too close to the matter to see it. Happy to have you with us! My next video should be about Angoulême Comics Festival in France which is like visiting the Fort Knox of European Comics.
At some point, Franquin got in a fight with Dupuis and decided to move to Tintin, where he created Modeste et Pompon--written partly by Goscinny, who would go on to create Asterix and Pilote. Eventually, Franquin didn't leave Spirou and ended up working for both magazines.
Yes, Franquin was the only creator to have contract simultaneously with both Spirou and Tintin. Egmont Finland published translated Modeste et Pompon album just recently which I now have in my tbr-pile. Unfortunately they only collectively mention which writers did stories for that album(Goscinny being one of them) but don't specify them by each story.
@@exmagnolia My album lists also Franquin, Peyo and Tibet as writers😅A very colorful cocktail! I'm happy they published this album but going that extra mile and listing writer with each story would be appreciated. They only publish these albums for nostalgia as they know it's mostly people my age who still buy comics like this.
Congratulations on this amazing video!!!👏👏👏👏👏🏆 Can i tell you that you are the first person to go into depth regarding educating many of us (outside of Europe) regarding the specifics of the comics styles. This was very informative. You described everything clearly and precise. I only hope that more comics fans will be interested to learn more. I actually discovered that Cinebook started publishing (in ENGLISH) 11x8 inches Lucky Luke: The Complete Collection. i think they are on the 4th volume and they go into a lengthy introduction of Morris's background. I cannot wait to see what you will put out next regarding the Marcinelle School and European Comics in general. Thanks for your thorough research and thanks for this great video! Cheers!
Thank you so much. I do wonder when making these if anyone is interested so your comment means a lot. Cinebook has made a big favor to Lucky Luke fans. I think they´ve translated all albums to english which must mean over 80 in total! I prefer single albums over integral collections. But the best collected editions offer sometimes so good extras that I even think about double dipping. I´m currently having this inner struggle with Blueberry. I have all the albums but the Finnish Integrals have interesting extras that have made me looking for second hand copies. I may need to take a look inside those Cinebook Lucky Luke Collected editions too...Maybe one day Cinebook sends me all their books as I talk so much about them or their characters😜I think I only need 100K more subs and it´s a given thing. Joking aside I know already there´ll be quite a lot Cinebook related content coming to my channel.
For my French A-Level, I'm doing a research project and presentation about the Franco-Belgium comic book scene and your videos are a saving grace. There's quite limited info out there about this topic, but these videos are so detailed yet so comprehensible - thank you very much for making them!
Wow! This is quite unexpected but pleasant honor. Especially when making this info better available was one of my main goals. Comments like this make me feel like I’ve achieved something😊 And I am openly envious to anyone who understands french language. It’s the Ultimate Final Boss-key to European comics.
at 11:00 its mentioned about a comic(s) called Asterix (maybe spelled differently idk) being widely known in the U.S. and as a 30yo american who knows a little more than the avarage non-comic fan demographics I've got to say i had to google that. that being said, yeah i recognize the art but those are predominately regarded as newspaper comics in the U.S. and tgose have fallen out of fashion in the last couple of decades because newspaper subscriptions have plumetted. also I'd like to note that among comics fans I highly doubt most americans know the lore of a series like that l very deeply (at leastbnot relatively to marvel/dc stuff). but i just wanted to say that. i love these videos because you're educating me on all these comic facts that are in a sense industry insider information.
This comment is pure gold for me. Getting an "insider view" from another market is so helpful that I cannot stress that enough. Thank you for taking the time to write this. As I underlined in the video we are all differently exposed to comics. Things that are obvious to me are rare and exotic to others - and vice versa. Big percentage of subscribers on this channel are from USA and many of them are hungry for more info about European comics. Comments like the one you just made helps me to understand my followers better. That helps me to make more meaningful content. And if you have any questions or request for videos I´ll help as much as I can.
@@analogcomics glad to be a part of the conversation! I want to know about less "realistic" art styles as in the U.S. all the mainstream wants to talk about is the Avengers and its gotten soooo over saturated haha. I know that we have a few DOZEN underground fandoms of say, Spirou who I'm very interested in the style and expressiveness of. These spaces don't even end up having a voice in animation/comics topics via the mainstream in passing though. It's a shame bc I see that giant smile and I think "this is going to be whacky and hilarious.". In the 90s it would have been more popular as well. On the bright side, people here are getting tired of Marvel and Batman and all that andni think soon more indie titles will break out. Like American comics "Locke and Key" or "Umbrella Academy" and "Invincible" have recently streaming services (although those are more realisticly rendered ones, one day American's will stop shying away from more fun stylized characters!).
@@richatdastkey3555 You touch many interesting topics here. The ”less realistic” style seems to be the general image of BD for many. And it is often seen as the same thing as childish or at least only for children. Bc of this readers miss many great stories - and they miss the fact that BD has also ”really realistic” comics too. Many of them are so realistic they have to be censored for US market😄 Manga is really popular in USA at the moment. I find this a good thing. It means that readers are already getting used to something new. It may be easier then to try some European comics too. I’ll be talking about the ”less realistic” BD quite a lot as I want to document that part of my collection. Asterix will be there quite soon if all goes well. Thanks again for your input. I take the opportunity to wish you as happy Christmas too.
as a kid I naturally didn't care about different "schools" or the like... actually I thought of the style of "Asterix" and Lucky Luke" as the way comics look like. Later on when I saw some Tintin it was pretty clear that these comics are somehow different & it was hard not to pick up the catchphrase of "clear line" along the ways - but frankly: I had not given too many thoughts about the hows and whys of these differences. As you said it: we were so much exposed to these comics that we didn't felt any reason to think about any further. Much later on I've become aware of the whole Spirou/Dupuis & Tintin-dichotomy... actually this process is still ongoing. Btw: the term "Marcinelle school" would not ring a bell with me two or three years ago... over here it's usually, at least: much more often described as "franco-belgian funny style". As you point out there are some overlaps, just take the different proportions: clear line usually uses more realistic ones, while the Marcinelle school draws rather "head-heavy" ones. But for an instance Tillieux longed to do comics with more realistic proportions, despite Dupuis breathing down his neck to use "Franquin like proportions" instead. As an answer Tillieux very often drew his characters into the foreground, so that he could cut off their legs from the waist downwards & had not to draw dwarf-legs. On the other side of the border you have a guy like Roger Leloup who has always drew his characters with way too big heads. Sth else I just learned through wikipedia: Allegedly Joost Swarte coined the term "ligne claire" much later (1976), so it was not there from the beginning. That was a surprise to me, because I've always thought that Hergé himself was the originator of that catchy name... anyhow: I actually looked for infos about Joost Swarte to get some answers about his "postmodern ligne-claire"-style (as I would call it) and learned that it is usually called "the atom style" - there you go, we live and learn :) Thanks for your video, looking forward to the next videos in this series!
Your thought on childhood summarizes this nicely. Classic European comics looked what we all thought comics look like. They were everywhere and you didn´t really have to make an effort to get them. Just a natural part of life like the sun rise. I didn´t care about the "schools" either. And don´t really care about them today. But it´s a handy way to make these comics feel more familiar to new comers. And helps to simplify the history of these comics, too. I had a brief segment on Swarte/Clear Line in my Clear Line video. I think it was interesting to mention as Herge himself didn´t like the term. I avoided Tillieux and Yoko Tsuno on purpose😬And it was for the reasons you mentioned. It would´ve made the video much longer and probably too complicated. For this reason I left out Atomic-style too. For me Atomic Style name just means that all styles - even original - evolve in the end. I really hope they´re not going to give a name to every little phase😰 I try to avoid the cork sniffing in public but I can tell my thoughts to you confidentially here. Don´t tell anyone I said this🤐 Although Yoko Tsuno was published in Spirou it´s seen as Clear Line. I do think it is Clear Line. It´s line work and colors are more cartoony - very possibly the Dupuis presence showing. But it never lost its Clear Line stiffness. The paint is new but the inside is straight from Herges school. BTW after your Gil Jourdan vid I realized I missed the Finnish Integral😞I was certain it would not sell out so fast and put my money on other things. Oh, the regret!
yes, I agree on everything... Yoko Tsuno belongs to clear line all things considered. Even though: corksniffing is fun ... or in my case: beercap sniffing :) as to Gil Jourdan: you're certainly aware of the Tillieux books by fantagraphics, aren't you? @@analogcomics
@@earlgrey862 I do prefer the beercap sniffing too💪🏻I was definitely not aware of these Fantagraphics versions! You sent me on a mad dash to find out more but I could only find one album still available. Looks like I missed them too. 😅I’m still confident the Finnish collection will pop out as second hand somewhere.
Hello! Been a while since I watched one of your video! I'm from Belgium and I've been looking at videos from people outside the Franco-Belgian sphere to see how our BD's are percieved. It's been very interesting. You nicely synthetised the differences of the two schools of our Classics. PS: Your "Charleroi" is fine. "Charles Roi"
This is brilliant! Inception-style layers here. I as European been looking for views of BD from outside Europe and then you take it one step further from inside the very Franco-Belgian scene where I can be seen as outsider. This made me smile😄 You put me in the position of the readers I spoke about in this very video. I´m glad if I didn´t make any hard mistakes as I have already more vids planned for Franco-Belgian content. My idea was to first grind through these most obvious terms around BD and then focus on actual series/characters. I feel like that change will happen after this video.
If I can recomand a comic about the artists from the Marcinalle school, that would be "Gringos Locos" from Yann and Schwartz. This is the real story of Jijé who decided to go with his family to the USA because of his fear of World War 3 in 1948. He brought along with him his two students Morris and Franquin in hopes to be hired to the Walt Disney Studio. The books covers this two years trip from New-York up to Mexico. (I don't know in which languages it has been translated. Usualy Dupuis covers the german and spanish languages)
@@deezee2965 Wow🤩I know this story. It seems to have almost mystical nature within Franco-Belgian BD history. I would love to read that as comic! Especially when it’s done by two geeks like Yann & Schwartz. I didnt know such comic book existed. Thanks for the heads up. I need to check the available languages. Sometimes books like this get Finnish translation too but there is no logic which get the treatment.
Well done :) If you want to know more about Franquin , There is a book ‘Et Franquin créa la gaffe’ by Numa Sadoul and André Franquin ( publisher Glénat ). It’s interview sessions with André Franquin. Sadly it is only available in french I think . I have a copy and it is doable to translate to English with the Google lens app. Another important person related to this topic is Yvan Delporte editor in chief of Spirou at that time. Kudos from Belgium
Excellent video about this kind of genre. Usually I only hear about the line claire and I didn’t know that the Marcinelle school was a thing. Very well explained and keep the good work! Thanks 👍
Interesting video! I've grown up in Poland reading Asterix and watching Smurfs, but also many different comics (most notably Donald Duck series) and cartoons, so I was never attached to one particular style. But I always appreciated the humour and beauty of Asterix albums. Now, after many years, I'm reading Tintin for the first time and the "clean line" style is more unusual for me than the Marcinelle School. I'd like to learn drawing in style of Uderzo, so while rereading many albums I started to copy his art and I learnt a lot from that! One can quickly see how important is the nose of a character, how round and fluid are the lines, how articulated the fingers are and how there is much more expressed in general exaggerated pose than in the face (and eyes). It's also interesting how some of the Uderzo's panels showing panoramas of ancient architecture (clearly meant to be more realistic and true to historical sources) are more like the clean-line style. I tried to gather some more theoretical information about the style and heard for the first time about the Marcinelle School. I'm surprised there are no many materials available analysing it. You offered some general information, and that's good. I think it would be better to show some details from comic pages instead of a whole page - the visual examples didn't show much, and I'd imagine they would be even harder to read for someone who hadn't already investigated the style. I'd love to see deep analysis of one author at a time, how the characters and scenes are constructed. Especially seeing how broad is the range of styles - some are cleaner, some are more expressive. I liked how you pointed out the background architecture in Lucky Luke. I'm really surprised there aren't many (or even any) videos analysing the details of Uderzo's or Morris' styles. And many "how to draw Asterix" videos don't even render Asterix similarly to the original character! I guess that's because of the lack of popularity of these comics in USA :(
I agree 100% about Uderzo’s expressive details. He has uncanny talent to draw more information into characters. It’s like additional script on top of the written one. I have thought of doing separate vids about certain important writers/artists. Having said that I don’t know if I’ll go as deep as you’d like into their techniques - at least for awhile. I feel there is too little info available about European comics in english and to change that I have to peel the onion layer by layer. In practice this means I have to keep these first vids very broad. I feel like my current vids are more akin to introducing these subjects than explaining them. The whole subject of BD is actually almost freightening😅There’s just so much to talk about! I try to divide it into gazillion smaller pieces. Your comment is super interesting. You come from a more demanding angle as most subs in this channel are readers rather than artists. I really appreciate the time you took for these ideas. As for more content on drawing Marcinelle - or any BD style - there might some in YT but propably in French. They’re doing disservice to themselves by not adding english text to videos. If You’re really hard core after knowledge nuggets one of my future vids might be useful for you.😎Though not revealing more at this point.
@@analogcomics Thanks for kind reply! Of course, I agree and I see your point about starting with a broader perspective, because - as you accurately said in the video - the exposure to BDs outside Europe is very little. If you want to reach wider audience, you'd have to start with something more general (and in this the video above is succesful) and later go into details. I learnt about Marcinelle School just recently even though Asterix, Lucky Luke, Smurfs and some others were present in my life for many years! I just meant to say that if you find time, will and health in future to deep diver into styles of particular artists, with greater attention to details, then it might be a good idea, because it's a niche topic with little information available in English :) I'm fortunate to know a bit of French and I try to seek some obscure information (in case of Uderzo - there are a few useful interviews and recordings of him drawing - even the order of elements says something about his thinking :)) but even then - as you're aware - it's really hard to find good analysis or collected summaries. I make a strong generalization, but I feel many French creators don't care too much about being accessible to foreigners ;) And indeed, the topic of BDs is huge, and the more I look into it, it gets even more... bottomless ;) I focus on a few "classic" artists and my collection is relatively small, but it's already overwhelming in terms of styles and inspirations :) On the other hand, it's cool - I believe anyone could find a style and artist interesting for them! I'm looking forward to whatever you're teasing here ;) Good luck with next videos!
Your comment couldn´t be more satisfying if I wrote it myself. I had the feeling many readers have already been enjoying Marcinelle School without knowing it. Of course the most important part is that enjoying💪☺🤘
Thank you very much for this video, a very interesting topic. I wish you would talk some day about the Atom style, which for me is the perfect marriage between the Clear Line and the Marcinelle style (Yves Chaland being one of its greatest creators). Greetings from Chile!
European comics is indeed full of interesting subjects but get too little attention. I'll do my part/best to fix that. I won't say never to Atom Style. Having said that I feel like covering some European comics next instead of terms and concepts. So many comics that deserve some love. In fact next one will be quite personal case for me🤘 My best wishes to Chile where I'd like to be right now as I've been shoveling snow for two weeks😄
Thanks for educating me. I wasn’t aware there is name for this style of European comics! As a boy in the 70s, I discovered Tintin and Asterix at the same time (at the public library.) I was never attracted to the Asterix style but loved Herge’s clear line art. I always checked out the Tintin books, but never borrowed an Asterix book. It was a bit frustrating to me because I wanted to explore those comics as much as I had immersed into Tintin’s adventures. I still can’t bring myself to read Asterix. So very informative, A.C.!
I can see why the more cartoony style of Asterix(and other Marcinelle school comics) is not for everyone. I took a time-out from it in my teens and "found" it again later and have enjoyed it enormously since. But you got me intrigued. Did you try to read Asterix and then decided against it, or was the art so uninteresting you didn't read it at all? I'm currently planning some content around Asterix so any comments for and against is welcome.
I am fascinated by the differences between comics, manga, and BD. The most important difference, I think, is the rate of production. Manga - 20pg/week Comics - 5 BD - 1 And everything follows that. Manga has the most fluid, readable, visual style with minimal text. A style that inherently takes more pages. Emphasis is on facial expression and character. BD has the most pretty style. The slow production rate allows for lavish detail and color. Emphasis on backgrounds and setting. Covers time quickly within narrative summary and not much space for character development. Comics are in the middle - disposable, lazy art nonetheless cluttered with significant text. Emphasis on figures and anatomy. (Or the text, if you’re talking about the vertigo school) Further marring the US market is the prevalence of corporate rather than creator own characters.
Very interesting take on the differences of these three comics cultures. Production speed is definitely something I've thought about too. Of course comics are business in all markets but the way it shows in the end products varies greatly due to differences in business cultures. I have to say that one of the biggest obstacles for me in getting into US superhero comics has been the biz. When I read those comics it's too easy to see The Business. It's like watching a movie in dark theater while somebody next to you is fiddling with his phone killing the magic of the movie itself. I know the business is always there in all comics but I don't want to see it while reading.
Marcinelle is, or used to be, the city where Dupuis was based. The Marcinelle school is really the Spirou school. It revolves mostly around Franquin. Tintin was based in Bruxelles and so la ligne claire is also know as Brussels school.
Just to say that as a Gen X Brit I was well aware of Asterix and Tintin and the like. We had them in our school library as they were seen as being a bit educational. We also got English Asterix cartoons like 'Asterix and the big fight' from 1989 and the English dub of 'The 12 tasks of Asterix' from 1976. Also they used to show the Belvision 'Tintin' cartoons on kids telly too. Another one I only recently found out about was a strip called 'Jinks' which appeared in the 1970 Lion comic annual. I suspect it's an English translation of a French or Belgian original but I'm not familiar enough to know which one. I always thought that the difference between the clear line and Marcinelle schools was just the various artists different personal styles.
Brilliant video and an excellent channel!! So looking forward to watching your previous videos and keeping up on future uploads! The UK certainly could use some more euro representation, such a wealth of stories, ideas and art that go unnoticed. We have a few UK localised translations of various albums which are pretty interesting as usually we pretty much get whatever America translates and it can vary in its...americanisms. While Asterix is well known generally, I hesitate to say it's that widespread amongst the younger generation, usually older people and they'd probably have to be interested in comics anyway. Tintin probably reigns supreme here and even then I doubt alot of people have read it, they usually know the character.
Thank you for your kind words. My next video might be UK publication actually... UK market leaning heavily towards US selection is historically the most unfortunate detail in European comics history. If UK market would´ve been introduced and familiarized to Franco-Belgian comics right after WW2 we might have a much more wide spread availability globally. Having translation done for UK would immediately allow selling to many other markets too. Just like fans of Marvel/DC have to read in english in Finland if they want more content than just what little is available in Finnish.
@@analogcomics Excellent, sounds like a treat! It is a shame, would be interesting to see that alternate universe, maybe it wouldn't have resulted in the UK Comics Campaign Council and a lot of interesting artistic movements and works would've been developed without censorship...wishful thinking! Is there much of a community around digital translation of foreign comics in Finland, as opposed to the official printed works that are published there?
@@JulesWebbAnimation The UK comic I’m thinking of talking about is a fun and great read but I can’t recommend it to anyone🤔 But then again that is the reason I want to talk about it… I don’t know if such a digital translation community exists. I admit being ignorant when it comes to stuff like that. We do have strong presence of European comics in Finnish language. There is quite a lot to buy through official publications though some very interesting series are not available. Also if such sites already exist in English it makes the Finnish version less needed.
I've always been aware of the two schools but never rememdered the name lol. I always called this style the lucky luke and spirou style (or comic dynamic style). I tend to prefer this style in comparison to the clear line style (i like both but still). I find this style to have a more "organic" kind of feel and that it allows for some controlled chaos
You touch important issue here. I believe part of Clear Line terms success lies on its memorable name. Just like manga or anime. Thats just perfect for marketing.
I try to avoid not becoming an authority on these matters🫣 - despite my videos. Also I have not really read this comics but I have briefly looked at some(Looked really interesting!)Just with that info I’d say I didn’t get any Marcinelle vibe. It looked like artist was aiming for more realistic look. That would put it closer to Clear Line. Having said that I didn’t see it as pure Clear Line either. Camera angles and details felt more modern. BTW There is a third style from Europe that was given a name:Atomic style. I am reluctant to speak about it as it is a more vague and harder to explain. I think this jerome comic happened when Clear Line was making a come back after being out of style for awhile. Many comics of that era were dubbed as Atomic Style. I’d have to know the series better to say more.
I heard that one of the things that prevented Asterix from being popular in the US was how POC were represented, I don't think it was early on but I heard some Asterix album were removed from some schools because they use blackface type caricature... Which is kinda true, both Asterix and Lucky Luke have recurring racialized characters that calls to mind old racist stereotype (the pirate in Asterix and the chinese character in every Lucky Luke album) it's not true for every artist of this style but it's there in the two main books. To me it's one of those cases where the style is obviously trying to caricature everyone but I get as an adult how it can be perceived. Conrad, the current Asterix artist is one of the best at reproducing Uderzo's style and one of his earlier works "Les innommables" was a mature adventure story taking place in China. This book is interesting regarding this thematic because it doesn't pull any punches oh boy : no one is pretty, most characters are chinese and Conrad really stretches the classical asian caricature to its limit as you can't find two chinese that look the same in this book. I remember that it... kind of amazed me that he was able to get so much unique character designs out of it yet... It's a very thin line I wouldn't blame people who see this and think of the book as racist.
Which is weird too because on the clear line side of the story Hergé is heavily criticized for his caricature of Japanese in "Le lotus bleu" and he had to redraw panels of "Tintin en Amérique" on re-release because he draw some background characters with a blackface. Of course there's a larger issue with Hergé as some albums are almost cancelled today, but remembering that after pointing out what could be deemed "problematic" in the Marcinelle school makes me wonder how this kind of indignation works.
@@Bubblegob This is always a larger issue than these single albums. But I do wonder if after reading Asterix albums the only thing one walks off with is the impression that they are racist. One of the biggest reasons for its success is precisely its never ending stereotyping which includes every race, age, gender, nationality and what ever common nominator you can think of. Nothing and no-one gets a free ticket and it is beyond obvious that the creators are not out there to hurt anyone. First albums of Tintin is a different case. They have clear propaganda and racism. Then again they are also boring and unfunny - mostly because of the above-mentioned reasons. In general I try to steer away from this topic - though it is interesting - as it's almost guaranteed not to stay calm and fact based discussion between adults. I love drama in stories but can't stand it in real life.😄 I will add though that more than the details of art in comic book panels I am worried about people who demand to decide for me what type of content I can see/read. The essence of their message is that they have seen/read it and they can handle it but I couldn't and I cannot question their superiority in wisdom and morals. What makes this terrible certainty frightening is that it stems from honest desire to do good. It is a powerfuI motivator and easy angle to defend. And I even agree with their noble goals - but just not with the means.
@@analogcomics You're right that's definitely one of the biggest appeal for Asterix, you sound like a real fan. To me it is a product of its time someone who wouldn't like humorist doing accents probably wouldn't be a big fan for me I find Goscinny's writting fun and smart enough to make it work. I think this is the kind of reflexion one comes to as an educator finding the book in a school and seeing some things they deem problematic without knowing much about the book. I'm mentioning all this because when I heard about it I wondered if that was it, if big nose style never made it in the state because of that kind of thing. But I guess it never stopped DBZ.
In his adventures Asterix (together with Obelix and Idefix) visits many countries with an (anachronistic) caricatural and cliché representation of the natives. Nobody is spared : the Germans, the English, the French, the Belgians, the Egyptians, the Spanish, ...
I’ve never heard of Marcinelle, but the difference is blindingly obvious. The same difference that divides neoclassicism from romanticism, and can be seen in all genres of visual art. I think clear line is primarily art for people who don’t like or understand art - accountants, engineers, architects, research scientists. The precision and sterility appeals to them. Marcinelle is vibrant, bravura, virtuoso - only possible for people with innate talent. Whereas anyone with patience can construct a passable clear line with calipers and a ruler.
I absolutely love to hear comments from readers with a different backgrounds about European comics. It helps me out of my own tunnel vision. Clear Line does look stiff next to Marcinelles wild and unrestricted appearance. Having been marinated in both styles since before I learn to read I like both. For me clear line gives more wow-effects on panels as a whole. Many Blake & Mortimer panels for example have hauntingly captivating scenery and settings. I don't admire the line itself in these comics rather than what is achieved with it. Marcinelle-style captivates me more as a line work(ironically) and pure free hand drawing talent. While in Angoulême I saw original black & white pages from Andre Franquin and Albert Uderzo and it was one of the best experiences I've had in comics. Just raw skill and talent. Tintin in b&w doesn't have the same effect on me.
I really hope one day you can dedicate some time to other European authors/realities besides those from the Franco-Belgian market. The richness and variety is overwhelming. By the way R.I.P Bob De Groot, one of the greats from the “big nose” lines.
Hello rewanji🤘Always good to hear from you. I´m pretty sure there´ll be comics from other countries too(Some ideas already for Italy, Spain and Finland). Having said that I am currently having a blast with Franco-Belgian comics which does effect the content quite much. This video series with blue backgrounds in thumbnails is dedicated to Franco-Belgian content. For most readers it will be the gateway into European comics anyway. It´s also content that is most likely available in english in case someone wants to read them after seeing the vid. But yes, my intention is to display also lesser known comics that I like regardless of their availability. Sad to hear about Bob De Groot passing away. I wasn´t aware of this. Now I see it happened last week. His Clifton series hasn´t lost its appeal although I´ve read them since 70´s.
It definitely started with heavy Marcinelle influence. Then the art started moving towards more realistic and and at the end it was moving back to cartoony style. Valerian wasnt published in Tintin or Spirou but in French magazine Pilote(like Asterix). I am also actively trying not to get too tangled in styles comparison. I am definitely not the authority on this issue. Having said that I am always curious how other readers see european styles. We all focus on different details so we see the same things quite differently too. I dont like elitism so I was suprised to find a bit of it from myself. Being right about these style issues shouldnt become important - and that should then include myself😅
The first few Valerian & Laueline episodes were published in Spirou, and were very Marcinelle-looking, but after it moved to Pilote (and I think later it was published straight to albums) the style kept changing slightly. Another notable thing is the use of psychedelic digital effects in some book.
Hi, I'm a new subscriber from Australia but I grew up in Holland and have always been an avid comic fan. Reagrding this video I believe the biggest problem with getting European comics into the English speaking markets is the fact that they are so poorly translated. Belgium is bi-lingual, the people speak both French and Dutch so they translate their french comics well into dutch because they understand the gist of the jokes and the dialogue whereas the translations into English are almost AI in that they translate the words but do not have the feel of the original french. I say this because when I read Asterix in dutch I laugh out loud and get the joke wheras when I read the same story in English it's dry and forced and humourless. Anyway, that's my opinion. Love your program. Arnold
Love your comment. This is a subject I´d like to dig deeper into some day. Translation is VERY important step in the long term success of any story. In Finland Asterix has a really good translation. They were translated decades ago when publishers wanted(and were expected) to offer children high quality content. I´ve read that the original english translations of Asterix are regarded as good quality too. In fact the Anthea Bells(original english translator) name comes up often when Asterix is mentioned. She adjusted the jokes to english speaking areas. This is important with jokes - especially if they are old. When Asterix was made the world was bigger. No internet, no cell phones and world view limited by local news papers etc. This made the jokes local also. This is why I think modifying the jokes to other countries was necessary. And - as you mentioned - the translator could make or break it. With Asterix it´s also good to know that Papercutz has brought out new translation of Asterix. It was "modernized". Maybe worth checking if you´re reading Anthea Bells words or the more current ones? I haven´t read any Asterix in english so I don´t have an opinion on the matter. Then again if you are fluent in Dutch or French I admit being envious and suggest going for the original language☺
@@analogcomicsThe British translations by Anthea Bell are indeed well regarded. I think they're quite well done, as a Native English speaker (South African- although I learned to talk in Northern Ireland), but I know that many jokes were changed or added so they would make sense with English wordplay, so they are different from the originals and may appeal to a different sense of humour. I haven't read the French or Dutch, or the American version, but have encountered the Afrikaans editions, which are similar to Dutch. I'm surprised that there is a retranslation of Asterix, but maybe Papercutz' staff thought it necessary to edit or modernise.
@@nicholassmart4790 I've later learned that Papercutz' new translation isn't necessarily modernized rather than Americanized. The British humor doesn't do that well in USA I guess. English is spoken in so many countries and cultures that they need to localize the jokes. However I don't believe there's an English localized adaptation to each market like Australia. I believe the same goes for South Africa, too? This is an issue that I often forget as Finnish language doesn't have this challenge. One translations works for all the 5 million people who know Finnish.😊
Marvel and DC no longer have a household style. They used to when they had in house artists that would touch up any comic thy published to maintain a consistent style. But that died in the late 80s I think.
@@analogcomics The in-house style started in a similar manner as the Marcinelle school did in Spirou. A lot of artists working in the same room, working on things set in the same universe or trying to copy which ever of them was more successful. Unlike Spirou though, DC started hiring artists whose sole purpose was to go over the art others were making and make sure all the characters were on model. The in-house style was more like disney making an animated movie that it was like independent artists drawing the same thing in their own hand. Then Stan Lee realized Marvel was going under and his bosses weren't paying attention to him. In a chat with his wife he was asked why, if his bosses weren't paying attention to what he was writing wasn't he writing what he wanted to writer. He took that to hart and more or less singlehandedly brought Marvel back from bankruptcy. As his power grew in the company he realized the in-house style needed to improve more than it already was. He's the reason for the 80s boom in art at Marvel. Jim Lee, Rob Liefeld, Tod McFarlan. He's the reason those artists were allowed to take off as they did. DC around the same time launched Elseworld and Vertigo for their more experimental comics or art styles. By the early 90s the only things truly common to mainstream comics were good quality paper as opposed to what they used to be printed on, the newer color printing method that both removed the ben day dots and allowed for more vibrant colors and variable thickness lines. That all being said, both Marvel and DC tried to keep at least the appearance of an in-house style, but when you no longer have artists whose sole role is to make sure all your characters are on model it became harder. Even by the early 2000s it became clear that only some of what DC and Marvel were putting out was in their in-house style; even if the characters and stories were set in the same universe. The New 52 tried to be the start of a new, cohesive world, similar to Marvle's Ultimate universe but when you publish 52 comics a month, with many having a second story line attached that's made by a different team things become a lot more complicated. At present, Marvel and DC together publish around 200 comics a month. While events tend to be drawn in a similar enough style or made by the same team so as to ensure they're cohesive in TPB it's hard to even pretend there is such a thing as a DC or Marvel house style any more. On the one hand the art styles are more diverse and more experimental, allowing for a greater diversity of expression. On the other hand it's hard to claim any two comics that technically share a universe and characters do in fact share anything when the characters and worlds don't look at all alike.
@@AlucardNoir I had to check if you have a channel of your own😅Such a marvelous info blast! This is why I think comment section is the most important part of my channel.
Really glad I found this channel. Have you done any videos on the Jo, Zette and Jocko books? I remember liking them but not as much as the Tintin series which I loved since I was a kid, but when I got older they started to intrigue me more, not sure why. I've since purchased all books in hardcover except for the secret ray which, last time I checked - cheapest price was £1,600. Pretty rare in English having a limited run, I have read it, it's the least mature book of an admittedly rather immature series but I'm still really intrigued by the books, their origins, artwork, connections to Tintin, etc. Binge watching your content, your channel is amazing.
I feel very grateful for your enthusiasm. And I'm always happy to gather more fans of European comics to our small but passionate group.🤘 I have not yet talked about Jo, Zette and Jocko. Now that I think about it I'm not sure if I have even mentioned it.🤔It's definitely something a Clear Line fan should take a look at. It's always annoying when a comic book ends up costing that much. Then a comic stops being a story and becomes just an object or an artifact. In Finland all albums were re-published in 2008 as integral. I have read (most of?) them when I was young but not since. When I (finally) get to talk about the actual Clear Line-styled series I may have to do Tintin before J,Z and J though. But never say never. I've avoided Blake & Mortimer for many years(I have read them long time ago) but now I bought one volume and it's really great and I want more! It's strange how age changes us as readers.
@@analogcomicsSounds great, I'll watch whatever you upload, so much material for you to work with - you'll never run out of content! Be really cool to see more in-depth stuff on Herge and his work, definitely - but I'll settle for whatever you're willing to put out! Would love a deep analysis of Meobius, also - particularly the Blueberry series which I loved, but all of his artwork is fantastic. Genuinely appreciate the response, many thanks.
I've only been able to read two Jo, Zette, and Jocko books in English- I really like Valley of the Cobras but have only been able to find Mr. Pump's Legacy part one- so I've been left on that cliffhanger for years!
I´d love to hear your thoughts on this Marcinelle/Clear Line-matter. Do they look like the same thing? Have you been exposed to either of these styles in your market?
Personally, I always thought of Marcinelle school as clear line because, well, most comics in that style do keep the drawings simple and in line with the definition of clear line. Clear strong lines sometimes of varied width and no hatching, tell me 90 to 99% of The Smurfs of Asterix doesn't fit that description?
Also, I thought the channel died a few months ago when you announced you had health issues and I'm shocked to see it going. Hope you got better.
@@AlucardNoir You make very good observations with Asterix and Smurfs. Peyo was a master in simplifying the panels. As you point out - the lines were clear as were the colors inside them. However the tube-legs, big noses and wild movement lines are the give away that tells these are Marcinelle style. Panels like the ones where Asterix villagers fight with each other would not please Herges eyes. Those fight panels are just big movement lines and collection of heads, legs and arms. Clear line would require a static picture with all characters frozen and visible.
As a style Marcinelle is more flexible to my eye. It was also created by many artists. With Clear Line Herge - just one man - got into position where he pushed artists to follow his visual goals. So the style was very uniform at the beginning even by different artists.
Both of these styles have evolved and merged since so much that I’ve stopped making the distinction long ago. I think the value of knowing about these styles has more to do with history of BD than being able to categorize them.
I had a rough year. I went through all my cancer treatments and now things look promising.
And thanks for helping with that Marvel/DC mystery🤘🏻😄🤘🏻
Thanks! Good of you to spread the gospel around.
I was a storyboard trainee, along with the wonderful Jukka Murtosaari (R.I.P) in Los Angeles back in 1989, and Phil Mendez, our boss, arranged for a meeting with the great Stan Lee. We took a bunch of our sketches along for him to see, and while Jukka's work could very well fit in the Marvel universe, Mr. Lee told me right out my drawings were looking 'very European, too European'. That was where the line was drawn back then. European vs. American. Albeit Hanna-Barbera had imported the Smurfs already!
When I returned to Finland, Jukka stayed back in LA, later working for Disney and others.
You dont understand how much this video means to me , to find an English video about BD is very valuable to me , thank you so much for this my friend..Subscribed!
Well, I am happy to reply that you don’t understand how much your comment means to me😊Starting this I did consider nobody is interested. Turned out there are many passionate readers out there. Great to have you here. May I ask what country you’re from and do you have easy access to European comics? By asking this I try to learn what type of content would help my followers most.
This is just great!
I'm a belgian comic fan
and i can assure you that is great to be a comic fan in Belgium. it is our daily bread;
lots of good shops with comics from all over the world.
I'm openly jealous. In desperation to get even deeper into Franco-Belgian comics I tried to start learning French through Duolingo😰But it's so very hard. It's like opposite of Finnish in every way.
I grew up in France, even here very few youtuber tackle these themes. We have A LOT of youtubers dedicated to Manga and American comics but noone seems to care much for those classics or even the current francobelgian industry which produce so much great stuff. I'm very glad to see someone talking in english about this because it's so obscure.
US Comics and Manga also receive much higher view counts and that drives the content. When I started I decided not to care about the numbers. So far I have held on to that principle but you never know when I'll sell my soul😜But I am curious why French youtubers look away from the treasure they already have. Maybe it is the classic case of being too close to the matter to see it.
Happy to have you with us! My next video should be about Angoulême Comics Festival in France which is like visiting the Fort Knox of European Comics.
At some point, Franquin got in a fight with Dupuis and decided to move to Tintin, where he created Modeste et Pompon--written partly by Goscinny, who would go on to create Asterix and Pilote. Eventually, Franquin didn't leave Spirou and ended up working for both magazines.
Yes, Franquin was the only creator to have contract simultaneously with both Spirou and Tintin. Egmont Finland published translated Modeste et Pompon album just recently which I now have in my tbr-pile. Unfortunately they only collectively mention which writers did stories for that album(Goscinny being one of them) but don't specify them by each story.
@@analogcomics There's a way. Greg and Goscinny each created one of Modeste's neighbour. I can't remember which, but that's documented.
@@exmagnolia My album lists also Franquin, Peyo and Tibet as writers😅A very colorful cocktail!
I'm happy they published this album but going that extra mile and listing writer with each story would be appreciated. They only publish these albums for nostalgia as they know it's mostly people my age who still buy comics like this.
Congratulations on this amazing video!!!👏👏👏👏👏🏆 Can i tell you that you are the first person to go into depth regarding educating many of us (outside of Europe) regarding the specifics of the comics styles. This was very informative. You described everything clearly and precise. I only hope that more comics fans will be interested to learn more. I actually discovered that Cinebook started publishing (in ENGLISH) 11x8 inches Lucky Luke: The Complete Collection. i think they are on the 4th volume and they go into a lengthy introduction of Morris's background. I cannot wait to see what you will put out next regarding the Marcinelle School and European Comics in general. Thanks for your thorough research and thanks for this great video! Cheers!
Thank you so much. I do wonder when making these if anyone is interested so your comment means a lot.
Cinebook has made a big favor to Lucky Luke fans. I think they´ve translated all albums to english which must mean over 80 in total! I prefer single albums over integral collections. But the best collected editions offer sometimes so good extras that I even think about double dipping. I´m currently having this inner struggle with Blueberry. I have all the albums but the Finnish Integrals have interesting extras that have made me looking for second hand copies. I may need to take a look inside those Cinebook Lucky Luke Collected editions too...Maybe one day Cinebook sends me all their books as I talk so much about them or their characters😜I think I only need 100K more subs and it´s a given thing. Joking aside I know already there´ll be quite a lot Cinebook related content coming to my channel.
For my French A-Level, I'm doing a research project and presentation about the Franco-Belgium comic book scene and your videos are a saving grace. There's quite limited info out there about this topic, but these videos are so detailed yet so comprehensible - thank you very much for making them!
Wow! This is quite unexpected but pleasant honor. Especially when making this info better available was one of my main goals. Comments like this make me feel like I’ve achieved something😊
And I am openly envious to anyone who understands french language. It’s the Ultimate Final Boss-key to European comics.
at 11:00 its mentioned about a comic(s) called Asterix (maybe spelled differently idk) being widely known in the U.S. and as a 30yo american who knows a little more than the avarage non-comic fan demographics I've got to say i had to google that. that being said, yeah i recognize the art but those are predominately regarded as newspaper comics in the U.S. and tgose have fallen out of fashion in the last couple of decades because newspaper subscriptions have plumetted. also I'd like to note that among comics fans I highly doubt most americans know the lore of a series like that l very deeply (at leastbnot relatively to marvel/dc stuff). but i just wanted to say that. i love these videos because you're educating me on all these comic facts that are in a sense industry insider information.
This comment is pure gold for me. Getting an "insider view" from another market is so helpful that I cannot stress that enough. Thank you for taking the time to write this. As I underlined in the video we are all differently exposed to comics. Things that are obvious to me are rare and exotic to others - and vice versa. Big percentage of subscribers on this channel are from USA and many of them are hungry for more info about European comics. Comments like the one you just made helps me to understand my followers better. That helps me to make more meaningful content. And if you have any questions or request for videos I´ll help as much as I can.
@@analogcomics glad to be a part of the conversation! I want to know about less "realistic" art styles as in the U.S. all the mainstream wants to talk about is the Avengers and its gotten soooo over saturated haha. I know that we have a few DOZEN underground fandoms of say, Spirou who I'm very interested in the style and expressiveness of. These spaces don't even end up having a voice in animation/comics topics via the mainstream in passing though. It's a shame bc I see that giant smile and I think "this is going to be whacky and hilarious.". In the 90s it would have been more popular as well. On the bright side, people here are getting tired of Marvel and Batman and all that andni think soon more indie titles will break out. Like American comics "Locke and Key" or "Umbrella Academy" and "Invincible" have recently streaming services (although those are more realisticly rendered ones, one day American's will stop shying away from more fun stylized characters!).
@@richatdastkey3555 You touch many interesting topics here. The ”less realistic” style seems to be the general image of BD for many. And it is often seen as the same thing as childish or at least only for children. Bc of this readers miss many great stories - and they miss the fact that BD has also ”really realistic” comics too. Many of them are so realistic they have to be censored for US market😄
Manga is really popular in USA at the moment. I find this a good thing. It means that readers are already getting used to something new. It may be easier then to try some European comics too.
I’ll be talking about the ”less realistic” BD quite a lot as I want to document that part of my collection. Asterix will be there quite soon if all goes well.
Thanks again for your input. I take the opportunity to wish you as happy Christmas too.
@@analogcomics please and thank you!!!!
as a kid I naturally didn't care about different "schools" or the like... actually I thought of the style of "Asterix" and Lucky Luke" as the way comics look like. Later on when I saw some Tintin it was pretty clear that these comics are somehow different & it was hard not to pick up the catchphrase of "clear line" along the ways - but frankly: I had not given too many thoughts about the hows and whys of these differences. As you said it: we were so much exposed to these comics that we didn't felt any reason to think about any further.
Much later on I've become aware of the whole Spirou/Dupuis & Tintin-dichotomy... actually this process is still ongoing. Btw: the term "Marcinelle school" would not ring a bell with me two or three years ago... over here it's usually, at least: much more often described as "franco-belgian funny style".
As you point out there are some overlaps, just take the different proportions: clear line usually uses more realistic ones, while the Marcinelle school draws rather "head-heavy" ones. But for an instance Tillieux longed to do comics with more realistic proportions, despite Dupuis breathing down his neck to use "Franquin like proportions" instead. As an answer Tillieux very often drew his characters into the foreground, so that he could cut off their legs from the waist downwards & had not to draw dwarf-legs. On the other side of the border you have a guy like Roger Leloup who has always drew his characters with way too big heads.
Sth else I just learned through wikipedia: Allegedly Joost Swarte coined the term "ligne claire" much later (1976), so it was not there from the beginning. That was a surprise to me, because I've always thought that Hergé himself was the originator of that catchy name... anyhow: I actually looked for infos about Joost Swarte to get some answers about his "postmodern ligne-claire"-style (as I would call it) and learned that it is usually called "the atom style" - there you go, we live and learn :) Thanks for your video, looking forward to the next videos in this series!
Your thought on childhood summarizes this nicely. Classic European comics looked what we all thought comics look like. They were everywhere and you didn´t really have to make an effort to get them. Just a natural part of life like the sun rise.
I didn´t care about the "schools" either. And don´t really care about them today. But it´s a handy way to make these comics feel more familiar to new comers. And helps to simplify the history of these comics, too.
I had a brief segment on Swarte/Clear Line in my Clear Line video. I think it was interesting to mention as Herge himself didn´t like the term.
I avoided Tillieux and Yoko Tsuno on purpose😬And it was for the reasons you mentioned. It would´ve made the video much longer and probably too complicated. For this reason I left out Atomic-style too. For me Atomic Style name just means that all styles - even original - evolve in the end. I really hope they´re not going to give a name to every little phase😰
I try to avoid the cork sniffing in public but I can tell my thoughts to you confidentially here. Don´t tell anyone I said this🤐 Although Yoko Tsuno was published in Spirou it´s seen as Clear Line. I do think it is Clear Line. It´s line work and colors are more cartoony - very possibly the Dupuis presence showing. But it never lost its Clear Line stiffness. The paint is new but the inside is straight from Herges school.
BTW after your Gil Jourdan vid I realized I missed the Finnish Integral😞I was certain it would not sell out so fast and put my money on other things. Oh, the regret!
yes, I agree on everything... Yoko Tsuno belongs to clear line all things considered. Even though: corksniffing is fun ... or in my case: beercap sniffing :)
as to Gil Jourdan: you're certainly aware of the Tillieux books by fantagraphics, aren't you? @@analogcomics
@@earlgrey862 I do prefer the beercap sniffing too💪🏻I was definitely not aware of these Fantagraphics versions! You sent me on a mad dash to find out more but I could only find one album still available. Looks like I missed them too. 😅I’m still confident the Finnish collection will pop out as second hand somewhere.
Hello! Been a while since I watched one of your video! I'm from Belgium and I've been looking at videos from people outside the Franco-Belgian sphere to see how our BD's are percieved.
It's been very interesting.
You nicely synthetised the differences of the two schools of our Classics.
PS: Your "Charleroi" is fine. "Charles Roi"
This is brilliant! Inception-style layers here. I as European been looking for views of BD from outside Europe and then you take it one step further from inside the very Franco-Belgian scene where I can be seen as outsider. This made me smile😄 You put me in the position of the readers I spoke about in this very video. I´m glad if I didn´t make any hard mistakes as I have already more vids planned for Franco-Belgian content. My idea was to first grind through these most obvious terms around BD and then focus on actual series/characters. I feel like that change will happen after this video.
If I can recomand a comic about the artists from the Marcinalle school, that would be "Gringos Locos" from Yann and Schwartz.
This is the real story of Jijé who decided to go with his family to the USA because of his fear of World War 3 in 1948. He brought along with him his two students Morris and Franquin in hopes to be hired to the Walt Disney Studio. The books covers this two years trip from New-York up to Mexico. (I don't know in which languages it has been translated. Usualy Dupuis covers the german and spanish languages)
@@deezee2965 Wow🤩I know this story. It seems to have almost mystical nature within Franco-Belgian BD history. I would love to read that as comic! Especially when it’s done by two geeks like Yann & Schwartz. I didnt know such comic book existed. Thanks for the heads up. I need to check the available languages. Sometimes books like this get Finnish translation too but there is no logic which get the treatment.
@@analogcomics I hope you can check it out. I didn't finish reading it but for what I read it was a nice historical comic!
Well done :) If you want to know more about Franquin , There is a book ‘Et Franquin créa la gaffe’ by Numa Sadoul and André Franquin ( publisher Glénat ). It’s interview sessions with André Franquin. Sadly it is only available in french I think . I have a copy and it is doable to translate to English with the Google lens app. Another important person related to this topic is Yvan Delporte editor in chief of Spirou at that time. Kudos from Belgium
Glad you‘re back :) Less is more. Very good content. Thanks.
Excellent video about this kind of genre. Usually I only hear about the line claire and I didn’t know that the Marcinelle school was a thing. Very well explained and keep the good work! Thanks 👍
Interesting video! I've grown up in Poland reading Asterix and watching Smurfs, but also many different comics (most notably Donald Duck series) and cartoons, so I was never attached to one particular style. But I always appreciated the humour and beauty of Asterix albums. Now, after many years, I'm reading Tintin for the first time and the "clean line" style is more unusual for me than the Marcinelle School. I'd like to learn drawing in style of Uderzo, so while rereading many albums I started to copy his art and I learnt a lot from that! One can quickly see how important is the nose of a character, how round and fluid are the lines, how articulated the fingers are and how there is much more expressed in general exaggerated pose than in the face (and eyes). It's also interesting how some of the Uderzo's panels showing panoramas of ancient architecture (clearly meant to be more realistic and true to historical sources) are more like the clean-line style.
I tried to gather some more theoretical information about the style and heard for the first time about the Marcinelle School. I'm surprised there are no many materials available analysing it. You offered some general information, and that's good. I think it would be better to show some details from comic pages instead of a whole page - the visual examples didn't show much, and I'd imagine they would be even harder to read for someone who hadn't already investigated the style.
I'd love to see deep analysis of one author at a time, how the characters and scenes are constructed. Especially seeing how broad is the range of styles - some are cleaner, some are more expressive. I liked how you pointed out the background architecture in Lucky Luke. I'm really surprised there aren't many (or even any) videos analysing the details of Uderzo's or Morris' styles. And many "how to draw Asterix" videos don't even render Asterix similarly to the original character! I guess that's because of the lack of popularity of these comics in USA :(
I agree 100% about Uderzo’s expressive details. He has uncanny talent to draw more information into characters. It’s like additional script on top of the written one.
I have thought of doing separate vids about certain important writers/artists. Having said that I don’t know if I’ll go as deep as you’d like into their techniques - at least for awhile. I feel there is too little info available about European comics in english and to change that I have to peel the onion layer by layer. In practice this means I have to keep these first vids very broad. I feel like my current vids are more akin to introducing these subjects than explaining them. The whole subject of BD is actually almost freightening😅There’s just so much to talk about! I try to divide it into gazillion smaller pieces.
Your comment is super interesting. You come from a more demanding angle as most subs in this channel are readers rather than artists. I really appreciate the time you took for these ideas. As for more content on drawing Marcinelle - or any BD style - there might some in YT but propably in French. They’re doing disservice to themselves by not adding english text to videos. If You’re really hard core after knowledge nuggets one of my future vids might be useful for you.😎Though not revealing more at this point.
@@analogcomics Thanks for kind reply! Of course, I agree and I see your point about starting with a broader perspective, because - as you accurately said in the video - the exposure to BDs outside Europe is very little. If you want to reach wider audience, you'd have to start with something more general (and in this the video above is succesful) and later go into details. I learnt about Marcinelle School just recently even though Asterix, Lucky Luke, Smurfs and some others were present in my life for many years! I just meant to say that if you find time, will and health in future to deep diver into styles of particular artists, with greater attention to details, then it might be a good idea, because it's a niche topic with little information available in English :)
I'm fortunate to know a bit of French and I try to seek some obscure information (in case of Uderzo - there are a few useful interviews and recordings of him drawing - even the order of elements says something about his thinking :)) but even then - as you're aware - it's really hard to find good analysis or collected summaries. I make a strong generalization, but I feel many French creators don't care too much about being accessible to foreigners ;)
And indeed, the topic of BDs is huge, and the more I look into it, it gets even more... bottomless ;) I focus on a few "classic" artists and my collection is relatively small, but it's already overwhelming in terms of styles and inspirations :) On the other hand, it's cool - I believe anyone could find a style and artist interesting for them!
I'm looking forward to whatever you're teasing here ;) Good luck with next videos!
This was a superb video, showing light on something I've read, but didn't know had a name. Thank you so much!
Your comment couldn´t be more satisfying if I wrote it myself. I had the feeling many readers have already been enjoying Marcinelle School without knowing it. Of course the most important part is that enjoying💪☺🤘
Stoked to watch this in full
Thank you very much for this video, a very interesting topic.
I wish you would talk some day about the Atom style, which for me is the perfect marriage between the Clear Line and the Marcinelle style (Yves Chaland being one of its greatest creators).
Greetings from Chile!
European comics is indeed full of interesting subjects but get too little attention. I'll do my part/best to fix that.
I won't say never to Atom Style. Having said that I feel like covering some European comics next instead of terms and concepts. So many comics that deserve some love. In fact next one will be quite personal case for me🤘
My best wishes to Chile where I'd like to be right now as I've been shoveling snow for two weeks😄
Thanks for educating me. I wasn’t aware there is name for this style of European comics! As a boy in the 70s, I discovered Tintin and Asterix at the same time (at the public library.) I was never attracted to the Asterix style but loved Herge’s clear line art. I always checked out the Tintin books, but never borrowed an Asterix book. It was a bit frustrating to me because I wanted to explore those comics as much as I had immersed into Tintin’s adventures. I still can’t bring myself to read Asterix. So very informative, A.C.!
I can see why the more cartoony style of Asterix(and other Marcinelle school comics) is not for everyone. I took a time-out from it in my teens and "found" it again later and have enjoyed it enormously since.
But you got me intrigued. Did you try to read Asterix and then decided against it, or was the art so uninteresting you didn't read it at all? I'm currently planning some content around Asterix so any comments for and against is welcome.
I am fascinated by the differences between comics, manga, and BD. The most important difference, I think, is the rate of production.
Manga - 20pg/week
Comics - 5
BD - 1
And everything follows that. Manga has the most fluid, readable, visual style with minimal text. A style that inherently takes more pages. Emphasis is on facial expression and character.
BD has the most pretty style. The slow production rate allows for lavish detail and color. Emphasis on backgrounds and setting. Covers time quickly within narrative summary and not much space for character development.
Comics are in the middle - disposable, lazy art nonetheless cluttered with significant text. Emphasis on figures and anatomy. (Or the text, if you’re talking about the vertigo school) Further marring the US market is the prevalence of corporate rather than creator own characters.
Very interesting take on the differences of these three comics cultures. Production speed is definitely something I've thought about too. Of course comics are business in all markets but the way it shows in the end products varies greatly due to differences in business cultures. I have to say that one of the biggest obstacles for me in getting into US superhero comics has been the biz. When I read those comics it's too easy to see The Business. It's like watching a movie in dark theater while somebody next to you is fiddling with his phone killing the magic of the movie itself. I know the business is always there in all comics but I don't want to see it while reading.
Excellent video
Marcinelle is, or used to be, the city where Dupuis was based. The Marcinelle school is really the Spirou school. It revolves mostly around Franquin.
Tintin was based in Bruxelles and so la ligne claire is also know as Brussels school.
Just to say that as a Gen X Brit I was well aware of Asterix and Tintin and the like. We had them in our school library as they were seen as being a bit educational. We also got English Asterix cartoons like 'Asterix and the big fight' from 1989 and the English dub of 'The 12 tasks of Asterix' from 1976. Also they used to show the Belvision 'Tintin' cartoons on kids telly too. Another one I only recently found out about was a strip called 'Jinks' which appeared in the 1970 Lion comic annual. I suspect it's an English translation of a French or Belgian original but I'm not familiar enough to know which one. I always thought that the difference between the clear line and Marcinelle schools was just the various artists different personal styles.
Great to hear that Asterix keeps educating children. It definitely made me more interested of history.
Brilliant video and an excellent channel!! So looking forward to watching your previous videos and keeping up on future uploads! The UK certainly could use some more euro representation, such a wealth of stories, ideas and art that go unnoticed. We have a few UK localised translations of various albums which are pretty interesting as usually we pretty much get whatever America translates and it can vary in its...americanisms. While Asterix is well known generally, I hesitate to say it's that widespread amongst the younger generation, usually older people and they'd probably have to be interested in comics anyway. Tintin probably reigns supreme here and even then I doubt alot of people have read it, they usually know the character.
Thank you for your kind words. My next video might be UK publication actually...
UK market leaning heavily towards US selection is historically the most unfortunate detail in European comics history. If UK market would´ve been introduced and familiarized to Franco-Belgian comics right after WW2 we might have a much more wide spread availability globally. Having translation done for UK would immediately allow selling to many other markets too. Just like fans of Marvel/DC have to read in english in Finland if they want more content than just what little is available in Finnish.
@@analogcomics Excellent, sounds like a treat! It is a shame, would be interesting to see that alternate universe, maybe it wouldn't have resulted in the UK Comics Campaign Council and a lot of interesting artistic movements and works would've been developed without censorship...wishful thinking! Is there much of a community around digital translation of foreign comics in Finland, as opposed to the official printed works that are published there?
@@JulesWebbAnimation The UK comic I’m thinking of talking about is a fun and great read but I can’t recommend it to anyone🤔 But then again that is the reason I want to talk about it…
I don’t know if such a digital translation community exists. I admit being ignorant when it comes to stuff like that. We do have strong presence of European comics in Finnish language. There is quite a lot to buy through official publications though some very interesting series are not available. Also if such sites already exist in English it makes the Finnish version less needed.
skimming they don't look to different, but now after watching videos of/on both styles there are many very important distinctions.
I've always been aware of the two schools but never rememdered the name lol. I always called this style the lucky luke and spirou style (or comic dynamic style). I tend to prefer this style in comparison to the clear line style (i like both but still). I find this style to have a more "organic" kind of feel and that it allows for some controlled chaos
You touch important issue here. I believe part of Clear Line terms success lies on its memorable name. Just like manga or anime. Thats just perfect for marketing.
@@analogcomics You make a great point.
Amazing video very informative! do you think jerome k jerome bloche mixes both clear ligne and marcinelle?
I try to avoid not becoming an authority on these matters🫣 - despite my videos. Also I have not really read this comics but I have briefly looked at some(Looked really interesting!)Just with that info I’d say I didn’t get any Marcinelle vibe. It looked like artist was aiming for more realistic look. That would put it closer to Clear Line. Having said that I didn’t see it as pure Clear Line either. Camera angles and details felt more modern.
BTW There is a third style from Europe that was given a name:Atomic style. I am reluctant to speak about it as it is a more vague and harder to explain. I think this jerome comic happened when Clear Line was making a come back after being out of style for awhile. Many comics of that era were dubbed as Atomic Style. I’d have to know the series better to say more.
I heard that one of the things that prevented Asterix from being popular in the US was how POC were represented, I don't think it was early on but I heard some Asterix album were removed from some schools because they use blackface type caricature... Which is kinda true, both Asterix and Lucky Luke have recurring racialized characters that calls to mind old racist stereotype (the pirate in Asterix and the chinese character in every Lucky Luke album) it's not true for every artist of this style but it's there in the two main books. To me it's one of those cases where the style is obviously trying to caricature everyone but I get as an adult how it can be perceived. Conrad, the current Asterix artist is one of the best at reproducing Uderzo's style and one of his earlier works "Les innommables" was a mature adventure story taking place in China. This book is interesting regarding this thematic because it doesn't pull any punches oh boy : no one is pretty, most characters are chinese and Conrad really stretches the classical asian caricature to its limit as you can't find two chinese that look the same in this book. I remember that it... kind of amazed me that he was able to get so much unique character designs out of it yet... It's a very thin line I wouldn't blame people who see this and think of the book as racist.
Which is weird too because on the clear line side of the story Hergé is heavily criticized for his caricature of Japanese in "Le lotus bleu" and he had to redraw panels of "Tintin en Amérique" on re-release because he draw some background characters with a blackface. Of course there's a larger issue with Hergé as some albums are almost cancelled today, but remembering that after pointing out what could be deemed "problematic" in the Marcinelle school makes me wonder how this kind of indignation works.
@@Bubblegob This is always a larger issue than these single albums. But I do wonder if after reading Asterix albums the only thing one walks off with is the impression that they are racist. One of the biggest reasons for its success is precisely its never ending stereotyping which includes every race, age, gender, nationality and what ever common nominator you can think of. Nothing and no-one gets a free ticket and it is beyond obvious that the creators are not out there to hurt anyone.
First albums of Tintin is a different case. They have clear propaganda and racism. Then again they are also boring and unfunny - mostly because of the above-mentioned reasons.
In general I try to steer away from this topic - though it is interesting - as it's almost guaranteed not to stay calm and fact based discussion between adults. I love drama in stories but can't stand it in real life.😄
I will add though that more than the details of art in comic book panels I am worried about people who demand to decide for me what type of content I can see/read. The essence of their message is that they have seen/read it and they can handle it but I couldn't and I cannot question their superiority in wisdom and morals. What makes this terrible certainty frightening is that it stems from honest desire to do good. It is a powerfuI motivator and easy angle to defend. And I even agree with their noble goals - but just not with the means.
@@analogcomics You're right that's definitely one of the biggest appeal for Asterix, you sound like a real fan. To me it is a product of its time someone who wouldn't like humorist doing accents probably wouldn't be a big fan for me I find Goscinny's writting fun and smart enough to make it work.
I think this is the kind of reflexion one comes to as an educator finding the book in a school and seeing some things they deem problematic without knowing much about the book. I'm mentioning all this because when I heard about it I wondered if that was it, if big nose style never made it in the state because of that kind of thing.
But I guess it never stopped DBZ.
Wokistry ruins everything
In his adventures Asterix (together with Obelix and Idefix) visits many countries with an (anachronistic) caricatural and cliché representation of the natives. Nobody is spared : the Germans, the English, the French, the Belgians, the Egyptians, the Spanish, ...
I’ve never heard of Marcinelle, but the difference is blindingly obvious. The same difference that divides neoclassicism from romanticism, and can be seen in all genres of visual art. I think clear line is primarily art for people who don’t like or understand art - accountants, engineers, architects, research scientists. The precision and sterility appeals to them. Marcinelle is vibrant, bravura, virtuoso - only possible for people with innate talent. Whereas anyone with patience can construct a passable clear line with calipers and a ruler.
I absolutely love to hear comments from readers with a different backgrounds about European comics. It helps me out of my own tunnel vision.
Clear Line does look stiff next to Marcinelles wild and unrestricted appearance. Having been marinated in both styles since before I learn to read I like both. For me clear line gives more wow-effects on panels as a whole. Many Blake & Mortimer panels for example have hauntingly captivating scenery and settings. I don't admire the line itself in these comics rather than what is achieved with it. Marcinelle-style captivates me more as a line work(ironically) and pure free hand drawing talent. While in Angoulême I saw original black & white pages from Andre Franquin and Albert Uderzo and it was one of the best experiences I've had in comics. Just raw skill and talent. Tintin in b&w doesn't have the same effect on me.
I really hope one day you can dedicate some time to other European authors/realities besides those from the Franco-Belgian market. The richness and variety is overwhelming. By the way R.I.P Bob De Groot, one of the greats from the “big nose” lines.
Hello rewanji🤘Always good to hear from you.
I´m pretty sure there´ll be comics from other countries too(Some ideas already for Italy, Spain and Finland). Having said that I am currently having a blast with Franco-Belgian comics which does effect the content quite much. This video series with blue backgrounds in thumbnails is dedicated to Franco-Belgian content. For most readers it will be the gateway into European comics anyway. It´s also content that is most likely available in english in case someone wants to read them after seeing the vid. But yes, my intention is to display also lesser known comics that I like regardless of their availability.
Sad to hear about Bob De Groot passing away. I wasn´t aware of this. Now I see it happened last week. His Clifton series hasn´t lost its appeal although I´ve read them since 70´s.
Would you consider Valerian to be in this school?
It definitely started with heavy Marcinelle influence. Then the art started moving towards more realistic and and at the end it was moving back to cartoony style. Valerian wasnt published in Tintin or Spirou but in French magazine Pilote(like Asterix). I am also actively trying not to get too tangled in styles comparison. I am definitely not the authority on this issue. Having said that I am always curious how other readers see european styles. We all focus on different details so we see the same things quite differently too. I dont like elitism so I was suprised to find a bit of it from myself. Being right about these style issues shouldnt become important - and that should then include myself😅
The first few Valerian & Laueline episodes were published in Spirou, and were very Marcinelle-looking, but after it moved to Pilote (and I think later it was published straight to albums) the style kept changing slightly. Another notable thing is the use of psychedelic digital effects in some book.
Hi, I'm a new subscriber from Australia but I grew up in Holland and have always been an avid comic fan. Reagrding this video I believe the biggest problem with getting European comics into the English speaking markets is the fact that they are so poorly translated. Belgium is bi-lingual, the people speak both French and Dutch so they translate their french comics well into dutch because they understand the gist of the jokes and the dialogue whereas the translations into English are almost AI in that they translate the words but do not have the feel of the original french. I say this because when I read Asterix in dutch I laugh out loud and get the joke wheras when I read the same story in English it's dry and forced and humourless. Anyway, that's my opinion. Love your program.
Arnold
Love your comment. This is a subject I´d like to dig deeper into some day.
Translation is VERY important step in the long term success of any story. In Finland Asterix has a really good translation. They were translated decades ago when publishers wanted(and were expected) to offer children high quality content. I´ve read that the original english translations of Asterix are regarded as good quality too. In fact the Anthea Bells(original english translator) name comes up often when Asterix is mentioned. She adjusted the jokes to english speaking areas. This is important with jokes - especially if they are old. When Asterix was made the world was bigger. No internet, no cell phones and world view limited by local news papers etc. This made the jokes local also. This is why I think modifying the jokes to other countries was necessary. And - as you mentioned - the translator could make or break it. With Asterix it´s also good to know that Papercutz has brought out new translation of Asterix. It was "modernized". Maybe worth checking if you´re reading Anthea Bells words or the more current ones? I haven´t read any Asterix in english so I don´t have an opinion on the matter. Then again if you are fluent in Dutch or French I admit being envious and suggest going for the original language☺
@@analogcomicsThe British translations by Anthea Bell are indeed well regarded. I think they're quite well done, as a Native English speaker (South African- although I learned to talk in Northern Ireland), but I know that many jokes were changed or added so they would make sense with English wordplay, so they are different from the originals and may appeal to a different sense of humour. I haven't read the French or Dutch, or the American version, but have encountered the Afrikaans editions, which are similar to Dutch. I'm surprised that there is a retranslation of Asterix, but maybe Papercutz' staff thought it necessary to edit or modernise.
@@nicholassmart4790 I've later learned that Papercutz' new translation isn't necessarily modernized rather than Americanized. The British humor doesn't do that well in USA I guess.
English is spoken in so many countries and cultures that they need to localize the jokes. However I don't believe there's an English localized adaptation to each market like Australia. I believe the same goes for South Africa, too?
This is an issue that I often forget as Finnish language doesn't have this challenge. One translations works for all the 5 million people who know Finnish.😊
Marvel and DC no longer have a household style. They used to when they had in house artists that would touch up any comic thy published to maintain a consistent style. But that died in the late 80s I think.
Thanks for this.🤘🏻This explains a lot. If it ended already in 80’s no wonder I havent been able to recognize the style😅
@@analogcomics The in-house style started in a similar manner as the Marcinelle school did in Spirou. A lot of artists working in the same room, working on things set in the same universe or trying to copy which ever of them was more successful. Unlike Spirou though, DC started hiring artists whose sole purpose was to go over the art others were making and make sure all the characters were on model. The in-house style was more like disney making an animated movie that it was like independent artists drawing the same thing in their own hand.
Then Stan Lee realized Marvel was going under and his bosses weren't paying attention to him. In a chat with his wife he was asked why, if his bosses weren't paying attention to what he was writing wasn't he writing what he wanted to writer. He took that to hart and more or less singlehandedly brought Marvel back from bankruptcy. As his power grew in the company he realized the in-house style needed to improve more than it already was. He's the reason for the 80s boom in art at Marvel. Jim Lee, Rob Liefeld, Tod McFarlan. He's the reason those artists were allowed to take off as they did. DC around the same time launched Elseworld and Vertigo for their more experimental comics or art styles.
By the early 90s the only things truly common to mainstream comics were good quality paper as opposed to what they used to be printed on, the newer color printing method that both removed the ben day dots and allowed for more vibrant colors and variable thickness lines.
That all being said, both Marvel and DC tried to keep at least the appearance of an in-house style, but when you no longer have artists whose sole role is to make sure all your characters are on model it became harder. Even by the early 2000s it became clear that only some of what DC and Marvel were putting out was in their in-house style; even if the characters and stories were set in the same universe. The New 52 tried to be the start of a new, cohesive world, similar to Marvle's Ultimate universe but when you publish 52 comics a month, with many having a second story line attached that's made by a different team things become a lot more complicated. At present, Marvel and DC together publish around 200 comics a month. While events tend to be drawn in a similar enough style or made by the same team so as to ensure they're cohesive in TPB it's hard to even pretend there is such a thing as a DC or Marvel house style any more.
On the one hand the art styles are more diverse and more experimental, allowing for a greater diversity of expression. On the other hand it's hard to claim any two comics that technically share a universe and characters do in fact share anything when the characters and worlds don't look at all alike.
@@AlucardNoir I had to check if you have a channel of your own😅Such a marvelous info blast! This is why I think comment section is the most important part of my channel.
Really glad I found this channel.
Have you done any videos on the Jo, Zette and Jocko books?
I remember liking them but not as much as the Tintin series which I loved since I was a kid, but when I got older they started to intrigue me more, not sure why. I've since purchased all books in hardcover except for the secret ray which, last time I checked - cheapest price was £1,600. Pretty rare in English having a limited run, I have read it, it's the least mature book of an admittedly rather immature series but I'm still really intrigued by the books, their origins, artwork, connections to Tintin, etc.
Binge watching your content, your channel is amazing.
I feel very grateful for your enthusiasm. And I'm always happy to gather more fans of European comics to our small but passionate group.🤘
I have not yet talked about Jo, Zette and Jocko. Now that I think about it I'm not sure if I have even mentioned it.🤔It's definitely something a Clear Line fan should take a look at. It's always annoying when a comic book ends up costing that much. Then a comic stops being a story and becomes just an object or an artifact. In Finland all albums were re-published in 2008 as integral. I have read (most of?) them when I was young but not since.
When I (finally) get to talk about the actual Clear Line-styled series I may have to do Tintin before J,Z and J though. But never say never. I've avoided Blake & Mortimer for many years(I have read them long time ago) but now I bought one volume and it's really great and I want more! It's strange how age changes us as readers.
@@analogcomicsSounds great, I'll watch whatever you upload, so much material for you to work with - you'll never run out of content!
Be really cool to see more in-depth stuff on Herge and his work, definitely - but I'll settle for whatever you're willing to put out!
Would love a deep analysis of Meobius, also - particularly the Blueberry series which I loved, but all of his artwork is fantastic.
Genuinely appreciate the response, many thanks.
I've only been able to read two Jo, Zette, and Jocko books in English- I really like Valley of the Cobras but have only been able to find Mr. Pump's Legacy part one- so I've been left on that cliffhanger for years!