I am a USA native, living in the USA and my woodworking hobby accelerated vastly when I switched to metric. My comfort zone is in imperial, but my max performance is in metric. I find that machining workpieces to whole millimeter measurements then using hand tools to direct fit the parts without any measurement tools to be the most productive workflow for me. I can play devil's advocate on a few of the facts presented in the video. 1. Metric does have a measure equivalent to a foot, its 300mm. 2. 300mm has 7 whole number divisors 1-10 (1,2,3,4,5,6,10) 3. 12 inches has only 5 whole number divisors 1-10 (1,2,3,4,6) 4. 3-4-5 method for finding right angles is base on a ratio and works in any units. 5. Imperial measuring tools have 3 bases. 12 base above an inch; Below 1 inch the divisor is a halving of the previous divisor 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, 1/32 etc.; Below 1/64th or 1/128th of an inch people often switch to thousandths or "thou" which is 10 based. 6. Metric has a single base of 10 at every scale.
Great points. I find that those who argue for imperial usually don't understand that metric requires you to think in a different way and relearn one's habits -- rather than import all the imperial habits and try to apply them to metric units.
I read a comment that really struck me -- someone was asking why anyone would want to convert miles to feet in real life if they are not an engineer. As a metric person, I routinely switch to meters when talking about anything less than a full kilometer. Much preferable to either fractions or decimals.
1. No ONE works in units of measure of 300mm. "Oh we have 4 units of measure of 300mm" Smh! Sorry but no, no one does this. They work in units of 100 for metric (or units of 10). So IF there is an equivalent, it is the meter and that would be 100cm ... which is still not the same as that is a larger unit of measure compared to the foot. I suspect you really meant 100cm and not 300mm anyway, by glancing down at your number two, which 2. Is based on your flawed number one answer. Meaning this answer is also flawed. Anyone can play around with numbers and come up with bigger whole division numbers. (ie 2 feet has8 whole number divisions of 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 16, and 24) So I am not seeing your point here. Again you are just playing around with numbers and maths which anyone can do. 2a. Besides you gave 7 whole number divisors for 10 ... not 300mm. 300 has 18 whole divisors. So way wrong. 3. WRONG. 12 has 6 whole numbers, not 5. (1, 2, 3, 4, 6, and 12) 4. Uhm NO, 3, 4, and 5 do NOT work for any unit of measure. 3+4+5 = 12 for a reason. It is a part of the right angle and 1/4 of a complete circle, just as 12 is 1/5 of 60. It is a fundamental of a base 60 system, which is part of 360. It is degrees ... and metric is not degrees as metric is a base 10 system, not a base 12 / 60 system that degrees and radians are. Many ancient cultures used a base 12 / 60 system and were able to perform complex maths because of that, such as trig and calculus, etc. As stated in this video, if 3, 4 and 5 is a base on a ratio and works in any units, then go ahead and divide 3 from your base 10 metric system and give me the answer. It is not some easy whole number as a result and therefor does NOT work, as it is not simplified like it is with a base 12 / 60 system. Instead it is 3.33333 continuous and never ends. How is that working if it never ends? 5. Imperial has TWO bases. Base 12 and base 16. Base 12 for the foot, as there are 12 inches in a foot. And base 16 for the inch. A base 12 is also a base 60 system. Just like a base 16 is also a part of a base 32 as well as base 64 system. But just because a base system, can also be a part of another base system, does not equate to that is another base system being used. Really the two base systems used is base 12 and base 64, but it is simplified to the base 12 and base 16. 5a. Thousands is decimal system, not metric. Every system has a placement of decimals including imperial, metric, binary, hex, etc. It is simply maths. 6. I guess you kind of missed your own thousands point you made in your point 5. As you contradict yourself. While yes metric has a single base 10 at every scale, it also has a base 100, base thousands, etc, etc. It just keeps going. Maths clearly is not your thing mate.
The imperial markings on a ruler make a lot of sense. It is so easy to register with your eyes. That alone has me convinced. That and the golden ratio.
My dad tells a story about engineering a hydro power plant where the engineers used metric. The program manager demanded all measures be imperial. The engineers then converted meters per hour to furlongs per fortnight. I use imperial for woodworking because all of my tools are in that system and lumber is sold by the board foot. It’s difficult to use fractions on a calculator, but I have no trouble using pencil and paper. I never use math if I don’t have to, it’s much easier and more accurate to use geometry. I refuse to use a combination metric/imperial tri-square, use one or the other not a combination. NASA crashes rockets that way! I’ve noticed problems with many of the newer tools and fasteners in the advertised imperial sizes. They seem to be roughly converted from metric and they don’t fit as snugly as they should.
I had absolutely no idea about all that stuff you broke down about Imperial. I'm comfortable in either system and literally have measuring devices for both. I'd never considered that such a perspective like that existed. Thanks for sharing!
I think it’s not 12 factors/ratios but 2, that’s why using 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, 1/32, 1/64, 1/128 and so on …. To be accurate and precise you go small and tiny, so it’s more easy to use metric (using 1/10, 1/100, 1/1000……) rather than imperial which in some points it uses the same fraction like metric, People who used to use a measuring system (no matter which one ) have the feelings and sense of its units so they prefer what they used
The huge advantage of the metric system is you avoid all those fractions! I don't have to work out if I have a 3/4" piece of wood and I need to take off an 18/64th of an inch, then work out how much thinner my wood is after that - nightmare. I too was brought up using imperial but changed to metric for the reason I've just given. BTW, do you also use those other imperial measurements - chain, rod, pole and perch?
Those units are impractical for woodworking in a shop because they're really large-a chain is 66 feet and a rod/pole/perch is 16.5. Regardless yeah they're not really used by anyone anymore because the imperial systems are such a mess that even imperial users are intimidated by it.
You make a very cogent argument for standard measuring. I never looked at it like that but have always leaned towards standard vs metric. Thanks for the great explanation.
The problem is only that in some countries they mix units in metric, which is almost as confusing as the weird Imperial system. If for woodworking, or building, you use 1 measurement base unit and one only, its simple. Use Millimetres. Yes, you will get big numbers, but it is precise, and you will not get fractions. So a door is not 2 metres and 106mm high, the door is 2106mm high, simple. Don't mix units. If you want to get a midpoint, then its 1052mm. Simple Math, no fractions of an inch, no calculating 2 separate measurements..
i love that you dont treat people like their dumb as ive some do i get what your telling me if i can ask my uncle if i dont get it (craftsman) im brain injured and have started learning woodworking etc and like it even though i have probs getting my words out orally or written (relearnt how to talk etc) your channel helped me to start to improve myself so thanks and keep the vids coming
So glad we have helped your woodworking. People get way too excited over things that dont really matter...imperial vs metric is one of those things that just doesn't matter
It is awesome how your history took you to pick units depending on your activities. Here in Peru we use metric system for almost everything in woodworking. Even new hardware rarely comes in imperial anymore. But consider we sometimes use the "half centimeter" or "half milimeter" when measuring.The only thing that has not changed is the way we calculate wood volume. We always calculate in square feet when buying wood. It's weird haha.
One problem with imperial is that it was never a standardised system. For example a British inch was slightly different to an American inch. A pint and a gallon was massively different which caused a lot of confusion. Some attempt was made many years ago by standardising the inch - as 25.4 mm! So the imperial system is now actually defined in metric. Another big problem for many of us outside the US is that a TH-camr might say “take a piece of 3 by 2” - outside the US you might not be able to buy a length of 3 x 2, you couldn’t buy anything 1/2 inch thick - or a sheet of 3/4” stock. I was brought up in the UK and I’m very familiar and comfortable with imperial, but the fact all of the suppliers and all of the stockist use metric and *only* metric (by law) does make life difficult when taking inspiration from someone who will only talk imperial. Don’t even get me started on cookery channels with their half pints (British or American half pints? Or someone else’s? ) or Fahrenheit (haven’t seen a thermometer or heat control with Fahrenheit on it for decades….). I don’t mind what people prefer to use, but it would be nice if content makers realised that they may have viewers from all over the World and could be a bit flexible about it.
Well put point Rob, we in the UK had just converted to the metric system in my later years of high school, talk about confused, but when buying timber I use imperial then when building I use metric. Great topics keep em coming.
Love the tongue in check true to life history and practicality. One thing I realized a few months ago is that the numbers or their spacing or how they are divide up doesn’t really matter in many cases. After the first cut we are just referencing of the existing already cut parts and the measuing devices become story sticks with marks on them for easy reference. I am a bit odd in that use which ever number system is handy. Without care or favoritism. I will say your points about 12 being easily divisible by factors of 2 and 3 is spot on. The 3,4,5 right triangle reference also spot on. Side note 3+4+5=12, is that important in the grand scheme? Not sure. The convenient different length line presentation for fractions of an inch is also very handy, excellent point as well. So what is important… making sawdust accurately so what’s left looks great. Thanks for all the fun insights.
Hi Rob I'm a retired builder in New Zealand at 52 only because I watch your channel religiously and thought I could do way better making quality furniture I was trained in both imperial and metric but find metric so much more accurate...still go to the timber store and confuse the young staff there when asking for 6x1 3/4.... love your work and have learned so much from you
See what the do if you ask for 23 board feet next time. Then say its easy to convert multiply by .679 then divide by a 32nd. Then give him a candy bar and have a good laugh
That was a very well explained video on both systems. It is a master lesson on fractions and there use. Appreciated the history of the imperial system and the way it was used. Outstanding video thanks for sharing. Take care. 👍🏻
@@RobCosmanWoodworking One quibble I have with it is that the example cabinet, f.ex, you've designed it around clean customary measures. If you'd worked natively in metric, you'd have likely designed it to be clean in mm or cm. I'm a linguistics nerd and whenever people complain about one language wrt another, they're inevitably using an expression that feels either natural or poetic in the source language but clumsier in the target language. They should rather look into things like "can I express what I want in this language/system" than "can I translate what's beautiful or clean in one system to be beautiful or clean in another", I think.
I like how you talked about that. I am working on becoming a luthier. I see a few people on here use metric. it's not the unit of measurement that inspires me it's the craftsmanship in the work. I am trying to save some money for a good plane. 😄
Hello from Australia. As you would know we use metric. However I use both. I’m only young yet I still use imperial when I need to. I’m glad my dad taught me while building houses. Even though I use metric 80% of the time. In regard to ‘feet’ as an intermediate measurement. We do have that. In cabinetry things are worked in 300mm 600mm 900mm and 1200mm. The caveat is that this breaks the rule somewhat of easy divisions. It’s not 1/3 (333.33mm) but rather 3/10 which sounds like an odd ratio but is so simple in my metric brain because it’s just a standard to build to. The 300/600 etc. would equate to (roughly) your 1/2/3/4 foot comparison. Love your work.
Excellent video Rob. One other thing I like about imperial is that subdividing a inch into 64ths is still a readable measurement on a rule whereas subdividing a centimentre past millimeters is impossible to read on a rule.
I converted from imperial to metric over 10 years ago primarily because it was frustrating to use dual units when using European hardware. I decided it was going to be either one or the other but not both. Initially, I had a lot of visualization issues but in relatively short order, metric became second nature (and I remember the 1970's debacle on the US feeble attempt to convert to metric). The biggest challenge I have is with router bits whose even metric equivalents in the US are made mostly of the rare element called unobtainium. I have no regrets in making the change. Whatever your preferred measurement system is, we should all be thankful that we are not using the cubit system of measurement. Steve
And yet: In the metric system one can use the number twelve with all its virtues. What is half of twelve (centimeters)? What is a third of twelve (centimeters)? You can create a right angle using 3, 4 and 5 in metric units as well. A foot is comparable to 30cm; just use two times a length of 30cm and you have something close enough to two feet, for all practical purposes in woodworking.
Love this! I'm a decent woodworker living in Australia, a metric country. I was taught woodwork by my brother who is a carpenter, in the building trade they loosely use a "metric foot" of 300mm. Very convenient making a six-by-two workbench (1800x600mm) or an eight-foot ceiling (2400mm). It's actually very close for purposes of estimation, and ultimately the proportions of a piece of fine woodwork will be the same.
I was introduced to inch measurement, when my parents bought construction timber. Two-by-two, two-by-four and so on... Nowadays I mostly use metric system in woodworking hobby. Hand drill bits here are all in inch measument. Also folded metal rulers, have both inch and centimeter scale. When felling trees, I occasionally measure the estimate height of a three with wooden stick method. I use amount of steps to estimate height in meters :-)
Like you Rob I grew up learning about feet, inches pounds and gallons, then Australia converted to metric about when I started high school. Now I have always been very comfortable with metric, until I started woodworking when again, like you I found making out which line on the ruler is 7 mm very difficult with my sixty plus year old eyes, doubly so because the metric rulers here have all the half mm marked too. Holy crap there's a lot of lines. So I found a ruler and tape measure which has both and use the imperial measurements because I can see them more easily. I have also recently bought By Hand and Eye, after becoming totally bamboozled by a design drawing using the whole number fractions idea. Had no idea what the keys meant. The book is indeed a great read.
Finally an argument for imperial that actually makes sense! Usually people only say they use it out of habit or because it feels better to them, but now I can at last understand why that might be ... Not that I will switch away from metric though :)
Some of it was irrelevant though. Like using the divider which can be done in any system. And he was unhappy that a two feet measurement didn't come out as a nice number in metric. Well, 600mm doesn't become a nice round imperial value either.
@@bobjeaniejoey Oh I have used imperial measurements, namely the foot which is still used by me for quick estimates because my father always used feet and inches. Then I multiply by three to convert it to decimeters. It was annoying when I discovered as a child that the foot wasn't ten inches. And even more annoyed as an adult when I finally discovered that the inch didn't divide into tenths either. No way in hell I want to deal with compound fractions in measurements. We also use square feet and acres informally, but that's it. Everything apart from these four units is metric. I can't estimate pounds or miles or ounces. What I've seen is the opposite of what you claim, it is the imperial fanatics that don't understand how Metric works. The complaints rarely make sense. Usually, they are approaching the problem using imperial methods when metric requires a different (and normally easier) approach. I don't know anybody who associates imperial with actual imperialists. Must be a very, very regional thing. //'mock and denigrate what is the superior form of measurement, the imperial system'// How do people say this with a straight face? //'Have you seen the video where some Scottish sounding guy'// Yes, and I wasn't impressed either. //'Imperial measurement is best for all units of everyday measurement in Mr. and Mrs. Everypersons' lives.'// Only because you grew up with them. I find the kilogram and liter highly intuitive myself. Especially convenient that one liter of water is one kilogram. And I only understand the kilometer for long distances. Likewise, Fahrenheit is gibberish to me.
@@bobjeaniejoey "Otherwise, metric is inferior to imperial. I can demonstrate one example after another after another after another."/// I am curious. What are these examples? My guess remains that you are trying to directly apply the imperial methods you know to metric units. And finding it clumsy as a result. You need to learn the metric way of doing things.
Hi Rob. Great video. Thank you. As a Canadian, I grew up with Imperial. I'm a lot older than you, LOL. But when we converted, I ended up being the teacher for the metric system for our work in the oilfield. Metric is actually easier for cement and frac volumes and the kgs used ; same for well control. But for house building, woodworking and machinist work, Imperial is the way to go. All my racing engines were worked to thousandths. Woodworking ratios ...... love it. As a new woodworker, my planes are bevel down with the exception of a couple of antique block planes.
you just hit the ball wrong with metric system its not only measurments its all things example 1 gallon of water weighs 8.33 pounds vs 1 liter water weighs exactly 1kg sow 1000 liters weighs 1000 kilograms whats a metric ton wich is the volume of 1 meter high 1meter long 1meter wide is actualy 1 qubic meter
I started a toolmaking apprenticeship at Ford UK in 1967, when we used the Imperial measuring system. We changed to metric a few years later, so I now still happily use both systems, but I _always_ use base ten regardless of the system I am using. Rob started to explain an advantage of base 12 with 'What's half of 12? 6. What's a quarter of 12? 3.' but conveniently stopped there before the next halving gave an inconvenient answer of 1.5 - er, sorry about that. I meant 1 and a ½. Another comment mentioned the math being easier with base ten, which has always been my primary argument for using it. It's so much easier to add decimal figures than fractions. The day it became clear that the world had gone mad was when Stumpy Nubs proudly demonstrated his new digital callipers that displayed fractions! I mean, what the heck?! They could only measure up to six inches, which is where you are more likely to need finer (smaller) measurements and greater accuracy. I am 73 years old now, and I am completely comfortable thinking in both systems, but always in base ten when I need to break down an inch, (25.4mm).
It may have been me who kicked it all off last time, but for the record, we had imperial at primary school until metrification. Metric during my aircraft apprenticeship in the RAF. And now as an old f4rt hobby woodworker I use both!
Interesting. As an American I secretly had an admiration for how much easier the math would be. Not enough to start using the metric system however... I would probably be chased off of a job site for using it. Never really thought much about the ratios. When you mentioned it I was like, "Yeah I guess I use 1:3 and 1:4 all the time."
Having recently moved to NZ and set up shop I've begrudgingly transitioned to my new metric identity, mm,, but seriously it's really what you're are comfortable with. As far as fractions of numbers in the metric system, I regularly work to .5mm. Yeah it's a bit of strain on the eyes but you get use to it. I still conceptualize in Imperial, layout centers in Imperial, square in Imperial, and layout jointer in Imperial. I guess my new identity is bi-measuremental. Does that make me new age?
@@HondoTrailside For you perhaps. For me, 16 3/16 is already hard to conceptualize, but I know 411/2 is 205.5 without any effort. Not to mention ten times easier when something a little more complicated makes you break out the calculator app.
@@rexsceleratorum1632 Interesting 411/2 is easy but half of 16 is 8 and half of 3/16 is 3/32 is hard? I mean no offence, I'm just curious where the difference really is. I think really it just comes down to not overthinking the division. Some would probably screw up 205.5 honestly. I also personally find it easy to understand 3/16 exactly but that is 4.7625 mm.
Really interesting stuff Rob, the golden ratio is very pleasing to the eye. Most Edwardian rooms are based on one side being 161% the size of the other.
Good points. I believe it boils down to what you can visualize in your minds eye. I can visualize a kilometer (yes , ...I am Canadian) I cannot visualize a mile. I can visualize a foot, I cannot visualize a meter. I have tried to use metric in the shop but it's like using a new language. I believe both have their merits.
Many Gen X who grew up here in Australia learnt metric in school and imperial measurements from their parents or grandparents. Being fluent in both is a nice skill to have.
Dear Mr. Cosan, I grew up with metric, nevertheless I see your point in imperial. If I can produce products which will fit the golden ratio and therefore please the eye, it is great and easy to do. I have a measurment with 1/2 mm lines and my eyesight hasn't improved over the years. It is a wild assumption that some woodworker are older with a lot of experience, not me, but can read there measurnents not only guessing. I have never understood the golden ratio because of not unterstanding a 12 System. I think learning imperial may help me a lot. Thanks for your input.
Hi Rob, as someone of 61 years from the UK, I was taught at school with a mixture of imperial and metric. When I left school the fine furniture company I worked for it was always imperial and as we made reproduction furniture it would probably have been crazy to have used metric. This followed me all the way until I started to make furniture more for the European market where they only used metric, culminating now where I instruct at my local college whereby the students have been brought up to only understand metric. I sometimes switch between the two depending on what I am measuring and like you say it really makes little difference they are just units to measure with. The UK is really a strange mix of the two probably pushed by our involvement with the European Union but metric is probably the way we will totally end up with, apart that is for road sign distances, speed and ordering drinks in a bar. I 100% agree with you over bevel down planes, I just cannot see any benefit to using low angle bevel up, bought one, tried it and will probably sell it as see no advantage. Weekender hobbyists most certainly think differently and if it works for them good luck and enjoy them. Two subjects that are bound to divide opinion.
I'm also Canadian and I've always used imperial but often thought that metric would make more sense in terms of not having to mess with fractions so much but your argument here about fractions being so helpful in creating understandable ratios has be pretty comfortable sticking with imperial.
So this is really interesting. There is a great Numberphile video from about a decade ago that I just re watched recently talking about a counting system using Base 12. The argument being for basic math, especially for kids learning math would be a lot easier because of the fractions you described. Imagine if the French changed the counting system instead of the measuring system. I first learned woodworking with my grandfather born in 1913, my parents were born in the late 40s and all my shop teachers from Highschool through college are about your age Rob. It wasn't till my first job that I was forced into metric. Now I can't go back and even in my personal woodworking I work in metric. But if you ask me how tall I am ill say I am 6'4" lol
I was taught base 12 maths at school when we had measurements in feet and inches and currency in pounds, shillings and pence. Believe me, multiplying and dividing basic numbers in base 12 is a lot more complicated than the decimal system we use now.
@@johnpearson230 just curious if you were taught the Dozenal system of counting too? What I am talking about adds 2 new numbers 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,dek,el(I can't make the symbols for these 2 new numbers on a keyboard). Basically if we had 6 fingers instead of 10 we might have never come up with counting with what we now call the decimal system.
@@deathsyth27 Yes, we used a and b - 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, a, b, 10. No idea why we were taught this and never used it since but I remember it was mind blowing as an 8 year old.
I'm the same, for anything requiring precision in woodworking, I go in mm even though the predominant measurements used in plans were feet and inches for most of my life. I'll often revert to inches/feet to get rough dimensions and figure out what lumber I'll need, but when it comes time to mark and cut, I go by my mm dimensions.
I'm french but I took the habit to design stuff (print layout, website) using a base 12 for his convenience to be divided by 2,3,4,6. So I found inches/feet very relevant in furniture making.
Oui mais c'est juste ridicule. Pour connaître un peu les américains, ils font la tête de cochon et refusent le système métrique parce qu'ils ne lont pas inventé. Ils n'ont aucun problème à s'imposer dans le monde et a imposer leur truc, eux.. Et leur rejet du système métrique est d'autant plus fort que les français l'ont inventé. Il est inutile de leur cirer les pompes quand ils ont cette attitude. On utilise une division et avec les chiffres décimaux éventuels on arrive a tout autant de précision que lon désire. Personne ne s'embête a faire des divisions au un tiers comme un point de départ de son travail. Et le système de base 10 peut faire des divisions au quart qui tombent juste, decimalement parlant. Et on peut diviser au cinquième (et tomber juste ) en métrique ce que le système imperial ne peut pas faire. Donc il n'y a même pas de gain absolu. Et dailleurs sur les petites distances, le système métrique a un autre avantage face au système imperial. Tu connais les subdivisions en dessous du pouce? Non. Car Personne ne les connais. Alors qu'en métrique tu a le millimètre. Le micron. Le nanomètre... La précision est aussi grande que l'on veut. Littéralement Le système métrique est supérieur sur toute la ligne. Il faut se moquer d'eux sur leur impérialisme (s'imposer aux autres sans jamais rien prendre en retour) ou alors on s'en sort plus...
I really wondered how ya'll did that up North. I was a machinist in Texas when it was talked-about going metric and the expense it would be to replace hand tools , redraw prints to avoid mistakes during conversion. Great video keep them coming
The issue here in the UK is that the vast majority of our available stock is listed in metric. I do find myself estimating sizes in imperial but when it comes to design, layout and cutting, I use metric. Great vid though. Love watching your channel.
As always Sir, a very insightful and interesting lesson by probably (and in my opinion) the best woodworker teacher on the internet. The goto for any advice in traditional skills. Thank you
All agreed Rob 👍. I was raised imperial and we converted in UK in the 70s. Metric is quicker and easier to divide by moving the decimal point, but much harder to visually the size. I think ill give Tolpins book a miss though, over here its £270 used! Wouldnt that buy me a Cosman saw? 😁
The bevel down really does make all the difference! I worked in archaeology until I retired. While dealing with prehistoric resources we always used metric. But my boss, who was an historic archaeologist by preference insisted on using feet and inches as opposed to meters and centimeters. In fact we also leaned on millimeters to avoid decimal fractions. I often wrote reports where measures and distances needed to be presented in both systems simultaneously. But I also did wood work, building archaeological screens for example. That and repairing and restoring an old house led to needing to use feet and inches. I had already discovered the joys of practical geometry in the field for mapping, laying out units, and overland navigation. In the shop suddenly both fractions - which I detested in grammar school, and geometry suddenly had vast new applications. And were immensely practical and even a genuine pleasure to use.
I agree that 12 based system is better in terms of integer divisions...but First, you can use decimal AND use the benefits of 12. Your board doesn't have to be 100 mm or 1000 mm, it can be 12mm or 120 mm and 1200 mm. Second, imperial is not base 12, it is crazy only inches to feet is 12 based. Not that relevant for woodworking though.
Excellent. Envied the ease with which two mm values could be added. As opposed to something like 3/32 and 15/64. Stuck with imperial because I always had used it and - more important - because all my tools are imperial. Now I have an even better reason. Thanks for your insight. When I buy a new wrench or other such tool I am very dubious about marking like 1”, 2.5 cm. I have found that the rounding coupled with manufacturing variance can sometimes cause problems for me. Your observation about dividers and geometry are spot on - and not just limited to woodworking. When my daughter took geometry 20 years ago, it turned out to be trigonometry - with rulers and measurement - as opposed to the Euclidean geometry of ratios, theorems, and proofs. Thanks again.
Interesting perspective. Personally, I always worked with imperial and had to convert to metric in my late teens (Quebec). Working in the aerospace industry, I always worked in imperial with decimals (thousands of inches) over a 40 year career. Now retired, I got more interested in woodworking and took on renovation projects. I initially started working with fractions, got frustrated and eventually evolved to metric for precision work. I figure I am about your age and the way I read the “fine print” of mm is that I estimate the actual based on where it is located on the scale…. Works for me! In the end, I am of the opinion that for us who had to adapt to a new measurement system, it comes down to preference and comfort. My 38 year old son is of course fully metric because this is what he learned.
Like you I was born in Canada prior to the introduction of the metric system and have been living in the U.S for the past 25 years. I use both systems. When doing carpentry I use the imperials system since the dimensions of materials like 2x4, 2x6, ..., and plywood are base on the inches. The same goes with building case goods. For CNC work I use the metric system. But for measuring long distances I use time. How far is it from Ottawa to Montréal? About two hours. :)
I was in my late teens when Australia converted to metric measurements. So I grew up with imperial and then as a young adult changed to metric, I have a total understanding of both systems and I actually use both systems in my woodwork and metalwork, I'll use which every best suits the project I'm doing and at times use both systems in the same project. I have no problem switching from one to the other.
As an engineer from Germany, I am obviously a big fan of the metric system. The consistency across all scales and the full compatibility with all the other units in physics is a big advantage and I used to get really frustrated when I had to use the imperial system for some reason. Now when I started woodworking, I really had to rethink a couple of things, that are done very differently than in engineering. Along with that, I discovered that the biggest advantage of the imperial system is it's apparent limitation. Like if I have to pick a screw size, I have M3, M4, M5, M6, M8, M10, M12 and so on to choose from. In that same spectrum, there are generally 1/8", 1/4", 1/2" and 1" and unless you want to optimize, it's pretty obvious which one to choose. I know, there are more sizes than that, but that would be my first step. Also when I need to choose a position for a hole set in from an edge, it's much easier to just go "is an inch ok?" and if not go to 3/4" instead of picking an arbitrary number of millimeters. The bottom line is, it really helps me get stuff done and not get bogged up in details. And I totally agree on the mathematical advantages. If only our whole number system had started with a base of 12, we wouldn't even have this discussion.
Nice video Rob! Being Australian (and a bit older than you, I too learnt both imperial and metric. But at school, we simply started using metric for everything and I haven't looked back. Happy with kilograms, kilometers, even kilojoules! But I still say I am six feet tall and have to think about what that is in centimeters ... I do all my woodworking in metric and don't really notice any issues, except when dealing with US or UK plans, videos etc. I agree with you though, just use what you are comfortable with. I love it when someone says 11 and 13 sixteenths! I do the math and think, well, that is pretty much 300 mil. We can all be happy ...
@@RobCosmanWoodworking Thanks Rob. Most of the ones I read (and nice to see another Aussie replying) seemed to not favour one over the other, but simply that people use what they are comfortable with. I lived in the UK for a while and I really struggled with miles and MPH. Had to really watch it to avoid speeding tickets!
Actually, a fascinating consideration that I had never thought about. I use both, the metric less occasionally than imperial. Great, thought provoking video, Rob.
Like someone already said, in some examples words are very misleading. For example, you say "Oh, its a lot easier for me to understand that it is 2 feet by 3 feet, as opposed to 610mm by 890mm.." which makes it seem that metric is always between some beautiful round numbers again. How about making that dresser to be 900mm by 600mm (or simply 90x60 centimeters, or 9x6 decimeters) and transferring that to imperial? What would it be? Just curious.. Found it.. Around 2.95276 Ft by 1.9685 Ft.. Really nice round number.. And we can go even further and transfer that into exotic sixteenths, quarters, sixty-fourths (have to chuckle here).. At the end of the day, you, me and everybody else can choose what they prefer, but there is no need to be misleading about it. Most of us following respect you for your work and craftsmanship which is outstanding in my eyes. There is no need for you to follow this path that leads nowhere with these kinds of videos. At least in my opinion. Take care and see ya on the next one.
It's good to see an acknowledgement that not all the world uses imperial. I mark out in metric and it's frustrating that so many useful layout tools are manufactured in the US and only come with imperial markings, even though the rest of the world uses metric, particularly as it reduces the potential market by more than 95% (yes, over 95% of the planet live outside the US). Ultimately though, unless you are making a piece to exact dimensions, most of the individual parts that make up an item of furniture are sized relative to each other and it's more accurate to set out a mortice using the tenon as a guide (or tenon using the mortice) than to use a rule in whatever measurement system.
Well, you make a valid point and I respect that. Now I am a bred born and corn fed Michigan lad. ( of 55 years of age) Back in the late 70's the US tried to convert to Metric and the schools tried to develop a level of teaching metric to kids... yeah it really didn't take. YET as I am a Wood Turner, I find that metric in the small, less than 50mm or 2 inches. Metric just works better. Now with the projects you rock out I too would use imperial. PLUS if you use imperial based hardware, you can never loose your 10mm socket, Just Sayin' 😉
I use both. Whichever is more convenient for the work at hand. Also, woodworking should rely on physical pieces, not a closest number. If board you use is not exactly 1-1/2” thick, 1/3 of that is not exactly 1/2”. But most likely you still use a 1/2” chisel for the mortise. Then trim the tenon to fit the 1/2” mortise which may not be perfectly 1/2” or 500 thousandths of an inch. At that point, which system to use does not matter, I can cut the mortise with a 12mm chisel and trim tenon to fit.
The handplane joke at the end took me for surprice. Great informative video. Im used to the metruc system much more than imperial but i ofthen use which ever fits the best for the job at hand. Woodworking is easier in imperial, just as my actual job as a web designer uses 12 collum grid also in desing
I’m totally on that same boat. It’s just harder for me to visualize what 986 mm is in my head but I know what roughly 2ft 3ft or 19” or 42”. Maybe it’s just cuz I’m used to it. But whenever I have a number in metric I always have to convert it to imperial so that I know roughly how long it actually is
I am American but have exclusively used the metric system for over 2 decades (Science teacher). All electronic devices are set to metric, etc.....EXCEPT in my workshop, and it's not because it is what I was used to, (I tried to convert there too, and have an abundance of metric starrett rules to prove it) it is because, as Rob states, there are some real practical advantages to using the natural divisions inherent in the imperial system. At the end of the day, I agree though, use what gets you in your shop and enjoying wood. 🙂
I’m in the UK where metric was adopted before I was born, so I’m used to it. The funny thing is that, while I believe people who work in imperial can use it exclusively, the same isn’t true for woodworkers here using metric. Chisels, planes, blades and many others tools are sized in inches, as is lots of wood - we shop in mm for small items, like trim, but inches (2x4s) for bigger bits. I find small measurements (calliper readings and a few centimetres) easier in metric, but perhaps only because I was never taught to calculate in fractions efficiently.
I prefer Imperial, but that's what I grew up with. I've tried Metric, and though the math is technically simpler, I find it is not natural and I think a lot harder than I do with Imperial. I do a lot of Imperial to Metric conversions since my wife is from Eastern Europe and she thinks in mm, cm and meters. She is pretty good with miles though since she learned to drive in the USA and cooks using Imperial measurements. As always, thanks for the videos and keep 'em coming. PS, I'm a bevel down guy as well!
I was brought up on metric but the older I get I’m leaning more towards imperial and I like your last comment on planes that will start a debate for sure.
Good stuff Coach, totally agree with your logic. I too prefer Imperial but had to adapt to metric for some situations, usually in European or Japanese tooling situations and set ups. Clearly, it’s good to be comfortable in both. Thx for the video
I think you are correct with the base 12 system. Why is the base 10 system used with most monetary system? Plus why did the likes of Australia then the UK change from base 12 monetary system to base 10?
Excellent comparison, and the right conclusion that using what you like and are comfortable with is right for you , no definitive right or wrong to either system. I am from the UK and only a year or so behind you in years , and as such , was fortunate to be brought up using both systems and comfortable with both and convert to both systems freely..I use mainly metric but still use imperial on a daily basis. miles, feet, inches ...both work for me. But things can get confusing for the younger generation on both systems....When I was an apprentice I had to deal with metric, imperial and British Standard Whitworth and AF for nuts and bolts..AF = Across Flats as I was taught, but BSW was the size of the actual bolt shaft and hole in the nut! crazy systems all of them, but when used to ,like anything else , becomes easy I suppose. Thanks for sharing and great insight.
Metric came in during my junior school years. I really struggled with £/shillings and pence so gravitated to metric as a result. I'll be practicing with imperial from now on. Thanks Rob.
Thanks Rob. I agree it won't change anyone's mind BUT I think you are right. Also, in some countries, the foot changed value when there was new kind with a new foot. Still giving value to the 12 based system. Curious what base system the Cubit was in. Also, I hate rulers that have more than 1/16'" listed. Anything finer than that is likely not measured by marked with a knife. Plus, at a 1/16" I can guestimate a 32nd pretty easily. I could even argue that don't need markings on a ruler beyond an eighth for reasons mentioned above. No, I don't have any strong feelings on the topic. Lol.
I was in my 3rd year apprenticeship electrician (Alberta) when metric came in. From high rise office towers to houses, all drawing measurements were metric down to cabinetry. If you used imperial you would end up with odd measurement numbers, but if you used the other edge of the tape would would end up with common measurements used across the trades/engineering drawings. All building codes were in metric. Within a few months time if you asked anybody on a job site about their preference they would say they would never go back to imperial for drawings, room floor and wall layouts, etc. Imperial is only use now by some as a 'drawing in the air with your hands' conceptualizing discussions. material take-off is so much easier in metric. Many of the young do not know how long a yard, foot, inch is. Deci and Deca units are not use except a very few industry sectors. Resistance is futile.
Nicely done, Rob. I grew up using imperial, as a building contractor the metric system is a bit cumbersome for the very reasons you laid out (subtle pun). For smaller scale woodworking projects such as dovetailed boxes, sure, metric works, but I mostly use imperial. When you used the example of 16-3/16" and said half, I immediately did 8-3/32", very simple and easy. Half the whole number, double the denominator= exactly half. The other interesting point is for precision, use a rule with 64ths if your eyes don't cross first, it's still a definitive mark vs. splitting millimeters. Okay, that was just for argument sake. I had a project once where the homeowner was a bit OCD, he set his CAD program to use Imperial and 64ths for his remodel project. Yeah, usually started and ended the day with a headache.
Great explanation Rob. Always wondered why I see other Canadian wood crafter working in imperial. I always thought that changed once a person crossed over the Rainbow and Ambassador bridges or the like. Like the door pulls on the dresser. 2A approved here on the south side of the boarder. JimE
I've never understood why people make such a fuss about Metric v Imperial. Growing up in England I was taught Imperial measurement then in 1971 when I just completed my 5yr Engineering Apprenticeship we went over to Metric. The change was instant and we just had to get on with it, but as the Metric system is all based on ten it wasn't a problem. Within a short number of weeks I was fluent in both and as my hobby has always been woodwork I find there are somethings I make that require me to use metric because they have to fit modern metric appliances etc, but If I am designing a piece of furniture I seem to automatically revert to Imperial and as I tend to measure my widths and thicknesses with a vernier caliper I can use which ever suits. As always great video though!!
I really liked that video, just plain talk (not a pun) I’m a Diy and have tried both. About the time I’m ready to switch to metric my old eyes can’t see those tiny marks. Very good explanation !
Actually as Rob was probably smiling inside about, 16 3/16" is really easy to head math. You halve the 16 for 8. And you double the denominator for 32. That comes out as 8 3/32". And you can then find that on the scale.
If you liked this check out Rob's video on Calipers: th-cam.com/video/RdMXtwyMT1Q/w-d-xo.html
I am a USA native, living in the USA and my woodworking hobby accelerated vastly when I switched to metric. My comfort zone is in imperial, but my max performance is in metric. I find that machining workpieces to whole millimeter measurements then using hand tools to direct fit the parts without any measurement tools to be the most productive workflow for me.
I can play devil's advocate on a few of the facts presented in the video.
1. Metric does have a measure equivalent to a foot, its 300mm.
2. 300mm has 7 whole number divisors 1-10 (1,2,3,4,5,6,10)
3. 12 inches has only 5 whole number divisors 1-10 (1,2,3,4,6)
4. 3-4-5 method for finding right angles is base on a ratio and works in any units.
5. Imperial measuring tools have 3 bases. 12 base above an inch; Below 1 inch the divisor is a halving of the previous divisor 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, 1/32 etc.; Below 1/64th or 1/128th of an inch people often switch to thousandths or "thou" which is 10 based.
6. Metric has a single base of 10 at every scale.
Nailed it!
Great points. I find that those who argue for imperial usually don't understand that metric requires you to think in a different way and relearn one's habits -- rather than import all the imperial habits and try to apply them to metric units.
I read a comment that really struck me -- someone was asking why anyone would want to convert miles to feet in real life if they are not an engineer. As a metric person, I routinely switch to meters when talking about anything less than a full kilometer. Much preferable to either fractions or decimals.
1. No ONE works in units of measure of 300mm. "Oh we have 4 units of measure of 300mm" Smh! Sorry but no, no one does this. They work in units of 100 for metric (or units of 10). So IF there is an equivalent, it is the meter and that would be 100cm ... which is still not the same as that is a larger unit of measure compared to the foot. I suspect you really meant 100cm and not 300mm anyway, by glancing down at your number two, which
2. Is based on your flawed number one answer. Meaning this answer is also flawed. Anyone can play around with numbers and come up with bigger whole division numbers. (ie 2 feet has8 whole number divisions of 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 16, and 24) So I am not seeing your point here. Again you are just playing around with numbers and maths which anyone can do.
2a. Besides you gave 7 whole number divisors for 10 ... not 300mm. 300 has 18 whole divisors. So way wrong.
3. WRONG. 12 has 6 whole numbers, not 5. (1, 2, 3, 4, 6, and 12)
4. Uhm NO, 3, 4, and 5 do NOT work for any unit of measure. 3+4+5 = 12 for a reason. It is a part of the right angle and 1/4 of a complete circle, just as 12 is 1/5 of 60. It is a fundamental of a base 60 system, which is part of 360. It is degrees ... and metric is not degrees as metric is a base 10 system, not a base 12 / 60 system that degrees and radians are. Many ancient cultures used a base 12 / 60 system and were able to perform complex maths because of that, such as trig and calculus, etc. As stated in this video, if 3, 4 and 5 is a base on a ratio and works in any units, then go ahead and divide 3 from your base 10 metric system and give me the answer. It is not some easy whole number as a result and therefor does NOT work, as it is not simplified like it is with a base 12 / 60 system. Instead it is 3.33333 continuous and never ends. How is that working if it never ends?
5. Imperial has TWO bases. Base 12 and base 16. Base 12 for the foot, as there are 12 inches in a foot. And base 16 for the inch. A base 12 is also a base 60 system. Just like a base 16 is also a part of a base 32 as well as base 64 system. But just because a base system, can also be a part of another base system, does not equate to that is another base system being used. Really the two base systems used is base 12 and base 64, but it is simplified to the base 12 and base 16.
5a. Thousands is decimal system, not metric. Every system has a placement of decimals including imperial, metric, binary, hex, etc. It is simply maths.
6. I guess you kind of missed your own thousands point you made in your point 5. As you contradict yourself. While yes metric has a single base 10 at every scale, it also has a base 100, base thousands, etc, etc. It just keeps going.
Maths clearly is not your thing mate.
The imperial markings on a ruler make a lot of sense.
It is so easy to register with your eyes. That alone has me convinced. That and the golden ratio.
Like every other standard fractional system user and adherent I thank you for this video. Very straightforward and easy to understand.
My dad tells a story about engineering a hydro power plant where the engineers used metric. The program manager demanded all measures be imperial. The engineers then converted meters per hour to furlongs per fortnight.
I use imperial for woodworking because all of my tools are in that system and lumber is sold by the board foot. It’s difficult to use fractions on a calculator, but I have no trouble using pencil and paper. I never use math if I don’t have to, it’s much easier and more accurate to use geometry. I refuse to use a combination metric/imperial tri-square, use one or the other not a combination. NASA crashes rockets that way!
I’ve noticed problems with many of the newer tools and fasteners in the advertised imperial sizes. They seem to be roughly converted from metric and they don’t fit as snugly as they should.
I had absolutely no idea about all that stuff you broke down about Imperial. I'm comfortable in either system and literally have measuring devices for both. I'd never considered that such a perspective like that existed.
Thanks for sharing!
Very good points on the division in ratios. This is the same reason we have 360 degrees in a circle rather then 100. (12 factors/ratios)
Then why do they divide Inches by SIXTEEN ??
I think it’s not 12 factors/ratios but 2, that’s why using 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, 1/32, 1/64, 1/128 and so on …. To be accurate and precise you go small and tiny, so it’s more easy to use metric (using 1/10, 1/100, 1/1000……) rather than imperial which in some points it uses the same fraction like metric,
People who used to use a measuring system (no matter which one ) have the feelings and sense of its units so they prefer what they used
The huge advantage of the metric system is you avoid all those fractions! I don't have to work out if I have a 3/4" piece of wood and I need to take off an 18/64th of an inch, then work out how much thinner my wood is after that - nightmare. I too was brought up using imperial but changed to metric for the reason I've just given. BTW, do you also use those other imperial measurements - chain, rod, pole and perch?
Those units are impractical for woodworking in a shop because they're really large-a chain is 66 feet and a rod/pole/perch is 16.5. Regardless yeah they're not really used by anyone anymore because the imperial systems are such a mess that even imperial users are intimidated by it.
You make a very cogent argument for standard measuring. I never looked at it like that but have always leaned towards standard vs metric. Thanks for the great explanation.
The problem is only that in some countries they mix units in metric, which is almost as confusing as the weird Imperial system. If for woodworking, or building, you use 1 measurement base unit and one only, its simple. Use Millimetres. Yes, you will get big numbers, but it is precise, and you will not get fractions. So a door is not 2 metres and 106mm high, the door is 2106mm high, simple. Don't mix units. If you want to get a midpoint, then its 1052mm. Simple Math, no fractions of an inch, no calculating 2 separate measurements..
Great video Rob. Thanks for your training and insight. I've learned more from your channel than any other source.
This was just a bit of fun video. Thanks for supporting our channel. Serious videos coming next
I switched to metric in my woodworking and it has made everything so much easier and more precise.
i love that you dont treat people like their dumb as ive some do i get what your telling me if i can ask my uncle if i dont get it (craftsman) im brain injured and have started learning woodworking etc and like it even though i have probs getting my words out orally or written (relearnt how to talk etc) your channel helped me to start to improve myself so thanks and keep the vids coming
So glad we have helped your woodworking. People get way too excited over things that dont really matter...imperial vs metric is one of those things that just doesn't matter
It is awesome how your history took you to pick units depending on your activities. Here in Peru we use metric system for almost everything in woodworking. Even new hardware rarely comes in imperial anymore. But consider we sometimes use the "half centimeter" or "half milimeter" when measuring.The only thing that has not changed is the way we calculate wood volume. We always calculate in square feet when buying wood. It's weird haha.
I had someone point out that all but Sweden still use knots for aviation speed. Kind of like your board feet quirk
One problem with imperial is that it was never a standardised system. For example a British inch was slightly different to an American inch. A pint and a gallon was massively different which caused a lot of confusion. Some attempt was made many years ago by standardising the inch - as 25.4 mm! So the imperial system is now actually defined in metric. Another big problem for many of us outside the US is that a TH-camr might say “take a piece of 3 by 2” - outside the US you might not be able to buy a length of 3 x 2, you couldn’t buy anything 1/2 inch thick - or a sheet of 3/4” stock. I was brought up in the UK and I’m very familiar and comfortable with imperial, but the fact all of the suppliers and all of the stockist use metric and *only* metric (by law) does make life difficult when taking inspiration from someone who will only talk imperial. Don’t even get me started on cookery channels with their half pints (British or American half pints? Or someone else’s? ) or Fahrenheit (haven’t seen a thermometer or heat control with Fahrenheit on it for decades….). I don’t mind what people prefer to use, but it would be nice if content makers realised that they may have viewers from all over the World and could be a bit flexible about it.
Well put point Rob, we in the UK had just converted to the metric system in my later years of high school, talk about confused, but when buying timber I use imperial then when building I use metric.
Great topics keep em coming.
Love the tongue in check true to life history and practicality. One thing I realized a few months ago is that the numbers or their spacing or how they are divide up doesn’t really matter in many cases.
After the first cut we are just referencing of the existing already cut parts and the measuing devices become story sticks with marks on them for easy reference.
I am a bit odd in that use which ever number system is handy. Without care or favoritism.
I will say your points about 12 being easily divisible by factors of 2 and 3 is spot on.
The 3,4,5 right triangle reference also spot on. Side note 3+4+5=12, is that important in the grand scheme? Not sure.
The convenient different length line presentation for fractions of an inch is also very handy, excellent point as well.
So what is important… making sawdust accurately so what’s left looks great.
Thanks for all the fun insights.
Very well said
Hi Rob I'm a retired builder in New Zealand at 52 only because I watch your channel religiously and thought I could do way better making quality furniture I was trained in both imperial and metric but find metric so much more accurate...still go to the timber store and confuse the young staff there when asking for 6x1 3/4.... love your work and have learned so much from you
See what the do if you ask for 23 board feet next time. Then say its easy to convert multiply by .679 then divide by a 32nd. Then give him a candy bar and have a good laugh
Excellent video. A lot of great ideas and insights here.
That was a very well explained video on both systems. It is a master lesson on fractions and there use. Appreciated the history of the imperial system and the way it was used. Outstanding video thanks for sharing. Take care. 👍🏻
Glad you enjoyed it!
@@RobCosmanWoodworking One quibble I have with it is that the example cabinet, f.ex, you've designed it around clean customary measures. If you'd worked natively in metric, you'd have likely designed it to be clean in mm or cm. I'm a linguistics nerd and whenever people complain about one language wrt another, they're inevitably using an expression that feels either natural or poetic in the source language but clumsier in the target language. They should rather look into things like "can I express what I want in this language/system" than "can I translate what's beautiful or clean in one system to be beautiful or clean in another", I think.
I like how you talked about that. I am working on becoming a luthier. I see a few people on here use metric. it's not the unit of measurement that inspires me it's the craftsmanship in the work. I am trying to save some money for a good plane. 😄
bevel down is the only way to go !
Hello from Australia.
As you would know we use metric. However I use both. I’m only young yet I still use imperial when I need to. I’m glad my dad taught me while building houses. Even though I use metric 80% of the time.
In regard to ‘feet’ as an intermediate measurement. We do have that. In cabinetry things are worked in 300mm 600mm 900mm and 1200mm. The caveat is that this breaks the rule somewhat of easy divisions. It’s not 1/3 (333.33mm) but rather 3/10 which sounds like an odd ratio but is so simple in my metric brain because it’s just a standard to build to.
The 300/600 etc. would equate to (roughly) your 1/2/3/4 foot comparison.
Love your work.
Excellent video Rob. One other thing I like about imperial is that subdividing a inch into 64ths is still a readable measurement on a rule whereas subdividing a centimentre past millimeters is impossible to read on a rule.
I have a metric rule that has half millimeters marked on it.
Thanks for sharing some sensible considerations, also useful for a native metric user.
I converted from imperial to metric over 10 years ago primarily because it was frustrating to use dual units when using European hardware. I decided it was going to be either one or the other but not both. Initially, I had a lot of visualization issues but in relatively short order, metric became second nature (and I remember the 1970's debacle on the US feeble attempt to convert to metric). The biggest challenge I have is with router bits whose even metric equivalents in the US are made mostly of the rare element called unobtainium. I have no regrets in making the change. Whatever your preferred measurement system is, we should all be thankful that we are not using the cubit system of measurement. Steve
Yes unobtainium is almost as difficult to find as as an 8 track tape these days!!!
And yet:
In the metric system one can use the number twelve with all its virtues.
What is half of twelve (centimeters)? What is a third of twelve (centimeters)?
You can create a right angle using 3, 4 and 5 in metric units as well.
A foot is comparable to 30cm; just use two times a length of 30cm and you have something close enough to two feet, for all practical purposes in woodworking.
Well duh 💀. If you wanted to emulate metric in imperial you can just use 10 inches too. The point is that there's no unit for that.
Love this! I'm a decent woodworker living in Australia, a metric country. I was taught woodwork by my brother who is a carpenter, in the building trade they loosely use a "metric foot" of 300mm. Very convenient making a six-by-two workbench (1800x600mm) or an eight-foot ceiling (2400mm). It's actually very close for purposes of estimation, and ultimately the proportions of a piece of fine woodwork will be the same.
After all these arguments, you've broken it down logically. Thanks.
Thanks.....
My preference as well and very solid rationale for your preference. Nicely presented.
Thank you kindly!
I was introduced to inch measurement, when my parents bought construction timber. Two-by-two, two-by-four and so on... Nowadays I mostly use metric system in woodworking hobby. Hand drill bits here are all in inch measument. Also folded metal rulers, have both inch and centimeter scale. When felling trees, I occasionally measure the estimate height of a three with wooden stick method. I use amount of steps to estimate height in meters :-)
Thanks Rob, I got rid of the low angle jack for a 5 1/2 standard angle way back!
Like you Rob I grew up learning about feet, inches pounds and gallons, then Australia converted to metric about when I started high school. Now I have always been very comfortable with metric, until I started woodworking when again, like you I found making out which line on the ruler is 7 mm very difficult with my sixty plus year old eyes, doubly so because the metric rulers here have all the half mm marked too. Holy crap there's a lot of lines. So I found a ruler and tape measure which has both and use the imperial measurements because I can see them more easily.
I have also recently bought By Hand and Eye, after becoming totally bamboozled by a design drawing using the whole number fractions idea. Had no idea what the keys meant. The book is indeed a great read.
Super great book. Definitely get his follow on workbook,”by dog and eye” which is a workbook on doing all the divider work
Finally an argument for imperial that actually makes sense! Usually people only say they use it out of habit or because it feels better to them, but now I can at last understand why that might be ... Not that I will switch away from metric though :)
Some of it was irrelevant though. Like using the divider which can be done in any system.
And he was unhappy that a two feet measurement didn't come out as a nice number in metric. Well, 600mm doesn't become a nice round imperial value either.
@@bobjeaniejoey Oh I have used imperial measurements, namely the foot which is still used by me for quick estimates because my father always used feet and inches. Then I multiply by three to convert it to decimeters. It was annoying when I discovered as a child that the foot wasn't ten inches. And even more annoyed as an adult when I finally discovered that the inch didn't divide into tenths either. No way in hell I want to deal with compound fractions in measurements.
We also use square feet and acres informally, but that's it. Everything apart from these four units is metric. I can't estimate pounds or miles or ounces.
What I've seen is the opposite of what you claim, it is the imperial fanatics that don't understand how Metric works. The complaints rarely make sense. Usually, they are approaching the problem using imperial methods when metric requires a different (and normally easier) approach.
I don't know anybody who associates imperial with actual imperialists. Must be a very, very regional thing.
//'mock and denigrate what is the superior form of measurement, the imperial system'// How do people say this with a straight face?
//'Have you seen the video where some Scottish sounding guy'// Yes, and I wasn't impressed either.
//'Imperial measurement is best for all units of everyday measurement in Mr. and Mrs. Everypersons' lives.'// Only because you grew up with them. I find the kilogram and liter highly intuitive myself. Especially convenient that one liter of water is one kilogram. And I only understand the kilometer for long distances. Likewise, Fahrenheit is gibberish to me.
@@bobjeaniejoey "Otherwise, metric is inferior to imperial. I can demonstrate one example after another after another after another."///
I am curious. What are these examples? My guess remains that you are trying to directly apply the imperial methods you know to metric units. And finding it clumsy as a result. You need to learn the metric way of doing things.
I like the humor of the bevel down bench plane, and I also agree with it.
Hi Rob. Great video. Thank you. As a Canadian, I grew up with Imperial. I'm a lot older than you, LOL. But when we converted, I ended up being the teacher for the metric system for our work in the oilfield. Metric is actually easier for cement and frac volumes and the kgs used ; same for well control. But for house building, woodworking and machinist work, Imperial is the way to go. All my racing engines were worked to thousandths. Woodworking ratios ...... love it. As a new woodworker, my planes are bevel down with the exception of a couple of antique block planes.
you just hit the ball wrong with metric system its not only measurments its all things example 1 gallon of water weighs 8.33 pounds vs 1 liter water weighs exactly 1kg sow 1000 liters weighs 1000 kilograms whats a metric ton wich is the volume of 1 meter high 1meter long 1meter wide is actualy 1 qubic meter
Both are fine to get roughly close to final cut.
Check 5 tapes measures and 5 rulers.
Are they the same?
The story stick does not lie!
A very true statement !!!!!
I started a toolmaking apprenticeship at Ford UK in 1967, when we used the Imperial measuring system. We changed to metric a few years later, so I now still happily use both systems, but I _always_ use base ten regardless of the system I am using. Rob started to explain an advantage of base 12 with 'What's half of 12? 6. What's a quarter of 12? 3.' but conveniently stopped there before the next halving gave an inconvenient answer of 1.5 - er, sorry about that. I meant 1 and a ½. Another comment mentioned the math being easier with base ten, which has always been my primary argument for using it. It's so much easier to add decimal figures than fractions. The day it became clear that the world had gone mad was when Stumpy Nubs proudly demonstrated his new digital callipers that displayed fractions! I mean, what the heck?! They could only measure up to six inches, which is where you are more likely to need finer (smaller) measurements and greater accuracy. I am 73 years old now, and I am completely comfortable thinking in both systems, but always in base ten when I need to break down an inch, (25.4mm).
The whole point is neither system is better. The wood doesn't care. Use what system works best for you
Nice wee video. And you're right about the plane.
And thats the MOST important point in the video
It may have been me who kicked it all off last time, but for the record, we had imperial at primary school until metrification. Metric during my aircraft apprenticeship in the RAF. And now as an old f4rt hobby woodworker I use both!
Very good explanation of both systems. Thanks
You are welcome
Interesting. As an American I secretly had an admiration for how much easier the math would be. Not enough to start using the metric system however... I would probably be chased off of a job site for using it. Never really thought much about the ratios. When you mentioned it I was like, "Yeah I guess I use 1:3 and 1:4 all the time."
See there…thats what the old artisans said too
Having recently moved to NZ and set up shop I've begrudgingly transitioned to my new metric identity, mm,, but seriously it's really what you're are comfortable with. As far as fractions of numbers in the metric system, I regularly work to .5mm. Yeah it's a bit of strain on the eyes but you get use to it. I still conceptualize in Imperial, layout centers in Imperial, square in Imperial, and layout jointer in Imperial. I guess my new identity is bi-measuremental. Does that make me new age?
The math isn't easier. Head math in fractions is easier. As with Rob's 16 3/16/2. that is 8 and 3/32. In metric it is 411mm.
@@HondoTrailside For you perhaps. For me, 16 3/16 is already hard to conceptualize, but I know 411/2 is 205.5 without any effort.
Not to mention ten times easier when something a little more complicated makes you break out the calculator app.
@@rexsceleratorum1632 Interesting 411/2 is easy but half of 16 is 8 and half of 3/16 is 3/32 is hard? I mean no offence, I'm just curious where the difference really is. I think really it just comes down to not overthinking the division. Some would probably screw up 205.5 honestly. I also personally find it easy to understand 3/16 exactly but that is 4.7625 mm.
Really interesting stuff Rob, the golden ratio is very pleasing to the eye. Most Edwardian rooms are based on one side being 161% the size of the other.
Interesting
Great information.
Thanks Frank
Good points. I believe it boils down to what you can visualize in your minds eye.
I can visualize a kilometer (yes , ...I am Canadian) I cannot visualize a mile.
I can visualize a foot, I cannot visualize a meter.
I have tried to use metric in the shop but it's like using a new language.
I believe both have their merits.
Whatever you are the most comfortable with
Many Gen X who grew up here in Australia learnt metric in school and imperial measurements from their parents or grandparents. Being fluent in both is a nice skill to have.
Enjoyed the video Rob. I'm with you on the Imperial, or Freedom unit measurement system.
I see - one of those americans with such a limited view of the world, that you actually think americans "invented" freedom - whatever that means.
Dear Mr. Cosan,
I grew up with metric, nevertheless I see your point in imperial. If I can produce products which will fit the golden ratio and therefore please the eye, it is great and easy to do. I have a measurment with 1/2 mm lines and my eyesight hasn't improved over the years. It is a wild assumption that some woodworker are older with a lot of experience, not me, but can read there measurnents not only guessing. I have never understood the golden ratio because of not unterstanding a 12 System. I think learning imperial may help me a lot.
Thanks for your input.
Hi Rob, as someone of 61 years from the UK, I was taught at school with a mixture of imperial and metric. When I left school the fine furniture company I worked for it was always imperial and as we made reproduction furniture it would probably have been crazy to have used metric. This followed me all the way until I started to make furniture more for the European market where they only used metric, culminating now where I instruct at my local college whereby the students have been brought up to only understand metric. I sometimes switch between the two depending on what I am measuring and like you say it really makes little difference they are just units to measure with. The UK is really a strange mix of the two probably pushed by our involvement with the European Union but metric is probably the way we will totally end up with, apart that is for road sign distances, speed and ordering drinks in a bar. I 100% agree with you over bevel down planes, I just cannot see any benefit to using low angle bevel up, bought one, tried it and will probably sell it as see no advantage. Weekender hobbyists most certainly think differently and if it works for them good luck and enjoy them. Two subjects that are bound to divide opinion.
I'm also Canadian and I've always used imperial but often thought that metric would make more sense in terms of not having to mess with fractions so much but your argument here about fractions being so helpful in creating understandable ratios has be pretty comfortable sticking with imperial.
So this is really interesting. There is a great Numberphile video from about a decade ago that I just re watched recently talking about a counting system using Base 12. The argument being for basic math, especially for kids learning math would be a lot easier because of the fractions you described. Imagine if the French changed the counting system instead of the measuring system.
I first learned woodworking with my grandfather born in 1913, my parents were born in the late 40s and all my shop teachers from Highschool through college are about your age Rob. It wasn't till my first job that I was forced into metric. Now I can't go back and even in my personal woodworking I work in metric. But if you ask me how tall I am ill say I am 6'4" lol
so how old do you think i am? 😆
I was taught base 12 maths at school when we had measurements in feet and inches and currency in pounds, shillings and pence. Believe me, multiplying and dividing basic numbers in base 12 is a lot more complicated than the decimal system we use now.
@@johnpearson230 just curious if you were taught the Dozenal system of counting too?
What I am talking about adds 2 new numbers 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,dek,el(I can't make the symbols for these 2 new numbers on a keyboard). Basically if we had 6 fingers instead of 10 we might have never come up with counting with what we now call the decimal system.
@@deathsyth27 Yes, we used a and b - 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, a, b, 10. No idea why we were taught this and never used it since but I remember it was mind blowing as an 8 year old.
I regularly use both systems, quite often at the same time.
You must have a huge brain!!!!!!
I'm the same, for anything requiring precision in woodworking, I go in mm even though the predominant measurements used in plans were feet and inches for most of my life. I'll often revert to inches/feet to get rough dimensions and figure out what lumber I'll need, but when it comes time to mark and cut, I go by my mm dimensions.
I'm french but I took the habit to design stuff (print layout, website) using a base 12 for his convenience to be divided by 2,3,4,6. So I found inches/feet very relevant in furniture making.
Oui mais c'est juste ridicule. Pour connaître un peu les américains, ils font la tête de cochon et refusent le système métrique parce qu'ils ne lont pas inventé. Ils n'ont aucun problème à s'imposer dans le monde et a imposer leur truc, eux.. Et leur rejet du système métrique est d'autant plus fort que les français l'ont inventé. Il est inutile de leur cirer les pompes quand ils ont cette attitude.
On utilise une division et avec les chiffres décimaux éventuels on arrive a tout autant de précision que lon désire. Personne ne s'embête a faire des divisions au un tiers comme un point de départ de son travail. Et le système de base 10 peut faire des divisions au quart qui tombent juste, decimalement parlant. Et on peut diviser au cinquième (et tomber juste ) en métrique ce que le système imperial ne peut pas faire. Donc il n'y a même pas de gain absolu.
Et dailleurs sur les petites distances, le système métrique a un autre avantage face au système imperial. Tu connais les subdivisions en dessous du pouce? Non. Car Personne ne les connais. Alors qu'en métrique tu a le millimètre. Le micron. Le nanomètre... La précision est aussi grande que l'on veut. Littéralement
Le système métrique est supérieur sur toute la ligne. Il faut se moquer d'eux sur leur impérialisme (s'imposer aux autres sans jamais rien prendre en retour) ou alors on s'en sort plus...
Fantastic closing comment-- i burst out laughing with a mouthful of coffee!
I really wondered how ya'll did that up North. I was a machinist in Texas when it was talked-about going metric and the expense it would be to replace hand tools , redraw prints to avoid mistakes during conversion. Great video keep them coming
keep watching and we will keep filming
The issue here in the UK is that the vast majority of our available stock is listed in metric. I do find myself estimating sizes in imperial but when it comes to design, layout and cutting, I use metric. Great vid though. Love watching your channel.
As always Sir, a very insightful and interesting lesson by probably (and in my opinion) the best woodworker teacher on the internet.
The goto for any advice in traditional skills. Thank you
Thanks for not taking this video too seiously
I believe that this was the loudest *Hi I’m Rob Cosman and welcome to my shop!*
All agreed Rob 👍. I was raised imperial and we converted in UK in the 70s. Metric is quicker and easier to divide by moving the decimal point, but much harder to visually the size. I think ill give Tolpins book a miss though, over here its £270 used! Wouldnt that buy me a Cosman saw? 😁
You can get the book much cheaper. Try Lost Art Press also the used market
Nice dismount from the video!
The bevel down really does make all the difference! I worked in archaeology until I retired. While dealing with prehistoric resources we always used metric. But my boss, who was an historic archaeologist by preference insisted on using feet and inches as opposed to meters and centimeters. In fact we also leaned on millimeters to avoid decimal fractions. I often wrote reports where measures and distances needed to be presented in both systems simultaneously. But I also did wood work, building archaeological screens for example. That and repairing and restoring an old house led to needing to use feet and inches. I had already discovered the joys of practical geometry in the field for mapping, laying out units, and overland navigation. In the shop suddenly both fractions - which I detested in grammar school, and geometry suddenly had vast new applications. And were immensely practical and even a genuine pleasure to use.
But most importantly you are a bevel down guy!
I agree that 12 based system is better in terms of integer divisions...but
First, you can use decimal AND use the benefits of 12. Your board doesn't have to be 100 mm or 1000 mm, it can be 12mm or 120 mm and 1200 mm.
Second, imperial is not base 12, it is crazy only inches to feet is 12 based. Not that relevant for woodworking though.
Excellent. Envied the ease with which two mm values could be added. As opposed to something like 3/32 and 15/64. Stuck with imperial because I always had used it and - more important - because all my tools are imperial. Now I have an even better reason. Thanks for your insight. When I buy a new wrench or other such tool I am very dubious about marking like 1”, 2.5 cm. I have found that the rounding coupled with manufacturing variance can sometimes cause problems for me.
Your observation about dividers and geometry are spot on - and not just limited to woodworking. When my daughter took geometry 20 years ago, it turned out to be trigonometry - with rulers and measurement - as opposed to the Euclidean geometry of ratios, theorems, and proofs. Thanks again.
Geometry is super interesting and its how the ancients figure mist stuff out. Read by hand and eye by Jim Tolpin…you will live it
Interesting perspective. Personally, I always worked with imperial and had to convert to metric in my late teens (Quebec). Working in the aerospace industry, I always worked in imperial with decimals (thousands of inches) over a 40 year career. Now retired, I got more interested in woodworking and took on renovation projects. I initially started working with fractions, got frustrated and eventually evolved to metric for precision work. I figure I am about your age and the way I read the “fine print” of mm is that I estimate the actual based on where it is located on the scale…. Works for me! In the end, I am of the opinion that for us who had to adapt to a new measurement system, it comes down to preference and comfort. My 38 year old son is of course fully metric because this is what he learned.
Brilliant rationalization I too mostly use Imperial measure because I'm too old to change.
You and me both brother
Like you I was born in Canada prior to the introduction of the metric system and have been living in the U.S for the past 25 years. I use both systems. When doing carpentry I use the imperials system since the dimensions of materials like 2x4, 2x6, ..., and plywood are base on the inches. The same goes with building case goods. For CNC work I use the metric system. But for measuring long distances I use time. How far is it from Ottawa to Montréal? About two hours. :)
I was in my late teens when Australia converted to metric measurements. So I grew up with imperial and then as a young adult changed to metric, I have a total understanding of both systems and I actually use both systems in my woodwork and metalwork, I'll use which every best suits the project I'm doing and at times use both systems in the same project. I have no problem switching from one to the other.
What system is best for ordering beer?
As an engineer from Germany, I am obviously a big fan of the metric system. The consistency across all scales and the full compatibility with all the other units in physics is a big advantage and I used to get really frustrated when I had to use the imperial system for some reason. Now when I started woodworking, I really had to rethink a couple of things, that are done very differently than in engineering. Along with that, I discovered that the biggest advantage of the imperial system is it's apparent limitation. Like if I have to pick a screw size, I have M3, M4, M5, M6, M8, M10, M12 and so on to choose from. In that same spectrum, there are generally 1/8", 1/4", 1/2" and 1" and unless you want to optimize, it's pretty obvious which one to choose. I know, there are more sizes than that, but that would be my first step. Also when I need to choose a position for a hole set in from an edge, it's much easier to just go "is an inch ok?" and if not go to 3/4" instead of picking an arbitrary number of millimeters. The bottom line is, it really helps me get stuff done and not get bogged up in details.
And I totally agree on the mathematical advantages. If only our whole number system had started with a base of 12, we wouldn't even have this discussion.
But being German you must agree that a bevel down plane is the only way to go. Like German beer vs. Canadian beer????
Whatever floats your boat
I'm a metric guy, but your assumptions about metric woodworkers are just strange
Here in the UK we were taught Metric in the school from the 1970's. But I have to agree with you that the Imperial divisions are easier to read.
Nice video Rob! Being Australian (and a bit older than you, I too learnt both imperial and metric. But at school, we simply started using metric for everything and I haven't looked back. Happy with kilograms, kilometers, even kilojoules! But I still say I am six feet tall and have to think about what that is in centimeters ... I do all my woodworking in metric and don't really notice any issues, except when dealing with US or UK plans, videos etc. I agree with you though, just use what you are comfortable with. I love it when someone says 11 and 13 sixteenths! I do the math and think, well, that is pretty much 300 mil. We can all be happy ...
Ahhh. You get the point of the video. Have you read some of the comments from the metric zealots????
@@RobCosmanWoodworking Thanks Rob. Most of the ones I read (and nice to see another Aussie replying) seemed to not favour one over the other, but simply that people use what they are comfortable with. I lived in the UK for a while and I really struggled with miles and MPH. Had to really watch it to avoid speeding tickets!
Actually, a fascinating consideration that I had never thought about. I use both, the metric less occasionally than imperial. Great, thought provoking video, Rob.
Really just a bit of fun as I get so many folks complaining that I use imperial
thanks...does it matter which system one uses after the initial layout? After that, all the measurements come from reality.
Very interesting.....thanks for explaining the difference in the two!
It was just a fun video, glad I gave you some info you didn’t know before watching
Like someone already said, in some examples words are very misleading. For example, you say "Oh, its a lot easier for me to understand that it is 2 feet by 3 feet, as opposed to 610mm by 890mm.." which makes it seem that metric is always between some beautiful round numbers again. How about making that dresser to be 900mm by 600mm (or simply 90x60 centimeters, or 9x6 decimeters) and transferring that to imperial? What would it be? Just curious.. Found it.. Around 2.95276 Ft by 1.9685 Ft.. Really nice round number.. And we can go even further and transfer that into exotic sixteenths, quarters, sixty-fourths (have to chuckle here).. At the end of the day, you, me and everybody else can choose what they prefer, but there is no need to be misleading about it. Most of us following respect you for your work and craftsmanship which is outstanding in my eyes. There is no need for you to follow this path that leads nowhere with these kinds of videos. At least in my opinion. Take care and see ya on the next one.
Sorry you didn't like it...So far its performing as one of our most liked videos !!!! Go figure!
It's good to see an acknowledgement that not all the world uses imperial. I mark out in metric and it's frustrating that so many useful layout tools are manufactured in the US and only come with imperial markings, even though the rest of the world uses metric, particularly as it reduces the potential market by more than 95% (yes, over 95% of the planet live outside the US). Ultimately though, unless you are making a piece to exact dimensions, most of the individual parts that make up an item of furniture are sized relative to each other and it's more accurate to set out a mortice using the tenon as a guide (or tenon using the mortice) than to use a rule in whatever measurement system.
Well, you make a valid point and I respect that. Now I am a bred born and corn fed Michigan lad. ( of 55 years of age) Back in the late 70's the US tried to convert to Metric and the schools tried to develop a level of teaching metric to kids... yeah it really didn't take. YET as I am a Wood Turner, I find that metric in the small, less than 50mm or 2 inches. Metric just works better. Now with the projects you rock out I too would use imperial. PLUS if you use imperial based hardware, you can never loose your 10mm socket, Just Sayin' 😉
I use both. Whichever is more convenient for the work at hand.
Also, woodworking should rely on physical pieces, not a closest number. If board you use is not exactly 1-1/2” thick, 1/3 of that is not exactly 1/2”. But most likely you still use a 1/2” chisel for the mortise. Then trim the tenon to fit the 1/2” mortise which may not be perfectly 1/2” or 500 thousandths of an inch. At that point, which system to use does not matter, I can cut the mortise with a 12mm chisel and trim tenon to fit.
Very interesting video Rob, I didn't realize there were so many aspects about the imperial system that lend itself to woodworking.
Go read Tolpin’s book, “by hand and eye” and he has a lot more interesting stuff on it. Boils down to what you are comfortable with
Best explanation ever
Why thank you.....I bet you would enjoy reading Tolpin's book
The handplane joke at the end took me for surprice. Great informative video.
Im used to the metruc system much more than imperial but i ofthen use which ever fits the best for the job at hand. Woodworking is easier in imperial, just as my actual job as a web designer uses 12 collum grid also in desing
I’m totally on that same boat. It’s just harder for me to visualize what 986 mm is in my head but I know what roughly 2ft 3ft or 19” or 42”. Maybe it’s just cuz I’m used to it. But whenever I have a number in metric I always have to convert it to imperial so that I know roughly how long it actually is
I am American but have exclusively used the metric system for over 2 decades (Science teacher). All electronic devices are set to metric, etc.....EXCEPT in my workshop, and it's not because it is what I was used to, (I tried to convert there too, and have an abundance of metric starrett rules to prove it) it is because, as Rob states, there are some real practical advantages to using the natural divisions inherent in the imperial system. At the end of the day, I agree though, use what gets you in your shop and enjoying wood. 🙂
I’m in the UK where metric was adopted before I was born, so I’m used to it. The funny thing is that, while I believe people who work in imperial can use it exclusively, the same isn’t true for woodworkers here using metric. Chisels, planes, blades and many others tools are sized in inches, as is lots of wood - we shop in mm for small items, like trim, but inches (2x4s) for bigger bits.
I find small measurements (calliper readings and a few centimetres) easier in metric, but perhaps only because I was never taught to calculate in fractions efficiently.
Thats is so interesting.
Great explanation. Thank you. I learned something.
Read Tolpin’s book, you will find it interedting
beautiful explanation
Thanks for watching
I prefer Imperial, but that's what I grew up with. I've tried Metric, and though the math is technically simpler, I find it is not natural and I think a lot harder than I do with Imperial. I do a lot of Imperial to Metric conversions since my wife is from Eastern Europe and she thinks in mm, cm and meters. She is pretty good with miles though since she learned to drive in the USA and cooks using Imperial measurements. As always, thanks for the videos and keep 'em coming.
PS, I'm a bevel down guy as well!
Bevel down is the ONLY thing that truly matters !!!!!
I was brought up on metric but the older I get I’m leaning more towards imperial and I like your last comment on planes that will start a debate for sure.
Good stuff Coach, totally agree with your logic. I too prefer Imperial but had to adapt to metric for some situations, usually in European or Japanese tooling situations and set ups. Clearly, it’s good to be comfortable in both. Thx for the video
thanks for watching
Thank you. 😊
You're welcome 😊
I think you are correct with the base 12 system.
Why is the base 10 system used with most monetary system?
Plus why did the likes of Australia then the UK change from base 12 monetary system to base 10?
IMO dumbing down the populace, coupled with the globalist agenda for an unskilled and homogenous population.
Excellent comparison, and the right conclusion that using what you like and are comfortable with is right for you , no definitive right or wrong to either system. I am from the UK and only a year or so behind you in years , and as such , was fortunate to be brought up using both systems and comfortable with both and convert to both systems freely..I use mainly metric but still use imperial on a daily basis. miles, feet, inches ...both work for me. But things can get confusing for the younger generation on both systems....When I was an apprentice I had to deal with metric, imperial and British Standard Whitworth and AF for nuts and bolts..AF = Across Flats as I was taught, but BSW was the size of the actual bolt shaft and hole in the nut! crazy systems all of them, but when used to ,like anything else , becomes easy I suppose. Thanks for sharing and great insight.
Thank you for getting the point of the video. Have you seen some of the comments some zealots are sending in….so funny!!!!!
Metric came in during my junior school years. I really struggled with £/shillings and pence so gravitated to metric as a result.
I'll be practicing with imperial from now on.
Thanks Rob.
Thanks Rob. I agree it won't change anyone's mind BUT I think you are right. Also, in some countries, the foot changed value when there was new kind with a new foot. Still giving value to the 12 based system. Curious what base system the Cubit was in. Also, I hate rulers that have more than 1/16'" listed. Anything finer than that is likely not measured by marked with a knife. Plus, at a 1/16" I can guestimate a 32nd pretty easily. I could even argue that don't need markings on a ruler beyond an eighth for reasons mentioned above. No, I don't have any strong feelings on the topic. Lol.
Good point on interpreting measurements
I was in my 3rd year apprenticeship electrician (Alberta) when metric came in. From high rise office towers to houses, all drawing measurements were metric down to cabinetry. If you used imperial you would end up with odd measurement numbers, but if you used the other edge of the tape would would end up with common measurements used across the trades/engineering drawings. All building codes were in metric. Within a few months time if you asked anybody on a job site about their preference they would say they would never go back to imperial for drawings, room floor and wall layouts, etc. Imperial is only use now by some as a 'drawing in the air with your hands' conceptualizing discussions. material take-off is so much easier in metric. Many of the young do not know how long a yard, foot, inch is. Deci and Deca units are not use except a very few industry sectors.
Resistance is futile.
Sounds like the Borg
Nicely done, Rob. I grew up using imperial, as a building contractor the metric system is a bit cumbersome for the very reasons you laid out (subtle pun). For smaller scale woodworking projects such as dovetailed boxes, sure, metric works, but I mostly use imperial. When you used the example of 16-3/16" and said half, I immediately did 8-3/32", very simple and easy. Half the whole number, double the denominator= exactly half. The other interesting point is for precision, use a rule with 64ths if your eyes don't cross first, it's still a definitive mark vs. splitting millimeters. Okay, that was just for argument sake. I had a project once where the homeowner was a bit OCD, he set his CAD program to use Imperial and 64ths for his remodel project. Yeah, usually started and ended the day with a headache.
Thanks for the comment and intersting story
Why even bother to have a equivalent of "feet" in a carpentry if you gonna use metric system.... just build it with metric measurements...
Great explanation Rob. Always wondered why I see other Canadian wood crafter working in imperial. I always thought that changed once a person crossed over the Rainbow and Ambassador bridges or the like.
Like the door pulls on the dresser. 2A approved here on the south side of the boarder. JimE
I've never understood why people make such a fuss about Metric v Imperial. Growing up in England I was taught Imperial measurement then in 1971 when I just completed my 5yr Engineering Apprenticeship we went over to Metric. The change was instant and we just had to get on with it, but as the Metric system is all based on ten it wasn't a problem. Within a short number of weeks I was fluent in both and as my hobby has always been woodwork I find there are somethings I make that require me to use metric because they have to fit modern metric appliances etc, but If I am designing a piece of furniture I seem to automatically revert to Imperial and as I tend to measure my widths and thicknesses with a vernier caliper I can use which ever suits. As always great video though!!
Great comment, but yes folks get real excited about this topic....like you I am not sure why
I really liked that video, just plain talk (not a pun) I’m a Diy and have tried both. About the time I’m ready to switch to metric my old eyes can’t see those tiny marks. Very good explanation !
Thanks for watching and laughing (I hope you laughed with me)
Actually as Rob was probably smiling inside about, 16 3/16" is really easy to head math. You halve the 16 for 8. And you double the denominator for 32. That comes out as 8 3/32". And you can then find that on the scale.