Is a Heat Pump Cheaper to Run Than a Gas Boiler?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 พ.ค. 2024
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COP (Coefficient of Performance) and SCOP (Seasonal Coefficient of Performance) are terms used in heating, cooling, and refrigeration systems, such as air conditioners and heat pumps.
They are important because they measure the efficiency of these systems, indicating how effectively they use energy to heat or cool a space.
COP - Coefficient of Performance: This ratio compares the amount of heating or cooling a device provides to the amount of electrical energy consumed. Essentially, it tells you how many units of heat or cooling are produced for every unit of energy consumed.
A higher COP means the device is more efficient, delivering more heating or cooling for the same energy.
For instance, a heat pump with a COP of 3 produces three units of heat for every unit of electricity it consumes.
SCOP - Seasonal Coefficient of Performance: This is an extension of COP that measures a system's efficiency over a season, typically accounting for various temperatures and operational conditions throughout that season.
SCOP gives a more realistic and comprehensive picture of a device's performance over time rather than just at a specific test condition. It's essential for devices like heat pumps that operate in different modes and under varying external temperatures throughout the year.
COP and SCOP are crucial for consumers and businesses because they directly impact energy consumption and operating costs. Higher COP and SCOP values indicate more energy-efficient devices, which can significantly save energy bills and reduce environmental impact by lowering carbon emissions.
Additionally, in many regions, regulations and incentives are tied to these metrics to encourage the adoption of more efficient technology.
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Microgeneration Certification Scheme (MCS) transfer to MCS Service Company
www.gov.uk/government/publica...
MCS Standards Organisation
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Thanks to everybody who contributed to this series.
🔥 All the @HeatGeeks
www.heatgeek.com
@VaillantUK
www.vaillant.co.uk
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CHAPTERS
00:00 Intro
03:24 Happy Wife
06:14 Comfortable Heat
08:27 John's Advice
11:05 Heat Geeks Assemble
14:44 House Size
18:28 The Data
22:26 Savings
26:55 Positively Different
30:19 League Table
33:25 Final Thoughts
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#heatpump #heatgeeks #heating
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Adam was so patient. His confidence in his skill and knowledge spoke a thousand words. Well done Heat Geek.
Thanks again for the collaboration SB!
Great to see it still running at 520% efficiency for the last 30 days as anyone can see by following the link.
Heat geek guarentee the efficiency due to our belief in the ability of small family run businesses putting their heart and soul in to their work, with a bit of help from our training. This has resulted in an average SCOP across our installations of 4.44 to date.
Here’s to the next!
you actually don't know the efficiency. You only can measure electricity spent.
@@hrvojelasic5794 yes we do. It’s a very simple equation that only requires 3 sensors. Watch our mass flow rate video on how.
@@hrvojelasic5794there’s a sensor that measure the heat produced, they use metering grade sensors, such as the ones you have on communal heat schemes so they are very accurate as they are used for billing.
@@HeatGeek You need to measure the entering/leaving water flow temperature on the HP, the mass flow of water through the HP, and the electricity input on the HP. This is the only correct way. If you do that good. First three inputs you get heating capacity q=mXcpXdt and divide that by the electricity input and you get COP.I didn't watch your video though.
@@hrvojelasic5794 yes.. very simple and very standard. We do this and it’s supplied and verified by a 3rd party.
I had a heat pump installed under the old gas boiler replacement scheme. The first year it was expensive but not a big problem but one room was struggling to make temp. After the original installers could not find fault I found a heat geek from the website and after a one hour visit the controls were adjusted and a blending valve turned off the system has wor,ed like a dream all winter with much smaller bills and all rooms working. I cannot speak more highly about the heat geek and skill builder videos.
What temp is your dhw cylinder set to ?
1st Law of Thermodynamics... it will always be scrap.
Even though Roger has been critical of heat pumps in the past, it's great to see him bring in people who know about them, shows they can be good etc as long as it's done right. The scare mongering around heat pumps need to end and this level headed showcase has been great
They had about 12 people doing the instal and probably 3 or 4 constantly monitoring it to make sure it works. Do yo think the average Joe is going to get that standard of care for the price of a gas installation?
@@user-yh7un3sz7v because they corrected an existing bad install which is far more work because it's not just about fitting new stuff, it's debugging the new issues created. Plus it gets the job done faster.
I'm getting quotes right now and been quoted £3, 500 on average after the tax break and they all done full surveys and install plans
@@user-yh7un3sz7v They had more people in to do the install because it sped up the installation. It's possible to get the same results with fewer people if the work can be done over a longer period of time.
I think it's been informative and really cool to see Adam & co put their money where their mouth is. They've shown that the installs can work if the installer knows their onions.
Roger on the other hand has been in the building trade long enough to recognise perverse incentives when he sees them. One of Roger's main points is correct: the government is throwing money at this in a stupid way. If folk like Adam were in charge of the regulation and certification so that customers had comeback on bad installs, and we had tens of thousands of well-trained heat geeks to do the work, it would be much plainer sailing.
Take my mate who bought a new build family home with 3 bedrooms -- it's a decent size but not a mansion. A few years down the line, he wants to replace the gas boiler with a heat pump because he already has solar panels and isn't satisfied with the way the boiler is set up. He gets a quote from two local firms.
One wants to put a very high powered unit in and is not very willing to answer questions etc.
The other guy specs something that he knows to be more reasonable, answers questions and also figures out that radiators in one of the bedrooms is mis-sized and the thermostat isn't working correctly. Second guy gets the gig and does a great job, my friend is happy with it. I sincerely doubt he'd have got the same result with the other company.
If your chance of a good install is 50/50 and there's no comeback on a bad one, we're miles off doing this on a national scale.
Just take the damn vaccine, the government says it’s ok. All the top medical boffins say it’s ok. After watching the programs and news on TV I am convinced it is ok. Oh, sorry this is a heat pump conversation, so who do I blame if it all goes wrong in 3 years?
The fact of the matter is without top quality insulation throughout you won’t benefit from the flaming things.
Adam sitting very patiently waiting for the data to do all the talking 😂 smashed it heat geeks!
Looks great but you really need data from December - February before making that judgement in my opinion 😉
How much did he pay for that system 🙈😳🤔
@@Doug.... it's in the video, somewhere in the 2nd half
with help from a little bit of manipulation of the math
@@eurovisie2010 Yes euro. I certainly did catch that point. 😂 I should have written it as " And he paid HOW much to get slightly cheaper bills". How many normal people can afford that sort of outlay???. Very informative video for sure but like electric cars its all pie in the sky.
Rooftop Solar, Inductioncooking, HT Heatpump. No Gas. Makes a lot of Money. Power from the Sun, heat from the Air. COP 4. Works for 12 years now.❤👍
Unless someone in the house has a pacemaker. Then ceramic hob instead of induction, but the rest is still good!
If you use an electric cooker appliance it's more efficient than induction hob because the heating element is internal and no heat is wasted
@@manolis1080 I have Electric Cooker, Microwave, Airfryer and Inductioncooking 👍
@@Ben-gm9lo 👍 Thank You.
Struggled to do my scrambled eggs on induction hob.
A briliant set of films.Thanks to Heet Geek Skill Builder and the gentleman who allowed us into his home.Entertaining and thought provoking.
And the conclusion is that yes, heat pumps can be great, but you need a very competent installer. How many are there in the country and how do you separate them from everyone else? The argument should never have been, "Do they work?" It should always have been, "How do I guarantee finding a (local) competent installer capable to advise and fit a heatpump system well, with the necessary aftercare?" A successfully installed heatpump system can only be achieved with more competence, care and education on the part of the installer compared to a traditional boiler system (and sufficient space). That is the issue; competence and quality of service, and that costs.
I’m a heating engineer for the last 25 years and I think you may have started to convert me to the idea of heat pumps
Thanks for the great videos
Big ugly box on side of wall with noise issues.
@@johnchoice1371??
@@johnchoice1371 I suggest you watch the previous video on the noise. I’d have to say it’s better looking that the cabinet my outside boiler is in.
@@johnchoice1371 get a divorce then
@@johnchoice1371
My HP isn't noisy at all, if yours is then it needs seeing to.
Roger. Ive been following this poor guys saga from the beginning. I love what you said about the space under the kitchen cabinets. Thinking outside the box that. 👍👍👍
This is a brilliant series of videos. Really enjoyed the journey. Glad to see John has a functioning, efficient system and a comfortable home now. It's no doubt been a stressful and expensive few years for him and the good lady. All the best and hopefully we get another follow up video at some point.
I was previously rude to you SB and I'd like to apologise, I'm glad Adam reached out to you and ha shown you the positives of heat pumps and how to design them.
Negatives: Big ugly box, noise issues, trashing a good , working gas boiler.
@@johnchoice1371this guy's on a rampage in the comments😅.
@@mikeypc3592 Old school gas engineer I'd guess. Sad really 😔😆
@@armoris66what he's saying is true tho,
Gas boilers are cheap to buy & very cheap to run, instant heat & instant hot water, np need for storage tanks or oversize pipework & radiators
@@johnchoice1371 Our neighbour's oil boiler is noisy, while our heat pump is essentially silent. It's about the same physical size as an external oil boiler too.
I moved from the UK to Finland 20 years ago. I'm amazed at how our radiators never get hot like my radiators in the UK but we are always at 23°C room temp. They feel warm (but only at the top) when it's minus 20 C outside. Insulation is great. Our building is moving away from multifuel district heating to ground source heat pumps with Solar panels on the roof as of next winter. Also our powered ventilation is going to start heat recovery so the warm air will no longer be vented. It will last 20-25 years and will repay the loan taken within the first 7 years. After that we will be quids (euros) in for the next 15 years
BuT tHEy Don'T WoRk whEN itS coLD OutSiDe 🤣 More people need to realise that heat pumps have been in use in Scandanavia for over 30 years.
@@egocd
And in many commercial buildings in UK for just as long, UK domestic market is behind rest of world.
@@_Dougaldog To be fair, in the past the sums didn't add up for heat pumps for a single house.
In Finland, more people live in blocks of flats. The underground work for the heat pumps is done at the same time as the foundations are laid. Typically, Finnish apartment residents have free hot water (you get a bill if you abuse this) and free heating.
@@skasteve6528 I assure you we don't get free hot water! Everything is paid for, albeit that it is not metered at the household level. Collectively the residents pay for their water whether it is cold or heated.
@@hauskalainen You are quite right. The cost is included in the rent in many (but not all appartment rentals), it isn't actually free.
Damm Roger, Adam and John for ruining my day because I have to watch it before doing anything else and damn them again for compelling me to waste time writing to say how good it is.
Congrats to everyone for a balanced and grounded discussion - plenty of food for thought.
They are absolutely correct about searching for a company who has well trained fitters before you consider having a heat pump.
what a fantastic journey from youtube beef right through to diagnosis and science behind the whole system. well done to all parties, I have learnt a lot from this
I want to see how these work with a standard semi-detached house from say the 1930's. Not to mention a terraced house!
Space for all the gear, what would need doing with pipe work, radiator replacement etc. etc. etc.
Getting one installed in a ~1930s semi-detached house in about a month, will be able to say if I've made a big mistake or not in 6 or 7 months.
Do you want to search for urban plumbing by szymon cyban. He's got a couple of videos of London terraces with solid walls where they are working perfectly.
More trouble than it's worth!
@@JoshuaStringfellow1 Best of luck with it. I am in a similar situation with age and type of house but just had new gas boiler fitted so won't be converting anytime soon.
@@JoshuaStringfellow1 If it turns out to be a mistake, it'll be an expensive one.
Great collab. Loved watching this all the way through, great stuff!
Adam explains things so well - he simplifies things, which really helps to learn about this "new" heat pump technology (the Scandinavians have been using heat pumps for decades!).
For a true comparison it would be interesting to compare apples with apples, i.e. a gas boiler system with ASHP, both with similar standards of insulation and weather compensated to really compare like for like. A few issues, they use gas for cooking so the standing charge saving is a non starter unless the cook with electricity in which case the electricity cost would rise. Without the grant and favourable electricity rates currently offered for ASHP heated houses, the payback period would be significantly longer, so making it much less realistic an option for many, particularly if you aren’t in your house for life and plan on moving. The original install was circa £16k, heat geek suggested £20k, I’m guessing that the cost of the refit was significantly more than £20k if all hours were charged and not done for promotional reasons.
I’m guessing, but i imagine that the greater percentage saving comes from upgrading the insulation, windows, draught proofing and weather compensation than from the heat source itself, ASHP or new gas boiler. I admit i am biased because i don’t believe the cult of saving carbon, so that factor would never enter my thinking, albeit that i accept the government have already and will increase taxes to manipulate the carbon net zero ponzi schemes. I’m open minded to any heating system though and my son is a heating engineer, fitting ASHP on new build schemes and gas boilers
Well, to get a reasonable comparison, you can take the amount of heat this install has produced and then multiply it so that you calculate with an efficency of 90-95%. Then you would have the gas consumption. And then it's just about comparing the rates of gas vs. electricity. 95% efficiency is about the maximum you can expect from a boiler. But most installs are way below that due to bad setup and configuration.
Also if you don't go for name brand heatpumps, you can get monoblocks with the same power as in this installation for like 1/3rd the cost.
As smart and invested as John seems to be, I am surprised that he hadn't done the ceiling insulation first. I am extremely pleased to see that the system is now working for them. Well done Heat Geeks, John and SB.
Hi - yes, a very good point. But when the EPC was done, the house came up to scratch, so I hadn't realised there was more to do. That become more apparent as the years wore on.....
@@hm21370 Thanks for the reply, John. I am really pleased that you did get it sorted and are still married 😀 Soon the bad taste from the previous installation will recede and you can bathe in both the literal and figurative "Warm Glow" not to mention reap the financial savings as well. Greetings from a heatpump user in New Zealand.
Maybe if they had all the insulation done they wouldn't have needed an expensive heat pump!!
Well done for the collaboration. It shows talking to each other is always the best way.
I have enjoyed watching this series of videos. Thanks for always coming back with feedback... The heat geeks are real pros
HGeek clearly a super decent honourable outfit 👍
Always nice to see Glyn Hudson on the leader board with 4.7 scop on his self install!
and he lives in old terrace house with solid walls and hence minimal insulation. It highlights that the problem is the rogue installers and not the equipment. th-cam.com/video/kkNx2oSO-S4/w-d-xo.html
@@stamfordmeetup Absolutely! This video also highlights that too. It's a shame the chap had to deal with the run around.
@@dorsetengineering ah right, so potential gains to be had there too. From watching his video the heat loss modelling seemed to be the key to it all?
@@dorsetengineering Big rads, low flow temp, so I believe?
Skeptical about SCOP of estim 4.5 from 19'40" onwards because the chart records that flow to DHW is only 50.8°C. Four problems here:
1. The hot water cylinder setpoint is probably 43° +/- 4°C. Oops! There's no Legionella cycle of 60°C for an hour a day. John & sensible, gas-loving wife are unwittingly in mortal danger of respiratory infection according to the corrupt HSE anyway. (Actually I'd agree with Heat Geeks about skipping Legionella heating).
2. Dhw loading will only kick in when sensor is at 39°C so John's teeth will be gnattering under the shower because he won't achieve a comfortable 38°C at the actual shower head. New mixer designs are ruined with an internal cold bypass so as to meet the ridiculous TMV regulations. Mixer manuals specify a hot supply of 10K above the safety-button temperature (yes, that one that was painstakingly adjusted by the patient and well-trained "commissioning" plumber). John's shower actually requires dhw setpoint of 52° +/-4°C and the heatpump must therefore load it with a flow temperature that rises to at least 60°C. How's your COP doing in January now?
3. British air source heat pumps suffer from our moderate & damp British Island air. You need some ice in your water & lemon? Just scrape it off your ashp evaporator. On many days this ice has to melted off REVERSING your heat pump and shoving warmth to the OUTSIDE of your home. Costs 40p/kWh maybe? Did John notice that the "defrost cycle" is not mentioned in the glossy sales brochure ??
4. Getting 1kW of electrical energy in your home requires around 3kW fuel energy from gas, coal, or wood pellets in the power station, because of combustion, steam and transmission losses. So now your heat pump's true efficiency is only 1.5 (ie. scop of 4.5/3). Without all the home insulation measures and the Heat Geeks' help, your heat pump's true efficiency will plummet from 1.5 to below 0.9. Then you might as well have stuck with a gas boiler and produce three times less CO2 for the environment every year. Sorry XR, we really thought heat pumps would reverse Climate Boiling.
What's the answer? Whatever the Government nudge or force you to do, do the opposite.
Big thanks to John for letting us in on this saga. It's a great example of the benefits of this type of heating system, but also how it can go wrong, and hopefully will help people to make the right choices for their own situations.
Great series with a satisfying ending. Would also be interesting to compare maintenance costs for gas vs heatpump over that period.
We just need a lot more heat geeks
Coming soon!
Love it!! Such great publicity. ❤
Well done everyone for the input to this collaboration. I can only dream of that kind of COP. My system has higher COP (3) running the Mixergy than our heating! (2.5)
For older buildings vacuum glass is great. It allows you to retrofit into the existing frames a glass with an U value of less than 1. Even better than triple glassing for Benglass for example with U=0.4W/m2K. We are doing a retrofit of a listed building in Holland right now and we do have to ask for permits but it should be approved, and we can definitely not have to be cold.
Now that small water heater is very interesting if it can fit into the space where my combi boiler was I would be very interested
I'd love this but honestly the amount of highly skilled people needed to sort this all out is just beyond us regular folk. Indeed, what would be the labour cost of all those 'Heat Geek' engineers required for this particular installation?
The science and engineering is fascinating and clearly it can all work but I don't think it can be replicated for us regular folk. The skills are not out there in the numbers needed and even in this case, with all the knowledgeable pre-work (and previous efforts and results all noted), the actual cost of the final skills & labour required in this example looks to be extreme. I'd sign-up in a heartbeat if this massive team was available to me at an affordable price. However, skilled people do not work for peanuts (nor should they, their enhanced skills have to be rewarded) - even if you could find them.
It takes 2 skilled people about 2 oe 3 days to install a heatpump in a regular property. I believe they got all these chaps in to do it in less than a day. It was more for the video than anything. You absolutely do not need this number of people.
Weve trained 2k heatgeek so far and are massively ramping up this year
You just need one person who knows what they’re doing.
@@egocd So how come the cost (before grant) is £20k? £5k per man day? Clearly the kit must be pretty pricey at the moment.
An excellent video, gives a great insight and perspective of a heat pump system. I live off the Gas grid and rely on multiple sources of heat to warm our 100 year old + house. We have a pellet stove, an oil Rayburn, open fires and a multi fuel stove ! we hardly have the CH on.
I agree with Rodger, with the perfect scenario a heat pump will be excellent, however for some folks it just wouldn’t work.
Amazing job Roger, this is a well applied scrutiny in a civilised manner, we need more of this from everyone!
Spend £20,000 to save £1,100 a year is not a true comparison. As you need to compare the cost of an original installation (say in new builds). Retrofitting say if you gas boiler needs replacing. That £20K for £1.1K saving gives a return (not accounting for inflation) over 18 years. Of course the technology in that install won’t last 18 years. So you won’t actually get that return. I think the comparison with two new builds same house design one with a gas boiler and one with a heat pump, is the only way to get a true comparison. You will see the impact in terms of original instal costs, running costs, and how the technology impacts the space within the House.
The more relevant comparison would be replacing a faulty boiler with a new one vs. installing a heatpump. For new buildings, it's even more in favor of a heatpump.
@@Felix-st2ueyou are correct due to the insulation standards required for the heat pump to provide the required heating, and of course the extra cost in doing so, driving new house prices up 🤔 now imagine the same comparison in the 80-90% of existing homes which don’t have the same built in insulation 😉
@@chrisellis1232 As can be seen in this video it's not the heatpump that is necessarily requiring higher insulation standards. They would also work with less insulated buildings provided the heated surfaces are big enough. However better insulation obviously reduces the required amount of energy for heating. But that's completely independent of the actual heat source.
Very true, as soon as the system has paid for itself it's time to upgrade negating the financial benefit. And remember that if your household goes out to work every day like most people then the savings are far less as a heat pump necessitates having the heating on constantly as it can take days to heat up a house. If the government ever take away the grant then it would make zero financial sense to get a heat pump.
@@ridethelakespeople spend their money how they want. If someone feels a heat pump is beneficial to them, financially or otherwise, then that's up to them. No-one's asking you to contribute and you're not being forced to buy one.
Here in Iceland we use geothermal underfloor heating to keep the rooms at a constant 22°C. Whilst it's not a heat pump, it concurs with what you were saying about a constant background heating is much better than the Yo-Yo heating method of gas boilers
I have a gas boiler and keep a constant temperature, it’s not a problem for a gas boiler to maintain a constant temperature . People do Yo-Yo to save money.
@@frankief7111 "People do Yo-Yo to save money." - Or because they had no idea there was another way. I've had gas combi heating for almost 30 years in my house, and no-one has ever said I can run my boiler in any other way than flat out, with the rads getting scalding hot before cooling off again. I'd much prefer a constant heat - especially at the transition in & out of summer, when the house is either too hot or too cold, and rarely "just right".
Finally some sense talked and whilst not in the market for getting rid of our gas boiler heating just yet, it gives me hope for the future.
Really enjoyed these videos guys, excellent
Insulation done. 9KW of PV, full house MVHR, 16 KW of battery storage. Next month the ASHP. Goodbye gas. The 12 year journey is nearly complete.
Great set of videos.
look up defrost cycle before ashp
Full cost of what you've had fitted/fitting!!??
A small mortgage may cover the cost
@@pauldavies7251Probably getting a 1000£/year cheaper to install though!
Me again! I have never had gas CH/HW as I am off the gas grid. My old solid fuel CH/HW was decommissioned when I had ASHP CH/HW installed on a Scottish Gov. 100% grant. Since I do not have any other form of heating to fall back on - which Skill Builder seems a tad fixated on, i.e., gas - I am 100% dependent on my heat pump system. Yet on the NW coast of Scotland, where winter is longer if not actually much colder than the south of England (Gulf Stream/maritime effect), my heat pump is just brilliant, the house is very cosy, I have no complaints at all. Yet in this video, SB dude seems to want 'back up', 'just in case'. Why? I have never been cold in the two years since my ASHP was fitted, and I spend on electricity - and I'm serious - less than 40% of what I formerly did on coal and wood. If I had gas heating I wouldn't need or even want a back up, so why so with a heat pump system?
yours is a good case for a heat pump. The weaknesses you face are: creating nuclear waste, susceptibility to either blackouts or disconnection by the thought police via your smart meter. Your solid fuel gave you fuel independence - perhaps you might have been able to double its efficiency?
Incredible job all involved.
Great video and a highly impressive result on the revamped system. Its quite fun to see the arguments against heat pumps. "Oh well why dont you try fitting one to an igloo in the middle of the arctic circle and comes back tk me" 😂
Don’t even get me started on the issues trying to run a heat pump efficiently on the moon, absolute nightmare mate
@@ArnoldCommentator scrap the whole tech I say.
Great it sounds grand, I still prefer a wood burner,Simples.
Great video Roger many thanks bud.
wood burners destroy the planet
That’s the dinosaur solution - dirty, polluting and not sustainable
sustainable, low outlay, not much to go wrong, cheap to maintain , works without electricity , and if necessary not impossible to find fuel !
@@stamfordmeetup No, they don't. Asteroids destroy planets. Exploding stars destroy planets. Vogons destroy planets. Wood burners are almost entirely carbon neutral, the main problem with them is the soot/ash they produce is toxic in high concentrations, and if all 7bn human beings used wood burners, there'd be a) no wood left, and b) smogs like you've never seen before.
Great video series, I am on board with everything up until the upfront installation cost and it's a shame it was glossed over in all videos here. £20k (£13.5k with grant) for an installation is insane, I have been quoted £3.5k from octopus energy which is easier to stomach but still struggle to understand how they can get away with charging £11k. 5 years ago we had a combi replaced and all radiators for just over £2k all in. I appreciate the savings generated but upfront costs are what most people will base their decision on!
True, plus factoring in your ROI. There's also a lot more to go wrong compared to a combi.
How is there more to go wrong in a heatpump than a gas boiler. Their a lot more simple really.
I think this comment needs to be bumped to the top for an answer.
I think the 20k quote was because John boys gaff is massive
Really enjoyed this real life problem before and after videos.
Looking at moving house and thinking about buying one that needs new heating and this is giving more confidence in a heat pump!
Don’t do it
Lovely to listen to, yet... the UK has had an "unusually" mild winter (again!!!). In the UK we are positioned geographically between the Arctic and the Sahara, the Northern Atlantic Ocean and the Eurasian continental mass. Depending upon global climatic variations, our weather can be dependent on prolonged Zonal conditions - basically air flow from similar latitudes, roughly East and West, or Meridional - from similar longitudes, roughly North and South. These highly unpredictable variations result in phenomena such as "The Beast from The East", "Spanish Plumes", and "blocking Highs". April 2024's continuing chill results from a northerly Atlantic High drawing down polar air from Scandinavia over the UK. Had this Meridional airflow occurred in midwinter, instead of the mild, wet Zonal weather we had from the mid-Atlantic, I'm not sure this video would have sounded so positive.
Anything wrong with just adjusting the radiator flow temperature between 34 to 45°C as I do with our Vaillant LPG condensing combi? Easily modified to maintain 24/7 20°C in every room with adjustment to radiator valves. 3 bed semi in a rural situation, cavity and a bit of loft insulation. £1000/year cost.
amazing. well done. Could weather comp take over yourntweaking though? We added it to our Vaillant 618.
@@advance-heating my only question, why did it take so long? Wasn't there any experts, scientific folk working for the boiler manufacturers who years ago should have said, bigger radiators, cooler radiator flows adjusted automatically to maintain internal ambient temperatures. Why did installers fit the wrong sized radiators, site the thermostats in the wrong positions, and set the flow temperature to 70C? Imagine how much CO2 we've wasted, how much ££££££s the energy suppliers and gas companies have made.
@@MadAsBagOfMonkeys love yr observations. Spot on. Boiler makers to this day disguise the advice given in their own manuals which craftily guide the installers to keep their boiler well OUT of condensing mode. Acidic condensate inside HExs are a real drag on warranty claims. Eg. Grant Thornton oil "condenser" warns not to set the return temp below 52°C. Swindlers! The FLOW should be set as far below 50° as possible. ha ha
Great vid and explanations.
I keep tossing between the comfort idea. I accept a steady constant temp is comfortable from the point of view of being awake and moving around the house, feel of drafts, radiance from heatsink walls etc.
Where I struggle is the idea of a constant temp day and night, I value the significant drop in temperature at night, 18c is an absolute max for me to sleep and lower is much better, then the room warming in the morning naturally wakes me as an alarm. With a more consistent day to night temp this comfort goes away for me, I don't sleep as well and I don't wake up as well.
MCS standard is 21C Livingroom, 22C Bathroom & 18C the rest. The flow temperature can easily be set to step down (or up) a few degrees using programmed schedule in control panel, then step back again before getting up.
Or controlled by mobile App to step up or down if needed, although the system does take a little while to react.
Or you simply adopt the flow rates for the different rooms accordingly. That way the all have a constant temperature but not the same
Install a programmable (remote control) thermostat to your rad.
This is great to watch, 2 conficting opinions managing to find common ground. We the consumer benifit from both parties opinions and i really appreciate your mature approach to a controversial topic.
Not convinced on heat pumps yet. Not been around long enough, plus I'm sure the designers can make them more efficient and more rapid whilst taking up less space.
Heatpumps have been in use in Scandanavia for over 30 years. The size is required for the heat exchanger. The smaller you make it, the less efficient it becomes. Can't bypass physics, unfortunately.
How long have fridges and freezers been about? Pretty proven tech.
Been around longer than the condensing boiler
Bit like saying I’m sure they can make a much more efficient car, these are already highly optimised appliances, far more important is the quality and design of the install than the spec of the equipment.
Heat pumps have been in use in UK commercial market for many years now, and Worldwide have matured over past 60-70 years, with first ever made in @ 1856....
Modern monitoring and control along with precision engineering and design make them very efficient at recovering heat from atmosphere.
Okay, if I can get a heat pump I'll definitely go to heat geeks for install direction.
As an aside, OVO are partnering with Heat Geeks for those who didn't know.
Definitely the next video for skill builder and heat geek is to fit one in rogers house ! I think that’s the video everyone wants to see lol
Great follow up, thanks!!
Just to try and add a bit of balance, personally even after all these videos on this installation, I'm still not convinced that they've really made a strong financial case for installing a heat pump system. Firstly I'll freely admit I'm not a massive fan of these systems so may be I'm showing a little bias but when considering the two systems and the real overall costs I think the arguments regarding cost savings aren't that compelling. For a start as it was said in the video the original installation cost I believe was around £20,000 including insulation. Had the insulation alone been done and then the overall running costs re-calculated for the gas only system I doubt the benefit would subsequently have been so large. Next the system cost £20,000 when it didn't work effectively, so how much more did it cost to actually get it to work properly and how much additional cost was incurred whilst it was being fixed? A heat pump system uses more hardware and has more moving parts that can wear out, has a larger overall foot print, and from my experience cooling fans tend to get noisy as they get dirty/wear and external pipe insulation can crack and deteriorate over time. If the system takes 10 years to payback the investment and that was after discounting the BUS money I believe, then even at that break even point what is the remaining expected lifespan on the equipment going forward? I suspect the cost of maintaining a heat-pump system is also greater than your average boiler system.
Don't get me wrong I'm not against Heat-pumps and EVs for that matter and I'm not just trying to be a miserable old Luddite, it's just that I'm not totally convinced that financially the claims that are made for them are really that strong. I appreciate the desire to be green and for those that are happy to pay the premium to support the cause, fair play to you and well done. However I'm more interested in taking up new technology once the financial case has been proven, I've no desire to be an early adopter if financially it is going to come at an additional and avoidable cost to me. Once the financial argument and overall benefits are beyond doubt then I'm more than happy to consider adopting them provided I am not required to make any other unreasonable sacrifices. Until then I'm happy to stick with my old boiler and an airing cupboard with space to air clothes in, rather than one with more vessels, pipework and valves than you can shake a stick at.
Yep, it's a farce
To be fair Heat Geeks are selling a product so are bound to paint it in a favourable colour. I think the original install was stated as £9k + £6-£7k extra presumably in an attempt to get it working better which ultimately failed. Heat Geek estimated that they would of allowed £20k for the original install. Obviously the true refit costs aren’t known as all the engineers gave their time for free and clearly they flooded the site presumably to do the work in a day or just over. I agree that the financial justification was glossed over somewhat and for many, particularly if you intend moving or are of senior citizen age, the payback and subsequent actual annual savings may never be achieved. As i have commented elsewhere, I’d be interested in a true like for like comparison of ASHP and gas boiler systems with similar insulation and weather compensation upgrades. Like you i suspect a greater portion of the savings is due to these factors over the method of heating. Especially when the BUS grant doesn’t sweeten the deal and electricity rates rise further as demand rises for electricity in all areas not just domestic heating
There is no financial cost argument though it's only appealing to people who think this is helping the climate
20k for a pump or 2k to have your boiler replaced it's not even close, that's before you factor in the insulation requirements
But once there's a certain amount of people who've paid to have them installed you'll be able to move into a house where some other schmuck has paid for one to be installed and no cost to you
"A heat pump system uses more hardware and has more moving parts that can wear out, has a larger overall foot print, and from my experience cooling fans tend to get noisy as they get dirty/wear" - The larger footprint is true, yes, but since the HP is outdoors, and could be mounted on a wall in theory, I think it's less of a downside than you might think. I'm not sure that there are fewer moving parts, though; a boiler has various valves inside (both for gas & water flow), and any modern combi has at least one fan (the exhaust fan). It also has to have an igniter, flame sensors etc.
Also - when was the last time you heard about a heat-pump explosion blowing a whole house apart...? There are domestic gas explosions most years in the UK, some of which are so big they're headline news. If nothing else, that should be an incentive to switch: Not having your house randomly explode! (Of course, it may not be your boiler causing said explosion... but heck, seems nuts having a flammable gas piped into your home when there are safer alternatives!)
@@theelectricmonk3909 I have heard of the odd house explosion over the years but I can't honestly say I have ever heard of one that has been directly attributed to an exploding otherwise fully functioning boiler. Cracked gas pipes, leaking gas fittings, following recent diy work possibly but have never heard of one being directly attributed to an un-tampered with otherwise fully functional and only ever worked on by qualified gas fitters, operating boiler! That said I have seen many claims of self combusting electric powered vehicles, be they hover boards, scooters, e-bikes, BEV,'s or hybrids. All that said I don't recall suggesting that Heat Pump systems self explode I just said they appear to be more complex and therefore reasonable to imagine a have higher associated costs to maintain at optimum operational performance.
I personally had a condensing gas combiboiler installed just 2 years ago, I have a reasonable heating bill and my electricity price is still about 5 times higher than my gas price (it is going down, 2 years ago it was over 7 times), so I'm not changing over any time soon since it would take many many years to earn the investment back.
Heatpumps are definitely the future, they're getting more versatile, more efficient, cheaper, the knowledge in the field is improving thanks to people like Heat Geek.
However, a lot of the tricks to improve efficiency of a heatpump can also help the efficiency of a condensing boiler: oversized radiators or in floor heating, as low flow temperature as possible, weather compensation, lower hot water temperature with legionella cycles instead of maintaining a constant 60°C, improving insulation and draft-proofing, having an appropriately sized boiler instead of one that's 3+ times more powerful than necessary...
Can you give some numbers? Power, cost of electricity & gas /kWh?
@@rkan2 Last time I checked my price for electricity was around €0.25/kWh, and €0.05/kWh for gas (when I installed the gasboiler it was around €0.30/kWh and €0.04/kWh). Unless the ratio drops faster and prices skyrocket, I don't see how it would be profitable to abandon my gas boiler prematurely and buy an ASHP.
Instead, I invest in oversized radiators and reducing heat loss, so I have to burn less gas and I can make the switch when the boiler gives out or if the ROI makes sense to do it prematurely at some point in the future.
Two adult engineers coming together and having a good discussion. Been ace to see this guys. May the love continue
😃
Yeah reach arounds all round.🤌
We live in an old semi-detached country cottage with no heating apart from a log burner. Great to see it's possible with ASHP and enjoyed following the series but will probably go with oil boiler this time around. Our connected neighbour has a heat pump but in winter is forking out £150-200 a month on electric. In 10-15 years when we likely need to replace hopefully by then heat pump installers will have the necessary understanding like these guys. In the meantime we'll make upgrades to insulation/airtightness.
If you’ve survived with no central heating perhaps give a small air to air system a go, far cheaper in every way possible than installing a wet oil system. If you do go the wet route, design it to be heat pump ready with low flow temperatures, will save skipping it all in 10 years time.
I live in an old stone cottage. For the same reason we got a hybrid system - heat pump and oil boiler. Got the full Scottish government grant and interest free loan on it. It was a no brainer going hybrid to get best of both worlds and ability to control how to heat my house.
It would cost you almost the same amount to install oil compared to air source.
@@craigpirie475
Scottish grant only covers Hybrids under specific conditions, otherwise only for non fossil burning installations ?
@@craigpirie475 what kit do you have in the hybrid system?
It's good to know that this man, with a big house, has got his heat pump working quite well. However, he's been set up with a very knowledgeable, and experienced installer, who rectified the previous set up. How many installers are this experienced? Let's also note that the new installation needs a significant amount of room, and many houses have not got enough space. It doesn't seem like a solution to everyone's needs.
Currently we have trained 1000, with another 1000 half way through the training. Looking to ramp up exponentially this year.
Electricity prices are volatile esp since privatisation.
Only because the price of electricity is set by the cost of gas...
@@seanduffy2214More like electricity is set by the roof and windmill feed in tariffs and gas is adjusted up.
Absolute great result. But as said, insulation should be the starting point. Having my house well insulated now gives me more comfort. I did external wall insulation, new windows and a new warm flat roof on the extension and garage, and the difference is huge. No cold drafts and with the bit poor April weather now, 10°C during daytime and around 0°C in the morning the small wood stove downstairs is still enough to heat the whole house. I'm typing this behind my computer upstairs, no heating on since the end of March, and still 18,5°C.
When the woodstove isn't on I use air to air to heat, and the downstairs 7kW unit runs at 20% modulation (which is the minimum) and keeps it warm.
A lot comes in draft proofing as well, but ventilation must be assured. Old houses without draft proofing however have a much higher air replacement rate than you need for the air quality to stay good.
Most homes already have loft insulation and double glazing though.
Well done to all involved -- very interesting series.
£754 to heat a 6 bedroom house for the year.
But apparently heat pumps don’t work.
Well done Adam.
That's on half price electric
@@dannyhowarth1728 which is available.
@@dannyhowarth1728 15p on OVO but cheaper tariff exist, myself and many friends on Octopus with 7.5p overnight rate
If we are going to rely on windmills for electric and it isn't windy what will the scop be on a calm day?
The same. Scop is created be the heat pump not the power source.
Wind increases heat loss, so I guess a bit higher? - but that’s actually a beautiful correlation as more wind equals more low carbon electricity to heat homes.
With weather compensation on a replacement gas boiler installation like I designed for a small business office complex using Danfoss equipment made for this purpose the system runs automatically 24/7 with good insulation and correctly sized radiators all with rad stats. This was over 20 years ago and worked efficiently and at much lower cost than the original gas boiler installation. It did, however, require the first electrician to be replaced as he could not understand the wiring!
Some tech: The boiler had input and output boiler temperature sensors which enabled pump overrun without firing and there was an outside temperature sensor so individual rad heat output was system balanced. Nighttime system temperature was automatically lowered as the offices were unused during this time. Hot water was zoned.
absolutely brilliant..open mind, fair minded approach and great insight..fair play lads..this is top
16k many years before you get a saving. 10 or 11 years. But no mention of the repair costs in case it goes wrong.
and did they mention the renewal costs as the system ages and will need to be replaced
Nothing like a heat pump video to bring the trolls out😅
@@j.b607you would have been keeping your coal fires 50 years ago.
Dinosaurs don’t like change.
Plus they added insulation, which would of been part of the energy savings
@@nicksimmons7234 Simple question "did they mention the renewal costs as the system ages and will need to be replaced"
Wow! Who would have thought that insulation comes before heat pump!!! Shocking!
Bit of a facepalm moment there haha!
Only loft and double glazing which most of the uk already have.
There's a good phrase of fabric fifth!
Insulation should come before fitting any heating method.
@@nealm1814 to a point. IWI and EWI would never payback in the same way
I see loads of heat pumps when I’m out n about. Most are in the Badenoch and Strathspey area, where there is no mains gas. Think Cairngorm Mountains and Aviemore ski resort. They must be replacing oil fired boilers and LPG with a heat pump. I’ve asked a few about it, and everybody seems very happy.
I have noticed heat pumps too, on industrial buildings. But, these big ugly units might look out of place on the side of a thatched cottage in the English countryside.
Here is my experience. The house is a 1960s 4 bed 2000square foot bungalow that was extended to its current size about 6 years ago and brought up to current (then) insulation standards. A year ago I had an 11KW Ecodan ASHP installed and a 11KW solar system installed. I retained a 4 zone programmable controller with 3 zones UFH and 1 radiators in the old part of the house which are mainly bed and bath rooms. The installation was done by a firm based 3 hours away.
Comments on ASHP. - The house was quite comfortable over the winter months although during rapid cooling cold snaps we did use some additional electric heating whilst the ASHP caught up. We are on the Octopus Cosy tariff where electric is cheaper from 4am-7am and 1pm- 4pm. My main concerns are (1) it wasn't that cold this year as last, so I am thinking of more permanent additional heating in the form of fan heating. (2) There is a lot in these videos about running the heat pump continuously at constant room temperatures, I didn't do that allowing the temperatures to fall over night. (3) The installers had to come back to correct some plumbing errors where radiator zone was becoming warm when off, this was due to backflow from the UFH getting into the radiator loop and was only solved by me after two visits and after I had done some research watching TH-cam videos and taking temperature reading! (4) Service costs and getting people in to do it are proving about double or treble that of a gas boiler. I've been waiting for over 6 weeks for Mitsubishi to get back to me to arrange the annual service. There seems few if any people local to me who could do it. Ironically part of the sales pitch for ASHPs is there lower requirement for maintenance and higher reliability but what’s the point if when it does require work there's no one around that is available to do it!
Comments on 11KW PV installation with 2 x 5KW batteries. - I maximised the size of this array knowing that the output would be poor when I needed it most for the ASHP. And yes your right the output in December and January comes no where near suppling the heating. The batteries help by giving me another 16KW of cheap electricity per day. The way I look at it I'm using Octopus energy as a "Seasonal battery". That is to say I sent them a lot of electricity in the summer when output is high and take a lot back in the winter when the ASHP needs it. Currently my cheap energy times are charged at 12p/kwh and my export is paid at 15p/kwh, I can't believe this will last, but even before the recent price drops the incoming cost was 17p, so a marginal cost of 2p/kwh is not bad. I have had a problem with the inverters disconnecting from the grid under certain circumstances which is still an outstanding issue with the installer who is ignoring me after they sent a man in, blamed me for changing a setting which was within the permitted range and after they changed (which the should have been able to do remotely but didn't) tried to charge me. I pointed out that the fault was present before I changed the parameter and also after they changed it back and obviously refused to pay.
Conclusions - (1) Get local suppliers if possible. (2) I am concerned about service and maintenance for the ASHP especial in winter if a fault occurs. (3) the combination of PV panels and ASHP is a powerful one. Its difficult to calculate the exact savings because of price and weather variations however I can say that I have saved in the order of £3000 using this years prices against my gas and electricity consumption for the previous year. This far exceeds the amount of interest the installation cost was earning in my savings account. I think the adoption of both these technology’s together can have a significant effect on bills and emissions.
Is your heat pump running in weather compensation (or weather dependent) mode to allow it to best adjust for outdoor temperature ?
" There is a lot in these videos about running the heat pump continuously at constant room temperatures, I didn't do that allowing the temperatures to fall over night."
Trickling a little heat into building 24/7 means the whole structure is up to temperature (the thermal mass) and can work out better than letting house temperature drop and then trying to blast in heat to warm it up again.
Heatpumps remain the most efficient when the temperature differences are the smallest. Thus obviously you should try to avoid yo-yo and always run the heatpump.
That must have cost a fortune!
There’s no way I’d have that big ugly box in my garden. I’ll stick with my combi and log burner thanks.
No worries :)
Roger is gutted that heat pumps work 😂
Boilers work too. If it aint broke, don't fix it!
@@johnchoice1371 The climate wants a word...
@@johnchoice1371 Except they often don't, the difference is a heatpump will show signs if something is wrong, a boiler will just run up the bill and fail in the middle of winter without notice.
He is one of those people that resist every new and better thing. Just like he had to mention EV's too at he end. Probably was among the last guys with a flip phone too.
@@OnlyUseMeC4s kept going on about not been suitable for single skin homes. When it was working in that one. 😂
Stuck in his ways
I do like heatpumps - I think I lean towards ground source rather than air source - but hot water from a combi (since it's more efficient to heat the little water I use rather than a tank) IMO.. maybe an electric boiler using solar powered might be good? But I'm not even bothered by switching to induction hobs... And I think that flats would be much better in the UK if they could share heating.
It's quite nice being in the middle on heat pumps and watching the arguements from both sides 😂 I see them working well for some and boilers better for others. Why it's so tribal I don't know. I run a log burner which works for me, cheap to install and can be cheap to run if you have your wood sources and a bit of strength to cut it up. Is that right for everyone? Not in this age where people value convenience and worry about the emissions.
I went from gas to a heat pump and a very large battery, annual costs have dropped from £4k to £1.5k - nice
4k!!!!
We're you growing marijuana? How the heck can you spend 4k a year on gas?
@@pauldavies7251I spent 4k a year too. My house is 165m2 so not that big either
doesn’t mean much without more context - such as insulation changes and capex of all equipment
That's strange, because gas is cheaper than electricity.
My issue is every time there is a comparison its against a combi thats not set up properly
get a gas boiler install thats got oversized radiators and on weather comp/mixed circuits etc and then do a comparison
Even set up well your still looking at 90% efficiency, not 450%
It’s still not going to be as good.
@@nicksimmons7234 What do you term as ‘best’?
Cheapest install - gas boiler
Cheapest running cost - air or ground source
Cleanest/lowest co2 - air source
Cheapest lifetime cost - air source
Highest comfort - weather compensation on any heat source
@@HeatGeek I was agreeing with you. Boilers not going to be as good.
We live in an all electric flat in London and would love a heat pump vs our high end excellent quality heaters. Our heating is costing a fortune, £754 was our cost for Nov-Jan
This is my argument...on average electric is 4 times dearer than gas
all this woukd be fine if everyones heat pump install has a efficiency of 450%. This may well be the case with some installs, however i argue the vast majority are 250-350%
So glad the customer is happy. Well done guys. I'm not converted myself. I still much prefer the ability to zone my heating and cooling zones.
You can still do that with a heatpump, you'll just lose some efficiency.
@@egocd Yes, I know.
Just found your channel. I work as a QS for a plumbing & heating company & we work in the new build environment so are currently working with ASHP & UFH systems. Going to share your channel around the office as the knowledge & opinions all match what we're working within now. We're all privately waiting for hydrogen production & infrastructure to get going to be honest.
Thank you for sharing the content, the more people who see it the better,
A wood burning stove will warm your house, cook your food and dry your cloths...and never goes wrong!
True. I’ve had mine on throughout the winter. A modern stove when used correctly won’t produce any smoke. I get a few deliveries a year of logs and burn HT pallet wood. I leave it ticking over and it warms a large 3 bed house right up into the loft conversion. I light it at about 5ish It goes out about 12am most nights. We’ve only put the heating twice when it was below freezing in the afternoon.
Best thing I ever did 👍🏻
Won't heat every room though and nobody wants cooking or clothes hanging around in the living room. I love log burners but I'm not daft enough to think they're anything but a novelty.
@TheDoosh79 it does heat every room, you just leave the doors open.
We dry our clothes next to it, and there is no smoke at all, except sometimes you may get a small wiff of smoke when you chuck another log on. They are a fantastic heat source and very cheap if you're prepared to chop pallets, which I enjoy.
@TheDoosh79 it's the main source of heat in my home.
@@TheDoosh79 'but I'm not daft enough to think they're anything but a novelty.' - really! I have them in my last 2 homes and they are far from a novelty: heat spreads, they can be used to heat a water cylinder and if you have one with a hotplate they can be used for cooking (in a kitchen of course), especially useful as a back up and believe me kept my energy bill down by 30% - why would you think that?
If only everything was done correctly then heat pumps could be more accepted..
And for some homes heat pumps will never be a solution..
Thanks for all the brilliant and informative videos.
I also have a heat pump and they do work. As you say, it has to be designed and commissioned properly.
What was the total heat loss of the property?
Many thanks.
Thanks for all the brilliant and informative videos.
I also have a heat pump and they do work. As you say, it has to be designed and commissioned properly.
What was the total heat loss of the property?
Many thanks.
Excellent Roger. Thanks very much for such a great series. You and I are one the same page regarding most things. Very interesting.
I'm surprised that people are still cooking on gas. In an enclosed area, even with decent ventilation, you are poisoning yourself.
Our oil central heating also has outside temperature monitoring to help heat more efficiently. Here in Latvia we get temperatures as low as -30 and need the heating on for around 200 days per annum. For our 200m² house we need around 200L of diesel per annum, hot water included.
Our English homes are very draughty, which is what contributes to our very fine nature. There's almost no chance of NOx poisoning from a gas cooker, but every chance it will work well during the inevitable future power cuts as more and more idiots ruin their lives with heat pumps and electric cars. The National Grid would crumble if this subsidy madness continues. Typical homes consume 2MWh electricity and 20MWh gas annually. Now swap your gas boiler for a heat pump and imagine the added strain to the copper wires under your road... Get out the JCB again.
@@advance-heating What do you mean by very fine nature - is it that you're heating the countryside with your leaky houses so that stuff grows so well in nature to make it so fine, or the fine nature of the people who commit the knife crime that you're famous for?
@@RedRupert64 ha ha, what heat? The English are used to a slight chill at home, so we invented woolly jumpers! I met a fella running a city print shop once, who lived in a farmhouse with his ageing mother and an oil Aga cooer. They never turned on the central heating. "A house is supposed to proved shelter from rain and winds" he said. If we're honest, these detailed heating tech videos are dealing with First World problems ! I'm amazed you don't consume more than 200ltr of oil though in Latvia at -30°. I can't imagine you've got something like John's five empty bedrooms all kept rock solid at 20.3°C ?
I am leaving this comment here so that after some hours, days, weeks, months or years when someone likes or comment on it, I will be reminded to watch this video again😄
I heard Adam say that even with the high COPs of the ASHP, that gas boilers adjusted for similar flows etc in similar conditions are not much worse in efficiency. Given that, why force everyone electric at great cost? I suppose it depends on whether you believe in the net zero project or not. But for the heatpumps to be "green" they need "green" electric, which could only be notionally achieved if you believe nukes are "green" and they can roll them out fast enough.
Boiler max annual efficiency 92%. Heat pump 530%. No contest, running cost wise at least.. if you have batteries or solar half heat pump running costs again! If both half again. It’s not even close
Absolutely. Going all electric just opens up extra options as far as savings are concerned.
That being said, there's overlap on the savings so the return on investment element can look worse if you go with heat pump, solar, and battery.
IMO, looking at it as investment isn't the right approach to be taking anyway. We're all going to need to go electric anyway, so we might as well just embrace it rather than being "victims" of it.
@@michaelwinkley2302 its impossible without ruining most peoples lives, we will be poor paying huge costs for stuff made by coal in china or india
@@HeatGeek sure. Except you don't consider installation costs. Here in Germany a heat pump installed is about 30k or 40k solar another 25k for a 7kw + 5kwh battery. 70k of investment. Do you know how many years you could run on a condensing gas boiler with 70k euros? Run some math please. I am not against heat pumps. But honestly it is a choice that is forced on people and the government does not help at all.
@@2frogland China generates more renewable energy than the rest of the world combined. It is also at the forefront of developing and manufacturing the technology that we all need on the renewable front.
I think you need to stop believing all the scaremongering about China.
You can have problems no matter what type of heating you have installed and even if on paper the installers are qualified. We had a new Worcester Bosch gas combi installed by WB certified installers (which is required if you want the longer warranty). We had a lot of problems and eventually got WB to come out and have a look. WB called the installers cowboys and they had installed it so badly it voided the warranty completely. We had to get the issues fixed by WB and another company that wasn’t WB certified but knew more about what they were doing before we could get the warranty reinstated
It only depends on how much you pay gas and how much you pay electricity in any particular country. In Germany for example it is impossible: heat pumps and gas boiler from a pure cost perspective are equivalent. ( Without PV ) And and and. The above is true only if the property is well insulated. If not gas will definitely be cheaper.
Insulation makes both cheaper. Heat pumps only struggle in poorly insulated houses if you don't size the pipes and radiators properly. Otherwise they do just fine.
Sadly germany closed its nuke plants so you have a long way to go to bring down the electricity price
having constant low heating isnt specific to heat pumps surely gas can be run like that so irrelevant
Absolutely correct!
It can, but there are lots of variables. To start - to run at lower temperatures you will likely need to increase the size of your radiators, those don't come free. You can't just turn the knob down on the boiler and call it a day. Also, there are also many houses (like mine) that have a single temperature dial for hot water and heating, so we can't turn it down to a lower temperature otherwise the water won't get up to temp. If I was replacing my boiler there's little benefit to me getting another boiler when I can get a heat pump and it be cheaper to run. Hardly irrelevant.
@@egocd hows a heat pump heating your water if its running at 20 degrees
You have the same problem, half the heating engineers don’t even know what open therm is
@@2frogland
My 'Low Temperature' Daikin heats HWC to 55C (although set to 45C for a roasting hot bath), COP for HWC drops to 3 - 3.5 depending on weather and required temperature.
6kW Daikin heats 150 litres from 10C to 55C in @ 55 minutes, and uses lees than 2kWh of electricity.
It then switches back to my set 32C flow temperature to radiators.
Don't doubt the COP when it's a bit cold and windy outside. My garden is a frost pocket, have 100% doubts when it's still and freezing weather. Annualised is no good, need most heating when it's really cold. All the hot water takes less than 3kWh/ day with resistive. (e.g. 1.2kWh for a shower).
Ground source heat pumps are the best of the heat pumps , put one in a farm 14 years ago & still going strong . Alot of factures to make sure you can get the best out the air source heat pumps ,miss one thing off and they under perform !!
paid off in 10 years but how long does the system last 10 years ?
15-20 years. We will be extending our guarantees in due course to further prove this
@@HeatGeek Is it an insurance backed guarantee or from the installer?
@@HeatGeekfull parts and labour costs covered? Of course not. I've recently been quoted £120 per hour from an HVAC engineer for a call out to fix my £800 fridge. Needless to say I binned it and bought a new one for £500 quid.
@@edthompson9337 yes but we go beyond the standard and also guarentee the efficiency.
@@DavidJohnson-yg8qm yes full parts and labour cost covered.
Totally insulate your house before getting a heat pump fitted and you will save money. How about totally insulate your house and then save in the cost of a heat pump (and all the duff engineers calls associated), and see how much you save then.
I am fully convinced on the theory and physics of heat pumps BUT space is at a premium where I live and I’m reluctant to add a hot water tank and an outdoor unit. Would be interested to see how improvements may be coming down the line to make the units less obtrusive (even if you lose a bit of the efficiency).
Loved the video, nice to see you all collaborating and getting along. I think it would be good to get Rodger involved with Szymon on a full Install and Commissioning of a Heat Pump System.
The trouble is that we don't want to turn into the heat pump channel so, apart from the videos we have in the pipeline and the Installer Live debate I am having with Adam next month we are going to look at some other hot topics.
If the government continues down the path of banning gas and oil boilers we are going to need something more realistic than heat pumps. There are other ideas out there but they are being starved of investment because of this wrong-headed approach.
Entire Heat Geek team working on this one installation so probably done at a loss as its for skill builder, 20k is an immense amount of money that will pay for 3 boilers installed then it needs replacing every 12years, 20c is not hot enough for many ladies for sure more like 23c and only 2 people using hot water so it wont be nowhere near as cost effective if those change, 90% of people don't have the space, very good insulation is required or it wont work, it wont perform as well in the depths of winter below 2c so you will need the boiler, many more components that can go wrong and will need replacing. This is a good example of how it can be done with a whole team of people working on it but a little unrealistic.
Would be interesting to see all 6 room occupied and hot water demands. 20° c on weather comp is different to 23 with normal on off controls for comfort . I fit a mixture of both.
Saying they don't work below 2 degrees is incorrect. For starters the systems are designed to function perfectly fine down to -2c and can go further. Secondly, they've been using heat pumps in Scandanavian countries for over 30 years. It gets a lot colder there! To your other point - boilers also need to be replaced, so that's irrelevant. Also, I'm not sure I know of a single person that has their heating on 23c. Did you listen to the part about the house feeling warmer at a constant, lower temperature? To your last point - The whole team worked on this to get it done asap and as a publicity stunt. You only need 2 people to install a heat pump in 2-3 days in a regular property. Even when presented with the hard facts, some people just will not accept the idea of heat pumps and will continue to cling onto their old, soon to be irrelevant, gas boilers.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if the installation of new gas boilers is banned in the near future. I would recommend getting used to the idea of a more modern form of heating
Most of us were standing around. These guys are doing these installs every day
@@egocd I've installed air to air heat pumps for 20 years
Spend £20,000 and save £500 a year? will take 40 years to get your money back and will the heat pump gear even last that long
Exactly, same issue with EV cars. We are constantly being told that now wind and solar is the cheapest energy yet the unit price for electricity per kWh is much more than gas.
@@GaryBox
Exactly
And all the equipment is made in China using COAL powered Electricity
The payback time will probably never cover the manufacturing transport etc
The numbers do not stack up
We are living in foolish times .. where they want you to buy nonsense at 10X the price of sense
And don’t forget about maintenance / breakdown and repair costs
Look at the issues this customer has had here trying to get this system fixed and working properly
It took an army of industry experts to put it right
Also in an attempt to mask the true cost the government is propping up this technology , for now , with grants , aka our own money, which will eventually run out
In reality it will never save you a penny and will simply cost a lot more than a conventional system in the long run
Fancy flowered up performance graphs and a very smart sales presentation doesn’t convince me to part with my gas combi and log burner
@@GaryBox
& It is all manufactured in China using Coal power
this is the most foolish time in human history
Kinda forgets the point that boilers need replacing as well, so it's not £20k on top, it's £20k ( if it's that) - £5k that a normal boiler for this size house would have cost. So the actual cost is 20-5-7.5, he only needs to find 7.5k to make it back. And it saves 700 a year, and he lives in a more comfortable house.
But the discussion is like for EVs. The biggest arguments against are made by people who never had one, so take their experience from other people shouting loudly.
Robert hits the nail on its head. HP and EVs are great for most situations, but not for everywhere.
Yes they are well cheap if installed correctly! Great job heat geek !
That's an interesting comment about keeping the gas boiler. I though they'd be incompatible with heat pump radiators but now I know they can be kept in the loop just in case.
rich mans hobby like electric cars not an answer for the average joe
Untill finance
Tories think you should work hard.
@@HeatGeek even with ,far too costly unless new build
@@nicksimmons7234 and labour will force me to ,timer to get rid of any party signed up to net zero
@@2frogland Not true. I had a quote, including the BUS grant getting a heatpump was the same cost as a replacement gas boiler. All depends.
I think as the tech gets better these will be better in the long run but the current ones just aren’t good enough
20c in a house is way too warm for me. 17-18 is comfortable and especially at night 20c is way too warm
Everyone feel heat differently, older people need higher heat typically. You would run a heat pump much more efficiently at that temperature.
The current one in this man's house is 20% cheaper to run than gas.
What improvements are needed
17-18 would be even more efficient!
You can have a heat pump run outputting 17-18 if you want, you're not stuck with 20.
It shows we are all different. We need 22 g indicated, our set back temp is 19. 17-18 is far too cold for us. 19 is our nighttime temp. Oh and we have a gas boiler and system upgraded by Tommy last year. Not a heat pump.