Rogue One : A Star Wars Story - Does the Ending Make Sense? | Renegade Cut
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ต.ค. 2024
- Police quotas, police arrest incentives and their relationship with the ending of Rogue One and beginning of A New Hope. Star Wars has always been political. Get ready for more of it. Support Renegade Cut Media through Patreon: / renegadecut
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People really think this is a plot hole? I thought the explanation you gave was pretty obvious without even really thinking about it.
Yeah thats where I landed
Savannah Simpson Even before I saw Rogue One I still read that scene as “Leia was essentially caught red handed but is lying because that is literally her only card to play”
The haters just forget how we're meant to talk to cops. I wonder why.
Like....what are star wars stan fans on about? It's obvious Leia was pleading the space 5th? Vader even sounds angry she would dare to out right lie to his face after eveything that just happened. AKA she was playing dumb.
like seriously, how could anyone, even at the original release not know she was playing dumb?
I ALWAYS, before R1 thought she was feigning ignorance. I cant believe this is considered a plot hole.
Of course she was. Only after R1 seems pointless since they've been followed from the batlle
@@ssssssssssssssssss50 but she doesn't know if he saw that exact ship, especially as the capture would have been hours or days later (can't track through hyper space)
@@ssssssssssssssssss50 Do you know why I pulled you over?
Don't. Talk. To the Empire!
Citizen would you like to have a chat at your local Detention Center?
Maybe instead of saying "F**k the Empire!" maybe you should just respect our storm troopers.
All Stormtroopers Are Bastards
All hail the Galactic Empire
It seems that these days most "plot holes" are a product of people literally not knowing how to watch movies.
Yuuuup.
Nailed it.
Pretty much.
That's 100% of what Cinema Sins is.
Reading the criticism online of Interstellar's physics made me find out what the Dunning-Kruger Effect is. Explains a lot.
Leon's PSA on best practises for a traffic stop, with a very clever Star Wars tie in. Great episode!
Justin Peterson I actually had no idea about these responses to traffic stops. I always assumed you needed to tell the officer why they would have pulled you over as it would make you seem more aware of your situation? I don't know - my family is very much one of those "trust the police absolutely" types.
Leia should have said "Lord Vader, am I being detained or am I free to go?"
The dialogue also works as a delay tactic by Lia to allow R2 time to get away. She is doing what she can in the given situation to protect the rebellion and advance it's goals.
Vader was just filling his "capture space princesses" Quota!!
Anacronian that comes with a lot benefits! No wonder it's a popular job with villains XD
Do you know how many princesses there are in an empire comprised of thousands of solar systems?
Shir Deutch
Do you? 🤣
Who knows how many ships Vader boarded before only to be told by some person in a mushroom hat that the princess was on another ship?
One thing that I have started wondering recently is how the Star Wars would have looked like if A New Hope would have premiered in 2018. It was very political back then, and became even more so with the Phantom Menace.
Star wars (1977) had its criticism. Pauline kael said "it was the infantilization of cinema". Empire,return,Phantom,attack,Last,Etc have always been criticized by some one and praised by others
As someone who wasn't raised on the series (we had the dvds but it was never a huge deal in our house) I think it's good but no masterpiece
Same here. I like most of what Star Wars has to offer, but even still, I would never go out of my way to rewatch any of the movies that I have already seen and I still haven't seen any of the Disney ones yet.
kinnikufan You should at least see Rogue One. It is, to date, Disney's best offering in the Star Wars universe. Frankly, it's a movie I can watch over and over again. I can't say the same for episodes 7 & 8.
i only like the Luke Skywalker storyline.
renegade cut just taught me how to avoid getting a ticket
The More You Know
did nitpickers forget the part where the tantive iv was literally shooting back at the star destroyer
a diplomatic mission to alderaan, suuuuuuuure
DrBZR1 what would you do if fired upon?
it'd be the same thing that would happen if an armed diplomat was traveling and cops tried to pull them over by shooting at them, that's part of their diplomatic power is safe passage.
DrBZR1 damn good point.
Wow. I wasn't even aware this was a thing.
Same here, i think the bigger issue with Rogue One's ending was how Vader fought more sluggish a short while after in his duel against Obi Wan. And i always just put that down to Vader taking it easy on Kenobi, seeing how old he was at that point.
Shir Deutch neither was u. People need to just stop.
This is, almost, my exact same thoughts on the matter. It always made sense to me that she would feign innocence despite knowing she had been caught in the act, sort of. I never put it in the real life perspective you did (great job on that by the way) I always saw it through canonical lenses. Even before Rogue One it made sense she would feign innocence. Leia knows what The Empire are like. They are undemocratic (the Senate was just a puppet Senate. The Emperor said jump, they jumped), but if they can't prove Leia was guilty it would have been a PR nightmare for the Emperor "ex-senators daughter imprisoned and interrogated despite being innocent". That's not something the empire would have been able to keep quiet, and would generate sympathy for the Rebel Alliance.
I just figured Leia was lying to Vader to keep him distracted so those two droids with the critical plans could get as far away as possible.
Can't wait for the movie where a group of Strormtroopers yell at an unarmed rebel "Stop Resisting"
It would be alien since the empire was very anti alien
Pretty sure it happened in Solo during, get this, the immigration scene.
Film expects audience not to take everything literally and at face value and show basic signs of artistic comprehension *D I N G*
Quite a reasonable parallel to explain the scene.
While there's always a power imbalance between an officer and a citizen, my interactions with constables here in Canada always seemed more amicable than those I saw portrayed in the primarily American media I consume. For years I wrote it off as a trope in fiction, a device to elevate drama. I still try to at times, because I've always hated the way that idea plays into negative stereotypes about the US, but the news is convincing me otherwise.
The police's purpose is to maintain the status quo. If you just have a minor road infraction, you don't threaten the status quo, so if you're polite with them, so will they be with you.
However, try talking to a police while being identified as a participant to a protest... you'll see how unhuman they are ready to be. Intimidation, lies, outright threats and insults even if you're being pacific.
And I live in Québec, Canada.
My personal experience with police on the job in the U.S. is limited, but nearly split. When I was a new driver, a cop lied about my speed, and I knew my parents wouldn't believe me, so I just paid the ticket, trying to hide it from them. One time had a patrol car follow me a few blocks, turn off, then a second one pulled behind me and followed for another few blocks, then a third...guess it took them a while to figure out I wasn't the droid they were looking for. The other times have been mostly cordial, lights out etc. Got a flat tire on a highway in the country, and was having trouble with one of the lug nuts. A state trooper pulls up, does a full walk around and is gruffly asking me questions, then seemed to relax a bit when I told him I was about to call a tow truck. I expected he'd just take off, but he stayed and helped get the spare on. Was coming home late at night and almost ran into a downed light pole. Figured I should stay put with hazards on until cops came, just to make sure nobody else ran into it. The first two cops were nice enough, but without even examining the scene, started trying to trick me into a confession. I had to repeat things several times, and even pointed out that my car would have at least some visible damage if I plowed into a pole. Also pointed out the broken side mirror laying not too far from the pole. I wasn't going to say it, but it would be amazing foresight of me to bring along a broken side mirror to plant as evidence just in case I one day decided to take out my aggression on a light fixture. Then again, if that light had assaulted my girlfriend and gotten away with it for years, taunting me relentlessly every day as I drove past, I might be driven to end it's existence.
Off duty, I've had several freely admit the quotas, and some of the stuff they did to get those seems pretty shady.
I've heard horror stories about corrupt cops, but don't have personal experience there.
@@paulwence648 I've had similar split experiences. In one case the cop let me go with a warning and in another, the cop lied about what I said to him during the traffic stop. It really angered me because I went to court to reduce the fine not argue against the ticket. During the traffic stop, I had followed Renegade's advice. I never admitted to the violation during the stop nor did I ever try to justify my behavior. When we got to court, however, the cop claimed I admitted to the crime and said I justified the violation because "I was in a hurry." I did get a reduced fine, but I never forgot that the cop lied about the interaction . . . and lied unnecessarily, since I did not go there to "fight" the ticket.
The dialogue does not seem strange at all. She is denying it, that is what she should do. It is what any politician would do.
As melodramatic as it is, I still love that scene where Vader goes all Dynasty Warriors on the rebels. I feel kinda bad for saying that, but they finally made Vader scary again.
I've always read the scene this way. She obviously has the plans, she stashed them in R2 and sent a message to Obi-Wan. Of course she's lying. The next step after admitting you have the plans is to tell Vader where they are. She's stalling so that Obi-Wan can get the plans and come to the rescue.
I hate that we're at the stage where we have to clarify this. This video has some overlap with my current dissertation. Great video.
Thanks!
Perhaps I’m missing something, but isn’t it simply the case that there are a lot of blockade runners and this isn’t necessarily immediately after rogue one?
The thing that surprised me about the reaction to "Rogue One" is to find that anyone ever thought that Leia's denials were credible.
She killed a stormtrooper. Her men killed plenty more. She seems to have a lot of armed men for a diplomatic ship on a mercy mission. I suppose one could say that these were supposed to be her security detail and not rebel troops. But come on. Hire a bunch of guys to do security. See how easily they can be ordered to kill U.S. Army troops even if it appears that one could get away with it which is not the case here. I suppose that some might object that those Rebel troops were Alderaan security people. That won't help you. The security of a Vermont Senator who is also the daughter of the governor of Vermont is not going to open fire on the U.S. Army. They are going to comply. Well unless they really are hostile enough to the U.S. government to offer armed resistance. And it is worse that that. It not just that some of Leia's men fought. It appears that all of them did or at least the vast majority. That alone strongly suggests that they were also part of a some sort of pre-exising conspiracy.
Those resisting tyranny in the real world often deny involvement even if it is not credible. Every second arguing innocence is a second not talking about location of the Death Star plans and the location of the Rebel base.
In the novelization of Rogue One, it tells a bit more of what happened after the credits rolled, which explains that after the Tantive IV went into hyperspace in the direction of Yavin 4 they had run out of fuel and therefore had to travel the rest of the way on their sublight engines, in doing so they came out of lightspeed close to the planet of Tatooine which is the starting place of a New Hope whilst this is happening Captain Antilles continues to write his personal diary stating that the Empire has set a bounty on a Corellian Corvette matching the description of the Tantive IV. Meanwhile, the Devastator, Darth Vader's Star Destroyer, came out of hyperspace near Tatooine as this was a possible destination along the Rebels last known trajectory, which takes us into a New Hope, this explains the conversation between Leia and Vader and how Leia is 'playing' innocent.
"No surprise here, the troops with the full body armor... win" Spit my drink out laughing at that one. Good job.
Why would anyone with more than two brain cells to rub together think it's a plot hole? 1) Vader in Rogue One never witnesses Leia do anything--Leia only shows up in literally the last shot. 2) Originally, before Rogue One was made, the audience had already seen Leia give Artoo the plans, so the audience knows she's guilty, what did they think she was doing when interacting with Vader? "Oh, she must NOT be part of the rebellion!"? The hell? How in the world do these people remember to breathe?
Now explain Captain Antilles' response. It makes no sense because Darth Vader already knows the ship.
Aaron Bourque well, to use his police officer analogy, the scene now feels like it plays out this way: in the aftermath of a massive heist that ended in a shootout between police officers and the criminals, one officer spots the getaway car and chases it down. The officer and those in the car fire several shots at each other before the police finally stop the car. The officer, who has been repeatedly shot at by those in this car, then gets up, walks over to the car, shoots the people who shot at him, and asks the driver "Do you know why I pulled you over today?" As one of the passengers hides the stolen goods, the driver says "no officer, I have no idea."
The logic just doesn't quite work there, no matter how you look at it. Before, we could assume that Leia was flying along a fairly unassuming route, that she was smuggling rebels and their stolen plans on a normal voyage, so as to not draw suspicion. We could assume that Vader learned her ship was the one carrying the plans indirectly, so it would make sense for her to claim total ignorance and that Vader's attack and search was unwarranted.
I never had a problem with the scene. I feel it fits with Leia’s character. But your explanation made it make even more sense to me.
Did the ending make sense? More or less yes but I also want to tell you about the police for half the video. 😂
Welcome to Renegade Cut.
Now I imagine a completely drunk Leia that looks at Vader and asks "What's the officer, problem?"
You know something is wrong when someone needs to make an 11 minute video explaining this. That being said, it was a very entertaining and informative video so I guess the universe does give as much as it takes after all.
Thank you for informing and entertaining us. You're a smart person and I'm happy to have found your channel. Keep being you; we all look forward to enjoying your presence online :-)
The only real discrepancy is Vader says several transmissions where "Beamed" to "This" Ship. When in the film it was beamed to the Raddus, downloaded to a portable memory device and brought aboard the Tantive IV by Rebel Troopers with Vader hot on their heels. Though Vader could have been generalizing or mixing things in his annoyance. The point was he got her red handed and there was nothing she could say that was going to get her out of this. It doesn't really bother me, as I generalize myself and to be honest the beamed part made more sense when it was presented in the Legends book Rebel Dawn when they actually beamed the plans from Toprawa (That book's version of Scarif) to the Tantive IV so some of the book fans are probably a bit salty.
That's a common interrogation tactic though, you claim a lie as a known fact to either get them to stumble and correct you or lull them into a false sense of security.
I always thought Leia was lying to Vader at the beginning of HOPE.
She is.
While I'm on board with the explanation given here, it's my belief that it's actually far, FAR simpler to explain. Everyone's assumption here, is that Leiah knows that Vader watched them leave...but exactly what evidence is given that she knew Vader was hot on their heels at Scarif? She was presumably on the command deck at the time, and almost no one in Vader's murder hall actually lived to tell the tale. There's no reason to believe that she would have known Vader was there, and therefore...would not necessarily be apt to concede to his accusations.
Furthermore, we aren't given a time reference as far as how long it takes Vader to catch up to the Tantive IV. Even if it were 15 to 20 minutes, that's plenty enough time for one to reasonably argue that perhaps Vader had the wrong ship...which makes Leia's proclamation of innocence a viable avenue. Honestly, I never NEEDED it explained...as it seemed perfectly plausible, as the video points out.
Leia not knowing Vader had seen them depart--that's a point I hadn't considered (although I'd still argue that Leia would lie like a rug no matter what).
I think that in a New Hope they say the emperor had just closed the senate.
This is the first I've heard about this issue. We don't know how long Vader was in pursuit. Could have been moments, could have been weeks. His ship lost visual of Leia's so thats all that she need to say "It wasn't me". Simple as that.
The better theory is that it took at least hours and probably days. There was no way to track a ship through hyperspace at that time, so Vader would have had to tack back and forth from numerous different possible destinations--and Tantooine was known to be 'way out there. After having lost contact, he'd not even necessarily know if he'd found the same vessel. So he'd have to bluster a confession or a slip, if he could. Leia was right just to lie like her life depended on it.
There is a good fan cut her on TH-cam showing Vader as even having reported back to the emperor between the two scenes (and George Lucas himself commented that it was a well-done job).
I had a similar experience watching Episode IV after Episode III. Vader’s subtle framing as an apparent subordinate of Tarkin plays more strongly after seeing him turned in to Palpatine’s puppet. These unintentional bits of retroactive continuity can be great fun.
Just don't slip up when you get pulled over and tell the cops you're on a diplomatic mission to Alderaan. Take it from me, they will not be amused
Personally I though that it was explain that the Tantive IV isn't the only ship of it's kind so even if you see one, you can't easily say which one of the other blockade runner ships that exist in the galaxy it could be.
Redem10 Ships have transponders, and Vader was there when it escaped. Between the transponder, his eyes and force sense of the people on board, he would know which ship it was.
If Vader had not been there, it would have been vastly more believable, but it doesn't totally screw things up either.
Omg that shade on Cinemasins though! Excellent put down good sir!
I am guilty of said statement. You have logically argued against it. I stand corrected.
The empire--I mean the Army National Guard...
+1 Respec
Sure, that makes Leia's actions make sense (although it's the same reason before and after Rogue One), it doesn't explain Vader's actions. He totally would have been more aggressive if he had actually seen the ship getting away with the plans, not to mention that he says that the plans were beamed to the ship by Rebel spies. That's where the actual problem lies.
Vader's actions throughout the capture were calm and calculated because he wanted to get information about the rebel base
Being aggressive wasn't the way to do that
I feel like this channel is the anti youtuber review channel
It's called Disney doesn't know what they are doing.
"Let's compare a Star Destroyer boarding a cruiser to the real world equivelant. A police officer pulling over a car..."
Me: Seems legit
"...In America"
Me: 😂😂😂😂 Shots fired!
It didn't make sense why Vader went personally to get the plans. He could have just blown the ship up. The Empire was trying to destroy all evidence of the plans. They had no problem blowing up the Rebels during the battle of Scarif. They were willing to blow up their own planet to destroy the plans.
This is less of a Star Wars video and more of an explanation of how law enforcement works
Welcome to Renegade Cut. That's the show.
Great video as usual. Police quotas are a scary thing, it recently came to light that the Australian Victorian Police had faked 258 000 roadside breath tests over a 5 and half year period to reach quotas, the offending officers were usually in quieter areas with obviously unrealistic quotas. It works out to about a 1.5 percent of the total tests, and no civilians were getting fined as a result of it, but it's still an incredibly troubling concept.
Isn't it sort of the inevitable result of a capitalist culture encroaching into the public sector?
Yeah, the idea that every public service should be subject to free market practices is cancerous to the quality of those services. Police in The Netherlands and Belgium aren't so extreme as to find excuses for a search or arrest, but they do try to reach quotas. And other public services have suffered too, such as public transport and the mail. Public services are privatized with the promise of better service and lower prices, all the while attaining only the reverse. But capitalism rules supreme right? (fyi, I don't think capitalism should go, but I do believe in checks and balances, and common sense). Anyway, it's getting off topic ;)
Leia wasn't present for "The Vadering" so she doesn't know that he saw the ship escaping. She was back in her room so why not pull the "I didn't drink at the party" kind of line kids tell their parents.
Well Leia isn’t about to admit they have the plans. I mean we’d all play dumb. Plans? Us? Nah not us mate.
Ah, this must be one of Renegade Cut's "I promised my audience I'd discuss this movie but damn do I ever feel the burning need to discuss this important political/social issue instead"-videos.
Seriously though, great vid.
I did not promise my audience I would discuss this movie, and ALL my videos are about politics, social issues and philosophy. It is the PREMISE of this show.
Do we really need a video to explain Leia's little white lie, she isn't going to admit anything. Even after drugging her Vader still gets barely anything from her. No explanation necessary, it all makes sense.
Rogue One is the ONLY good Disney era Star Wars movie that doesn't copy another movie (like Force Awakens) and isn't TERRIBLE like Last Jedi. Solo is just so so.
Not to mention how Leia no longer was in possession of the plans, she had handed them over to R2D2. So it's perfectly feasible that she thought she could get away with it since Vader had no proof. Also, the longer she kept arguing with Vader, the greater chance R2D2 had to get away.
Something everyone seems to ignore is that there are more plot contrivances within ANH itself. Why did the Tantive IV resist and shoot back if they expected to be able to play the "diplomatic mission" card? Why did the imperial officer bother to save a single energy blast simply because they couldn't read any life signs in the escape pod? Did the energy come out of the officer's personal allowance? Had the officer never seen or heard of droids before? Why is the Empire so obsessed with getting the plans back? They don't have copies? What if the rebels have already copied and transmitted the plans to all their other ships and bases (which is what I would've done), what would "getting the plans back" accomplish then?
If you read "from a certain point of view" the short story of the captain explains how the ship is a consulars ship and they get away fast leaking a trail because of the bad warp drive. And princess Leia having special permissions was trying to play innocent as if not knowing with they docked her ship. (She didn't know that the warp trail was leaking) so she was trying her best to play dumb. Trying to tell lord Vader that she was on a diplomatic mission (which the original mission was to go to tatooine) but the empire had a code red for all corvets which allows for even senators like her to be boarded. The empire was tracking their ship and she didn't know, and they thought for a while the empire was not tracking.
This episode was very real for 2018.
That’s not the problem I had between the two movies. What I was wondering was how the Empire found and or caught up to the rebels so quickly? How did they know where they were going?
Huh, I always figured she was bluffing for self-preservation even before Rogue One was released. Wondering if the people claiming it doesn't make sense truly doesn't understand the concept of unreliable narrators and characters bluffing or if they're pretending to be outraged for clicks and likes
I never thought that the opening scene of A New Hope happened right after the events of Rogue One. I always assumed that the Tantive was running for some period of time before Darth Vader caught up to them. They could have been playing cat and mouse for days or even weeks before we see that scene. I never thought these scenes had problems......
But great overview of how Cops routinely break your civil rights......
the movie is crap regardless of the scene...
The ending was the only problem I had with Rogue One.
Even if it's more of a traffic stop situation, Vader literally saw the ship. He stood at the door as it escaped an ongoing military engagement.
I would find it much more believable if Vader wasn't there in person witnessing the hand off of the data card, but that's really my biggest gripe with it. It would put more uncertainty onto whether he knew for sure this was the ship he was sent to find (how much time really passed)?
It's just awkwardly stitched together because originally Vader was NOT supposed to be there in Rogue One, but someone decided he "needed to max his high score", as a last minute addition.
His "transmission" dialogue also seems out of place since it was hand delivered to the ship as he cut people down, not an intercepted transmission.
Rogue One ending was pointless: now we need a sequel...
Why?
Because at the end of Rogue one, Leias Tantive IV enters hyperspace.... which means she got away. Now we need a sequel to explain how Vader knew to go to Tatooine and how he was able to catch up with her in sufficient enough time after learning about her destination... the empire can't track through hyperspace without placing a tracking device: which was not done in Rogue One.
All the people who spent god knows how long nitpicking rogue one finally got the Star Wars they wanted. And I hope 'the book of boba fett' was worth it because I never want to be reminded of things I know existed in clone wars ever again.
I mean TECHNICALLY speaking she was on a diplomatic mission. She was sent to find obi wan kenobi for the rebellion.
True, but that doesn't explain why Vader doesn't just shout 'Bitch I just saw you run off with the plans! Do you want me to go and get the bodies of all those rebels I killed'
Doesn't anyone else find it hilarious that a movie, made to explain something that needed no explanation to begin with (how the rebels stole the plans), ends up creating a "plot hole" that requires its own extra explanation?
maybe i missed something but it seemed strange to me that the tantive iv jumps to hyperspace and then supposedly a few minutes later they have been found and attacked. Last Jedi shows thats hyperspace tracking a brand new technology to the star wars canon, so how is it that vader followed the rebels so quickly?
Vader probably did not catch up with her right away. The Imperials may have immediately put out a report for anyone who sees the ship to report it's location. And someone probably did, so Vader would have gone to the sector where the sighting had been reported and found her ship that way. It might not have even happened right away after the end of Rogue One (his finding her ship). Also, hers might not have been the only ship of its type. It may have taken awhile to locate her.
Actually, it took several hours before they arrived at Tatooine. Vader's ship had followed them, based on their last known trajectory.
Vader: "You got a broken taillight, your highness."
Leia: "I didn't do nothin!"
Vader: "Do I spell weed?"
Leia: "I've got diplomatic immunity."
Vader: "It's just been revoked!"
I've never been pulled over, and this is something I needed to know. o_o
Actually, I DID/DO have a problem with the Rogue One/A New Hope discrepancies: George Lucas' original narrative plot, since 1976's novelization, was that Princess Leia secretly obtained the plans in a remote part of the galaxy from another Rebel cell, and, while in the process of downloading the transmission, was caught in orbit by Vader's Star Destroyer, in an Empire-deemed "illegal part of space", then her ship quickly went in to hyperspace, leaving the other Rebel party to be attacked, ultimately killing themselves before they could be apprehended and questioned...Princess Leia was the youngest Senator of The Imperial Senate, and her Father's starship, The Tantive IV was a consular ship used on many diplomatic/"mercy missions"...Princess Leia is referenced in the Star Wars Radio Drama of A New Hope as, "The Angel of Mercy in The Galaxy". She was trying to use her good name and standing to protect herself and her crew, but Vader was suspicious of her and Alderaan for a while, so he wasn't having it. The truth is, Princess Leia was NEVER supposed to witness the Battle of Scarif...she was supposed to meet up w/ the victors from that battle, ensuring the "illusion" of her innocence...the writers of Rogue One screwed that up. Renegade Cut -- you're trying to explain away a (rather significant) narrative inconsistency...long-time 1st Gen Star Wars Fans knew it was a deviation from Lucas' original premise. Just as the appearance of the Death Star at Scarif was also a big no-no: No one was to have seen the Death Star until the destruction of Alderaan and The Battle of Yavin. NO Rebel Fighters were supposed to see the battle station before, in any other battle, hence, Wedge's famous line: "Look at the SIZE of that thing!" It was not meant to fire multiple times in the film, either. Its (full power) test run, officially, was the destruction of Alderaan.
I feel like it makes more sense, Vader has no doubt when he says "You are a part of the rebel alliance and a traitor..." he knows she is a rebel and is pissed cause he wasn't able to get the plans the last time!
As Pablo Hidalgo said, even if they weren't at Scarif, they were shooting back at an imperial vessel, it's like shooting back at the cops while they're chasing you, so by those peoples' logic A New Hope doesn't make sense within its own story.
They talk in "A New Hope" about the dissolution of the Imperial Senate, it's just in a later scene.
I liked the ending of rogue one, it does a great job going into a new hope, just thought everything else in the film was pretty much dull and eh. It’s weird I can remember characters like jar jar blinks, or nute gunray for better or worse, but I don’t remember any of the characters names from rogue one, even for the character who’s vision impaired and has the best SW line ever, I could care less for any of the characters, so when they died didn’t mean that much to me. Garth Edwards is good with visuals, but when it comes to his characters in all of his films, they don’t give me any character investment. You can do a spin-off film with a group getting the Death Star plans, but I just didn’t care for the characters involved on said mission.
Wasn't the blind monk named Donnie Yen?
/j
Thank you for putting some sense into the skrubs who think otherwise
This just in: Complainy Fanboy has never had to lie to protect himself
Nitpickers must forget that Leia also gave nothing to Vader in his interrogation of her w/ the famous ominous droid.
Nitpickers must also forget that Leia *also* gave nothing to Tarkin, just a bullshit story about Dantooine to buy the Rebellion more time.
She was in the belly of the beast, knew they'd probably just execute her as soon as she was deemed unusable (which Luke confirmed), still stared them both down, watched her gawddamned planet blow up, and *kept* resisting. OF COURSE she didn't just flip the instant Vader boarded her ship, ffs.
'What plans? What ship? What battle?'
I don't get why people would think the dialogue doesn't make sense any more post Rogue One. Who in their right mind would admit to being a "traitor" while in handcuffs and surrounded by space Nazis? And saying that Leia really wasn't supposed to know that she was carrying something illegal and important doesn't make any sense at all... after all:
"I have placed information vital to the survival of the Rebellion into the memory systems of this R2 unit. " is part of her message to Obi Wan which she recorded herself right after uploading the data into R2. So ... err?
Rogue One is by no means a perfect movie, but that part seems to be the least of its problems. What actually ruined the ending was that horrifying Leia CGI-puppet they used. Talk about creepy stuff .... Just as bad as Peter Cushing's re-animated corpse. Why couldn't they simply have used the actor that stood in for him on set? With a bit of make-up work, that guy would've made an excellent Tarkin, all on his own and without any of that uncanny-valley shit ... :/
Just as I agree with you on the point people are making too much of this one sentence which in light of who she is talking to makes sense. Deny, Deny, Deny is a common defense, You made a big deal of the timeline but It would make sense that it took Hours if not days maybe weeks to track down the Tantive IV for as of now we do not have any evidence of a tracker. For if your running from the Empire you would make multiple Jumps to hide your track.
Also if you think about it, even if she knew the senate was dissolved, feigning ignorance is in her best interest because of they do anything to her and it gets out (note they didn't immediately kill her for lying and shit), people will be PISSED at the injustice and more rebels will appear.
My take on this since 1977 (I'm 59) is that the initial battle is a way to draw us into the story. The only way running from Vader makes sense is that Leia already knows the government's been dismantled. She becomes a political prisoner and has to counter the charges of treason and espionage on that basis.
This video went in a direction I wasn't expecting. Neat! Thanks for the episode!
How is this a retcon? We see Leia putting the disk into R2 in A New Hope. She already knew she was caught red-handed. 🤷
Do people actually consider this a plot hole? Lmao it’s obvious she’s only lying to Vader, do they expect her to be like “yes I have the plans, take them execute me and enslave the galaxy” ?
Wait...
People ACTUALLY were complaining that Leia lying through her teeth was a PLOTHOLE?
...Do they not know ANYTHING about character? Force Almighty, she's a human being not a genie -- she's not bound by some magical leash that makes her unable to speak an untruth. LYING is a THING!
This is the same way I saw it as well. You play dumb to oversimplify it... I think the people that don't get that are the same fans that like the Last Jedi...... just joking people.
So... per TLJ you couldn't (but only then could) track ships thru hyperspace. How did Vader know where to go? I haven't finished the video yet. This is a expectation comment. (SW fans love expectations)
Edit: i stand by my comment. Hated Rogue 1 for its predictability and linear train ride towards doom where all they had to do qas make me like one character that wasnt a K7SO
Generally speaking, all that matters is the audience's reaction. If the audience feels something is wrong, then something is wrong, no matter how you justify it. Of course there's also the matter of the intended audience, if a film is made for people who enjoy a genre, when a lot of people says the film is bad because it's a bad genre their criticism isn't really valid. But Rogue One is a blockbuster. Its intended audience is everybody who enjoy this type of movie, including the people who loved the first SW movie. Now to be fair, I don't know how many people felt that dissonance when watching Rogue One (before youtube started complaining) so maybe it wasn't in fact a problem on viewing. But it did feel weird to me from the start.
And while I agree with your general point about plot-holes (although because something is not a plot-hole doesn't mean it's not bad), A New Hope has existed for 40 years. Everybody's and their mother has already internalized the first scene and built a solid "headcanon" on it; Ockham's razor: If she says they're not a rebel, there probably isn't absolute proof that she is which is why she choose denial. There are other possibilities of course, hence why it's not a plot hole, but this is the most obvious one.
I've never ever seen a single person before Rogue One come up with the theory "they both know he has undeniable proof this is a rebel ship, but she chose to play dumb". You can't contradict 40 years of interpretations and then come and complain when people feel weird about it.
The problem with the ending of Rogue One is not that it creates a plot hole, it's that it makes Leia's actions and lie very stupid. Yes, you don't admit guilt when a cop pulls over, but you also don't fabricate a falsifiable lie either. That is just as bad.
Also, why was she even at the battle of Scarif? If tasked to get Obi Wan, why wait in a battle and risk being destroyed? When she did end up unexpectedly with the plans, why continue to Tatooine? The new plan should have been to get them to safety first.
Finally, there's no reason to think the Empire could have tracked her except by following her last trajectory, they didn't know about this ahead of time (according to Rogue One). So Leia flew straight to Tatooine and hung around there long enough to be followed?
To be honest, I don't even know exactly what the incongruity is supposed to be between the two movies. Leia was already lying in 1977 - she knew she had had the plans, she knew what had happened to them, she certainly knew she was a Rebel, and she knew she was not on a diplomatic mission, These were all lies just based on the information we had from the first movie, decades before Rogue One.
The Empire act according to their absolute confidence that Leia knows the whereabouts of the plans, and the location of the Rebels. Again, Rogue One changed nothing. Now as then, Leia is lying, the Empire knows it, and both parties are acting accordingly.
I think the only fishy thing about it is the timing, but everything you said essentially rings true. The only thing Leia didn't do was demand representation of some kind (fat load of good that would've done, and we don't know if that right is recognized by the Empire in canon, though it technically was recognized by the Republic)
A neat thought is that Leia, with her latent Force sensitivity, was trying to subconsciously mind-trick Vader when she was denying her involvement and Vader was very slightly susceptible to this influence given her strength and/or their familial connection. Most of the time (at least in EU), he'd just straight kill a Senator if they were suspected of wrong-doing.
Rebel lives matter. One like in solidarity for this young Rebel who was stopped and arrested by the space police for no reason.
I was never one of the people who complained about this. When I went and saw rogue one my only issue was that characters were barely characters, I didn't remember or care about most of them, in fact the character I was rooting for the most was actually director Krennic. So yeah, Take that.
Yep, gonna have to share this one too. It sure is nice having youtubers who create actually insightful content.
Glad you liked it.
Wait, people think this is a plothole? Wtf, this is pretty much how I assumed it went even before Rogue One came out. I mean OBVIOUSLY the rebels knew they were busted the whole time, they literally fought back with their blasters and everything.
I think the explanation, which was not necessary imo, would have been obvious. Who needed to be told this?? 😂
I love that you did, just saying. It's always amazing to me how ignorant or oblivious some people really are.
I accidentally came by this video when scrolling down to Leon's older videos--without even looking at the thumbnail. I thought this would be relevant to this moment of 2020, so here's my comment for the algorithm.
But how did Vaders ship track Leia’s ship through hyperspace from Scariff to Tattoine if the first time anyone, including Leia saw hyperspace tracking was in the Last Jedi like 35 years later???