THE EARLIER VIDEO I MADE CITED HERE CAN BE SEEN HERE: th-cam.com/video/gr9586Dlq4E/w-d-xo.html discount 1000 B.C babylonian looking bloke says words.png In this video, I want to take a complete look at the myth of the Norse having overtone throat singing, and deconstruct this myth with a critical ethnomusicological lens. The point of the video is to show that insufficient understanding of basic ethnomusicological realities in pop-culture has allowed for the dissemination of this myth with no basis in any kind of evidence, or more importantly, logic. Rather than just being a debunking of the myth, it is more importantly an example in critical thinking and how to approach ethnomusicological questions with a proper scientific approach. And some Britney Spears thrown into the mix because your boy lowkey loves Britney Spears and Womanizer is better than any music I’ve ever made. Sources: Throat singing in Old Norse culture? by Nóel Braucher * www.academia.edu/22666429/Throat_Singing_in_Old_Norse_Culture *I have to add a massive addendum to this source. Braucher's academic specialisation is in Icelandic Language and Literature, not any form of musicology, and their paper shows. The first part of the paper brilliantly shows their background in literature and how they expertly delve into the sources and the evolving translations, but the second part of the paper is a very weak attempt at coming up with arguments to support the idea of the Norse having throat singing, and Braucher ends the paper with the statement that the notion has strong indications and evidence behind it, although they manage to show no such indication or evidence. Because I know some of the dissenters will object to my statement that "no musicologist supports the idea of the Norse having throat singing as a likely possibility," by pointing out that this source does that, let me clarify that Braucher isn't a musicologist. They're a specialist of language and literature, and that makes them as qualified to tackle ethnomusicological questions as a Norse weapons expert can tackle Norse ship-building, which is not at all. Braucher's arguments to support throat singing are extremely weak and show a lack of a solid grasp of ethnomusicology; arguments like "throat singing is connected to the circumpolar peoples," and they also mention the Inuits. This is a classic misconception that no ethnomusicologists would make; throat singing has no intrinsic connection to circumpolar peoples; the Inuits have nothing remotely similar to the overtone throat singing discussed here, and Sardinians and South Africans also have throat singing. Point is, whilst Braucher is obviously qualified to tackle literature, they were not, at the point of writing this paper, qualified to tackle ethnomusicological questions, and the weakness of the arguments in the second part of the paper shows. The most blaring problem with the paper is its very premise: starting from the conclusion of throat singing and working their way backwards. Had they presented their paper in a music history or ethnomusicology program, the paper would have been rejected at the very start on the basis that it should have been structured as "What could Ibn Yaqub's passage mean?", which is the proper scientific way to go about it, rather than asking "Does Ibn Yaqbu's passage mean throat singing?" which is a pop-culturally influenced, extremely biased premise that brings in the external factor of modern pop-culture into the historical records, using it as the premise from which to build the argumentation to begin with, which is antithetical to the scientific method in music history. So keep in mind that whilst the paper is a great resource when it comes to the literature in question, it is also a prime example of poorly informed ethnomusicological argumentation that I'm criticising in this video. "What did they sound like? Reconstructing the music of the Viking Age by Chihiro Larissa Tsukamoto" www.academia.edu/31493503/What_did_they_sound_like_Reconstructing_the_music_of_the_Viking_Age "People and Their Soundscape in Viking-Age Scandinavia Critical Reflections in a Music-Archaeological Perspective" by Cajsa S. Lund www.academia.edu/31773185/Cajsa_S_Lund_People_and_Their_Soundscape_in_Viking_Age_Scandinavia_Critical_Reflections_in_a_Music_Archaeological_Perspective_Studien_zur_Musikarch%C3%A4ologie_VII Tacitus's Germania, link 1: www.gutenberg.org/files/7524/7524-h/7524-h.htm Tacitus's Germania, link 2: www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0083%3Achapter%3D3 00:00 Intro 03:21 The “barking dogs” account 07:57 Tacitus’ Germanic tribes account 09:52 The poor quality of Internet discussions 21:54 “We can assume they had throat singing because they were pagans” 25:48 “Throat singing is found all over the world” 29:26 Anything that isn’t impossible isn’t automatically a serious hypothesis 36:51 A fundamental hypocrisy 42:46 Manipulative language 46:50 Conclusion
Good video for those who might actually not understand these things, but I think you give the culture grifters and their followers far more credit as thinking beings than they deserve. Top tier know the truth but are greedy. Bottom tier know the truth but are needy. Their "reasoning" is nonsense and they know it. They aren't trying to have a discussion. They are yelling nonsense loudly to signal their loyalty to "white" supremacy. There is no point to explain anything to them. This is good prevention for those on the edge who still have a brain and a will, to not fall down that hole though.
Interesting I wonder where the finished land in this because they are culturally similar to the Norse butt very distinct being from the phenol kick group culturally. The closest siblings are the Hungarians so perhaps they had throat singing and that would not be that much of a stretch for it to transfer from Finland That is had a settled area of in order to ask for the last at least 8 thousand years give or take a few thousand. (Archaeology is hard) Amazing video and discussion of the sources I wish more people would talk about this online like that like were actually in an academic setting but usually it's screaming in racism being thrown out everywhere so good work on you.
I think we need to seriously consider the possibility that the Vikings were yodeling tap-dancers that liked to through in jazz hands at the ends of songs. It's not impossible, there's no evidence against it
Have you considered that ancient norse had access to Wardruna? historical records of Wardruna are very sparse before 2003 and we can't discount the hypothesis that Wardruna as a band was active in that region.
There are some artifacts like some kind of documents, like a birth certificate or hospital register written in a language that it's not English dating back to sixties and seventies which could be related to wardruna, like confirming the existence of some of their members, but we can't be sure. it's pending close examination 😅😅😅😅
The main problem I have with arguing with people about stuff like this. Especially American Neo-Norse Pagan types is that debating them isn't even fun. You can point to historical facts all day with them about how Viking music sounded, what their religious rituals could have looked like and even that the Vikings were a small group of people in the Scandinavian population and they'll just repeat their romanticized viewpoints on "muh ancestors". When I debate people like a Bulgarian man I know who swore that Achilles from The Iliad was actually an ancient Bulgarian warrior whose powers came from the fact that he was actually just Bulgarian at least the debate itself is fun.
Part of the reason it's not even fun is because it's such a mainstream viewpoint now. Pop culture has really ruined my interest in talking to anyone about most of Scandinavian history. Luckily, if you are of northern European ancestry and you want to learn more about that stuff, there's always the Balts, the Finns, and the Slavs.
I do Viking reenactment and it’s kind of shocking how common the Viking throat singing stuff is in the community. It’s just kind of funny that the same people that spend months researching Norse dyes to authentically reproduce a fabric and hand stitch a shirt based on a grave find fragment and period illustrations will also do Vikings throat singing and not question it.
There’s a great point repeatedly made by Jackson Crawford that we tend to be more focused on material historical accuracy than anything else. If you were to give Vikings a Chinese sword in a movie, people would lose their minds, but you give them throat singing from virtually the same distance geographically, and the same fanboys will die on the hill that there’s nothing wrong with it
yup, in my group it is the same. I showed them traditional skandinavian music, even medieval music which is written in runes and notes in danemark. And what was it what they said? Boring.
@@faryafaraji That is very true. You definitely see a lot of people lose their minds over small material issues in historical movies or of media and tend to completely ignore how they are portraying the cultural attitudes or lifestyles the people had which in my mind is far more significant to understanding the past. You mentioned that part of that is people trying to backdate our cultural view of the past on them and it reminds me of a major point of historiography. The past is a foreign county. Not literally of course but when we try to treat it like it is how we are now or in this case how we perceive them now but to treat it like a foreign country you don’t know anything about because it pretty much is.
I love that an ethnocentric Arab traveller with a clear distaste for the Norse is given such a charitable interpretation by modern people just to avoid the uncomfortable idea that people from all cultures are capable of being culturally insensitive.
Great point. We’re so used to only associating this kind of behaviour to recent Western colonisation that we forget this is literally the same thing: some guy from a technologically more advanced literary culture treating foreign natives like savages and looking down on them. Our boy Ibn Yaqub was literally just being racist lol
The only exception, maybe, is "ok, we only have information from Greek and Roman geographers who are not really reliable". Right, because if you read what they wrote would make your skin crawl. And let's not dive into the unfortunate implications of the Chinese explorers.......
Adding my (very cheap) two cents here : in today's traditional way of celebrating birthdays in Sweden, we sing a song and then everyone shouts "hurrah ! hurrah ! hurrah ! hurraaaaaaah !". THAT does sound quite a bit like "dogs barking". Much more than kargyraa in any case.
The only youtuber with whom I can learn, vibe to music AND crack a laugh multiple times in 1 video. Never thought throat singing would make for a topic worth several videos of debunking.
I've seen at least two primary sources describing my own ancestors the same way, by which logic I am forced to conclude that the Norse were secretly Slavs all along.
Did the Norse trade or rule over them at some point? I think I heard that they were invited into Ukraine in the past… maybe there was some cultural exchange!
@@jannafrancis7452 "Slav" as we think of it today is a bunch of different cultures mixed together. For example Eastern Slavic culture was heavily influenced by Rurik Dynasty who's leaders were Varangians (vikings) but today eastern slavic culture has just blended in with general slavic culture. This is a whole political/nationalist thing in eastern europe today, surrounding whether or not the Rus culture developed under the Varangians or whether the Rus culture already existed and the Varangians simply ran things for a while. It's crazy, how angry people get over it.
@@jannafrancis7452 Yep! There are historically well-attested trade routes down from the Baltic to the Dnieper and the Black Sea, and there were definitely Norse dynastic families in modern day Ukraina, Belarus and Russia. But it was initially German and Scandinavian scholars proposing that the Kievan Rus states were Germanic, and Everyone Immediately Disliked That. So naturally I couldn't resist joking about the inverse scenario. Because we have substantially less written records of our histories than the Western countries, we tend to speculate wildly and people can get extremely attached to those speculations.
@jannafrancis7452 Not really per se. For starters, your question should more specific, but I'll do my best to answer. The Rus were a collection of slavs that migrated to the north and east and settled in what is today parts of Poland, Russia, Moldova, Slovakia, and Ukraine though at the time they were a collection of tribes who governed themselves as such. Other Slavic tribes migrated west or or south. Fast forward a bit and a swedish viking by the name of Rurik travels to Constantinople and serves as a member of the Varangian Guard for the Byzantine Emperor, a position that rewarded him in prestige, military and cultural experience and large amounts of gold as the varangians were still technically mercenaries despite also serving as the city guard of Constantinople abd the emperor's personal bodyguards. Also it is rumored, though I've yet to verify how true it is, that he was a descendant of Ragnar lothbrok , though that could just be folklore. Anyway he eventually retired from military service and settled in the Novgorod region with his family where the Russians made him grand prince and this the Ruriked dynasty was formed which ruled the Rus, and later built the city of Kiev among others and converting to Orthodox Christianity.
49 minutes of Norse music theory by a Persian who, we can only assume, is on his 3rd shot of whiskey, 5th pack of smokes and is on his last strand of sanity. All jokes aside Farya, continue what you do best,: entertaining me with sweet Epic Roman and Byzantine music to work out to. your current release Belisarius really gets the blood pumping when lifting weights.
Canadian man from the stone reliefs of Persepolis disproves the presence of throat singing in Norse music while quoting Pope Scarlett and playing Bollywood music.
I'm from Denmark myself and often to go to historical viking markets and musems, and 80% of people (specifically at the actual museums), actually seem to know what they are talking about, yet there are always some people wearing very inacurate clothes and jewelry (the vikings/norse did not even have earrings, actually), and some like to pretend that music like Wardruna, Heilung, ect (whom i love don't get me wrong), were what we actually sounded like during the viking age. It cant help but make me a bit sad. One hand, i do believe the type of music vikings bands make are perfectly fine, especially those who use what we consider to be more "nordic tones" and actual nordic/viking intruments, and i believe that while such may not have existed in the actual viking age, it can still be more of a sub-genre to something like "modern-day viking music" or "viking-inspired music" As long as they don't pretend it isnt But on the other, i quite love the more historically accurate music people make, based on the most evidence of what we know their music sounded like. Especially considering we know some of their instrument. And im sad i never hear of our beautiful vocal-singing traditions, that we have had for generations. The swedes like to say kulning is a "swedish-only" kind of singing, but it seems like if we go back to the middles ages/the viking age, this seemed incredibly common? I wish we heard more of this type of music, because its beautiful and seems to be the most accurate in terms of oral tradition of the vikings. Yet we never hear anything about it. A singer from the farose islands called Eivor has songs where a lot of them is just type of howl-ish type of singing (perhaps a bit modernized to sound as good as possible), but if we sounded anything like that, i would MUCH rather hear about that, than about throat singing, despite the fact i still love what we have done with it in modern norse music
There's some research currently being done from Finnish early 20th century archives for herding calls and their sound, somewhat similar to Swedish archival kulning (that is very different from modern art music kulning)! It's very interesting and kind of reminds me of some of the polish and baltic open-voiced singing styles 😊
@@jasminv8653Those open-voiced styles sound alot like alpine yodeling, which in turn has ties to kulning, in that it was also used by shepherds to project their voice far and communicate over long distances. Probably my favorite traditional swiss instrument, the Alphorn, was used in the same way. I grew up at a lake between two mountain ranges, and when someone in the town at the other side of the lake played an alphorn, it was literally audible in the whole valley, as in a 5-10km radius! Absolutely ethereal. As for yodeling, much of it I don't personally like, but I know it's an extremely difficult technique to master. And the slower chants together with an alphorn do something for me. It sounds like home. I just got to that part in the video where he mentions yodeling, which I think is hilarious because in my eyes, yodeling vikings seem ethnographically and geographically MUCH more likely than throat-singing vikings.
Hey Farya. I am from Kazakhstan, and the other side of my family are Ethnic altais living in siberia. As you know, throat singing is an integral part of our culture as it is a way for us to imitate the beautiful sounds of nature all around us. I believe many cultures have many intrinsic and unique characteristics, and for me as a Turk, throat singing was that for me. that being said i appreciate you covering a topic like this. Keep making these videos, they are very interesting and you are very good at presenting these ideas!
Where did this myth come from? Im born and raised in rural Norway and have never heard anything about throat singing in Norway. We have other interesting singing techniques like kauking/laling, but not throat singing
Thank you for mentionning them, I really wish more people knew about these special vocal styles in Scandinavia. Scandinavia has such a rich musical tradition of its own and it’s unfortunately overlooked in favour of completely unrelated musical practices
"Scientific methodology doesn't work in a way where you can just cherry pick which culture you like and just put it to that culture". THANK YOU! ❤ I am so fed up with people pressing all kinds of culture expressions on the Vikings. Best regards and again thank you from a Swedish Old Norse religion scholar, one that is very very tired of explaining to people that you can't just press Freya or Odin in with a crowbar everywhere you feel like it. Also, thank you so much for a really extraordinary good channel. Historical music is one of my side interests and it is hard to find good sources out here where you can actually listen to suggestions on how it might have sounded.
Happy to see shout-outs to two of my YT faves, the Welsh Viking and Batzorig! Funny how, as you say, perceptions of the Norse and the Anglo-Saxons are so different. When you look at their stuff they're pretty damn similar. My Swedish friend, upon seeing some Old English, said "Oh! It's just really messed up Swedish" :)
I'm Norwegian, I've never heard anything in our folk music that bares even the slightest hint of resemblance to overtone throat singing. But I also have no idea what this humming could be, the description is too vague lol, if it was just normal humming it wouldn't be described as sounding worse than a dog barking. I hope some other source pops up somewhere that provides a better description, but I doubt one ever will. It's a bit frustrating that the throat singing myth is completely overshadowing the cool stuff that we do have. Like the kulokk/kulning, laling, and stuff. Which is stuff I think the vikings were 100 times more likely to have, because at least we have evidence of that stuff being present in Scandinavia lol. I wish I could travel back in time and force the man to give a longer description.
As a musicologist who is currently finishing a paper on Vikingset-Soundtrack-Aesthetics, arguing that soundaesthetics and their association should be merely seen through the lens of a non-puristic Folk-Revival, where historical artefacts and findings are merely part of a playground than a stage for historical accurate reconstructions I would like to thank you for your time, effort, patience and work on that topic (and as far as I can tell with a glance on your further videos I realize that I'm going to spend some - like... a lot of - time here). 👏👏👏
I love your take! I do enjoy the subtle concession you give that there's nothing particularly wrong that bands like Heilung employ throat singing to build on their aesthetic, it works and people enjoy it, I for one eat it up, but I acknowledge it's not historical and there's nothing wrong with that, as they themselves say they're not recreating historically accurate viking age music, they're taking what little we know about it and applying modern ideas to it to create something new and beautiful
I love "viking" songs but for me theyre more of the fantasy kind of viking, not the real vikings. I am currently working on a viking settlement thesis atm, and alot of the problems I struggle with are dealing with my own modern bias and ideas about Iron Age in general (In norwegian academia, viking age is considered to be in the Late Iron Age, and not in Middle-Ages). My sources usually are good in being critical towards theyre own texts. which is good. Problem with internet is that comments, such as those you showed, doesnt seem to rly have critical thinking of its own content. Its always important to ask whether or not the question one may have can be answered. I am also a bit critical to the modern view on viking terminology, but i do not have any basis or data enough to come with harsh criticisms. This is one thing i hate about certain yt comments: people just attack you for no reason and dont even have a well read or sometimes not even well written sources. It feels like they just want to argue with you to make you feel bad. Good video as always Farya, i tend to avoid discussions about viking age in general when i am not studying archaeology or not being with my classmates.
@@elmarm.5224 400 million years ago, our ancestors were fish, which means that Sardinians, Vikings, Mongols, Finns and Koreans are related because they're all fish.
I love this man and his extremely detailed comments and addendums. Watching his videos is like if the people that write essays in comments on random videos decided to actually be useful and make videos, without the bird shit brain phenomenon. I love it. Also, a lot of TH-cam content on history, culture, and languages is generally very surface level and overdone and oversaturated. Basically to the effect of reading a Wikipedia article, writing a script l, slapping a crude animation and calling it a day. Farya’s content is one of the needles in the haystack where I am continuously surprised and delighted to actually be learning and hearing about something for the first time. He delves into our pop culture subconscious in ways your IG infographic types or Twitter threads never could. Also, writing my own comment essay for this felt divinely inspired. Farya is doing gods work and I’m thrilled to see the progression of this channel’s growth.
Swedish folkmusik nerd here🥰(apologize in advance for bad english spelling). If there were any troughtsinging in our culture in the viking age I can see no traces of it to day. Sami jojk is very old but still around(NOT trought singing). We have a very old singing technic called ”kulning” though, it was used as a working tool during summer to call home cows ,check that out👍
Man I love this video. I am just fed up with people bringing pop-culture into academic discussions. Good that at least someone is standing up for the truth. Nothing as dangerous as people bending history to their preference and will. Thanks man, keep up the great work.
In case anyone ever thought paleontology was the only scientific field facing passionate resistance from meatheads on the grounds that pop culture fantasies are "cooler" and therefore more deserving of being real And even that's not a perfect comparison, at least the Jurassic Park version of this phenomenon was based (in part) on actual outdated hypotheses, this whole Viking Throat Singing™ business emerged whole cloth from pop culture, no scientific method required Time to wildly speculate about which field's getting hit next!
By "it sounded like dogs barking", what we can take from that is that they were clearly referencing the sharp hardcore vocals of Jacob Bannon, and therefore all viking music should sound as much like Converge as possible
It's also important to note that the Norse-descended people Ibn Cadlan met didn't live in Scandinavia and may have had very different music from those who did.
These videos are things I've been searching for for a while! I study comparative literature (literature's version of ethnomusicology) and have always wanted to understand global music outside the stereotypes of Hollywood or other popular media. Thank you!
Oh gods, thank you for this Video, Farya. As an archaeologist the massive fantastical romanticisation certain people try to manifest as “truth” concerning eras and peoples in history is at times utterly maddening.
You know the funny thing is I had never heard of a throat singing viking trope until you started making videos on it,thanks for safeguarding me from taking it seriously in the future I suppose
This type of thinking, "Just because there's no evidence doesn't mean that it didn't exist" is incredibly pervasive, not just in history and musicology but also in other fields, most notably creationism in science. I could probably sit down for a day or two and watch Professor Dave, Gutsick Gibbon, Genetically Modified Skeptic, and a bunch of other channels tear into these creationist and ID arguments, which frequently cite, "just because there's no evidence doesn't mean that it didn't exist."
As a Swede watching this video, this was honestly the first time I've come into contact with the idea that throat singing was meant to be something we did back in the day. There's thankfully no such mythical undercurrents in our lessons on history and the likes when we grow up, and the music is generally known to have been, well, rather unknown, with a few surviving instruments and records to figure it out from. It sounds a lot like the anger at your previous video might come from those who have built a connection with the "vikings" out of pop culture depictions and Ancestry tests or similar, who are very much angry that what has felt very real to them was instead a fabrication to sell something to them. Excellent video.
(A satirical take!) You know, my Indian father taught me the breathing techniques for meditation one of which resembles very much Central Asian throat singing. Also, Balochi tribes have this kind of singing techniques. So, it should be of Indo-Iranian origin. What if the Turkic and Mongolic people adopted throat singing from the Iranian peoples (the Sakas/Scythes) who lived before the Turkic peoples in Central Asia?? What if it came through Buddhism??? (This is why the Tibetans have it!) What, if it was something originally Indo-European surviving in pockets in Iran, India, Scandinavia and in other cultures contacting the AncIneNT IndoUeroapans!!!!??? It can't be excluded! What, if T-Rex had throat singing? It sounded very guttural in the movies, there is no evidence against it, yes! (Reminding, it's really just a bad joke😅)
I love this take, all good things undoubtedly came from the Aryavartha obviously. On your comment on Tyrannosaurid throat singing, here are some reconstructed sounds of what it might have sounded like based on birds and crocodiles th-cam.com/video/SpO_ov2iWyI/w-d-xo.html Parasaurolophus is a whole different story, sounds like a celtic carnyx
I think you present a fair argument. As a fan of Wardruna, I've never felt they were trying to be historically accurate, but just carry a Viking theme, like Amon Amarth, but more Neo-folk and less metal. And my impression of Neo-Folk is that it's a modern take on traditional & folk music, therefore, not historically accurate, but take in other sounds and ideas that complement it for something more original & creative that invokes certain feelings and throatsinging definitely complements it. There's just a difference between 'fantasy' Vikings and 'historical' vikings. Because Vikings definitely have captured people's imaginations and what has come out of it is undoubtably cool but we don't have to pretend it's reality to be able to love it. And heck, Viking fantasy is what led me to learn more about real vikings. And you're absolutely right about paganism. It's so broad you might as well just say 'religion'. I get some beliefs have acquired the word 'paganism' in them, like Norse Pagans. But we never say 'Mongolic Pagans' although they would have been called pagans by the horribly broad defintion, but we have a name for the religious beliefs there and that's 'Tengrism'. Sure there are paralells, such as them both containing shamanism, but 'shamanism' is also a broad term. And Tengrism isn't exclusive to Mongolic people either, like non-Mongolic Siberians. But why the need to appropriate the practices and beliefs of other cultures into a history that didn't happen when you can appreciate the practices & beliefs of those cultures? I have a love and deep interest in Mongolia, Tuva and many parts of central Asia, but I also love Vikings. I am learning khoomei, kargyraa and sygyt, but the songs I am learning/will be learning are Tuvan and Mongolian in nature (I want to learn both styles, but am starting with Tuvan). And these sounds go quite well with other genres of music too, like the blues as Paul Pena did, with rock like Yat Kha & The Hu, with country like Soriah did with a Tuvan band covering Ghost Riders in the Sky, with game scores like Alash did with Austin Wintory for The Pathless, with metal like Uuhai and Tenger Cavalry and so on. With all that said, out of all your points, I'd like to say...the Iliad in kargyraa would be pretty badass. And I think we should add yodelling to Amon Amarth songs.
About the " dog barking" In Greece a part of the pop music is called " skyladika" literally dog songs with the night clubs playing that music also nicknamed skyladika - dog clubs Just imagine future musicians trying to reconstruct a mixture of gypsy, oriental and western music Based on the " dog" part 😂😂😂 Now I want to hear " pantremeni ki dio" ( married both of us) in throat singing style Because MAKIS is the ultimate " dog" 😂😂😂
I doubt it, but it’s an interesting idea. Like if someone saw a street performer somewhere and then wrote “These people have an amazing tradition of juggling knifes, practiced by even the lowliest of the urban plebes.”
44:42 I was going to make a comment disagreeing with the opening about horned helmets but decided not to since people are for some reason _very_ passionate about Viking age horned helmets being 'debunked', so it was a nice surprise to see this note near the end. Thanks for accurately reporting reality. There actually _exists_ evidence suggesting that the Norse in the Viking age _might_ have had horned helmets: as you mention, there are horned helmets from the area and they're depicted in tapestries, but there's no evidence of the Norse having throat-singing ancestors or neighbours.
Man, this is a reality I would rather remain in ignorance about, but now that the veil has been lifted, I'm at least glad someone as qualified as you took the time and effort to fight the madness with reason and wit. As a norwegian musician with an interest in a range of cultural / historical musical expressions, from Bach-style counterpoint on the organ to melodic jaw harp playing and pure overtone singing, I've never once heard throat singing and vikings mentioned in the same sentence, and it doesn't make sense to me why so many people can't just appreciate a musical style for what it is without having to root it firmly in their ancestry! I would never expect this misconception to exist in the first place, not to mention being as widespread as it is. After watching these videos though, I definitely share the concern about popculture and the internet warping the collective understanding of the past.
I love how you not only debunks the arguments and myths as you give us context and insight of how the scientific method works. It is a difficult thing to be concise, didactic and pleasant to be heard like you are. You're a great communicator with several Britney Spears references.
Now I lowkey wanna hear Roman music with Sardinian Canto. At least with joddeling it is within the Germanic sphere. Couldn't decide whether that argument was purely a strawman or not. Though I have no idea when joddeling even appears and it probably, like many forms of folk music, isn't attested earlier than the Romantic period. The thing about that is that people like to take the oldest attested example of something and project it indefinitely into the past. Like if our timeframe is 200 and we know from the earliest attestation of something it changed a lot, why would we assume it did never change in the 1000 years prior? Why would we assume the oldest known of something is automatically the oldest something of something. Also surprised you didn't mention joik. Though you did mention in in another video and frankly it still sounds rather distinct from the stuff that Wardruna and co present to us. Great video
I’m legit working on an Epic Roman music with a Sardinian theme with cantu hahaha. But yeah when it comes to yodelling, I don’t think it’s a strawman, in fact it’s exactly the same as the throat singing counter-argument: you pluck out one unusual vocal technique out of the infinity of “not impossible” and retroactively decide to apply it to the Norse without any particular reason to do so in the first place. And as you said, yodelling at least has some geographical proximity and is known in the Germanic sphere, so at that point, my yodelling argument might even be too generous compared to overtone throat singing. And absolutely, the chronological thing also applies. People love to use Sardinia as an argument for the Norse having throat singing, but Sardinian cantu a tenore existing today isn’t proof that it existed 1000 years ago, so it’s not even an argument for Medieval Sardinia, let alone Medieval Scandinavia. I think when it comes to throat singing, there’s such an association with “primal/nature/spiritual” in people’s minds that everyone assumes it must be as old as the neolithic, but there’s no reason to think that. Maybe it’s 600 years, or 300 years old for all we know.
I'm a huge Heilung fan, but I never thought of the throat singing as being organic to the Nordic/Germanic context of their music. I thought of it (and still do) as an effective addition to it. Some of their first songs include modern English, which certainly wasn't around in those days - but it worked with the art they're making. Art is an interpretation, not necessarily historical. I do think the throat singing fits well, even if it wasn't a thing way back when, as the nature of what Heilung has developed has much to do with sound/vibration conveying energy. People invest a lot of emotion into what they want to be true, and it becomes a matter of "winning" the argument rather than landing on objective truth. It's a sign of their continuing need for growth which, if acknowledged, will happen naturally with time. Thus, I try not to get too wound up about it. It is frustrating, in the moment, for sure - but age has taught me that I can look backwards at any time and marvel at the ignorance I thought I had surely gotten past. Life is learning and those who know the least, know it the loudest. Sometimes it takes embarrassing ourselves to figure that out.
People want to blame Abrahamic religions for a lot of problems today, because "paganism" is the counter-culture, it's shown as cool and punk in pop culture. It's shown as the side that protects nature and embodies values in general that are better for society. "Paganism" doesn't exist, like you said, if the definition is anything opposed to Abrahamic religions and the status quo. 99% of human beliefs have been "pagan", like you said. Surely, these beliefs can't all be the same. It's a great disrespect to the people who believe or have believed in them. They should go ask a Shinto believer, or a Hindu, if they're pagan. I haven't seen popular media depict "pagan" rites in a respectful accurate manner. They always go for the "wow violent and bloody and sexy" factor, which is such a shame. Imagine if most depictions of the Eucharist was about a sexy woman pouring wine over her chest. Even HBO Rome is guilty of this.
I’m going to venture that if Scandinavians practiced throat singing, it would have survived the Christianization of the region and been practiced into the medieval period, in church, not unlike the use of runes.
Great point, alot of people love to say that the Church eradicated throat singing because it would have been their pagan practice, but then the same people point to Sardinia having throat singing as being proof of an ancient pan-European throat singing practice that existed in Scandinavia too. But Sardinia is super Catholic and they sing religious songs with throat singing, so clearly it’s not a given that Christianisation necessarily kills throat singing
As a guy who writes historical themed music I do a bit of throat singing cuz it sounds cool, I used a viola and play two strings at the same time as it sounds so good. I have written music that could be more “accurate” but it can’t be, as if it was truly accurate you’d be listening to it live, in person and we’d be living in those times… so yeah. To get the closes sound I can I look to what instruments where found in those cultures and then I add sounds that are “modern” to ironically give it the aesthetics of the past. But acts like this have sadly caused and are caused by people hearing it and not knowing this is inaccurate. Anyway thank you for reading my comment, I apologise if it makes no scenes outside of my head, hope you have a good day! P.S. Farya is very attractive and no one can change my mind!
There's a lot of "my ancestors did that too" rewriting of history for the purpose of cultural appropriation. When... It's perfectly okay to just borrow things and admit to borrowing it. Like modern math. (Thanks Arabs and Indians, among others) But hey I'm clicking on a video i already agree with by a TH-camr I'm already subscribed to.
Thanks for bringing this up, because cultural appropriation is a real thing to consider with this issue. Heilung and similar bands have every right to use singing techniques from other cultures; this isn’t cultural appropriation since they’ve always credited said cultures. But when a major chunk of the audience genuinely believes that throat singing is literally part of the cultural heritage of Scandinavia, and start angrily claiming it as an established part of that region’s cultural legacy, that is the literal, textbook definition of cultural appropriation.
Well, said Farya! I love your music videos, including this one. As someone who is part ethnically Scandinavian, I actually completely agree regarding how Germanic tribes didn’t really have throat singing. I honestly don’t think about it as a Greek, Roman, Germanic or Celtic thing TBH. I always thought of it as mostly a Turkic, Siberian, and Mongolian thing or perhaps even common amongst various northern Native American tribes. I don't even get why it's such a big deal to people anyway. Lmao. Throat singers or not, all of those aforementioned ethnicities had baller music. Who cares?
they growled the names of their gods or leaders into their shields until it became a yelling..... Try throat singing "Donar! Donar! Donar!" or in case of the late roman army "Herakles! Herakles! Herakles!" I would like to see them try that.
Love seeing you dismantle stuff like this. Sad that people feel the need to get so up in arms about something so needless, though. There are so many more interesting things to do with one’s time than insist almost dogmatically that the Norse had overtone throat singing. I really hope you get some more positive feedback on this video; after all the trouble this has put you to, I think it might make things a little better.
Funny enough, the yodeling from the alps, might be more "legit" than throath singing, since it came about from cattle calling (from wikipedia) which is kinda simmilar in someways to the scandinavian Kulning/Lalning, which is likewise a herding call which have kinda evolved into music. From a scandinavian perspective, i am danish myself. I find the idea of throat singing quite funny, since i have only heard it on youtube and never in real life and never really seemed traditional "scandinavian" to me. It is shame because there some quite good scandianvian folk songs. like: Eli Storbekken - Laling (norwegian folkmusic) Harald Foss - Rolandskvadet (Norwegian folk song) Erik Harbo - Ramund (Danish medieval ballad) Dråm - Kringellek (nordic bagpipe + harp) Emma Björling - Herr Hillebrand Sten Lerche - Roselil' og hendes moder (Danish) Kata - Grímur á Miðalnesi (Faroese folk song) Tiriltunga - Aksel og Valborgs vise Agnete og Havmannen (Norwegian folk song) Kristín Á. Ólafsdóttir - Krummavísur (Icelandic folk song)
Glad that you added that note at the end, the whole conclusion I was thinking "which is more reasonable? Norse throat-singing because one comparison to dogs with no cultures they had ties with doing so; or Norse horned helmets like their region provably HAD?
In my ears, throat singing also sounds absolutely not canine in any way. For real I find it hard to imagine which animal sounds like this. The closest thing throat singing is comparable to are electronic acid basslines, but I humbly assume that the Vikings did not have these, and the steppe people that are known for their throat singing had neither for most of the time.
Now I'm waiting for the next piece of epic Roman music to include some Khoomei throat singing. Maybe just as a little detail in the background. The first of April isn't far away.
i put this in the "trust me, i can have dreads! it's not appropriation! the vikings had dreads, because this one text said something about braids, braids are dreads, trust me!" section.
The virgin "I can have dreads because this ancient culture that I distantly descend from had dreads." vs. the Chad "I can have dreads because I can grow and maintain dreads and I like how they look on me."
I like the idea of viking throat singing, but yeah, that idea 100% comes from listening to Heilung. Never even entered my mind before. I don't know why people can't just enjoy the music for what it is instead of getting weird about it. Heilung never made any claims about historical accuracy to my knowledge. I love your presentation style and wit. Going to check out your other content.
From hobby music point of view, I love this, thank you; from nordic cultural history studies point of view, I love this, thank you; from nordic living history re-enactment point of view, I love this, thank you; from folk metal fan perspective, I love this, thank you. Intellectual dishonesty is so widespread online, and especially surrounding whenever northern europe pops up, and it has me pulling my hair so so often. I'm so glad you've made videos on this among all of your other interesting topics. Thank you 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
I’ve been waiting for this one lol throat singing immediately takes me out of Viking themed music. Honestly I don’t hear Wardruna doing it very often, but even the low growling that comes up sometimes, usually as background, just feels out of place.
This theoat singing is part of a mich more complex structure living from these clichés and assumptions. Especially merch serllers, musicians and item sellers.
Bretons had throatsinging. Genghis khan was a breton, his real name was Gwen-yannis C'han. You don't have the proof of what I'm saying is fake so now you have to considerate my hypothesis. Did I do it right ?
I have been really enjoying these videos. I converted from Norse Paganism 11 years ago. This kind of stuff is what I have been trying to tell people for all these years... but no one would believe me. So, thanks Farya!
“Well you can’t prove they DIDNT have throat singing “ implying that someone from that time period would go out of their way to write an official document saying “no throat singing here!” For some reason.
My only question is what is your hair routine? I have curly hair too and I grew it out long, but have recently cut it since I couldn't get it to look right. I'm wanting to grow it back out.
Your comment about things being very centered around Abrahamic religions is very true, it is something I think about a lot. In cultures that are centered around Christianity, those who move away from that tend to end up seeing Christianity as the enemy, as some kind of ultimate villain we are working against, as something that completely ruined the world, but then ironically their faith becomes unintentionally very centered around it regardless. Even if negatively, it is some sort of massive driving force around their faith, and it becomes Christianity versus everything else, simultaneously overestimating the religion that they want to separate from and underestimating the new one (in terms of it being new to them) they want to be a part of. My husband is Hindu, and has been Hindu his entire life as is his family, and I was raised Baptist, later became Atheist, and I have now been Hindu since I met my husband. In my own culture, those that are becoming something separate from Christianity will find that their newfound community will tend to be very focused on Christianity and the harm it causes and how your newfound beliefs are to counter act that and perpetually fight against it. However, when I asked my husband's uncle about Christianity, he said it just exists, he doesn't think about it, his beliefs have nothing to do with it. It is not a threat to him or something he works against, our beliefs are not to counter act it, it is just there and has nothing to do with us. After he said that it very much changed my perspective of things and made me think a lot about how many people, unintentionally or not, tend to chalk up other religions, even their own, into being just "not Christianity", which is ironically exactly what the people they are trying to fight against were doing. There is much more to Paganism than that it is "not Christian" and if we understand how different Mormons and Catholics are, then there is no reason we should ever think that Mongolian and Norwegian paganism were the exact same, and it also takes away from the significance of your own worship to only see your beliefs as something to oppose Christianity. I am very grateful to worship alongside my husband's family, and to have such beautiful insights into Hinduism that they provide me each day.
My historical sources say that the Vikings actually invented punk rock and it sounded like the band GBH. So I could see how historians hated it. I know this is true because I hear it with my own ears and a guy told me a friend of his said so.
I loved the use of natural light and the way it changes throughout the video honestly that was a really cool atmospheric touch. Fantastic rant, would watch again.
I also hate the classification of "paganism" as if everything that falls there are the same or related. I always love mythologies and religions for their own uniqueness and don't like to lump them all together just because they aren't christian or abrahamic.
In the process of trying to force vikings to have had throat singing, people have neglected actual norse singing styles, that are cool in their own way, which the vikings could have had, like kulning.
Something these people who claim these things never point out is ...the nature of their language. The language itself I imagine also played a role in these ancient descriptions, maybe the singing wasn't even bad or growling or throat singing or whatever, just maybe the singing in their language sounded harsher. People from the south describe these languages even to this day as harsh, I don't agree personally, I am Greek and I am familiar with a bunch of Nordic and Germanic languages and I don't find them any more brutish, but many people around me when listening Norwegian or German do really think of these languages as harsh and brutish and the phrase they are barking is one I have heard many times to describe them actually. Also, are we sure that the "like a dog, but more bestial" doesn't mean howling? Throat singing doesn't sound like any sound dogs do, even if the phrase was more actual than we give it credit, but dogs and wolves also howl and it can be much more ominous and primal than just barking. If someone hadn't heard Kulning or a very strong head voice before, these sounds do resemble howling and it is possible that Kulning might have served to scare away predators as well, bc it was used (and if I am not wrong is still used) in some areas to gather livestock, like in the Balkans and the Middle East etc we whistle with our fingers to gather them. It is crazy to me that these phrases are even discussed that much because at first glance, even if not a musicologist, look like very flimsy "throat singing evidence" to me. And something last, because the "logic" they apply to this really blows my mind, why do they think that they had never heard throat singing before? Especially the Romans! If they had never heard something similar looks like a very peculiar thing to not point out more than once and that vaguely, but the thing is that even the idea that Romans had never heard throat singing ever before is very difficult to accept, because Sardinia. If they had heard Sardinians throat singing, then why not say "Oh, they're singing similar to them", bc it is not a common style of singing if you hear it in one place and then once again in another, you will point it out most likely. Anyway, I am stopping the essay here, love your epic talking videos!
The little tinkling pinao piece the comes in at 12:15 is the same piece of music my video production teacher gave us to score our silent film projects.
The problem with commenters using the 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence' argument is that it effectively makes their hypothesis: "At least one Nordic person at some point in history attempted throat singing" which is probably true, but essentially meaningless. I don't really think ancient Greek throat singing is that crazy. They had lots of contact with other cultures. At least one of them at some point has to have tried it. But it definitely doesn't mean that throat singing was part of the Greek musical canon. Same thing for the Norse.
nowadays it is almost like the historical or semi historcal channels are fully aware and interactive with each other which seems really nice for example l have seen history with cy comment in your videos kings and generals commenting on his etc its like the start of a fully fledged historical communtiy on all categories interacting with each other
Internet discussions have a 25% chance of being a educational and learning discussion, while there is a 75% chance of degrading into a incoherent as shouting match of ideas clouded by personal judgment on a subject. Its always best to find a channel, like Farya's, where one can see and possible have a well rounded discussion, or learn something from Farya himself. Though I must say I'm still waiting patiently for a Augustus song or symphony.
There are plenty of Bronze Age helmets with horns. That's likely where the Victorians got the idea for Medieval horned helmets. Branding something as "ceremonial" can also be a mistake. Just because a modern thinks something wouldn't work or isn't technologically sound doesn't mean it wasn't used by people in the past.
I'm sure there were some horned helmets floating around in the North Sea during the Bronze Age, but they were likely being worn by Moloch worshipping Phoenicians.
Great video! I can see three vectors that account for so many people believing this idea of throat singing in Norse culture. These are arrived at through very, very rudimentary logic with holes you could drive a bus through, so criticism is more than valid. The first is massive historical and cultural compression. The Vikings went to Russia (big Normanist alarm siren), so representations of early Rus in popular culture are heavily accented by Norse but not exclusively depicted as Norse. There is usually some amalgamation of Norse, Byzantine and Mongol tropes, fashions and music. By collapsing elements that are separated by hundreds of years this early Rus ended up being Vikings, with cavalry, brocade and throat-singing. Then this (last part at least) is read backwards as a part of the "Viking" culture. Second, pop-culture's repetition of the trope tends to consolidate it in the mind, the bandwagoning that you mentioned. Finally, it's pretty simple othering. People want to see the Norse as special and different, so they cannot do things the way we do/did them. Following this they have attributed the analogues of difference in our modern world (from a Western perspective), hence the throat-singing as it is seen as at a remove from Western culture. The whole thing stinks to me of the same revisionism of old Celtic religion and culture.
The whole thing about "They were pagans, therefore throat singing" make me think about the old evolutionist approach to ethnology (largely abandoned by now) that stated that all civilizations had to follow the exact same steps in their history before being trully civilised. It usually was a three steps process (primitive => barbarian => civilized) with obviously the last step conveniently being the Western social norm most often than not, with stuff like religion going animism => polytheism => monotheism and marriage being "horde" (basically everyone can do stuff with everyone) => polygamy => monogamy. This idea of a uniform process that every culture has to go through seems to still be quite popular nowadays.
I love your videos and whole-heartedly agree with the points you make in this one. I try to avoid discussing with people for exactly that reason, the way how they "argue". Glad and sad at the same time, that I'm not alone dealing this phenomenon, that appears to becoming more and more mainstream. Keep up the good work
i never thought i would have watched a 49 minute video about the singing practices of some people 1200 years ago but you managed to pull me in anyway P.S. the conclusion at the end really exposed the prevalence of pseudo-scientism today, great video as always Farya
There are some cultures that are _geographically_ close that do have throat singing, but they are notably separate to the point of being isolated from Norse culture. It seems unlikely that that would be the only thing to make the cultural jump. To me it sounds more like a description of vocal fry, but what do I know?
Thank you for your videos and your comprehensive explanations! They are very informative and helpful and much food for thought! To add my two cents to the pool of voices in the comments: I'm an archaeologist and started my studies back in 2010. Bach then, one year after Wardruna's Gap Var Ginnunga came out, there was no talk of throat singing or overtone singing in a Viking context whatsoever. Plus the band was still fairly unknown. There also was no "Vikings" (as in the series) yet, so anyone who would have suggested locks or mohawk hairstyles for vikings would have been doubted a lot. Because there is no evidence for that (as amazing as the aesthetics and sounds may be, there is no basis in history. Linked is a video about Viking age hair. th-cam.com/video/LCnacDWAOFc/w-d-xo.html ) I can even still remember the lesson when we looked at the primary source you mentioned, about "singing like barking dogs" (the translation was a bit different, since it was a more recent German translation from the original, not the old one from the 1920s.) And our professor literally stared laughing how openly Ibn Yaqub made fun of Viking music that way. Of course one COULD very hypothetically start an interpretation of a singing style based on this one phrase. But since the object of this statement was not a neutral report, any theory would be nothing more than highly conjectural. Now 13 years later, suddenly throat singing is THE trend in Viking/Pagen/Norse music. And almost every single Viking reenactor wears their hair like Ragnar or Lagertha. But that doesn't make it historical. It shows more of our Zeitgeist, our networking and especially the massive influence a few films, shows, or bands can have on public opinion and "knowledge" about history. I myself love the music, and can appreciate it as an aesthetic choice. But it is (sadly for some) only a fantastical one, not a sudden historical revelation unearthed by these bands/showrunners/etcs. (If the misrepresenation of viking age northern europeans and their culture is a subject you're interested in, I can highly recommend @theWelshViking. You two teaming up would be very cool and informative. His take on "Horned Helmets" th-cam.com/video/dVhAF8JDAL4/w-d-xo.html)
My current research lies in Latin literature from the 16th century, and I’ve just recently read a guy (who had been to Ottoman Constantinople himself!) who states that _“even Fauns are able to sing more beautifully [than the Turks]”._ I’m not even kidding. So, there’s the proof: Ottoman court music, which even some Sultans composed, used throat singing! 😱
THE EARLIER VIDEO I MADE CITED HERE CAN BE SEEN HERE:
th-cam.com/video/gr9586Dlq4E/w-d-xo.html
discount 1000 B.C babylonian looking bloke says words.png
In this video, I want to take a complete look at the myth of the Norse having overtone throat singing, and deconstruct this myth with a critical ethnomusicological lens. The point of the video is to show that insufficient understanding of basic ethnomusicological realities in pop-culture has allowed for the dissemination of this myth with no basis in any kind of evidence, or more importantly, logic. Rather than just being a debunking of the myth, it is more importantly an example in critical thinking and how to approach ethnomusicological questions with a proper scientific approach. And some Britney Spears thrown into the mix because your boy lowkey loves Britney Spears and Womanizer is better than any music I’ve ever made.
Sources:
Throat singing in Old Norse culture? by Nóel Braucher *
www.academia.edu/22666429/Throat_Singing_in_Old_Norse_Culture
*I have to add a massive addendum to this source. Braucher's academic specialisation is in Icelandic Language and Literature, not any form of musicology, and their paper shows. The first part of the paper brilliantly shows their background in literature and how they expertly delve into the sources and the evolving translations, but the second part of the paper is a very weak attempt at coming up with arguments to support the idea of the Norse having throat singing, and Braucher ends the paper with the statement that the notion has strong indications and evidence behind it, although they manage to show no such indication or evidence.
Because I know some of the dissenters will object to my statement that "no musicologist supports the idea of the Norse having throat singing as a likely possibility," by pointing out that this source does that, let me clarify that Braucher isn't a musicologist. They're a specialist of language and literature, and that makes them as qualified to tackle ethnomusicological questions as a Norse weapons expert can tackle Norse ship-building, which is not at all. Braucher's arguments to support throat singing are extremely weak and show a lack of a solid grasp of ethnomusicology; arguments like "throat singing is connected to the circumpolar peoples," and they also mention the Inuits. This is a classic misconception that no ethnomusicologists would make; throat singing has no intrinsic connection to circumpolar peoples; the Inuits have nothing remotely similar to the overtone throat singing discussed here, and Sardinians and South Africans also have throat singing.
Point is, whilst Braucher is obviously qualified to tackle literature, they were not, at the point of writing this paper, qualified to tackle ethnomusicological questions, and the weakness of the arguments in the second part of the paper shows. The most blaring problem with the paper is its very premise: starting from the conclusion of throat singing and working their way backwards. Had they presented their paper in a music history or ethnomusicology program, the paper would have been rejected at the very start on the basis that it should have been structured as "What could Ibn Yaqub's passage mean?", which is the proper scientific way to go about it, rather than asking "Does Ibn Yaqbu's passage mean throat singing?" which is a pop-culturally influenced, extremely biased premise that brings in the external factor of modern pop-culture into the historical records, using it as the premise from which to build the argumentation to begin with, which is antithetical to the scientific method in music history. So keep in mind that whilst the paper is a great resource when it comes to the literature in question, it is also a prime example of poorly informed ethnomusicological argumentation that I'm criticising in this video.
"What did they sound like? Reconstructing the music of the Viking Age by Chihiro Larissa Tsukamoto"
www.academia.edu/31493503/What_did_they_sound_like_Reconstructing_the_music_of_the_Viking_Age
"People and Their Soundscape in Viking-Age Scandinavia Critical Reflections in a Music-Archaeological Perspective" by Cajsa S. Lund
www.academia.edu/31773185/Cajsa_S_Lund_People_and_Their_Soundscape_in_Viking_Age_Scandinavia_Critical_Reflections_in_a_Music_Archaeological_Perspective_Studien_zur_Musikarch%C3%A4ologie_VII
Tacitus's Germania, link 1:
www.gutenberg.org/files/7524/7524-h/7524-h.htm
Tacitus's Germania, link 2:
www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0083%3Achapter%3D3
00:00 Intro
03:21 The “barking dogs” account
07:57 Tacitus’ Germanic tribes account
09:52 The poor quality of Internet discussions
21:54 “We can assume they had throat singing because they were pagans”
25:48 “Throat singing is found all over the world”
29:26 Anything that isn’t impossible isn’t automatically a serious hypothesis
36:51 A fundamental hypocrisy
42:46 Manipulative language
46:50 Conclusion
Metalheads of the early medieval xDxDxD
Good video for those who might actually not understand these things, but I think you give the culture grifters and their followers far more credit as thinking beings than they deserve. Top tier know the truth but are greedy. Bottom tier know the truth but are needy. Their "reasoning" is nonsense and they know it. They aren't trying to have a discussion. They are yelling nonsense loudly to signal their loyalty to "white" supremacy. There is no point to explain anything to them. This is good prevention for those on the edge who still have a brain and a will, to not fall down that hole though.
bro, I have a question!
do we know anything about ancient Egyptian music? I think they wrote a lot of things thus did we reconstruct anything?
none of them have said*
Interesting I wonder where the finished land in this because they are culturally similar to the Norse butt very distinct being from the phenol kick group culturally. The closest siblings are the Hungarians so perhaps they had throat singing and that would not be that much of a stretch for it to transfer from Finland That is had a settled area of in order to ask for the last at least 8 thousand years give or take a few thousand. (Archaeology is hard) Amazing video and discussion of the sources I wish more people would talk about this online like that like were actually in an academic setting but usually it's screaming in racism being thrown out everywhere so good work on you.
I think we need to seriously consider the possibility that the Vikings were yodeling tap-dancers that liked to through in jazz hands at the ends of songs. It's not impossible, there's no evidence against it
Franzl Lang Viking confirmed!!!!!!!?????
I mean, given more recent cultural trends... have you seen scandivian 'folk dance', clapclap jumpstomp spin
I hope they dabbed too
Have you considered that ancient norse had access to Wardruna? historical records of Wardruna are very sparse before 2003 and we can't discount the hypothesis that Wardruna as a band was active in that region.
Shit that explains it
There are some artifacts like some kind of documents, like a birth certificate or hospital register written in a language that it's not English dating back to sixties and seventies which could be related to wardruna, like confirming the existence of some of their members, but we can't be sure. it's pending close examination 😅😅😅😅
The main problem I have with arguing with people about stuff like this. Especially American Neo-Norse Pagan types is that debating them isn't even fun. You can point to historical facts all day with them about how Viking music sounded, what their religious rituals could have looked like and even that the Vikings were a small group of people in the Scandinavian population and they'll just repeat their romanticized viewpoints on "muh ancestors". When I debate people like a Bulgarian man I know who swore that Achilles from The Iliad was actually an ancient Bulgarian warrior whose powers came from the fact that he was actually just Bulgarian at least the debate itself is fun.
Now I wanna have an Achilles being Bulgarian debate hahaha
@@faryafaraji Arguing with Balkan people is something I recommend all men do. It changes you as a man.
@@thewamp9306 yeah especially with their turbofolk stuff
@@thewamp9306 I am from the Balkan peninsula and I approve this message
😂😂😂😂😂😂
Part of the reason it's not even fun is because it's such a mainstream viewpoint now. Pop culture has really ruined my interest in talking to anyone about most of Scandinavian history. Luckily, if you are of northern European ancestry and you want to learn more about that stuff, there's always the Balts, the Finns, and the Slavs.
I do Viking reenactment and it’s kind of shocking how common the Viking throat singing stuff is in the community. It’s just kind of funny that the same people that spend months researching Norse dyes to authentically reproduce a fabric and hand stitch a shirt based on a grave find fragment and period illustrations will also do Vikings throat singing and not question it.
There’s a great point repeatedly made by Jackson Crawford that we tend to be more focused on material historical accuracy than anything else. If you were to give Vikings a Chinese sword in a movie, people would lose their minds, but you give them throat singing from virtually the same distance geographically, and the same fanboys will die on the hill that there’s nothing wrong with it
yup, in my group it is the same. I showed them traditional skandinavian music, even medieval music which is written in runes and notes in danemark. And what was it what they said? Boring.
@@faryafaraji That is very true. You definitely see a lot of people lose their minds over small material issues in historical movies or of media and tend to completely ignore how they are portraying the cultural attitudes or lifestyles the people had which in my mind is far more significant to understanding the past. You mentioned that part of that is people trying to backdate our cultural view of the past on them and it reminds me of a major point of historiography. The past is a foreign county. Not literally of course but when we try to treat it like it is how we are now or in this case how we perceive them now but to treat it like a foreign country you don’t know anything about because it pretty much is.
I love that an ethnocentric Arab traveller with a clear distaste for the Norse is given such a charitable interpretation by modern people just to avoid the uncomfortable idea that people from all cultures are capable of being culturally insensitive.
Great point. We’re so used to only associating this kind of behaviour to recent Western colonisation that we forget this is literally the same thing: some guy from a technologically more advanced literary culture treating foreign natives like savages and looking down on them. Our boy Ibn Yaqub was literally just being racist lol
The only exception, maybe, is "ok, we only have information from Greek and Roman geographers who are not really reliable". Right, because if you read what they wrote would make your skin crawl. And let's not dive into the unfortunate implications of the Chinese explorers.......
All types of humans are capable of great good and great evil. It’s the nature of humanity.
Adding my (very cheap) two cents here : in today's traditional way of celebrating birthdays in Sweden, we sing a song and then everyone shouts "hurrah ! hurrah ! hurrah ! hurraaaaaaah !". THAT does sound quite a bit like "dogs barking". Much more than kargyraa in any case.
The only youtuber with whom I can learn, vibe to music AND crack a laugh multiple times in 1 video. Never thought throat singing would make for a topic worth several videos of debunking.
Thanks my man! Really appreciate the kind words❤
*barks aggressively at you*
Ah yes, PUBG
Medieval traveller: "these people are filthy, smelly, and they sing like dogs."
Modern people: "overtone throat singing, got it."
I've seen at least two primary sources describing my own ancestors the same way, by which logic I am forced to conclude that the Norse were secretly Slavs all along.
Did the Norse trade or rule over them at some point? I think I heard that they were invited into Ukraine in the past… maybe there was some cultural exchange!
@@jannafrancis7452 "Slav" as we think of it today is a bunch of different cultures mixed together. For example Eastern Slavic culture was heavily influenced by Rurik Dynasty who's leaders were Varangians (vikings) but today eastern slavic culture has just blended in with general slavic culture.
This is a whole political/nationalist thing in eastern europe today, surrounding whether or not the Rus culture developed under the Varangians or whether the Rus culture already existed and the Varangians simply ran things for a while. It's crazy, how angry people get over it.
@@jannafrancis7452 Yep! There are historically well-attested trade routes down from the Baltic to the Dnieper and the Black Sea, and there were definitely Norse dynastic families in modern day Ukraina, Belarus and Russia. But it was initially German and Scandinavian scholars proposing that the Kievan Rus states were Germanic, and Everyone Immediately Disliked That. So naturally I couldn't resist joking about the inverse scenario. Because we have substantially less written records of our histories than the Western countries, we tend to speculate wildly and people can get extremely attached to those speculations.
@jannafrancis7452 Not really per se. For starters, your question should more specific, but I'll do my best to answer. The Rus were a collection of slavs that migrated to the north and east and settled in what is today parts of Poland, Russia, Moldova, Slovakia, and Ukraine though at the time they were a collection of tribes who governed themselves as such. Other Slavic tribes migrated west or or south. Fast forward a bit and a swedish viking by the name of Rurik travels to Constantinople and serves as a member of the Varangian Guard for the Byzantine Emperor, a position that rewarded him in prestige, military and cultural experience and large amounts of gold as the varangians were still technically mercenaries despite also serving as the city guard of Constantinople abd the emperor's personal bodyguards. Also it is rumored, though I've yet to verify how true it is, that he was a descendant of Ragnar lothbrok , though that could just be folklore. Anyway he eventually retired from military service and settled in the Novgorod region with his family where the Russians made him grand prince and this the Ruriked dynasty was formed which ruled the Rus, and later built the city of Kiev among others and converting to Orthodox Christianity.
49 minutes of Norse music theory by a Persian who, we can only assume, is on his 3rd shot of whiskey, 5th pack of smokes and is on his last strand of sanity. All jokes aside Farya, continue what you do best,: entertaining me with sweet Epic Roman and Byzantine music to work out to. your current release Belisarius really gets the blood pumping when lifting weights.
@@chanting_germ. I’m Iranian but not Persian, I’m Mazandarani :)
@@faryafaraji thanks for the correction Farya, no offense was meant in my previous statement.
@@ronnieman87No worries my man, it’s an honest mistake but not offensive at all, Persians are awesome
true, Belisarius is a bop, well done farya
@@faryafarajiWhats the difference? No ill meant
Canadian man from the stone reliefs of Persepolis disproves the presence of throat singing in Norse music while quoting Pope Scarlett and playing Bollywood music.
I'm from Denmark myself and often to go to historical viking markets and musems, and 80% of people (specifically at the actual museums), actually seem to know what they are talking about, yet there are always some people wearing very inacurate clothes and jewelry (the vikings/norse did not even have earrings, actually), and some like to pretend that music like Wardruna, Heilung, ect (whom i love don't get me wrong), were what we actually sounded like during the viking age. It cant help but make me a bit sad.
One hand, i do believe the type of music vikings bands make are perfectly fine, especially those who use what we consider to be more "nordic tones" and actual nordic/viking intruments, and i believe that while such may not have existed in the actual viking age, it can still be more of a sub-genre to something like "modern-day viking music" or "viking-inspired music"
As long as they don't pretend it isnt
But on the other, i quite love the more historically accurate music people make, based on the most evidence of what we know their music sounded like. Especially considering we know some of their instrument.
And im sad i never hear of our beautiful vocal-singing traditions, that we have had for generations.
The swedes like to say kulning is a "swedish-only" kind of singing, but it seems like if we go back to the middles ages/the viking age, this seemed incredibly common? I wish we heard more of this type of music, because its beautiful and seems to be the most accurate in terms of oral tradition of the vikings.
Yet we never hear anything about it.
A singer from the farose islands called Eivor has songs where a lot of them is just type of howl-ish type of singing (perhaps a bit modernized to sound as good as possible), but if we sounded anything like that, i would MUCH rather hear about that, than about throat singing, despite the fact i still love what we have done with it in modern norse music
There's some research currently being done from Finnish early 20th century archives for herding calls and their sound, somewhat similar to Swedish archival kulning (that is very different from modern art music kulning)! It's very interesting and kind of reminds me of some of the polish and baltic open-voiced singing styles 😊
@@jasminv8653Those open-voiced styles sound alot like alpine yodeling, which in turn has ties to kulning, in that it was also used by shepherds to project their voice far and communicate over long distances. Probably my favorite traditional swiss instrument, the Alphorn, was used in the same way. I grew up at a lake between two mountain ranges, and when someone in the town at the other side of the lake played an alphorn, it was literally audible in the whole valley, as in a 5-10km radius! Absolutely ethereal. As for yodeling, much of it I don't personally like, but I know it's an extremely difficult technique to master. And the slower chants together with an alphorn do something for me. It sounds like home.
I just got to that part in the video where he mentions yodeling, which I think is hilarious because in my eyes, yodeling vikings seem ethnographically and geographically MUCH more likely than throat-singing vikings.
Eivör, while I love her music, isn't historically Germanic either; she got her inspiration from Inuit traditions.
Hey Farya. I am from Kazakhstan, and the other side of my family are Ethnic altais living in siberia. As you know, throat singing is an integral part of our culture as it is a way for us to imitate the beautiful sounds of nature all around us. I believe many cultures have many intrinsic and unique characteristics, and for me as a Turk, throat singing was that for me.
that being said i appreciate you covering a topic like this. Keep making these videos, they are very interesting and you are very good at presenting these ideas!
Where did this myth come from? Im born and raised in rural Norway and have never heard anything about throat singing in Norway. We have other interesting singing techniques like kauking/laling, but not throat singing
It just sounds "cool", "aggressive" and aligns with a certain ideal of masculinity in a past that they want to emulate. 🤷
th-cam.com/video/dtg2RIc7LvQ/w-d-xo.html
This video by a Heathen explains it pretty good imo
Thank you for mentionning them, I really wish more people knew about these special vocal styles in Scandinavia. Scandinavia has such a rich musical tradition of its own and it’s unfortunately overlooked in favour of completely unrelated musical practices
Kulning is SOOOOO beautiful. Incredible sound.
Hollywood probably.
"Scientific methodology doesn't work in a way where you can just cherry pick which culture you like and just put it to that culture". THANK YOU! ❤
I am so fed up with people pressing all kinds of culture expressions on the Vikings.
Best regards and again thank you from a Swedish Old Norse religion scholar, one that is very very tired of explaining to people that you can't just press Freya or Odin in with a crowbar everywhere you feel like it.
Also, thank you so much for a really extraordinary good channel. Historical music is one of my side interests and it is hard to find good sources out here where you can actually listen to suggestions on how it might have sounded.
Happy to see shout-outs to two of my YT faves, the Welsh Viking and Batzorig! Funny how, as you say, perceptions of the Norse and the Anglo-Saxons are so different. When you look at their stuff they're pretty damn similar. My Swedish friend, upon seeing some Old English, said "Oh! It's just really messed up Swedish" :)
I'm Norwegian, I've never heard anything in our folk music that bares even the slightest hint of resemblance to overtone throat singing. But I also have no idea what this humming could be, the description is too vague lol, if it was just normal humming it wouldn't be described as sounding worse than a dog barking. I hope some other source pops up somewhere that provides a better description, but I doubt one ever will.
It's a bit frustrating that the throat singing myth is completely overshadowing the cool stuff that we do have. Like the kulokk/kulning, laling, and stuff. Which is stuff I think the vikings were 100 times more likely to have, because at least we have evidence of that stuff being present in Scandinavia lol.
I wish I could travel back in time and force the man to give a longer description.
As a musicologist who is currently finishing a paper on Vikingset-Soundtrack-Aesthetics, arguing that soundaesthetics and their association should be merely seen through the lens of a non-puristic Folk-Revival, where historical artefacts and findings are merely part of a playground than a stage for historical accurate reconstructions I would like to thank you for your time, effort, patience and work on that topic (and as far as I can tell with a glance on your further videos I realize that I'm going to spend some - like... a lot of - time here). 👏👏👏
I love your take! I do enjoy the subtle concession you give that there's nothing particularly wrong that bands like Heilung employ throat singing to build on their aesthetic, it works and people enjoy it, I for one eat it up, but I acknowledge it's not historical and there's nothing wrong with that, as they themselves say they're not recreating historically accurate viking age music, they're taking what little we know about it and applying modern ideas to it to create something new and beautiful
As a neo-pagan from Sweden, THANK YOU! This has annoyed me since the first season of Vikings.
I love "viking" songs but for me theyre more of the fantasy kind of viking, not the real vikings. I am currently working on a viking settlement thesis atm, and alot of the problems I struggle with are dealing with my own modern bias and ideas about Iron Age in general (In norwegian academia, viking age is considered to be in the Late Iron Age, and not in Middle-Ages). My sources usually are good in being critical towards theyre own texts. which is good. Problem with internet is that comments, such as those you showed, doesnt seem to rly have critical thinking of its own content. Its always important to ask whether or not the question one may have can be answered. I am also a bit critical to the modern view on viking terminology, but i do not have any basis or data enough to come with harsh criticisms. This is one thing i hate about certain yt comments: people just attack you for no reason and dont even have a well read or sometimes not even well written sources. It feels like they just want to argue with you to make you feel bad. Good video as always Farya, i tend to avoid discussions about viking age in general when i am not studying archaeology or not being with my classmates.
I think it's time someone wrote a Viking opera with microtonal overtone throat singing and horned helmets. There, I said it.
Well we do have that one berserker fire ritual scene in The Northman!
Sardinia has throat singing, Sardinia had horned helmets in the Bronze Age, therefore Vikings had throat singing. Checkmate.
impeccable logic
Not only that, but this means that Sardinians are Mongols as well!
Sardinia had Sardines. Sardines are fish, so if vikings also had fish, they also had throatsi ging
@@balkanmountains2-3131 never has anyone spooken wisest words. 😂
@@elmarm.5224 400 million years ago, our ancestors were fish, which means that Sardinians, Vikings, Mongols, Finns and Koreans are related because they're all fish.
Saying "oh, its a growling worse than dogs barking, must be throat singing" feels... weirdly insulting to throat singing
Exactly my thoughts! If we immediately assume that it's throat singing, it really does feel insulting
I love this man and his extremely detailed comments and addendums. Watching his videos is like if the people that write essays in comments on random videos decided to actually be useful and make videos, without the bird shit brain phenomenon. I love it.
Also, a lot of TH-cam content on history, culture, and languages is generally very surface level and overdone and oversaturated. Basically to the effect of reading a Wikipedia article, writing a script l, slapping a crude animation and calling it a day. Farya’s content is one of the needles in the haystack where I am continuously surprised and delighted to actually be learning and hearing about something for the first time. He delves into our pop culture subconscious in ways your IG infographic types or Twitter threads never could. Also, writing my own comment essay for this felt divinely inspired. Farya is doing gods work and I’m thrilled to see the progression of this channel’s growth.
Swedish folkmusik nerd here🥰(apologize in advance for bad english spelling). If there were any troughtsinging in our culture in the viking age I can see no traces of it to day. Sami jojk is very old but still around(NOT trought singing). We have a very old singing technic called ”kulning” though, it was used as a working tool during summer to call home cows ,check that out👍
Man I love this video. I am just fed up with people bringing pop-culture into academic discussions. Good that at least someone is standing up for the truth. Nothing as dangerous as people bending history to their preference and will. Thanks man, keep up the great work.
In case anyone ever thought paleontology was the only scientific field facing passionate resistance from meatheads on the grounds that pop culture fantasies are "cooler" and therefore more deserving of being real
And even that's not a perfect comparison, at least the Jurassic Park version of this phenomenon was based (in part) on actual outdated hypotheses, this whole Viking Throat Singing™ business emerged whole cloth from pop culture, no scientific method required
Time to wildly speculate about which field's getting hit next!
Ancient Atlantis aliens built Antarctic pyramids, change my mind
@@faryafaraji this comment aged like wine
By "it sounded like dogs barking", what we can take from that is that they were clearly referencing the sharp hardcore vocals of Jacob Bannon, and therefore all viking music should sound as much like Converge as possible
It's also important to note that the Norse-descended people Ibn Cadlan met didn't live in Scandinavia and may have had very different music from those who did.
These videos are things I've been searching for for a while! I study comparative literature (literature's version of ethnomusicology) and have always wanted to understand global music outside the stereotypes of Hollywood or other popular media. Thank you!
Oh gods, thank you for this Video, Farya.
As an archaeologist the massive fantastical romanticisation certain people try to manifest as “truth” concerning eras and peoples in history is at times utterly maddening.
You know the funny thing is I had never heard of a throat singing viking trope until you started making videos on it,thanks for safeguarding me from taking it seriously in the future I suppose
This type of thinking, "Just because there's no evidence doesn't mean that it didn't exist" is incredibly pervasive, not just in history and musicology but also in other fields, most notably creationism in science. I could probably sit down for a day or two and watch Professor Dave, Gutsick Gibbon, Genetically Modified Skeptic, and a bunch of other channels tear into these creationist and ID arguments, which frequently cite, "just because there's no evidence doesn't mean that it didn't exist."
I personally like SciManDan, Sir Sic, and The Creaky Blinder
As a Swede watching this video, this was honestly the first time I've come into contact with the idea that throat singing was meant to be something we did back in the day. There's thankfully no such mythical undercurrents in our lessons on history and the likes when we grow up, and the music is generally known to have been, well, rather unknown, with a few surviving instruments and records to figure it out from. It sounds a lot like the anger at your previous video might come from those who have built a connection with the "vikings" out of pop culture depictions and Ancestry tests or similar, who are very much angry that what has felt very real to them was instead a fabrication to sell something to them. Excellent video.
(A satirical take!)
You know, my Indian father taught me the breathing techniques for meditation one of which resembles very much Central Asian throat singing. Also, Balochi tribes have this kind of singing techniques. So, it should be of Indo-Iranian origin. What if the Turkic and Mongolic people adopted throat singing from the Iranian peoples (the Sakas/Scythes) who lived before the Turkic peoples in Central Asia?? What if it came through Buddhism??? (This is why the Tibetans have it!) What, if it was something originally Indo-European surviving in pockets in Iran, India, Scandinavia and in other cultures contacting the AncIneNT IndoUeroapans!!!!??? It can't be excluded! What, if T-Rex had throat singing? It sounded very guttural in the movies, there is no evidence against it, yes!
(Reminding, it's really just a bad joke😅)
The saddest part is that this is a typical genuine comment on most Reddit history discussion forums; you’d get quite a few dozen likes there lol
I love this take, all good things undoubtedly came from the Aryavartha obviously.
On your comment on Tyrannosaurid throat singing, here are some reconstructed sounds of what it might have sounded like based on birds and crocodiles th-cam.com/video/SpO_ov2iWyI/w-d-xo.html
Parasaurolophus is a whole different story, sounds like a celtic carnyx
I think you present a fair argument.
As a fan of Wardruna, I've never felt they were trying to be historically accurate, but just carry a Viking theme, like Amon Amarth, but more Neo-folk and less metal. And my impression of Neo-Folk is that it's a modern take on traditional & folk music, therefore, not historically accurate, but take in other sounds and ideas that complement it for something more original & creative that invokes certain feelings and throatsinging definitely complements it. There's just a difference between 'fantasy' Vikings and 'historical' vikings. Because Vikings definitely have captured people's imaginations and what has come out of it is undoubtably cool but we don't have to pretend it's reality to be able to love it. And heck, Viking fantasy is what led me to learn more about real vikings.
And you're absolutely right about paganism. It's so broad you might as well just say 'religion'. I get some beliefs have acquired the word 'paganism' in them, like Norse Pagans. But we never say 'Mongolic Pagans' although they would have been called pagans by the horribly broad defintion, but we have a name for the religious beliefs there and that's 'Tengrism'. Sure there are paralells, such as them both containing shamanism, but 'shamanism' is also a broad term. And Tengrism isn't exclusive to Mongolic people either, like non-Mongolic Siberians.
But why the need to appropriate the practices and beliefs of other cultures into a history that didn't happen when you can appreciate the practices & beliefs of those cultures? I have a love and deep interest in Mongolia, Tuva and many parts of central Asia, but I also love Vikings. I am learning khoomei, kargyraa and sygyt, but the songs I am learning/will be learning are Tuvan and Mongolian in nature (I want to learn both styles, but am starting with Tuvan). And these sounds go quite well with other genres of music too, like the blues as Paul Pena did, with rock like Yat Kha & The Hu, with country like Soriah did with a Tuvan band covering Ghost Riders in the Sky, with game scores like Alash did with Austin Wintory for The Pathless, with metal like Uuhai and Tenger Cavalry and so on.
With all that said, out of all your points, I'd like to say...the Iliad in kargyraa would be pretty badass. And I think we should add yodelling to Amon Amarth songs.
Might as well throw in some beat boxing too! No proof they weren’t 😂
About the " dog barking"
In Greece a part of the pop music is called " skyladika" literally dog songs with the night clubs playing that music also nicknamed skyladika - dog clubs
Just imagine future musicians trying to reconstruct a mixture of gypsy, oriental and western music
Based on the " dog" part 😂😂😂
Now I want to hear " pantremeni ki dio" ( married both of us) in throat singing style
Because MAKIS is the ultimate " dog" 😂😂😂
I like to think that Ibn Yaqub just met 1 Nordic guy who made a weird noise once, and wrote about it.
I doubt it, but it’s an interesting idea. Like if someone saw a street performer somewhere and then wrote “These people have an amazing tradition of juggling knifes, practiced by even the lowliest of the urban plebes.”
44:42 I was going to make a comment disagreeing with the opening about horned helmets but decided not to since people are for some reason _very_ passionate about Viking age horned helmets being 'debunked', so it was a nice surprise to see this note near the end. Thanks for accurately reporting reality. There actually _exists_ evidence suggesting that the Norse in the Viking age _might_ have had horned helmets: as you mention, there are horned helmets from the area and they're depicted in tapestries, but there's no evidence of the Norse having throat-singing ancestors or neighbours.
ngl farya you have inspired my fashion sense. let my hair and beard grow long and curly fit for an Achaemenian.
Man, this is a reality I would rather remain in ignorance about, but now that the veil has been lifted, I'm at least glad someone as qualified as you took the time and effort to fight the madness with reason and wit. As a norwegian musician with an interest in a range of cultural / historical musical expressions, from Bach-style counterpoint on the organ to melodic jaw harp playing and pure overtone singing, I've never once heard throat singing and vikings mentioned in the same sentence, and it doesn't make sense to me why so many people can't just appreciate a musical style for what it is without having to root it firmly in their ancestry! I would never expect this misconception to exist in the first place, not to mention being as widespread as it is. After watching these videos though, I definitely share the concern about popculture and the internet warping the collective understanding of the past.
I love how you not only debunks the arguments and myths as you give us context and insight of how the scientific method works. It is a difficult thing to be concise, didactic and pleasant to be heard like you are. You're a great communicator with several Britney Spears references.
Now I lowkey wanna hear Roman music with Sardinian Canto.
At least with joddeling it is within the Germanic sphere. Couldn't decide whether that argument was purely a strawman or not. Though I have no idea when joddeling even appears and it probably, like many forms of folk music, isn't attested earlier than the Romantic period. The thing about that is that people like to take the oldest attested example of something and project it indefinitely into the past. Like if our timeframe is 200 and we know from the earliest attestation of something it changed a lot, why would we assume it did never change in the 1000 years prior? Why would we assume the oldest known of something is automatically the oldest something of something.
Also surprised you didn't mention joik. Though you did mention in in another video and frankly it still sounds rather distinct from the stuff that Wardruna and co present to us.
Great video
I’m legit working on an Epic Roman music with a Sardinian theme with cantu hahaha.
But yeah when it comes to yodelling, I don’t think it’s a strawman, in fact it’s exactly the same as the throat singing counter-argument: you pluck out one unusual vocal technique out of the infinity of “not impossible” and retroactively decide to apply it to the Norse without any particular reason to do so in the first place. And as you said, yodelling at least has some geographical proximity and is known in the Germanic sphere, so at that point, my yodelling argument might even be too generous compared to overtone throat singing.
And absolutely, the chronological thing also applies. People love to use Sardinia as an argument for the Norse having throat singing, but Sardinian cantu a tenore existing today isn’t proof that it existed 1000 years ago, so it’s not even an argument for Medieval Sardinia, let alone Medieval Scandinavia. I think when it comes to throat singing, there’s such an association with “primal/nature/spiritual” in people’s minds that everyone assumes it must be as old as the neolithic, but there’s no reason to think that. Maybe it’s 600 years, or 300 years old for all we know.
I'm a huge Heilung fan, but I never thought of the throat singing as being organic to the Nordic/Germanic context of their music. I thought of it (and still do) as an effective addition to it. Some of their first songs include modern English, which certainly wasn't around in those days - but it worked with the art they're making. Art is an interpretation, not necessarily historical. I do think the throat singing fits well, even if it wasn't a thing way back when, as the nature of what Heilung has developed has much to do with sound/vibration conveying energy.
People invest a lot of emotion into what they want to be true, and it becomes a matter of "winning" the argument rather than landing on objective truth. It's a sign of their continuing need for growth which, if acknowledged, will happen naturally with time. Thus, I try not to get too wound up about it. It is frustrating, in the moment, for sure - but age has taught me that I can look backwards at any time and marvel at the ignorance I thought I had surely gotten past. Life is learning and those who know the least, know it the loudest. Sometimes it takes embarrassing ourselves to figure that out.
People want to blame Abrahamic religions for a lot of problems today, because "paganism" is the counter-culture, it's shown as cool and punk in pop culture. It's shown as the side that protects nature and embodies values in general that are better for society. "Paganism" doesn't exist, like you said, if the definition is anything opposed to Abrahamic religions and the status quo. 99% of human beliefs have been "pagan", like you said. Surely, these beliefs can't all be the same. It's a great disrespect to the people who believe or have believed in them. They should go ask a Shinto believer, or a Hindu, if they're pagan.
I haven't seen popular media depict "pagan" rites in a respectful accurate manner. They always go for the "wow violent and bloody and sexy" factor, which is such a shame. Imagine if most depictions of the Eucharist was about a sexy woman pouring wine over her chest. Even HBO Rome is guilty of this.
I’m going to venture that if Scandinavians practiced throat singing, it would have survived the Christianization of the region and been practiced into the medieval period, in church, not unlike the use of runes.
Great point, alot of people love to say that the Church eradicated throat singing because it would have been their pagan practice, but then the same people point to Sardinia having throat singing as being proof of an ancient pan-European throat singing practice that existed in Scandinavia too. But Sardinia is super Catholic and they sing religious songs with throat singing, so clearly it’s not a given that Christianisation necessarily kills throat singing
As a guy who writes historical themed music I do a bit of throat singing cuz it sounds cool, I used a viola and play two strings at the same time as it sounds so good. I have written music that could be more “accurate” but it can’t be, as if it was truly accurate you’d be listening to it live, in person and we’d be living in those times… so yeah.
To get the closes sound I can I look to what instruments where found in those cultures and then I add sounds that are “modern” to ironically give it the aesthetics of the past. But acts like this have sadly caused and are caused by people hearing it and not knowing this is inaccurate.
Anyway thank you for reading my comment, I apologise if it makes no scenes outside of my head, hope you have a good day!
P.S. Farya is very attractive and no one can change my mind!
Wow, your epic talking videos has just increased in quality. Great video Farya
There's a lot of "my ancestors did that too" rewriting of history for the purpose of cultural appropriation.
When... It's perfectly okay to just borrow things and admit to borrowing it. Like modern math. (Thanks Arabs and Indians, among others)
But hey I'm clicking on a video i already agree with by a TH-camr I'm already subscribed to.
Thanks for bringing this up, because cultural appropriation is a real thing to consider with this issue.
Heilung and similar bands have every right to use singing techniques from other cultures; this isn’t cultural appropriation since they’ve always credited said cultures. But when a major chunk of the audience genuinely believes that throat singing is literally part of the cultural heritage of Scandinavia, and start angrily claiming it as an established part of that region’s cultural legacy, that is the literal, textbook definition of cultural appropriation.
@@faryafaraji precisely, and well said.
Well, said Farya! I love your music videos, including this one. As someone who is part ethnically Scandinavian, I actually completely agree regarding how Germanic tribes didn’t really have throat singing. I honestly don’t think about it as a Greek, Roman, Germanic or Celtic thing TBH. I always thought of it as mostly a Turkic, Siberian, and Mongolian thing or perhaps even common amongst various northern Native American tribes. I don't even get why it's such a big deal to people anyway. Lmao. Throat singers or not, all of those aforementioned ethnicities had baller music. Who cares?
they growled the names of their gods or leaders into their shields until it became a yelling..... Try throat singing "Donar! Donar! Donar!" or in case of the late roman army "Herakles! Herakles! Herakles!" I would like to see them try that.
Love seeing you dismantle stuff like this. Sad that people feel the need to get so up in arms about something so needless, though. There are so many more interesting things to do with one’s time than insist almost dogmatically that the Norse had overtone throat singing. I really hope you get some more positive feedback on this video; after all the trouble this has put you to, I think it might make things a little better.
Funny enough, the yodeling from the alps, might be more "legit" than throath singing, since it came about from cattle calling (from wikipedia) which is kinda simmilar in someways to the scandinavian Kulning/Lalning, which is likewise a herding call which have kinda evolved into music.
From a scandinavian perspective, i am danish myself. I find the idea of throat singing quite funny, since i have only heard it on youtube and never in real life and never really seemed traditional "scandinavian" to me. It is shame because there some quite good scandianvian folk songs. like:
Eli Storbekken - Laling (norwegian folkmusic)
Harald Foss - Rolandskvadet (Norwegian folk song)
Erik Harbo - Ramund (Danish medieval ballad)
Dråm - Kringellek (nordic bagpipe + harp)
Emma Björling - Herr Hillebrand
Sten Lerche - Roselil' og hendes moder (Danish)
Kata - Grímur á Miðalnesi (Faroese folk song)
Tiriltunga - Aksel og Valborgs vise
Agnete og Havmannen (Norwegian folk song)
Kristín Á. Ólafsdóttir - Krummavísur (Icelandic folk song)
Glad that you added that note at the end, the whole conclusion I was thinking "which is more reasonable? Norse throat-singing because one comparison to dogs with no cultures they had ties with doing so; or Norse horned helmets like their region provably HAD?
In my ears, throat singing also sounds absolutely not canine in any way. For real I find it hard to imagine which animal sounds like this. The closest thing throat singing is comparable to are electronic acid basslines, but I humbly assume that the Vikings did not have these, and the steppe people that are known for their throat singing had neither for most of the time.
Now I'm waiting for the next piece of epic Roman music to include some Khoomei throat singing. Maybe just as a little detail in the background. The first of April isn't far away.
i put this in the "trust me, i can have dreads! it's not appropriation! the vikings had dreads, because this one text said something about braids, braids are dreads, trust me!" section.
The virgin "I can have dreads because this ancient culture that I distantly descend from had dreads." vs. the Chad "I can have dreads because I can grow and maintain dreads and I like how they look on me."
I like these videos the blend of humour and informative content is great.
I like the idea of viking throat singing, but yeah, that idea 100% comes from listening to Heilung. Never even entered my mind before. I don't know why people can't just enjoy the music for what it is instead of getting weird about it. Heilung never made any claims about historical accuracy to my knowledge.
I love your presentation style and wit. Going to check out your other content.
I was not expecting to hear Sardegna mentioned here... and I am so happy for it ^^
From hobby music point of view, I love this, thank you; from nordic cultural history studies point of view, I love this, thank you; from nordic living history re-enactment point of view, I love this, thank you; from folk metal fan perspective, I love this, thank you. Intellectual dishonesty is so widespread online, and especially surrounding whenever northern europe pops up, and it has me pulling my hair so so often. I'm so glad you've made videos on this among all of your other interesting topics. Thank you 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
every day I get on the internet and find people having discourse I never imagined
Farya looks like a CK3 character with all the good congenital traits
I’ve been waiting for this one lol throat singing immediately takes me out of Viking themed music. Honestly I don’t hear Wardruna doing it very often, but even the low growling that comes up sometimes, usually as background, just feels out of place.
This theoat singing is part of a mich more complex structure living from these clichés and assumptions. Especially merch serllers, musicians and item sellers.
Bretons had throatsinging. Genghis khan was a breton, his real name was Gwen-yannis C'han. You don't have the proof of what I'm saying is fake so now you have to considerate my hypothesis.
Did I do it right ?
Give this man a raise
The Breton lobby strikes again. (Mont Saint-Michel is Norman.)
Farya, I love your videos. Very accurate and historical. Your logical reasoning is impeccable!
I have been really enjoying these videos. I converted from Norse Paganism 11 years ago. This kind of stuff is what I have been trying to tell people for all these years... but no one would believe me. So, thanks Farya!
“Well you can’t prove they DIDNT have throat singing “ implying that someone from that time period would go out of their way to write an official document saying “no throat singing here!” For some reason.
The "anything is possible" section was pure gold and a celebration of the scientific method!!
This just in, Cyrus the Great is back and roasting the absolute shit out of guys who think hyperboria is real
My only question is what is your hair routine? I have curly hair too and I grew it out long, but have recently cut it since I couldn't get it to look right. I'm wanting to grow it back out.
Same, I must know.
Your comment about things being very centered around Abrahamic religions is very true, it is something I think about a lot. In cultures that are centered around Christianity, those who move away from that tend to end up seeing Christianity as the enemy, as some kind of ultimate villain we are working against, as something that completely ruined the world, but then ironically their faith becomes unintentionally very centered around it regardless. Even if negatively, it is some sort of massive driving force around their faith, and it becomes Christianity versus everything else, simultaneously overestimating the religion that they want to separate from and underestimating the new one (in terms of it being new to them) they want to be a part of. My husband is Hindu, and has been Hindu his entire life as is his family, and I was raised Baptist, later became Atheist, and I have now been Hindu since I met my husband. In my own culture, those that are becoming something separate from Christianity will find that their newfound community will tend to be very focused on Christianity and the harm it causes and how your newfound beliefs are to counter act that and perpetually fight against it. However, when I asked my husband's uncle about Christianity, he said it just exists, he doesn't think about it, his beliefs have nothing to do with it. It is not a threat to him or something he works against, our beliefs are not to counter act it, it is just there and has nothing to do with us. After he said that it very much changed my perspective of things and made me think a lot about how many people, unintentionally or not, tend to chalk up other religions, even their own, into being just "not Christianity", which is ironically exactly what the people they are trying to fight against were doing. There is much more to Paganism than that it is "not Christian" and if we understand how different Mormons and Catholics are, then there is no reason we should ever think that Mongolian and Norwegian paganism were the exact same, and it also takes away from the significance of your own worship to only see your beliefs as something to oppose Christianity. I am very grateful to worship alongside my husband's family, and to have such beautiful insights into Hinduism that they provide me each day.
My historical sources say that the Vikings actually invented punk rock and it sounded like the band GBH. So I could see how historians hated it.
I know this is true because I hear it with my own ears and a guy told me a friend of his said so.
I stumbled across your channel for the gaining of new knowledge, but I'm sticking around for the sass.
I love your content man! Learning so much from what you're posting and it really inspired to continue my history-geek days! Keep it up, much love
I loved the use of natural light and the way it changes throughout the video honestly that was a really cool atmospheric touch. Fantastic rant, would watch again.
eyeliner looks amazing on you brother
I also hate the classification of "paganism" as if everything that falls there are the same or related. I always love mythologies and religions for their own uniqueness and don't like to lump them all together just because they aren't christian or abrahamic.
I've heard metal fans quote the same passage to suggest a death metal growl, btw. At least that's actually popular in modern Scandinavia.
You should discuss this with SurviveTheJive, You both would have interesting talk.
In the process of trying to force vikings to have had throat singing, people have neglected actual norse singing styles, that are cool in their own way, which the vikings could have had, like kulning.
Something these people who claim these things never point out is ...the nature of their language.
The language itself I imagine also played a role in these ancient descriptions, maybe the singing wasn't even bad or growling or throat singing or whatever, just maybe the singing in their language sounded harsher. People from the south describe these languages even to this day as harsh, I don't agree personally, I am Greek and I am familiar with a bunch of Nordic and Germanic languages and I don't find them any more brutish, but many people around me when listening Norwegian or German do really think of these languages as harsh and brutish and the phrase they are barking is one I have heard many times to describe them actually.
Also, are we sure that the "like a dog, but more bestial" doesn't mean howling? Throat singing doesn't sound like any sound dogs do, even if the phrase was more actual than we give it credit, but dogs and wolves also howl and it can be much more ominous and primal than just barking. If someone hadn't heard Kulning or a very strong head voice before, these sounds do resemble howling and it is possible that Kulning might have served to scare away predators as well, bc it was used (and if I am not wrong is still used) in some areas to gather livestock, like in the Balkans and the Middle East etc we whistle with our fingers to gather them. It is crazy to me that these phrases are even discussed that much because at first glance, even if not a musicologist, look like very flimsy "throat singing evidence" to me.
And something last, because the "logic" they apply to this really blows my mind, why do they think that they had never heard throat singing before? Especially the Romans! If they had never heard something similar looks like a very peculiar thing to not point out more than once and that vaguely, but the thing is that even the idea that Romans had never heard throat singing ever before is very difficult to accept, because Sardinia. If they had heard Sardinians throat singing, then why not say "Oh, they're singing similar to them", bc it is not a common style of singing if you hear it in one place and then once again in another, you will point it out most likely.
Anyway, I am stopping the essay here, love your epic talking videos!
The little tinkling pinao piece the comes in at 12:15 is the same piece of music my video production teacher gave us to score our silent film projects.
The problem with commenters using the 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence' argument is that it effectively makes their hypothesis: "At least one Nordic person at some point in history attempted throat singing" which is probably true, but essentially meaningless.
I don't really think ancient Greek throat singing is that crazy. They had lots of contact with other cultures. At least one of them at some point has to have tried it. But it definitely doesn't mean that throat singing was part of the Greek musical canon. Same thing for the Norse.
nowadays it is almost like the historical or semi historcal channels are fully aware and interactive with each other which seems really nice for example l have seen history with cy comment in your videos kings and generals commenting on his etc its like the start of a fully fledged historical communtiy on all categories interacting with each other
Internet discussions have a 25% chance of being a educational and learning discussion, while there is a 75% chance of degrading into a incoherent as shouting match of ideas clouded by personal judgment on a subject.
Its always best to find a channel, like Farya's, where one can see and possible have a well rounded discussion, or learn something from Farya himself.
Though I must say I'm still waiting patiently for a Augustus song or symphony.
I thought the whole thing about Vikings not having horned helmets came more from mistaking ceremonial helmets from ones actually intended for combat.
There are plenty of Bronze Age helmets with horns. That's likely where the Victorians got the idea for Medieval horned helmets. Branding something as "ceremonial" can also be a mistake. Just because a modern thinks something wouldn't work or isn't technologically sound doesn't mean it wasn't used by people in the past.
I'm sure there were some horned helmets floating around in the North Sea during the Bronze Age, but they were likely being worn by Moloch worshipping Phoenicians.
I love that you pronounced Tacitus properly.
Great video! I can see three vectors that account for so many people believing this idea of throat singing in Norse culture. These are arrived at through very, very rudimentary logic with holes you could drive a bus through, so criticism is more than valid. The first is massive historical and cultural compression. The Vikings went to Russia (big Normanist alarm siren), so representations of early Rus in popular culture are heavily accented by Norse but not exclusively depicted as Norse. There is usually some amalgamation of Norse, Byzantine and Mongol tropes, fashions and music. By collapsing elements that are separated by hundreds of years this early Rus ended up being Vikings, with cavalry, brocade and throat-singing. Then this (last part at least) is read backwards as a part of the "Viking" culture. Second, pop-culture's repetition of the trope tends to consolidate it in the mind, the bandwagoning that you mentioned. Finally, it's pretty simple othering. People want to see the Norse as special and different, so they cannot do things the way we do/did them. Following this they have attributed the analogues of difference in our modern world (from a Western perspective), hence the throat-singing as it is seen as at a remove from Western culture. The whole thing stinks to me of the same revisionism of old Celtic religion and culture.
Yugoslav turbofolk is the true and only warrior music especially the Serbian songs
I sincerely agree with every word of this sentence
Ibn Yaqub: Ya'll, Scandinavian food tastes like dogshit.
Pop Culture:.... Welp, you heard the man.
The whole thing about "They were pagans, therefore throat singing" make me think about the old evolutionist approach to ethnology (largely abandoned by now) that stated that all civilizations had to follow the exact same steps in their history before being trully civilised. It usually was a three steps process (primitive => barbarian => civilized) with obviously the last step conveniently being the Western social norm most often than not, with stuff like religion going animism => polytheism => monotheism and marriage being "horde" (basically everyone can do stuff with everyone) => polygamy => monogamy. This idea of a uniform process that every culture has to go through seems to still be quite popular nowadays.
I love your videos and whole-heartedly agree with the points you make in this one. I try to avoid discussing with people for exactly that reason, the way how they "argue". Glad and sad at the same time, that I'm not alone dealing this phenomenon, that appears to becoming more and more mainstream.
Keep up the good work
i never thought i would have watched a 49 minute video about the singing practices of some people 1200 years ago but you managed to pull me in anyway
P.S. the conclusion at the end really exposed the prevalence of pseudo-scientism today, great video as always Farya
38:58 Actually, I wouldn't be up-in-arms if you did that because that song sounds really cool. Release the full version of "Call to Valhalla"!
There are some cultures that are _geographically_ close that do have throat singing, but they are notably separate to the point of being isolated from Norse culture. It seems unlikely that that would be the only thing to make the cultural jump. To me it sounds more like a description of vocal fry, but what do I know?
ok... hear me out: his eyeliner and curls look phenomenal!!!! An ancient portrait come to life
Thank you for your videos and your comprehensive explanations! They are very informative and helpful and much food for thought!
To add my two cents to the pool of voices in the comments: I'm an archaeologist and started my studies back in 2010. Bach then, one year after Wardruna's Gap Var Ginnunga came out, there was no talk of throat singing or overtone singing in a Viking context whatsoever. Plus the band was still fairly unknown.
There also was no "Vikings" (as in the series) yet, so anyone who would have suggested locks or mohawk hairstyles for vikings would have been doubted a lot. Because there is no evidence for that (as amazing as the aesthetics and sounds may be, there is no basis in history. Linked is a video about Viking age hair. th-cam.com/video/LCnacDWAOFc/w-d-xo.html )
I can even still remember the lesson when we looked at the primary source you mentioned, about "singing like barking dogs" (the translation was a bit different, since it was a more recent German translation from the original, not the old one from the 1920s.) And our professor literally stared laughing how openly Ibn Yaqub made fun of Viking music that way.
Of course one COULD very hypothetically start an interpretation of a singing style based on this one phrase. But since the object of this statement was not a neutral report, any theory would be nothing more than highly conjectural.
Now 13 years later, suddenly throat singing is THE trend in Viking/Pagen/Norse music. And almost every single Viking reenactor wears their hair like Ragnar or Lagertha. But that doesn't make it historical. It shows more of our Zeitgeist, our networking and especially the massive influence a few films, shows, or bands can have on public opinion and "knowledge" about history.
I myself love the music, and can appreciate it as an aesthetic choice. But it is (sadly for some) only a fantastical one, not a sudden historical revelation unearthed by these bands/showrunners/etcs.
(If the misrepresenation of viking age northern europeans and their culture is a subject you're interested in, I can highly recommend @theWelshViking. You two teaming up would be very cool and informative.
His take on "Horned Helmets" th-cam.com/video/dVhAF8JDAL4/w-d-xo.html)
I have watched this video twice this week and it is still a masterpiece
My current research lies in Latin literature from the 16th century, and I’ve just recently read a guy (who had been to Ottoman Constantinople himself!) who states that _“even Fauns are able to sing more beautifully [than the Turks]”._ I’m not even kidding. So, there’s the proof: Ottoman court music, which even some Sultans composed, used throat singing! 😱