SHINee as a group is arguably the most balanced vocal group. They might not have the best vocalist in the industry but all 5 of them are great. Key being a rapper/non-vocalist and being able to pull of a Bb5 as a baritone is beyond me.
@@spacecatmeows More or less Jonghyun I think in terms of technical skills but Onew is really good as well. He's around the level of the top 4th gen main vocalists today when he's a lead vocal in SHINee
That time when an infamous kpop vocal analyst said a vocalist had no sense of pitch and then showed a clip of her perfectly pitching her voice as she flawlessly switched between her head voice and chest voice. 😭 Another favorite word is regression, he insisted an idol had gotten worse cause she hit high notes "better" in the past, except the idol stated in a live that she changed how she does her high notes because she was uncomfortable with that old technique.
I can't express enough how this video said everything I wanted to say for a looooong while, but was too scared for backlash. Thank you for debunking some myths on vocals and explaining to the people new to singing what it is and what is or isn't important. I am sooo sooo tired of these so called 'vocal expert' threads on reddit or videos on ktube. Vocal coaches give me nightmares on the k-react scene as well. They will ALWAYS say something nice and never say anything real. Then toxic fans use that to justify their faves can sing or that their faves are THE best.
Thanks you !!! I'm so happy to finally see an actual video about real vocal technique ❤ As an pianist and opera enthusiast, who had the chance to meet singers (pros and amateurs ) the system of a,b,c etc that i saw kpop fans using was infuriating me to the core. I was always redirecting some oblivious fans to the comete vocal institute site to explain to them that first NO, support isn't everything and No it isn't just diaphragm support only that matters for having a proper technique. Btw, happy new years to all 🎉🥳✨️
Vocal tiers come from Kpop Vocal Analysis blog. It was used as shorthand to “rank” them in term of vocal abilities. The blog owner now dismissed it and discouraged against using it since it was too rigid and not nuanced enough. Kpop stans just saw it and ran with it, creating fan war and nonsense in online discussion. Exit: You are also right about high notes. It is only just one aspect of what make someone good at singing, not everything. Low notes, Vocal runs, Register transition, Dynamics control, etc. Unfortunately Kpop songs with heavy dance are not suitable for showcasing those skill, and one can only be showcased on stand still performance.
No, voice types are NOT based on range. They're based on the tessitura of the singer. Zayn from One Direction can hit low baritone notes but he's actually a tenor.
This. Mariah Carey could sing crazy low note but she is still soprano. Or Dimash could sing crazy high note but is still baritone. It’s determined by passaggio in their voice (transition phase from “full chest” to “mixed”, and from “mixed” to “full head”)
This is everything I've wanted to say ever since I saw ktubers and kpop fans comment on idols' vocal skills. Thank you so much for putting out this video, because this is needed!!❤
This is such a great video, well articulated and really easy to understand. The fact that you mentioned behaviors or situations that where very precise without always mentioning groups feels refreshing, it doesn't feel like you are defending nor attacking groups and idols. I think I have never agreed more with this type of video. I feel like nowadays a lot of criticism made by K-Pop Stan is too focused on being unapologetically biased and the waves of hate are never ending. This year vocals were the problem we'll see what kpop stans have to complain about next year, I feel there is always new criticism rising and new problems that suddenly appear in all the groups that are gaining popularity (I mean, I understand that being seen by more people makes it that there is more chances to receive criticism, but weirdly it's always one problem during a specific year). Anyway that was really really good and you did an incredible job on multiple levels of this video, I think it really shows how hard you worked on it. So thank you for those thirty minutes of k-pop content that wasn't absolute brain rot and truly keep up the good work ❤
Correction. There are 6 main voice types. Females: soprano (majority of Kpop female vocalists), mezzo soprano (Moonbyul, Pink, Beyonce, Adele, etc.), and contralto (Cher, Nina Simone). Males have tenor, baritone, and bass. Alto is nit a voice type. It’s a position in choral singing. There are quite some altos in choirs simply because they’re underdeveloped sopranos.
I hate to shock you, but apart from Wendy, the rest are very so/so. They all have their individual very obvious struggles. Wendy is truly the glue whose backing harmonies tend to fix everything for all-group parts. Seulgi and Joy aren't that stable as some fans claim them to be. Irene is an advanced sub-vocalist at most, Joy and Seulgi are advanced regular vocalist tier singers and Yeri wouldn't be considered supported. So basically that leaves them with one real vocalist. I say that in pain because I LOVE these girls. I'm not an anti! I own multiple of their albums even and I would sell my real hair to meet Seulgi or Irene.
@@soomiokay but they sound good so does it matter? They don’t sound like illit or le serm like… seulgi can still hold up without any help and so can joy.. the only person in rv whose vocals r underdeveloped is Yeri
@@soomi i can't believe you are making an argument using tiers just when the video called them out for not being rooted in anything sensible :D. Everyone in Red Velvet can sing well live (heard loud and clear) and they have so many good harmonies, few of the groups that sing choruses together. I'd call that way above "just okay"
@@soomiwell….that opinion is something. Not gonna assume your vocal experience and or what genres you were trained in and what your preferred singing language is. So I’m gonna let you rock
It's true high-notes aren't the only thing people should consider because... I still think high-notes are harder for Taehyun, but the fact is it's not what he does the best, and not what made him the main vocalist, and if people had a drop of good faith in them, they would see it. Also YES, idols should still take vocal lessons after debuting, especially if they are lacking, but also if they want to continue improving the most ! The fact idols like Taemin are an exception is actually BAD. Like maybe the Taemin level of improvement is too much to ask, but other vocalists also improved after debuting, like BTS' Jin and EXO's Kai did improve after debuting thanks to their own work. Even idols who have a good reputation as vocalists like Baekhyun of EXO still take vocal lessons. And even Taemin is actually still working on his vocals even though most thought "oh, now he improved, it's good enough"... I do appreciate hearing artists who are still seeking to improve 16 years + into their career, hearing improvement from older artists is the most thrilling thing to me as a fan. The "blame the company" thing I think works in some cases, like for rookie idols I would say... They are the one who picked the idols, they know if they are struggling to sing, and they are the one handling the trainee's programs (and if vocal lessons are only a tiny part in the program, it's hard for the trainees for are often very young and go to school next to their training to find the time to work alone. Most are kids.). When the idols are older into their career, then I would actually point fingers at the idol, but not for the rookies. Like some rookie idols were good from the start when it comes to vocals like SNSD, Mamamoo, NMIXX, SHINee, B.A.P and all... But it's not the case for all groups, especially in more recent generations. TxT are an example for me of an idol group whose member started with questionnable vocal skills who ended up improving after debuting. There is no comparison between them as rookies and them now, and I think it's great. They got lot of backlash as babies, but now it got better. Most of the people picking on them now are using old performances or bad days (they had some this year also because they were overworked, and everyone knows no one will perform well everytime while being extra tired. Not long ago there was a video of Yeonjun more or less fainting after his solo performances at one of the year end show, I felt so bad for him... Like he literally feel on his knees after the lights got out and... Damn, no, you can't ask the moon to people who are exhausted to this point...), but they aren't bad. I wouldn't think about putting them in a best vocal group ranking, but they are doing their work, they can sing their own songs, they are improving, so what more can you ask ? It's like ITZY, I'm only waiting for them to nail their own songs, they do that very well, and it would be nasty to be like "Omg, but Lia isn't a Beyoncé-level vocalist". Yeah, no way, I would have never guessed, it's not like this group was sold as a performance-centered group from the beginning, wow... Asking for idols to be able to sing is a minimum, but also it's true realism should also be part of the discussion. All singers don't have the same voice type, the "main vocalist - lead vocalist - sub vocalist" thing actually is important in the way we should judge things, and groups don't always value the same things, you can't wait for the same things if it comes from a group selling themselves as "performance-centered" or "vocal-centered". There are hybrids of course, but critics about groups should not overlook how a group is marketed, how each member is considered with their position in the vocal performances of the group, and their vocal types. BTW, my favorite K-Pop vocalist will always be SHINee's Jonghyun. He's the most interesting to me, he had good technics, a very unique voice, and he played a lot with his voice. His work with SHINee is amazing, but it gets really surprising when you dive into his solo works. He's really someone who took the singer part seriously, his voice was as much of a musical instrument as the rest, he really did the most to modulate it to fit every idea he had. He's a monster because of how much he dared to do things other K-Pop singers wouldn't, he wasn't scared to explore new things, and I would not pretend he was the best K-Pop songer technics-wise, but he was for sure the boldest, and still is the boldest years after. He was bold as a person, and bold as a singer, truly one of a kind. (also, I think his impact as a singer can be heard today too from other people... Many idols are Shawols, and lots of them are open about being Taemin-biased, so most of the time people think every idol Shawol is a Taemate but... I think some of them are clearly Blingers. Like anyone familiar to Jonghyun's singing styles would have a "wait, that's a Blinger" moment while hearing TxT's Taehyun singing live freely. The way he sings is especially reminiscent of rookie Jonghyun with some tints of older Jonghyun in lots of stylistic choices.)
Yep! The actual lowest AFAB voice type is the “contralto,” which is where the choral “alto” section moniker derives from. Also, I’m pretty sure that mixed voice is a vocal register that BALANCES the chest voice and the head voice in different ratios (one’s voice can use more chest voice, another’s can use more head voice, yet another’s can be equally balanced, etc.), not just the ability to switch seamlessly between chest and head voice. Otherwise, this was a good video.
I feel like a lot of this conversation starts and ends with bias and misinformation. As someone who’s also studied music and vocals for 8+ years now, your ears really do get trained into spotting a good vocalist to a decent vocalist to a bad vocalist and with my bias aside I can tell when my faves vocals aren’t the best. Like for example Haechan of nct. One of my favorites kpop vocals is the undisputed best in dream (although these days I’m beginning to believe Chenle is coming up on him). He’s a brilliant vocalist and his voice is one of my favorites in kpop, but if I was to other sunflowers that he isn’t one of the best in amongst his peers they’d exile me from the fandom and call me a hater. It’s like the whole discography debate where fans berate you if you dare say you dislike a song from your ult.
The whole lsf hate train got on my nerves. Crticism of lsf is fine but the hate train and death threats as well as continuing to hate on them years later were over the line, if someone's a rap position i wouldn't expect them to be able to sing much. Why are we expecting people who trained in rap to sing like lead vocals and expecting sub vocalists to sound like lead or main vocalists. Not saying all idols shouldn't have the basics of dance, vocal, and even rap for some groups but we really can't compare and pit idols against each other just to push your agenda and hate on idols. At the end of the day, all idols are in different companies, different people, work with different trainers and coaches who train/teach differently, have diff. concepts and won't always sound how you expect, we don't know them or their voice better than them. Personally, it's not that serious and I'd rather chill and enjoy the music then stress on who's singing or not, who's a decent dancer, or whoever. Long as they are great in their assigned position I don't rlly care nor would ask idols to anything else then hate bc they don't sound the same as your faves or fit your extremely tight standards...like- what did you really expect trying to force a sub vocalist to sing as well as a lead or a person who's a rookie to be as stable as your veteran faves? I think a lot of Kpop Stans rush to hate and criticize without looking at what actually goes into singing and a full performance. Not hating btw, just sharing my two cents! Loved the video!
Stan’s will hate on other groups vocals like pls Bsfr the group your hating on has GOOD vocals they know how to sing. They’ll switch don’t get the difference between what they prefer and what’s objectively good
I’m sorry but OP is actually right, at least in pop context. It is worth noting that vocal technique in classical and contemporary setting is very different. For woman, classical tend to use head voice more, but contemporary tend to use chest voice more. For men, classical expect you to sing purely in chest voice, but contemporary can be more lenient. A countertenor is simply a man who use classical female singer technique (bringing head voice down). It has nothing to do with natural range. A lot of countertenor is baritone, not tenor. Also a man who can sing very high in woman range but in full chest voice is just high tenor, not countertenor.
Taemin is literally the perfect example of an idol actually going out of their way to train and perfect their vocals.
His vocals are litteraly insane ppl though he was lip syncing he was so good
SHINee as a group is arguably the most balanced vocal group. They might not have the best vocalist in the industry but all 5 of them are great. Key being a rapper/non-vocalist and being able to pull of a Bb5 as a baritone is beyond me.
@@SCRIABINIST BTOB and SHINee are literally the best groups vocally overall
@@SCRIABINIST i would argue jonghyun and onew are definitely some of the best vocalists in the industry
@@spacecatmeows More or less Jonghyun I think in terms of technical skills but Onew is really good as well. He's around the level of the top 4th gen main vocalists today when he's a lead vocal in SHINee
That time when an infamous kpop vocal analyst said a vocalist had no sense of pitch and then showed a clip of her perfectly pitching her voice as she flawlessly switched between her head voice and chest voice. 😭 Another favorite word is regression, he insisted an idol had gotten worse cause she hit high notes "better" in the past, except the idol stated in a live that she changed how she does her high notes because she was uncomfortable with that old technique.
I can't express enough how this video said everything I wanted to say for a looooong while, but was too scared for backlash. Thank you for debunking some myths on vocals and explaining to the people new to singing what it is and what is or isn't important. I am sooo sooo tired of these so called 'vocal expert' threads on reddit or videos on ktube. Vocal coaches give me nightmares on the k-react scene as well. They will ALWAYS say something nice and never say anything real. Then toxic fans use that to justify their faves can sing or that their faves are THE best.
Thanks you !!! I'm so happy to finally see an actual video about real vocal technique ❤
As an pianist and opera enthusiast, who had the chance to meet singers (pros and amateurs ) the system of a,b,c etc that i saw kpop fans using was infuriating me to the core. I was always redirecting some oblivious fans to the comete vocal institute site to explain to them that first NO, support isn't everything and No it isn't just diaphragm support only that matters for having a proper technique. Btw, happy new years to all 🎉🥳✨️
I've seen someone use the ABC system like they were grades for school 😭
Vocal tiers come from Kpop Vocal Analysis blog. It was used as shorthand to “rank” them in term of vocal abilities. The blog owner now dismissed it and discouraged against using it since it was too rigid and not nuanced enough. Kpop stans just saw it and ran with it, creating fan war and nonsense in online discussion.
Exit: You are also right about high notes. It is only just one aspect of what make someone good at singing, not everything. Low notes, Vocal runs, Register transition, Dynamics control, etc. Unfortunately Kpop songs with heavy dance are not suitable for showcasing those skill, and one can only be showcased on stand still performance.
You’re one ktuber that’s I’d even watch a 50 min video of!
This is facts!
No, voice types are NOT based on range. They're based on the tessitura of the singer. Zayn from One Direction can hit low baritone notes but he's actually a tenor.
This. Mariah Carey could sing crazy low note but she is still soprano. Or Dimash could sing crazy high note but is still baritone. It’s determined by passaggio in their voice (transition phase from “full chest” to “mixed”, and from “mixed” to “full head”)
such an interesting video, thank you for sharing!
This is everything I've wanted to say ever since I saw ktubers and kpop fans comment on idols' vocal skills. Thank you so much for putting out this video, because this is needed!!❤
This is such a great video, well articulated and really easy to understand.
The fact that you mentioned behaviors or situations that where very precise without always mentioning groups feels refreshing, it doesn't feel like you are defending nor attacking groups and idols. I think I have never agreed more with this type of video. I feel like nowadays a lot of criticism made by K-Pop Stan is too focused on being unapologetically biased and the waves of hate are never ending. This year vocals were the problem we'll see what kpop stans have to complain about next year, I feel there is always new criticism rising and new problems that suddenly appear in all the groups that are gaining popularity (I mean, I understand that being seen by more people makes it that there is more chances to receive criticism, but weirdly it's always one problem during a specific year).
Anyway that was really really good and you did an incredible job on multiple levels of this video, I think it really shows how hard you worked on it. So thank you for those thirty minutes of k-pop content that wasn't absolute brain rot and truly keep up the good work ❤
Correction. There are 6 main voice types. Females: soprano (majority of Kpop female vocalists), mezzo soprano (Moonbyul, Pink, Beyonce, Adele, etc.), and contralto (Cher, Nina Simone). Males have tenor, baritone, and bass. Alto is nit a voice type. It’s a position in choral singing. There are quite some altos in choirs simply because they’re underdeveloped sopranos.
Uploading this after a bigger ktuber just said Red Velvet are just ok vocalists….sometimes timing is just too good
I hate to shock you, but apart from Wendy, the rest are very so/so. They all have their individual very obvious struggles. Wendy is truly the glue whose backing harmonies tend to fix everything for all-group parts. Seulgi and Joy aren't that stable as some fans claim them to be. Irene is an advanced sub-vocalist at most, Joy and Seulgi are advanced regular vocalist tier singers and Yeri wouldn't be considered supported. So basically that leaves them with one real vocalist. I say that in pain because I LOVE these girls. I'm not an anti! I own multiple of their albums even and I would sell my real hair to meet Seulgi or Irene.
@@soomiSeulgi is high average same as monday and other kop idols
@@soomiokay but they sound good so does it matter? They don’t sound like illit or le serm like… seulgi can still hold up without any help and so can joy.. the only person in rv whose vocals r underdeveloped is Yeri
@@soomi i can't believe you are making an argument using tiers just when the video called them out for not being rooted in anything sensible :D. Everyone in Red Velvet can sing well live (heard loud and clear) and they have so many good harmonies, few of the groups that sing choruses together. I'd call that way above "just okay"
@@soomiwell….that opinion is something. Not gonna assume your vocal experience and or what genres you were trained in and what your preferred singing language is. So I’m gonna let you rock
Can we talk about EXO's Baekhyun who still takes vocal lessons while being a God tier vocalist?
Can u upload a video of you singing or doing covers? I'm curious to hear your voice
It's true high-notes aren't the only thing people should consider because... I still think high-notes are harder for Taehyun, but the fact is it's not what he does the best, and not what made him the main vocalist, and if people had a drop of good faith in them, they would see it.
Also YES, idols should still take vocal lessons after debuting, especially if they are lacking, but also if they want to continue improving the most ! The fact idols like Taemin are an exception is actually BAD. Like maybe the Taemin level of improvement is too much to ask, but other vocalists also improved after debuting, like BTS' Jin and EXO's Kai did improve after debuting thanks to their own work. Even idols who have a good reputation as vocalists like Baekhyun of EXO still take vocal lessons. And even Taemin is actually still working on his vocals even though most thought "oh, now he improved, it's good enough"... I do appreciate hearing artists who are still seeking to improve 16 years + into their career, hearing improvement from older artists is the most thrilling thing to me as a fan.
The "blame the company" thing I think works in some cases, like for rookie idols I would say... They are the one who picked the idols, they know if they are struggling to sing, and they are the one handling the trainee's programs (and if vocal lessons are only a tiny part in the program, it's hard for the trainees for are often very young and go to school next to their training to find the time to work alone. Most are kids.). When the idols are older into their career, then I would actually point fingers at the idol, but not for the rookies.
Like some rookie idols were good from the start when it comes to vocals like SNSD, Mamamoo, NMIXX, SHINee, B.A.P and all... But it's not the case for all groups, especially in more recent generations.
TxT are an example for me of an idol group whose member started with questionnable vocal skills who ended up improving after debuting. There is no comparison between them as rookies and them now, and I think it's great. They got lot of backlash as babies, but now it got better. Most of the people picking on them now are using old performances or bad days (they had some this year also because they were overworked, and everyone knows no one will perform well everytime while being extra tired. Not long ago there was a video of Yeonjun more or less fainting after his solo performances at one of the year end show, I felt so bad for him... Like he literally feel on his knees after the lights got out and... Damn, no, you can't ask the moon to people who are exhausted to this point...), but they aren't bad. I wouldn't think about putting them in a best vocal group ranking, but they are doing their work, they can sing their own songs, they are improving, so what more can you ask ? It's like ITZY, I'm only waiting for them to nail their own songs, they do that very well, and it would be nasty to be like "Omg, but Lia isn't a Beyoncé-level vocalist". Yeah, no way, I would have never guessed, it's not like this group was sold as a performance-centered group from the beginning, wow...
Asking for idols to be able to sing is a minimum, but also it's true realism should also be part of the discussion. All singers don't have the same voice type, the "main vocalist - lead vocalist - sub vocalist" thing actually is important in the way we should judge things, and groups don't always value the same things, you can't wait for the same things if it comes from a group selling themselves as "performance-centered" or "vocal-centered". There are hybrids of course, but critics about groups should not overlook how a group is marketed, how each member is considered with their position in the vocal performances of the group, and their vocal types.
BTW, my favorite K-Pop vocalist will always be SHINee's Jonghyun. He's the most interesting to me, he had good technics, a very unique voice, and he played a lot with his voice. His work with SHINee is amazing, but it gets really surprising when you dive into his solo works. He's really someone who took the singer part seriously, his voice was as much of a musical instrument as the rest, he really did the most to modulate it to fit every idea he had. He's a monster because of how much he dared to do things other K-Pop singers wouldn't, he wasn't scared to explore new things, and I would not pretend he was the best K-Pop songer technics-wise, but he was for sure the boldest, and still is the boldest years after. He was bold as a person, and bold as a singer, truly one of a kind.
(also, I think his impact as a singer can be heard today too from other people... Many idols are Shawols, and lots of them are open about being Taemin-biased, so most of the time people think every idol Shawol is a Taemate but... I think some of them are clearly Blingers. Like anyone familiar to Jonghyun's singing styles would have a "wait, that's a Blinger" moment while hearing TxT's Taehyun singing live freely. The way he sings is especially reminiscent of rookie Jonghyun with some tints of older Jonghyun in lots of stylistic choices.)
Great video, but Alto is a choir role not a voice type!
Yep! The actual lowest AFAB voice type is the “contralto,” which is where the choral “alto” section moniker derives from.
Also, I’m pretty sure that mixed voice is a vocal register that BALANCES the chest voice and the head voice in different ratios (one’s voice can use more chest voice, another’s can use more head voice, yet another’s can be equally balanced, etc.), not just the ability to switch seamlessly between chest and head voice. Otherwise, this was a good video.
I feel like a lot of this conversation starts and ends with bias and misinformation. As someone who’s also studied music and vocals for 8+ years now, your ears really do get trained into spotting a good vocalist to a decent vocalist to a bad vocalist and with my bias aside I can tell when my faves vocals aren’t the best. Like for example Haechan of nct. One of my favorites kpop vocals is the undisputed best in dream (although these days I’m beginning to believe Chenle is coming up on him). He’s a brilliant vocalist and his voice is one of my favorites in kpop, but if I was to other sunflowers that he isn’t one of the best in amongst his peers they’d exile me from the fandom and call me a hater. It’s like the whole discography debate where fans berate you if you dare say you dislike a song from your ult.
The whole lsf hate train got on my nerves. Crticism of lsf is fine but the hate train and death threats as well as continuing to hate on them years later were over the line, if someone's a rap position i wouldn't expect them to be able to sing much. Why are we expecting people who trained in rap to sing like lead vocals and expecting sub vocalists to sound like lead or main vocalists. Not saying all idols shouldn't have the basics of dance, vocal, and even rap for some groups but we really can't compare and pit idols against each other just to push your agenda and hate on idols. At the end of the day, all idols are in different companies, different people, work with different trainers and coaches who train/teach differently, have diff. concepts and won't always sound how you expect, we don't know them or their voice better than them.
Personally, it's not that serious and I'd rather chill and enjoy the music then stress on who's singing or not, who's a decent dancer, or whoever. Long as they are great in their assigned position I don't rlly care nor would ask idols to anything else then hate bc they don't sound the same as your faves or fit your extremely tight standards...like- what did you really expect trying to force a sub vocalist to sing as well as a lead or a person who's a rookie to be as stable as your veteran faves? I think a lot of Kpop Stans rush to hate and criticize without looking at what actually goes into singing and a full performance.
Not hating btw, just sharing my two cents! Loved the video!
I'm sorry but either you were never a soprano or you're still a soprano. You don't just change your voice type after a disease.
THANK YOU
Stan’s will hate on other groups vocals like pls Bsfr the group your hating on has GOOD vocals they know how to sing. They’ll switch don’t get the difference between what they prefer and what’s objectively good
A male voice that can be compared with soprano would be a countertenor. Tenors are far behind
I’m sorry but OP is actually right, at least in pop context. It is worth noting that vocal technique in classical and contemporary setting is very different. For woman, classical tend to use head voice more, but contemporary tend to use chest voice more. For men, classical expect you to sing purely in chest voice, but contemporary can be more lenient.
A countertenor is simply a man who use classical female singer technique (bringing head voice down). It has nothing to do with natural range. A lot of countertenor is baritone, not tenor. Also a man who can sing very high in woman range but in full chest voice is just high tenor, not countertenor.