Did Ancient Greek Music Come From Japan? - No, but here’s why we ask
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 มิ.ย. 2024
- As crazy as it sounds, there was once a theory that Ancient Greek music might be connected to the musical traditions of East Asian countries since times unfathomed, before the dawn of the earliest civilisations. According to some authorities on the subject, there might have been a lost, primitive musical form extending across prehistoric Eurasia, and the earliest echoes of Ancient Greek music may be proof of this forgotten tradition from long lost eons. Let's find out if this theory holds up (spoiler alert: of course it doesn’t).
Keep in mind that I’m not a musicologist; all the information I provide here is only my synthethis of research made by authorities on the subject.
Sources:
The Rise of Music in the Ancient World : East and West, Curt Sachs
Ancient Greek Music, Martin L. West
Ancient Greek Music: A New Technical History, Steven Hagel
Microtonality in Ancient Greek Music, Michael Hewitt
The Ancient Greek music used at the beginning is the First Delphic Hymn to Apollo arranged by Petros Tabouris.
00:00 Intro
02:00 A lost pan-Eurasian music?
04:35 Why Ancient Greek and East Asian Music sound similar: pentatonic music.
09:25 In defense of the theory.
20:20 Why the defense doesn’t work.
35:30 Conclusion - เพลง
As crazy as it sounds, there was once a theory that Ancient Greek music might be connected to the musical traditions of East Asian countries since times unfathomed, before the dawn of the earliest civilisations. According to some authorities on the subject, there might have been a lost, primitive musical form extending across prehistoric Eurasia, and the earliest echoes of Ancient Greek music may be proof of this forgotten tradition from long lost eons. Let's find out if this theory holds up. Spoiler alert: of course it doesn’t, but the journey in answering why is filled with interesting discoveries. Keep in mind that I’m not a musicologist; all the information I provide here is only my synthethis of research made by authorities on the subject.
Sources:
The Rise of Music in the Ancient World : East and West, Curt Sachs
Ancient Greek Music, Martin L. West
Ancient Greek Music: A New Technical History, Steven Hagel
Microtonality in Ancient Greek Music, Michael Hewitt
The Ancient Greek music used at the beginning is the First Delphic Hymn to Apollo arranged by Petros Tabouris.
I'm pretty sure our caveman ancestors music is linked to todays electro lol
you are hilarious
Surprised you didn't bring up the very well documented influence of ancient Greek culture on Japanese visual art. This can be traced back to Alexander's conquests in Central Asia and India. He settled these regions with Greeks, and later the areas converted to Buddhism and a Greco-Buddhist artistic style emerged based mostly on Greek sculpture. Several centuries later, Buddhist thought and culture spread to China along the Silk Road, bringing with it traditionally Greek artistic motifs and techniques. Buddhism, and its associated cultural package, then made its short way to Japan.
It's a bit of a long shot for Greek music to have gone along for that ride, but it's not totally implausible. Tang dynasty China was less xenophobic than later eras, and China was host to traders, missionaries, and visitors from across Asia. I think it's probably more likely that pentatonic music evolved separately in many places around the world (we encounter pentatonic scales in some Native American, Javanese, and sub-Saharan traditions) but it's fun to imagine Greco-Buddhist monks playing music for their visiting Japanese bros in Tang dynasty China.
I am wondering if pentatonic has something to do with Bronze age and archaic bards. That is to say, Homer's verses are epic hexameter -would that fit in better with pentatonic if instruments and possibly vocals were added for better entertainment and attentions span? Once writting was introduced and poetry recorded, maybe that freed entertainers to focus more on the 'entertaining' or dance aspects and less on the ritualistic 'pentatonic' that was needed for ritual chants..
Great video and channel Farya. Thanks for all your work. Just a little story , my father (greek) was on board a ship in Thailand with other Greeks and also Japanese groups. And here is what happened. The Greek group started singing verses of traditional songs from Epirus (they are pentatonic) and the Japanese joined them by completing verses with their own Japanese traditional songs!
That is so cool! The first time I heard songs from Epirus I was absolutely confused, it’s amazing that there’s still a pentatonic tradition in this part of the world
@@faryafaraji pentatonic tradition from Epirus, clarinet by
Petros Loukas Halkias: th-cam.com/video/LEYrgg9xhTw/w-d-xo.html
@@COMIS26 that sounds like romanian 'doina' from the mountains of Banat region. if someone played that for me with few exceptions in the rithm i would say that's romanian music from that region that i mentioned above.
An old Japanese man once told me that Japanese people tend to like Scottish music because it makes a lot of use of pentatonic scales
The oldest certain musical instrument we have yet found is a flute made from the bone of a vulture about 35,000 years ago, found among artifacts of the paleolithic Aurignacian culture in an excavation in a cave in Germany called Hohle Fels. This bone flute pre-dates agriculture, and reconstruction found it was likely tuned to a pentatonic scale. We humans knew the pentatonic scale before we knew how to grow crops.
Ancient Chinese do have knowlege more than the 5 notes, however, the 5 notes are considering to be more fundamentally aligned with nature and thus more proper notes. (Juni L. Yeung has excelent series covering this if you search for the title "The Concise History of Chinese Musical Temperament" ) Confucius has an entire chapter about inproper music of Zheng and how its alluring sounds corrupts minds since people will use music as entertainment rather than cultivation. Some argue that those improper music are heptatonic music, since a limited amount heptatonic music does surrived in folk traditions but was never highly regarded in Chinese history.
"this video will very much be based-"
I'm gonna have to stop you there Farya, that's all I needed to hear. This video is indeed incredibly based.
I majored in Classics and studied ancient Greek music, but never felt that it sounded like traditional Japanese music. As a Japanese, I feel like the essence of the West. But at the same time, I definitely feel an oriental atmosphere.
Definitely, the “Japanese” sounding element is only relegated to the specific pieces that use the pentatonic In scale. The large majority of Greek music’s melodies wander somewhere between today’s European and Oriental/Middle/Near-Eastern sound
It may not "sound Japanese" to an actual Japanese. It may, though, if you're from a distant culture and only have a vague exotic image about Japanese music.
We need more content like this! Theres a huge renaissance of history videos but its all online instead of on TV.
The Music of ancient China during the Tang dynasty, is also Heptatonic. So they also knowingly chose to play pentatonics. Furthermore, the notated repertoire of Heptatonic ancient Tang music, comes from Japan. Thus, the same holds true for East Asia: they knew about 7 notes, but chose to skip some.
In the ps.Plutarchean passage you cited from Hagel, the context is very similar: the instrumentalists accompanied the vocal gapped scales without skipping any notes; thus their music was Heterophonic. Plutarch says that the reason they abstained from tetrachordal melodies wasn’t that they weren’t familiar with it.
P.S. it appears that the earliest type of pentatonic melody in ancient Greece, used wide semitones (c. 150 cents). This produces a typical Mediterranean effect.
As an Anatolian Greek, I'm really glad that you managed to touch on the whole ancient Greece = Europe myth. It really bothers me how many scholars continue to try and diminish the "Eastern-ness" of our ancient culture to push a certain historical narrative.
All in all, an amazing video.
Yesterday I was cooking while listening to music in the style of ancient Greece and the lady who was cooking with me asked if that was Japanese music. Now I found this vid
It was also one of my immediate reactions when I first heard Ancient Greek music so I knew I had to make a video about it :)
coincidence? i think not. illuminati stuff 100% (0_0;)
I have little musical training but I like to improvise on the flute a bit. When I ask people who know more about music they will often say I play pentatonic. I skip certain notes because I find them less appealing. My cultural background is Dutch but with a lot of Celtic, Nordic and other folk music. So I guess using pentatonic vs heptatonic comes down to taste, not complexity. I know how to play seven notes, but it sounds more restrained, less flowing to me.
Blew my mind when you played Johnny Cash’s music with Japanese instruments! So interesting how music doesn’t advance, it instead recycles trends for new contexts and times.
We have nothing to do with Japanese music. We came from Alpha Centauri and Zeus is in stasis under the gates of Erebus at Taklamakan desert. The watcher El Sedai put him into stasis after the mutiny of the cyan giants of Olympus. Alexander after fighting against the servants of Lilith and the Gog and Magog, he closed the gates of Erebus once again. My love from Sirius.
Much love from the eastern quadrant of the Andromeda Galaxy
@@faryafaraji just a stone's throw from Kepler 51
How did you know? Your never even born in those time.
@@colonia04 we have the copper books
Εν τάξει, το παράκανες!!!
😂😂😂😂
A really good presentation Farya. I have studied Byzantine, Ancient Greek and western theory and I would make one minor tiny little "objection" (and I am not saying at all that you are wrong) to your conclusion that "they had a heptatonic scale but chose to use only five notes". I see it as a matter of _they were aware of pentatonic and heptatonic systems and chose to either work in one or the other, in the same way that they may have chosen what modes to work in, from a heptatonic system, like diatonic, chromatic, enharmonic etc. The really interesting thing about Ancient Greek music is the fact that some modes have not survived, while the pentatonic system has and is in use in the region of Epiros.
Thanks alot! I don’t disagree with your statement either; I think it’s mostly in how we express the psychological way the Ancient Greeks perceived their own music theory. I was mostly basing it on Hagel’s view that the Greeks seem to have conceived of their own system as a heptatonic one, but I may have misread something.
Faraya, I just wanted to tell you how mindblowingly amazing your content is. I've accidantally stumbled onto your Iran-themed playlist, then went on to the Mesopotamian music video (Bilbamesh rocks), and then this one, and I just lost myself in a day-long binge. Not only you write great music, but as a historian, I've found your musicology videos profoundly fascinating. I also have to thank you, because you are honestly the first person who could explain certain music theory concepts to me in a way that I could understand, something that I struggled with all my life and with various music teachers. I'm an amateur singer who just could never quite grasp the music theory, and every step I take in discovering and understanding the world of music is very important to me, and your content certainly helped me a great deal. Your channel is just an absolute gem of a find, earned yourself a grateful subscriber. Keep doing what you do, and best of luck!
I am a Korean learning ancient Greek. When studying vocabulary, I try to look up the etymology for mnemonics and quite often encounter Greek words which are Korean words' doublets or cousin words. By the way, we have our version of King Midas story written in a 13th century history book, dating back further behind. Here is the link. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Gyeongmun%27s_ear_tale
Greeks: Yes, we invented Japan, too.
Ahaha, you speak greek and know how to pronounce and where to use the greek words, you have a huge language talent there!! 👏
Please do a glossologic video too if you think it's appropriate to your channel!
Greetings from Greece!🇬🇷
PS. Αιμορροΐδες έκλαψα😂
Yeah I heard him say 'πεντε' perfectly and I was like woah hold up he speaks Greek!
I didn't expect sass sprinkled throughout this video! I love your channel so much.
A healthy dose of sass is always great with informative content :p
@@faryafaraji Fantastic video! This is the first time I heard you speak. You have a real radio voice
0:38 the Romans didn’t find the Americas u silly billy.
It was the Persians
It was John America, inventor of America
It was the Americans who found Europe 😳
@@ub3rfr3nzy94 The truth they don’t want us to know
I was reminded of when I used to take guitar lessons as a kid and my teacher told me that I was learning a "pentatonic" blues scale. It sounded like such an esoteric word and I felt so cool. Really interesting video man, really like your informal yet informative style, keep it up!
The man the myth the legend cy aka that guy who helped me get an ace in my history exams for the last four years thank you for being awesome i found you while studying Babylon your video was amazing also the ones on ancient judea and Israel again thanks alot
Aaah the pentatonic blues scale, funny enough Ancient Greeks had that one too; it’s crazy but they had blues/jazz-y sounding melodies
@@wanderingRebel69 thanks man, glad they were helpful!
@@faryafaraji haha yes! I feel so much smarter now every time I play such scales...thanks!
This video is very profound! I learned a lot about music and it is true that many people have this belief of primitive and more advanced music. I also liked your audio examples, they help deliver your message efficiently! If you are interested, the traditional music of Epirus in Greece, is mostly pentatonic, of course parts of other European countries use pentatonic scales too like parts of Hungary, Albania, Poland and Croatia, but since this video is about ancient Greek music I think it's interesting to say that. The traditional Epirotan music is very interesting, because it even uses pentatonic scales for sad themes, something that the vast majority of European cultures find very odd. Nearly all of the 'μοιρολόια' (laments) are played in the pentatonic scale, which they usually play when a local festival begins and when a festival ends as a way of showing that our ancestors and the loved ones who have passed on are still with us. There are even international studies on these lament songs by American and British people. Of course there are many happy songs as well that talk about love, family etc. which are also played in the pentatonic. There are also many Polyphonic songs that are exclusively sung in the pentatonic scale, which I think are very interesting, and sound very ''ancient''. Additionally some ''war'' or ''historical'' songs as people call them which refer to certain incidents that happened throughout history in the region or they even include byzantine themes about the akritai, are also played in the pentatonic scale, though most of them, along with the ''skaros'' or sheperd songs are played in the regional scale of most of central mountainous Greece, which I think is identical to many traditional Carpathian traditional songs. Sorry to bother you about all of that, I just thought that you may find this information useful because I have noticed that you do not only make songs of ancient cultures but also traditional songs. I'm sorry for my English also... hehe.
If you are further interested you can check out these songs in TH-cam:
1) ΜΟΙΡΟΛΟΙ ΗΠΕΙΡΩΤΙΚΟ (με φλογέρα) - Αρτοπούλα Ιωαννίνων ,
2) Ηπειρώτικο μοιρολόγι 1926
3) ΔΗΜΟΤΙΚΗ ΜΟΥΣΙΚΗ - Ηπειρώτικο μοιρολόι [Τ.Χαλκιάς]
4) Μοιρολόι - Από πέρα απ' το ποτάμι (Πολυφωνικό)
5) Δημήτρης Υφαντής - ''Μαριόλα'' - Ηπειρώτικο Μοιρολόι (20/2/2016) Στην υγειά μας ρε παιδιά
6) Ποιμενικό - φλογέρα
7) Φλογέρα - Κρανιά Γρεβενών
8) ΣΤΗΣ ΠΙΚΡΟΔΑΦΝΗΣ ΤΟΝ ΑΝΘΟ - ΑΡΕΤΗ ΚΕΤΙΜΕ
9)
Πωγωνίσιο 1
10) "Άιντε Μάρω στο πηγάδι" - η "Χαονία" στην Μεγάλη Γιορτή Πολυφωνικού Τραγουδιού 2017
11) Αλησμονώ και χαίρομαι ~ Πολυφωνικό Β.Ηπείρου [Το Αλάτι της Γης]
The first 5 are lament songs, the 6th and 7th are sheperd songs, the 8th and 9th are famous traditional dance songs and the 10th and 11th are polyphonic songs. Cheers!
Keep blessing us with more of these videos!
Fascinating, thanks so much for mentionning those! I remember Steven Hagel’s book mentionning those pentatonic Epirus songs as one of the reasons why the pentatonic theory blew up in the debate for some years. I never got around to hearing those; I’ll make good use of your list!
And yeah, it’s indeed strange to most hears how laments could be pentatonic; most people like me tend to receive the pentatonic sound as being more lighthearted, but this proves another fundamental concept in musicology: different cultures interpret ideas differently through music: what might sound sad to a Westerner might sound neutral to an Iranian, etc
@@faryafaraji I'm glad you like the list! What you say about different cultures is very true, this is why I love listening to traditional music from around the world, it broadens the mind with all these different perspectives. Now that you mention Iranian music, it would be great if you made a video analyzing the traditional music of Iran, maybe introduce us to the scales and the instruments, just a thought. :)
✨💗🌻🍀
Wait. I'm Hungarian and y'all dont do pentatonic sad songs? I thought pentatonics are the sadder sounding of our tradition. Maybe because the majority of them are la-pentatonic, evolving into dorian mode.
Pentatonic is still used in traditional music of Hepirus
Dude, this was bloody fascinating!!
extremely engaging presentation. thank you.
with regards the japanese /greek relationship - Japanese language (unlike other eastern asian languages) is phonetically reminiscent of Greek. I have tested this concept by having japanese students recite greek phrases. Pronunciation was perfect. Blindfold the listener and there was no distinguishing.
Best Regards Evangelos
In today's Greece, where we use the heptatonic system, there are still regions like Epirus where exclusively the pentatonic scale is used.
This could imply that, similar to today, in the Ancient Greek world, regardless of whether the heptatonic approach was known or used, the Pentatonic scale maintained a special position in certain types of songs or was indeed applied due to a narrow local tradition.
Furthermore, delving into the music of Ethiopia, which is predominantly pentatonic (look for videos of people playing the Ethiopian Krar and Masenqo), it seems that we are not an exception, and indeed pentatonicism is a primitive perception of tones and scales, with incredibly strong foundations within us.
Also, observe the strong connection between the Krar and the ancient Greek lyre.
Υou're a great narrator and a more accurate greek pronouncer!
For some reason, when we talk about Greek folk music, only Epirus is mentioned for its use of pentatonic scales. Actually pentatonic repertoire exists all over continental Greece, from Macedonia down to the Peloponnese, and also in neighbouring non-Greek areas in the Balkans, notably (but not exclusively) Albania. This repertoire might possibly originate from some ancient root distinct from that of the rest of Greek folk music, which is basically modal and related to Turkish and other oriental traditions.
Am completely in love with the musicology and theory video series you've been putting together. I will continue to make your videos everyone's problem just as much as I do that with your own music. I think my brother and I mused over the idea a few years ago but I could well be wrong, I just do remember remarking on this similarity before and it's great to have some of my thoughts be vocalised so well. Killer stuff
this has gotta be one of the most interesting channels on youtube atm
This reminds me of sudan...
We use arabic instruments but we use the pentatonic scale too,
Some sudanese music also use the qanun (a zither)
In China and Japan they have different kind of zithers but they do have it too..
The Sudanese Rababah (not the Egyptian one) sounds like a shamisen to alot of Sudanese people..infact alot of Sudanese stringed instruments sound like japanese and Chinese instruments ...but I guess that's normal ,
Sudanese music uses other scales than the pentatonic scales but I kinda wonder why the pentatonic scale is prominent?
I watched your conversation with Luke Ranieri, which was epic and this video is exactly what I've been looking for for the longest time...I love history, specifically, Greek, Roman and Japanese. You my friend have a new student/subscribers to this wonderful channel
Another great video Farya!
I would really like to know your take on why Cretan music is a lot more like near eastern music than the Greek mainland music which is more Balkan influenced. I am Cretan and it has always struck me that there is such a huge difference between the styles.
In fact, in eastern Asia we use heptatonic as well, but yes, we kind of think of it like pentatonic with two extra drifting notes.
And yes, more and more different variations of drifting notes were come out through the history, and that might be the history how Eurasian people coming from pentatonic to heptatonic.
But no, in fact, if you guys listen to Gagaku, you will find notes drifting in different ways even sometime inside a phrase. It goes beyond fixed seven notes. This microtonal drift is also could be polyphonic, and even combine drift with stepping on scale to build polyphonic lines. Somehow, I kind of don't fully agree with the point that western music dropped microtonal because of polyphony in another video.
But still, a huge appreciating for your works, that explore all different musical ideas from different cultures throughout the whole continent.
Farya, I've enjoyed this relaxing and in-depth discussion. Even simply as a hypothesis - you've made it educating and worth watching.
Thanks and mulţumesc Nessie, always glad to hear from you :p
Really liked this video. The way it was presented, the sources being discussed and how it went to its conclusion while keeping a stream of consciousness (and informal) style. However I did notice some repetition, which really doesn't bother me that much, but could cut down the video length slightly. Please do keep up this great work!
Farya makes educational videos but doesn't fail to make me laugh at his intros, dude should also be a comedian 😂
I have to say, this was an absolutely fantastic video! I dare say that this documentary series gets me even more excited than your songs. These grounded scientific videos about ancient history and music are very valuable. I love the structure of this video and I also enjoy the funny moments. The chairman of China seemingly enjoying a Chinese Johnny Cash song is absolutely gold. Please continue this awesome series!
Thanks a whole lot!
I was kind of expecting you to come to such a conclusion. Most modern guitarists still start out with pentatonic scales in order to learn how to play solo parts, especially in blues-rock where pentatonic melodies occur very often.
Man I love these educational videos. Keep the good work
I fell in an ancient byzantine music rabbit hole and ended up in this particular video, hooked for 40 minutes straight! You did a great job. And since I also studied ethnology, I am really happy with the way you underlined the fact that, the way we think, greatly affects the way we view other cultures, contemporary or former ones. (p.s Oxygenos Aimorroides seems perfectly ok for royal name btw).
Came for the fun facts and beautiful pieces of folk music. Got a lesson on rational thinking on top of all that. Amazing job, dear author! I'm only left to wonder what the origins of your many talents and ways of reasoning are, I think we deserve a little bit of autobiography on this channel (if there was some, please, pinpoint me to that)
Even though I know nothing about music professionaly this video is so relaxing to listen to. I'm very excited to hear your soundtrack for the CKIII mod! I can't express how happy I am hearing that you're going to make it!
Congratulations for the depth and precision of your documentaries!
I am in love with these videos and can't get enough merci farya
You are an excellent communicator. Great at breaking down technical topics for the layperson (or lay-nerd I suppose) and motivating why the audience should care in the first place
Thank you, nice video. I want to add that most Greek music is blues. Lost love and so on. American blues is also mostly pentatonic, and you can find that also in Celtic music. Celtic music often sounds like Greek Island music. If you incorporate Celtic and folk music and the southern blacks, whose music roots were pentatonic, into the mix, pentatonic melodies are the most likely natural outcome.
I really enjoyed your video.
Just wanted to say, this was absolutely fascinating! Honestly, thank you for providing such interesting lectures for us laymen! Greatly appreciated!
Now that’s a weird title.
I really like the way that you framed the video getting us very primed to find the theory credible by playing the pentatonic piece and talking through the ancient sources, which of course have this aura of authority and wisdom.
Then I love how you went through all the logical fallacies at the end, esp about music evolution not progressing towards some ultimate quality or complexity, but being a constantly morphing art form where innovations in one generation won't necessarily be taken up and carried forward to the next, because sensibilities and styles change!
New instruments get built, others pass into obscurity, regimes come to power, cultures get invaded. Music changes throughout time for all sorts of reasons, and sometimes it's just that people liked the way it sounded better another way.
Nice video, didn't know such theories existed
Hey Farya, I found your channel last autumn and love your work. As a fellow(?) ethnomusicologist/music archaeologist/lover of all types of music, I really appreciate what you do to help break down the lingering influence of things like cultural evolution theory and all of that. It's pernicious innit. :D
I wanted to comment on a few points in your video. It's not so much that Japanese music uses pentatonic scales, it's the specific *kinds* of pentatonic scales they use that make it distinctive--it's the presence of what westerners would call the 'augmented 2nd' intervals. It's important to note that these kinds of pentatonic scales (I think Japanese music uses at least 3 different forms of these?) are very rare in other East Asian music--the Chinese and Mongolians don't use them, and I don't think Koreans or Vietnamese do either afaik. OTOH, augmented 2nd scales or modes--in Arab maqam it = the Hijaz maqam more or less--are as you've talked about elsewhere quite common west of China. But they tend to be heptatonic. I don't really have a solid theory about why this is atm but i'm sure someone does :D .
A second point I would mention--and since this was an intro video to the subject, maybe it would've been too much to get into more idk--related to Greek tetrachords, is the structure of the Greek chromatic and enharmonic modal genera. These are the modes that *really* start sounding like Japanese music, b/c the intervallic structures of enharmonic and chromatic modes are very similar to the Japanese In and related modes. However, we do know the principles behind how the Greeks arrived at these kinds of modes so it's not *that* much of a mystery. OTOH we have no evidence of similar scales/modes from the Near East at that time, or anywhere between Greece and Japan for that matter, so Sach's Eurasian Common Ancestor Theory based on presence of pentatonic scales really has zero bearing on this at all. It can't account for this similarity, but it seems pretty clear that the Greeks had their own rationale for such scales, independent of how Japanese developed them, and within the historical period, not thousands of years in prehistory in some mystical age of hobbits and dragons...
For that matter, we also know how the Chinese arrived at their, more common and familiar types of pentatonic scales--they did so mathematically, based on the first 5 overtones of the Circle of 5ths. The Chinese had mathematically derived the entire 12-note chromatic series from the overtone series very early, and they knew and used heptatonic and octatonic (including the octave note) very early as well. BUT, they consciously chose pentatonic modes to be the dominant modes in their music b/c of cosmological, philosophical and theological reasons. Pentatonic scales could be constructed from a series of totally pure 5th intervals, so it was perfectly in balance and thus reflected and created a reflection of heavenly/earthly balance, thus ethical balance, thus ideal rulership and ruler/subjects relations. It's *like* the Pythagorean Harmony of the Spheres idea, but the Chinese developed this on their own and in different directions from the Greeks, who based it on perfectly tuned tetrachords and consonances; who scarcely cared about the octave; and who never developed the concept of the 12 note chromatic series. The Circle of 5ths troubled the Greeks, b/c when you took it up high enough the octaves stopped being perfectly equivalent to their lower counterparts, that annoying pythagorean comma that f***ed up all their beautiful mathematical simple ratios for consonant intervals.
Other cultures, however, probably had their own reasons for using pentatonic scales, like for example in polyphonic singing in the western steppes, singing in intervals like 4ths and 5ths is, so to speak, a pretty intuitive, 'natural' and logical way to sing--they carry well across the wide open steppes and you can sing along with your mates who may be a ways off from you. (As a contrast, in the Balkans there's polyphonic singing in very very close intervals, kind of 'enharmonic'-ish in Greek terms, that's typically done indoors or with the singers very close together--b/c they can hear and physically feel the proper beat pulses of the small intervals). So it's not necessary to posit a common ancestor at all.
Anyways, I haven't seen all your videos yet so maybe you go into a lot of that elsewhere. Thought I'd mention it if only for your viewers' interest, to complement your fine video discussion. :)
This comment is so incredibly interesting!
@@scottbellamy1701 thanks, I'm glad you found it so. :)
Great video again Farya, with a great lesson: "music does not work like science or technology .. it does not advance". It is hard to grasp for people who live in a world where everything is graded.
Holy shiz I just found your channel. This is god tier
Love your ted talks😅
Anyways, I've been learning so much on this channel.
Να 'σαι καλά.
This is so scholarly & interesting. U explained this so well.
I'm enjoying your videos. I really liked the Microtone one
This is a really interesting topic, I never thought about it before, but now I got the chance. "Oxygenos Hemoroidos" though, the best name ever.
Cant wait to see what video topic you'll come up with next.
"...and 徳川 家康 's real name was Οξυγένος Αιμορροΐδες"
😂
Thank you for touching on such an obscure subject matter
The Hemoroides Shogunate will rise again like Oxygenos did at ... Termopigahara...
Long Live the Hemoroides Shogunate of the Gyros-Tanaka Clan
The great Alexios Anastasios Mitsuhirato will arise
This is brilliant! Keep up the good work!
Excellent presentation
Thanks Angelo!
Super interesting! So glad I found your channel! We have very similar interests :) One thing that is worth mentioning is that there are many pentatonic ragas too!
👏👏 man, you gotta do more of this
Congrats for your content!
Great video, really loved the comprehensive content and how you presented it. I love music, abut do not have a lot of knowledge about music theory and videos like that really fill a gab for me.
I also have a question. There are sources that claim, ancient Greek philosophers particularly liked the number 5 and traced it back to the 4 cardinal elements of earth, air, fire and water + 1 the ether, connecting them as their source. Could you imagine that the choice to use a pentatonic system could have been made in an attempt to connect to the divine? I mean most ancient Greek music that survived are hymns to the gods, like the hymn to Apollon that you played in the video.
Thanks alot Daniel! As for your question, it’s possible, but Greeks never had a pentatonic system per-se, they viewed their system as heptatonic and only skipped certain notes to produce what we call a pentatonic sound, but there’s no evidence that the Greeks viewed their system as anything other than heptatonic; the concept of pentatonicism didn’t even seem to be a thing for them.
That said, the Pythagorean school had a particular fondness for applying mathematical logic to how they created music, and to them, it was projecting the divine law of nature, although in their case, it had more to do with the pitch intervals between notes, and there were always 7 in their case too.
This is so interesting because as a kid I really felt a melodic connection, I think they really share a very how to say it a ritual involved with nature, also perhaps the thing about pentantonic perhaps because music was used a lot with rapsodous? My mind is a bit clouded but anyway it had a lot of syllabic notes? Because it accompanied the story that was being told
The comparison of pottery between the Cucuteni-Trypillia culture in the area of Romania and Ukraine and Yangshao in China share remarkable similarities in design and symbols. For instance, there are ying- yang symbols on the Cucuteni pottery. So there must have been a Eurasian belt that connected these two cultures.
Very interesting subject to tackle. I'll have to listen to this when I'm not going to sleep so I can appreciate it properly. I really wish I could see into the deep past so I could answer questions like, which music/languages/traditions really have common origins. Sadly, I have no such powers. Yet.
Finally I found time for listening! Pure gold video! I stand by you about the doremi question, we Italians and Iranians, very ancient civilizations, should not give up to barbarian hordes and their kindergarten music😂😂 anyway very good explanation, I really think you should write a book one day. Or maybe an ebook with music 😁Keep up with the good work and cheers from Italy!
I like how you asked those of us who do not know music theory to just follow with you and assured us that you would explain it in a way we could understand. And you did. "They thought it sounded cool." Indeed a perfect explanation. 🧡 I didn't even know there was such a thing as a pentatonic scale. I am learning so much from your channel.
Really interesting. You know a lot of Irish/Scottish Gaelic folk music was, and still is pentatonic. We also use some melisma in the very old style 'sean nos' singing.
Very interesting as always. 👏👏
0:19 not only he is a great musician but also a good memer
My proudest skill
Great video! A very similar minor pentatonic scale also exists in Ethiopian music. It was pretty surprising when I first heard it! Also I really appreciate you pointing out the fallacy of equating simplicity with "primitiveness" for non-white cultures. I've seen similar fallacies with languages too.
encontre tu canal por lo de la musica romana " sons of mars " ahora me subscribo por este video
Thanks for a great video. There is a Finnish (and thus linguistically non-indoeuropean) tradition of pentatonic music as well. Seems our old epic poetry was sung within that musical style for hundreds of years. This poetry was collected by university folks some 200 years ago, we also have some recordings of poem-singers from the early times of recording technology. It is highly pentatonic. Sung with the accompanying instrument, the kantele, a five string thing. Check the epic Kalevala, if you please. Really loved the "Oxygenos Hemorroides" piece and the dramatic reversal in your script about the complexity and non-complexity explanations in past musicologal history. Hearkens to ornithology where older species may have had more complex song patterns.
This video deserves much more recognition.
I wanted to comment on the quote at 13 minutes in. I had read a similar translation, except the translator used the term "notes" specifically. I had interpreted that to mean certain ancient Greek composers imposed restrictions on themselves, similar to modern shape note singing. This makes a lot more sense however.
I mean you’re not wrong, it was basically them voluntarily omitting some of the notes to produce a pentatonic effect. They were “restricting” themselves to 3 notes in a tetrachord instead of 4. We know they had a heptatonic system back them and conceived of their modes heptatonically, so to them, it would have been a limitation of a “bigger” mode
there is a theory of Great Alexander or his soldiers have traveled to japan by a form of a submarine. mindblowing? i know.
Excellent work.
So interesting! This made me think of the Grecian red pottery and other instances of restrained pallettes in visual artwork and of different poetry forms (like haiku). There's a special kind of creative joy that comes from limitation and seeing what can be derived from a simple starting place.
I'm not sure if you have done this video yet, but since you mentioned Southeast Asia in this video, i wonder if you will cover the music of this reason. I can think of so many fascinating aspects of things like gamelan or even the tribal music of Borneo.
I don't disagree with the debunking of a dubious theory, but there were connections between Japan and Greece, though, through Buddhism. Buddhism started in Northwestern India a bit before Alexander's conquest of Persia and Greek statuary traditions were influential via the furthest east of the Hellenistic workd, the Greco-Bactrian Kingdom, Indo-Greek Kingdom, and Greco-Buddhism (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhism). Buddhism didn't get to Japan until the 6th Century CE, though China, and it traveled eastward along the Silk Road.
Anyway, I agree, lots of melodies are pentatonic... country, blues, many jazz melodies. Check out a lot of Ellington's melodies, for instance, or "I've Got Rhythm". You can harmonize a pentatonic melody much more freely and they're much more singable than more complicated ones.
Exactly, Japanese Greek connections start in the Hellenistic era; many centuries after the first instances of this similar pentatonic mode in Greek music of earlier Antiquity. Greco-Buddhism doesn’t any way constitute evidence for this theory, as I’m sure you’ll agree
@@faryafaraji 100% agree... the theory seems pretty sketchy.
One thing you didn't discuss was the fact that there are limitations imposed by instrument technology. Complex tuning systems like 12TET that enable polyphony require a huge amount of development. On the other hand, there'd be no reason to develop that kind of system without the desire for polyphony, so you're right, it's ultimately an aesthetic choice at the bottom, or at least a reinforcing cycle.
Cicada here in Japan is honestly very loud and annoying, the opposite of calm, but thank you for this super cool video
This is an excellent video, and I will just pop in and say that I'm researching these things right now, and the question of what was up with that ancient Babylonian music (assuming you are talking about the texts from Ugarit) has been like a 75 year crazy fight between researchers, so I don't know if it is settled enough to totally destroy Sachs' theory (at least the part of it about interconnectedness). Ancient Chinese and Ancient Indian texts similarly described mathematical derivation for scales beyond the pentatonic (check out the Yue Ji and the Natya Shastra if you haven't).This stuff is all super interesting, and I think there is legitimate evidence for some cross-pollination between ancient cultures :)
Thanks for the recommendation about Indian and Chinese texts, I’ll check them out! Regading Mesopotamia, there’s indeed alot of controversy regarding what the actual melodies of the Hurrian Hymns would have been, but to my understanding, the heptatonicism of their musical system is not one of the controversial elements; everyone I’ve read so far universally maintains that their modes were a seven note system. In other words, the melodies of the Hurrian Hymns themselves are not settled, but the heptatonicism of their system itself is, there’s not a shadow of a doubt about that. This is what destroys Curt Sach’s view-his entire theory rested on the assumption that earlier Mesopotamian music had to be pentatonic, but there’s no direction in that evidence.
Hi Sarah, I don't think hardly anyone with any standing still subscribes to Sach's theory these days. Farya is right, the controversy about the Ugarit texts centers mostly on how the notation texts seem to indicate two-part music, and this indication of polyphony was deemed unacceptable to many of the early scholars to study these texts. B/c, you know, multi-part music did not happen until the European Middle Ages, in Europe, invented by Europeans yadda yadda. But even that controversy is simmering down lately. There's other controversies, mostly centered around a certain R. Dumbrill, but these are controversies made up by him and the only ones who take him seriously are innocent postgrad students just starting out...
But I digress . There's definitely evidence of cross-pollination, however the evidence all comes rather late, starting from around 300 BCE onwards. The Greek conquest and then long-lingering influence of and on Iran, Central Asia and western India seems to be the starting point, and then the spread of Buddhism into Gandhara, Central Asia, from around 200-100 BCE to about 500 CE pushed it onto a new level. This is around when contacts between China and India began in earnest, and China of course received tons of musical influences from the western lands via Silk Road trade.
Before then though...well we know that there was a full-fledged civilization between Mesopotamia/Western Iran and India, the Bactria-Marghiana Archaeological Complex (BMAC they call it) that goes back to at least ~2600 BCE. We know that Sumeria already had fairly extensive trade contacts with it all the way into what's now Tajikistan. We know that Sumeria also had contacts with India (Meluhha, iirc), and that these were important enough to have resident translators, merchants, and other diplomatic and trade personnel living semi-permanently in some Sumerian cities. We pretty much know that there were Sumerians residing in trade and political centers in Meluhha and BAMC too, and for a time even in the north Caucasus Mt. region. And, we know that it was standard for all of them to send diplomatic gift exchanges back and forth to each other, often, and that gifts of musicians, singers, and dancers, even whole orchestras, were common. So we can surmise from all this that there must have cross-pollinations musically, but we don't really know anything about what they consisted of or what they looked/sounded like.
@@almishtiAh, good old Dumbrill lol. I really have a lot, and I mean alot of respect for much of his work, but man, I feel like he could have been such a more respected figure if he didn't go too far with his speculations because the man is extremely knowledgeable in many aspects.
The straw that broke the camel's back for me is his insistence that the current music of the Middle-East, especially the "typical Middle-Eastern" sounding modes (Hijaz, Bayat, that whole gang) all existed as far back as Mesopotamian times, even though there's no solid evidence for it. I did contact him personally to ask him why his reconstructions of the Hurrian Hymns are in Hijazkar-like intervals, and in between the vague answers and the research I did, the best I could gather from it was that he once played his reconstruction of the Hurrian Hymns in the accepted diatonic modes to an Arab audience, and the Arabs said it would sound better in Hijazkar. Dumbrill took that as evidence that they must be right, because they're from the region after all, and there must be some ancient memory speaking from within them. This approach is beyond unscientific.
Nobody:
Absolutely nobody:
This theory: Alexandros Shippuden: Taiko Phalanx
I would lowkey watch an Alexander the Great anime. He destroys the Persian army with a giant mecha
@@faryafaraji The series we need, but not the series we deserve. Imagine him going full super saiyan at Darius during the Battle of Gaugamela, hahaha!
@@Taizongdoingexercise good neptune
@@Taizongdoingexercise I KNOW WHAT I AM WATCHING NEXT, THANK YOU😂
@@Taizongdoingexercise thanks a lot
Thank you for this informative logical explanation
Bro this is so interesting make more videos like these pls
Love your username 👌
@@faryafaraji thanks bro 💯💯💯
Some musicologists say that gregorian chant originated from a pentatonic framework that later developed and received a structure in eigth modes; also this pentatonic framework can be viewed as a based on a trichord (guido d'arezzo later used hexachord to think about the chant, so the eclesiastical modes were not heptatonic before the late middle ages) - dó ré mi ( or fá sol lá) - these three "tonics" in a pentatonic framework constitute with patterns of intonations the three "ancient modes" of cantilation (sol lá dó with dó as recitation tone, la dó ré with ré as recitation tone and dó ré mi with mi as recitation tone; in sanctus XVIII you can see the "mi mode" and the "ré mode" in two distinct parts of the music and modulations to the "dó" as final in some cadences). The eight modes came from a chant and liturgy reform in Jerusalem/Syria, and after were spread to all cristianity. There are ancient pieces in the repertory entire in pentatonic major scale and pieces that are inclassificable in the system of eigth modes (some medieval assigned to VIIth mode, to IVth, to IIth and to Ith the same melody). The interpretation of the western modes as the same as the greek modes was based on the medieval music academical discussions more than some pedagogical discussions elaborated by singers of chant. For these latter between the VIII and XI centuries there was "protus authenticus mode" and not "dorian mode" (the later modern dorian western mode is actually similar to the phrygian greek mode).
It’s called convergence, cultures that are very far away one from the other can solve a wide range of things the same way. It just comes naturally.
For example: you’re over thirteen hundred years away from the Sassanian dynasty , notwithstanding that you have practically the same hairstyle of Shahansha Shapur I or
Khosraw I, totally Persian!👍🏻😜.
Now, seriously, your knowledge is amazing. Thanks for this wonderful videos!
26:10 First logical fallacy: this one writer talked about trichords, so we had pentatonic scales > There's more to add here: a trichord doesn't have to be a tetrachord minus one of the middle notes. In makam music (Turkey, Arab world, and a bit of Greece), which is based on tetrachordal and pentachordal structures, there are also a few trichords to be found, and these consist of three successive notes without gaps, e.g. mi-fa-sol (segah trichord).
Hey I know how hard videos are to edit, So if it means meaningful sacrifice else where by all means dont worry about it because the Auto Generated ones are *fine* they're just not great, I'd love it if you were to add Subtitles for your Videos. I both am Autistic and like Half Deaf, so I tend to just default to having them on, and as I said the Auto generated ones are fine, But they can be a bit inconsistent and in some places incorrect.
But as I said, having made TH-cam stuff myself I know how time consuming it is, so If it means less videos, or less rigorously researched videos etc by all means its no problem, Just a suggestion/request
Dear Farya thanks for your excellent contributions.Concerning pentatonicity you should know that many of the most ancient musical pieces namely from Epiros are pentatonic and still played today.the Demotika master musicians there know how to play the melodies both in penta and hepta division.if you want tell me how to reach you and we can discuss this topic and many others in detail.
6:52 Just facts, no one can change my mind; Do ré mi fa sol la si is like the language of the gods.
I support the Siberian gulag punishment for anyone who uses ABC instead of Do Ré Mi
Moi aussi, je prépare le train en avance... Oulà on est sur une pente dangereuse là XD
I agree. Here I am, speaking modern barbarian just for practical reasons and I love do re mi fa sol la si. That's how I learned music
@@Diogolindir Lol I also use A B C all the time, it’s more useful in English contexts
@@faryafaraji Now, imagine, in Germany we use... cdefga*H*c ! HHHHH instead of B! It took me roughly 20 years to notice that the note names are based on the ABC.
Very good and informative video! Congratulations! What is the name of the ancient greek song played on 7:57 ?
I don’t remember the exact name of the track, but I know it’s one of Petros Tabouris’ reconstructions :)
ممنون برای توضیح برادر
37:05 When you started to sing the country music it crossed my mind if the country musician weren't influenced by the native american music...and if they were, my observetion is that native american culture preserved a lot a of elements from the paleo-siberian culture....just a thought ;-) Greating from Hungary
One visceral reaction I had to you playing the in scale on the koto was to the missing ornaments :P
It sounded unmusical/too primitive
You're quickly becoming a favourite person of mine to watch on youtube...
I LOVE your music AND the educational aspect you bring to the presentation of that music and greater music theories! I’m also so glad you touched on that whole myth of “the west”. I was just looking into that further and it drives me nuts how much of actual history gets changed to serve a specific, very biased and often racist view point. But at least music has the power to put an end to a large amount of these silly assertions. Ockham’s Razor indeed!❤❤❤
Playing pentatonic also allows the thumb to 'hang loose' which generally allows for a more relaxed vibe.