Also, as for Natalie in general....I think people need to remember that we have all been problematic. All of us. Four years ago Natalie identified as a cisgender dude. She has walked a helluva road in a relatively short period of time, I mean her identity has changed more in a couple years than mine has in two decades. That leaves her with a lot of learning to do, a lot of unpacking to do, and a lot of growing to do all on its own. I went back recently and watched some of the earliest vids and they flat out say the opposite of what I know Natalie believes now. My point being that we have evidence that she is growing and changing and learning. I guess I feel like there are FAR better people to drag out there. I mean, did Sargon of Akkaad dematerialize and leave us with no one else to rant about? I'm not saying that we shouldn't point things out which are harmful. We absolutely need to - as a mobility disabled wheelchair user, I do it all gatdamned day. But when someone says, "oh, shit, I'm sorry. I never thought of it that way" or "oh, I totally didn't mean to dismiss you. What I was trying to say was actually ________" I am going to bid them adieu and let it lie, even if I don't think our interaction turned them into the latest disability activists. If we roast everyone who missteps on the road to Perfect Progressive, we are going to discourage a lot of voices from being heard - this culture of one and you're done discourages a LOT of non-NT people I know from even really using social media. They are so afraid that their processing or communication differences will lead them to misstep that they just don't engage. Not to mention that even NT people were new to every idea at some point. We are all supposed to be getting better and more educated and becoming stronger allies and activists all the time, which by definition means we all have places we can improve.
I also remember her mentioning in a very early video that at one point she was a shitposter at a young age, and then learned to broaden her horizons and see things from other people's points of view. No one is born perfect, but she tries, and keeps trying.
👍. I saw that some people had the impression that Contrapoints fans were saying she was above criticism, and I didn't see much of that. I mean get it, I'm a big fan of Natalie but some do take it a bit too far. But there was a lot of strawmanning going around and harassment, and it was terrible to see so much focused on her. Some couldn't see the difference between defending her and appealing for calm.
Kimmaline Not just that, the whole concept of ‘one and done’ means you’re gonna run out of allies real quick. To add to this, let’s talk tactics for a moment, because unfortunately everything is political and tactical to some degree, the right wing reactionaries are ascendant right now. The US is teeetiering on the brink of outright fascism. Brazil basically is, though there’s resistance there). The UK is lead by a reactionary. Australia is lead bya coalition of parties otht increasingly resembles the Republican party circa 2012-2014. There’s a terrifyingly high likelihood that Macron in France will be replaced by Le Pen. There has never been a more crucial time for tactical unity, even if we have our differences. Disagreements amongst ourselves are fine. We’re human, they’re going to happen. And of course there’s a certain threshold beyond which certainly, we do have to seriously think about whether to include someone in a movement. One thing I would remind allies, and the LGBT community in general, is that the right wing are ruthless. They’re bad faith actors. They’ll exploit any drama in our ranks to divide and wedge the left to weaken us and prise us apart. Sargon has already commented on this matter. And he was smart and tactical about it. He made himself sound almost reasonable. NOw, we know he’s not, we’ve seen what he does. But mark my words, some will be fooled. This cancel culture drives people away, it keeps people quiet, it burns people out. People who may be our strongest allies will give up because they know, if they just say the wrong combination of words, they’ll just be tossed out to pasture. Let me emphasise again, and again, and again. Were Contra’s words perfect? No. Could they have been better?Probably. Honestly, this is part of why I basically don’t use twitter. I think it’s a terrible means of communication for this sort of thing. It doesn’t lend itself to nuance. And we need nuance back to solve this. This is going to be difficult in a world with very right/wrong thinking being the order of the day. If someone is genuine, and willing to learn, I’ll forgive them a thousand times. If they’re clearly being disingenuous, I’m much less forgiving, but I always explain why. On a side note. be careful with gossip and conspiracy theories. These can be the seeds that destroy a movement. Cointelpro used these back in the 60s against the civil rights movement and even womens rights movements. Have a very, very high bar for such things. Demand proof. I only mention this because on one video I saw on the Contrapoints situation, there was someone claiming Contra was a CIA plant. Call me naive, but that seems unlikely. NOt that they wouldn’t try to infiltrate a movement mind you. Contra just doesn’t seem the sort. And also, just throwing that accusation around can be highly damaging. Don’t do it unless you can back it up with evidence, folks.
I'm also a nonbinary person who was mostly fine with Natalie's comments. I think your response was really mature, well-thought out and measured. I really appreciate hearing someone else saying the kind of things I'm thinking and saying and getting a lot of backlash from other nonbinary people about. Thanks
Feminine leaning Enby here. I also can see why some might find Natalie's comments insensitive, but I found nothing wrong with them. Especially if you know anything about Natalie's TH-cam stuff. We have so few advocates that can effectively communicate with nuance and humor as Natalie does. She is one we can't afford to lose.
Also non-binary (I prefer the term gender-queer, but same difference) and I have no problem with Natalie’s comment. Why? Because when the circle come around to me, my answer is “use whatever pronouns you’re comfortable with.” It’s literally impossible to misgender me
is the main problem being clocked on itself or is the way people may treat you afterwards what triggers the disforia? i haven’t meet many trans people IRL sorry if it sounds ignorant 😬 i needed to ask
As someone that has worked in a LOT of call centers i can tell you that misgendering anyone makes them upset. Call a woman sir she might be asking for a sup in the next sentence. We tend to lose that sir ma'am thing preeeeetty fast and we learn to talk around pronouns. :/ sometimes i have no idea if pat is short for patrick or patricia but we get along fine. Maybe we should do that its not like english is super gendered the way spanish or german are.
It's so validating when someone on the phone assumes I'm female and calls me ma'am, it tells me my voice is not completely beyond helping. Luckily i haven't been called sir in 10 years, thank god
@@BothHands1 i was called ma'am even before i transitioned. XD My voice is high even tho i was assigned male at birth. And thats the case for a lot of latinx people. Well people in general even english speakers etc. So there can be someone on the line im sure is a woman and if its a cis man or any man they tend to not want to keep their cable service. That said if its a situation where you prefer to be gendered ill oblige, it's just a trick of the trade that i picked up
artemismeow oh for sure, i was just giving my perspective, but i definitely agree that neutral is the safer option. It's orders of magnitude less uncomfortable to be referred to with neutral pronouns than it is to be referred to by male ones. I was lucky to get on hormones at age 17, well i got a job and ordered them online from New Zealand. But even before that, it was about 50/50 between ma'am and sir. But unfortunately I've been a smoker for 16 years, so i do have to do the work to make sure things don't go backwards for me.
Yup, the right pronoun is not that easy in german, when she/her and they/them are the same word. Also, all our nouns are gendered, so most nouns describing people have a female and a male form. Like actress/actor in english. There are some efforts to make the language more inclusive for nonbinary and intersex people, but it's not that easy and the "anti-PC" crowd goes berserk.
@@palimpalim9757 im learning german so this part has been super challenging. XD Uhm but yea we have an amazing take in latinx communities ...ahem!: "The use of gender neutral words like Latinx is equivalent to colonialism by language" If we know the history of latin America the statement is laughable at best or extremely cynical at worst. :/
I'm Icelandic, and in my language (and others) this is really easily accomplished, as a standard introductory greeting need only change from 'Ég er Anna' (I am Anna) to 'Ég er hún Anna' (I am she Anna)- this is already a perfectly normal way of introducing someone else: 'Þetta er hún Anna' (This is she Anna). Unfortunately English is a bit...clunkier. You should all just learn Icelandic, I think that would be easiest. Also, I'm mostly a 'she', but I don't really care all that much if I get misgendered, which happens regularly.
This makes a lot of sense to me. Being gay, it has helped tremendously that even straight people have adopted "partner" and "SO" so ubiquitously. Even when there's no apparent reason for them to avoid using "husband" or "wife," the fact that so often these days they use gender neutral terms really goes far in making me feel more comfortable using gender neutral language for my own situations.
Great point! It's funny, actually I was meeting a new colleague at work today and he (although I shouldnt have assumed pronouns) started talking about his husband. ' He was like me and my husband blah' I did falter slightly ( I need to stop assuming everyone is cishet.) but I know that many LGBT people wouldn't have been as comfortable expressing a few years ago. Ime colleagues have always used 'partner' or 'SO', which signified to me they are LGBTQ without having to say.
@@lillustpotion I use spouse all the time, and I like SO or partner because it also takes away the marriage aspect. I grew up fundementalist and marriage was made into this very religious thing for me. Calling my spouse my SO or partner helps take the religious aspect away.
This was one of the reasons I've adopted calling my girlfriend my partner to everyone. It's such a small change but I think it makes a huge difference in terms of changing the zeitgeist.
Josiah McCarthy that’s interesting, cause I always interpreted that as the heteros appropriating it now that they thought it was cool. It would annoy the shit out of me, kinda like how they always seem to end up at our bars and clubs these days lol
Hi! My name is Laura, she/her. I'm willing to be an awkward cis person for the cause and introduce myself with pronouns, hell I'm awkward anyway. At my work some of us put that info in our email signatures, it helps with figuring out pronouns for non English names too. Thanks for being you and making these videos!!!
Hi Laura -- Anthony, he/him -- and I agree with the streamlined format of "[Name], [pronouns]", rather than saying "my pronouns are [...]". It feels more like a casual thing that we're not making a big deal of (and therefore doesn't make me worried people will think I'm being self-righteous/"virtue signaling"/making this about me).
hey, this is great! like natalie, i also feel “clocked” when people default to they/them for me, but- like your great example with subtitles- i’ve mostly accepted that this is just an issue of conflicting accommodations, and it’s fine if binary folks like me have to just suck it up and deal sometimes if it makes life easier for folks who have to put up with more misgendering in their lives than i do. but it doesn’t feel great to see folks on twitter and reddit claiming that it’s bigoted to point out that the discomfort is there, or that defaulting to they/them for everyone isn’t actually the perfect solution many people wish it was, so thank you for talking about this so compassionately. a couple hiccups with your solution: - there are still a lot of places where offering your pronouns is still not practical (like, say, one-off interactions with cashiers) - when people choose *not* to share their pronouns in response, you’re still at square one of not knowing how to refer to them - if declaring your pronouns becomes common with cis people, it might backfire and lead to people being “clocked” if they choose *not* to declare their own in response - as much as it’d be great if this was cis peoples’ problem, they’re pretty unreliable, and i think a lot of the conversation is about how queer folks behave in our own spaces, where we have more control and room to try out different norms (like wearing pronoun pins) safely before advocating them to cis people i think it’s likely that there just isn’t a solution that will perfectly suit everyone, bc peoples’ needs and comfort zones can be so wildly different, but it’s still worth it to consider how to find kind, ethical practices for accommodations like this. thanks for keeping the convo moving forward 🙏
This is all a hassle, really. If you want this to work, make it so it's like names. Take it casually. At the end of the day, nobody wants an interaction to be complicated. Sometimes, one might say "my name is X, but you can call me Y/please, call me Y". I think overall, if one side thinks pronouns are important to them, they should just be upfront about it and specify, and keep correcting until the other side gets it. People with complicated or undesirable names deal with that all the time, they're not dead, and that's just how it is with strangers who don't know your specificities. You have to teach them, and that's that.
Nobel Nas gotta say i’d also really love it if people didn’t hassle me about my name all the time! that’d make my interactions with strangers considerably less annoying.
@@SlimmerCat Tell me about it ! I have a crazy ass long name that I hate with all my might, even the administration keeps botching it up. I always shorten it to oblivion for friends to make it easy for the both of us (esp my poor ears), or we straight up prefer using my username xDD Eh. Can't blame people, really. But you just gotta be clear and practical, is all. The brain is a lazy organ.
Personally, I don't understand the transgender experience because I am not transgender, but I watch y'all so I can understand how to be a better accomplice as Kat Blaque put it. I hate to see anyone go through what Natalie and others go through because y'all have taught me so much. I hate that this happens a lot and I worry about all of you because I can't imagine how hard this is. From a basically CIS pan women thank you all for teaching us we don't know what we're doing, but some of us are trying and you are making a difference.
I am a cis-gay bear with a long beard who wears plaid flannel and workboots. Intoroducing myself as "Hello, I'm Jafar and I use he/him pronouns" might not just come across as weird it might also come across as snide or an obvious hint "I gave my pronoun because obviously I'm unsure about yours and thought it was impolite to ask", which might also trigger dysphoria. I'm not concerned about my embarrassment or coming off as weird because I'm already a walking stereotype but I feel there's going to be a period of awkwardness and possible misunderstanding until this is normalised.
Thanks for writing this. I think that's exactly the thing--IF you feel safe to do that in every interaction, not just when you can't tell which binary gender the person affiliates with, you can be part of the normalization. Because the thing is, you never know. I have a face and body type that people see as very femme, and my style of dress varies from femme business casual sans jewelry & makeup to "queer-looking" or butch lez. But I'm agender. I let people use whatever pronouns they like, but I correct people who call me a woman. If someone cis introduced themselves with pronouns to me, I would assume they were an ally and be able to tell them that I'm agender, in groups i'd like to be called "this/that person/individual" and behind my back IDGAF. In my dream world which will never exist, I get called he in all spaces, but don't have to change what I look like. I guess it confuses people, but I want a world where people can look however they want (or however gets them through the world with minimal breakdowns), while they identify with whatever gender feels true and use whatever pronouns feel best. Just something to consider, thanks for caring about it.
I mean, there are trans gay bears that have long beards and wear flannel... I don't think it's weird at all to say your pronouns given that you could be trans for all we know as an onlooker !
When I (a cis-woman) started introducing my friend (a trans-woman) to my other groups of friends, I started telling people how we knew each other "This is *Name* , she and I are in *This group* together" I thought this was helpful for not only letting others take the que from me about her pronouns, but also helped in general with making a new person feel included in the group, because they had a jumping off point of something to talk about
a huge hole in the discourse here, for me, as someone very confused on the concept of gender, questioning for that reason, and absolutely not out or planning to be at the moment with family, being asked, or even normalizing asking or saying your pronouns is hard. Because if someone is closeted, being expected to state pronouns or being asked, effectively forces them (us?) to enforce that closet and lie. It forces questioning people who might not be ready to give a specific answer to answer on the spot, or to worry about how to answer. I'm sure there are people in a similar space to me that very much want to be given the chance to try out how if feels to ask for they/them or something, but with my personal confusion on the subject and social anxiety and issues with social cues already, the entire idea of ever being asked for pronouns or expected to share them terrifies me. It's far easier to just let people assume. And I dont /think/ I'm saying this from a position of cis privilege. If i was super sure i was cis, i doubt having to say 'she/her' would stress me out as much? Basically not everyone is ready to share their pronouns or have that conversation, and it really messes with people who may be closeted or unsure. Imagine saying your closeted pronouns and then having people' use it against you if/when you do decide to come out. Or people who were using one you like better switching bc you had to hide somewhere. Or having 'allies' correct or question you on your own pronouns when you aren't ready to come out in some space. I feel like this whole part of the discourse is missing.
I'm still early on... and one of the hardest things for me was when I was updating my info on Facebook a bit... I was fine putting gender as transwoman... and then right below it... pronouns... I'm quite aware of what I look like, I am not comfortable with being referred to as she/her... but I don't want to put transwoman with he/him pronouns... and they/them is a NB thing... and I'm quite binary... to the point where I would rather be recognized as masc rather than somewhere in between... and there is no option for like... just use my freakin name... (No diss on enbies, just my own personal preference) Yeah... it's a small and ridiculous thing to get all confused over... ended up just going they/them... but nothing in the choices available felt right for where I currently am at, to the point where I nearly set everything back to male/he/him.
I am a cis person who also happens to be blind so I have trouble reconciling with the fact that I don’t want to hurt the feelings of trans people by asking what their pronouns are and the fact that I cannot tell by looking because I can’t see how they present themselves
It would be shockingly absurd of me to be offended if someone who could not see me had to ask my pronouns. I think your case is a notable exception of when it just makes sense for someone to ask.
I think humor goes a long way in creating trust and understanding here. When someone shows they're willing to make themselves look silly, in an effort to do the right thing, it's usually more effective than outright politeness. For example, leaning in and privately asking "hey, what are your pronouns--I'm blind!" might be funnier than a more formal, impersonal introductions.
As someone who is supporting Natalie on Patreon and being a part of her hangouts with her patrons, I can tell you this: She didn't want to cover non-binary folk, she didn't feel comfortable doing it because she isn't non-binary, and recognized the problematic aspects of it. But her supporters continued to encourage her to do so. Everyone learns and grows. I agree with you on everything you've said, and yet I told my entire company during a Q&A 2 years ago that they should just ask people's pronouns if they don't know them. I wish I didn't say that. I feel stupid for saying the wrong thing even though it made sense at the time, and that's what I wanted them to ask me, as a baby trans (still am, obvi). Yet here we are, growing as a community and changing our perspectives based on our lived experiences and engagement. I have learned to forgive myself instead of spiraling into depression over it. I extend that forgiveness to others as well, including Natalie.
Yup, this is the best solution. My big issue with pronoun circles is how it puts trans people in a vulnerable spot. One time i was at a training event for the leaders of student clubs and there was going to be a consent workshop, where everyone was going to give their name and pronouns. During the day i kept hearing people make attack helicopter jokes and other transphobic comments. That attitude destroys the trust that we are supposed to build by having these workshops and using gender inclusive language. Too many people see those things as pandering so not only does it put trans people on the spot in unsafe situations, it also reinforces the idea that we are looking to restrict their freedom. Like you said, in order to keep trans people safe, cis allies need to normalise it first.
I'm not trans - just gay, and it's been a really confusing time to be a trans ally. I really appreciate your take on this. Thanks for sharing your pov.
(I remember reading your essays on The Orbit many moons ago. Hello). I didn’t think the conflict Contra raised is one that requires a solution-just a statement of fact different kinds of trans people are going to be uncomfortable with behaviors that make the others comfortable. Your subtitles example is apt in that the only solution is for you to suck it up-I feel like my only option is to suck it up and be the bigger person when it comes to pronouns. Changing norms as you describe will likely make some cis people uncomfortable-namely cis people who are gender-non-conforming. In short, I don’t think there’s a solution that will be easy for everyone. Some of us are just going to be uncomfortable and have to suck it up when in certain groups that have certain pronoun practices. And since we’re ALL gonna be uncomfortable, all I ask is that we each be patient and understanding with each other’s hangups.
I agree with most of what was said in this video. But it kind of hurts being constantly told "cis people need to deal with being uncomfortable." I'm a cis woman, I'm gender non-conforming, but typically present as female. But because of my typically male name that I was born with, I am CONSTANTLY misgendered as male. I'm very much cis, I try my hardest to be a trans ally. But it hurts so damn much being basically told "cis person, your pain is invalid, cause you're cis."
I feel like being gender non-conforming kind of takes away from your cis privilege. I've often thought that more discussion should be made into how cis and/or het gender non-conforming people experience prejudice similar to that of trans/NB and LGB+ people.
I just can't imagine everyone starting their conversations with 'Hi I'm (blank) and my pronouns are (blank).' Also I'd feel very much uncomfortable doing that. I already feel uncomfortable in most if not all social situations. You can call me a bad ally if you want, but that's how I honestly feel. I think the words I use to describe myself should be ones that I choose myself. In other words, I don't think I should be forced to gender myself. (And before anyone says 'use they/them', isn't non-binary still a gender?) I get that other people will gender me and that's something I can't control, but if it's myself, I should at least have to option to opt out of that.
Pronouns first, then Natalie. Of course, as a cis person, my gut reaction to this solution was "What? No, that's weird, and at work would alienate me from the really conservative people with all the power." But that's what privilege is, my choice is between fitting nicely into the status quo or coming off as some "woker than thou SJW" in the eyes of my coworkers, rather than the choice a NB person would have which is to either publicly self-misgender or out oneself as trans in, what I have already identified as, a work environment hostile to that idea. The worse of my two choices is better than either choice a NB person would have in my social setting. What this is is people who have the privilege taking the blunt of the opposition because they are likely to be far less harmed by it. It's the same reason white people should stand up to police when they see them using excessive force towards POC. Yes, white people may face consequences for doing this, but are likely to suffer far milder consequences than, say, a black person would, and because if that, is likely to be more effective at altering police actions. The reason something like this has to happen is because it isn't safe for NB to constantly out themselves in public spaces. Ideally, we'll get to a point in time when it is safe and nobody thinks anything of it. Everyone just knows that most people identify as men or women, but some people don't, and that's normal. As a society, we are getting pretty close to everyone just knowing that most binary people are attracted to the opposite gender, but some people aren't, and that's normal. As a result, more gay people feel comfortable telling people in more social settings than ever before. We still have a ways to go, but it's definitely way better than 20 years ago. The conversation that I think needs to be had is about if we hold on to generalizations or not. For example, with regard to physical disabilities, one could state that the human body features two eyes, two arms, and two legs. This is correct to a very large degree, but of course there are people who do not have two eyes, two arms, and/or two legs and have to navigate a world where it is assumed that they do. This is the accessibility issue Luxander brings up in this and her first video on this topic. Do we hold on to the concept of a gender binary while acknowledging and accepting that not everyone fits into it, or do we throw the whole thing out because the existence of the binary in our culture is harmful to those who don't fit into it? I know this is what you'd expect from a cis person, but my opinion is that we should keep the binary, since most people subscribe to it, while providing accessibility for those who don't. Getting rid of gendered bathrooms is low hanging fruit, but ultimately I think the goal should be to keep gender a thing while getting to a point where it doesn't matter for much of anything outside of perhaps who we're attracted to sexually. We don't get rid of stairs just because there are some people who can't use stairs, we make sure that there is accessibility for people who can't use stairs. Having a gender binary is clearly pretty important to binary trans people, and I'd wager it is at least somewhat important to cis people as well. My experience is as a cis person, so I'd love to hear the thoughts of some trans binary and NB people. About ContraPoints. Sorry if I get a bit defensive here, but we cannot forget what Natalie does. Natalie makes very effective videos for reaching isolated white men. ContraPoints is one of the best Antifa efforts out there in that she catches some men before they become fascists. Normies are the Left end of her target audience. She might not be the wokest of the woke, that's not what she's claiming she is. Again, I'm a cis white dude, so I'm definitely not going to be as sensitive about these issues as someone who suffers from negative representation of their group, but Natalie seems pretty well intentioned and willing to listen. But canceling Natalie, sorry, is harmful to the trans community, including the NB community. Her Tweets on pronouns caused a discussion, and that is all that should have come from that, a discussion. Give Natalie and anyone who listens to her your valid take based on your valid experiences and some of us, and probably Natalie, will listen and self correct. Canceling Natalie accomplishes nothing. She isn't going to be replaced by ContraPoints 2: Now With Perfect NB Representation. There are a LOT of people other than NB people who are at an ever growing risk in the current American political climate, and they need people like Natalie more than ever. Again, if you were offended by Natalie's take on pronouns, I'm not saying you should suck it up, I'm saying you should be constructive with your feedback with the goal of getting people to listen and self correct. Canceling ContraPoints is not a victory in any shape or form.
yes! i said on the kat blaque video about this that i think the best way to do it is for everyone, especially cis people to introduce themselves with their name and pronouns, making it so normal its as expected as giving a handshake when you introduce yourself!
I am a transmasc nonbinary person myself and this is something I have been encouraging my cis friends to do. I run a local fandom community too, so at our meets we have been teaching by example in a welcoming environment. I have felt for quite a while normalizing pronoun introductions with our names can help a TON. And I agree it is up to the majority (our non-trans allies) of our society, so thank you for this followup video. ^_^
I'm a trans person. I don't know if I'm binary or non-binary. This whole asking for pronouns thing also makes me uncomfortable, because I don't know how to respond. And I really don't want to explain. When I've met people questioning their gender, they have the same issue that I do. My solution for this situation (which can also be taken as a temporary measure while your solution is the long term goal) is that when we go around in a circle asking people for their pronouns, don't press people if they don't respond. This should also be implemented regarding names. It sucks when you're trying to decide your name and you go somewhere you know you'll go again. What if you change your mind about your name and don't want to draw attention to yourself with that? Also, I think that IN GENERAL we shouldn't ask people for pronouns unless we will need to. If we're at a conference or a meeting and one person will be doing the talking, then we don't need to all introduce ourselves and include our pronouns because more than likely, we won't be talking about each other during that time. For example, I was in such a situation last Friday. We went around in a circle introducing ourselves with name/pronouns. "Hi I'm Ezra and my pronouns are he/him." "Hi I'm Alex and my pronouns are they/them." If someone says "Hi I'm Mark" then don't press them for their pronouns. So, basically, -Normalize introducing yourself with your pronouns. -Don't press people when they don't list their pronouns. Or even their name. -Don't ask for pronouns unless it's likely you will need them.
@@MyNontraditionalLife Always gonna be easier to get people to just move things around between mental categories they already have than to try and add an extra word (or, an extra definition to a word) in their language tbh. Possibly the same part of the mind that rebels so viciously to slang words or such that they're too old to be 'in on'.
If we're already asking the entire world to change I prefer we just obliterate gender pronouns, change languages to not have them. Binary trans woman here. Edit: we could also just add or designate gender neutral pronouns and make them the default and use the gendered ones only for people that we know want us to use them and that we know which ones they prefer.
Pronouns are used instead of names in order to facilitate conversation. We don't need to get rid of pronouns or make them complicated enough to basically become names. Just choose a gender and present as it as best you can. Most people who are decent and reasonable will use the correct pronoun even if they can clock a trans person.
@@mrpotatoh you are assuming what I'm suggesting is somehow super complicated. I suggested to create one, repeat one, set of pronouns that are gender neutral, and option to either have them replace gendered pronouns, which are currently usually two sets of pronouns in addition to object set of pronouns. Or have the gender neutral pronouns be an added option to existing ones but make it the default because you can't tell someone's gender by looking at them. Obviously people seeing my gender isn't working no matter how hard I tried to pass and you can never know non binary people's gender by looking at them because they don't necessarily even try to pass as one of the binary genders. So having one, repeat one, set of pronouns for gender neutral case and make it the default one used for strangers or only option besides object pronouns would be best way to easily avoid misgendering without people having to try and guess your gender. It would make it easy not to misgender anyone. This is the simplest way to get to that place where people wouldn't get misgendered due to inherent limits of the language, you would have to misgender them on purpose or assume their gender on purpose, whereas languages today force you to make a choice and for non passing binary and non binary people that could never work. In Hebrew there aren't even any object pronouns, and objects are assigned he/she. When you study Hebrew you need to memorize which objects are he and which objects are she... Now there is some massive complication of things just to have gendered pronouns everywhere. If something is stupid and harmful in a language, we should change it. Languages are made up and change through history all the time. Why not make them better?
I gotta say that first off, I entirely sympathize with where Natalie was coming from with her tweets. Your analysis of this issue is really excellently put, but as a nonbinary person I can't help but see a ridiculous amount of people on twitter ranging from 'cis and kind of misinformed' to 'full on deniers that nonbinary people exist' using this conflict (and Nat's subsequent deactivation) as justification for their invalidation of nonbinary identities, and that honestly just sucks so bad I don't really know how to conceptualize it. I want to be able to stand firm in the belief that Nat had the right to express her feelings and difficulties in navigating certain spaces as a transwoman, but seeing that it puts me closer to the side of people who actively spread hate towards me and my nonbinary peers leaves an awful taste in my mouth.
On paper I agree. I doubt it will socially work. I'm in Texas and cis. The social repercussions around acknowledging NB or trans existence is sometimes greater than being NB or cis. I know allies should go to arms with the people they align, but the numbers required for this to work in day-to-day life is hard to get. I've had less problems getting people to accept binary trans people than I've had approaching changes in gender related language.
@@vrojalowskisnajolski531 examples of other things Natalie has said or done that you'd like Luxander to discuss. Many people were implying that Natalie had a history of "anti-NB" statements. But I was hoping for specific examples, seeing as Luxander and many other NB fans have said they haven't noticed ANY anti-NB statements. I'd like to know what both sides are missing.
@@8Rincewind actually im interested in seeing a video like this because people seem upset about it but i also don't know specific examples. Then again im not on twitter lol. But yeah id just like to see what everyone finds so freaking offensive for some reason lol
@@genericname8727 this is exactly how I felt about that video. Although I wasn't a huge fan of Baltimore, because of the stereotype thing, but also becuase they were a little 'too' calm. I get what Nat was trying to do. Nonbinary people are frequently portrayed as being stereotypically histrionic. But, I feel like Baltimore was leaning slightly too far into tone policing territory, especially since the creator and performer doesn't share the gender id. I also felt really uncomfy that in the end, the message focused on binary trans people. I've been told that this is because Nat IS binary trans and it's what she knows, which is fair. But if that's the case, why would she go to so much effort to illustrate the non binary experience? It confuses me as both a non binary person and as an artist.
Also NB w/o issues with her non binary comments. I have some issues with the way she addresses catcalling bc I know too many WOC who get really aggressive/scary catcalls. just rubbed me the wrong way I suppose. I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on this.
i've been on a contra rewatch binge lately so I think I know which kind of comments you're talking about and as a WoC who also gets catcalled and knows how majorly it sucks, I sort of get how her jokes about catcalling and how sometimes some catcalling in certain situations isn't awful might send the wrong message, but I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that some catcalls are worse and scarier than others. it just depends on a person's threshold for where the cutoff point between "fine" and "not fine" is. honestly, imo, contra's takes on catcalling, even when she's joking about the catcalls she receives and even when it looks like she's giving some people a pass, is fine. if she doesn't find something scary, she doesn't find it scary, and that doesn't really have much bearing on the catcalls I get and it doesn't place any sort of prescriptive judgment on what I should find scary or not. I guess I just really don't see how Natalie's comments/jokes on her own catcalls are connected to my catcalls, much less other people's catcalls, and unless I'm missing some of her other comments, this seems like a confusing thing to point out about Natalie.
@@cute-pat00t So I see your point and I agree to an extent. I think she is someone with a big platform and she's had a lot of men "transformed" by her videos. I have a couple of friend who had a whole discourse about this, and I took notes + added some as someone who doesn't always pass/ someone who experienced shit before my transition. So basically in the US it can be deadly to fellow native american women when white men especially go to reservations and do this shit. I have heard plenty of scary stories in regards to friends and family that have gone through very traumatic experiences that began with a catcall. I also know in Mexico plenty of women fear for their lives every day and have their blood type, phone number, and name written in sharpie in case they are murdered. I know a lot of women in my community that are latinas that have been assaulted following a catcall. The catcalls themselves may not be as scary, but what follows is. I am both indigenous and latino, so before my transition I did get some weird catcalls by men, but it never got to a super violent place. My friend who is the singer of ASOT also had some issues with Natalie's comment given that she is catcalled on a regular basis, and it's usually really creepy/scary. I have plenty of white friends who have also been catcalled, but my bipoc friends espeically have had a really shitty time with that whole thing. I love Natalie, but I can still disagree and find her problematic. I think it's more on an opinion basis, so it's fine that you disagree with me :)
@@TheLionAndTheMouse like, all of those experiences can be true and valid things to be concerned about and it would still not follow that Natalie's comments are connected to them, pretty much at all. functionally, Natalie's stance that in her experience as a white woman, some catcalls aren't as threatening as others, and that the catcalls that involve being followed around are actually really scary and threatening, really isn't that far off from what you've said so far. Are we really going to take this pretty minor difference of opinion, especially one where the difference mostly comes down to Natalie's own experience and personal reactions to her own catcalls, the ones that don't really belong to other people, and say that it warrants the "problematic" label? It'd make sense if she said or implied something different, like "catcalls don't scare me and other people shouldn't be scared either" or "catcalling is fine actually, I don't see what people are complaining about", because these statements both don't acknowledge how scary and threatening catcalling can and often is, and it makes a pretty irresponsible prescriptive statement on her big platform that is a bad message to send to her largely cis male audience. But to my knowledge she never made or even implied any sort or prescriptive statement that gives men a pass to catcall, making in my opinion the whole connection to the real world violence WoC face... a bit of a stretch? unless I'm missing some sort of implied prescriptive statement here?
I'm cis and I really like this perspective of cis people normalizing the use of pronouns in all spaces in general. A knock on effect this has is that If I open with my pronouns in a space that is hostile to transpeople, it affords those transpeople the opportunity to know if they're going to encounter a bigot without having to expose themselves as trans and be attacked for it. I'm cool with that negative attention being on me, (since I was the one who opening the floor to pronouns) and I prefer that since I think it's an emotional labour cis people can share in to help our trans friends navigate these spaces more safely
I‘m a straight cis man (he/him) who found contrapoints because I was ignorant about anything relating to transgender people. I found out about your channel because I was confused about the contrapoints thing and didn’t know in what way i was ignorant here either. This video told me exactly how I could help. I appreciate it.
I like the idea of having the option to not share your pronouns. My school is amazing, it’s an art school and it’s really inclusive and accepting, but they have been asking for all our pronouns and I always say she/her because i haven’t fully come to terms with myself, especially not enough to announce to the class. I also have a shaved head and I don’t wear a binder so people often ask for my pronouns and it’s so uncomfortable. I just love that idea
Hi! I'm Justin (he/him/his). I teach at a university and would love to hear your perspective on how this should be handled in a classroom. Just today, in fact, we did class introductions (its an English class). I explained my own understanding of the pronoun issue (i.e. that binary-trans people can be made uncomfortable but for NB folk it is an accessibility issue) and then asked that people introduce themselves by name and their pronouns if they wanted. In other words, I made introducing their pronouns optional. I stated my own pronouns first to normalize the whole thing. I would be grateful for any thoughts and/or feedback on this practice, because it won't be the last time I have to figure out what to do! A related but separate point - I have had discussions with people who felt that class introductions with pronouns was a fraught practice for people that were either questioning or unsure of themselves. If it were mandatory to introduce your pronouns, so the argument goes, then for some students it would feel like they are under pressure to out themselves to friends/peers when they may not be ready to. I would also love to hear any thought on this. Thanks!
It's been several years so I don't remember exactly, but I had a professor give us work sheets or something the first day of class that let us fill out our preferred names and pronouns. I feel like it was a good option because it let the professor know if any of us used pronouns other than what would be traditionally expected, but also let us give chosen names or even a preferred nickname. and since it was on paper we didn't have to announce to the class. during class discussion this allowed the professor to take the lead in gendering students as they wished. Allowing folks to choose whether or not they want to disclose pronouns aloud is best by far. Making it mandatory puts people like me in a bad spot where we have only a few moments to decide if we feel safe coming out when we don't know everyone there. if we don't feel safe then we have to deliberately misgender ourselves, which also feels really bad. if it's optional then we have an alternative that doesn't suck as much. the only thing I would add before class intros is saying that you have a zero tolerance policy for racism, sexism, transphobia, etc so that if a student feels like they're being treated badly by other students for any of those things, they can talk to you about it outside of class.
Thank you for this! Your logic is exactly the reason I put my pronouns in my bios as I update them these days. I have a trans son and I completely agree with you.
This is one thing I’ve had an issue with: I work in the service industry, and it’s generally customary to refer to a patron as sir or ma’am out of respect for the patron. Not using that language can get me dirty looks or even professional write ups if a person complains to management, which they have in the past. Contra also mentioned in her tweets how she enjoys a bartender referring to her as miss or ma’am, which is generally customary after that split second interaction. Should I start my interaction with a patron by asking their pronouns? Or by expecting them to volunteer theirs? I’m not sure. Sorry for the wall of text.
What Luxander suggested here was to introduce yourself with your own pronouns. This helps to normalize doing it, and most trans people (and some others) will reply with theirs. If they look at you strangely, you can probably be guided by their presentation.
@@MusingMoss I mean you literally just ignore their point where they say they could get written up or in trouble but whatever. No one has the right to not be uncomfortable. This really just seems like a case-by-case situation where you have to apply different solutions for different individuals. It's not an easy answer but it's the only one that is actually practical.
I would love to have this conversation. Because not even Natalie would say that she is beyond criticism. She uses a format that allows her to critique and challenge herself. And nobody is perfect. I would love to talk in a sane, respectful way and crowd source some discourse and share stories and experiences. But, I’m just a sober cisgay white male. But I also think that’s why I want to hear from everyone. This cancel culture needs to become a cultivated culture. I block people who use dangerous language. Not heated language. We have to learn to encourage discourse, state our case in earnest, and listen to an argument in earnest. I block the GC crowd if they continue to misgendering or make digs at a persons appearance which that observation can be made with out sounding like a MEAN Pit Viper.
thank you very much for making such an effort trying to find solutions! i am truly amazed how much you focus on problemsolving as opposed to some others who just keep talking about problems without trying to find feasible solutions. that is a great trait you have! keep up the good work!
This is why I put my pronouns in my twitter bio. We cis folks have had it pretty easy for the last few thousand years, we can most assuredly meet trans people halfway here. Haven't had to introduce them in person yet because we don't have gendered pronouns in my native language, so don't know how I would handle that situation.
Which language, just out of curiosity? I know Finnish, Turkish and Hungarian all have gender-neutral 3rd person pronouns, and would like to know of any others.
Wow, I'm so glad to here that someone else is doing this. I live in an intentional community and over the last two years this has slowly become the norm. It really does feel comfortable (as nonbinary) for me to see the social change. Two days ago I had someone new to community meet me and introduced herself with her name and pronouns. It gave me the space to tell her my pronouns in a way that felt really good to me.
appreciate the fact that you brought up the real issue here, that it boils down to cis people normalizing sharing pronouns rather than just resting comfortably on cisnormativity, just handing over that aspect of privilege. i also have been re-watching certain videos of natalie's, including her pronouns video and i admittedly kind of forgot that she already laid out all of her feelings more succinctly and more clearly in that video. it kind of just made it that much more odd to me, i guess, that her initial comments blew up the way they did. maybe largely by people do don't regularly watch her videos? idk at this point, other than that i agree that the normalization of sharing pronouns really has to start with cis people normalizing it amongst themselves, which isn't even far off from what the whole original discussion about pronouns was about, anyway - cis people needing to work on their pronoun game instead of pushing it onto trans people.
I think this highlights the problem with Twitter as a social media platform. It doesn't allow enough room for big complex nuanced ideas the way a thirty or forty minute long video can. I too, was surprised by the amount of reactionary backlash to Contrapoints.
Asking or giving your pronouns as a normalized part of social interaction WOULD be a fine solution; except that as noted by you, Contra, and Kat Blaque in practice the only time it happens is when people think they've clocked someone. I like you're suggestion, though
this is what my college does! most ppl are cis so it’s a little odd but as you said, it’s a necessary process that i’m happy is in place as a convention
This is actually the way we teach people to introduce themselves at an LGBTQ undergrad conference I've attended for 3 years! I think you're right and this is the most effective way to be an ally. I think what rubs me the wrong way with being asked my pronouns is the way it feels like something is being demanded of me that I may not want to give. It can feel like outing myself when I don't want to, even if the person asking hasn't clocked me at all and is just "being an ally". This alternate form of inviting someone to tell you their pronouns by example is more appealing. It's polite to respond in kind, but nothing has been demanded of you that you feel you can't avoid. Someone could just not offer their own pronouns in response, and you'd have to assume that they are presenting as what they wish to be preferred by and respect the effort they took to do so.
Whenever I see cis people with their pronouns in their bio on social media, it makes me happy! It normalizes trans people having their pronouns in their bio
It's a good suggestion, and it is absolutely useful for cis people to normalize doing pronoun asking amongst themselves, but we can't ignore when they act Harry Enfield in his gay son sketches, awkwardly trying but in a way that's painful. I feel like my fellow nonbinary folks overlooked that the comment Natalie made was about cis people singling out a trans person by doing a pronoun circle because she was there. That's not good inclusion, it's more akin to a microaggression. Like, Natalie only mentioned us to say 'I guess this could be useful for some people' -- in a comment primarily about her discomfort, she still made space for us, and in saying that was acknowledging that it's not a single dimensional issue-- but people are mad at her for it? Mad because she was pained by something that validates us. This whole things feels to me like another 'you yucked my yum' issue, except deeper of course because we actually /need/ inclusion, but saying 'conflicting access needs' while completely accurate doesn't actually explain the rage. People aren't responding to her needs even existing, they're responding to her not liking the thing that makes them feel good. It's troublesome.
My immideate reaction was discomfort at the idea, not because I dissagree, but because it would be akward, and might create tension. About a second later I realized how selfish that was, given what someone who's not cis puts themselves through when they introduce themselves. The idea that people will only accept me now, if they aprove of the normalization of an introduction that aknowledges people of all genders (or at least don't dissapprove of it), puts me in a simmilar (as in sharing some properties, not like in simmilarily difficult) situation as the very people I would be trying to help, and I realize that this an exemplary case of solidarity in action, and a way to take a tiny bit of the weight from the shoulders of people who are carrying way to much. For once I will be the one who feels like I'm dragging gender into every situation involving introductions, paving the way for those who need that cis people who don't know better have their assumptions about gender shaken a bit. So now my attitude has moved from discomfort to something more like pride that I'm able to help my fellow humans out in this way. Please inform me if I'm being insensitive in my assumptions and descriptions.
Love this. I am non-binary also (they/them) and I didn't think that there was anything wrong with what Natalie said re: pronouns. I think it's REALLY IMPORTANT that non-binary people take the comfort and safety of binary trans people into account. I think we all want to live in a world where our identities are accepted and respected, but I don't want us to step on other trans people to get there! I am trying to introduce myself with my pronouns (when I feel safe enough to do so) in an effort to take the pressure off of other people. Thank you so much for your videos on this topic!
hi!! somehow i've never heard of your channel before the contra/NB twitter discourse. I really love how you both gave an in depth explanation of the problem, offered a unique perspective, and then came out with another full video that was solution focused. serious emphasis on the "solution-focused", what youtuber goes out of their way to do that? subscribed!!!
A note on the closed captions thing, from a fellow ADHD person. I used to struggle with the same issue. Then I started watching foreign films where I needed the captions I found that after watching alot of them captions weren't distracting even when I didn't need them anymore. Idk that works for me but it's whatever just thought I'd throw that out there. I know that's not what this video is about but just thought I'd let you know put that out there
Yes, 100% this!! Thanks for bringing attention to this issue for LGBTNBQ allies! My spouse and I are fairly-traditionally-presenting cis people these days. He frequently attends and speaks at professional conferences in his industry, and after discussing this very issue with some trans and nonbinary folks at some of these events, he's started adding his pronouns to his conference name tags with Sharpie. Bear in mind, he is a bearded, muscular, deep-voiced dude, and literally zero percent of the population would ever expect his pronouns to be anything but masculine. But declaring his pronouns in cis spaces has prompted several discussions with people who want to be allies to the trans/NB community but aren't sure what they can do on an individual level to help. I've also started including my pronouns when introducing ourselves to new people as a matter of course. It's really simple to say "Hi, I'm Jade, She/Her pronouns, please," the way you might say, "I'm Jade, I have two kids and I work at an animal shelter." It's just giving the other person a little information about yourself at the start of a conversation, and as a cis person, it also signals to the other person that you are an LGBTNBQ ally -- whether they like it or not. Personally, we've never had anything but positive reactions from anyone, but we do hang in pretty liberal circles. Anyway, I really do hope this catches on as standard etiquette -- it truly is a thing that cis allies *have* to do for their trans/NB friends and family because they just don't have the numbers to normalize this behavior. Yes, it feels awkward the first couple of times you do it, but if you stick with it and are consistent, it just becomes A Thing You Do, and the world is that much safer and happier every time you do it.
I think that's a great idea. There is a flaw because not everyone actually introduces themselves so sometimes you use pronouns before a formal intro and idk how to fix that.
The algorithm did a good thing for once! Just found your channel, and it's been great to hear your perspective and learn from you. As a very cis, very male cis male, I hadn't ever given much thought to introducing myself with pronouns, but this video has given me an excellent reason to do just that, even in spaces that appear to be all cis people. I hope to learn much more from your channel on how to be an effective supporter and ally to lgbt and nb people. Thanks, and take care.
This is a good idea, but I find it difficult to convince the average cis person that pronouns truly matter to some people. A lot of people in my experience (cis people) see pronouns as simply words, and don't really apply that much meaning to them outside of "well that's just normal to call a girl she, and a boy he" To start, the average Joe and Mary should understand that pronouns mean a lot for many people, then we can start introducing the idea that introducing ourselves with pronouns is helpful. As a cis person, I always found it weird to actually say that I go by he/him, since it's just what I go by, but it took me a while to realize that it means much more to many people, and after learning about those people (trans/NB people), I have come to understand the importance of these things.
Thank you for making this video! (I’m now a new subscriber) I am a cis woman and I was having a conversation about this topic with two other cis people, one female and one male. I was telling them the same thing, it’s our job to normalize pronouns introduction too. Until cis people can have a comprehension of pronouns and change our culture to be more inclusive we won’t have real, progressive change. The cis people I was talking to were talking with a ‘in a perfect world’ perspective. Like, “why can’t we just let people alone and be who they are,” which I agree with, however it’s kind of the same idea about “I don’t see color.” Our society doesn’t address the importance of people’s gender or sexuality, therefore discouraging the lgbtq communities to talk about their perspective, pronouns, etc. Just like POC don’t feel comfortable to talk about their perspective on race in a majority white space because white America isn’t sensitive to the struggle poc go though or the history behind it. If we just ‘ignore’ a persons gender/preferred pronouns, we won’t create a space where everyone feels like they are encouraged to be who they are and share their experiences. And if cis people don’t hear about another persons experience with gender, how will we evolve to a more inclusive mindset? Just my thoughts.
I’m a cis person, and I will make every effort to do this in all of the cis spaces I inhabit. This sounds like a good solution to me because it makes the privileged group responsible for solving the problem we have created and are perpetuating. Thanks for this video. I don’t think that this would have actually occurred to me otherwise.
That was really well done and articulated in a way I’ve not been exposed to yet. As a cis guy it’s hard to tell what the solution is but what you’ve said pretty well describes what ought to be a serious part of the conversation. Thanks for the new perspective.
It was nice to hear an actual non-binary person's response to this whole thing. So many of the people weighing in for/against Contra aren't the people who would actually be affected by it.
I don't think that solution is as clean-cut as it may seem but I do thank you for being one who presents a clear approach for a solution as opposed to just shouting only the problem, outcomes, and accusations as many people do. No macro solution is really going to fix the diverse nature of people. Guarantee someone is still coming out offended, displaced, or flawed in response. Whenever you try to solve one of human's habits, flaws, beliefs, or behaviors, then you will inevitably end up creating a new problem. So you go for the best trade off you can. Obviously, There is no magic bullet to this issue. It's best to try to handle it in the immediate environment using the settings of those involved in that immediate circle in order to create a productive environment. Any norm you create will become problematic somehow beyond that smaller circle just because of the - although cliche but very real- reality that not one size fits all. I wouldn't exactly remove yours and broader community from the equation. They play a vital role if tact accounts for both. If A+B = C.....and the equation is the experience and A= one group and B= is another group...you can't solve the equation without the other to find a productive C incorporating both. If the solution is made too complicated, then no one prefers to participate or will inevitably mess up more often. If kept too simple, then someone gets left out but it's the more enticing because it's simple (creatures of convenience). So a solution has to fit the very real human needs and behaviors of those directly involved. Pardon the long-winded way of responding to all this. Anyway, just my two cents. Good stuff you have.
Thank you for this call to action. Imma cis gay boi and a wannabe trans ally. Been failing horribly. The comment about putting my and other cis people’s comfort to the side in order to help trans people hit hard. I needed that...tho, being fully honest, I don’t know how long it will take me to have the courage to do this. Kinda shy, very non-confrontational. I’m imagining getting into a debate with every stranger I see. All that said, this solution truly seems like the best one💗
I know this video is pretty old but this was really helpful!! I'm a cis woman who's always been kind of ambivalent about giving my pronouns (I'll happily do it, but oftentimes I won't see an actual "need" to do so if that makes sense). However your explanation of normalization being a way to remove discomfort from enbies and trans people completely convinced me. Definitely gonna start doing this now, thank you!!
I'm a cis-het male in my 40s, so I'm going to be "an old dog learning a new trick" regarding including pronouns in my introductions. I'm also new to your channel, I found it while searching for info on the situation with Contrapoints/Natalie Wynn. But your suggestion sounds good, so I'll have to give it a go. I suspect my future grandkids will feel introducing with pronouns is normal but I will need to work on it a lot for the foreseeable future (so much patience with me will be most welcomed LOL). Thanks again for your thoughtful post - sincerely, a new subscriber.
LUXANDER! I have really appreciated both the previous video and this video on this topic - I think your thoughts are well rounded! HOWEVER, completely off topic - the calendar behind you is set to September 2018 in this and the last video - it’s been a little trippy for me!
What about getting rid of gendered pronouns, period? Gendered pronouns are not the rule of every language. For example, the Estonian language doesn’t distinguish genders. There is no he/she/them; one word covers it all. It may be difficult to settle on what that pronoun would be, but it seems like this would make things easier in the long run. I use she/her, but honestly the moment anyone tries to box me into the “woman” group I get paranoid that they’re not paying attention to who I really am. I’m a feminine-presenting straight woman who doesn’t want kids and takes on stereotypically masculine roles in relationships, like being the household ‘handyman’ and jokester. Yet ever since I can remember, who I am and what I want out of life has been heavily assumed by those around me because of my “womanhood”. Boxing people in, in any way shape or form, signals alarm bells in my brain. Hearing you say that you wanted to make this a norm by encouraging everyone to introduce themselves along with their preferred pronouns was strangely triggering for me. I don’t know what the right answer is, but doing what you’re suggesting despite it triggering the trauma my gender subjected me to in my religious cult upbringing doesn’t feel like a minor inconvenience that I can suffer through for the sake of others around me, like you do with movie captions. It’s something that I’ve been in the process of healing from for years. It brought me to the brink of death with depression. None of us never will ever know what everyone’s past is, and what our well-meaning comments might trigger in others. None of this is easy.
This video and your last on Contra were the first I have seen of your content, but I am impressed with the thought put into it. I hear so many people whose only exposure to NB or Non-Conforming are that loud vocal minority of walking triggered hashtags and I like having grounded thoughtful voices to present in the face of that. Speaking from the binary trans spectrum, I wouldn't know how to resolve this. Most days I'm happy to take the proverbial bullet, but that is me specifically in this place in time. I am feeling pretty good in my skin these days and it's not much of a dent in my armor to have my pronoun asked for NB/NC folks. Most days, existing as an easily understood, typically passing white male gives me a damn good buffer to take on some of the discomfort for others in the community. Some days I'm dysphoric AF and one tiny impression of being clocked will put me in bed for the week and I would probably make the same kind of vent Natalie did. That doesn't mean I want things changed to suit my specific need, it just means I need to have a human moment. I agree that this would rely on the cis community. Like relying on men (in the general sense) to take feminist values into male dominated spaces. I don't know how long that is going to take. It could take a couple of generations to completely normalize these kinds of ideas. It's still something that could help and I don't see how it hurt anything to roll in along with the idea that it's alright if the answer isn't always the same. In the meantime, I think it's important that within the LGBTQ+ community as a whole that we work at not being turned against each other or feeling like one of segment of our community is putting the rest of us at risk.That is something that we can do for ourselves. I would like to see our community get to a place where questions to understand where a person is coming from are the knee jerk response to things like this. A human being in our community is hurting and needs to vent. We have all been there. Sometimes we're going to have to take the hurt for each other, and be willing to focus our blame on the situation - one where everyone can do right and it still sucks - and not each other. Again, great video Lux, got a new follower.
I'm really REALLY glad to see people taking about solutions instead of fighting. Thanks for bringing the conversation to that point. I'd be curious what more trans people who feel alienated and uncomfortable with the practice of announcing pronouns have to say about possible solutions. I agree it would be ideal if it was normalized to the degree you're describing I'm still not sure everyone would be on board. Partially because the road to that is long and painful for some--I think we're alteady on step 1 of this idea. The concept so far has only spread to progressive spaces and that's what this whole issue was about in the first place. So this probably isn't a short term solution by any means. I also worry that if it did become that normalized for cis people, you could run into the problem of a stealth or closeted trans person being shamed into do this because people think they are cis. You could still run into trans people being forced to misgender themselves if they're not out yet because it's the social norm. Personally I find it helpful when my friends make a point to introduce me and talk about me using my pronouns in a causal way. I also like when discord servers have the option of adding pronouns to your profile. Name tags at events with pronouns are also great... basically I'm fan of anything where I don't feel like I have to say something out loud and invite a whole conversation lol Hopefully as time goes on the thing that gets normalized along sharing pronouns would be NOT asking invasive questions or making assumptions. Because personally I think that's why I'm not inclined to share that I'm nonbinary with people very often IRL. I've had countless people ask me invasive questions about my body and my sex life and it's triggered my dysphoria and PTSD. So much so that all I want in the world is to just get by passing as a binary dude at this point to minimize my discomfort. Anyway I hope this discussion continues in our community and everyone weighs in and focuses on solutions rather than getting angry. Again, thank you. I think all of your videos are thoughtful and compassionate and I love that about your channel.
I have independently been dealing with this question for some time now, in the context of an old MMO / online community wherein actual sex / gender realities are hidden, while in-game sex is defined visually. It made me uncomfortable inherently, to choose pronouns when speaking of a third person in conversation, so I originally defaulted to character sex, the on-screen cue... That did not satisfy of course and eventually I went to neutral terminology and of course found that as pertains any third-person reference, they did not fail or at least sufficed in assuaging my apprehensions using specific terms for people I had not ever met in person... This solution of your is amazing and I certainly will do my best to evolve it in to my experiments with gender language, which is just one of many aspects of but a feature of a trait of the human condition. Hopefully this is useful or I've wasted peoples' time, but as to inspiration, I just found it edifying to hear your thought process and it be so close to my experience in the same area, which I had to fight a tiny bit for people to see my point of using certain gender-specific language and tacts... Also know the era in which I was running these forays in to gender language issues was dead center of Gamergate and...well...prob nuff said lol.
Natalie has written literally thousands upon thousands of tweets, and now they're all gone. So unless you can find someone who obsessively screencapped all her tweets, you're never going to be able to reliably analyze her words. I could be one of her fanboys and therefore share only the screencapped tweets that cast her in a positive light, or I could be one of her detractors and only share tweets that might make her look bad. Shit can be taken all sorts of ways when you don't have enough context. So as well-intentioned as your proposal is, I don't see it working well. But I do like your idea about cis people introducing themselves with their pronouns, though widespread adoption will be a monumental undertaking. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it's going to take a concerted effort by trans and NB folks as well as their cis allies to make it work, and it will be a long journey before it become normalized. But I'm willing to take that first step :)
It's likely her account has been backed up on WayBackMachine or similar--she has enough supporters and haters to be a good candidate for "obsessive internet documentation" by 3rd parties. Many high-profile people on Twitter are subject to bots that collect every tweet so even things they delete immediately are kept in the public record.
This is not a solution b/c it will never happen. Cis people do not want to have to share their "pronouns" any more than anyone else does. We would also just like to be assumed to be what we look like.
I really like online communities like discord because most every server I’ve been on, pronouns have been part of the intro process. That is of course bc we can’t see each other and clock each other, but it’s nice
I...love this idea. There have been times when I have wondered if a person I am talking to has a preferred pronoun but I hate to ask, because what if a) that means I have unintentionally clocked someone and ruined their day, or b) is some one with unintentional gender ambigous presentation and I have completely ruined their day.
I would like to see you talk about the other things about Natalie if you get the info you need. Also I a cis but I would be more than happy to say, Hi I am Burningshadows and I use She/Her, I think the biggest issue is that getting EVERYONE to do this will be hard and I live in the bible belt so it is an uphill battle but I do try to do what I can to make someone else feel comfortable. I deal with PTSD but also social anxiety and I would absolutely HATE causing someone else anxiety. There have been times when I wasn't sure but the person was wearing a name tag so I was like Hi! I Love you name, it's so pretty/nice/etc. I hate the idea of asking because I do know for some people it makes things worse and I don't want to be that person that ruined someone's day because I messed up.
Great video! I agree that I feel like I'm outing myself every time I introduce myself with my pronouns and no one else does. Advocacy has to come from a position of strength, and that's how cis people can be real allies to trans/NB folks. One addendum I would make is that depending on the circumstances, it can be appropriate to ask someone GNC/trans about their pronouns in private where you don't risk making them feel like an outcast/like you're outing them. EDIT: I would suggest that a cis person re-introduce their pronouns before asking the trans/NB/GNC person about theirs.
Cis guy here. You are absolutely right and you convinced me. Since watching this video last month, I've done this a few times and I'm going to continue. I'm a little nervous about being seen as someone "trying too hard to seem woke", so -- and I hope people don't think this makes light in a bad way -- I introduced myself to some new people (and I was wearing a mini skirt at the time, so it may have helped) like this: "My name's Anthony. He/him. Ravenclaw." And the other three cis people told me their names, pronouns, and houses, and we got into a long discussion -- that I'm only now realizing has parallels -- about whether you can claim more than one Hogwarts House (general consensus: yes).
I think it's worth emphasising that Natalie never said this was anything more than a minor inconvenience and one she was happy to deal with for the greater good. I'm relatively new to her videos but I've seen most of them now and she always seems NB positive.
We really are on the cusp of a new era when it comes to gender. And I'm NOT just talking about trans, NB and GNC people. Even straight cis people are entering a long overdue birth of freedom when it comes to gender. I stopped cutting my son's hair when was he like 3 (he can't tolerate it). One day I just said to myself, "Why am I putting him through this? Because he's a boy? I have long hair, his sister has long hair, and his father has long hair. I'm done torturing him to meet someone else's expectations." When he first went to school it was a problem. People would sometimes send him home in a ponytail for instance, even though they never felt the need to do that with my daughter who is only one year younger. Wait staff in restaurants would always ask me "what my girls would like" when they took our order. He's 15 now, so his obviously male body solves that problem, even though his hair is down to his butt. But I don't think it's ONLY that. I think that it's becoming easier for cis straight people now to present their gender in more individualized ways. And we have trans people to thank for that, in large part. Because that's what finally started the conversation. When my son was born, a boy with hair that long would be branded a hippy or a metal head. Now he's just a boy with long hair because...he doesn't need a 'because' anymore. So yeah, as a cis woman who's seen benefits in my own life from the exploration of gender norms, I'm on board with meeting people half way as this gender revolution continues. Not sure if I agree 100% with your specific suggestion, but yeah - this isn't just about trans and NB folks. It's a good thing for ALL of us.
Hey, I absolutely adore this! I discovered you through the other contrapoints video, and found your insight very useful. you seem so intelligent and I really appreciate that you're understanding. I'd love to start doing the pronoun introductions, but I'm a closeted trans man and it would make me really uncomfortable to introduce myself with she/her. I really love this concept though, and I truly do hope that it becomes the norm.
We recently had this discussion at my work because I pointed out that during meetings, they ONLY shared pronouns when I was there. After telling HR that I was NOT out to my co-workers. I'm not saying sharing your pronouns is bad, I agree that it needs to be normalized by cis people and appreciate your note on trans people sharing if they want to. I just think that people (generally, not you specifically) need to learn that it's okay to correct people. It doesn't have to be a big deal for either party. Especially when it comes to people who you already know/have previously met. A girl I know recently came out as trans, and asked if I would correct people if they were talking about her. This was in a pretty trans friendly space, and she had been pretty active. When people would say he/her deadname and I would correct them, people would try to turn the conversation into one about her transition. It didn't need to change the subject. People would ask "since when?" when it didn't really matter. I think many people, myself included, just don't want to be in the spotlight. Binary trans people feel in the spotlight when they feel outed by having to say their pronouns. Some NB people feel that way too, especially when they feel like they have to educate strangers about their pronouns. Trying to find a balance for everyone is just hard while it's still not normalized.
Thank you for this! As someone who is cis and has enjoyed many of Natalie's videos, I would very much like to see your critique of her work from the non-binary perspective. Another non-binary person told me that they found some of her work to be triggering for them due to being sick of the erasure of enby folk but did mention that she targets her work towards cis people and hence it acts as a good stepping stone. I would love to see your take on it so I can educate myself better and get to see a different and well-thoughtout critique as you have shown in your videos. Thank you so much for your work xo.
Well I kind of feel that non binary people are constantly and openly trying to erase normal trans people. I mean they co opt trans groups and the demand everything is changed to fit them. to the point that normal trans people are pushed out and sometimes even unwelcome. I see it on many of the comments demanding that gender pronouns should be asked to everyone at the start or that society should default to "they". If that is not openly trying to erase or invalidate binary people to suit their own views of gender then I do not know what is. I personally fundamentally disagree with these peoples views on gender in fact it would completely invalidate my identity and experiences as a individual if it were true and I think its actually closer to the opposite of my believes on the matter, yet they want to be considered trans and be in the same groups and talk for me. Its their way or no way, they have no patience for anyone else, They think gender so differently and want different rules but they do not want a different group they desperately want to be know as trans. I have already had to deal with negative consequences in real life from the misconceptions they have created.
Cishet here, I see absolutely no way this will directly harm us so I don't see why we shouldn't try it. And to any else like me reading this, I would ask you to do the same. Yeah, it might be a tad uncomfortable, but let's be real. We can handle being the ones that are uncomfortable for once.
very clear video! i'm happy to see someone else drew the same conclusion as i did. the problem occurs because people that take the recommendation "don't assume people's gender and pronouns!" to mean "ask people for their pronouns when i can't easily assume them" - which itself is an expression of the cisnormative nature of our society. dismantling that by making pronoun introductions a thing for everyone and not just trans/nonbinary folks will serve to improve everyone's experience. with regards to natalie of contrapoints, i myself as a nonbinary person haven't really had problems with her? i enjoy her videos enough, and have noticed some lack of true understanding of nonbinary folks but a lot of intention to learn and improve. knowing a lot of other enby folks have issue with her makes me wonder if i've missed some important things. i don't really pay attention to her twitter so that could be why. it could be helpful for you to examine the issues people have with her and discuss them in a broader context of how nonbinary folks are misunderstood/treated. also i wonder if the treatment of trans women and how that factors into the way she's scrutinized (if that happens to be relevant) might be worth touching on.
I just call ppl by their name until they use a pronoun naturally in conversation and then that’s what I use. I’m a cis bi girl from a multicultural family so people assuming my sexuality and race happen all the time, I know it’s not the same feeling being expressed but I can empathize because of my lot in life. I absolutely love Contrapoints and I hope she does a video on cancel culture next, she is an amazing philosophical creator and I really want to she her thrive. I feel like a lot of us in the LGBT community are so used to ppl saying messed up things about us and to us that now we are fighting all the time and when one of our own says something a lil off we are all so ready to fight that we react to them the same way we would a bigot. If there is no way that we can express ourselves then perfect “wokeness” then the community will cease to exist we need to be compassionate instead of retaliatory. Love is Love this has been my ted talk have a nice day
I caught this video late, but I think you're right. It's could be a great solution, and like you said gives people a choice. My only concern (and this is getting really hypothetical because it's dependent on this actually becoming normalised) is that if it becomes absolute social convention, to the point that cis people are expecting it of other people they perceive as cis (which will be most people they interact with) , and it's somewhat considered rude not to reciprocate, then if a cis person thinks someone who is non-binary is cis, it might put them in a position where they are expected to give pronouns when maybe they don't want to, and just want to get on with their day without announcing their non-binary identity 24/7, maybe for safety reasons, unless we can kill transphobia on the same timeline. Granted, as a binary trans girl, I don't know how frequent it is that non-binary people want their non-binary status to be acknowledged all the time.. it's very different as I just want none of my trans identity to be realised by anyone unless it's on my terms, even though I'm out and proud and open about it. But I can see how that's maybe reversed for non-binary people as their identity might feel erased if what makes them trans isn't seen or acknowledged. Anyway, great vid :) thanks
Would appreciate you doing another video on Natalie. I'm a big fan of hers, and I've found her occasional tapping into NB perspectives as an NB person myself. That said, interested in critique and your perspective!
I really appreciate how much thought you've put into this. It breaks my heart in a way, because although in theory, your solution sounds great, I just don't see it happening on a larger societal level. You make a distinction between binary and non-binary people... But even within that binary, there is so much diversity of opinion! So, I guess what I'm wondering is, how do we balance the need for group solidarity with individual needs?
Really good and proactive way that as a cis person I can do to make more comfortable for trans (and to be honest a lot of cis people who get misgendered)
Thank you for this further contribution to the discussion! I would add one caveat to what you've been saying. I don't think it is an issue just for people who might "appear" to be gender-nonconforming or who are gender-ambiguous in their presentations. No matter what I try to do with my gender presentation--and I generally just go for comfort and try to wear non-gender-restricted clothing items--everyone tends to decide I must be "male" because of my height. I can be in full female presentation with make-up and everything, and I'm still determined by others as "male" because I am over six feet tall. When I was younger, someone thought I was a "very tall girl" one time, but that's it. This would be wrong for me, and I've gone through the trouble of changing my birth certificate and everything. So, even beyond normalizing pronouns with introductions (and there are a lot more e-mail signatures and also conference registrations and name tags that give pronouns these days, I've noticed--and it was cis people that I saw doing it most often initially, interestingly enough!), we also just need to start assuming as-a-whole that we do not know what anyone's gender is unless and until they tell us, and should therefore not assume anyone's pronouns. I suspect you know this already, but the way you expressed it seemed to indicate that it is only an issue for those who may appear to be more gender-ambiguous or androgynous in their presentation, at least according to the common assumptions of such.
I love your opinions and I would like to get more opinions on the ContraPoints drama, me being a mostly cis bi having a trans friends who had issues with this discourse and drama- even though I personally did not see problems with it. But again- my perspective is very different than the ppl who take issue with it. I’d live to hear an Enbie’s perspective.
Great video! Kudos to you for your incredibly well thought out response with some viable solutions! I fully support the normalization of respectfully asking cis, (binary) trans, gender queer, NB trans folk for preferred pronouns- but also believe give me option to opt out if they uncomfortable stating or still figuring out what those are .
I sensed that "comfort" for cis people like me is just dealing with gender by default where we're so wrong in the way we treat people based on gender. And it feels somewhat uncomfortable but I wanna get better and I believe eventually, I will, if persisting in trying to be supportive.
I’m absolutely not gonna lie I didn’t know what you were talking for a while. I saw the title of this video and thought it was about how to make Contra Dancing pronouns more accessible..... 🤠🙃
I'm nonbinary and I prefer they/them pronouns for myself, but am also comfortable with she/her. I'm AFAB, and mostly use she/her pronouns in work spaces when I'm freelancing (I work with new people every single gig, and don't want to have the pronoun conversation every day before I can do my work). My email signature reads [they/them or she/her]. The people who most often misgender me, are binary trans folks. Often even after we've done a name and pronoun circle. I introduce myself as "Bode, they/them," and later that day, people are he/himing me. I understand that it's trans folks trying to affirm me or something, but it's taught me one thing, pronoun circles are pretty useless. When they're that big that everyone forgets anyway, there isn't much point I feel. The only thing I've really seen help at conferences, meetings, etc, are name & pronoun tags you stick to your shirt. That's cool, because then cis people are invited to write theirs down, and it's normalized. But pronoun circles I've found to be largely useless. People wont remember all of what is said, and will just default to what they've read me as before I even speak.
Normalising giving our asking for pronouns when you're not sure is the problem. Normalising everyone giving pronouns regardless of surety is absolutely the solution! This is why I'm so happy when cis people put pronouns in their Twitter bio! I'm one hundred percent with you!
That's entirely the problem. Your method normalises guessing and only asking in certain situations, which explicitly calls out people who don't pass It explicitly others an entire set of people. What's the harm in normalising giving your pronouns? Why not make it as normal as giving a short or nick name when giving your full name on introductions?
I'd love it if you could dive deeper into the whole ordeal, because I don't even know where to begin looking and don't think I'm equipped to see where the problem is by myself if there is one.
I think you are 100% correct. I'm on a discord run by popular cis youtubers and they all have pronoun tags for themselves. It is possible to ask for cis allies to do this!! It comes down to cis people having more influence in society and us having to not tear each other apart, but actual address the issue, which is their standards that they have placed on us. Instead of dissecting Natalie's tweets, why not offer a nonbinary position on issues that she has addressed as a binary transperson? I would love you to dissect trans-trenders, the alt right and trans issue, and those sort of dialogues. Continually tearing apart tweets doesn't feel productive for us, in my opinion.
I agree with the accessability conflict angle and I liked the CC movie watching analogy. Here is one amendment to that though, should CC be force to be turned on when it is known that there are no hearing impaired in the room and it is disruptive? The seemingly obvious answer is no, but to think like that is to accept certain assumptions about people and continues to keep people in a third status even if unconsciously . I think that was ultimately what Contra was saying, "we are forcing CC to be on even though no one needs it and it is not just unnecessary at that moment, but distracting." And the answer seems to be to keep CC on all of the time. Now, full disclosure, I am a binary trans woman and I support and engage in Pronoun introductions even though in 99.9999999999% of the time I am the only trans person in the room and I can tell you I know how she feels. Again, before I get dog piled, I support, defend, and participate in this practice with cis people to help them think about these issues and yes, it does make me personally uncomfortable and othered every time.
Also, as for Natalie in general....I think people need to remember that we have all been problematic. All of us. Four years ago Natalie identified as a cisgender dude. She has walked a helluva road in a relatively short period of time, I mean her identity has changed more in a couple years than mine has in two decades. That leaves her with a lot of learning to do, a lot of unpacking to do, and a lot of growing to do all on its own. I went back recently and watched some of the earliest vids and they flat out say the opposite of what I know Natalie believes now. My point being that we have evidence that she is growing and changing and learning.
I guess I feel like there are FAR better people to drag out there. I mean, did Sargon of Akkaad dematerialize and leave us with no one else to rant about? I'm not saying that we shouldn't point things out which are harmful. We absolutely need to - as a mobility disabled wheelchair user, I do it all gatdamned day. But when someone says, "oh, shit, I'm sorry. I never thought of it that way" or "oh, I totally didn't mean to dismiss you. What I was trying to say was actually ________" I am going to bid them adieu and let it lie, even if I don't think our interaction turned them into the latest disability activists.
If we roast everyone who missteps on the road to Perfect Progressive, we are going to discourage a lot of voices from being heard - this culture of one and you're done discourages a LOT of non-NT people I know from even really using social media. They are so afraid that their processing or communication differences will lead them to misstep that they just don't engage. Not to mention that even NT people were new to every idea at some point. We are all supposed to be getting better and more educated and becoming stronger allies and activists all the time, which by definition means we all have places we can improve.
👏 👏 👏
I also remember her mentioning in a very early video that at one point she was a shitposter at a young age, and then learned to broaden her horizons and see things from other people's points of view. No one is born perfect, but she tries, and keeps trying.
@@psukebariah3435 yeah, plus... put together all the people roasting her... how many you get that did a quarter of what she has done?
👍. I saw that some people had the impression that Contrapoints fans were saying she was above criticism, and I didn't see much of that. I mean get it, I'm a big fan of Natalie but some do take it a bit too far. But there was a lot of strawmanning going around and harassment, and it was terrible to see so much focused on her. Some couldn't see the difference between defending her and appealing for calm.
Kimmaline Not just that, the whole concept of ‘one and done’ means you’re gonna run out of allies real quick. To add to this, let’s talk tactics for a moment, because unfortunately everything is political and tactical to some degree, the right wing reactionaries are ascendant right now. The US is teeetiering on the brink of outright fascism. Brazil basically is, though there’s resistance there). The UK is lead by a reactionary. Australia is lead bya coalition of parties otht increasingly resembles the Republican party circa 2012-2014. There’s a terrifyingly high likelihood that Macron in France will be replaced by Le Pen.
There has never been a more crucial time for tactical unity, even if we have our differences. Disagreements amongst ourselves are fine. We’re human, they’re going to happen. And of course there’s a certain threshold beyond which certainly, we do have to seriously think about whether to include someone in a movement. One thing I would remind allies, and the LGBT community in general, is that the right wing are ruthless. They’re bad faith actors. They’ll exploit any drama in our ranks to divide and wedge the left to weaken us and prise us apart. Sargon has already commented on this matter. And he was smart and tactical about it. He made himself sound almost reasonable. NOw, we know he’s not, we’ve seen what he does. But mark my words, some will be fooled. This cancel culture drives people away, it keeps people quiet, it burns people out. People who may be our strongest allies will give up because they know, if they just say the wrong combination of words, they’ll just be tossed out to pasture.
Let me emphasise again, and again, and again. Were Contra’s words perfect? No. Could they have been better?Probably.
Honestly, this is part of why I basically don’t use twitter. I think it’s a terrible means of communication for this sort of thing. It doesn’t lend itself to nuance.
And we need nuance back to solve this. This is going to be difficult in a world with very right/wrong thinking being the order of the day.
If someone is genuine, and willing to learn, I’ll forgive them a thousand times. If they’re clearly being disingenuous, I’m much less forgiving, but I always explain why.
On a side note. be careful with gossip and conspiracy theories. These can be the seeds that destroy a movement. Cointelpro used these back in the 60s against the civil rights movement and even womens rights movements. Have a very, very high bar for such things. Demand proof. I only mention this because on one video I saw on the Contrapoints situation, there was someone claiming Contra was a CIA plant. Call me naive, but that seems unlikely. NOt that they wouldn’t try to infiltrate a movement mind you. Contra just doesn’t seem the sort. And also, just throwing that accusation around can be highly damaging. Don’t do it unless you can back it up with evidence, folks.
I'm also a nonbinary person who was mostly fine with Natalie's comments. I think your response was really mature, well-thought out and measured. I really appreciate hearing someone else saying the kind of things I'm thinking and saying and getting a lot of backlash from other nonbinary people about. Thanks
Feminine leaning Enby here. I also can see why some might find Natalie's comments insensitive, but I found nothing wrong with them. Especially if you know anything about Natalie's TH-cam stuff. We have so few advocates that can effectively communicate with nuance and humor as Natalie does. She is one we can't afford to lose.
I'm also non-binary and was not offended by what Natalie said.
Same here.
Also non-binary (I prefer the term gender-queer, but same difference) and I have no problem with Natalie’s comment. Why? Because when the circle come around to me, my answer is “use whatever pronouns you’re comfortable with.” It’s literally impossible to misgender me
is the main problem being clocked on itself or is the way people may treat you afterwards what triggers the disforia? i haven’t meet many trans people IRL sorry if it sounds ignorant 😬 i needed to ask
As someone that has worked in a LOT of call centers i can tell you that misgendering anyone makes them upset. Call a woman sir she might be asking for a sup in the next sentence. We tend to lose that sir ma'am thing preeeeetty fast and we learn to talk around pronouns. :/ sometimes i have no idea if pat is short for patrick or patricia but we get along fine. Maybe we should do that its not like english is super gendered the way spanish or german are.
It's so validating when someone on the phone assumes I'm female and calls me ma'am, it tells me my voice is not completely beyond helping. Luckily i haven't been called sir in 10 years, thank god
@@BothHands1 i was called ma'am even before i transitioned. XD
My voice is high even tho i was assigned male at birth. And thats the case for a lot of latinx people. Well people in general even english speakers etc. So there can be someone on the line im sure is a woman and if its a cis man or any man they tend to not want to keep their cable service. That said if its a situation where you prefer to be gendered ill oblige, it's just a trick of the trade that i picked up
artemismeow oh for sure, i was just giving my perspective, but i definitely agree that neutral is the safer option. It's orders of magnitude less uncomfortable to be referred to with neutral pronouns than it is to be referred to by male ones. I was lucky to get on hormones at age 17, well i got a job and ordered them online from New Zealand. But even before that, it was about 50/50 between ma'am and sir. But unfortunately I've been a smoker for 16 years, so i do have to do the work to make sure things don't go backwards for me.
Yup, the right pronoun is not that easy in german, when she/her and they/them are the same word. Also, all our nouns are gendered, so most nouns describing people have a female and a male form. Like actress/actor in english. There are some efforts to make the language more inclusive for nonbinary and intersex people, but it's not that easy and the "anti-PC" crowd goes berserk.
@@palimpalim9757 im learning german so this part has been super challenging. XD
Uhm but yea we have an amazing take in latinx communities ...ahem!:
"The use of gender neutral words like Latinx is equivalent to colonialism by language"
If we know the history of latin America the statement is laughable at best or extremely cynical at worst.
:/
I'm Icelandic, and in my language (and others) this is really easily accomplished, as a standard introductory greeting need only change from 'Ég er Anna' (I am Anna) to 'Ég er hún Anna' (I am she Anna)- this is already a perfectly normal way of introducing someone else: 'Þetta er hún Anna' (This is she Anna). Unfortunately English is a bit...clunkier.
You should all just learn Icelandic, I think that would be easiest. Also, I'm mostly a 'she', but I don't really care all that much if I get misgendered, which happens regularly.
in portuguese it can be done too! it may sound a bit different at first, but not at all gramatically wrong.
This makes a lot of sense to me. Being gay, it has helped tremendously that even straight people have adopted "partner" and "SO" so ubiquitously. Even when there's no apparent reason for them to avoid using "husband" or "wife," the fact that so often these days they use gender neutral terms really goes far in making me feel more comfortable using gender neutral language for my own situations.
Great point! It's funny, actually I was meeting a new colleague at work today and he (although I shouldnt have assumed pronouns) started talking about his husband. ' He was like me and my husband blah' I did falter slightly ( I need to stop assuming everyone is cishet.) but I know that many LGBT people wouldn't have been as comfortable expressing a few years ago. Ime colleagues have always used 'partner' or 'SO', which signified to me they are LGBTQ without having to say.
@@lillustpotion I use spouse all the time, and I like SO or partner because it also takes away the marriage aspect. I grew up fundementalist and marriage was made into this very religious thing for me. Calling my spouse my SO or partner helps take the religious aspect away.
This was one of the reasons I've adopted calling my girlfriend my partner to everyone. It's such a small change but I think it makes a huge difference in terms of changing the zeitgeist.
Josiah McCarthy that’s interesting, cause I always interpreted that as the heteros appropriating it now that they thought it was cool. It would annoy the shit out of me, kinda like how they always seem to end up at our bars and clubs these days lol
As a non-binary person, this rings true to me too.
Hi! My name is Laura, she/her. I'm willing to be an awkward cis person for the cause and introduce myself with pronouns, hell I'm awkward anyway. At my work some of us put that info in our email signatures, it helps with figuring out pronouns for non English names too. Thanks for being you and making these videos!!!
I've been thinking about doing the email signature thing for a while. definitely taking this action now though! such a simple step.
Hey, I'm also Laura, she/her, and awkward as well ^_^
Hi Laura -- Anthony, he/him -- and I agree with the streamlined format of "[Name], [pronouns]", rather than saying "my pronouns are [...]". It feels more like a casual thing that we're not making a big deal of (and therefore doesn't make me worried people will think I'm being self-righteous/"virtue signaling"/making this about me).
hey, this is great! like natalie, i also feel “clocked” when people default to they/them for me, but- like your great example with subtitles- i’ve mostly accepted that this is just an issue of conflicting accommodations, and it’s fine if binary folks like me have to just suck it up and deal sometimes if it makes life easier for folks who have to put up with more misgendering in their lives than i do. but it doesn’t feel great to see folks on twitter and reddit claiming that it’s bigoted to point out that the discomfort is there, or that defaulting to they/them for everyone isn’t actually the perfect solution many people wish it was, so thank you for talking about this so compassionately.
a couple hiccups with your solution:
- there are still a lot of places where offering your pronouns is still not practical (like, say, one-off interactions with cashiers)
- when people choose *not* to share their pronouns in response, you’re still at square one of not knowing how to refer to them
- if declaring your pronouns becomes common with cis people, it might backfire and lead to people being “clocked” if they choose *not* to declare their own in response
- as much as it’d be great if this was cis peoples’ problem, they’re pretty unreliable, and i think a lot of the conversation is about how queer folks behave in our own spaces, where we have more control and room to try out different norms (like wearing pronoun pins) safely before advocating them to cis people
i think it’s likely that there just isn’t a solution that will perfectly suit everyone, bc peoples’ needs and comfort zones can be so wildly different, but it’s still worth it to consider how to find kind, ethical practices for accommodations like this. thanks for keeping the convo moving forward 🙏
100% agree with everything you've said :)
This is all a hassle, really. If you want this to work, make it so it's like names. Take it casually. At the end of the day, nobody wants an interaction to be complicated.
Sometimes, one might say "my name is X, but you can call me Y/please, call me Y". I think overall, if one side thinks pronouns are important to them, they should just be upfront about it and specify, and keep correcting until the other side gets it. People with complicated or undesirable names deal with that all the time, they're not dead, and that's just how it is with strangers who don't know your specificities. You have to teach them, and that's that.
Nobel Nas gotta say i’d also really love it if people didn’t hassle me about my name all the time! that’d make my interactions with strangers considerably less annoying.
@@SlimmerCat Tell me about it ! I have a crazy ass long name that I hate with all my might, even the administration keeps botching it up. I always shorten it to oblivion for friends to make it easy for the both of us (esp my poor ears), or we straight up prefer using my username xDD Eh. Can't blame people, really. But you just gotta be clear and practical, is all. The brain is a lazy organ.
@@DarkyChuu idk what your name is, but I have a close friend named Nastassaya, and given how often I am correcting for her, I feel your pain. 💜
Personally, I don't understand the transgender experience because I am not transgender, but I watch y'all so I can understand how to be a better accomplice as Kat Blaque put it. I hate to see anyone go through what Natalie and others go through because y'all have taught me so much. I hate that this happens a lot and I worry about all of you because I can't imagine how hard this is. From a basically CIS pan women thank you all for teaching us we don't know what we're doing, but some of us are trying and you are making a difference.
💖💜💖
I am a cis-gay bear with a long beard who wears plaid flannel and workboots. Intoroducing myself as "Hello, I'm Jafar and I use he/him pronouns" might not just come across as weird it might also come across as snide or an obvious hint "I gave my pronoun because obviously I'm unsure about yours and thought it was impolite to ask", which might also trigger dysphoria. I'm not concerned about my embarrassment or coming off as weird because I'm already a walking stereotype but I feel there's going to be a period of awkwardness and possible misunderstanding until this is normalised.
Thanks for writing this. I think that's exactly the thing--IF you feel safe to do that in every interaction, not just when you can't tell which binary gender the person affiliates with, you can be part of the normalization. Because the thing is, you never know. I have a face and body type that people see as very femme, and my style of dress varies from femme business casual sans jewelry & makeup to "queer-looking" or butch lez. But I'm agender. I let people use whatever pronouns they like, but I correct people who call me a woman. If someone cis introduced themselves with pronouns to me, I would assume they were an ally and be able to tell them that I'm agender, in groups i'd like to be called "this/that person/individual" and behind my back IDGAF. In my dream world which will never exist, I get called he in all spaces, but don't have to change what I look like. I guess it confuses people, but I want a world where people can look however they want (or however gets them through the world with minimal breakdowns), while they identify with whatever gender feels true and use whatever pronouns feel best. Just something to consider, thanks for caring about it.
I mean, there are trans gay bears that have long beards and wear flannel... I don't think it's weird at all to say your pronouns given that you could be trans for all we know as an onlooker !
When I (a cis-woman) started introducing my friend (a trans-woman) to my other groups of friends, I started telling people how we knew each other
"This is *Name* , she and I are in *This group* together"
I thought this was helpful for not only letting others take the que from me about her pronouns, but also helped in general with making a new person feel included in the group, because they had a jumping off point of something to talk about
This is a great idea tbh
a huge hole in the discourse here, for me, as someone very confused on the concept of gender, questioning for that reason, and absolutely not out or planning to be at the moment with family, being asked, or even normalizing asking or saying your pronouns is hard. Because if someone is closeted, being expected to state pronouns or being asked, effectively forces them (us?) to enforce that closet and lie. It forces questioning people who might not be ready to give a specific answer to answer on the spot, or to worry about how to answer.
I'm sure there are people in a similar space to me that very much want to be given the chance to try out how if feels to ask for they/them or something, but with my personal confusion on the subject and social anxiety and issues with social cues already, the entire idea of ever being asked for pronouns or expected to share them terrifies me. It's far easier to just let people assume. And I dont /think/ I'm saying this from a position of cis privilege. If i was super sure i was cis, i doubt having to say 'she/her' would stress me out as much?
Basically not everyone is ready to share their pronouns or have that conversation, and it really messes with people who may be closeted or unsure.
Imagine saying your closeted pronouns and then having people' use it against you if/when you do decide to come out. Or people who were using one you like better switching bc you had to hide somewhere. Or having 'allies' correct or question you on your own pronouns when you aren't ready to come out in some space. I feel like this whole part of the discourse is missing.
I'm still early on... and one of the hardest things for me was when I was updating my info on Facebook a bit... I was fine putting gender as transwoman... and then right below it... pronouns...
I'm quite aware of what I look like, I am not comfortable with being referred to as she/her... but I don't want to put transwoman with he/him pronouns... and they/them is a NB thing... and I'm quite binary... to the point where I would rather be recognized as masc rather than somewhere in between... and there is no option for like... just use my freakin name...
(No diss on enbies, just my own personal preference)
Yeah... it's a small and ridiculous thing to get all confused over... ended up just going they/them... but nothing in the choices available felt right for where I currently am at, to the point where I nearly set everything back to male/he/him.
I am a cis person who also happens to be blind so I have trouble reconciling with the fact that I don’t want to hurt the feelings of trans people by asking what their pronouns are and the fact that I cannot tell by looking because I can’t see how they present themselves
This is an incredibly important and valuable perspective. Thanks for being here to share it.
It would be shockingly absurd of me to be offended if someone who could not see me had to ask my pronouns. I think your case is a notable exception of when it just makes sense for someone to ask.
I think humor goes a long way in creating trust and understanding here. When someone shows they're willing to make themselves look silly, in an effort to do the right thing, it's usually more effective than outright politeness. For example, leaning in and privately asking "hey, what are your pronouns--I'm blind!" might be funnier than a more formal, impersonal introductions.
How do blind people type in the internet?
Speech-to-text and screen readers
As someone who is supporting Natalie on Patreon and being a part of her hangouts with her patrons, I can tell you this: She didn't want to cover non-binary folk, she didn't feel comfortable doing it because she isn't non-binary, and recognized the problematic aspects of it. But her supporters continued to encourage her to do so. Everyone learns and grows. I agree with you on everything you've said, and yet I told my entire company during a Q&A 2 years ago that they should just ask people's pronouns if they don't know them. I wish I didn't say that. I feel stupid for saying the wrong thing even though it made sense at the time, and that's what I wanted them to ask me, as a baby trans (still am, obvi). Yet here we are, growing as a community and changing our perspectives based on our lived experiences and engagement. I have learned to forgive myself instead of spiraling into depression over it. I extend that forgiveness to others as well, including Natalie.
Yup, this is the best solution. My big issue with pronoun circles is how it puts trans people in a vulnerable spot.
One time i was at a training event for the leaders of student clubs and there was going to be a consent workshop, where everyone was going to give their name and pronouns. During the day i kept hearing people make attack helicopter jokes and other transphobic comments. That attitude destroys the trust that we are supposed to build by having these workshops and using gender inclusive language.
Too many people see those things as pandering so not only does it put trans people on the spot in unsafe situations, it also reinforces the idea that we are looking to restrict their freedom. Like you said, in order to keep trans people safe, cis allies need to normalise it first.
I'm not trans - just gay, and it's been a really confusing time to be a trans ally. I really appreciate your take on this. Thanks for sharing your pov.
(I remember reading your essays on The Orbit many moons ago. Hello).
I didn’t think the conflict Contra raised is one that requires a solution-just a statement of fact different kinds of trans people are going to be uncomfortable with behaviors that make the others comfortable.
Your subtitles example is apt in that the only solution is for you to suck it up-I feel like my only option is to suck it up and be the bigger person when it comes to pronouns.
Changing norms as you describe will likely make some cis people uncomfortable-namely cis people who are gender-non-conforming. In short, I don’t think there’s a solution that will be easy for everyone. Some of us are just going to be uncomfortable and have to suck it up when in certain groups that have certain pronoun practices.
And since we’re ALL gonna be uncomfortable, all I ask is that we each be patient and understanding with each other’s hangups.
My local DSA chapter seems to have adopted this practice, even when everyone there is cis.
I agree with most of what was said in this video. But it kind of hurts being constantly told "cis people need to deal with being uncomfortable."
I'm a cis woman, I'm gender non-conforming, but typically present as female. But because of my typically male name that I was born with, I am CONSTANTLY misgendered as male. I'm very much cis, I try my hardest to be a trans ally. But it hurts so damn much being basically told "cis person, your pain is invalid, cause you're cis."
I feel like being gender non-conforming kind of takes away from your cis privilege. I've often thought that more discussion should be made into how cis and/or het gender non-conforming people experience prejudice similar to that of trans/NB and LGB+ people.
I just can't imagine everyone starting their conversations with 'Hi I'm (blank) and my pronouns are (blank).'
Also I'd feel very much uncomfortable doing that. I already feel uncomfortable in most if not all social situations. You can call me a bad ally if you want, but that's how I honestly feel. I think the words I use to describe myself should be ones that I choose myself. In other words, I don't think I should be forced to gender myself. (And before anyone says 'use they/them', isn't non-binary still a gender?) I get that other people will gender me and that's something I can't control, but if it's myself, I should at least have to option to opt out of that.
Pronouns first, then Natalie.
Of course, as a cis person, my gut reaction to this solution was "What? No, that's weird, and at work would alienate me from the really conservative people with all the power." But that's what privilege is, my choice is between fitting nicely into the status quo or coming off as some "woker than thou SJW" in the eyes of my coworkers, rather than the choice a NB person would have which is to either publicly self-misgender or out oneself as trans in, what I have already identified as, a work environment hostile to that idea. The worse of my two choices is better than either choice a NB person would have in my social setting.
What this is is people who have the privilege taking the blunt of the opposition because they are likely to be far less harmed by it. It's the same reason white people should stand up to police when they see them using excessive force towards POC. Yes, white people may face consequences for doing this, but are likely to suffer far milder consequences than, say, a black person would, and because if that, is likely to be more effective at altering police actions.
The reason something like this has to happen is because it isn't safe for NB to constantly out themselves in public spaces. Ideally, we'll get to a point in time when it is safe and nobody thinks anything of it. Everyone just knows that most people identify as men or women, but some people don't, and that's normal. As a society, we are getting pretty close to everyone just knowing that most binary people are attracted to the opposite gender, but some people aren't, and that's normal. As a result, more gay people feel comfortable telling people in more social settings than ever before. We still have a ways to go, but it's definitely way better than 20 years ago.
The conversation that I think needs to be had is about if we hold on to generalizations or not. For example, with regard to physical disabilities, one could state that the human body features two eyes, two arms, and two legs. This is correct to a very large degree, but of course there are people who do not have two eyes, two arms, and/or two legs and have to navigate a world where it is assumed that they do. This is the accessibility issue Luxander brings up in this and her first video on this topic. Do we hold on to the concept of a gender binary while acknowledging and accepting that not everyone fits into it, or do we throw the whole thing out because the existence of the binary in our culture is harmful to those who don't fit into it? I know this is what you'd expect from a cis person, but my opinion is that we should keep the binary, since most people subscribe to it, while providing accessibility for those who don't. Getting rid of gendered bathrooms is low hanging fruit, but ultimately I think the goal should be to keep gender a thing while getting to a point where it doesn't matter for much of anything outside of perhaps who we're attracted to sexually. We don't get rid of stairs just because there are some people who can't use stairs, we make sure that there is accessibility for people who can't use stairs. Having a gender binary is clearly pretty important to binary trans people, and I'd wager it is at least somewhat important to cis people as well. My experience is as a cis person, so I'd love to hear the thoughts of some trans binary and NB people.
About ContraPoints. Sorry if I get a bit defensive here, but we cannot forget what Natalie does. Natalie makes very effective videos for reaching isolated white men. ContraPoints is one of the best Antifa efforts out there in that she catches some men before they become fascists. Normies are the Left end of her target audience. She might not be the wokest of the woke, that's not what she's claiming she is. Again, I'm a cis white dude, so I'm definitely not going to be as sensitive about these issues as someone who suffers from negative representation of their group, but Natalie seems pretty well intentioned and willing to listen. But canceling Natalie, sorry, is harmful to the trans community, including the NB community. Her Tweets on pronouns caused a discussion, and that is all that should have come from that, a discussion. Give Natalie and anyone who listens to her your valid take based on your valid experiences and some of us, and probably Natalie, will listen and self correct. Canceling Natalie accomplishes nothing. She isn't going to be replaced by ContraPoints 2: Now With Perfect NB Representation. There are a LOT of people other than NB people who are at an ever growing risk in the current American political climate, and they need people like Natalie more than ever. Again, if you were offended by Natalie's take on pronouns, I'm not saying you should suck it up, I'm saying you should be constructive with your feedback with the goal of getting people to listen and self correct. Canceling ContraPoints is not a victory in any shape or form.
yes! i said on the kat blaque video about this that i think the best way to do it is for everyone, especially cis people to introduce themselves with their name and pronouns, making it so normal its as expected as giving a handshake when you introduce yourself!
I am a transmasc nonbinary person myself and this is something I have been encouraging my cis friends to do. I run a local fandom community too, so at our meets we have been teaching by example in a welcoming environment. I have felt for quite a while normalizing pronoun introductions with our names can help a TON. And I agree it is up to the majority (our non-trans allies) of our society, so thank you for this followup video. ^_^
I found your channel right after the whole contrapoints thing and i loved hearing your perspective, thank you for all the work
I'm a trans person. I don't know if I'm binary or non-binary. This whole asking for pronouns thing also makes me uncomfortable, because I don't know how to respond. And I really don't want to explain. When I've met people questioning their gender, they have the same issue that I do.
My solution for this situation (which can also be taken as a temporary measure while your solution is the long term goal) is that when we go around in a circle asking people for their pronouns, don't press people if they don't respond. This should also be implemented regarding names. It sucks when you're trying to decide your name and you go somewhere you know you'll go again. What if you change your mind about your name and don't want to draw attention to yourself with that?
Also, I think that IN GENERAL we shouldn't ask people for pronouns unless we will need to. If we're at a conference or a meeting and one person will be doing the talking, then we don't need to all introduce ourselves and include our pronouns because more than likely, we won't be talking about each other during that time.
For example, I was in such a situation last Friday. We went around in a circle introducing ourselves with name/pronouns. "Hi I'm Ezra and my pronouns are he/him." "Hi I'm Alex and my pronouns are they/them." If someone says "Hi I'm Mark" then don't press them for their pronouns.
So, basically,
-Normalize introducing yourself with your pronouns.
-Don't press people when they don't list their pronouns. Or even their name.
-Don't ask for pronouns unless it's likely you will need them.
Hi, I’m Lucien, he/him. Seems easy enough!
Unfortunately if spoken, a lot of people will probably think your name is Lucien Hehim, unless you explicitly say those are pronouns. =P
@@MyNontraditionalLife Always gonna be easier to get people to just move things around between mental categories they already have than to try and add an extra word (or, an extra definition to a word) in their language tbh.
Possibly the same part of the mind that rebels so viciously to slang words or such that they're too old to be 'in on'.
If we're already asking the entire world to change I prefer we just obliterate gender pronouns, change languages to not have them. Binary trans woman here. Edit: we could also just add or designate gender neutral pronouns and make them the default and use the gendered ones only for people that we know want us to use them and that we know which ones they prefer.
I love this.
Pronouns are used instead of names in order to facilitate conversation. We don't need to get rid of pronouns or make them complicated enough to basically become names. Just choose a gender and present as it as best you can. Most people who are decent and reasonable will use the correct pronoun even if they can clock a trans person.
@@mrpotatoh you are assuming what I'm suggesting is somehow super complicated. I suggested to create one, repeat one, set of pronouns that are gender neutral, and option to either have them replace gendered pronouns, which are currently usually two sets of pronouns in addition to object set of pronouns. Or have the gender neutral pronouns be an added option to existing ones but make it the default because you can't tell someone's gender by looking at them.
Obviously people seeing my gender isn't working no matter how hard I tried to pass and you can never know non binary people's gender by looking at them because they don't necessarily even try to pass as one of the binary genders.
So having one, repeat one, set of pronouns for gender neutral case and make it the default one used for strangers or only option besides object pronouns would be best way to easily avoid misgendering without people having to try and guess your gender. It would make it easy not to misgender anyone.
This is the simplest way to get to that place where people wouldn't get misgendered due to inherent limits of the language, you would have to misgender them on purpose or assume their gender on purpose, whereas languages today force you to make a choice and for non passing binary and non binary people that could never work.
In Hebrew there aren't even any object pronouns, and objects are assigned he/she. When you study Hebrew you need to memorize which objects are he and which objects are she... Now there is some massive complication of things just to have gendered pronouns everywhere.
If something is stupid and harmful in a language, we should change it. Languages are made up and change through history all the time. Why not make them better?
I gotta say that first off, I entirely sympathize with where Natalie was coming from with her tweets. Your analysis of this issue is really excellently put, but as a nonbinary person I can't help but see a ridiculous amount of people on twitter ranging from 'cis and kind of misinformed' to 'full on deniers that nonbinary people exist' using this conflict (and Nat's subsequent deactivation) as justification for their invalidation of nonbinary identities, and that honestly just sucks so bad I don't really know how to conceptualize it. I want to be able to stand firm in the belief that Nat had the right to express her feelings and difficulties in navigating certain spaces as a transwoman, but seeing that it puts me closer to the side of people who actively spread hate towards me and my nonbinary peers leaves an awful taste in my mouth.
On paper I agree. I doubt it will socially work.
I'm in Texas and cis. The social repercussions around acknowledging NB or trans existence is sometimes greater than being NB or cis. I know allies should go to arms with the people they align, but the numbers required for this to work in day-to-day life is hard to get.
I've had less problems getting people to accept binary trans people than I've had approaching changes in gender related language.
Would love to see another ContraPoints video addressing her other stuff :)
Do you have any specific examples?
@@8Rincewind wdym examples?
@@vrojalowskisnajolski531 examples of other things Natalie has said or done that you'd like Luxander to discuss. Many people were implying that Natalie had a history of "anti-NB" statements. But I was hoping for specific examples, seeing as Luxander and many other NB fans have said they haven't noticed ANY anti-NB statements. I'd like to know what both sides are missing.
@@8Rincewind actually im interested in seeing a video like this because people seem upset about it but i also don't know specific examples. Then again im not on twitter lol. But yeah id just like to see what everyone finds so freaking offensive for some reason lol
@@genericname8727 this is exactly how I felt about that video. Although I wasn't a huge fan of Baltimore, because of the stereotype thing, but also becuase they were a little 'too' calm. I get what Nat was trying to do. Nonbinary people are frequently portrayed as being stereotypically histrionic. But, I feel like Baltimore was leaning slightly too far into tone policing territory, especially since the creator and performer doesn't share the gender id.
I also felt really uncomfy that in the end, the message focused on binary trans people. I've been told that this is because Nat IS binary trans and it's what she knows, which is fair. But if that's the case, why would she go to so much effort to illustrate the non binary experience?
It confuses me as both a non binary person and as an artist.
Also NB w/o issues with her non binary comments. I have some issues with the way she addresses catcalling bc I know too many WOC who get really aggressive/scary catcalls. just rubbed me the wrong way I suppose.
I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on this.
i've been on a contra rewatch binge lately so I think I know which kind of comments you're talking about and as a WoC who also gets catcalled and knows how majorly it sucks, I sort of get how her jokes about catcalling and how sometimes some catcalling in certain situations isn't awful might send the wrong message, but I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that some catcalls are worse and scarier than others. it just depends on a person's threshold for where the cutoff point between "fine" and "not fine" is. honestly, imo, contra's takes on catcalling, even when she's joking about the catcalls she receives and even when it looks like she's giving some people a pass, is fine. if she doesn't find something scary, she doesn't find it scary, and that doesn't really have much bearing on the catcalls I get and it doesn't place any sort of prescriptive judgment on what I should find scary or not. I guess I just really don't see how Natalie's comments/jokes on her own catcalls are connected to my catcalls, much less other people's catcalls, and unless I'm missing some of her other comments, this seems like a confusing thing to point out about Natalie.
@@cute-pat00t So I see your point and I agree to an extent. I think she is someone with a big platform and she's had a lot of men "transformed" by her videos. I have a couple of friend who had a whole discourse about this, and I took notes + added some as someone who doesn't always pass/ someone who experienced shit before my transition. So basically in the US it can be deadly to fellow native american women when white men especially go to reservations and do this shit. I have heard plenty of scary stories in regards to friends and family that have gone through very traumatic experiences that began with a catcall. I also know in Mexico plenty of women fear for their lives every day and have their blood type, phone number, and name written in sharpie in case they are murdered. I know a lot of women in my community that are latinas that have been assaulted following a catcall. The catcalls themselves may not be as scary, but what follows is. I am both indigenous and latino, so before my transition I did get some weird catcalls by men, but it never got to a super violent place. My friend who is the singer of ASOT also had some issues with Natalie's comment given that she is catcalled on a regular basis, and it's usually really creepy/scary. I have plenty of white friends who have also been catcalled, but my bipoc friends espeically have had a really shitty time with that whole thing.
I love Natalie, but I can still disagree and find her problematic. I think it's more on an opinion basis, so it's fine that you disagree with me :)
@@TheLionAndTheMouse like, all of those experiences can be true and valid things to be concerned about and it would still not follow that Natalie's comments are connected to them, pretty much at all. functionally, Natalie's stance that in her experience as a white woman, some catcalls aren't as threatening as others, and that the catcalls that involve being followed around are actually really scary and threatening, really isn't that far off from what you've said so far. Are we really going to take this pretty minor difference of opinion, especially one where the difference mostly comes down to Natalie's own experience and personal reactions to her own catcalls, the ones that don't really belong to other people, and say that it warrants the "problematic" label? It'd make sense if she said or implied something different, like "catcalls don't scare me and other people shouldn't be scared either" or "catcalling is fine actually, I don't see what people are complaining about", because these statements both don't acknowledge how scary and threatening catcalling can and often is, and it makes a pretty irresponsible prescriptive statement on her big platform that is a bad message to send to her largely cis male audience. But to my knowledge she never made or even implied any sort or prescriptive statement that gives men a pass to catcall, making in my opinion the whole connection to the real world violence WoC face... a bit of a stretch? unless I'm missing some sort of implied prescriptive statement here?
I'm cis and I really like this perspective of cis people normalizing the use of pronouns in all spaces in general.
A knock on effect this has is that If I open with my pronouns in a space that is hostile to transpeople, it affords those transpeople the opportunity to know if they're going to encounter a bigot without having to expose themselves as trans and be attacked for it.
I'm cool with that negative attention being on me, (since I was the one who opening the floor to pronouns) and I prefer that since I think it's an emotional labour cis people can share in to help our trans friends navigate these spaces more safely
Are you saying that if someone does not agree with trans pronouns they are a bigot?
I‘m a straight cis man (he/him) who found contrapoints because I was ignorant about anything relating to transgender people. I found out about your channel because I was confused about the contrapoints thing and didn’t know in what way i was ignorant here either. This video told me exactly how I could help. I appreciate it.
I like the idea of having the option to not share your pronouns. My school is amazing, it’s an art school and it’s really inclusive and accepting, but they have been asking for all our pronouns and I always say she/her because i haven’t fully come to terms with myself, especially not enough to announce to the class. I also have a shaved head and I don’t wear a binder so people often ask for my pronouns and it’s so uncomfortable.
I just love that idea
Hi! I'm Justin (he/him/his). I teach at a university and would love to hear your perspective on how this should be handled in a classroom. Just today, in fact, we did class introductions (its an English class). I explained my own understanding of the pronoun issue (i.e. that binary-trans people can be made uncomfortable but for NB folk it is an accessibility issue) and then asked that people introduce themselves by name and their pronouns if they wanted. In other words, I made introducing their pronouns optional. I stated my own pronouns first to normalize the whole thing. I would be grateful for any thoughts and/or feedback on this practice, because it won't be the last time I have to figure out what to do!
A related but separate point - I have had discussions with people who felt that class introductions with pronouns was a fraught practice for people that were either questioning or unsure of themselves. If it were mandatory to introduce your pronouns, so the argument goes, then for some students it would feel like they are under pressure to out themselves to friends/peers when they may not be ready to. I would also love to hear any thought on this. Thanks!
It's been several years so I don't remember exactly, but I had a professor give us work sheets or something the first day of class that let us fill out our preferred names and pronouns. I feel like it was a good option because it let the professor know if any of us used pronouns other than what would be traditionally expected, but also let us give chosen names or even a preferred nickname. and since it was on paper we didn't have to announce to the class. during class discussion this allowed the professor to take the lead in gendering students as they wished. Allowing folks to choose whether or not they want to disclose pronouns aloud is best by far. Making it mandatory puts people like me in a bad spot where we have only a few moments to decide if we feel safe coming out when we don't know everyone there. if we don't feel safe then we have to deliberately misgender ourselves, which also feels really bad. if it's optional then we have an alternative that doesn't suck as much. the only thing I would add before class intros is saying that you have a zero tolerance policy for racism, sexism, transphobia, etc so that if a student feels like they're being treated badly by other students for any of those things, they can talk to you about it outside of class.
@@UmbralEpoch Thanks! This is definitely helpful.
Thank you for this! Your logic is exactly the reason I put my pronouns in my bios as I update them these days. I have a trans son and I completely agree with you.
This is one thing I’ve had an issue with: I work in the service industry, and it’s generally customary to refer to a patron as sir or ma’am out of respect for the patron. Not using that language can get me dirty looks or even professional write ups if a person complains to management, which they have in the past. Contra also mentioned in her tweets how she enjoys a bartender referring to her as miss or ma’am, which is generally customary after that split second interaction. Should I start my interaction with a patron by asking their pronouns? Or by expecting them to volunteer theirs? I’m not sure.
Sorry for the wall of text.
What Luxander suggested here was to introduce yourself with your own pronouns. This helps to normalize doing it, and most trans people (and some others) will reply with theirs. If they look at you strangely, you can probably be guided by their presentation.
As a former retail worker, I don't think much is missed by just not using those terms so long as you're still generally polite and pleasant
@@MusingMoss I mean you literally just ignore their point where they say they could get written up or in trouble but whatever. No one has the right to not be uncomfortable. This really just seems like a case-by-case situation where you have to apply different solutions for different individuals. It's not an easy answer but it's the only one that is actually practical.
I would love to have this conversation. Because not even Natalie would say that she is beyond criticism. She uses a format that allows her to critique and challenge herself. And nobody is perfect. I would love to talk in a sane, respectful way and crowd source some discourse and share stories and experiences. But, I’m just a sober cisgay white male. But I also think that’s why I want to hear from everyone. This cancel culture needs to become a cultivated culture. I block people who use dangerous language. Not heated language. We have to learn to encourage discourse, state our case in earnest, and listen to an argument in earnest. I block the GC crowd if they continue to misgendering or make digs at a persons appearance which that observation can be made with out sounding like a MEAN Pit Viper.
thank you very much for making such an effort trying to find solutions! i am truly amazed how much you focus on problemsolving as opposed to some others who just keep talking about problems without trying to find feasible solutions. that is a great trait you have! keep up the good work!
This is why I put my pronouns in my twitter bio. We cis folks have had it pretty easy for the last few thousand years, we can most assuredly meet trans people halfway here.
Haven't had to introduce them in person yet because we don't have gendered pronouns in my native language, so don't know how I would handle that situation.
Which language, just out of curiosity? I know Finnish, Turkish and Hungarian all have gender-neutral 3rd person pronouns, and would like to know of any others.
@@joycelinlgbtq I won't be adding anything to your list, because it is Finnish.
The other issues with Natalie were blown out of proportion
Wow, I'm so glad to here that someone else is doing this. I live in an intentional community and over the last two years this has slowly become the norm. It really does feel comfortable (as nonbinary) for me to see the social change. Two days ago I had someone new to community meet me and introduced herself with her name and pronouns. It gave me the space to tell her my pronouns in a way that felt really good to me.
appreciate the fact that you brought up the real issue here, that it boils down to cis people normalizing sharing pronouns rather than just resting comfortably on cisnormativity, just handing over that aspect of privilege. i also have been re-watching certain videos of natalie's, including her pronouns video and i admittedly kind of forgot that she already laid out all of her feelings more succinctly and more clearly in that video. it kind of just made it that much more odd to me, i guess, that her initial comments blew up the way they did. maybe largely by people do don't regularly watch her videos? idk at this point, other than that i agree that the normalization of sharing pronouns really has to start with cis people normalizing it amongst themselves, which isn't even far off from what the whole original discussion about pronouns was about, anyway - cis people needing to work on their pronoun game instead of pushing it onto trans people.
I think this highlights the problem with Twitter as a social media platform. It doesn't allow enough room for big complex nuanced ideas the way a thirty or forty minute long video can. I too, was surprised by the amount of reactionary backlash to Contrapoints.
Asking or giving your pronouns as a normalized part of social interaction WOULD be a fine solution; except that as noted by you, Contra, and Kat Blaque in practice the only time it happens is when people think they've clocked someone.
I like you're suggestion, though
this is what my college does! most ppl are cis so it’s a little odd but as you said, it’s a necessary process that i’m happy is in place as a convention
dotty hope you’re not paying fees at that college!
This is actually the way we teach people to introduce themselves at an LGBTQ undergrad conference I've attended for 3 years! I think you're right and this is the most effective way to be an ally. I think what rubs me the wrong way with being asked my pronouns is the way it feels like something is being demanded of me that I may not want to give. It can feel like outing myself when I don't want to, even if the person asking hasn't clocked me at all and is just "being an ally". This alternate form of inviting someone to tell you their pronouns by example is more appealing. It's polite to respond in kind, but nothing has been demanded of you that you feel you can't avoid. Someone could just not offer their own pronouns in response, and you'd have to assume that they are presenting as what they wish to be preferred by and respect the effort they took to do so.
Whenever I see cis people with their pronouns in their bio on social media, it makes me happy! It normalizes trans people having their pronouns in their bio
It's a good suggestion, and it is absolutely useful for cis people to normalize doing pronoun asking amongst themselves, but we can't ignore when they act Harry Enfield in his gay son sketches, awkwardly trying but in a way that's painful. I feel like my fellow nonbinary folks overlooked that the comment Natalie made was about cis people singling out a trans person by doing a pronoun circle because she was there. That's not good inclusion, it's more akin to a microaggression.
Like, Natalie only mentioned us to say 'I guess this could be useful for some people' -- in a comment primarily about her discomfort, she still made space for us, and in saying that was acknowledging that it's not a single dimensional issue-- but people are mad at her for it? Mad because she was pained by something that validates us.
This whole things feels to me like another 'you yucked my yum' issue, except deeper of course because we actually /need/ inclusion, but saying 'conflicting access needs' while completely accurate doesn't actually explain the rage. People aren't responding to her needs even existing, they're responding to her not liking the thing that makes them feel good. It's troublesome.
My immideate reaction was discomfort at the idea, not because I dissagree, but because it would be akward, and might create tension. About a second later I realized how selfish that was, given what someone who's not cis puts themselves through when they introduce themselves. The idea that people will only accept me now, if they aprove of the normalization of an introduction that aknowledges people of all genders (or at least don't dissapprove of it), puts me in a simmilar (as in sharing some properties, not like in simmilarily difficult) situation as the very people I would be trying to help, and I realize that this an exemplary case of solidarity in action, and a way to take a tiny bit of the weight from the shoulders of people who are carrying way to much. For once I will be the one who feels like I'm dragging gender into every situation involving introductions, paving the way for those who need that cis people who don't know better have their assumptions about gender shaken a bit. So now my attitude has moved from discomfort to something more like pride that I'm able to help my fellow humans out in this way.
Please inform me if I'm being insensitive in my assumptions and descriptions.
Love this. I am non-binary also (they/them) and I didn't think that there was anything wrong with what Natalie said re: pronouns. I think it's REALLY IMPORTANT that non-binary people take the comfort and safety of binary trans people into account. I think we all want to live in a world where our identities are accepted and respected, but I don't want us to step on other trans people to get there! I am trying to introduce myself with my pronouns (when I feel safe enough to do so) in an effort to take the pressure off of other people.
Thank you so much for your videos on this topic!
hi!! somehow i've never heard of your channel before the contra/NB twitter discourse. I really love how you both gave an in depth explanation of the problem, offered a unique perspective, and then came out with another full video that was solution focused. serious emphasis on the "solution-focused", what youtuber goes out of their way to do that? subscribed!!!
A note on the closed captions thing, from a fellow ADHD person. I used to struggle with the same issue. Then I started watching foreign films where I needed the captions I found that after watching alot of them captions weren't distracting even when I didn't need them anymore. Idk that works for me but it's whatever just thought I'd throw that out there. I know that's not what this video is about but just thought I'd let you know put that out there
Yes, 100% this!! Thanks for bringing attention to this issue for LGBTNBQ allies!
My spouse and I are fairly-traditionally-presenting cis people these days. He frequently attends and speaks at professional conferences in his industry, and after discussing this very issue with some trans and nonbinary folks at some of these events, he's started adding his pronouns to his conference name tags with Sharpie. Bear in mind, he is a bearded, muscular, deep-voiced dude, and literally zero percent of the population would ever expect his pronouns to be anything but masculine. But declaring his pronouns in cis spaces has prompted several discussions with people who want to be allies to the trans/NB community but aren't sure what they can do on an individual level to help.
I've also started including my pronouns when introducing ourselves to new people as a matter of course. It's really simple to say "Hi, I'm Jade, She/Her pronouns, please," the way you might say, "I'm Jade, I have two kids and I work at an animal shelter." It's just giving the other person a little information about yourself at the start of a conversation, and as a cis person, it also signals to the other person that you are an LGBTNBQ ally -- whether they like it or not. Personally, we've never had anything but positive reactions from anyone, but we do hang in pretty liberal circles.
Anyway, I really do hope this catches on as standard etiquette -- it truly is a thing that cis allies *have* to do for their trans/NB friends and family because they just don't have the numbers to normalize this behavior. Yes, it feels awkward the first couple of times you do it, but if you stick with it and are consistent, it just becomes A Thing You Do, and the world is that much safer and happier every time you do it.
I think that's a great idea. There is a flaw because not everyone actually introduces themselves so sometimes you use pronouns before a formal intro and idk how to fix that.
The algorithm did a good thing for once! Just found your channel, and it's been great to hear your perspective and learn from you. As a very cis, very male cis male, I hadn't ever given much thought to introducing myself with pronouns, but this video has given me an excellent reason to do just that, even in spaces that appear to be all cis people. I hope to learn much more from your channel on how to be an effective supporter and ally to lgbt and nb people. Thanks, and take care.
This is a good idea, but I find it difficult to convince the average cis person that pronouns truly matter to some people.
A lot of people in my experience (cis people) see pronouns as simply words, and don't really apply that much meaning to them outside of "well that's just normal to call a girl she, and a boy he"
To start, the average Joe and Mary should understand that pronouns mean a lot for many people, then we can start introducing the idea that introducing ourselves with pronouns is helpful.
As a cis person, I always found it weird to actually say that I go by he/him, since it's just what I go by, but it took me a while to realize that it means much more to many people, and after learning about those people (trans/NB people), I have come to understand the importance of these things.
Thank you for making this video! (I’m now a new subscriber) I am a cis woman and I was having a conversation about this topic with two other cis people, one female and one male. I was telling them the same thing, it’s our job to normalize pronouns introduction too. Until cis people can have a comprehension of pronouns and change our culture to be more inclusive we won’t have real, progressive change. The cis people I was talking to were talking with a ‘in a perfect world’ perspective. Like, “why can’t we just let people alone and be who they are,” which I agree with, however it’s kind of the same idea about “I don’t see color.” Our society doesn’t address the importance of people’s gender or sexuality, therefore discouraging the lgbtq communities to talk about their perspective, pronouns, etc. Just like POC don’t feel comfortable to talk about their perspective on race in a majority white space because white America isn’t sensitive to the struggle poc go though or the history behind it. If we just ‘ignore’ a persons gender/preferred pronouns, we won’t create a space where everyone feels like they are encouraged to be who they are and share their experiences. And if cis people don’t hear about another persons experience with gender, how will we evolve to a more inclusive mindset?
Just my thoughts.
I’m a cis person, and I will make every effort to do this in all of the cis spaces I inhabit. This sounds like a good solution to me because it makes the privileged group responsible for solving the problem we have created and are perpetuating. Thanks for this video. I don’t think that this would have actually occurred to me otherwise.
That was really well done and articulated in a way I’ve not been exposed to yet. As a cis guy it’s hard to tell what the solution is but what you’ve said pretty well describes what ought to be a serious part of the conversation. Thanks for the new perspective.
It was nice to hear an actual non-binary person's response to this whole thing. So many of the people weighing in for/against Contra aren't the people who would actually be affected by it.
I don't think that solution is as clean-cut as it may seem but I do thank you for being one who presents a clear approach for a solution as opposed to just shouting only the problem, outcomes, and accusations as many people do. No macro solution is really going to fix the diverse nature of people. Guarantee someone is still coming out offended, displaced, or flawed in response. Whenever you try to solve one of human's habits, flaws, beliefs, or behaviors, then you will inevitably end up creating a new problem. So you go for the best trade off you can. Obviously, There is no magic bullet to this issue. It's best to try to handle it in the immediate environment using the settings of those involved in that immediate circle in order to create a productive environment. Any norm you create will become problematic somehow beyond that smaller circle just because of the - although cliche but very real- reality that not one size fits all. I wouldn't exactly remove yours and broader community from the equation. They play a vital role if tact accounts for both. If A+B = C.....and the equation is the experience and A= one group and B= is another group...you can't solve the equation without the other to find a productive C incorporating both. If the solution is made too complicated, then no one prefers to participate or will inevitably mess up more often. If kept too simple, then someone gets left out but it's the more enticing because it's simple (creatures of convenience). So a solution has to fit the very real human needs and behaviors of those directly involved. Pardon the long-winded way of responding to all this. Anyway, just my two cents. Good stuff you have.
Thank you for this call to action. Imma cis gay boi and a wannabe trans ally. Been failing horribly. The comment about putting my and other cis people’s comfort to the side in order to help trans people hit hard. I needed that...tho, being fully honest, I don’t know how long it will take me to have the courage to do this. Kinda shy, very non-confrontational. I’m imagining getting into a debate with every stranger I see. All that said, this solution truly seems like the best one💗
I know this video is pretty old but this was really helpful!! I'm a cis woman who's always been kind of ambivalent about giving my pronouns (I'll happily do it, but oftentimes I won't see an actual "need" to do so if that makes sense). However your explanation of normalization being a way to remove discomfort from enbies and trans people completely convinced me. Definitely gonna start doing this now, thank you!!
I'm a cis-het male in my 40s, so I'm going to be "an old dog learning a new trick" regarding including pronouns in my introductions. I'm also new to your channel, I found it while searching for info on the situation with Contrapoints/Natalie Wynn. But your suggestion sounds good, so I'll have to give it a go. I suspect my future grandkids will feel introducing with pronouns is normal but I will need to work on it a lot for the foreseeable future (so much patience with me will be most welcomed LOL). Thanks again for your thoughtful post - sincerely, a new subscriber.
LUXANDER! I have really appreciated both the previous video and this video on this topic - I think your thoughts are well rounded! HOWEVER, completely off topic - the calendar behind you is set to September 2018 in this and the last video - it’s been a little trippy for me!
What about getting rid of gendered pronouns, period? Gendered pronouns are not the rule of every language. For example, the Estonian language doesn’t distinguish genders. There is no he/she/them; one word covers it all. It may be difficult to settle on what that pronoun would be, but it seems like this would make things easier in the long run.
I use she/her, but honestly the moment anyone tries to box me into the “woman” group I get paranoid that they’re not paying attention to who I really am. I’m a feminine-presenting straight woman who doesn’t want kids and takes on stereotypically masculine roles in relationships, like being the household ‘handyman’ and jokester. Yet ever since I can remember, who I am and what I want out of life has been heavily assumed by those around me because of my “womanhood”. Boxing people in, in any way shape or form, signals alarm bells in my brain.
Hearing you say that you wanted to make this a norm by encouraging everyone to introduce themselves along with their preferred pronouns was strangely triggering for me. I don’t know what the right answer is, but doing what you’re suggesting despite it triggering the trauma my gender subjected me to in my religious cult upbringing doesn’t feel like a minor inconvenience that I can suffer through for the sake of others around me, like you do with movie captions. It’s something that I’ve been in the process of healing from for years. It brought me to the brink of death with depression.
None of us never will ever know what everyone’s past is, and what our well-meaning comments might trigger in others. None of this is easy.
This video and your last on Contra were the first I have seen of your content, but I am impressed with the thought put into it. I hear so many people whose only exposure to NB or Non-Conforming are that loud vocal minority of walking triggered hashtags and I like having grounded thoughtful voices to present in the face of that. Speaking from the binary trans spectrum, I wouldn't know how to resolve this. Most days I'm happy to take the proverbial bullet, but that is me specifically in this place in time. I am feeling pretty good in my skin these days and it's not much of a dent in my armor to have my pronoun asked for NB/NC folks. Most days, existing as an easily understood, typically passing white male gives me a damn good buffer to take on some of the discomfort for others in the community. Some days I'm dysphoric AF and one tiny impression of being clocked will put me in bed for the week and I would probably make the same kind of vent Natalie did. That doesn't mean I want things changed to suit my specific need, it just means I need to have a human moment.
I agree that this would rely on the cis community. Like relying on men (in the general sense) to take feminist values into male dominated spaces. I don't know how long that is going to take. It could take a couple of generations to completely normalize these kinds of ideas. It's still something that could help and I don't see how it hurt anything to roll in along with the idea that it's alright if the answer isn't always the same.
In the meantime, I think it's important that within the LGBTQ+ community as a whole that we work at not being turned against each other or feeling like one of segment of our community is putting the rest of us at risk.That is something that we can do for ourselves. I would like to see our community get to a place where questions to understand where a person is coming from are the knee jerk response to things like this. A human being in our community is hurting and needs to vent. We have all been there. Sometimes we're going to have to take the hurt for each other, and be willing to focus our blame on the situation - one where everyone can do right and it still sucks - and not each other.
Again, great video Lux, got a new follower.
I'm really REALLY glad to see people taking about solutions instead of fighting. Thanks for bringing the conversation to that point. I'd be curious what more trans people who feel alienated and uncomfortable with the practice of announcing pronouns have to say about possible solutions.
I agree it would be ideal if it was normalized to the degree you're describing I'm still not sure everyone would be on board. Partially because the road to that is long and painful for some--I think we're alteady on step 1 of this idea. The concept so far has only spread to progressive spaces and that's what this whole issue was about in the first place. So this probably isn't a short term solution by any means.
I also worry that if it did become that normalized for cis people, you could run into the problem of a stealth or closeted trans person being shamed into do this because people think they are cis. You could still run into trans people being forced to misgender themselves if they're not out yet because it's the social norm.
Personally I find it helpful when my friends make a point to introduce me and talk about me using my pronouns in a causal way. I also like when discord servers have the option of adding pronouns to your profile. Name tags at events with pronouns are also great... basically I'm fan of anything where I don't feel like I have to say something out loud and invite a whole conversation lol
Hopefully as time goes on the thing that gets normalized along sharing pronouns would be NOT asking invasive questions or making assumptions. Because personally I think that's why I'm not inclined to share that I'm nonbinary with people very often IRL. I've had countless people ask me invasive questions about my body and my sex life and it's triggered my dysphoria and PTSD. So much so that all I want in the world is to just get by passing as a binary dude at this point to minimize my discomfort.
Anyway I hope this discussion continues in our community and everyone weighs in and focuses on solutions rather than getting angry. Again, thank you. I think all of your videos are thoughtful and compassionate and I love that about your channel.
I have independently been dealing with this question for some time now, in the context of an old MMO / online community wherein actual sex / gender realities are hidden, while in-game sex is defined visually. It made me uncomfortable inherently, to choose pronouns when speaking of a third person in conversation, so I originally defaulted to character sex, the on-screen cue...
That did not satisfy of course and eventually I went to neutral terminology and of course found that as pertains any third-person reference, they did not fail or at least sufficed in assuaging my apprehensions using specific terms for people I had not ever met in person...
This solution of your is amazing and I certainly will do my best to evolve it in to my experiments with gender language, which is just one of many aspects of but a feature of a trait of the human condition. Hopefully this is useful or I've wasted peoples' time, but as to inspiration, I just found it edifying to hear your thought process and it be so close to my experience in the same area, which I had to fight a tiny bit for people to see my point of using certain gender-specific language and tacts...
Also know the era in which I was running these forays in to gender language issues was dead center of Gamergate and...well...prob nuff said lol.
Natalie has written literally thousands upon thousands of tweets, and now they're all gone. So unless you can find someone who obsessively screencapped all her tweets, you're never going to be able to reliably analyze her words. I could be one of her fanboys and therefore share only the screencapped tweets that cast her in a positive light, or I could be one of her detractors and only share tweets that might make her look bad. Shit can be taken all sorts of ways when you don't have enough context. So as well-intentioned as your proposal is, I don't see it working well. But I do like your idea about cis people introducing themselves with their pronouns, though widespread adoption will be a monumental undertaking. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it's going to take a concerted effort by trans and NB folks as well as their cis allies to make it work, and it will be a long journey before it become normalized. But I'm willing to take that first step :)
It's likely her account has been backed up on WayBackMachine or similar--she has enough supporters and haters to be a good candidate for "obsessive internet documentation" by 3rd parties. Many high-profile people on Twitter are subject to bots that collect every tweet so even things they delete immediately are kept in the public record.
This is not a solution b/c it will never happen. Cis people do not want to have to share their "pronouns" any more than anyone else does. We would also just like to be assumed to be what we look like.
I really like online communities like discord because most every server I’ve been on, pronouns have been part of the intro process. That is of course bc we can’t see each other and clock each other, but it’s nice
I love level headed content! Finding issues and such is valid, but being level about it crucial nowadays.
Thank you :)
I...love this idea. There have been times when I have wondered if a person I am talking to has a preferred pronoun but I hate to ask, because what if a) that means I have unintentionally clocked someone and ruined their day, or b) is some one with unintentional gender ambigous presentation and I have completely ruined their day.
I would like to see you talk about the other things about Natalie if you get the info you need.
Also I a cis but I would be more than happy to say, Hi I am Burningshadows and I use She/Her, I think the biggest issue is that getting EVERYONE to do this will be hard and I live in the bible belt so it is an uphill battle but I do try to do what I can to make someone else feel comfortable. I deal with PTSD but also social anxiety and I would absolutely HATE causing someone else anxiety. There have been times when I wasn't sure but the person was wearing a name tag so I was like Hi! I Love you name, it's so pretty/nice/etc. I hate the idea of asking because I do know for some people it makes things worse and I don't want to be that person that ruined someone's day because I messed up.
Great video! I agree that I feel like I'm outing myself every time I introduce myself with my pronouns and no one else does. Advocacy has to come from a position of strength, and that's how cis people can be real allies to trans/NB folks. One addendum I would make is that depending on the circumstances, it can be appropriate to ask someone GNC/trans about their pronouns in private where you don't risk making them feel like an outcast/like you're outing them. EDIT: I would suggest that a cis person re-introduce their pronouns before asking the trans/NB/GNC person about theirs.
Cis guy here. You are absolutely right and you convinced me. Since watching this video last month, I've done this a few times and I'm going to continue. I'm a little nervous about being seen as someone "trying too hard to seem woke", so -- and I hope people don't think this makes light in a bad way -- I introduced myself to some new people (and I was wearing a mini skirt at the time, so it may have helped) like this: "My name's Anthony. He/him. Ravenclaw." And the other three cis people told me their names, pronouns, and houses, and we got into a long discussion -- that I'm only now realizing has parallels -- about whether you can claim more than one Hogwarts House (general consensus: yes).
I think it's worth emphasising that Natalie never said this was anything more than a minor inconvenience and one she was happy to deal with for the greater good. I'm relatively new to her videos but I've seen most of them now and she always seems NB positive.
We really are on the cusp of a new era when it comes to gender. And I'm NOT just talking about trans, NB and GNC people. Even straight cis people are entering a long overdue birth of freedom when it comes to gender. I stopped cutting my son's hair when was he like 3 (he can't tolerate it). One day I just said to myself, "Why am I putting him through this? Because he's a boy? I have long hair, his sister has long hair, and his father has long hair. I'm done torturing him to meet someone else's expectations."
When he first went to school it was a problem. People would sometimes send him home in a ponytail for instance, even though they never felt the need to do that with my daughter who is only one year younger. Wait staff in restaurants would always ask me "what my girls would like" when they took our order. He's 15 now, so his obviously male body solves that problem, even though his hair is down to his butt. But I don't think it's ONLY that. I think that it's becoming easier for cis straight people now to present their gender in more individualized ways. And we have trans people to thank for that, in large part. Because that's what finally started the conversation.
When my son was born, a boy with hair that long would be branded a hippy or a metal head. Now he's just a boy with long hair because...he doesn't need a 'because' anymore. So yeah, as a cis woman who's seen benefits in my own life from the exploration of gender norms, I'm on board with meeting people half way as this gender revolution continues. Not sure if I agree 100% with your specific suggestion, but yeah - this isn't just about trans and NB folks. It's a good thing for ALL of us.
Hey, I absolutely adore this! I discovered you through the other contrapoints video, and found your insight very useful. you seem so intelligent and I really appreciate that you're understanding. I'd love to start doing the pronoun introductions, but I'm a closeted trans man and it would make me really uncomfortable to introduce myself with she/her.
I really love this concept though, and I truly do hope that it becomes the norm.
We recently had this discussion at my work because I pointed out that during meetings, they ONLY shared pronouns when I was there. After telling HR that I was NOT out to my co-workers. I'm not saying sharing your pronouns is bad, I agree that it needs to be normalized by cis people and appreciate your note on trans people sharing if they want to.
I just think that people (generally, not you specifically) need to learn that it's okay to correct people. It doesn't have to be a big deal for either party. Especially when it comes to people who you already know/have previously met. A girl I know recently came out as trans, and asked if I would correct people if they were talking about her. This was in a pretty trans friendly space, and she had been pretty active. When people would say he/her deadname and I would correct them, people would try to turn the conversation into one about her transition. It didn't need to change the subject. People would ask "since when?" when it didn't really matter. I think many people, myself included, just don't want to be in the spotlight. Binary trans people feel in the spotlight when they feel outed by having to say their pronouns. Some NB people feel that way too, especially when they feel like they have to educate strangers about their pronouns. Trying to find a balance for everyone is just hard while it's still not normalized.
Thank you for this! As someone who is cis and has enjoyed many of Natalie's videos, I would very much like to see your critique of her work from the non-binary perspective. Another non-binary person told me that they found some of her work to be triggering for them due to being sick of the erasure of enby folk but did mention that she targets her work towards cis people and hence it acts as a good stepping stone. I would love to see your take on it so I can educate myself better and get to see a different and well-thoughtout critique as you have shown in your videos. Thank you so much for your work xo.
Well I kind of feel that non binary people are constantly and openly trying to erase normal trans people. I mean they co opt trans groups and the demand everything is changed to fit them. to the point that normal trans people are pushed out and sometimes even unwelcome. I see it on many of the comments demanding that gender pronouns should be asked to everyone at the start or that society should default to "they". If that is not openly trying to erase or invalidate binary people to suit their own views of gender then I do not know what is. I personally fundamentally disagree with these peoples views on gender in fact it would completely invalidate my identity and experiences as a individual if it were true and I think its actually closer to the opposite of my believes on the matter, yet they want to be considered trans and be in the same groups and talk for me. Its their way or no way, they have no patience for anyone else, They think gender so differently and want different rules but they do not want a different group they desperately want to be know as trans. I have already had to deal with negative consequences in real life from the misconceptions they have created.
"Normal trans people"
Cishet here, I see absolutely no way this will directly harm us so I don't see why we shouldn't try it. And to any else like me reading this, I would ask you to do the same. Yeah, it might be a tad uncomfortable, but let's be real. We can handle being the ones that are uncomfortable for once.
very clear video! i'm happy to see someone else drew the same conclusion as i did. the problem occurs because people that take the recommendation "don't assume people's gender and pronouns!" to mean "ask people for their pronouns when i can't easily assume them" - which itself is an expression of the cisnormative nature of our society. dismantling that by making pronoun introductions a thing for everyone and not just trans/nonbinary folks will serve to improve everyone's experience.
with regards to natalie of contrapoints, i myself as a nonbinary person haven't really had problems with her? i enjoy her videos enough, and have noticed some lack of true understanding of nonbinary folks but a lot of intention to learn and improve. knowing a lot of other enby folks have issue with her makes me wonder if i've missed some important things. i don't really pay attention to her twitter so that could be why. it could be helpful for you to examine the issues people have with her and discuss them in a broader context of how nonbinary folks are misunderstood/treated. also i wonder if the treatment of trans women and how that factors into the way she's scrutinized (if that happens to be relevant) might be worth touching on.
I just call ppl by their name until they use a pronoun naturally in conversation and then that’s what I use. I’m a cis bi girl from a multicultural family so people assuming my sexuality and race happen all the time, I know it’s not the same feeling being expressed but I can empathize because of my lot in life. I absolutely love Contrapoints and I hope she does a video on cancel culture next, she is an amazing philosophical creator and I really want to she her thrive. I feel like a lot of us in the LGBT community are so used to ppl saying messed up things about us and to us that now we are fighting all the time and when one of our own says something a lil off we are all so ready to fight that we react to them the same way we would a bigot. If there is no way that we can express ourselves then perfect “wokeness” then the community will cease to exist we need to be compassionate instead of retaliatory. Love is Love this has been my ted talk have a nice day
I caught this video late, but I think you're right. It's could be a great solution, and like you said gives people a choice. My only concern (and this is getting really hypothetical because it's dependent on this actually becoming normalised) is that if it becomes absolute social convention, to the point that cis people are expecting it of other people they perceive as cis (which will be most people they interact with) , and it's somewhat considered rude not to reciprocate, then if a cis person thinks someone who is non-binary is cis, it might put them in a position where they are expected to give pronouns when maybe they don't want to, and just want to get on with their day without announcing their non-binary identity 24/7, maybe for safety reasons, unless we can kill transphobia on the same timeline. Granted, as a binary trans girl, I don't know how frequent it is that non-binary people want their non-binary status to be acknowledged all the time.. it's very different as I just want none of my trans identity to be realised by anyone unless it's on my terms, even though I'm out and proud and open about it. But I can see how that's maybe reversed for non-binary people as their identity might feel erased if what makes them trans isn't seen or acknowledged. Anyway, great vid :) thanks
Would appreciate you doing another video on Natalie. I'm a big fan of hers, and I've found her occasional tapping into NB perspectives as an NB person myself.
That said, interested in critique and your perspective!
I really appreciate how much thought you've put into this. It breaks my heart in a way, because although in theory, your solution sounds great, I just don't see it happening on a larger societal level. You make a distinction between binary and non-binary people... But even within that binary, there is so much diversity of opinion! So, I guess what I'm wondering is, how do we balance the need for group solidarity with individual needs?
Really good and proactive way that as a cis person I can do to make more comfortable for trans (and to be honest a lot of cis people who get misgendered)
Thank you for this further contribution to the discussion!
I would add one caveat to what you've been saying. I don't think it is an issue just for people who might "appear" to be gender-nonconforming or who are gender-ambiguous in their presentations. No matter what I try to do with my gender presentation--and I generally just go for comfort and try to wear non-gender-restricted clothing items--everyone tends to decide I must be "male" because of my height. I can be in full female presentation with make-up and everything, and I'm still determined by others as "male" because I am over six feet tall. When I was younger, someone thought I was a "very tall girl" one time, but that's it. This would be wrong for me, and I've gone through the trouble of changing my birth certificate and everything. So, even beyond normalizing pronouns with introductions (and there are a lot more e-mail signatures and also conference registrations and name tags that give pronouns these days, I've noticed--and it was cis people that I saw doing it most often initially, interestingly enough!), we also just need to start assuming as-a-whole that we do not know what anyone's gender is unless and until they tell us, and should therefore not assume anyone's pronouns. I suspect you know this already, but the way you expressed it seemed to indicate that it is only an issue for those who may appear to be more gender-ambiguous or androgynous in their presentation, at least according to the common assumptions of such.
I agree. I actually suggested that to a cis schoolmate but he didn't want to hear any of it.
There is one good thing that came of all of this: I found another reasonable, intelligent TH-camr to follow
I love your opinions and I would like to get more opinions on the ContraPoints drama, me being a mostly cis bi having a trans friends who had issues with this discourse and drama- even though I personally did not see problems with it. But again- my perspective is very different than the ppl who take issue with it. I’d live to hear an Enbie’s perspective.
Great video! Kudos to you for your incredibly well thought out response with some viable solutions! I fully support the normalization of respectfully asking cis, (binary) trans, gender queer, NB trans folk for preferred pronouns- but also believe give me option to opt out if they uncomfortable stating or still figuring out what those are .
I sensed that "comfort" for cis people like me is just dealing with gender by default where we're so wrong in the way we treat people based on gender. And it feels somewhat uncomfortable but I wanna get better and I believe eventually, I will, if persisting in trying to be supportive.
I’m absolutely not gonna lie I didn’t know what you were talking for a while. I saw the title of this video and thought it was about how to make Contra Dancing pronouns more accessible..... 🤠🙃
I'm nonbinary and I prefer they/them pronouns for myself, but am also comfortable with she/her. I'm AFAB, and mostly use she/her pronouns in work spaces when I'm freelancing (I work with new people every single gig, and don't want to have the pronoun conversation every day before I can do my work). My email signature reads [they/them or she/her].
The people who most often misgender me, are binary trans folks. Often even after we've done a name and pronoun circle. I introduce myself as "Bode, they/them," and later that day, people are he/himing me. I understand that it's trans folks trying to affirm me or something, but it's taught me one thing, pronoun circles are pretty useless. When they're that big that everyone forgets anyway, there isn't much point I feel. The only thing I've really seen help at conferences, meetings, etc, are name & pronoun tags you stick to your shirt. That's cool, because then cis people are invited to write theirs down, and it's normalized. But pronoun circles I've found to be largely useless. People wont remember all of what is said, and will just default to what they've read me as before I even speak.
Normalising giving our asking for pronouns when you're not sure is the problem.
Normalising everyone giving pronouns regardless of surety is absolutely the solution!
This is why I'm so happy when cis people put pronouns in their Twitter bio!
I'm one hundred percent with you!
phy phor but when your not sure, your guess is probably correct. If someone presents as male, he him pronouns are the default
That's entirely the problem.
Your method normalises guessing and only asking in certain situations, which explicitly calls out people who don't pass
It explicitly others an entire set of people.
What's the harm in normalising giving your pronouns?
Why not make it as normal as giving a short or nick name when giving your full name on introductions?
I'd love it if you could dive deeper into the whole ordeal, because I don't even know where to begin looking and don't think I'm equipped to see where the problem is by myself if there is one.
I think you are 100% correct. I'm on a discord run by popular cis youtubers and they all have pronoun tags for themselves. It is possible to ask for cis allies to do this!! It comes down to cis people having more influence in society and us having to not tear each other apart, but actual address the issue, which is their standards that they have placed on us. Instead of dissecting Natalie's tweets, why not offer a nonbinary position on issues that she has addressed as a binary transperson? I would love you to dissect trans-trenders, the alt right and trans issue, and those sort of dialogues. Continually tearing apart tweets doesn't feel productive for us, in my opinion.
I agree with the accessability conflict angle and I liked the CC movie watching analogy. Here is one amendment to that though, should CC be force to be turned on when it is known that there are no hearing impaired in the room and it is disruptive? The seemingly obvious answer is no, but to think like that is to accept certain assumptions about people and continues to keep people in a third status even if unconsciously . I think that was ultimately what Contra was saying, "we are forcing CC to be on even though no one needs it and it is not just unnecessary at that moment, but distracting." And the answer seems to be to keep CC on all of the time. Now, full disclosure, I am a binary trans woman and I support and engage in Pronoun introductions even though in 99.9999999999% of the time I am the only trans person in the room and I can tell you I know how she feels. Again, before I get dog piled, I support, defend, and participate in this practice with cis people to help them think about these issues and yes, it does make me personally uncomfortable and othered every time.