Air Source Heat Pump Owner's Experience 5 Years On
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 พ.ย. 2023
- 👇 NEXT EPISODE 👇
• Heat Geek Gives His Ve...
Newsletter ▶ skill-builder.uk/signup ◀
Roger interviews an air source heat pump owner who has been heating his house with the system for 5 years.
John's LG Therma V Monobloc Air Source Heat Pump
www.lg.com/uk/air-to-water-he...
_________________________________
Air Source Heat Pump Pros and Cons
Air source heat pumps (ASHPs) have garnered significant attention as an eco-friendly alternative for heating and cooling homes. They extract heat from the outside air, even in cold weather, to heat homes and provide hot water. This technology offers several advantages but also comes with some drawbacks.
PROS
1. Energy Efficiency: ASHPs are highly efficient, often delivering three to four times more energy than they consume. This is because they move heat rather than generate it, making them more efficient than traditional heating systems like boilers and electric heaters.
2. Reduced Carbon Footprint: By using electricity, often from renewable sources, ASHPs lower the carbon emissions associated with home heating. This is crucial in the context of climate change and the global push for greener energy solutions.
3. Lower Heating Costs: Over time, the efficiency of ASHPs can translate into lower heating bills, especially when replacing conventional electric, oil, or coal heating systems.
4. Cooling Function: In addition to heating, ASHPs can cool homes during warmer months, working like an air conditioner but often more efficiently.
5. Government Incentives: Many regions offer incentives, such as tax credits or rebates, for installing energy-efficient ASHPs, further offsetting the initial investment.
CONS
1. High Initial Cost: Installing an ASHP system can be costly, especially when retrofitting older homes. This includes the cost of the unit and any necessary modifications to the home's existing heating system.
2. Performance in Extreme Cold: While ASHPs can operate in cold weather, their efficiency drops as the temperature falls. In freezing climates, supplementary heating might be necessary, reducing the overall benefit.
3. Noise Level: Some ASHP units can be noisy, which might be a concern in densely populated areas or for homes where outdoor units are near living spaces.
4. Aesthetic Impact: The external unit of an ASHP can be large and may not blend well with the building's exterior aesthetics.
5. Requires Electricity: While more efficient, ASHPs still rely on electricity, which can be a downside in areas with high electricity prices or frequent power outages.
While air source heat pumps offer an efficient and environmentally friendly option for home heating and cooling, they also require a significant initial investment. They may not be ideal in all climates or settings. The decision to install an ASHP should be based on individual circumstances, including local climate, the current heating system, and financial considerations.
==========================================
#heatpump #homeimprovement #heating
🔗 Skill Builder Link Tree: linktr.ee/skillbuilder
📪 Newsletter: skill-builder.uk/signup
/ skillbuilder
/ skillbuilderchannel
/ skill_builder
/ skillbuilderuk
🛒 As an Amazon Associate, we earn from qualifying purchases
🎬 All videos: th-cam.com/users/skillbuilderc...
💧 We Support Charity Water: www.charitywater.org
◾ Out of respect to our channel sponsors and the wide variety of people who watch our videos, we'll remove comments that do not follow expected standards of politeness and decency.
See our follow-up video with Adam from Heat Geek: th-cam.com/video/1rKNT7-42J0/w-d-xo.htmlsi=lLdm5_o4P8s3jBoJ
We lived in a flat with wonderful heating. We ran the gas an hour a day and we had hot water and plenty of warmth. Then at Christmas the old couple in the flat below turned off their radiators and went away. We nearly froze and had the gas on continuously until they came back.
🤣
I bought an 11th floor apartment in Toronto in 1996 and I'd always lived in a house at ground level before. It was quite ethnic there but I'm not saying there's any cause-effect at all. To get a good night's sleep I moved my bed against the outer wall of the solarium (balconies they fully enclosed years later as an upscale building change) and opened the small window directly above my pillow (I could stick my hand out the window lying in bed). I slept like that, on the high-rise balcony, through winter which averages about -2 degrees and the coldest nights are about -28 degrees. Lovely nights' sleeps away from the 987 gigawatts of gas central heating coming up from the 10 floors under me.
You are lucky having such public spirited neighbours
OOOOpppps🤣🤣
You should warn the old couple of the dangers of burst pipes from no heating, the next time they plan to go away lol. In fact they should turn it up a notch just in case.
This guy has basically proven that you don't put in a heat pump. You put in a heat pump system. Weather comp, proper heat loss survey, heat pump specced for proper output based on radiators and weather comp curve, hot water considerations, the lot.
It's a rare house that's going to just be a simple swap, for all the reasons cited including the "swingy" British weather
A more educated consumer could have avoided 99% of this. I’m in the same climate. Very happy with my purchase. Only downside is the house temperature isn’t as stable as it used to be. It’s an old leaky house so the cold leaks in. All the while the pump is trying its hardest not to “overwork “ or use the backup resistance heat. Therefore the actual indoor temperature lags a degree. Small price to pay but I’m confident this would barely be noticeable in a new build.
To be clear, in no way was I attempting to blame this on the homeowner. I don't think anyone else should either. He went early-ish on and fell afoul of things he was necessarily trusting others to have expertise in, like we all have to do.
The lesson here is just make sure you are getting a variety of quotes and do enough research to be able to know what questions to ask, because it's complex, but that doesn't have to mean it's not right for you.
This video is a valuable thing to have out there for that purpose.
The thing we need is a proper accreditation scheme for this. Until there is one, get a heat geek trained fitter because they are taught all this detail, seem very well respected and my experience with one for my heat loss survey and quote was excellent. I'm sure other companies are good, but heat geek are really trying hard for the training angle to be the best they can possibly make it.
I had two gas boiler installations in the last three years, done by two different professionals (registered with professional bodies). Both badly installed that led to problems not discovered until later. It doesn't matter what the technology. If professional incompetents are doing the install then problems will occur. One problem is that there is so much incompetence in the UK that the more new or complex the technology, the less likely the trades will know how to fit them properly and with those arrogant or careless enough to think they don't have to keep learning, or read instructions, then problems result. I also had an EV charger fitted by a professionally registered electrician. He left it with an RCCB fitted where it should have been an RCBO. Electrician with years of experience and he never even realised an RCCB did not have over current protection. God knows what dangers are out there because of him. The trades in this country are utterly dire because no one checks their work.
Beware noise pollution leaky not so well insullated houses besides radiator replacement and gone bust contractors
A great practical advice interview. Any body considering a heat pump should listen to this first.
Can't we get heat geek, urban plumbers and a manufacturer in to fix this installation at no expense to the owner?
[sound of crickets]
At the very least it would be interesting to have heat geek and urban plumbers survey the system and tell us what is wrong with it and answer the owners questions about how long it should take to warm up and whether you are supposed to leave it on whilst you're on vacation.
Maybe your superhero can fix everyone's heat pumps, get around to everyone like Santa.
@@robmule4647 Who is my superhero? Bottom line is we see lots of videos from the channels above and others saying if a heat pump system is designed and installed correctly then it should work. And, unless these people aren't telling the truth then they probably do. However when we get cases where a heat pump isn't working then we need some experts to jump on that and tell us why and how it should have been designed / installed. Then there are more general questions like those posed above i.e. time to heat, do you need to leave it on whilst on vac or turn it on remotely a day before returning home etc.
@@robthomas7232 you have a very short memory. Heat pump geek can tell LG how to make a quiet head pump yes and get round to fixing everyone's heat pumps, he's magic like Santa
This is an absolutely classic case. No disrespect to the owner and he is very brave to share his experience.
There will be many cases like this unfortunately.
It is highly likely there is no issue with the ASHP at all and this all down to the fact of bad or no system design (in the house).
My guesses are :
1. No prior heat loss calculation.
2. No emitter sizing design.
3. Therefore hit and miss ASHP size calculation.
4. The underfloor was likely designed for the high temperature (gas) boiler and the pitch between loops means with the lower flow temperatures of the ASHP it is always likely to underperform.
Finally - although the owners have decided to go back to gas (and I don’t blame them) it would be make for an interesting video if he called the Heatgeeks in for a visit and do a case study into the hydronics design.
This may well happen but the fact is that £18,000 into the project and relying on 'experts' he has an expensive unreliable heating system that he will now have to spend £ X XXX put right. It cannot be his fault.
@@SkillBuilder I never implied it was his fault, nor do I think I it was. It all reflects badly on the box shifting side of the heating industry - people being paid for skills they do not have, essentially fraud.
Its always a miss if you are trying to heat house with 35/30degree but radiators are for 90/70 degree system. Installers were just grabbing money and didnt care.
@@SkillBuilderknew it was going to be a disaster story the moment he said the original installer went out of business.
@@SkillBuilder For that kind of money, it wouldn't be much more to have a mechanical engineer with HVAC-specific experience review any plan. If you really just can't believe that air-source heat pumps work beautifully for many years at a time at extremely low cost, visit any west coast city in the US, go visit the highest-volume residential Mitsubishi ductless installer, and have them take you around and talk to those in the homes. Assuming it is the correct design for the home and that particular climate, as the OP references, they have little or no competition from other forms of heating and cooling in terms of efficiency and payback time. For example, there are small veterans' apartments publicly-funded in Bishop, California that run them in every unit, principally powered by solar installed on the roof, and they have been solid since day one. Sounds like you just don't have your engineering and supply-chain act together if you're not able to generate the same results.
My 10 year old airmec heat pump started frosting over last years.After 4 different engineers came round finally workd out the mother board had failed thus not allowing the unit to go into defrost mode.problem solved! The main problem with heat pumps is the fact that you can find an installer in 2 minutes on Google but finding someone who knows how to repair them when they go wrong well that's another story.
Would definitely love to see HeatGeek and Urban Plumber take this on!!
Would be such a great opportunity to prove that heatpumps do work when designed and installed correctly!
@@PolitiTrix-my6yw this could not be further from the truth I’m afraid. They aren’t noisy and they absolutely do work!!
Would be absolutely amazing to see what they come up with. Hopefully the owner doesn't decomission the system so someone who really knows what they're doing can document it and publicise the findings, heat pump install post mortem style
I have 2 heat pumps and I disagree with this. It’s not just about a good design and install, they need to know when to say no it won’t work. I have 2 that work very well, but it does require very specific conditions to actually perform and the needed level to be on par with a gas boiler. They are far from the solutions for all homes
oh okay .he must be making this video because he likes telling lies . @@deanchapple1
@@PolitiTrix-my6yw the earth is flat and that’s why heatpumps work so well. 😂🤯🤪🤦🏼♂️
So apart from it being mis-sold, and everything going wrong, and it being intolerably noisy, and it not working, and costing seven or eight times as much as the gas boiler that you still need anyway, it sounds great. Sign me up!
😂👍
The “fair and balanced” Roger loves your comment for some reason. Presumably his total lack of bias shinning through.
@@edc1569 out of curiosity, did you drive alone wearing a nappy on your face?
@@robmule4647of course he did😂
I really loved this video. Such a relaxed, informative and above all genuine chat about heat pumps. It's really good, I love all your videos, keep up with the good work.
We have a air source heat pump installed by local authority in our rented one bedroom semi bungalow five years ago. We don't use the hot water part as it's too expensive. The air source really struggles when outside temp gets below 10 degrees Celsius and because its electric very expensive. So my advice to anyone is think again! Our bungalow was built in the fifties and has cavity insulation and loft has about 30cm insulation. Arty
Good honest statement confirms everything ive ever thought about these piles of expensive junk. Thanks.
And our experience was very different. 2 bed bungalow, similar age, and it worked great for the entire time we lived there. no issue with heating even when it got to -10C
Well i live in a 2 bed 50s bungalow. There are many cons ( pardon the pun) with these systems. Expensive to install, not many engineers qualified to service or fix. These things can spend a lot of time defrosting due to moist outside air freezing on the evaporator. They just dont give enough heat to properly power conventional radiators and so on. Ex refrigerator engineer talking. @@djenson
@@Doug.... The only time the defrosts noticeably tanked the cop is when it snowed and it started to suck snow into the condenser. agree with your other points. even ours was initially misconfigurad.
Well i didnt want to get into a slanging match me old mate. Im truly glad you had a good experience with your system 👍 As an observation it doesn't seem that long ago when Roger did a video initially and didnt have a good word to say about these systems ! Regards @@djenson
Top tip. Just rotate your fridge at home 180 degrees and the fins at the back will give off the same amount of heat.
He has much, much more patience and tolerance than I could have.
I think the answer to this is to forget about heat pumps but to go down the pub more. When you're down the pub, especially for a very long time, enough to make a difference to your utility bills (if you turn the heating off 30 minutes before you leave home), you're going to get drunk, so your troubles will seem less important, but you're also going to get warmer, because alcohol does that. When you stagger home (it's got to be a pub within staggering distance obviously) you collapse into bed and wake up to a cold bedroom. But that's also fine.
Last winter I didn't use my CH at all! I have two oil-filled LX radiators, one upstairs, one downstairs. I moved them from room to room as required. Heating only one room is how our ancestors lived, not for a few decades, but for thousands and thousands of years (this year, due to the lack of subsidy, I will unfortunately be using my gas CH more).
What's strange in fact is that we have normalised this idea (only normalised since the 1960s) that our whole house should be 20 degrees all the time. Look at any 1940s B/W film set in the UK: in the cold months the average family would spend the whole evening, together!, in the kitchen/dining room. No-one disappeared into their bedrooms for hours, or even into the "parlour", because all such rooms were blinking freezing for about 5 months of the year. That in fact is the normal way to spend the cold months in the island of Britain. With the Climate Emergency it's easier to do than for our ancestors as our winters can hardly even be qualified as true winters.
Or even better, move to a cage and make some wood fire. Cozy and elegant. 20°C in a house? We are living at 23-24°C inside temperature here in Romania. Man, how the wheels turned from 1989 between West and East Europe.
Air to water heat pumps in the UK are madness.
We have 4x Air to Air units, super simple 1 unit inside and 1 outside all installed for £4400 (less than full wet central heating system). They have a SCOP of 4.2, and heat the room instantly - much faster than a gas boiler and rads.
They also cool in summer
Yet these systems are not eligible for any grant
Interesting. never heard of these before. But when I looked them up on 'Green match' web site they claim - ' The air to air heat pump cost for the average UK household of 2-3 people ranges from £9,030 - £20,070 (includes heat pump, installation, and annual maintenance). So were you saying it was 4* £4400 for your system?
Air to air heat pumps don’t get grants but are vat free for equipment and installation - just installed 2 for lounge and bedroom - very impressive so far
@@ianmatlock1 yes we have 3x 2.5kw (£1000 ea) units, one in each bedroom, and 1x 5kw (£1400) unit in open-plan ground floor
All condensate is gravity drained and all units have the condenser directly behind them outside, so no trunking
@@davebaker4620 Brilliant tech, and always get max efficiency due to condenser & indoor being perfectly sized for one another, no buffer tanks, pumps, multi room temperature controls, seems madness to me!
I would imagine lots wouldn't get permission for having 4 outside units of the house as it would look hideous. Especially if it were a terrace. You couldn't have two units at the front of the house right ?
I'm a Chartered Building Services Engineer with CIBSE, UK. Monovalent Domestic Heat Pump applications require engineering design input, from the outset. No different to commercial applications. Energy Assessors and Plumbers are not Engineers, and homeowners are not willing to pay for design input, from an experienced professional. I designed my neighbours system, for a new 4-bed detached house, with underfloor heating throughout. It was just a challanging as any commercial system i've designed. They are a great source of heat, if applied correctly, to the right home, thats had sufficient thermal fabric upgrades.
Any supplier/installer should be MCS Certified
Well done to Roger for continuing to have an open mind. A big well done to John for leading the way and doing what you've done. Hopefully you get sorted.
And in the words of Roy Keane, Adam is doing his job.
This discussion was very useful and honest. I definitely am concerned about our energy use on the global environment, but the system you have , has to be useful and sensible. Proper installation and analysis of your particular situation is absolutely essential. Thank you for this.
We bought a new build 11 years ago which has an air source heat pump system.
Honestly can’t fault it, it’s been great and never had an issue.
Unlike a boiler system where the radiators come on and get very hot and then go off ours tend to stay on for longer and are just warm to touch.
I prefer it to be honest because the temperature is steady all day instead of going up and down.
Only problem I’ve found is finding a company that can service them.
Yes heat pumps should work, the system needs to be properly designed and installed. Helpful too if someone could come out and service them.
Quick buy a lottery ticket, as you got great luck… my experience is heat pumps are too expensive to install, and never meet their cop ratings. It’s a con, to get people to move away from gas. It’s that simple get them away from using gas and they are gone, and the end user is left with high bills, high maintenance costs, and a badly performing heat system….. do not install you will regret it.
😂😂 bs
@@user-sf7ip7ik9c what a strange comment, not sure what you think I’m lying about? Are you ok?
Bull,,,,,,t
It's a shame we couldn't have a better look at the installation, what size pipes were the flow and return to the heat pump? Is there a sufficient flow rate going through the system? Also the heat pump looked quite close to the wall and it's installed in a fairly narrow side path so it might be recirculating cold air.
We are filming with Heat Geeks next week so watch out for their take on it. One thing they won't be doing it criticising the customer for not signing up to a £1.000 designers course before he engaged a company. Some of the comments on this video suggest that anyone who engages a company to install a heat pump should know more than the people they hire.
Great video which will hopefully make others think about if this is the correct way forward considering cavity wall and loft insulation etc.❤
I didn't expect to sit through half an hour on heat pumps, but you both spoke very well, and i enjoyed that! Thank you!
Glad you enjoyed it! Not many people stay the course
It just goes to show as a consumer of renewables the biggest task is finding an installer you trust, recommended by others, who should remain in business for the foreseeable future and likely to be around to fix stuff and honour warranties
Thank you ! We had been considering a heat pump but no longer, never thought about noisy fans and doubling the size of the radiators is a definite no, too intrusive. I imagine if you could be underfloor heating plus keep the gas boiler for instant hot water then it might fly…….but not for us thanks
Great vid Roger. And you John, thank you for sharing your experience. Appreciate both your comments/views from real life data 👍
Great video, the size of the radiators says it all, trying to make heat form an inadequate System.
Hi Roger, I’m really glad you interview people with real experience rather than theoretical discussions. I’m also a similar age (probably a bit older) than you. I have a reasonably well insulated house and a 7 year old super efficient boiler Ideal Vogue 40HE, running on opentherm with an Evohome zoned setup. I’ve looked at solar panels and heat pumps and concluded I’d be long dead before any remote chance of payback. I’ll save more money buy running my current heating for the next 20 years if I’m lucky enough to last that long. I wish the government came clean about this, especially with older people, the investment in heat pump technology is not worth it. Why are they not investing in alternative low cost heating which suits the British weather? I believe Worcester Bosch did a successful conversion to Hydrogen where the cost of converting boilers was a fraction of the cost of heat pumps. They should s-end their effort on researching lower cost alternatives which are a lot less complex.
It’s called con
Good example of a poor install, you would get the same with a poor install of a gas boiler except it would probably cost more to run. We have the same LG Therma V 9kw mono block installed 2 years ago in our 1963 detached bungalow. It replaced the old Grant combo oil burner (smelly thing) and its was swap outed in a day and half no new rads added, no new pipe works, no extra insulation, it all works off the old system and gives us 20c all day long. Obviously our home is not ideal, but when the temerature dropped to -8c it did struggle to keep up with the losses. We knew this so invested in battery storage to help shift the cheap energy over to the day time use, and added Infrared Panels to run off our solar on cold sunny days. YOU ARE WELCOME TO COME AROUND AND INTERVIEW ME! So long as you publicises it!!!!!!!!!!! My question is why did you not invite the Heat Geeks round to investigate and fix this gentalmans problems? Hmmm probably because it does not fit in your agenda!!
Great video! I (my parents) had a virtually identical situation to John but in a new build well insulation house. The lack of knowledge from the installer resulted in the heat pump been taken out and a gas boiler went in....
Separately I can also strongly resonate with the idea of a hybrid system, in my house I had an air to air heat pump installed (due to cost vs air to water heat pump) where there is no gas. I use a combination of the heat pump and the old storage heaters to keep the house warm and it seems to work reasonably well (especially in mild winters where the storage heaters are not needed).
A hybrid system is indeed the best way to go. There are several reasons, for example sizing of the HP can be lower (and way less expensive), heat pumps drop in capacity with lower temperatures, and also you have redundant heating. Unless the house is well insulated, the heat pump should not be used at all.
Thank you for that interview, very informative and helpful!
great vlog loads of information, very well explained by your guest john
Very logical and clear. For older properties a heat pump can be seen as a supplementary system, so you run gas / heat pump side by side as a hybrid system to get the best of both worlds, for the planet and your pocket
There ain’t no need .
Thank you for this, adds clarity to a subject that is mystifying many. Very helpful.
Very interesting chat. You gave me lots to think about.
What a brilliant video. I've had exactly this same list of issues with exactly the same heat pump! One issue is that it is a high flow temperature model with two compressors in series, so the design COP is actually only 2.3 (my real world COP is more like 1.8).
We've decided to transition to a wood pellet boiler instead while we work on rebuilding the house to improve the insulation (and then we might go back to a more efficient heat pump). Wood pellets have their own issues, but at least you get a decent flow temperature and you avoid crippling electricity bills.
Could you not run it at a lower flow temp and reap the benefits of this? Just because it's high flow temp doesn't mean you need to run it at high flow temps. Running lower temps would probably only use 1 compressor.
The current minimum guidelines for design COP is 2.7. I'm not sure when your heat pump was installed, but I question the competency of an installer who was willing to design to a 2.3 SCOP.
Pellets are expensive plus breaks down quite often after 4 years or so which is why my brother is taking his out and now has an air to air vented system which works well and has
@GregoryCarterUK The compressors are probably not in series, it's probably what's called a cascade system. In those you have two separate refrigeration circuits and one circuit's evaporator cools the other circuit's condenser.
Either that, or if you have a CO2 heat pump then the compressors are actually in series, but I don't think CO2 heat pumps are available in the UK yet. Rather common in Japan though.
@@Vaelin404I have questioned them too! They are useless and suggestion everyone avoid (Climate Save Renewables). To be fair though, at the time (2019) I believe the minimum SCOP was lower than today.
It's interesting reading all the misconceptions about heat pumps. It doesn't matter what building you have or what your level of insulation when comparing gas boilers to heat pumps in a like to like situation - you should still be able to run more efficiently with lower running costs than a gas boiler as long as you ensure a low flow temperature within the heat pump's efficient range.
Take for example a draughty Victorian property in worst case winter with a central heating system running it's radiators flat out at 60°C continuously with a room temperature of 20°C, it's cold outside at -5°C and the heat loss from the property is 12kW. So the radiators are pumping out 12kW to balance the loss and keep the room temperature at a constant 20°C. So, the radiator to room delta T = 60° - 20° = 40°C.
Now, if you double the radiator surface area and halve the delta T to 20°C you get the same 12kW of heat output but now the flow temperature is 40°C. That's well within a heat pump's efficient range with a COP = 3 consuming 4kW (12kW divided by COP of 3).
Compare that to the previous gas boiler with its at best 90% efficiency 12kW/0.9 = 13.3kW (1.3kW goes up the flue).
Looking at cost with electricity at 27.45p/kWh x 4kW = £1.09/hour
And for gas:
7.05p/kWh x 13.3kW = £0.937/h
That's worst case design and the costs almost match. At higher ambient temperatures the heat pumps weather compensation will reduce the flow temperature and improve efficiency considerably with a seasonal COP, or SCOP, of 4 or more whereas a gas boiler can't go above 90% efficiency. Re-running those figures for an SCOP of 4 gives the heat pump a running cost of 82.35p against gas costing 93.7p i.e. a saving of 12% with the heat pump over the year.
The killer comes when you combine the heat pump with solar panels and a battery to drive it (you can't drive a gas boiler from electricity!). For half the year over summer there can be enough solar to run the heat pump entirely with zero bills and export the surplus solar at 20p to 30p /kWh to bank it in your electricity account and re-import it back in winter at a cheap rate 7.5p/kWh and store it overnight in your battery for use during the day. Overall you could be looking at a 75% reduction in running costs compared to gas and the whole system can pay for itself in seven years and again in the next seven etc. Compare that to a gas boiler when in the same time you'll have spent the same on gas as the capital cost of solar plus battery and a heat pump, but it will have gone up the chimney instead and you'll have nothing to show for it.
That is a lot of work to try to convince people of your perspective - Electricity has reached a point of expense whereby millions of people are simply not be able to afford to run such systems let alone buy them. I like your thoughts on running such a system on an old Victorian solid brick windy city kinda house....
@@martinp17Well, I thought it was worth pointing out that if a gas boiler can heat a property you can actually set up a heat pump to do the same job with cheaper running costs on electricity than the gas boiler on gas. You just need to keep the flow temperature low and you achieve that with bigger radiator surface areas. Insulation and draftiness apply equally to gas boilers as they do to heat pumps if the kW loss from the property is the same at the same room temperature which it will be.
In fact in the follow up videos to this one Heat Geeks brought in by Skill Builder did exactly that - so lower running costs than the previous gas boiler once the errors on the first heat pump install were corrected. It pays to have the knowledge to make it work properly. With the £7,500 grant available now some people even get it done for free or at least a huge discount.
@@johnh9449 Look, the 7.5K grant is not much help when you could be facing having to bring your home up to EPC standard - which could potentially cost thousands of pounds, you then face a potential install fee of 20K + which would likely include all new radiators, ripping out the current system and goodness know what else. You also have to figure out a way of getting hot water - oh, this might be possible going back to 80 yo technology and having a hot water cylinder! I think potentially these systems might be worth looking at come 3/4th generation with further improvements but for old stock houses (about 40% being pre 1946) they are going to likely be a big expensive disappointment.
@martinp17 Look? I did. I read what you said and you have a point about the situation you describe but not everyone's situation is the same and it depends what they want to do too - like getting rid of gas or deciding what to do with any savings etc.
The point I was simply trying to counter is the mistaken belief that heat pumps only work in well insulated houses and in poorly insulated ones boilers are needed for instead. That isn't true as I explained in detail. Heat pumps can run cheaper with the same heat output because of greater efficiency with lower flow temperature.
I replaced all my old battered single panel radiators with double ones and installed a modern unvented 300L cylinder all for £6,000 and there was only a £5k grant available then. It runs far cheaper than the previous gas boiler. That's my situation.
Granted someone without cavity wall and loft insulation would either have to do that first or proceed without the grant at a higher capital cost and that depends on their situation and motivation.
Ultimately for more capital cost you can even also install solar with a battery to power the heat pump and end up with zero bills and the whole system pays for itself in a few years and a second time within its lifetime but that depends if you have savings to invest for the high returns but not everybody does of course. A forward thinking government could help there with such an investment for the benefit of the country if it gets serous about upgrading the housing stock. Perhaps things will move further to that end given that it pays for itself and gives energy security. There are already some steps in that direction with grants for solar etc. We'll see. Did you know in Italy you can get a 110% grant for such an upgrade - insulation, heat pump, solar plus battery - 100% the lot and 10% extra for your trouble. That's forward thinking. Such a government would get my vote.
@@johnh9449 'That's forward thinking. Such a government would get my vote' - don't hold your breath - I will consider anything that lowers my energy bill which is currently beyond scandelous - unfortunately we are likely in the minority (I am thinking that both you and I are at least in 'head above water shape' financially) I know too many people who are making really hard decisions about food v heating and in a way this kind of conversation is mute when really this type of system is just a distraction from the real issue which is affordable living. I wish you well.
I don't disagree with anything said, however it is clear they do not work well on homes not built with a heatpump in mind, or if they have been installed poorly. We have had a valliant arotherm 12kw heat pump for the last year or so now and have got on very well with it. In the last few weeks it has been getting a cop of around 4.3, thats at outside temps of 5-10°C and inside temps of around 19°C (we are comfortable at that temperature). It's installed in a newly converted barn conversion with underfloor heating all round down stairs and in the bathrooms upstairs. It easily makes our hot water to 45°C and once a week up to 65°C for legionella. So far we are very happy with it. It produces around 35kw of heat a day currently using around 8.1kw of electricity to do so and on our tarrif it costs around £1.50 a day for heating and hot water. I would highly recommend on a new build designed for it with underflpor heating etc, but not as a gas boiler upgrade without lots of insulation upgrades and radiators...
We also have it doing cooling in summer and this has worked very well with fancoil radiators in bedrooms. Concerning the noise (I was genuinely supposed how quite it was) our one is whisper quiet and as it starts on an invertor (I believe all the new ones do now) it slowly ramps up when starting so it hasnt got a loud start up noise. We should also remember in hotter countries every house has Aircon which is just as noisey and we don't hear them complaining about it 🤷
Great to hear you have the system set-up for cooling with fancoils in the bedrooms. Are you using the fancoils for both heating and cooling?
@@tlangdon12 yes
Very interesting Roger. Just about to go on my heat pump course I’m not convinced yet.
Let us know how you get on
Lots of really useful real life experience of a heat pump system -albeit 2 people living in a 6 bedroom house! There's some real food for thought here though. There definitely needs to be a more nuanced set of solutions to cover the range of houses in the UK, particularly older stock. I wonder if you could do a video on The Zero Emission Boiler such as the Tepeo which might be an alternative.
Roger, I work for a company that designs and manufactures large air source heatpumps for commercial applications. As a private individual, I would be very interested to dissect John's unit to find out whether there was any underlying problem with it. The COPs quoted seem extremely poor unless the unit had major issues with ice build up and airflow. I can say from experience that defrost / UK cold weather performance is one of the more challenging aspects of heat pump engineering design.
We moved into a rural new build in 2021 that was a few years old at the time and rated EPC A, no mains gas so it has a 4.5kw solar array and an ASHP. I was used to oil central heating before so the lower flow temperatures on this system took some getting used to.
Being in NE Scotland, the temps are usually on the chilly side. But after some tweaks to the compensation curve, we can get away with a flow temp of 32-40c depending on what the outdoor sensor adjusts it to. Radiators feel luke warm as expected and rooms are comfortable.
I've also used the fixed flow temp setting at around 35c, that also works well. The traditional thermostat setting isn't great as the control unit isn't positioned in a cooler part of the bungalow, but otherwise it seems it was a good installation. Fan isn't too noisy but we don't have any near neighbours except sheep.. defrost cycle kicks in as required, not using much electricity.
I use the timer mode, and adjust it depending on time of year.
Hot water is on 1hr per day which serves the 3 of us.
That's my experience so far, but like anyone in a similar scenario, I'm still learning each winter season.
We bought a house with no access to gas. We already had an old oil boiler so we replaced it. The plumber suggested a heat pump and said he could do the work. It took 5 months and struggled to keep the house comfortable. Before the price increases we used the oil to get the house up to temperature, then switched over to heat pump because of the amount of electricity it used to run the pumps from cold. These days we avoid the heat pump because we can't predict the cost. Instead we use oil - we watch the kerosene prices and buy when it is cheap. That way we get no nasty surprises. From early spring to late autumn we have a conservatory which provides enough heat for the house.
I had an ASHP installed in February '23. Run alongside a PV 8kw solar array and 20kwhr batteries. The property is grade 2 listed stone built barn conversion.
So far I am not finding problems like those described. The weird thing is the house is like Goldilocks porridge neither too hot or too cold. The internal temperature varies a little but is stable within a narrow range.
I am using a flow temperature of about 36 and a return temperature of 28-30. With weather compensation.This provides stability between 19-21 degrees.
My system triangulates the outside temperature rather than a direct reading and internal temperature is calculated by an algorithm based on outward and return temperature. So far it all provides an estimated COP of 4+ based on the system's internal thermistors.
The combination of solar batteries and ASHP means that over a year the house is almost carbon neutral. Total power costs for a 200 sq metre property are expected to be between £1,500 and £2,000.
The return on capital is 12-15% based on current projections. Since domestic collar production is exempt from income tax factoring this into the mix makes it an excellent investment. Certainly better for the environment and your pocket than an electric car.
Absolutely. That's roughly the size of what I did although the returns I calculate to be a little higher - are you making the most of smart tariffs?
Andy
You have yet to use your new heating system in cold weather. It will be interesting to see your figures after 3 or 4 years. You can't build models on half a season.
@@SkillBuilder Well my system which sounds of similar size at least as far as PV is concerned kept my room temperature at a constant 23° C through last winter. So far this year I've generated 6.5MWh and consumed 7.11MWh to run the heat pump and domestic loads.
@@SkillBuilder February was fairly cold where I live! I'd love to see you follow up this video with a trip to one of these successful installs. Use your obvious knowledge, and good explanation skills to go through why it was a success.
yes that is exactly what we have found. five years in and we have a steady 20 and its amazing. You don't 'really get' the way it functions efficiently in an old building. old buildings need a steady heat. You shouldn't turn it off.
Most of the homes here in NYC, have the mini split heaters + gas boilers (for their hot water)
Interesting, I bought an 18th century farm in Sweden last year, the main house currently has a wood fired system, it works really well, heating the house beautifully with 70 0dd degree water, but, I need to be at home and load it three or four times a day when it´s cold which as you can imagine can be a bit of a pain, we have a guesthouse on a seperate system that is heated by burning grain, similar to a pellet or wood chip burner but converted for water damaged grain that I then dry with fans, this system is a bit more automated but I still have to service the burning unit once a week during winter and have to fill up the grain bunker as and when required so I am looking to install heat pumps within a hybrid system just to take care of that base heat level and boost when required. Being a Brit living in Sweden I found it hard to get the information I wanted but watching this video has made me confident I am thinking along the right path. Thanks mate! If you have any opinions on my setup I would love to hear them
Hi Roger.. I really enjoyed your conversation with John. I actually watched it in reverse to the followup one when The Heat Geek (Adam) was on site. You guys really nailed it and I am now sooooooo happy I never went with a heat pump underfloor heating system. I am living in rural South Australia in an offgrid situation (power/water etc) pretty much like a modern Earthship. When I designed the house I was really concious about power consumption especially heating in the colder months. I have a 20Kw LIPO with 14Kw solar panels system and it is balanced and works really well. But relating to the heat pump, I wanted the most energy efficient heating device for the underfloor heating system (circulated water/hydronic) possible. That includes the system cost. I simply went with hot water storage just like a normal domestic HWS. I heat the foor all day with solar excess power and consume the tank during the night. I get 24 hours of slab heat from one session of energy transfer. So it is good until the next day when the tank is hot again. In really cold situations I boost the HWS with a water jacket on the wood stove. I guess my real comment is that you work you ideas so well. I am a subscriber now but originally came to your channel for info about rendering and concrete work. Keep up the good work mate. Cheers from down under where it is Summer. Keep warm. Regards, Gary
There’s a common theme running through all the stories about heat pumps that don’t work - bad design and installation. This I would say is quite common amongst the trades in the UK, they’re stuck in the past and don’t like anything ‘new’, and will almost deliberately do a bad job because they refuse to learn how to do it properly.
Despite a bad installation, I’ve managed to get my ASHP running rather well.
We will still be using gas boilers in 2050 because we don’t have a workforce that is willing to adapt.
A lot of people are going to be cold because by then the urgency ogf the problem will require gas to be shut down wholesale.
This is what happens when the government incentives come into play. All these "traditional" HVAC companies jump on the band wagon with the new technology and they don't know what they are doing. The design and installation needs to be done properly for it to work. We had this issue in Canada when we had incentives for ground source heat pumps. There were all these companies popping up and trying to install ground source heat pumps. Then we were left with a bunch of systems that weren't designed properly and people thought it was the heat pump that was the problem.
Although recently retired, I spent over 50 years working in house building. I've worked on houses with many different types of heating system, one thing I know is, fitting a 21 century heating system in a 20th century house will have many costly problems to overcome, and any government grant wont scratch the surface. designing new build houses with either air or ground source heat pumps is a much simpler task, so I really cant understand why the large national house builders are allowed to still build new houses with traditional gas fired central heating. it all comes down to cost.
Garbage, we live in a stone cottage built 1820 no damp course, heat pump way cheaper than our old combi boiler. You just need an installer that is competent in the technology.
If you've been in the business for over 5 decades, I'm sure that you are familiar with the phrase "builder's grade" - low spec equipment that can be installed quickly by a monkey with minimal training. The builder has little or no incentive to be concerned about future operating costs. As to why the practice is allowed to continue, it's politics. Show me one large national builder who doesn't donate to, and isn't on a first name basis with all the pols who make the rules under which he operates.
Roger, I have watched many of your videos and have come to realise that you just don't like heat pumps. My installation tells a very different story. A 1930s detached bungalow that 2 years ago had an EPC of 54 E. I had additional loft and cavity wall insulation installed then a 5kW ASHP and some UFH followed by 5kWp of solar with a 9.5kWh battery. My EPC is now 100 A and I'm on target to break even at the end of one year on energy bills. That's cooking, DHW and heating set at 20C. I use Octopus Flux in summer and Cosy in winter. It wasn't all plain sailing. One thing I have learned is that you have to watch your traders like a hawk. The SCOP for my Vaillant Arotherm system is around 3.9. Your points about weather variations are largely invalid as the weather compensation deals with it automatically.
Brilliant craic......i am sending this vid to all my prospective customers
Hi Roger, my system works perfectly well and have absolutely zero complaints, its a refurbished and well insulated very old stone cottage. I'll try and get permission from my landlord but personally happy to show you round and give you my review after just over a year of using one.
O.K that would be good to see. You haven't had a hard winter yet but hopefully this year we will get a heavy snow fall and a few days of sub zero temperatures.
@@SkillBuilder I'd love to see that as well. I just bought on old stone cottage and need to decide how to heat it. Not on the gas grid and existing museum quality storage heaters probably not the best option. Go for it Roger. I'd also appreciate if you could help with information about oil and liquid gas alternatives. I believe they will be banned as new installation at some point in the future?
I'd love to hear experiences of air to air (not water) heat pumps in a 60's semi detached bungalow. I think they would be a good match?
@@BenJandrellair to air is a different story as you're only ever going to be blowing warm air around rather than hot water. The killer of heat pumps is too much of a temperature difference between start and finish temp. You don't really have that problem with air to air. Hence how office buildings have had them for years.
@@SkillBuilder Ohhh that'll be nice. Perhaps finally the winter will bump off granny and I can cash in.
if that conservatory you filmed in is open to the house that will be a major reason for high fuel bills.
You are very welcome to come and see my installation, if you come in February I will have a years worth of data for you to look at, my water tank was put in the loft on the platform installed when the house was built to have the cold water tank, very simple and works well, I worked out that using 4000kW of electricity in a year would equate to the 12000kWh of gas used previously, so far it looks like I will use 2000 so am very happy.
Please send contact details www.skill-builder.uk/send
@@SkillBuilder Done!
excellent....we need to see WHERE these things work, and the 'output' that you are happy with....one mans warmth is a nother man's baltic! lol
@@edwyncorteen1527
One of the best videos, to not get a heat pump, i shall pass this on to my landlord, our gas combi boiler is a gem, easy to use.
Really interesting video, clear, concise and very informative. Pretty much illustrates all that is wrong with our current one size to fit all strategy that will clearly never work. Electricity is about three times the cost of gas per KWh so even with a COP of 3 there is unlikely to be a cash saving anyway and that’s before we look at the extra costs involved for plane and installation. Much work still to be done as well as a massive training need nationwide together with much stricter industry controls on who can sell or work on these highly technical systems.
I'm grateful for this guy for being an early adopter. I think heat pump installations have improved a lot since then. You won't get the grant now without cavity wall and loft insulation.
He has had it for 5 years. Early adopters were 50+ years ago. Even 20 years ago heatpumps were widespread, but maybe not in uk.
I think we need to build the pool of skilled heat pump installers in the UK. There are solutions to all the problems he mentions.
There's a subtle point to this regarding the insulation requirement for the boiler upgrade scheme, you won't get it with an outstanding recommendation for cavity wall / loft insulation on your EPC. I.e. If you have solid walls where you cannot have cavity wall insulation, it would not be outstanding on the EPC and you will still be able to get the grant.
But in that case the EPC would recommend external wall insulation, I would assume? My EPC recommended floor insulation, so they will recommend any insulation that you don't already have. You can get the BUS grant with no outstanding recommendations for wall or roof insulation
@@MatthewEng2593The BUS guidance explicitly calls out cavity walls: "has no recommendations for loft or cavity wall insulation"
Definitely come and see my hp rog 👍 please get in touch. Replaced my 5 year old oil boiler with a 13kw hp. North cornwall
When you aren't on mains gas it probably makes sense but a gas boiler is hard to beat.
Send me your contact details www.skiil-builder.uk/send
Very informative thanks for the vid... been toying with the idea for a while... but to me one of the biggest turnoffs is the size of the pump, and finding a suitable place to locate it
A good honest interview there Roger, well done.
Hybrid + well insulated house seems to be the way forward. Still looking at 15-18k
Those large RADs are nae Bonny!
Gas is the way forward
Simple old reclaimed electric storage heaters off peak, coal and wood stoves and a big immersion tank. Lots of rigid board insulation in loft and walls. Simple and cheap to install, nothing fancy to go wrong. No clever digital electronics. No gas at all. Any defects easily fixed. Boring but cheap and effective.
And no need for an annual service or expensive "service plan" insurance that, when you need it, will tell you your boiler is obsolete or unrepairable (probably because a generic thermocouple is not available for that model)
In Britain we find huge resources to determine what went suddenly wrong: inquiries into Covid, Grenfell, Hillsborough, Saville. And rightly so. We learn some lessons and try not to repeat past mistakes. But we don't learn to plan far ahead. The energy crisis and global warming has been creeping towards us for years. So we have a haphazard building and planning policy, poor housing stock and bewildered consumers. We have dodgy polititions giving dodgy money to dodgy institutions for the purpose of training and accrediting dodgy tradesmen to plan and fit complex technology before the next election. What can possibly go wrong? Stay tuned for the 2030 inquiry into the mis-selling of heat pumps.
Great to hear this objective summary.
The great thing about these sort of videos is the diversity of opinion. Opinion versus actual facts of users, so we have an array of positive versus negative and that’s great for people like me contemplating converting. We need to have all facts to make an informed decision. Thanks for posting.
But the users can only report the 'facts' of their installation, and if it has been botched, then their experience isn't relevant to someone who has access to a competent installer. It does highlight what can go wrong, but there were plenty of things went wrong with gas boilers when they were introduced.
@@tlangdon12 the one eyed man is king in the valley of the blind, what the series of Skill Builder on heat pumps show is the need for competent trained skilled people. Botched installs exist in all professions sadly and the poor unsuspecting public pay the ultimate price.
Been researching in to heat pumps. As a sound engineer I've been worried about the noise also.
noise = loss
I worked in audio production for years. Never had an issue with heat pump noise, the latest ones a really quiet and often have a super quiet mode which you can set to operate at night for example if you are concerned, but honestly, never had any issues. A gas combi is far noisier when its running.
Do you actually have a heat pump? The issue I have with people saying they are quiet is they always record themselves standing next to them in the middle of the day with a microphone that’s probably optimised to cut out ambient noise. During the day we mentally filter out the huge amount of noise that is produced so we don’t notice it. Take being in a pub and having a conversation. Actually listen to the background noise and you realise just how great our brains are at it.
So the relative noise of a heat pump during the day is minimal, but at night it’s going to be different, just how different remains to be seen once you have a ton of them running in your neighbourhood. What happens when something happens like in this instance where the fans are fubar and someone hasn’t got the £600 to fix them and won’t. Does environmental health get involved? Boilers do make a racket I agree but they aren’t on all the time. Personally I like heat pumps but if they annoy me what is the solution? Move? To save a tiny bit of co2 50% of power is produced by gas power stations at 33% efficiency, smacks of green washing to me.
I have a 14kw heat pump at the back of my house and there is no issue with noise, my wife is highly sensitive to noise and she would be complaining if there was a problem!
My oil boiler wakes me up every morning! I've no doubt a heat pump would do similar though.
I was in Poland for training, Poles in this field are world champions in building heat pump systems in Europe, an amazing experience, we are just starting out in the UK.
There's a lot of comments on this video of people who really don't understand that they've been fed a narrative
People don't want to understand what they're paying for. So can get conned very easily.
I don't have a heat pump yet but I'm planning to get one. My house is probably the worst one to put it in.
1904 solid wall house 4 open fireplaces. 50 mm insulation in the roof.
A lot of work to do, agreed. But I like a challenge.
The common denominator in these stories is the quality of the installer. Heat pumps require careful planning otherwise they will be ineffective, inefficient, or both. Sadly, inexperienced or lazy installers are chucking in heat pumps without the necessary level of planning and assessment beforehand.
The hard part is figuring out whether the installer is any good before they wreck your heating system. I'd suggest looking at the Heat Geek map to find someone. Also educate yourself enough so you can smell bullshit.
Or, if you're on the gas mains, just get a gas boiler.
Heat pumps will work fine in the UK climate if correctly designed and installed. There is mass adoption in Norway and over 600,000 were installed in France last year. It comes down to 2 things. The cost of electricity vs natural gas in any particular country and having enough professionals to properly design and install the systems. In terms of heat pumps not working, the 20+ million Norwegians, French, Polish, Germans etc that have purchased them in recent years tells us they work just fine when designed and installed correctly in a range of climates similar and more extreme than in the UK.
Did you not watch the video? Lots of things "should" work....
In Norway I suspect insulation is far superior in homes. British houses are often not well insulated but if you do insulate them more than they were designed to be you get condensation and mould issues from poor ventilation and airflow.
What about French, German and Polish homes?
The UK is a country where most gas boiler installations are done by people who do not have a clue.......
Great interview - thanks!
A well insulated house is the key factor for a successful use of an air source heat pump.
I run 3 air to air heat pumps to heat my house, which is quite large, 210m².
Have exterior insulation done except for one wall on the rear.
The unit heating the 50m² living room/kitchen which is fully insulated consumes less energy than the unit in the 12m² room which has one uninsulated wall still, although the unit in the living room/kitchen can produce twice the maximum amount of heat.
The unit in the living room runs cheaper as using the gas boiler, but in the other room it doesn't.
So this shows how important it is to insulate before you go the way of a heat pump.
That rear wall is going to be insulated as well, I just had to stop work because of the weather turning bad.
I would suppose for the house in the video to heat the old part with the gas boiler in the winter, and install a small low temperature air source heat pump for the extension to work with the underfloor heating, this smaller heat pump then can provide the radiators in the old part during the transition period when temperatures are over 7-8°C, and switch to the gas boiler when it is colder. The large radiators will probably deliver enough heat with a 35-40°C supply during the transition period. COP will be a lot better than the less than 2 now.
The "You needing a well insulated house" thing is not true, yet It's banded around everywhere. The heat pump and the heat emitters just need to be sized correctly sized correctly for the heat losses. Granted you will need bigger heat emitters in a poorly insulated room and/or house, but it will work.
Really interesting video. I do think the issue around these installs is lack of knowledge from heating engineers and lack of governance around the grant system. I think roger makes a good point in that the grants are poorly awarded and the guy being interviewed specifying a criteria based on home ages or something makes a lot of sense.
Would it be possible to do a follow up with heatgeek for them to review the system to highlight the mistakes made by the installers so we can all learn even if not changing anything?
we are on it
@@SkillBuilder Sounds like a brilliant video is coming between you both :-)
Yes! This would make a brilliant video.
It was interesting to get a perspective on the long term reliability and maintenance costs; the system is just so complicated. Having said that, the reliability on the simpler air-air units is better; we have a couple of air-air units, and the oldest one is over 10 years old and has never needed any attention other than filter cleaning.
I agree with self-contained air to air units, I am in the process or renovating a new house, and am going to play about with some air to air units
@@marcuswareham1and don't forget with air to air you get the added benefit of air-conditioning for the summer 😊
Lots of ugly fans everywhere.@@nickhardiman2142
I cannot understand why people use air to water HPs. Air to air is cheaper, easier to fit, more efficient, very reliable, less complex. I have a 7 year old system and it works down to -5C.
@@ianchapple1345 Probably because they do have the radiators and piping and don't have ductwork.
Firstly, heat pumps have been round for many years. The first system I was involved with was an air to water system in 1983 so it’s not new technology. Even then, it was known that buffer tanks were necessary so to have one installed now is unbelievable. There’s no reason in this day and age for installers to get it wrong and provide the best advice to customers. Poor selection and poor design really should not be problem. That people have these problems now is down to poor regulation and qualifications of installers. The other thing that amazes me is that new 18:08 houses are being built and they have neither heat pumps or solar PV or solar thermal as a building regulation requirement. We have estates of housing locally with prices up to £600k which don’t have these systems. Amazing!
He so right about the weather in the U.K. versus Finland our cold weather is much damper, indeed my holiday home in the dordogne is much colder than the U.K. in winter but much drier. This morning in the U.K. I put on my aircon unit to heat our kitchen, it’s a cheap one and will work if the outside temperature is above 5°c anything less and it ices up but this morning it was just 1-5°c and it worked without icing but the humidity leval was very low so it didn’t ice up at all. That goes to prove that in cold but low humidity climates these heat pumps are great.
HeatGeek will have a fit when they see this! Is round 3 of the Heatgeek v Skillbuilder coming soon?
How would heat pump geek stop the noise from an LG heat pump? 🤦
@@robmule4647install issue causing heat pump to ice up too early will clog the coil with ice which in turn increases fan noise as air isn't moving through properly.
@@richardc1983 you must all be the same person.... The noise from the fan hitting ice was temporary, it isn't the noise that made the neighbours move bedrooms which is the noise I refer to.
@@robmule4647 what was the noise? I've had the single fan version of the unit you've got about 5 years now and no noise issue.
@@richardc1983 what was the noise? Quite an annoying one by the sounds of it. If you don't believe the guys on camera account why would someone believe yours through a comment?
This story resonates strongly with solar in the US. When they sell you the panels they don't talk, for example, about the extra cost it'll create when replacing the shingles (which everyone needs to do about every 20 years if they don't get shot by hail before that (which can also break the solar panels :-)) After pondering this theme, I concluded I'd need to install them myself, on the ground (can also help with cleaning and hail), to get reasonable benefits.
That's the trouble when you build houses with cardboard. My roof tiles are still going strong after 52 years.
Generally, you are right. It's better to pay more and get longer-lasting stuff. But I'm on the fence about the asphalt shingles. They seem to be cheap to make, light and simple to install. Simplicity has value too. @@David-bi6lf
We don`t get paid if we fit them ourselves in the UK. In fact I think they made it illegal. So I`m breaking the law lol.
It's not illegal. You just notify the DNO what you have done and you need a G98 Inverter these days to be compliant.@@damianbutterworth2434
Most UK houses are tiled or slated and far more robust than shingles. Shingles are only used on garden sheds and the like in the UK. My house still has the original tiles that where fitted when built in 1964 and probably good for another 50 years. Some slated houses are over 100 years old with original Welsh slates still. The planning laws here in the UK are full of Red Tape but still don't stop unscrupulous trades men ripping you off with shoddy work. As they said in the vlog, heat pumps would just not work on rows off our terraced houses.
I have had a heat pump in for ten years. It is backed up with a log burner which is essential in cold weather. One major issue is the competence of the pump manufacturer's technical support that, frankly, do not understand their own installation manual! I could not fault the suppliers of the system, Ice Energy, (sadly no longer in business) who gave excellent advice and technical service.
We are retired, so the slow reaction time of the system is not a problem....we leave it on all the time!
I do have heat pump at home in addition to combi boiler. I bought one of the most efficient one and its still no where close to economical !
The new extension part I used heat pump and old part and hot water most of it on Combi. I just did this way as an experiment.
In the winter, I had the icing issue when it was 4c out side and at that temp and below it becomes extremely inefficient almost 1kw to get 1kw heat. and the noise sometimes can be very annoying the humming noise.
I would say if anyone refurbishing -
1. Do the Pipeworks for heatpump
2. Have a utility room or boiler room with space for future hot water cylinder
3. If no gas available then get the heat pump BUT make sure to check the efficiency at low temperature. This is buried in tech spec but you can find it.
4. Put heat pump in area with good air circulation
5. Keep the gasboiler as long as you can
I do have overseas property where in winter its constantly snow and -10 to -20 and we only have heat pump and it works there fine. The heat pumps there are much better quality efficiency in cold is way much better than the 2nd class junk sold here . Also people know how to fit them properly and the properties are very well insulated.
I'm doing a 16-week course in heat pump installation and its run by a University and the practical side is covered by a heat pump supplier (not manufacturer). The course does not adequately cover insulation and its affect on running costs and we don't actually fit or service a heat pump. We are given reading material followed by questions and answer those questions to get the accreditation. I need the certificate to become a registered installer but the fact is that its about promoting heat pumps instead of providing a reliable heating/hot water solution that is reliable and financially viable. I'm on the best course in the country and I know that its a bit of a scandal but I have to start somewhere.
Who says it is the best course in the country?
So, there is money to be made fitting heat pumps. There is money to be made training people to fit heat pumps. There is money to be made accrediting people who train people to fit heat pumps. What could possibly go wrong???
Look at the heat geeks course. does everything your current one does not.
Snake oil caused by the green goons .Total waste of time and money
Another great refreshingly honest video from the Skill Builder from the true perspective of a user over a decent period after the system has settled in. There are always good an bad points of any technology. If a salesman just emphasizes on the good like the Heat Geek then they obviously have a bias. Fortunately, even the Heat Geek Squad are honest enough to mention that there needs to be better trained installers providing a properly designed system and comprehensive pre-sales advice to any potential customers to ensure those property owners have all the information to weigh up before making an informed decision. Thanks to Roger and John for your great contribution to the construction industry !
really useful video. Not many people have the room for all of the tanks and whatnot that these people have
Very interesting video. We have a 10year old cottage which is well insulated but small. So in theory an ASHP might work. However, as I say the house is compact so I have no idea where we'd put a large water cylinder and all the piping paraphernalia I see on videos of ASHP's. We'd have to re-concrete downstairs to get enough depth for underfloor heating as large radiators are a no go with little rooms and we'd have to have bigger radiators upstairs which my wife isn't keen on. We also live in a small rural village when they voted recently for no street lights, so I'm pretty sure the neighbours will love fan noise 24/7, not. I'm increasingly thinking we'll upgrade our old oil boiler for a modern , more efficient one before they stop us buying one and hopefully that will see us out.
Maybe look at air to air heat pump instead. Cheaper, but no gov incentive. No rads or ufh, no need for cylinder (although provision for hw needed). Also fast response, plus summer air con. Downside? Theoretically need planning permission and blown air can feel to some, a less comfortable form of heating.
All these issues screams install issues to me. Unit icing up too early and coil blocking up will reduce airflow and will increase noise of fans. I have an LG System and mine works great, mine is air to air. The fact all the rads needed upgrading suggests your installer didn't have a clue. Get heat geek and urban plumbers involved to see what's wrong.
Is a system that needa NASA level of design and install an ideal solution for the majority of creaky UK housing?
@@FirstLast-rh9jw No different to installing a boiler which only a gas-safe engineer can do... the problem is no one has done the training properly and you have plumbers installing these heat pumps thinking they are a like-for-like replacements. Common sense says that at 40c flow temp you are not going to get the same heat output on your radiators than you would at 80c flow temp on your rads (what they were designed to do)
@@FirstLast-rh9jw It’s not NASA level engineering. Heat loss calculations and the mass flow calculation together with pipe sizing. It’s about O level standards.
The fact that all the radiators needed updating, but they didn't update any of them confirms they were clueless. A proper design would have revealed the large heat loss from the old part of the property, and the need to increase the size of the radiators (or add more radiators). If this had been done, John could have looked at the size of the radiators needed and decided that he didn't want to devote that much wall space to radiators or considered underfloor heating as an alternative.
Tips for quiet fans:
1 Used hydrodynamic bearings. They are silent and don't wear out.
2 Use larger fans but don't run them so fast. In my experience commercial fans often spin so fast they create turbulence which is basically converting the energy into a load of noise and reducing performance. For an AC fan you can use a variable frequency drive (VFD). Just knock it back about 10% and you lose little in the way of airflow but it will run much quieter.
3 The blades of a fan can be shaped such that they create a vortex airflow. The ones I have, have a little bit missing on the tips of the blades. They are computer designed and very smart.
The alternative is to replace the fans with underground pipes to suck in the heat from the ground. The temperature underground is out of phase with the temperature at the surface. At a distance of 8m you are 180 degrees out of phase, so summer is winter and winter is summer. This is ideally where you want your pipes.
Generally speaking - use physics to solve your problems.
Looks like every solution costs thousands, involves change, stress, building changes...
@@FirstLast-rh9jw I'll tell you what it looks like from my point of view. These British firms and workmen do not know what they are doing. They are poorly educated in the sciences and this is why everything fails so badly. This is why everything costs so much. The high tech super quiet fans i got hold of which work as described above were produced by a German firm. The Germans are much better engineers. It does not cost any more. It's a matter of designing it correctly in the fist place.
Or, get a nice modern condensing boiler...
Most probably, the fan knocking on the ice build up has wreaked the it.
Nothing wrong with the fans fitted to those LG Heatpumps, they are vfd driven, blades are designed for efficiency and low noise. They get noisy when the coil freezes up disrupting the airflow. System design and application is the issue here.
Well, i am.pleased i watched this as it has opened my eyes to issues that may arise . I was looking at a heat pump , i still am.but will need to do a lot more research and get very professional advice
I would contact Heat Geeks
Where I live and probably throughout the country, most people have dumped their plastic Conservatories that were all the rage a few decades ago and have replaced them with proper brick or block extensions with double skinned walls and roofs. Gone then are the days of those glass houses too hot to use in the Summer and freezing cold in the Winter unless heated/air conditioned at great running costs.
I decided last year to go on a voyage of discovery and install my own heat pump. Although i'm happy with it now it took some time to work out the kink's and nuances. For me the key part of the process is the install, i found that just the controller on its own can give you a difference of 1-1.5 COP. i think heat pumps are good, but much like EV'S you cant just get in and drive!
^-- Definitely true, just kinks and nuances to 'work out' not a bot no way.
Wish I was!
Do you typically run separate dehumidification in the uk? With heat pumps or not? (I’m in the American south).
@@phillipcottingham1489 your wish was granted it seems
@@josbc448 typically no, humidity doesn't tend to be too much of an issue in the uk
We have been using the LG heat pump for the past two years successfully now and I totally agree that you need to build your house around the system not the system around your house. We have finished the house in 2020 with very efficient building materials and 15cm polistyren around the walls, floors, roof etc. considering it was build in Eastern Europe. The moisture in the air is more heat pump friendly but the temps go much deeper below zero. We have spent about £9k for the system fitted in 50sq meeters detached house heat pump where the house is sitting in the middle of nowhere with no other option for source of heat. If I had a choice I would get the gas boiler instead 100%.
I had a Bosh ground source heat-pump system that was too complicated for its own good and never seemed to generate enough heat. I moved to a property with a 1997 Worcester oil fired boiler. It's not condensing but is certainly able to generate enough heat and is very reliable.
ha, do you pronounce Worcester as "Woster"? I know a couple of places by that name and the pronunciation was startling.
Time to get Heat Geek in to recover the situation.
Yeah everyone can just get the heat pump geek superhero round, what's the problem 🤣
Or pick a heat geek off of our map which has received the training necessary… there may be a wait mind..
The oil and gas companies thank you for your contribution to their huge profits.
How do you generate electricity?
@@SkillBuilder A mixture of renewable and fossil fuels, that is gradually moving towards 100% renewables. If you heat your home with electricity, you are plugged into this increasingly sustainable energy supply. If you stay on gas, you are consuming a dwindling resource and polluting the air as well.
Thx Roger. We use a low temp Mini-split that actually puts out some heat down to -22F, although it drops from its rated btus below -5F. Worked great until a lightning strike 2 weeks ago. Waiting on 2 boards to be replaced.
Good interview. For balance it might be useful to speak to someone in a similar sized/age house with a heat pump, who is happy with their system.
I am happy to speak to anyone. We don't need to set parameters. If there are good stories out there let's hear them
@@SkillBuilder Top man Roge. I suspect that this guy was a bit of an early adopting pioneer and his system is perhaps not particularly well designed and commissioned. Would be good to hear some other interviews on this (both good and bad).
Hybrid is exactly my issue, house is 120 years old with over 3000 square foot of area and high ceilings, so I accept it can eat heat like a beast! However I have already had the whole house up and down fully under floor heating fitted, so thought an ideal match for a heat pump. I could run the whole system at 40 degrees right out of the box... Only the heat calculations say I need a heat pump capable of outputting 17Kw on the coldest day -2C outside to maintain +20C inside (or something similar) Now I do not want to go three phase and all that messing about with industrial grade units, and forget finding a heat pump on single phase that will crank that out on a cold day. Naturally I thought I will just keep my oil boiler for when it is really cold... but oh no, gonna cost you to go that route... quotes are currently £18K+ with no grant. They should support hybrid systems, as I estimate the heat pump would do 95% of all the heating requirements even if a lower spec unit was fitted. Oil is a ball ache to get delivered on time and the price fluctuates wildly... so who is going to choose that if they can help it?
Why can't you use a normal electricity heater for the 5% of days you need more than just the heat pump
What’s to stop you having the boiler removed put to one side the pipes capped off with push fit and then reinstalled for a few hundred pounds? Tbh having a hybrid system sounds nice but you are still stuck with the standing charge which now costs as much as it used to for heating consumption. It’s all a mess in my opinion.
@@davideyres955 its oil so there is no standing charge. The problem is the heat pump installers are not legally allowed to install and commission a grant based system if it cannot cope with the heat calcs
@@kaya051285 To be honest I can, the home already has 8 other A/C heat pumps which do heat (but were primarily installed for cooling in the summer) however the installers are “not allowed” to let you have an under powered main (air to water) system fitted… rules are rules apparently!
17kw at a COP of 3 (haha) should only require 6kw = 25A, well within the capabilities of most single phase domestic installations.
Around 18:05 " they're ideologically driven" Yep, couldn't agree more. We'll only make progress when it's recognised that the solutions aren't binary, aren't simple black and white. Unfortunately dogma drives too much of chosed directions. As your guest correctly pointed out identifying what would work best for a given property scenario and then deploying it would almost certainly yield much better aggegrate outcomes than the one size fits all mentality which presently only allows focus on certain options ie heatpumps. Not hating on heatpumps, I'm planning a renovation at the moment and will have a h/p on the short list but am aiming for fabric first then to see what will best service the resultant thermal requirements.
Hopefully one day they’ll be able to make a neat little box that fits into the corner of your kitchen, that makes hardly any noise, not huge amounts of skill needed to fit it, relatively easy to maintain and easy to replace if needed and takes up no space in your garden. We can all dream, guys.
There is actually a bit of a twist in the boiler upgrde scheme. Here's a real life example. Property requires 18kw heat pump which will mean 2 outdoor units. Cost £15-16k. If single unit but £20-£22k for two outdoor units. You remove the gas boiler but keep it in storage. Get one heat pump installed with £7500 grant - cost to customer £7-£8k. Then once voucher redeemed reinstall the gas boiler /integrate in to hybrid system- cost prob £600. OFGEM will not stop you putting in a boiler post heat pump install ie it won't invalidate your grant.
Interesting, no one uses buffer tanks in Canada. Defrost works just fine. Are most heat pumps sold in the UK not rated for -25/-30c ? Most newer heat pumps in canada are 100% efficient to -15c to -20c. It's mandatory in Canada to have secondary heat or your house won't be insurable... I don't know why the UK is forcing people to ditch their primary heat.....
The problem is that the people making these politcal decision are having their ears bent by people who are in the business of selling heat pumps. It has always been this way in the U.K. Truth is not a currency they deal in
@SkillBuilder Here we have to go through an energy assessment program and receive grants for any/everything we update which includes windows, insulation, doors, solar, hot water tanks etc etc. The more you update the grant recieved is compounded. You can easily get $20,000+ in grants. options for an interest free loan for those who need it. The current grant you'll get $8,000 if you install 3 heat pumps which works out covering the cost of 2/3 heat pumps. For low income earners below $75,000 they received a free heat pump, no strings attached.
@@marcgallant5270 Your electricity rate per kWh is ridiculously cheap - and stabe - too?
11.5kw/h and super stable@@martyndavies1482
Buffer tanks are only needed if you have a mixture of emitters with widely differing flow rates. If the system is designs so that the flow rates in different parts of the system are fairly similar, you don''t need a buffer tank at all (HeatGeek has a video on this). But you might need a volumiser, which is sometimes incorrectly called a buffer tank, if there is not enough water in the system.
At last a non hysterical review of the 'benefits' of heat pumps versus a gas boiler. Your discussion answered all my questions such as the house being empty all day then coming home at 7 o'clock on a cold evening. Gas heating on and in minutes the rads are warm and within 30 minutes the house is warm. I cam home tonight (from the pub! at 8 and now at 9.30 I'm going to switch the heating off. Cost on my smart meter £1.85. I wonder how your friend at Heat Geek will react to this interview!!
But a heat pump would keep the house warm all day for the same cost, and avoid the thermal shock to the heat source, pipes and emitters. You are stuck in a traditional mindset, and can't cope if things work differently to how you are used to them working.
@@tlangdon12 Yes but it doesn't cost the same. The cost of the heat pump gear and installation is enormous, not to mention no guarantee of anything. Plus all the hassle and stress. Makes no sense for the vast majority of people. Not to mention the noise
@@JC-yc2sz People who bought central heating systems in the 1960s said the same thing - a central system to heat your entire home and your hot water is much more expensive than coal to have a fire in one room for heat the water for a bath, and yet here we are.
@@tlangdon12 False comparison and you must know that. People are religious in their adherence to these eco devices. It is a religion and they can't be argued with. If the carbon/global warming ideology were false nobody would want to change to these ridiculous noisy machines that invariably don't work. There's no other explanation. It's all solutions to manufactured problems
Not mentioned in the video from what I saw and we use here in North Carolina USA is the smart thermostat. If the temperature on the thermostat is more than 2 degree from where you set it, the back up heat comes on automatically. Most heat pumps here seem to have back up heat built right into the heat pump unit. ( Like what was mentioned in the video, heat pumps seem to be good at maintaining temperature, but not good at recovery, this is where the smart thermostat comes in for us ) Stay warm my friend over in the UK.
Hi interesting video, main lesson is get the right installer' do the heat calcs and design it to run at a 35 degree flow temperature. We have had our heat pump 2 years with a grant from the old RHI scheme but it still cost us plenty! That said we have since done a massive amount of insulation work walls, floor and roof on what was an old solid wall 3/4 bed semi. Our heat pump is now oversized for the house ( 13KW Grant Aerona3 ) but ticks over and runs efficiently with a low flow temperature. We are saving money now even with high unit prices for electricity compared to the gas combi we had which pre insulation would not heat the house and had no weather compensation. The fan noise could also be due to damage when it froze up. New bearings and cleaning the fan blades might help. ours is mounted on a flat kitchen roof and not intrusive, standing at the top of the garden next doors combi boiler makes as much noise and their tumble dryer is even noisier.... Will be interested to see how well the Octopus heat pumps work.
Really great video guys. The thing that really struck me is the amount of money and complexity involved in this heating system - solar, tanks, rads, heat pump, underfloor heating, boiler, valves, etc.All just to heat up some water! Definitely a hobby.
And they didn’t even talk about battery storage which will be an integral part of this in the future…