Big fan of both Randy and Ben. Everyone can say what they want but foward facing sonar has indeed taken the hunt for bass out of the game. What used to take a huge amount of time on the water to learn seasonal patterns of bass has now been reduced to literally a 10 second scan of an area. For years before foward facing sonar was even invented you had pros that seemed to be always at the top ( VanDam, Brauer, Martin, Nixon , Clunn ect..) Those guys spent immense hours learning and always found their way to the top. Nowadays many tournaments are being won by guys whom come out of nowhere. It certainly seems to me that the tournaments that I see on TV are largely won by the use of foward facing sonar except maybe the Florida tournaments which are far more fun to watch. I think a revolving door of top finishers in the sport has hurt the sponsorship money as well. I think Ben has a point and I think Randy has a point but to say that foward facing sonar has not changed the sport that much is just a straight insult to intelligence.
I think and hope viewers would agree with me when I say this, you are both damn good anglers, both pretty good guys. We all are on the same side. We are all students of fishing and we all want to learn new things from any one we can. It's a damn shame people have to knock each other down. You two have pissed each other off. That's to bad because your both decent guys and damn good anglers.
I’m not on the hate for live scope. But Randy does have some good points. Most tournaments are won now with FFS. It’s changed tournament fishing into something different and a lot of other technics are becoming obsolete.
so did side scan when it came out. As the offshore fishing has become easier to do it turns out the bigger fish arent on the bank all year and you cant always compete just beating the bank.
@@RivestFishing that’s not really true. You could still compete flipping shallow cover or burning down the bank throwing top water. That more rare now with FFS.
I've been fishing for 30 years, Randy knows a lot more about bass fishing all you jits don't understand that is all not experienced enough to understand Randy, including Ben
@@cerebraltackleI understood just fine. Randy is concerned about the sport, the fish, the viewership etc. Millicant is concerned that he’s an expert on spotlighting and going to fish his 1st year on the Elites. You can’t legally spotlight deer so why should be able to pick out the largest fish live and focus on catching that particular one?
Another thought, when hunting birds on public land you can usually only hunt in the morning here in Texas so that the birds can have somewhere to roost in the afternoon without getting obliterated. Would you rather live on the streets 24/7 in a bad area or at least go home at night and feel safer in your home. You would probably live longer at least having a safe haven on a regular basis vs. not having one at all.
@@donaldgregg7818live scoping and spot lighting deer are 2 entirely different things. Deer freeze when you spot light them . Making them easy to shoot. Live scope shows you where the fish are . It doesn’t make them bite . Plus you can release your fish catch. You can spot light a deer legally if you don’t shoot it.
I don't agree with Randy. I believe I have the experience to back it up. I won the 1997 Big Bass World Championship in Randy's backyard on Table Rock Lake. I've caught 35 bass over 10lbs. Keep in mind 30 of my 10lb bass was before LiveScope existed.
It absolutely doesn’t matter what I think of FFS. It’s currently legal in tournaments so your at a HUGE disadvantage if you don’t have it. Rules are rules after all. Feelings are well….feelings.
I can agree with Randy on some aspects. When livescope first came out i think the ice fisherman had it first. I got to see it firsthand being an ice fishing tournament angler that regular sonar can not compete with livescope in the same tournament. They can see sideways and locate schools faster and then go fish them to see if they were active. It was a more efficient way to eliminate water and keep moving. No i agree you cant make fish bite by using it but to be more efficient is a huge advantage. I stopped tournament fishing on the ice because at the time i couldnt afford to jump into a livescope unit. I think some of the tournament's around here suffered for it and stopped because guys knew they couldn't compete with it. Then i saw tournaments try to break it into classes livescope with transportation on the ice in one guys with regular sonar walking and guys without any of it. It seemed like a good idea but the price to enter was all the same which is fine but the guys with the most expensive gear and transportation to move around had the highest %of money paid back in winnings over the guys that had to do more work walking and locating which didnt sit well with me. I think the best thing would be to have a completely separate tournament series where live scopes compete with each other and the purists fish againt each other. I also agree with Randy that peaople are losing their ability to use almost a sixth sense for fishing and adapting by relying on it so much to find fish. Lots of guys arent studying fish movement and structure as much anymore because they dont have to. I can also speak for it and i dont own one but will one day. I think maybe letting guys use it for practice only is the way to go and make the tournament days go with regular 2d/si/di. I think they need to try some things and see how it works. Technology is never going to stop so we need to make sure that fisheries are being studied to make sure we arent harming them in the long run. We may see some eventually especially being able to target fish out in the middle of nowhere where they werent being targeted before. The problem may eventually arise when viewership starts dropping for the tournament's on TV.
@davewylie654 they don't all have it at the tournament's I've fished. The first few years those guys dominated then a few years later they started separating them into their own division. I'm guess enough people felt it was an unfair advantage
@davewylie654 I miss reading part of your reply. You are saying all the bass tournament guys have it. I would agree most of them do so it's not an advantage in that situation except for the guys that refuse to move into it
If we want to discuss the financial disparity of fishing, Randy need to go look at all the Megabass products he have and tell us how one bait can cost more than a tank of gas.
I got a kick out of Ben saying he thought everything about FFS that needed to be invented, has been invented. I think there was a story about the head of the US patent office in the late 1800's also said that everything that needed to be invented, HAS been invented. Then the sonar expert on the panel basically says they are just scratching the surface, which is what Randy openly said he is afraid of.
Right, he acts like a punk and I don’t know how anyone can support him. 6th Sense is gonna lose business due to his mouth in my opinion. They could easily have a debate without acting like a rude and disrespectful punkass kid.
Agree. Ben hurt his brand with his histrionics on this podcast. He might eat a piece of humble pie on his next video and give a bit of a mea culpa to Randy and the viewers who tuned in to watch. That is a big ask of a narcissist though.
It's definitely all options & I'm not against or for FFS, it is a tool. We can learn from it about behaviors ext. I understand points from both perspectives! The one question I do ask myself about FFS is. Years down the road when it's less expensive & as common on every boat & kayak as 2D is now. What positive affects could FFS have on fish populations? Considering everyone the keeps them to eat & tournaments ? I honestly cannot think of one positive? Can you or anyone else think of one? I'm open to ideas/suggestions...
you know what else hurts fish populations fisherman lol if we want the best fish population we should just stop the fishing. Or we could trust the people whos jobs it is to manage the lake to set limits accordingly. If we see a population decline of crappie cool lower the crappie limit from 30 to 10 and in a year or 2 the population will be right back.
It definitely worsen the fishing, even everybody CR, still some fish would die. I hope the regulations would force everyone use barbless hooks, trout fisheries applied it long time ago.
I get both sides. I realize they’re both bass anglers but I’ve noticed a massive change in going and catching crappie. When FFS came out the number of crappie guides went up drastically. I think that over the years we’re going to see a decrease in crappie because of the numbers being kept. I have Livescope and love it. I mainly bass fish and don’t keep any. It helps me find structure to fish. If the bass guys keep fish like the crappie guys I’d be worried but they’re not. I think the number of bass tournaments on certain lakes have a bigger effect on bass than FFS does. Some lakes will multiple tournaments on weekends and jackpots during the week. Bottom line is since Covid more people are out and fishing on lakes. Then you add the new technology that brings out more. I’m concerned about the future of fishing in general. Just my opinion 😊
You can't really make much of a dent in the Crappie population, one female can lay like 50,000 eggs and the big girls can lay like 70,000 or more that's why it's good to throw the big ones back.
We have gone from four of us guiding for crappie to over 15 guides in the last 2 years on lake Eufaula AL. We all have FFS. Take it away and they would all quit in a day. I want to see 11 inch length limits and 10 fish limits on Crappie. Only way Crappie will have healthy populations. But like always Alabama won’t do anything until it’s about too late.
10$ for a jig...3,000$ for ffs. I know your trying to compare them in separate categories, but that's just ridiculous. Average, blue-collar class anglers have a tought time shelling out that kinda money for that technology. That's just a fact and it is making the sport harder to keep up with
@@charlesclayton7815 Wrong. Anyone know over the course of one season you will lose lures and have to replenish. I’ve spent $1000’s of dollars more on fishing equipment, lures, terminal tackle etc. in my lifetime than I have on a FFS transducer. And I would wager most other fishermen have also spent way more on fishing tackle than FFS.
$10 jig is 4x more than I would pay. Now if you do the math $3000 for ffs divided by 4 equals $750. I would think decent fish finders cost that. Not that I would even spend $750 for sonar tbh.
Exactly... cost has kept better fisherman from competing. So I'm here to say that the Pro's or so called Pro's are not the best on the water right now guaranteed
You dont fuss about a Mercedes vs a chevy cobalt....if you have the money you buy and enjoy, if you dont then you watch and wish.....ffs doesn't drive me to a spot or tell me where to go I go where I feel and then check the spot out ,but at the end of the day I took ffs to a spot ,not it taking me . If it wasn't on the boat I'm going to have that same feeling of where I believe the fish are ,and even if it shows me the fish ,it doesn't make them bite . 🤔
have had it for like 2 years and have not won a tournament using it but have won a couple beating the bank. It has caught me fish I would have otherwise not caught and it has also wasted a ton of time chasing fish that I dont even know were bass. For perspective the first tournament I fished with it and the first one my brother fished with it we both zeroed because we spent to much time looking at fish that were not even bass or not catchable. Its a tool the guys that have put in the time to dial in it have the advantage the same way the guys that jumped on side scan did.
I think they should use live scan during practice before a tournament and then gps your spots and come tournament time shut them off. Because now it becomes about money and not wanting to use the brain and learn fish habits and patterns. it takes the fun out of it and becomes a stressful job and fishing should feel good its you against the fish not you against the other anglers when it comes down to it that’s how it is. With live scan you can throw your whole arsenal of baits and pick 5 that are going to do the job to get fish in the boat or if you know patterns like the OG’s of bass fishing guys you don’t need live scan. But if Your just starting out bass fishing and you got the coin to spend on live scan could be a good expensive way to learn. But pattern fishing is by far the best way of learning this sport especially cast presentation. Remember when your out make it fun it’s search and conquer and that is the best feeling ever. More stress equals smaller fish. less stress equals bigger better fish. And that money.
I am with Randy! fishing is about getting out in nature and enjoying the great outdoors, spending the entire time fishing staring into another device is like playing video games all day. I like to use it for depth and finding structure.
For you, this is perfect. One size does not fit everyone. For me, fishing is all about having fun. I really enjoy my FFS. I want to understand fish & fishing lakes better. And this technology helps me do that. Being old & retired, having professionals use it & explain it. Helps me understand how to use it better. You probably still catch more fish than me, but I'm having just as much fun my way.
The big difference is you’re not fishing for hundreds of thousands of dollars . If you invest as much time and effort as all these pros and everyone is using ffs and you didn’t guarantee you’re not making money .
Ok so your "feelings" about a certain device is what makes rules??? So if fishing is about getting out on the water why does Randy need a 100k+ boat that goes 70mph??? So what if my feelings say he shouldn't be able to use that??? Well that would be stupid because he isn't gaining an advantage just like when the whole field has FFS
Ben destroyed him in that podcast. All Randy came with is his supporters opinions which will be the same as his. Ben came with facts. Randy can't comprehend that his supporters is not how the whole fishing industry feel. I been unsubscribed from Crazy Randy's channel.
Ben needs to show the analytics and viewership numbers after each event. That way we see if the whole picture of views are up or down. Regardless if you use it or not Bass is in it to make money but if no one’s watching then that needs addressed
Do you think the whole fishing industry supports livescope? Do you believe people that PAY to fish professionally should be the measuring stick for us Average Joe anglers who don't give a rat's @$$ about livescope? There is ZERO sport in being able to see fish take your bait. NONE. If you look at Ben's channel, he spends a whole lot time talking Randy down than Randy does talking HIM down. That says a lot about him.
I don't think the debate solved a thing. One thing I picked on was Ben stated this 33yr study - forward facing teck has only been open commercially for five years!?! That would be flawed statistics. Experience has alot to be said for itself. The real question is should FFS be taken out of tournaments. The turbine engine was ban from Indy car, NASCAR banned the Buick heads, "generated too much horsepower" ! Should a professional angler "need" FFS thats for the tournament head to decide. Is it a determent for the fish population? I would have to say a new study on this tech needs to happen, has it effected the sport we love. Can FFS progress further? Knowing military tech as I do, I would say this is just being trickled out for corporate wealth. Just take a look at the helment mounted HUD on the F35. It's just the beginning. BASS & FLW will continue to take tech money or not.
You nailed it! The technology advances will be trickled out and eventually the current FFS proponents will be whining about the rising costs and unfairness while the next generation tells THEM to get with the times. Fish may not always bite but a lot of fishermen have certainly been hooked by the electronics companies- and they don’t even feel the hook yet! Ben thinking the technology is already at its limit is unbelievably naive.
I am on the side with Randy to a point. The cost of a sport that your average joe could afford to do with minimal investment has gotten way out of control. I also have a lot of FEELINGS against FFS, but I can honestly admit that. I also work in an industry that relies on empirical data. Not blind biased opinions and that is where I agree with Ben. He has the data and stats to backup his argument and it's one of biggest complaints about Randy and his channel. FFS is not his only video were he makes an argument based solely on his biased observation. He'll even make video's complaining that people aren't watching some of his videos. Like he has some how released the secret code to all of BASS fishing. Ben nails it when referring to Randy's commenters. I've scrolled through Randy's comment section and there are very few if any dissenting opinions in Randy's comment section. For lack of a better description, it's a bunch of ass kissing. I upgraded to a FFS unit this year myself and I've done so for a few reasons. 1 being that, I want more than just my feelings on the matter to be what influences my opinion. I want hard evidence and what better evidence can I have than to see if my fishing improves with the upgrade. I can always sell the electronics as used and get some of my money back. I also did it to pair with my trolling motor upgrade as wind pushes my boat around a lot and the Lowrance system works best if everything matches. 8K is cheaper than 80K for truck and 60K for a boat. If I only needed a boat it would be one thing. But I also need a truck to safely pull a fiber glass boat with.
They only way to push the argument for Randy is to throw out the unfair advantage it brings. For example, pro baseball requires wooden bats, because aluminum bats are an unfair advantage, or steroids, everyone can get em but they are banned from sports because of an unfair advantage, dirt track racing (im from the Midwest) people have been caught using traction control, anyone can purchase and use it, but it’s deemed illegal due to an unfair advantage…..I’m not against FFS, but I think this is the only proper way to defend your case Randy. Maybe word it smarter as I’m just a dumb guy from Kansas that fishes out of my grandpas 1976 ray craft, but you get the point
If u hate livescope then u should probably hate side scan down scan and for that matter any other electronic devices that could give u an edge on the fish 🤷♂️
I still want to know why nobody is outraged that jet drives and tunnel hulls are banned. I’m not for limiting technology but it seems to me that’s been the norm for some time. Ben is probably better at debating but no statistics data sounds like we don’t know to me. I’m tired of Scoopers saying I don’t understand. My Grandfather knew those fish were out there in the 50’s, he caught them trolling a flat fish. If trolling was allowed fall tournaments would have been won 50 years ago fishing for them. FFS just made it efficient to cast at fish that we all knew were there for a long time.
MY OPINION IS IT IS JUST ANOTHER PLATFORM TO ENHANCE THE FISHING EXPERIENCE. WITH THAT SAID, I DO BELIEVE THAT IF YOU ARE IN A TOURNAMENT WITH PEOPLE WHO HAVE IT AND DONT HAVE IT THEN I BELIEVE IT PUTS THE ANGLERS WITHOUT IT AT A DISADVANTAGE . WHEN I WATCH THE BPT OR THE BASSMASTERS THEY ALL HAVE IT SO I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THEM USING IT. DOESNT ALWAYS MAKE FOR FUN WATCHING, BUT I GET IT.
Forward facing sonar is an evolution of technology in the sport of fishing. It’s no different than the sport of hunting getting clearer more powerful rifle scopes or even rifle scopes that integrate range finding technology. Or how about states that allow Crossbows with rifle scopes during traditional bow hunting season. People complained in my state of Maryland when they changed the hunting laws and allowed Crossbows to be used during bow hunting season. People said it was an unfair advantage, deer were going to be hunted to extinction, blah blah blah. Maryland Department of Natural Resources statistics have since shown over the years there has been no real change in the annual number of deer killed during archery season. Ask Randy when he hunts if he uses a rifle scope or does he hunt with a rifle using open metal sights. Is the advance in scope technology an unfair advantage in hunting or is it an evolution that gets more people interested in hunting? Forward facing sonar is no different - it’s getting more people interested in fishing and will ultimately help grow the sport.
Your way off with this ridiculous analogy. FFS is not like using a scope lol. It’s like using a satellite with infrared cameras to locate deer beds.. and then following an app on your phone to guide you through the forest to within an inch of your deerlmao. I guess you think that’s a sporting way to hunt?? And it wouldn’t affect the deer population lmao.. You people are ridiculous.. and that’s why your kids won’t have any Bass left to fish for
I think Randy is on to something with the tradition of the sport and thats where the fight should be not on the conservation aspect because the data on FFS harming fish populations is just not there yet
There are objective truths and there are subjective truths. Objective truths are true regardless of opinion, subjective truth is simply an opinion that happens to be true at that time. For example we live on planet earth, that is an objective truth. I think pepperoni and mushroom pizza is my favorite, that is subjective. Randy came at this subjectively, Ben came it more objectively than Randy. I’m not caught up on all of Ben’s views. However, Randy’s views on this does not hold up to the laws of logic. Most commonly breaking the law of noncontradiction. Which make his arguments illogical.
Randy has a "it's my truth" mentality. Poisonous. On top of that, he has been making videos bashing other TH-cam anglers for a while. Thinks he's the arbiter of who should or shouldn't be big in the bass fishing TH-cam space. Typical old dude thwarted by technology and has his panties in a bind because time passed him by. Dang these wipper snappers and their rock n roll music!
I truly believe seriously that half of Randy's followers are not bass fisherman like from the Ozarks and the south. I read some of their comments and they have to be Bank boys....
Randy believes that his perspective on LiveScope is just so sophisticated, the only reason to disagree with it is because "...you just don't get it." Textbook gaslighting.
There are things to be said for both sides. The real issue or concerns is does it hurt the fisheries and does it take away from the " SPORT" of bass fishing. I do want to say that talking about a 33 year study on fisheries that doesn't show FFS effects anything has no merit. FFS Has only been around for 5years. Not long enough to be relevant for that study.
I like both Ben and Randy and i agree with both. Not gonna lie im a live scope user myself and its not as simple as drop in fush come to my bait and bite like most people seems to see it. Still takes knowledge on where to go what to use. But it don't really make it easy on my experience. People would say if it doesn't make it easier then why spend money. My reply is do you got a flip phone or smart phone im sure its a smart phone cause we all move with technology.
There was no 33 year study on FFS. The stats he was using were stats on crappie. A guy that has an environmental studies degree should know the difference. Also should know that studies take time and need to be numerous before any conclusions can be made.
I liked it when he used the word "trending" when he was talking about 3 data points. I think he should have stayed at University of Nebraska-Lincoln instead of going to a satellite community college in Omaha-he might have learned a little more about real scientific methods, designs and limitation, and a concept called "power of test".
Can someone with the data compare catch rates (weights) in thr pro circuits over the past 5 years and validate whether or not the weights have increased with FFS?
Lmao what facts? Such a small percentage of anglers have ffs lmao give me a break. No comments about how utterly boring it is to watch a bunch of dudes staring at a screen with the same baits in hand
Exactly - I can take a 500 mile highway trip and my truck says I averaged 21.5 miles to the gallon. If I drive 20 miles to the lake when I get home and don't reset the screen, it says I averaged 20 miles per gallon. Did I really? Of course not. Sample size matters. There is not enough recorded data to support Ben's position. Full disclosure, I am subscribed to Ben's channel.
One awesome rule would be. If you show up with FFS on your boat you can only have single hook lures all day….. Lake Fork was looking like snagging. May or may not have been. But more than one fish was weighed that had hooks on out side of mouth. If BASS doesn’t find a way to make sure there is no snagging state law makers will…..
I don't see how forward facing sonar harms the fsh population unless more people are keeping the fish, or the frequency of the fish being caught is more and puts more stress on them. Also, it is bullshit when Ben says there isn't many more things we can do to make the technology better. There is zero doubt someone will come up with a way to identify the species, eventually having it be able to estimate size as well. For tournament fishing it should be banned, it looks so stupid, fisherman staring at a screen the entire time they retreive a lure. Just play a video game at that point.
My opinion; Live scope and all of the electronics that are surely to be developed in the near future that pertain to fishing, are going to do to the fishing industry what the internet has done to society in general. The internet, the worlds source of knowledge, has destroyed the moral fiber of the world. These new electronics are doing the same thing, in their own way, to the fishing industry. There has always been the debate on sight fishing for bedding bass. Life scope and these megaphones with the glass lenses that you can put in the water and watch the fish swim around like you were scuba diving, has allowed anglers to bed fish, so to speak, in 20 feet of water. I find that to be morally wrong. To me, it's no different than spotlighting deer or hunting for hogs and coyotes with night vision scopes. I agree with Randy 100%. Allow the anglers to use them in practice, but take the units off the boat during the tournament. Isn't 360 surround enough of an advantage?
Milliken so called data proves one thing that lakes are on a decline. He stated we seen the lowest fisj catch rates in 20, 21 if that's the case then it simply proves lakes are on a decline
Average individual salary in 1982 was $11k and I found an article where Elias remembers seeing a brand new "tricked out" Ranger for $20k. Average income now is $60k and it's about $120k for a fully maxed out to the teeth bass boat. Nothing has changed, people laughed at you then if you were a broke kid and told them you want to be a pro. It was possibly even harder back then. I like Ben and I like Randy. They both represent one thing, changing times. If Ben is still around in 30-40 years I bet he'll be bitching about $3.2 million bass boats and the automatic lake strainer that kids are using to grab the fish straight out the lake.
Remember that Randy wanted to be your doctor in 2020 and we know how that turned out. Milliken catches a lot of big fish,Randy talks a lot some of his info is pretty good. Times change ppl change and tactics change. If Randy doesn’t want to use ffs out tradition from his stand point he will catch fish,will he ever be competitive probably not
If you want tournament fishing to be purely a man, with a fishing rod, catching more fish, than the other men with fishing rods. Eliminate all forms of GPS, sonar, depth finders, and any form of technology from being used on the boats. Guve everyone a paper topographical map just before blast off, no prefishing allowed, and make that be thr end of it. But if that is not what youre are in full support of, then stop crying about the advancement in technology. Period. End of story. Bite your tongue all the way off. Either be against the advancement of technology, or be in support of it, and learning not just how to use it, but also, helping learn how to continue to advance it. There is no fence to ride on this subject. Sidescan/downscan sonar amd mapping technology are more effective tools than forward facing sonar, and no one cared to say that they are cheating, or ruining anything when they hit the market. They were welcomed with open arms, and the people who didn't understand how to best use them, put in the time to figure that out. Many of those same people are now crying because they don't want to put in the work to learn the new technology, and gain the perceived advantage it's giving everyone else. When the entire time, they loved the benefits of having the best mapping and sonar technology available and the advantage it provided them, over the competitors who didnt have as great of an understanding of it, as they did. Either no tech should be allowed on the boat, or you should stop complaining and get back to work.
You hit the nail on the on head. I remember just having a map (not always a hydro map) and used a compass and triangulation to find spots where I had caught fish and wished to return to those spots. My depth finder was my fishing pole or my anchor. I do not wish to go back to those days. I love my side image, down image, forward image, 360 image, and gps along with trolling motor anchor lock and power poles. Thank you Jesus for giving this 72 year old man these technological advances. Anyone who does not like this can always go get a horse, cut a willow, dig up some grubs, and sit in a row boat all day for all I care. Just quit trying to tell other people how to live or fish.
The mystery of fishing is the most important and fun part about the sport! The only good thing about sonar is navigation on a lake! Real anglers do not need fishfinders to catch fish!
The whole point of forward facing sonar is to help anglers catch more fish . So was side and down imaging along with plain old sonar . If you are concerned about fish population, cancel gps and eliminate everything but sonar . GPS probably advanced offshore fishing more then scoping. Before gps , 90% of fishermen just fished the bank.
The video I made was a highlight video. There are actually a lot of highlights in the full interview. I only showed parts where Milliken or Randy was talking. There is a link at the end of the video and in the description to the full debate.
😂 Ben likes catching bass in a barrel with electronics that finds fish for him. Fishing without electronics takes critical thinking to locate them and the appropriate approach to get them to hit a lure. It takes applied knowledge of nature and fish behavior.
I call bullshit on that. Go look at Ben's videos from this past year in the opens. He uses his FFS, but that's not how he catches all his fish. When looking at the screen you can't tell what the fish is.. all it does is tell you there are fish in the area.
I think you need to go back and look at Ben's earlier videos when he was fishing alot of local derbies before FFS. He has put his time in and is a very good fisherman with or without FFS.
Using FFS is not a guarantee to catch everything you see! I've used it plenty alot of fish so not bite. But on other hand it does help you catch more fish than if you didn't have it. It's caused me to see fish, then fish for them & catch them I otherwise would not have seen or known about. Making adjustments to get them to bite I wouldn't have to to make. So it definitely does help you catch more fish! Which is why almost all tournaments are dominated with it! Better you can interpret what you see & fish reactions more fish you can catch.
Well put. I learn so much about the way fish react to weather, water temp, moon phase, and seasons that I never knew before, thanks to livescope. It is a great tool to teach you about fish behavior, but it does NOT make them bite.
You mentioned moon phases. I'm on the fence about how/ if moon phases make fresh water fishing better or not? I know moon directly effects tides so it has to make a difference for salt water. I know fish spawn around the moon. But I don't know if it makes them bite more/better fishing? I've really paid close attention to them past year. The bass master fishing calendar is based around it. I have done well on days that should be good. I've done good on days that were supposed to suck too. It's been very inconsistent for me? Actually most of my biggest largmouth have been caught on days that should have Not been good!?. My 5 biggest so far this year is 7.4 - 8.05 - 8.6 - 9.3 & my current PB an 11.4 I've had an incredible year caught multiple 6 & 7's & lost count of all the 4-5 pounders
@@maxcole3930 I’m in south Louisiana and will tell you for sure you’re wasting your time crappie fishing in the morning under a full moon. Last year about this time there was also a significant increase in bites an hour and a half before dark until sunset. I own my own HVAC business and have slow days in the winter where I can go fish. If it’s a full moon I’ll do stuff around the house until noon, and not waste my time on a fruitless morning trip. On top of a thousand crappie, no bites until 3:30- when they ALL turn on
If anyone thinks that the current forward facing sonar is the end of it, you better think again. The only question is "what's next"? Technology will continue its rapid advance whether you like it or not. Hell, I've already predicted that there will be a "drone-finder" linked to your boat that directs your boat to fish. It will identify size, species, etc. Doesn't that sound great, boats with buzzing drones chasing them around all over the lake. Anyway guys, there is no solution nor answer to this matter. It is what it is. Adapt or be done.
I love a live scope and I think it’s fun. I wish I had one. but I don’t think it has a place in pro bass fishing. Just like an aluminum ball bat don’t belong in pro baseball, how hitting to hard in football, a pitch clock, restrictor plates in nascar.
How FFS affects our fisheries is a problem that will fix its self in time. If it really does have a negative effect . State regulation’s will eventually take it into account.
Right. They will implement "bass seasons" like some northern states and some river systems. That will affect all anglers irrespective of if they have livescope or not. Then everyone will suffer.
@@cuivre2004 I don’t think that will happen . But who knows. I think there are other alternatives. The northern states are ran by liberals that love government regulation.
I'm in my 60's... I've seen and heard other aging fisherman stuck in their ways. Any new technique, any new electronics is bad. It's sad to see these people stuck in the past. I've decided there is no help for them. They will continue to keep their heads buried in hydrilla. I've commented to Randy to organize or get the word out for tournaments that will ban forward facing sonar. These will be separate from 'normal' tournaments. See if it works.. Umbrella rigs are banned, cast nets, etc... MLF tournaments are the best. Catch, measure, photo, release immediately. No female bass full of roe should be released at the ramp weigh-in. Innovations, inventions, are a good thing. Nothing really surprises me. (I don't have foward sonar) Let's all go back to spear fishing. 😅
Thanks for your service as well. This is just a highlights video. Links are in the description. Milliken will be on my livestream tomorrow 8pm EST. There will be a viewer question/answer segment also.
This is the same Randy that calls braid to fluoro/mono leader a fad and will go away. The same braid that's been around for 30 years now. 😂 Dude's living in Yesterdayland.
Keep up the GREAT REVIEWS... 👍🏻 It was hammer time. Great podcast, and this was a great teaser review. I like Randy, but if you have followed him since the beginning, he has gained traction in the fishing community being a "Negative Nancy." He does have some good content, but don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Remember, he dogged the Googan Squad & Social Media. Now he is doing the same thing... 🤔 Luke Duncan pointed this out on Low Budget LIVE, too! LD can be a "Negative Nancy," too, but he has some good podcasts. Mercer is my favorite, and his numbers reflect why... 🍺🎣
I just think Randy is salty because he fell behind and has not been competitive with the so called "elite" anglers and need something to blame. I personally think he's a 🤡
I was not waiting for this video. I don’t care what two pro fisherman think of each others’ opinions. This is crazy, let’s all just get back to fishing.
Forward facing sonar/live scope is just another tool, much like the umbrella rig which is banned. And just like the umbrella rig, the only people who want Forward facing sonar/live scope banned are the ones who don't want to put the time in to LEARN it.
So when sales drop on FFS, can we expect Live Scope scrambling boxes and Electric Prod Scope next from the electronic companies? Will the "advanced" modern pro angler accept this technology as well? When does this end? If you call yourself a pro, prove it. Go out there with a flasher, a temp gauge and a topo map. We all want to see your intuition, skills, your gut instinct, your mastery of your craft from countless hours on the water. Instead we get your head down for 8 hrs staring at a screen with a tungsten prototype ripbait nobody else has access to tied on the end of your rod.
Problem is you have put more stock into your “intuition” mantua exists. That’s all in your head. You’re just getting lucky. Real fishing is making a fish bite, not hoping to get bit and telling yourself a story that makes you feel like a “skilled” angler.
if live scope made it that easy to catch big fish and 50 guys in the tournament had it and 50 didnt have it wouldnt it be a 50 way tie for first place.
I'd like to see a tourney trail that banned FFS so I could watch pro anglers using instincts to catch bass. Let the other leagues have there big screens. Ofcourse that won't happen because money is what it's all about. FFS is making the sport boring in some ways and a lot of guys who caught their first bass on a hula popper in a pond at the age of 7, and fell in love with the mystery of "where did that come from".....would like to see it gone
How about this - let your talent show with the rod and reel - not a piece of technology that actually shows you the fish in real time and how the fish are reacting to your baits???? I'm not the biggest fan of Randy's but I'm on his side with this one.
Randy is correct forward facing sonar has no place in professional fishing....and the a rig is the same doesnt belong in tournaments....forward facing sonar takes all the skill out of fishing anyone can ride around and find fish with it
@lljustice3877 so your cool with just riding around and letting electronics find people fish unstead of using skill to find them....watching b.a.s.s. is real fun with the new wanna be pros watching a tv screen all day
@@mikel.4885 I never watch Bass tournaments on tv anyway. It’s like watching golf to me even before FFS came along. Maybe I’m old school because I only read Bassmaster magazines and watched Bill Dance, Hank Parker, Roland Martin and Jimmy Houston growing up. But you said it yourself, if FFS is finding the fish and needs to be banned then why stop there? Mega360, Sidescan, Downscan and Traditional also find fish. So if it’s all about “skill” then get rid of them all in tournaments. Randy wants to cherry pick based on nothing but his opinion and feelings. He has no problem stating that it’s ruining the Bass fisheries but has never ever provided one iota of factual research papers or data from the people who are actually tasked with keeping our fisheries healthy and sustainable. You both are welcome to your opinions but as far as I’m concerned it stops there. I’ve fished with FFS for about 2 years now. My experience is you still need the skill to know where fish will be on any given lake which is still dependent on weather, time of year etc. Even then you only see a small image because the sonar itself is like a small cone where 60 feet away the widest part of the cone is only giving you maybe 15 feet of image. What’s that doing for you on a 5,000 or 10,000 acre lake? Even then 95% of the fish I see that I interpret to be Bass will not bite a lure that I present.
Tell randy go back to spears and arrows to catch his fish. Because all he has been using is bass fishing technologies to help advance his fishing career. Didn't he use sonar before. It costed alot when it first came out. A boat. He just sounds like the old dude yelling from his porch. It's called progress.
Forward facing sonar is the same as the illegal bat in pro baseball. It's not good for the bass fishing pro side of things. Keep it in the sport and watch the decline as it takes its place in the mix. Oh yeah, watch the decline in the bass population, also.
Thanks for watching and supporting the channel. I've heard someone mention the bat analogy before but they didn't explain it. Do you mind clarifying how they are the same?
They are not the same, only similar in the impact on the bass fishing world and at what cost. One danger is, it's a lot different, for me, than buying a Whopper Plopper or a Megabass jerkbait after seeing a pro do good using either. The pro-bass world will be addressing this over time or suffer due to the drop in every other aspect of marketing to the bass fishing population.
It's been the same old song and dance when new technology or a new hot bait has hit the stage..... from flasher graphs to screen image to GPS, to side scan and now to ffs.... most don't realize you can take 2d sonar turn it forward, figure out your angles and have ffs in 2d... yes images, ect are better on the new stuff but 10 15 years ago.... innovative thinking helped me out in certain situations on the water.
Big fan of both Randy and Ben. Everyone can say what they want but foward facing sonar has indeed taken the hunt for bass out of the game. What used to take a huge amount of time on the water to learn seasonal patterns of bass has now been reduced to literally a 10 second scan of an area. For years before foward facing sonar was even invented you had pros that seemed to be always at the top ( VanDam, Brauer, Martin, Nixon , Clunn ect..) Those guys spent immense hours learning and always found their way to the top. Nowadays many tournaments are being won by guys whom come out of nowhere. It certainly seems to me that the tournaments that I see on TV are largely won by the use of foward facing sonar except maybe the Florida tournaments which are far more fun to watch. I think a revolving door of top finishers in the sport has hurt the sponsorship money as well. I think Ben has a point and I think Randy has a point but to say that foward facing sonar has not changed the sport that much is just a straight insult to intelligence.
💯 agree for those that deny or downplay its impact
Did anyone in the video say that it hasn't changed the sport because I didn't hear any of that?
ffs is cheating period. Randy is 10000% spot on
This video was too saturated with movie and show clips to watch comfortably. Maybe tone those down a bit.
I think and hope viewers would agree with me when I say this, you are both damn good anglers, both pretty good guys. We all are on the same side. We are all students of fishing and we all want to learn new things from any one we can. It's a damn shame people have to knock each other down. You two have pissed each other off. That's to bad because your both decent guys and damn good anglers.
This is the best comment on this video
I love watching them both and it was hard for me to watch this. I just came straight to the comments.
I’m not on the hate for live scope. But Randy does have some good points. Most tournaments are won now with FFS. It’s changed tournament fishing into something different and a lot of other technics are becoming obsolete.
so did side scan when it came out. As the offshore fishing has become easier to do it turns out the bigger fish arent on the bank all year and you cant always compete just beating the bank.
@@RivestFishing that’s not really true. You could still compete flipping shallow cover or burning down the bank throwing top water. That more rare now with FFS.
You ever tried fishing shallow with ffs?
@@Coyotesinc22 a little. So far no success though
@@timg185 In my experience it hardly helps at all
I've been fishing for 30 years, Randy knows a lot more about bass fishing all you jits don't understand that is all not experienced enough to understand Randy, including Ben
Can you try that again? This time coherently?
@@cerebraltackleI understood just fine. Randy is concerned about the sport, the fish, the viewership etc. Millicant is concerned that he’s an expert on spotlighting and going to fish his 1st year on the Elites. You can’t legally spotlight deer so why should be able to pick out the largest fish live and focus on catching that particular one?
Another thought, when hunting birds on public land you can usually only hunt in the morning here in Texas so that the birds can have somewhere to roost in the afternoon without getting obliterated. Would you rather live on the streets 24/7 in a bad area or at least go home at night and feel safer in your home. You would probably live longer at least having a safe haven on a regular basis vs. not having one at all.
@@donaldgregg7818live scoping and spot lighting deer are 2 entirely different things. Deer freeze when you spot light them . Making them easy to shoot.
Live scope shows you where the fish are . It doesn’t make them bite . Plus you can release your fish catch.
You can spot light a deer legally if you don’t shoot it.
I don't agree with Randy. I believe I have the experience to back it up. I won the 1997 Big Bass World Championship in Randy's backyard on Table Rock Lake. I've caught 35 bass over 10lbs. Keep in mind 30 of my 10lb bass was before LiveScope existed.
It absolutely doesn’t matter what I think of FFS. It’s currently legal in tournaments so your at a HUGE disadvantage if you don’t have it.
Rules are rules after all. Feelings are well….feelings.
I can agree with Randy on some aspects. When livescope first came out i think the ice fisherman had it first. I got to see it firsthand being an ice fishing tournament angler that regular sonar can not compete with livescope in the same tournament. They can see sideways and locate schools faster and then go fish them to see if they were active. It was a more efficient way to eliminate water and keep moving. No i agree you cant make fish bite by using it but to be more efficient is a huge advantage. I stopped tournament fishing on the ice because at the time i couldnt afford to jump into a livescope unit. I think some of the tournament's around here suffered for it and stopped because guys knew they couldn't compete with it. Then i saw tournaments try to break it into classes livescope with transportation on the ice in one guys with regular sonar walking and guys without any of it. It seemed like a good idea but the price to enter was all the same which is fine but the guys with the most expensive gear and transportation to move around had the highest %of money paid back in winnings over the guys that had to do more work walking and locating which didnt sit well with me. I think the best thing would be to have a completely separate tournament series where live scopes compete with each other and the purists fish againt each other. I also agree with Randy that peaople are losing their ability to use almost a sixth sense for fishing and adapting by relying on it so much to find fish. Lots of guys arent studying fish movement and structure as much anymore because they dont have to. I can also speak for it and i dont own one but will one day. I think maybe letting guys use it for practice only is the way to go and make the tournament days go with regular 2d/si/di. I think they need to try some things and see how it works. Technology is never going to stop so we need to make sure that fisheries are being studied to make sure we arent harming them in the long run. We may see some eventually especially being able to target fish out in the middle of nowhere where they werent being targeted before. The problem may eventually arise when viewership starts dropping for the tournament's on TV.
They all have it man it's not like an ice fishing tournament. If the whole field can use it how is it an advantage for certain guys????
@davewylie654 they don't all have it at the tournament's I've fished. The first few years those guys dominated then a few years later they started separating them into their own division. I'm guess enough people felt it was an unfair advantage
@davewylie654 I miss reading part of your reply. You are saying all the bass tournament guys have it. I would agree most of them do so it's not an advantage in that situation except for the guys that refuse to move into it
Would you work a cross word puzzle if you already had all the answers?
If we want to discuss the financial disparity of fishing, Randy need to go look at all the Megabass products he have and tell us how one bait can cost more than a tank of gas.
And the dude never takes of that dumb sausage hat
He also sells a 10 dollar jig that costs 89cents to make
I got a kick out of Ben saying he thought everything about FFS that needed to be invented, has been invented. I think there was a story about the head of the US patent office in the late 1800's also said that everything that needed to be invented, HAS been invented. Then the sonar expert on the panel basically says they are just scratching the surface, which is what Randy openly said he is afraid of.
😂😂😂😂 he’s a man child 🤡
If FFS doesn't help ppl catch more fish then why do people even buy it. Ben is a live scoper it's why he loves it
Jealous because you're not at his level of fishing. Money boat and doing what he love. That's all.
@@jones1394 nope couldn't care less dude I'd a legit 🤡
Why do people buy Mega360, Sidescan, Downscan and traditional?
Shows where the fish are 🤷♂️
Ben acted like a kid the entire show rolling eyes wiping his face walking away
Right, he acts like a punk and I don’t know how anyone can support him. 6th Sense is gonna lose business due to his mouth in my opinion. They could easily have a debate without acting like a rude and disrespectful punkass kid.
I agree! Kinda made me think of a bratty kid arguing with an adult about why he should have a cell phone at the age of 9 🤣
At the end randy wished him well on the elites and Ben didn't bother to say anything
Yup Ben didn't even acknowledge him when he said what's up to everyone in the beginning
Agree. Ben hurt his brand with his histrionics on this podcast. He might eat a piece of humble pie on his next video and give a bit of a mea culpa to Randy and the viewers who tuned in to watch. That is a big ask of a narcissist though.
It's definitely all options & I'm not against or for FFS, it is a tool. We can learn from it about behaviors ext. I understand points from both perspectives! The one question I do ask myself about FFS is. Years down the road when it's less expensive & as common on every boat & kayak as 2D is now. What positive affects could FFS have on fish populations? Considering everyone the keeps them to eat & tournaments ? I honestly cannot think of one positive? Can you or anyone else think of one? I'm open to ideas/suggestions...
No effect because natural have a wY of correcting things. Bass hatch millions of eggs every year. So how the hell are we going to destroy them.😮
The positive is that it helps the electronics manufacturer's bottom line that much fatter.
That's not a positive... Noone can answer that question, I can't either. But if someone can I'm listening
you know what else hurts fish populations fisherman lol if we want the best fish population we should just stop the fishing. Or we could trust the people whos jobs it is to manage the lake to set limits accordingly. If we see a population decline of crappie cool lower the crappie limit from 30 to 10 and in a year or 2 the population will be right back.
It definitely worsen the fishing, even everybody CR, still some fish would die. I hope the regulations would force everyone use barbless hooks, trout fisheries applied it long time ago.
MB, there you are? What happened to the livestream last week?
I got shut down lol. Reached out to Milliken. He will be on the livestream tomorrow night live. There will be a live question/answer segment too.
Oh wow! I'll check it..
I get both sides. I realize they’re both bass anglers but I’ve noticed a massive change in going and catching crappie. When FFS came out the number of crappie guides went up drastically. I think that over the years we’re going to see a decrease in crappie because of the numbers being kept. I have Livescope and love it. I mainly bass fish and don’t keep any. It helps me find structure to fish. If the bass guys keep fish like the crappie guys I’d be worried but they’re not. I think the number of bass tournaments on certain lakes have a bigger effect on bass than FFS does. Some lakes will multiple tournaments on weekends and jackpots during the week. Bottom line is since Covid more people are out and fishing on lakes. Then you add the new technology that brings out more. I’m concerned about the future of fishing in general. Just my opinion 😊
You can't really make much of a dent in the Crappie population, one female can lay like 50,000 eggs and the big girls can lay like 70,000 or more that's why it's good to throw the big ones back.
Bucket brigade is relentless. Now with FFS, they catch, get limits, and reduce fish population. Sad.
Limit should go lower! Same happened to Florida, FWD lowers limits all the time, you can keep only one redfish now in certain slot.
We have gone from four of us guiding for crappie to over 15 guides in the last 2 years on lake Eufaula AL. We all have FFS. Take it away and they would all quit in a day. I want to see 11 inch length limits and 10 fish limits on Crappie. Only way Crappie will have healthy populations. But like always Alabama won’t do anything until it’s about too late.
Are underwater cameras allowed?
might as well.
hey Ryan, thanks much for putting the clips together for us. Gets pretty heated for sure!
Thanks for watching and continuing to support the channel!
Funny how Randy talks about how much the electronics are but expects you to pay $10 for his jigs and $25 for jerkbaits
10$ for a jig...3,000$ for ffs. I know your trying to compare them in separate categories, but that's just ridiculous. Average, blue-collar class anglers have a tought time shelling out that kinda money for that technology. That's just a fact and it is making the sport harder to keep up with
Exactly
Apples and traincars comparison.
@@charlesclayton7815
Wrong. Anyone know over the course of one season you will lose lures and have to replenish. I’ve spent $1000’s of dollars more on fishing equipment, lures, terminal tackle etc. in my lifetime than I have on a FFS transducer.
And I would wager most other fishermen have also spent way more on fishing tackle than FFS.
$10 jig is 4x more than I would pay. Now if you do the math $3000 for ffs divided by 4 equals $750. I would think decent fish finders cost that. Not that I would even spend $750 for sonar tbh.
Exactly... cost has kept better fisherman from competing. So I'm here to say that the Pro's or so called Pro's are not the best on the water right now guaranteed
You dont fuss about a Mercedes vs a chevy cobalt....if you have the money you buy and enjoy, if you dont then you watch and wish.....ffs doesn't drive me to a spot or tell me where to go I go where I feel and then check the spot out ,but at the end of the day I took ffs to a spot ,not it taking me . If it wasn't on the boat I'm going to have that same feeling of where I believe the fish are ,and even if it shows me the fish ,it doesn't make them bite . 🤔
Question. For FFS users. If you fish 10 tournaments. How many tournaments will you win using FFS?
have had it for like 2 years and have not won a tournament using it but have won a couple beating the bank. It has caught me fish I would have otherwise not caught and it has also wasted a ton of time chasing fish that I dont even know were bass. For perspective the first tournament I fished with it and the first one my brother fished with it we both zeroed because we spent to much time looking at fish that were not even bass or not catchable. Its a tool the guys that have put in the time to dial in it have the advantage the same way the guys that jumped on side scan did.
I think they should use live scan during practice before a tournament and then gps your spots and come tournament time shut them off. Because now it becomes about money and not wanting to use the brain and learn fish habits and patterns. it takes the fun out of it and becomes a stressful job and fishing should feel good its you against the fish not you against the other anglers when it comes down to it that’s how it is. With live scan you can throw your whole arsenal of baits and pick 5 that are going to do the job to get fish in the boat or if you know patterns like the OG’s of bass fishing guys you don’t need live scan. But if Your just starting out bass fishing and you got the coin to spend on live scan could be a good expensive way to learn. But pattern fishing is by far the best way of learning this sport especially cast presentation. Remember when your out make it fun it’s search and conquer and that is the best feeling ever. More stress equals smaller fish. less stress equals bigger better fish. And that money.
How can anyone complain about the price of a live scope with a ranger boat is $100,000
I am with Randy! fishing is about getting out in nature and enjoying the great outdoors, spending the entire time fishing staring into another device is like playing video games all day. I like to use it for depth and finding structure.
For you, this is perfect. One size does not fit everyone. For me, fishing is all about having fun. I really enjoy my FFS. I want to understand fish & fishing lakes better. And this technology helps me do that. Being old & retired, having professionals use it & explain it. Helps me understand how to use it better. You probably still catch more fish than me, but I'm having just as much fun my way.
The big difference is you’re not fishing for hundreds of thousands of dollars . If you invest as much time and effort as all these pros and everyone is using ffs and you didn’t guarantee you’re not making money .
Ok so your "feelings" about a certain device is what makes rules??? So if fishing is about getting out on the water why does Randy need a 100k+ boat that goes 70mph??? So what if my feelings say he shouldn't be able to use that??? Well that would be stupid because he isn't gaining an advantage just like when the whole field has FFS
I’m closer to Randy’s age and old enough to remember a similar dustup when basic graph depthfinders came out in the 80s
90% of successful fishing is based on knowing where the fish are. Livescope is akin to using thermal imaging to hunt deer.
Ben destroyed him in that podcast. All Randy came with is his supporters opinions which will be the same as his. Ben came with facts. Randy can't comprehend that his supporters is not how the whole fishing industry feel. I been unsubscribed from Crazy Randy's channel.
Ben needs to show the analytics and viewership numbers after each event. That way we see if the whole picture of views are up or down. Regardless if you use it or not Bass is in it to make money but if no one’s watching then that needs addressed
@@timevans6815in Dave Mercer’s interview with Randy he stated that bass’s viewership is up 11 % this year
@@scratch1990 of course it Mercer bass mc. If it’s up then why are people so concerned about it?
@@timevans6815 I believe it’s probably more people not as concerned as in the Blaukat camp
Do you think the whole fishing industry supports livescope? Do you believe people that PAY to fish professionally should be the measuring stick for us Average Joe anglers who don't give a rat's @$$ about livescope? There is ZERO sport in being able to see fish take your bait. NONE.
If you look at Ben's channel, he spends a whole lot time talking Randy down than Randy does talking HIM down. That says a lot about him.
Great video Ryan 👏👏👏👏
Thanks!
fishing certainly has become very expensive
I don't think the debate solved a thing. One thing I picked on was Ben stated this 33yr study - forward facing teck has only been open commercially for five years!?! That would be flawed statistics. Experience has alot to be said for itself. The real question is should FFS be taken out of tournaments. The turbine engine was ban from Indy car, NASCAR banned the Buick heads, "generated too much horsepower" ! Should a professional angler "need" FFS thats for the tournament head to decide. Is it a determent for the fish population? I would have to say a new study on this tech needs to happen, has it effected the sport we love. Can FFS progress further? Knowing military tech as I do, I would say this is just being trickled out for corporate wealth. Just take a look at the helment mounted HUD on the F35. It's just the beginning. BASS & FLW will continue to take tech money or not.
You nailed it! The technology advances will be trickled out and eventually the current FFS proponents will be whining about the rising costs and unfairness while the next generation tells THEM to get with the times. Fish may not always bite but a lot of fishermen have certainly been hooked by the electronics companies- and they don’t even feel the hook yet! Ben thinking the technology is already at its limit is unbelievably naive.
I am on the side with Randy to a point. The cost of a sport that your average joe could afford to do with minimal investment has gotten way out of control. I also have a lot of FEELINGS against FFS, but I can honestly admit that. I also work in an industry that relies on empirical data. Not blind biased opinions and that is where I agree with Ben. He has the data and stats to backup his argument and it's one of biggest complaints about Randy and his channel. FFS is not his only video were he makes an argument based solely on his biased observation. He'll even make video's complaining that people aren't watching some of his videos. Like he has some how released the secret code to all of BASS fishing. Ben nails it when referring to Randy's commenters. I've scrolled through Randy's comment section and there are very few if any dissenting opinions in Randy's comment section. For lack of a better description, it's a bunch of ass kissing. I upgraded to a FFS unit this year myself and I've done so for a few reasons. 1 being that, I want more than just my feelings on the matter to be what influences my opinion. I want hard evidence and what better evidence can I have than to see if my fishing improves with the upgrade. I can always sell the electronics as used and get some of my money back. I also did it to pair with my trolling motor upgrade as wind pushes my boat around a lot and the Lowrance system works best if everything matches. 8K is cheaper than 80K for truck and 60K for a boat. If I only needed a boat it would be one thing. But I also need a truck to safely pull a fiber glass boat with.
They only way to push the argument for Randy is to throw out the unfair advantage it brings. For example, pro baseball requires wooden bats, because aluminum bats are an unfair advantage, or steroids, everyone can get em but they are banned from sports because of an unfair advantage, dirt track racing (im from the Midwest) people have been caught using traction control, anyone can purchase and use it, but it’s deemed illegal due to an unfair advantage…..I’m not against FFS, but I think this is the only proper way to defend your case Randy. Maybe word it smarter as I’m just a dumb guy from Kansas that fishes out of my grandpas 1976 ray craft, but you get the point
If u hate livescope then u should probably hate side scan down scan and for that matter any other electronic devices that could give u an edge on the fish 🤷♂️
I have live scope and it's a big difference. Randy is right they should allow it in pre fishing but not in the actual tournaments.
Take forward facing sonar away then you will see the cream rise to the top
I still want to know why nobody is outraged that jet drives and tunnel hulls are banned. I’m not for limiting technology but it seems to me that’s been the norm for some time. Ben is probably better at debating but no statistics data sounds like we don’t know to me. I’m tired of Scoopers saying I don’t understand. My Grandfather knew those fish were out there in the 50’s, he caught them trolling a flat fish. If trolling was allowed fall tournaments would have been won 50 years ago fishing for them. FFS just made it efficient to cast at fish that we all knew were there for a long time.
Yes. I'm upset about the jet drives and tunnel hulls not being legal in many bass tournaments. Also tiller steering.
@@andywilliamson7846 a 21ft 250 boat isn’t always the best tool for bass fishing. You can’t use a fly rod either.
this was a phenomenal debate but, when you are showing the highlights, we dont need the extra clips. Just let the information fly
MY OPINION IS IT IS JUST ANOTHER PLATFORM TO ENHANCE THE FISHING EXPERIENCE. WITH THAT SAID, I DO BELIEVE THAT IF YOU ARE IN A TOURNAMENT WITH PEOPLE WHO HAVE IT AND DONT HAVE IT THEN I BELIEVE IT PUTS THE ANGLERS WITHOUT IT AT A DISADVANTAGE . WHEN I WATCH THE BPT OR THE BASSMASTERS THEY ALL HAVE IT SO I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THEM USING IT. DOESNT ALWAYS MAKE FOR FUN WATCHING, BUT I GET IT.
I agree- it doesn't take that big of an advantage by a group of anglers to separate themselves from the field of those who do not have it.
If you really want to find out have 1/2 the tournaments with and 1/2 without
Great job putting this together. I seen there 2-3 bickering videos. And the podcast.
Forward facing sonar is an evolution of technology in the sport of fishing. It’s no different than the sport of hunting getting clearer more powerful rifle scopes or even rifle scopes that integrate range finding technology. Or how about states that allow Crossbows with rifle scopes during traditional bow hunting season. People complained in my state of Maryland when they changed the hunting laws and allowed Crossbows to be used during bow hunting season. People said it was an unfair advantage, deer were going to be hunted to extinction, blah blah blah. Maryland Department of Natural Resources statistics have since shown over the years there has been no real change in the annual number of deer killed during archery season. Ask Randy when he hunts if he uses a rifle scope or does he hunt with a rifle using open metal sights. Is the advance in scope technology an unfair advantage in hunting or is it an evolution that gets more people interested in hunting? Forward facing sonar is no different - it’s getting more people interested in fishing and will ultimately help grow the sport.
Yes Randy answer that question. Very good point since he hunt.
Your way off with this ridiculous analogy. FFS is not like using a scope lol. It’s like using a satellite with infrared cameras to locate deer beds.. and then following an app on your phone to guide you through the forest to within an inch of your deerlmao. I guess you think that’s a sporting way to hunt?? And it wouldn’t affect the deer population lmao.. You people are ridiculous.. and that’s why your kids won’t have any Bass left to fish for
Winter time here in Southern SC I fish afternoon & evenings also.
Everybody needs to calm down. For most of us it just FISHING.
I think Randy is on to something with the tradition of the sport and thats where the fight should be not on the conservation aspect because the data on FFS harming fish populations is just not there yet
What’s harmful to fish populations is train derailment ( Pennsylvania)or dam removal. Ffs doesn’t kill fish
There are objective truths and there are subjective truths. Objective truths are true regardless of opinion, subjective truth is simply an opinion that happens to be true at that time. For example we live on planet earth, that is an objective truth. I think pepperoni and mushroom pizza is my favorite, that is subjective. Randy came at this subjectively, Ben came it more objectively than Randy. I’m not caught up on all of Ben’s views. However, Randy’s views on this does not hold up to the laws of logic. Most commonly breaking the law of noncontradiction. Which make his arguments illogical.
Thanks for the breakdown of objective vs subjective. Appreciate the comment.
Randy has a "it's my truth" mentality. Poisonous. On top of that, he has been making videos bashing other TH-cam anglers for a while. Thinks he's the arbiter of who should or shouldn't be big in the bass fishing TH-cam space. Typical old dude thwarted by technology and has his panties in a bind because time passed him by. Dang these wipper snappers and their rock n roll music!
@@chilloutdude3617 agreed. It’s all anecdotal with a lot of false equivalences.
I truly believe seriously that half of Randy's followers are not bass fisherman like from the Ozarks and the south. I read some of their comments and they have to be Bank boys....
Randy believes that his perspective on LiveScope is just so sophisticated, the only reason to disagree with it is because "...you just don't get it." Textbook gaslighting.
There are things to be said for both sides. The real issue or concerns is does it hurt the fisheries and does it take away from the " SPORT" of bass fishing.
I do want to say that talking about a 33 year study on fisheries that doesn't show FFS effects anything has no merit. FFS Has only been around for 5years. Not long enough to be relevant for that study.
I'm with Randy. FFS is like spotlighting deer.
hell its baiting them in then you spotlight them.
Ending pause was priceless
Lets getting on!!
I like both Ben and Randy and i agree with both. Not gonna lie im a live scope user myself and its not as simple as drop in fush come to my bait and bite like most people seems to see it. Still takes knowledge on where to go what to use. But it don't really make it easy on my experience. People would say if it doesn't make it easier then why spend money. My reply is do you got a flip phone or smart phone im sure its a smart phone cause we all move with technology.
The guy I feel for the most is the good ole Dukemiester! The Big Bass Podcast rules!
There was no 33 year study on FFS. The stats he was using were stats on crappie. A guy that has an environmental studies degree should know the difference. Also should know that studies take time and need to be numerous before any conclusions can be made.
I liked it when he used the word "trending" when he was talking about 3 data points. I think he should have stayed at University of Nebraska-Lincoln instead of going to a satellite community college in Omaha-he might have learned a little more about real scientific methods, designs and limitation, and a concept called "power of test".
Can someone with the data compare catch rates (weights) in thr pro circuits over the past 5 years and validate whether or not the weights have increased with FFS?
100%
Money Bass!!! Loving the show Bro 🤓 Let's step up our game and take over this you tube!!!! 🤠👍 Loving it Money Bass!!!
Ben clearly showed up with facts and data, not emotion, which is what is driving Randy’s entire claim of ffs destroying bass fishing
He acted like a child the whole time hahahahahahahahahaha
How accurate are those "facts" when ffs hasn't been out for more than 5 years?
@Tukn6s for now they are accurate. Facts are facts.
Lmao what facts? Such a small percentage of anglers have ffs lmao give me a break. No comments about how utterly boring it is to watch a bunch of dudes staring at a screen with the same baits in hand
Exactly - I can take a 500 mile highway trip and my truck says I averaged 21.5 miles to the gallon. If I drive 20 miles to the lake when I get home and don't reset the screen, it says I averaged 20 miles per gallon. Did I really? Of course not. Sample size matters. There is not enough recorded data to support Ben's position. Full disclosure, I am subscribed to Ben's channel.
One awesome rule would be. If you show up with FFS on your boat you can only have single hook lures all day….. Lake Fork was looking like snagging. May or may not have been. But more than one fish was weighed that had hooks on out side of mouth. If BASS doesn’t find a way to make sure there is no snagging state law makers will…..
I don't see how forward facing sonar harms the fsh population unless more people are keeping the fish, or the frequency of the fish being caught is more and puts more stress on them. Also, it is bullshit when Ben says there isn't many more things we can do to make the technology better. There is zero doubt someone will come up with a way to identify the species, eventually having it be able to estimate size as well. For tournament fishing it should be banned, it looks so stupid, fisherman staring at a screen the entire time they retreive a lure. Just play a video game at that point.
The memes... just keep it simple
My opinion; Live scope and all of the electronics that are surely to be developed in the near future that pertain to fishing, are going to do to the fishing industry what the internet has done to society in general. The internet, the worlds source of knowledge, has destroyed the moral fiber of the world. These new electronics are doing the same thing, in their own way, to the fishing industry. There has always been the debate on sight fishing for bedding bass. Life scope and these megaphones with the glass lenses that you can put in the water and watch the fish swim around like you were scuba diving, has allowed anglers to bed fish, so to speak, in 20 feet of water. I find that to be morally wrong. To me, it's no different than spotlighting deer or hunting for hogs and coyotes with night vision scopes. I agree with Randy 100%. Allow the anglers to use them in practice, but take the units off the boat during the tournament. Isn't 360 surround enough of an advantage?
I call you said b.s internet is not bad it's what people do with it.
The more technology is added the more it will be abused.
Milliken so called data proves one thing that lakes are on a decline. He stated we seen the lowest fisj catch rates in 20, 21 if that's the case then it simply proves lakes are on a decline
Average individual salary in 1982 was $11k and I found an article where Elias remembers seeing a brand new "tricked out" Ranger for $20k. Average income now is $60k and it's about $120k for a fully maxed out to the teeth bass boat. Nothing has changed, people laughed at you then if you were a broke kid and told them you want to be a pro. It was possibly even harder back then. I like Ben and I like Randy. They both represent one thing, changing times. If Ben is still around in 30-40 years I bet he'll be bitching about $3.2 million bass boats and the automatic lake strainer that kids are using to grab the fish straight out the lake.
I hear what you are saying but the automatic lake already exists. It is called a net. Lol
Remember that Randy wanted to be your doctor in 2020 and we know how that turned out. Milliken catches a lot of big fish,Randy talks a lot some of his info is pretty good. Times change ppl change and tactics change. If Randy doesn’t want to use ffs out tradition from his stand point he will catch fish,will he ever be competitive probably not
If you want tournament fishing to be purely a man, with a fishing rod, catching more fish, than the other men with fishing rods. Eliminate all forms of GPS, sonar, depth finders, and any form of technology from being used on the boats. Guve everyone a paper topographical map just before blast off, no prefishing allowed, and make that be thr end of it. But if that is not what youre are in full support of, then stop crying about the advancement in technology. Period. End of story. Bite your tongue all the way off. Either be against the advancement of technology, or be in support of it, and learning not just how to use it, but also, helping learn how to continue to advance it. There is no fence to ride on this subject. Sidescan/downscan sonar amd mapping technology are more effective tools than forward facing sonar, and no one cared to say that they are cheating, or ruining anything when they hit the market. They were welcomed with open arms, and the people who didn't understand how to best use them, put in the time to figure that out. Many of those same people are now crying because they don't want to put in the work to learn the new technology, and gain the perceived advantage it's giving everyone else. When the entire time, they loved the benefits of having the best mapping and sonar technology available and the advantage it provided them, over the competitors who didnt have as great of an understanding of it, as they did. Either no tech should be allowed on the boat, or you should stop complaining and get back to work.
You hit the nail on the on head. I remember just having a map (not always a hydro map) and used a compass and triangulation to find spots where I had caught fish and wished to return to those spots. My depth finder was my fishing pole or my anchor. I do not wish to go back to those days. I love my side image, down image, forward image, 360 image, and gps along with trolling motor anchor lock and power poles. Thank you Jesus for giving this 72 year old man these technological advances. Anyone who does not like this can always go get a horse, cut a willow, dig up some grubs, and sit in a row boat all day for all I care. Just quit trying to tell other people how to live or fish.
The mystery of fishing is the most important and fun part about the sport! The only good thing about sonar is navigation on a lake!
Real anglers do not need fishfinders to catch fish!
The whole point of forward facing sonar is to help anglers catch more fish . So was side and down imaging along with plain old sonar . If you are concerned about fish population, cancel gps and eliminate everything but sonar . GPS probably advanced offshore fishing more then scoping. Before gps , 90% of fishermen just fished the bank.
Randy was in a debate. Ben was in an argument. Agree or disagree with FFS, this showed a huge difference in the character of each individual.
Why was the other 3 guys just sitting and not saying anything?
The video I made was a highlight video. There are actually a lot of highlights in the full interview. I only showed parts where Milliken or Randy was talking. There is a link at the end of the video and in the description to the full debate.
It was almost 2 hours live.
😂 Ben likes catching bass in a barrel with electronics that finds fish for him. Fishing without electronics takes critical thinking to locate them and the appropriate approach to get them to hit a lure. It takes applied knowledge of nature and fish behavior.
I call bullshit on that. Go look at Ben's videos from this past year in the opens. He uses his FFS, but that's not how he catches all his fish. When looking at the screen you can't tell what the fish is.. all it does is tell you there are fish in the area.
I think you need to go back and look at Ben's earlier videos when he was fishing alot of local derbies before FFS. He has put his time in and is a very good fisherman with or without FFS.
emphasis on very good but not pro caliber without FFS. @@timmaloney5495
I like both guys, but the technology is getting ridiculous.
Team Mil
Using FFS is not a guarantee to catch everything you see! I've used it plenty alot of fish so not bite. But on other hand it does help you catch more fish than if you didn't have it. It's caused me to see fish, then fish for them & catch them I otherwise would not have seen or known about. Making adjustments to get them to bite I wouldn't have to to make. So it definitely does help you catch more fish! Which is why almost all tournaments are dominated with it! Better you can interpret what you see & fish reactions more fish you can catch.
Well put. I learn so much about the way fish react to weather, water temp, moon phase, and seasons that I never knew before, thanks to livescope. It is a great tool to teach you about fish behavior, but it does NOT make them bite.
You mentioned moon phases. I'm on the fence about how/ if moon phases make fresh water fishing better or not? I know moon directly effects tides so it has to make a difference for salt water. I know fish spawn around the moon. But I don't know if it makes them bite more/better fishing? I've really paid close attention to them past year. The bass master fishing calendar is based around it. I have done well on days that should be good. I've done good on days that were supposed to suck too. It's been very inconsistent for me? Actually most of my biggest largmouth have been caught on days that should have Not been good!?. My 5 biggest so far this year is 7.4 - 8.05 - 8.6 - 9.3 & my current PB an 11.4 I've had an incredible year caught multiple 6 & 7's & lost count of all the 4-5 pounders
@@maxcole3930 I’m in south Louisiana and will tell you for sure you’re wasting your time crappie fishing in the morning under a full moon. Last year about this time there was also a significant increase in bites an hour and a half before dark until sunset. I own my own HVAC business and have slow days in the winter where I can go fish. If it’s a full moon I’ll do stuff around the house until noon, and not waste my time on a fruitless morning trip. On top of a thousand crappie, no bites until 3:30- when they ALL turn on
If anyone thinks that the current forward facing sonar is the end of it, you better think again. The only question is "what's next"? Technology will continue its rapid advance whether you like it or not. Hell, I've already predicted that there will be a "drone-finder" linked to your boat that directs your boat to fish. It will identify size, species, etc. Doesn't that sound great, boats with buzzing drones chasing them around all over the lake. Anyway guys, there is no solution nor answer to this matter. It is what it is. Adapt or be done.
I’m sorry but livescope was the best thing I bought 😂
I love a live scope and I think it’s fun. I wish I had one. but I don’t think it has a place in pro bass fishing. Just like an aluminum ball bat don’t belong in pro baseball, how hitting to hard in football, a pitch clock, restrictor plates in nascar.
How FFS affects our fisheries is a problem that will fix its self in time. If it really does have a negative effect . State regulation’s will eventually take it into account.
Right. They will implement "bass seasons" like some northern states and some river systems. That will affect all anglers irrespective of if they have livescope or not. Then everyone will suffer.
@@cuivre2004 I don’t think that will happen . But who knows. I think there are other alternatives. The northern states are ran by liberals that love government regulation.
I'm in my 60's... I've seen and heard other aging fisherman stuck in their ways. Any new technique, any new electronics is bad. It's sad to see these people stuck in the past. I've decided there is no help for them. They will continue to keep their heads buried in hydrilla. I've commented to Randy to organize or get the word out for tournaments that will ban forward facing sonar. These will be separate from 'normal' tournaments. See if it works.. Umbrella rigs are banned, cast nets, etc... MLF tournaments are the best. Catch, measure, photo, release immediately. No female bass full of roe should be released at the ramp weigh-in. Innovations, inventions, are a good thing. Nothing really surprises me. (I don't have foward sonar) Let's all go back to spear fishing. 😅
If you are killing the fish , then it might make a difference , but bass guys are typically catch and release .
😮 Let's all just put Big Aqua Veiw cameras on our trolling motors < And a 16" Screens < And dump FF sonar < Ta Da
Where is the actual video - want to see it objectively without your commentary. As fellow Air Force veteran - thanks for your service.
Thanks for your service as well. This is just a highlights video. Links are in the description. Milliken will be on my livestream tomorrow 8pm EST. There will be a viewer question/answer segment also.
Bass after dark
I would like to see no fish finders or sonar tournaments 🤔
This is the same Randy that calls braid to fluoro/mono leader a fad and will go away. The same braid that's been around for 30 years now. 😂
Dude's living in Yesterdayland.
Fluoro and braid are both overrated.
Keep up the GREAT REVIEWS... 👍🏻
It was hammer time. Great podcast, and this was a great teaser review. I like Randy, but if you have followed him since the beginning, he has gained traction in the fishing community being a "Negative Nancy." He does have some good content, but don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Remember, he dogged the Googan Squad & Social Media. Now he is doing the same thing... 🤔
Luke Duncan pointed this out on Low Budget LIVE, too! LD can be a "Negative Nancy," too, but he has some good podcasts.
Mercer is my favorite, and his numbers reflect why... 🍺🎣
I just think Randy is salty because he fell behind and has not been competitive with the so called "elite" anglers and need something to blame. I personally think he's a 🤡
Money, good video.
Thanks!
I was not waiting for this video. I don’t care what two pro fisherman think of each others’ opinions. This is crazy, let’s all just get back to fishing.
Catch Fish, not feelings
Wow. All the cut scenes really make this painful to watch.
Forward facing sonar/live scope is just another tool, much like the umbrella rig which is banned. And just like the umbrella rig, the only people who want Forward facing sonar/live scope banned are the ones who don't want to put the time in to LEARN it.
Randy won that debate!
i love how his sources were his youtube comments 😂 ben’s source was true statistics and data no opinion 😂
So when sales drop on FFS, can we expect Live Scope scrambling boxes and Electric Prod Scope next from the electronic companies? Will the "advanced" modern pro angler accept this technology as well?
When does this end?
If you call yourself a pro, prove it. Go out there with a flasher, a temp gauge and a topo map. We all want to see your intuition, skills, your gut instinct, your mastery of your craft from countless hours on the water. Instead we get your head down for 8 hrs staring at a screen with a tungsten prototype ripbait nobody else has access to tied on the end of your rod.
Problem is you have put more stock into your “intuition” mantua exists. That’s all in your head. You’re just getting lucky. Real fishing is making a fish bite, not hoping to get bit and telling yourself a story that makes you feel like a “skilled” angler.
if live scope made it that easy to catch big fish and 50 guys in the tournament had it and 50 didnt have it wouldnt it be a 50 way tie for first place.
I'd like to see a tourney trail that banned FFS so I could watch pro anglers using instincts to catch bass. Let the other leagues have there big screens. Ofcourse that won't happen because money is what it's all about. FFS is making the sport boring in some ways and a lot of guys who caught their first bass on a hula popper in a pond at the age of 7, and fell in love with the mystery of "where did that come from".....would like to see it gone
It that would be the case no electronic period on a boat. Just start key and motor. Let's see a real tournament like that.
@@jones1394some electronics would be fine and actually add to the safety of boaters.
How about this - let your talent show with the rod and reel - not a piece of technology that actually shows you the fish in real time and how the fish are reacting to your baits???? I'm not the biggest fan of Randy's but I'm on his side with this one.
If ffs is so effective, so dominating, why doesn't randy use it HIMSELF in a couple of tournaments to show us ?
Randy is correct forward facing sonar has no place in professional fishing....and the a rig is the same doesnt belong in tournaments....forward facing sonar takes all the skill out of fishing anyone can ride around and find fish with it
You can also ride around and find fish with sidescan, 360, traditional and downscan.
Let’s ban those also.
@@lljustice3877 sounds good to me
@@mikel.4885
Let your boy Randy know.
@lljustice3877 so your cool with just riding around and letting electronics find people fish unstead of using skill to find them....watching b.a.s.s. is real fun with the new wanna be pros watching a tv screen all day
@@mikel.4885
I never watch Bass tournaments on tv anyway. It’s like watching golf to me even before FFS came along.
Maybe I’m old school because I only read Bassmaster magazines and watched Bill Dance, Hank Parker, Roland Martin and Jimmy Houston growing up.
But you said it yourself, if FFS is finding the fish and needs to be banned then why stop there? Mega360, Sidescan, Downscan and Traditional also find fish. So if it’s all about “skill” then get rid of them all in tournaments. Randy wants to cherry pick based on nothing but his opinion and feelings. He has no problem stating that it’s ruining the Bass fisheries but has never ever provided one iota of factual research papers or data from the people who are actually tasked with keeping our fisheries healthy and sustainable.
You both are welcome to your opinions but as far as I’m concerned it stops there.
I’ve fished with FFS for about 2 years now. My experience is you still need the skill to know where fish will be on any given lake which is still dependent on weather, time of year etc. Even then you only see a small image because the sonar itself is like a small cone where 60 feet away the widest part of the cone is only giving you maybe 15 feet of image. What’s that doing for you on a 5,000 or 10,000 acre lake?
Even then 95% of the fish I see that I interpret to be Bass will not bite a lure that I present.
Randy never got me to watch with a click bait title
Ben has a bachelor degree from South western Nebraska community college
Tell randy go back to spears and arrows to catch his fish. Because all he has been using is bass fishing technologies to help advance his fishing career. Didn't he use sonar before. It costed alot when it first came out. A boat. He just sounds like the old dude yelling from his porch. It's called progress.
Forward facing sonar is the same as the illegal bat in pro baseball. It's not good for the bass fishing pro side of things. Keep it in the sport and watch the decline as it takes its place in the mix. Oh yeah, watch the decline in the bass population, also.
Thanks for watching and supporting the channel. I've heard someone mention the bat analogy before but they didn't explain it. Do you mind clarifying how they are the same?
They are not the same, only similar in the impact on the bass fishing world and at what cost. One danger is, it's a lot different, for me, than buying a Whopper Plopper or a Megabass jerkbait after seeing a pro do good using either. The pro-bass world will be addressing this over time or suffer due to the drop in every other aspect of marketing to the bass fishing population.
It's been the same old song and dance when new technology or a new hot bait has hit the stage..... from flasher graphs to screen image to GPS, to side scan and now to ffs.... most don't realize you can take 2d sonar turn it forward, figure out your angles and have ffs in 2d... yes images, ect are better on the new stuff but 10 15 years ago.... innovative thinking helped me out in certain situations on the water.