Supermicro SAS Backplanes Explained | Supermicro Tech Tip
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 พ.ย. 2022
- In this video, I'm going to show you the 3 types of Supermicro SAS backplanes available in Supermicro servers. First, there are the "TQ" backplanes, which are direct attached but have individual connectors for each port. These are typically the cheapest type of backplanes, but they require a lot of cabling and SAS lanes from the controllers. Second are the "A" backplanes. These are similar to the "TQ" backplanes, but use consolidated SAS ports like SFF-8087 instead of individual SATA ports. This helps to reduce the amount of cabling, but you still need a SAS lane from the controller for each individual port. Finally, there are the "EL" backplanes which are SAS expander backplanes. These backplanes have a built-in SAS expander onboard and help to reduce the amount of connectivity required, and simplifies the number of SAS lanes needed from the controller. However, SAS expander backplanes are usually the most expensive. Additionally, there are SAS expander backplanes with dual SAS expander chips, e.g., the BPN-SAS2-826EL2. The dual SAS expander backplanes can provide redundancy as well as higher I/O bandwidth with SAS drives by load balancing the I/O traffic across both data channels.
If you'd like to support this channel, please consider shopping at my eBay store: ebay.to/2ZKBFDM
Links to other videos mentioned:
2TB Limit - • The 2TB Limit
SAS expander videos playlist - • How to use SAS-2 Expan...
How to size your bandwidth - • How to size your bandw...
How to swap Supermicro 826 backplane - • How to swap Supermicro...
How to swap Supermicro 836 backplane - • How to replace the bac...
How to swap Supermicro 846 backplane - • How to swap Supermicro...
Timestamps:
0:57 - Overview of Supermicro backplane types
1:43 - Explaining "TQ" directly attached backplanes (e.g., SAS836TQ)
5:35 - Explaining "A" directly attached backplanes (e.g., SAS826A)
8:45 - Explaining "EL1" SAS expander backplanes (e.g., BPN-SAS2-826EL1)
14:58 - Explaining "EL2" Dual SAS expander backplanes (e.g., BPN-SAS2-216EL2)
18:16 - The advantages of a dual SAS expander backplane
23:35 - Recap
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This is why I love this channel. I don't have a supermicro server nor do I plan to get one soon. But when I watched the video I learned so much about general server technology and backplanes that it was still fascinating to me. AOS, you have a very specific and unique talent in this area of breaking down what seems complicated at first and making it understandable better than anyone else I've seen on TH-cam. Thank you for the time that you put into this channel and please keep sharing your gift.
Thank you so much for your kind words! :-)
I don't have one but I do plan on getting one soon. I'm no tech guru, but my friend is so this is infinitly helpful in that I am able to watch it and understand, as well as link this as an exhaustive resource and get his input as well.
Nice one. It's good to see that you're back at uploading more regularly!
Thank you! Yes, it's good to be back. I've been uploading every week for 2 months now! Thank you for watching and supporting my channel 😄
Man I love watching your stuff,
Thank again!
Thanks! Hope it was helpful.
Thanks for explanation about redundancy and backplate series!
Glad it was helpful. Thanks for watching!
THANK YOU
Exyctly what I searched for, very helpful.
Glad it was helpful!
Great explanation, thank you! 👍
Glad it was helpful!
great video! Mine comes with the SAS3-826EL1-N4 Backplane
that's an awesome backplane with U.2 NVMe support!
@@ArtofServerI should be able to do a total of 6 NVME with the 2 in the rear correct?
@@ArtofServerdo you know if it supports u.3? or only u.2 drives on that backplane?
I don’t have a *(Supermicro Server) right now. Hell I don’t even have a Computer 🖥️ as well. Just my Cellphone 📲, & Tablet ⌨️. I’m planning on building my own computer 💻. But information ℹ️ is always welcome 😃.
Have fun! Hope my channel helps!
I've got a 2u chassis with a sas3 backplane and add-on expander card. I've also got a handful of u.2 drives and an adapter card for them - do I need a new backplane to use the u.2 drives?
Hey can you use a backplane with a sas controller connected to the pcie slot of a server and a power supply.
I ask this because shipping a server to where I live cost several times more then its list price, but i do have a dell r720 2.5" server. I really dislike the capacity of the 2.5" drives so i was thinking would it be possible to buy a sas hba and connect that to the sas backplane with power from a external power supply and add big boy 3.5" hard drives.
If I remembered correctly you can use the A as direct attached aswel. It is basically just passthrough.
yes, that's what I said in the video... it is true.
Great video! Is there a hard drive capacity compatibility limitation with SAS3 EL backplanes? i.e., Will SAS3 EL backplanes work with 18+TB SATA hard drives?
Short answer is yes, not a problem as long as the controller can handle it. Look up my video called "The 2TB limit" on this channel for more technical details.
Thank you so much for this video. I am learning about this stuff and purchased a 6027R W/ X9DRI-LN4F+ with the BPN-SAS2-826EL1 back-plane. I did not buy a controller with it. I have an IBM M5110 = LSI 9207-8i it w/ LSI P20 IT Mode ZFS FreeNAS that I purchased with my first build. This has 2 SFF-8087 ports. Is there a way to connect all 3 SAS ports on the back-plane to that card? If not, what card would you recommend?
OMG, I just realized they sent me the wrong backplane, they sent me the type A instead of the -826El1.
Glad I could help
On an A backplane, do all drives on the same 8087 need to use the same sas version? (or downgrade to the highest version they all support?)
No, each of the SAS lanes are basically individual SAS lanes on a A backplane. So, each lane can be connected to either a SAS or SATA device.
If im building my own PC but want to use one of these backplanes, is all I need to hook-up the Molex power and 8087, or do I need to hook up something else? There appear to be a lot of other headers and connectors, just wondering which ones are required to be connected? I really need a backplane which just has power and SAS ports.
You are correct. Just provide power and data connectivity and it should work. the other stuff is optional for things like running fans, etc.
Do you know if there's a way to check backplane without tearing into the server? I've got an 847 but when I look at my unraid devices it's saying LSI SAS2308 but I'm pretty sure that's the card, right?
Yes, the SAS2308 is the HBA card. Run 'lsscsi" and if it shows an enclosure device, that would be the SAS expander chip on the backplane - that would be a hint. But if you have a "A" or "TQ" backplane, then you can't really tell the difference and the drives would just appears directly attached without any SAS expander (or enclosure device).
Thank you for the video. I am not in any shape or form a computer guy so i have a question. I am in processes of building an unraid server and have 4x sas2-846el1 coming my way (paid same for 4 than one used sas3 version) which two are going to use. What would be the smartest way to use the both backplanes inside the same chassis because unraid allows 30 drives? Also how does cascading work and do i have to add hard drives in order.
I'm not sure how you plan to use those backplanes in the same chassis? But I've demonstrated SAS expander cascading in my video here:
th-cam.com/video/EjFouPv6K-o/w-d-xo.html
Maybe that will help you understand how that works.
Thanks for watching!
@@ArtofServer I have old cases laying around which one will have the main components and other have the hard drives, backplanes, jbod board and psu. So basically server plus disk chassis. Either going to run lsi 9300-8e with sff-8088/sff-8087 slot sheet´s between them or just long cables from hba to the other chassis.
I have a BPN-SAS2-826EL1. Can I use it with a modern motherboard? What ports do I need on my motherboard and what cables?
That's a SAS-2 expander 12--bay backplane. Yes, you can use it with any motherboard as long as you have a SAS-2 or newer controller. I recommend you checkout this video: th-cam.com/video/hTbKzQZk21w/w-d-xo.htmlsi=mP0qd5H-DkbNRGp2
Hey very nice video. I just bought two Supermicro SYS-937R-E2JB which I believe are SAS1 backplanes? Would this still be backwards compatible with SAS2/3 drives?
you know, I don't know about that SYS-937R-E2JB? Is it SAS-1?
@@ArtofServer it’s sas2, looks like the backplane is not supply power to the disks. I’m going to rip it open tonight to investigate.
Do these backplanes present 3.3V on SATA PIN3 preventing the use of modern HDDs without taping off the pin?
No, if you look carefully, they are usually powered by 4-pin molex, which only has 12v and 5v. Most server backplanes do not supply 3.3v so no issues with the power disable feature.
Do you have a video covering installing the rear drive caddies in the 826-846 (minimum, those are the 2 I need at least) chassis? I see one has a plug that is unfamiliar to me and no instructions. If you're able to I'd appreciate a "short" or something showing at least those chassis.
(I have an 846 and am contemplating getting an 826)
Sorry, I don't have that. It's a great idea but for future video!
@ArtofServer maybe when you do that video (hopefully soon) you can mention what boards and such fit with it installed. I just found out the hard way that in a sc826 you can't put the drive caddies in and use a x10dri-t4 board, they try to take up the same real estate. Do you know of a single cpu version of that board (2011-3 v3/v4, ddr4 (2400ecc), with built in 10G-rj45 and ipmi) that would fit my situation/parts on hand?
Do you need to utilize a Supermicro motherboard with a sas controller to be able to utilize the backplane ?
not a supermicro motherboard. but definitely a SAS controller.
I just upgraded to the BPN-SAS2-826EL1 backplane but I am having an issue. The SAS drives I have are all detected but not the sata ssd and white label shucked easystore drives. Is there a fix for this? I used to have the backplane '826A' that came with the chassis and in that backplane both SAS and SATA drives were detected. Thanks
Try watching this video: th-cam.com/video/1dCd6IepB5s/w-d-xo.html
A question from out of left field. Would it be possible to use a SAS backplane - SuperMicro or other - to connect and share a collection of drives with two (2) different motherboards? A use-case I am thinking of is a TrueNAS server and a Proxmox server where both have access to the same storage pool? If yes, would you mind elaborating? Thanks in advance.
It is possible to physically share storage among 2 or more machines. However, you would also need "cluster" aware I/O access software layer. There are file systems designed for this type of use case, but ZFS is not one of them so not for TrueNAS or ZFS in Proxmox.
@@ArtofServer Thanks for the reply.
What kind of software layer are you referring to - ceph? - and what kind of hardware would be needed?
Hi, do you know if the CSE-SAS-833TQ backplane is SAS1? I like this 8 bay case but want the full performance obviously. Thanks!
Well, as described in this video, that's a "TQ" backplane. This means it is directly attached with individual SATA ports for each drive bay. Being directly attached, it should be able to support whatever protocol speed is supported by the attached controller and storage drive.
Thanks
@@ArtofServer
Is it possible to go from SATA disks to the 8087 on the A backplane to SATA ports on mainboard using 8087 to 4x SATA cables?
If the backplane is directly attached backplane, there's a good chance that will work.
@@ArtofServer do you know of any supermicro A backplanes where that is the case? I have a 3U case, but mainboard has 22 sata ports and only 1 PCIe that has an Intel NIC in it, so no room for HBA and plenty of sata. Can't seem to find a TQ that will fit in 3U or a smaller one that will support 20+ disks.
Let's try this again, as my first comment disappeared.
- Any information on connecting my BPN-SAS3-826EL1-N4 to a motherboard, I am using the H11DSi-NT?
- Also, any information on the NVME SAS 8643 connectors?
- Can I use the SAS 8087 connectors on this motherboard instead of a separate HBA? (iPASS SATA)
- If I do connect the NVME on the backplane, would that be to the NVME oculink on the motherboard?
I have been hard pressed to find anything about this online.
That's a very interesting backplane and I have never used one before. From the user manual, it looks like it is a 12 bay SAS backplane, but the last 4 drive bays can be converted to U.2 NVMe by connecting the beige connectors to the PCIe bus. I don't have any information on specific cables. You could reach out to Supermicro via email at their tech support address. That's what I would do to get specific information.
how to build dual controller (two pc node) with one jbod? cabling? hba card? disk?
That's a loaded question. Not something that I can answer in a comment but I'll consider it for a future video. Thanks for watching.
I have the SAS836TQ backplane you showed off, but one of the ports isn't working. Any tips?
closely examine the traces from that port. there are usually "coupling capacitors" on those lines that can get damaged. this is often a cause of single ports that don't work.
@@ArtofServerwill do, cheers
would it not be valuable to point out that the sas3 backplanes are not always el1/2?
Not sure what you mean? I never said SAS-3 BP are always expanders. I didn't have any SAS-3 backplanes on hand to show in this video.
Can a BPN-SAS2-826EL1 be used with 12 SATA HHDs?
Yes, should support SATA 2/3 drives no problem. SATA-1 support is not always good.
Hi Sir, could you make a video to instruct upgrading the firmware for backplane for Supermicro
The process in this video works with most SAS expanders. th-cam.com/video/Lw4TTI_HYqM/w-d-xo.html
@@ArtofServer Thanks so much👍
Interestingly for me I can use locate with 826-EL1, but not with 745A-N4, despite them being connected to same HBA with SFF cable
That's interesting. I'm not sure about the cause, but check the jumpers on the backplane for the sideband signaling. At least that's what I would do.
The SAS connector has two parts, one for data transfer, the other for power, and a protrusion between them. In one of the videos, I heard the following - that there is a contact on this protrusion in the middle and some kind of service signaling information of the SAS standard is transmitted through it. This is true? It's just that you said type TQ can be used for SAS as well and it's cheap for SAS 3.
the SAS connectors on storage devices, known as SFF8482 connectors have, like you said, a data channel (similar to SATA data channel) and power connections. The "bridge" part has a 2nd data channel unique to SAS devices. This can be used to establish a redundant data channel for dual path topologies.
I have a TQ and it doesn’t recognize my 6tb HGST SAS drives.
Is this possible to connect one hardrive two motherboard so that if one motherboard failed another will takeover??
if you use SAS drives, with a dual channel backplane, you could do something like that, but it requires software to coordinate between the 2 hosts to determine who has control of the device.
@@ArtofServer any dual channel backplane name please 🙏🏼
If the TQ backplane is primarily "Direct Attach" and viewed almost as an extension of the cable, what purpose does all the circuitry on the card have, then?
It still allows for hot plugging drives from the drive bays, supplies power, and allows for led control via sideband.
Thanks for watching!
@@ArtofServer I was going to ask the same question. Seeing the answer let me expand my question. 1.if I want to design my own backplane to fit a specific enclosure, I could get away with just a simple design that simple routes the signals from the cable connector the board SAS connectors and add the power lines. Almost a purely mechanical backplane. 2. If the TQ circuitry is nothing more than to support hot plug, is there a schematic or circuit diagram somewhere that I could use as starting reference incorporate in a custom backplane?
i need info on a damn dell backplane !!!
The Dell backplanes are mostly like the "A" backplanes or the "EL" backplanes. Hope that helps 😃
do you know of any 3rd party backplane manufacturers ?
not really. almost all the backplanes I've ever see were specific to a chassis. the mechanism to hold the drives need to work with the backplane. the best "generic" alternative are the 5.25" bay enclosures from companies like Icy Dock.
@@ArtofServer can Supermicro backplanes fit in generic 2u rack server chassis ?
I just got in a second CSE836 that has an EL2 backplane in it. Total waste for my use case (SATA only), so will be hitting eBay soon to replace it with a TQ or A and sell the EL2.
EL1 might be a good choice since you can still use it with SATA, but need a lot less connectivity if you're spinning rust, that is as long as you have SAS HBA
@@Gastell0 I've thought about that, but my intent is to run 2 x CSE-836 systems with 8 drives in each. They are Proxmox systems running Truenas Scale in a VM with HBA pass through. If I have a failure of one system I can move the HBA and drives over and fire up the VM on the second system. While doing real HA and such would be nice, it's just a home library in the end, so can't justify doing much more. The existing 836 has a TQ in it already.
@@draskuul I made a JBOD out of CSE826, it have only one SAS3 connecting going to it and then daisy chaining to LTO tape library, so in my CSE745 server I need only one 16 port/lanes HBA for 8 + 12 + 2 sas/sata devices in total with 4 lanes still left to spare, for something like 836 with expander:
16 drives with estimated bandwidth of 200MB/s => 1.6Gb/s per drive, with SAS3 you have budget of 48Gb/s (12*4) per single SFF cable, which can sustain 30 HDDs, and you can daisy chain them
The sale of the EL2 should easily pay for the TQ! Thanks for watching!
There should one more another type of backplane which are used in “twins” chassis.
Also another one for the SBB (storage bridge bay or so) storage-cluster-in-a-box, i.e. Nutanix, Tintri, Tegile, Nexenta and possibly TrueNAS. They have hot-swap connectors to the backplanes, but also are dual-ported. And docs are hard to be found.
The side by side walking through of the backplane technology iterations was great but I don’t think you got the TQ backplane pricing or desirability explanation quite right. While your explanation touched on the topics, the context emphasis and price references were not universally valid. Scenarios and pricing may be heavily chassis model specific, however for the 846 chassis, the TQ backplane tends to be the most or second most expensive as they tend to be the most desired and in demand backplane by forward thinking builders. While the TQ does require a couple more cables and potentially a PCIe SAS expander card, the TQ's have also been the most future proof. The beauty of the TQ backplane design is that they are just port pass throughs and therefore create no bottle neck nor drive speed ceiling unlike SAS protocol backplanes that have generation specific caps. Who wants a SAS backplane that will create a hard performance ceiling for their storage and become the bottleneck of their system over time? If you bought a chassis with a SAS-1 or SAS-2 backplane and later decide to upgrade to SAS-3 12Gbps SAS Drives and a SAS-3 12Gbps HBA\RAID controller; the SAS-1 or SAS-2 backplane is going to be an impediment to attaining the controller and drives max connectivity speed. To achieve 12Gbps connectivity, you’d either need a new SAS-3 backplane or a TQ backplane. Hence why the price of used 846 TQ backplanes run an average of $300-$500 on eBay. If you plan to keep the chassis \ system for any period of time, you would have been best off to started with the TQ backplane in the first place opposed to buying a part that had designed obsolescence baked in from its inception.
I'd have to disagree with you on that one. The TQ or A backplanes don't "future proof" you in anyway really. If you have a 3.5" drive backplane, you're likely to use spinning HDDs, and if you have a 2.5" drive backplane, you're likely to use SAS or SATA SSDs, or really old SAS HDDs. In the case of using spinning HDDs, which still cannot even exceed SAS-1 speeds, a SAS-2 expander isn't going to really hold you back when SAS-3 or SAS-4 (future) drives become available, so long as you're still spinning platters, so what's the point of 12Gbps when you're maxed out at around 2Gbps by the latency of spinning rust?
I recommend you watch this video where I explain about the performance limits of various types of storage technologies: th-cam.com/video/Q4e8kmuGm6o/w-d-xo.html
Also keep in mind, SAS-3, or even future SAS-4 isn't really where the future of storage is going to be anyway as things are moving towards NVMe/PCIe storage. So, future proofing SAS/SATA storage infrastructure is future proofing for a non-existent future really. The only future this stuff has is bulk cheap storage, but until something revolutionary comes along, spinning platters and moving arms around has physical latency limitations that is not likely to catch up to the latest SAS protocols.
Wish Supermicro made a SAS3 compatible version of the SAS733TQ backplane. Got a SAS3 Adaptec card and was getting random drive errors in TrueNAS Scale, Went back to my old SAS2 controller and no more errors!!! Supermicro was useless giving me any info claiming my back plane wasn't SAS3 yet another model that's identical to mine is used in a server they tested with SAS3!!!! WTF Supermicro? Make up your damn mind!
TQ backplanes usually will work with SAS-3, at least I've done it before successfully. The problem you described sounds more like a loose connection or bad cable issue.
@@ArtofServer Well here is my situation. I have their Mini Tower server case and built a TrueNAS Scale box with a LSI 9207-4i4e and 4 SAS3 drives. I picked up a Adaptec 8405 HBA for $25 and updated it and configed it for HBA use and stuck it in. Was getting great transfer speeds but got a few read write errors and a checksum errors (not at the same time BTW) and they didn't stick when I rebooted... I went back to my LSI and its been solid since. Then I went down the rabbit hole of talking to Supermicro and getting a very confused individual there trying to tell me it works, then doesn't work.... I bought a brand new cable for this card. I did have the eBay seller swap it out and I am waiting for the new card to get here.
Hello. EXCELLENT JOB BY THE WAY.....Question. I have a Seagate 8Tb Exos 7E8 ENTERPRISE(sas drive) that I want to add to my HP Z820. I need an adapter. From your Ebay Store......Any ideas..
THANK YOU.
Thanks for your kind words. The Z820 already has an onboard LSI controller that should be capable of handling that drive. I wouldn't recommend an additional controller.
@@ArtofServer perfect. Thank you .
@@ArtofServer ok. SUCCESS......Now, I want to make this hard drive my main boot up source. I tried everything, even downloading a driver for the HP Website. Nothing.......MERRY CHRISTMAS TO YOU AND YOUR FAMILY. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK.