Billy Wagner Belongs in the Hall of Fame
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
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In his 9th year on the ballot, Billy Wagner is long overdue for the Hall of Fame. A seven-time All-Star, member of the 400-save club, and arguably the most efficient strikeout pitcher in the history of the sport, it's time for the third-best closer in MLB history to take his rightful spot in Cooperstown.
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#mlb #mets #astros
Wagner should’ve been in a long time ago. It’s a shame it’s taken him until year 9, and he’s still not in.
Crazy part is that idk how he isn't in, Mariana Rivera was the first unanimous induction in MLB hall of fame history so closers aren't stigmatized that much
@@RealCGHbecause Rivera has rings and was in the national spotlight
Tbh silly Billy Wagner should be in the hall. But I don’t think that silly Billy Wagner will ever get in
How can a closer be great if it doesnt reflect into a ring
@@og5466Bad take alert
One thing that stands out to me is how highly Joe Nathan ranks in many of these stats.
Nathan had a great career but was not good in the playoffs.
Say what you want about him being in Cooperstown, but I at least would argue that he should’ve gotten 5% of the vote.
Absolute travesty that he didn’t even get the 5% vote to have a second year on the ballot. I may be biased as a Twins fan, but he absolutely belongs in the Hall as one of the best closers of all time
@@timberwolvesguy6392 I’m from Texas and lived in Minnesota, so two of my top three favorite teams are the Rangers and Twins, so I’m definitely biased towards Joe Nathan, but him getting so little consideration from the Hall of Fame, despite how great many of his stats are, is a travesty, like you said.
@@timberwolvesguy6392The thing about Joe Nathan and relievers like him is that the standards of sabermetric stats like win probability added and ERA+ for relievers at their peak are not well understood by most voters.
Most of them seem to just go off of total saves, and possibly the peak years of that stat.
In Joe Nathan’s case specifically, voters would’ve seen a pitcher who didn’t get to 400 saves (though he does rank 10th I think), and was not good in the playoffs, so I’m not surprised he was ignored.
In my opinion, looking only at saves is flawed because while at the end of the day, a pitcher needs to finish the game with the lead to get the save, a pitcher could theoretically pitch his way into trouble, and give up a run or two, and get a save that counts the same as a pitcher who got three outs without allowing a baserunner.
In my opinion, there should be a stat for what I call “quality relief appearances”, which I define as the following:
1. The pitcher has to have faced three batters after entering the game in relief.
2. The pitcher cannot allow any runs, earned or unearned.
And 3. The pitcher cannot allow more than one baserunner.
The raw total of this could allow us to account for all appearances of three batters or more regardless of whether it’s a save situation or not (I would suggest a split for save situations and non save situations).
Joe Nathan for the record, has 712 appearances of three or more batters faced in his career, and by my definition, 463 were quality relief appearances, or 65%.
That percentage is matched only by Kenley Jansen among pitchers who have as many appearances of three batters or more in relief, though several have more volume, and percentages of this stat are increasing from generation to generation as multi inning relief appearances become less common.
Out of curiosity, what do you think of that potential stat? I think there should be a relief equivalent of quality starts personally, and that’s what I’d suggest.
I love learning about some of these older great players that are hiding in plain sight. Thank you for the video, Billy Wagner earned a new fan.
I'm 25 and you saying its an older player makes me think how long I've been a fan of the sport now when I watched him on live TV haha
Wagner yes- also- Joe Nathan. That guy’s numbers are INSANE. And yes, Chapman, Kimbrel and Jansen down the road. Also, just puttin this out there- Papelbon’s numbers are incredible.
Papelbon's playoff stats are far greater than Wagner's and his regular season numbers are very close. But Pap and Chapman are both so unlikeable it's tough to see either get a fair amount of HOF votes.
@@brientaylorcohenShould Papelbon or Joe Nathan have gotten 5% of the vote in your opinion?
@@fortynights1513 if you’re asking me who I think is better, I’m gonna say Nathan by a hair. But both guys have insane 7yearWAR stat averages. Among the best in the history of baseball for relievers for both guys.
@@PitBullSamiTutHere’s the thing:
Nathan has an ERA+ on baseball reference of 151 vs 177 for Papelbon, but Nathan also pitched roughly 200 more innings.
Papelbon however had an ERA of 1.00 in 27 playoff innings and Nathan’s playoff ERA is 8.10 in 10 playoff innings.
Both players are among the best ERA’s for their respective career volumes, but Papelbon had a better playoff career.
I could see the argument for either one being better than the other, but either way both guys arguably played well enough to deserve to break 5% of the vote, and neither one did.
If they came up last year, they may have had more of a shot.
@@fortynights1513 for sure Nathan gave up the huge dinger to Arod in the playoffs and definitely wasn’t a good playoff pitcher. But sheesh, we’re splitting hairs here. They’re both great and both HOF-worthy. Papelbon is highly underrated and when you put those 2 guys numbers up against the greatest relievers of all time, they’re both right there.
Him throwing 100 mph was always a big thrill when I was a kid watching him on the Astros 😊
Seriously. Wasn't nearly as common back then to see 100mph on the gun. These days there's a ton of guys throwing gas.
Please make a video on Derrek Lee. He was my favorite player in MLB Power Pros 2007 and I would love to see him get the respect he deserves. (Everyone like this video so Jolly can see this.)
Billy Wagner's candidacy will play a pivotal role for the next generation of closers, like K-Rod, Kimbrel, and Chapman. Hopefully we see him go in so the next closers will get looked at seriously.
K Rod should be in no questions
Red Sox legend Billy Wagner WILL be a of Famer in 2024 (along with Helton and Beltre).
Braves fan here. Even if he hadn't played for us towards the end I would still say he belongs in the hall and it's wrong he's not there already. And he was better than Hoffman. Hoffman was an accumulator for the most part, Billy was dominant
Jolly you are an absolute gift to baseball fans - amazing work as always
2:47 RIP Jose Lima
Say title of vid and went "duh". But forgot people don't realize how incredibly talented this man was
I would love to see a video on the early 2010s Cincinnati reds. The best reds teams I’ve ever watched and they still couldn’t quite get it done, to the point of being no-hit in the playoffs. A recap of those years would be an interesting watch for me
4:40 my favorite part
No. I like Wagner but there has to be a threshold for greatness and Wagner was just really good. He never led the league in a single meaningful statistical category, and his playoff numbers are embarrassing. I can't think of one meaningful game he closed out. The same goes for Joe Nathan: pitched 10 career postseason innings and gave up 25 baserunners. Nobody cared about his 40 saves when that was going on.
Mr. Wagner has Nolan Ryan's stamp of approval. Enough said.
🤩
I agree that he belongs. He was iconic and a legend during his career. Little guy who was naturally right handed and threw 100mph southpaw. Billy the kid.
Put him in.
Informative video. I actually thought Billy Wagner was in the hall. I'm shocked and in disbelief. He was a very good pitcher. My only question, did his poor playoff performances cause the eliminaton of his teams from contention, or did he just get blown up in games that were already lost?
yes. John Franco too.
I agree.
Both him and K-Rod deserve to be in the hall
Rob was my favorite Br pitcher lol
Wagner has a lower career WHIP than the six relievers in the HOF, slightly lower than even Mo’s, that’s wild.
I have no clue how this man did not snap his elbow with every pitch. Put him in the hall just for that.
the problem with the MLB hall of fame is the idea that there's a benefit to keeping people out. noone would complain if the top 3 percent of MLB players were inducted rather than the struggle to keep it as the top 1 percent.
My high school coach coached this guy at Ferrum
73.8% is so darn close. He'll be in next year.
Some of the numbers he put up were insane, both Wagner and K-rod should be in
Ur a mets fan so I don’t expect u to but u should make a vid of why Utley should be a hall of famer
While we're talking about mets closers, what're the chances of a video on John Franco?
It’s a decimal point so in ERA that would be a Point. 2 point 00 era for example. Dot would be used in something like an IP address
He just says it that way it’s not that deep
@@RupertMumphrey it’s annoying and others have brought it up as well
I totally forgot that Billy Wagner played for the Red Sox
Both of the top 2 guys on the HoF ballot should’ve been in a long time ago. Wagner was lethal, and Helton was the only player to bat .500 in a single month
Hopefully the voters show some sense this year an finally vote him in.
Hated seeing this guy come out of the pen against the Cubs back whenthe Astros were stillan NL team. Though as much as I disliked it, I loved watching him pitch.
The best lefty reliever ever.
Can you please make a Julio Rodriguez video
Couldn’t pitch in October…
So does KRod
Billy Wagner, Todd helton, Jim Edmonds, Carlos Delgado, steroids shouldn't matter because David Ortiz got in, so curt schilling, Roger Clemens, Sammy Sosa, Manny Ramirez, Alex Rodriguez, Gary Sheffield, mark McGwire. And if I'm missing anybody off the top of my head, but all those should be hall of famers.
The david ortiz statement is pretty bad. Unless it was recently leaked we don’t even know what he tested positive for and he wasn’t included in the mitchell report or balco.
Wag’s should’ve been in ages ago. But I think this is the year for Wags.
there's a 400 save club?
Todd Helton video please!!!
jolly olive should have a HOF vote
Less then 2% short damn
john franco and k-rod should also probably be in
Wagner deserves in, but k rod was better. K rod imo was 3rd greatest closer wagner 4th.
K rod shouldve closed for longer. Did he have a ped or crime scandal?
@@antonioreconquistadorno, he burned out. Age got to him
Respectfully, how? Wagner beats KRod in just about every category, both rate stats and career stats, only trailing in career saves and IP. KRods a legend but is a solid #4
@@marcusy.6372 I think a LOT changed around what's demanded from pitchers in the course of roughly a decade between Wagner's retirement and K rod's. Right around the late 2000s to early 2010s, there was a push on closers pitching faster and faster and faster without any regard to their long-term durability. I think K rod suffered victim to this phenomena and the tail end of his career fizzled out, whereas wagner's prime was half a decade before the demands started getting crazy. Wagner didn't have to compare himself to quite as many pitchers as K-rod did later on in his career.
And I just checked on b-ref, and k rod pitched in over 100 more games than wagner too, which really says how hard he fought to prolong his career (which probably hurt some of his career ERA, whip, etc.) in lieu of all the Aroldis Chapmans throwing 100+ MPH every single pitch.
It's really hard to compare players who are even just a decade apart because in the ridiculous changes in pitching standards, but that's my take. Same reason why I think these pitchers getting 180-200 career wins are more impressive than players 30 years ago who got 250 career wins.
Chapman is third best. Need a video on him
Besides Wagner, will we ever see relief pitchers get into the Hall again? Especially with the current trend of pitcher use?
Kimbrel
How about Jansen?
Billy Wagner was a gunslinger who projected death out to a 60'6" radius, and that is all anyone needs to know.
lol wtf I hope you were high when you wrote that
@@juliebraden6911 Drunk. It's true though. Wagner would eat you up with that fastball, and he didn't mess around.
So should Jansen and Kimbrel be in too? Think about it, since Kimbrel left Atlanta he has been nothing but a nuisance for teams. As a Red Sox fan, I never trusted him, and my friend who’s a Phillies fan feels the same way.
Red Sox fan myself. Was glad af to see him get overpaid elsewhere. He got bailed out so many times in the 2018 playoffs. Unfortunately, the team did nothing to replace him for multiple yrs afterwards.
@@SmoothCriminal12 Koji was the only closet we’ve had that I felt completely comfortable with in the 9th
Ok, now do Curt Schilling
I hate how annoying these old voters are about the HoF. For Christ sake the NBA allows more dudes in every year and have like half the players in the league each year. Guys like Wagner jones Helton are obvious hall of famers and yet aren’t in yet
Well one thing we know is Billy won't be wearing a Mets Cap when he's inducted But as a Mets fan it would be a Honor to see him in it !!
It's not his choice
The Playoff failures hurts him a bit and bouncing around bunch of teams doesn't help either
I say he belongs at the end of the day.
If you throw a good playoff career on top of his regular season stats, then he probably gets in sooner.
Jolly banger #2
Example #1,043,564 of the MLB and the HOF committee being an absolute joke:
He likely would have gotten in years ago if his postseason haven't been dumpster fire much of the time he played there.
If you have to think about it or convince people, he does not belong in HOF
Do you think Torii Hunter is a hall of famer?
I would say no.
Credit him for getting 5% of the vote though.
Closers are overrated. A decent 3rd starter has more value.
I didnt know he trained himself to throw left handed until I read recently
Wagner is also not even left handed despite throwing lefty.
Duh! (to most of us)
One knock on Wagner is he blew a lot of saves in big games.
If he buys a ticket, sure. Closers don’t belong in the hall.
Why?
@@RupertMumphreybecause they appear in less than one percent of games [innings wise]
How long does he have to be screwed over before the BBWOA realize how horrible they've been to him? My guess is they just don't care.
Disagree. "Closer" is a made-up position and managers are incentivized into bad decisions to not play their best pitchers when it matters most (like if the 2-3-4 guys are coming up in the 8th). Billy Beane made a mockery of this by just plugging in "some guy," racking up 35 meaningless Saves and flipping him for good players.
Bruce Sutter is the most shameful HoF member, more than any of the Deadball guys who got in because their buddy was on the veteran's committee, because he wasn't even that good of a closer, just the first guy to retire with 300 career saves.
He should of made it before this, Wagner deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.
Should *have
No he doesn’t nerd
If Mariano ' one inning ' Rivera is in the hof , then i guess Wagner , who is just as good of a one inning pitcher , should also be in .
How about we put some real relievers who would pitch 3 innings to close out games .
Roy Face , Firpo Marberry and great submarine pitcher Ted Abernathy for the hof .
Abernathy looked un - hittable .
Mike Timlin is just as good as Mo Rivera .
Any pitcher should be able to get 3 measly outs .
Gossage is the best all time relief pitcher .
He doesn't blow game 7 vs the D Backs and game 4 vs the Red Sox like the way overrated Mariano ' one inning ' Rivera did .
This has to be rage bait
I would give my vote to Rollins or Rodriguez (alex) or hunter first. Relievers aren’t hall worthy in my opinion but I see why they get votes
Wait, Dennis Eckersly isnt in the Hall either? Thats shameful.
Edit: oh wait, he was a starter in his early career. So he is.
Yeah. Eckersley is usually left off a lot of relief pitcher lists because he had significant time as both a starter and reliever. At least he’s in the Hall regardless.
Billy should be in that 99 year was wild
Closers that always come to mind.
You guessed it.
Mariano, hoffman and wagner
Stros fan here who grew up rooting for Billy in the 90s. Loved watching Billy throw 100mph fastballs past hitters back when that was still awe inspiring
As a lifetime ASTROS, Colt .45's fan I had the distinct pleasure of watching this incredible man save games and blow away rival batters with seeming ease. All of his numbers are better than many in the Hall. The Hall of Fame has become a Hall of Very Good recently. The facts and stats of so many in recent years don't stack up to greatness.
yes he belongs in the hall. for one thing, he's conclusively the best lefty closer of all time. shouldnt that be enough, to be the very best at something. could we imagine having a hall without the best switch-hitter, the best defensive player, the best lefty starter, the best right-handed hitter? if one constructed a dream-team 25 man alltime roster, billy wagner would obviously be selected on the basis of being the best lefty reliever. but we cant construct a 25 man dream team from the 250 people in the hall.
Wagner has been circled on my mock HoF ballot for years. He was a damn good Brave!
Wagner was the first Aroldis Chapman and is draft him on my fantasy team every year. Wagner was money and he threw gas.
As a Dads fan I request a formal apology for showing me a picture of brewers Hoffman
i would like to hear the voters who dont vote for him..i wanna hear their reasons..and i REALLY hope it's not bcus of his amount of saves, BUT wouldnt be surprised bcus there's still some dinosaurs who vote for the HOF
For over a 10 year period closer to 15 he was top 10 closer alltime yup he should be in it... throwing 100 before science made it easier he just did it.
He was nails ask any player from 95 to 2008 it was him an mo for most part nobody wanted to see
Extremely based, Wagner is the best lefty closer ever, was truly fun to watch. Shame hes not in the HOF already. Excellent video, Jolly
Haven't heard anybody use the term based in a really long time wow
Damn right. My favorite pitcher of all time. As a short kid from Houston, who’s only athletic skill was throwing things really hard, Billy Wagner was my hero (alongside Craig Biggio, but I couldn’t hit to save my life).
He deserves to be in, and I think this could be his year. Greatest lefty RP of all time.
Jay Jaffe has a fantastic article
I loved billy on the Phils. Killed me when he signed with the mets
Part of me thinks if Mets made the WS in 2006 and didn't have the collapses of 07, 08 he probably would be in.
As a Biased Mets fan, it just felt more lively hearing Enter Sandman for Wagner considering Mo Rivera hated the song and that genre of music in general.
He mentions Jansen and Kimbrel at the end...but I really don't think Jansen is nearly as good as Wagner. You can argue Kimbrel is deserve of serious consideration for HOF, but I'm not convinced you can say that about Jansen (he's more of a Hall of Very Good).
5:58 hi random Chris Martin cameo wtf. Never did I think I would see Chris Martin on a list with Mo Rivera and Billy Wagner
Amen Wagner belongs in the hall along with Joe Jackson Dick Allen Lou Whitaker and Dale Murphy
I think the best way to explain why his small sample size of playoff numbers are so bad is largely he was on teams where he had to put in the work to get them over the hump to get in meaning by the time he got to the playoffs he was worn out. Now he should have been in the Hall ages ago but hopefully he gets those 5 votes he missed in year 9 for his final time. Also another intresting point is when he retired he still had more seasons in the tank but he wanted to go out on his terms
Just bought myself a Red Sox billy Wagner jersey
I think that silly Billy Wagner is a HOFer . It always looked painful the way he threw
Obligatory Bartolo video comin soon
Wagner begets Britton. Good video, thanks.
Kenny Lofton and Jimmy Rollins >>>
is that the same chris rose from battlebots.?
So Does John Franco…?
Fax, no lies told
27 war
I call Billy Wagner the Lefty Mo for a reason
Minus the postseason success.