Seven Fatalities in 3 Separate G.A. Crashes on Sunday 1 Oct 2023
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 มิ.ย. 2024
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Aviation Safety network: aviation-safety.net/
Air Safety Institute: / @airsafetyinstitute
FlyWire Interview: • C210 Engine Failure Af...
Lake Placid News: www.lakeplacidnews.com/news/l...
Big Tire Pilots: / 136557813204682 - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
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Juan, I was waiting for this one. Not with enjoyment but with total sadness. Russ Francis who was flying the airplane that Dick was killed in was a early mentor of mine and taught me the fundamentals of flying. I was from Livermore, CA where my dad and Russ had their airplanes in hangars. I was a typical airport rat growing up at the airport spending all my time washing and waxing airplanes for rides and listening to the "old timers" talk of glory. Russ took me up several times in his Stearman and P-51. This was while he was a football star playing for the 49ers. He was never full of himself, down to earth and became a father figure to me after my dad was killed flying his T-34 in a air show routine with Julie Clark. After my dad died the airport community took me in with Russ and Dick Enherhardt being the main two people who helped me stay grounded and taught me the skills of flying. Those days from the time I was 7 or 8 years old until I was 18 and left to join the Army were some of the best days of my life. Time and distance did its thing and I lost contact with Russ and the rest of the Livermore crew like Jack Hovey who owned a beautiful P-51 desert camo with a bright red spinner and Spikey Rodriguez who owned a beautiful T 6 but I never forgot the kindness and generosity of their time and energy to take me flying in their priceless warbirds and take me cow chasing in the back hills of the Altamont Pass mountains (Yes FAA we were always above 500 feet) haha...ya right.
I ran into Russ at a air show in 2012 when I was back home from my last deployments to Afghanistan and it was like we never lost touch. He was generous and caring as he always was. It's a sad day for me today but I know Russ made a impact on this world. Not only on this kid but many, many other people and he was doing what he loved the most. I know his family and friends are hurting right now and I wish I could wrap my arms around all of them as they did for me when I lost my dad.
Thanks for allowing me to add my thoughts and personal story to this tragedy, Juan.
Blue Skies Russ and Rich!
Well written, sir. Appreciate it. Sorry you lost your friend.
Has it been determined who was on the controls when the crash (apparent stall ) occurred?
(((((☮🙏💫)))))
Cardinals have no wing struts and no way on that load so troll somewhere else...
@@bradfordparker6639 reports indicate Russ.
I so enjoyed his calm and reasoned AOPA presentations. RIP, sir.
Agreed, the news hit me pretty hard. Seemed like a really nice guy.
How sad and ironic the impossible turn took out an AOPA VP, he has sacrificed his life to save thousands from this lesson we hope.
How terrible. I always enjoyed his presentations as well.
True, such a terrible loss.
You took the words out of my mouth; I'm not a pilot but I enjoyed his videos immensely.
McSpadden’s loss is a hard one. I’ve watched every video the AOPA put out. It’s a harsh reminder that nobody is immune.
So very sorry to hear of these losses. One of my first instructors taught me to be always looking for a place to put the plane down. Why did he stress that? He had been a pilot in WW1 and had learned the hard way not to ever get too confident. In 33T hours I have lost a total of 9 (nine) engines. 2 were in single engine aircraft, and thankfully, both were at a reasonable altitude. One was when I had just 150 hours in my log, was a Piper Tri-Pacer, The 135hp engine swallowed a valve over the area of Mullan Pass and stopped in two revs. What that pilot in the video said about pitch angle after the engine quits is true. I was lucky to spot what first appeared to be an open area between the pine trees along the side of a hill. It turned out to be part of a abandoned homestead. Like the oldtimer's say, find the softest place to put it down and fly the plane till it stops moving. Thank you Juan for your excellent work.
Thanks for sharing that with us.
What kind of engines were those nine you lost? All piston? or were there a few turbines too?
Do you think having that first engine out with less than 150hrs contributed to the success in the following engine failures?
I've had two engines fail with less than 150 hours. My instructor also trained me to always have a landing spot chosen, lower the nose the moment the engine stutters and maintain airspeed.
Only 2 were turbines. They were in order, 75HP Lycoming, 135HP Lycoming, Jacobs 220, Pratt R985, Rolls Royce Gypsy Queen MK II (2), Continental IO 540 (if my memory serves) , P&W PT-6, P&W JT8D-217. On takeoff roll, engine had just come out of overhaul. @@SuperPhunThyme9
9? That’s crazy but a testament to your skill in safely navigating these emergencies. Like the other commenter I’m very curious in the set up of these aircraft that had the failures
Waiting for this. RIP Richard, thank you for all of your lessons and wisdom throughout the years with AOPA. Fly high.
I fly an AA1. It sinks like a rock when you pull power. I have experimented at altitude with power off 180 degree turns, and at best glide I lose 1000'! I have also done simulated engine failures on take-off and the amount of push required is eye opening to maintain best glide speed! I have taken many pilots flying including airline/military types and the take off briefing I always give: "if we lose the engine on takeoff below 1000' we go straight ahead with gentle turns to avoid obstacles". No one ever argues or questions my brief after I tell them how much altitude I lose in a 180. Thanks for one of the best aviation youtube channels out there!
You brought up a great point. Whenever you have two pilots in the cockpit, the responsibilities have to be clearly identified. I had this in my emergency brief with my DPE and my CFI and I won't stop having it. The last thing I want is a struggle or ambiguity in the event of a real emergency.
One of my friends is a test pilot, Check Captain, CFII, DPE, and has flown with some very senior and experienced pilots both military and civilian.. It takes a lot of experience and since she was a young pilot, and flown with some legends of aviation, including astronauts, 4-Star Generals in the cockpit with her. Proper pre-flight briefings, CRM, and procedural adherence is the key to flight safety.
And yes, She did have an emergency landing a after an F-22 pilot lost situational awareness, and pulls up directly in front of her, resulting in severe wake turbulence, compressor stalls. The one thing she remembers was with a General in the back seat of her F-5, a highly experienced test pilot, shuttle commander... after it was clear that the jet was recoverable, he confirms the briefed altitude numbers, confirms that one engine has recovered. The aircraft made a successful arrested emergency landing.
It's important to note the critical numbers are 10,000ft, 6,000ft and 2,000ft. It didn't matter that it was a General flying with her, or a young student, loosing control in a high performance jet below 6,000ft without recovering being assured means it's time to eject out. 2,000ft without assured recovery or option for safe emergency landing means it's time to eject. If recovery is not likely, and it's below 10,000ft it's time to eject. These altitudes, or variations depending on the mission, are briefed before the flight.
This happened to a friend of mine (a CFI). He was in the right seat of a 172 when the engine quit at 1000 feet. The pilot (owner) started screaming. My friend said "Mind if I fly?" He was able to put it down in a gravel pit. All survived, and the plane was fixable.
Juan you are clearly top notch. Your content is consistently free of bluster and ego and drama which is truly singular and is highly appreciated. Your professional analysis is always on point. You elevate us all and I wanted you to know how greatly I appreciate it.
As a new pilot with about 100 hours myself, Richard was the face of aviation safety for me. The frustration in Juan’s explanation of the forbidden 180° maneuver is something I feel as well. To lose a pilot to the same maneuver (allegedly) that they so adamantly advocated against is disheartening.
I received single pilot PC-12 training at DFW Flight Safety and it was found if you attain 800-1000 AGL after takeoff a 180 degree return was very sensible after engine loss. For example at KMEM on 18R a left turn for 36C was very sensible and in fact had to add drag to land in the first 1000 feet.
basic laws of physics and the fact that banking (vs level wings) results in loss of potential altitude (all things equal),
It just make me think that they made a split second decision, and they didn't have enough time to take a moment to think. They seemed to be excellent pilots. May their memories be a blessing.
Richard’s loss is absolutely horrendous for the aviation community. His influence on me and so many other pilots is incalculable, incredibly saddened by this accident and the others described in this video. My deepest condolences go out to all the families.
The last thing he taught us was that it can happen to anyone. That's how I've been looking at it.
Yep the loss of Jimmy Franklin and Bobby Younkin
still is still painful after all these years. 2005.
I just checked and, yes, you find a lot of experienced pilots and people online saying that the "impossible turn" is in fact possible.
No, it is not. Don't post that it is, don't feed this idiocy. Call out every person every time you see it. We lose dozens of people every year due to this insanity. You are not in a glider and your craft falls like a rock the second you lose all power. Scrubbing off most of your speed to bank in any direction is absolutely asking to get in serious trouble when you have none at all to spare.
Don't be "that guy" who counts on landing on the double zero on the roulette wheel when it's your life on the line.
@@josephoberlander excellent comment.
Why risk it? I agree. In this case Dan Gryder is exactly right. To me its rather hot dogish to attempt such a maneuver, all things considered.@@josephoberlander
I had the engine out procedures pounded into my head during flight training in the 1970’s. 1. Establish best glide speed. 2. Find a landing spot and commit to it. 3. Communicate if you have the time. 4. Troubleshoot the engine problem if you have the time. If you don’t do #1 then the other steps don’t matter.
Engine out on takeoff means you land straight ahead regardless of obstacles.
Me too. Soloed in 77
Well spoken, Juan. We see the same accidents again and again.
And again.
The Cherokee 140 looked like a stall/spin. Wreckage was all in one place flat on its' belly.
My father had his carb ice up in his Baby Great Lakes once. He told me about the incident, and a friend of mine who lived nearby actually witnessed the event (when I told the friend about the incident, he responded "I SAW THAT!" : )
Can't recall what altitude the engine stall occurred at, but he immediately dove STRAIGHT towards the ground. During the dive, the prop made a couple of half-hearted strokes before the airspeed became sufficient to kick the engine back off. Had it NOT re-fired, he had all the speed he needed to level out and land on the straight and fairly desolate two-lane road below. He probably had the new Lake injector fitted the next time he went up : )
Keep in mind that my old man taught HIMSELF to fly at age 14 (FIRST TIME at the controls was a SOLO flight!), and died of old age a couple of years ago at 85. The incident described above is an example of HOW HE MANAGED THAT : )
I heard about the Lake Placid crash on Sunday, in my case because of the plane owner - Russ Francis, a retired player from the team I follow. So sorry that the person he took with him was a vital member of the aircraft safety community, what an extra kick in the ribs that is.
Not sure if I would call it "Took with". The emergency happened to them both, it wasn't the owner's choice.
Juan is so thorough he even mentions that the dog wasn't on board. I appreciate this level of attention to detail!
Back in the '90s, my instructor was testing a Mooney that just had a major engine overhaul on its carb engine. The mechanic was in the right seat. The incident happened at Freeway airport (Bowie, MD), departing 180 to the South which is mostly a heavy tree area. After take-off, the airplane's engine failed at 500 feet altitude. My instructor elected to keep the airplane straight and guided it between two trees. The instructor pilot suffered back injuries, whilst the mechanic walked away without a scratch. Both survived.
There’s a book called “Stick and Rudder.” In it, there’s a diagram of what happens when you pull back the stick without power. The plane does go up briefly and abruptly, but peaks quickly and then it immediately sinks like a stone or other randomly shaped heavy object.
You have to keep the plane flying no matter what. Wind over and under the wings not broadside to them.
I train my students to pitch to best glide as soon as possible. Often times, that means pulling back on the controls and trading airspeed for altitude until you reach best glide. This can buy you valuable seconds to make decisions.
My SE takeoff brief consists of many things, but always “we expect an engine failure on every takeoff. When it happens, we say ‘there it is’ and we PUSH.” We look 30° left to 30° right and we make a decision.
“Stick and Rudder” probably saved my life. About a dozen flights after I soloed in a Schweizer, 2-33 glider I flew a Schweizer 1-26 in medium thermals. I was circling in a thermal at just above stall speed at ~3,000 ft AGL and in an instant all I could see were trees. A sentence from “Stick and Rudder” played back in my mind. “If anything goes wrong in a turn, push the stick forward.” That’s what I did and the 1-26 immediately started to circle again as though nothing happened. Back on the ground my instructor reminded me about aileron stalls.
@@wh4818 Stalling in airplanes is like sliding in a car. The proper corrective action goes against instinct and requires you to override it in order to survive it.
@@cptn_chromo3189 no no way.. no comparison to car sliding... omg gtfo
I got my pilots license in the Cherokee 140 in Provo, Utah (elevation 4497’). We never flew with more than 2 people. I don’t recall what engine those 140’s had, but the FBO at Provo considered it a 2 place aircraft at that elevation.
Well damn, I hadn't heard about Richard. Jaw dropped when he came up on this video! Contributed so much to aviation safety, I've learnt so much from watching him. Can't believe he went this way 😢
Sobering but on so many GA minds this week. I fly nothing but piston single off airport and had a moment when I heard about McSpadden where I questioned why I fly. It is very dangerous but also unspeakably beautiful. What I get from flying is sheer joy and adventure. I stay current, fly day VFR only and am well trained but never underestimate the risk - as Mr. Gann said so well fate is the hunter. Thank you for posting this Juan.
BTW @realblancolirio. You cost me $5000 by showing off your new Honda Trail 125 and "forcing" me to get my own. I am now the happiest and oldest juvenile delinquent in my town.
Juan,
Thank you for this. I still can get over or believe that Colonel McSpadden is gone. I am so sadded. RIP and condolences to his family.
Paul (in MA)
5:08: The ex NFL player was Russ Francis, a star tight end in the NFL in the 1970s and 80s. His death was widely reported in the sports media over the weekend but no mention was made of the other passenger. So for many of us "ordinary people" Richard's piece in this is new news.
Not a pilot, Juan, but I support aviation as much as my limited means will allow me. (Former A&P and current EAA member). Hearing of Richard's loss was absolutely baffling to me, and sad. Its a huge loss to AOPA, their members, and general aviation. I sincerely hope we can learn more about what exactly happened here, although that's not likely.
God bless you for what you do, my friend, and do everything in your power not to become a statistic yourself.
I flew (med crew on a rotor) in Moab quite a bit and I wouldn't want to fly that area without Night Vision, especially if you had an emergency and were trying to look for somewhere to put it down.
Yes, immediately north, east and west of the field there is nothing, I bet spatial disorientation was the cause, it's likely an overcast layer then too. No visible stars. It was a "weather day" in much of Utah Sunday afternoon and evening.
Sometimes you get jaded watching these, or those from Grider, or Flywire, etc. But man, Richard McSpadden is truly shocking. I gobbled up as many of his videos as I could watch. RIP sir, you were a fine gentleman and outstanding aviator.
Thank you, Juan, for the gentle but firm reminder that we don’t need to take risks in our (recreational) flying. I am sorry for your loss.
Tragic, what a terrible weekend. RIP.
Thanks for the analysis Juan, and thanks for the empathy you have for your fellow pilots and friends
I cant imagine how hard this one must have been to make.
I've flown a lot of 140s, and all of them were either 140, or 150hp O-320s. I spent a lot of hours flying them in the mountains in the South Island of NZ. They were a 2 person aircraft in that kind of terrain, as the lack of power would make life pretty dangerous if you were anywhere near MTOW. Night flying an underpowered single in this kind of environment in my opinion is crazy.
I read somewhere they're not recommended for flights exceeding 1,000 miles (cramped cabin-space).
@@danielcarlson800considering a Cherokee wont even do 1,000 miles on a tank of gas, that's a given
I own and teach in a PA-28-140. I am an ATP/CFII, and would have been scared to death to even do that trip in my airplane. My family owned a CE-340 and a Turbo Aztec. In those airplanes i still would do that leg during the day. Thats with an airplane with a nice autopilot system. The airplane is close to serial # of my 67 Cherokee, so the panel isnt even a standard 6 pack. Night, in the mountains, with a 150 or 160 HP airplane, with your family aboard, after a 3 hour leg, after a meal? The level of negligence is almost criminal. Poor family trusting that guy.
With 4 people and full fuel was probably at or over max GW. Donald was not a small person. Juan mentioned that a 140 with a 180HP engine would be OK. That is true however there is no indication the plane had some sort of conversion to a 180 hp engine (I looked up the registration). Otherwise, it would be a Cherokee 180. There is no place for baggage in a 140. It was designed to be a basic or instrument training aircraft. That is a long trip for 4 people in such a cramped space-especially the rear passengers.
I’ve got a few hours on a Cherokee 140. Operating from a base airport at 3000’ elevation, that thing was a handful to climb to 6000’ with just two people onboard and full tanks. I can’t imagine taking off at 6000’ with 4 POB and full fuel. Once I got into a downdraft below a smallish TCU and the darn thing wouldn’t put on a positive climb rate even with full throttle. Wayyyy underpowered.
I have often heard my dad reapet the mnemonic he was taught in the late 70:s for engine failure. In our language, FFK, which I would say translates to SFF, Speed, Field, Fuel.
Stay above stall speed.
Look for a field.
Check the fuel tank selector.
It’s hard to report on these Juan-thanks for what you do. Landing for refueling at high density airports is usually pretty easy. It’s the takeoff where performance is a factor. For the turn back, I was stunned to hear they were attempting to return right after takeoff. Hard to imagine. RIP and condolences to all.
Lost an engine in a Cessna 150 and fortunately was over the plains of Kansas had plenty of choices. It was just before dusk and 30 minuets later and things would not have been so great. That taught me 2 lessons early in my flying career. Don't fly single engine in conditions where you cannot safely land in an emergency. i.e. at night, over mountains. I later added low IFR and at airports with no escape paths.
I once read that Lindbergh’s advise on flying a single engine aircraft at night was “ wear a parachute “.
Moral of the story- crashes can happen to anyone. Never think you are invincible.
...or that lucky!
Why I will never fly aircraft! I’m much too dumb!
@@HalJikaKick Yes a man has got to know his limitations. My step mother and i successfully talked my dad (who was no dummy) out of becoming a pilot, even after he had purchased part of an RV kit, because he has always been far too absent minded. I can remember that when i was a child and young adult, he was notorious for running out of gas time and again whether on his own time (often with family) or at work - and he worked for the Dept. of Transportation.
You don't have to be dumb for flying to not be right for you, my friend - just not smart in the right ways.
I can't maintain concentration for more than a few minutes.
Imagine flying a plane without autopilot..
😱🛩️💥
100% correct
Thanks for the tough reports, Juan. I agree with you mostly about the straight ahead, if at Vy or even climb out airspeed. Even as a crop duster having experiences thousands of times how much dynamic neutral stability pitches the nose down (no loading the wing in steep turns of 1 g by release of back pressure) in steep turns to return to the crop field. The advantage of both Ag experience in the field and Ag experience on takeoff (I do exactly the same in any airplane at any weight) is that we always have zoom reserve airspeed and just over the obstruction altitude. Nine engine failures at 200' AGL or lower were not really very dangerous because I always had this zoom reserve airspeed, this cruise or near cruise kinetic energy. Airspeed, not altitude is life down here. Scott's, Gunny's, friend in the 210 engine failure on takeoff reminded me of the pitch down and yes, his lack of zoom reserve airspeed would have been real scary for us Ag and pipeline guys. He had enough altitude (altitude is time) and time to not consider what was just there so nearby. Low, we see obvious survivable landing zones in the very near hemisphere in the six or so seconds we have. Yet, because we have zoom reserve airspeed form ground effect in the field, ground effect over the entire long runway, or even just cruise airspeed at 200' on pipeline patrol, we may even climb a bit in the maneuvering to that very obvious survivable landing zone. In those six seconds we are, I was at least, all but two times high and fast requiring full rudder to the stop forward slip to make the beginning of that very near landing zone. I never considered going back, the impossible turn. I always had airspeed and not altitude. I am a dunce who had many incidents and accidents. But I had no fatalities. I truly believe, and therefore teach that way, that my 17,000 hours of low altitude orientation and only a couple thousand of high altitude orientation helped me stay alive. I truly believe we need more low altitude orientation for around the airport operations. A briefing yes, but a high altitude briefing is not as relevant.
I asked Mr. McSpadden for help with this concept, and I ask you as well. You who have great clout have great responsibility. Again, I agree that straight ahead with pitch down from Vy pitch attitude is the safest. For those willing to investigate low altitude orientation, safe maneuvering flight techniques, the law of the roller coaster and what the airplane wants to do in a turn from Stick and Rudder, and such, I truly believe very high success (no fatality in light airplanes) is possible.
Hi Mr. Dulin. The problem is Mild Maneuvering Training by FAA Standards. GRM we can teach the fake way at 1,000 agl and cruise speed and no winds at all. 3 stupid GRM maneuvers you need, and You will learn nothing but FAA says is ok. No EFATO or LOTOT is required by FAA. Wonder why so many pilot errors on them? Many pilots with 10,000 hours and more dont know EFATO or LOTOT landings. No spins and only 2 wimpy turns for CFI' by another wimpy CFI is accepted by FAA, no real go arounds when low and full flaps, CFI's can sign any one with a go around from a 1,000 feet high final and is accepted by FAA. Mild Maneuvering Training makes mild pilots that will crash when things get harder.
Lots of fake training is accepted by FAA so they wimps can retain their Mild Maneuvering Pilot license too. Oh and more. I forgot, you dont need to do real landings after an emergency in USA to pass FAA requirements, ONLY APPROACHES TO A LANDING AREA ARE REQUIRED. STUPID, BUT FAKE PILOT TRAINING IS RAMPANT IN USA. And the every 2 years Flight Review can be a couple of normal landings on a C72 on a 7,000 feet long runway and you are ok to put 3 fat members of the family to MTOW and fly night VFR too. that is all legal. Im glad i retired from this corrupt USA GA. Saw too many bad pilots and was almost killed by mid air 3 times by idiots with a license. FAA loves mediocre pilots like they are.
One thing that is really mentioned, and does not appear in that operating manual, is the need on a constant speed prop aircraft to pull the propellor pitch lever back to full coarse (low rpm) pitch. This massively reduces drag. How do I know... I was checking out someone on a Piper Arrow, reviewing engine failure drills.. (also have to inhibit the automatic landing gear drop on this type). pulled the propellor to full coarse just to see what happened, and it was like taking the brakes off, and maybe halved the pitch attitude needed to maintain speed. Of course , the engine has to be turning, windmilling, in order for there to be oil pressure to move the prop blades. I was amazed at the difference it makes. The guy in the 210 didn't mention this , and the fact he had to pitch down so much suggests he wasn't aware of it. The test was done at 4000 ft AGL, fuel turned off. recovery at 2000 AGL
This longtime sim pilot went on an introductory flight two Saturdays ago. First time flying a real plane. Two things stayed in my mind: The exhilaration of flying and a newfound level of respect. There's no shame in playing it safe or keeping a healthy safety margin. If not for yourself, then at least for others.
I am so sorry. For the loss of your friend. And so grateful for your no BS videos. You have saved so many families and friends from the suffering of loss. Your Videos are straight to the point. And clear and instructive. Thank you for all you do!
All the family in a tin-can is a no-go. LSA's 2 seat config. keep a lot of folks out of trouble.
I have an FAASTeam Seminar I have given for years banging the same drum as you on the Impossible Turn. I too lost a good friend from college when he joined the Navy and after serving a tour in P3s was going to be a recruiter. As part of his recruiting duties he would give rides in the T34 and while being checked out by a Navy IP, the IP was reportedly demonstrating a turn back after engine failure and stalled. Chip left a wife and young son behind.
Been watching your channel for many years. Though not a pilot, my condolences to all involved. Thank you Sir Juan for continuing to put this out on youtube
I used to own a Cherokee 140 with a 180 hp engine and constant speed prop. N6781J if memory serves. I think the engine was the Lycoming O-360-A1A, the old Commanche engine. There was a supplemental airworthiness certificate for the mod. It had really good climb performance, and was fun to fly, but the certificate only increased the max payload by about 50 lbs as I recall.
Very sad to hear about this tragedy.
Found some notes from 34 years ago when flying my 140 with the 180-constant speed prop STC. Interpolating, I would estimate rate of climb at 5500 ft density altitude as about 500 fpm. Vx was 67 as I recall. Ready to be corrected if someone still has the actual curves.
Looking at the flight path, the plane made a rather tight right turn immediately after TO. You wouldn't get that ROC in a tight turn, of course. The airspeed was way above Vx, so he wasn't climbing at all much of the short flight.
Such a sharp turn on take off after dark in the desert could be disorienting for someone not IFR current. I suspect this will turn out to be visual spacial disorientation, more than aircraft limitations, assuming he did have the 180 STC.
Rest in peace to all these aviators and their loved ones.
Thx Juan for the coverage.
I’m not a pilot, but wonder if the reason why so many want to return to the runway is to prevent the expense/damage to the aircraft if they land in a choppy field. Also wonder if there high-level experience made them feel like they could pull it off. It’s often said that the best swimmers are the ones who drown because they overestimate their skills in the water.
Sad tragedy in Moab. When its night down there, there are almost no ground lights so one could easily get disoriented. My guess is this was a stall spin crash or CFIT crash. Maybe a case of getthereitis
Early sunset catches everyone by surprise in the fall. Sort of leaning to the getthereitis. We're the go-go-go generation and G.A. still is not the flying car everyone wished we had by now.
I’m from this general area and it gets real dark with no moon. I remember a flight back from St George over the west desert of Utah and for an hour it was straight instrument flying. Complete black hole. There were a few random lights around but a single light in a mass of black doesn’t mean anything. Might as well be a star in the sky.
Looking at the satellite view around the airport, there are multiple golf courses and fields surrounding the airfield. There are also forested areas. It seems to me that the pilot either had not briefed the location of the golf courses before the flight or was trying to keep the airplane from getting hurt and didn't want to land off field.
Great comments on the Moab accident. I was thinking the same thing. I live in southern Utah as well. I don't fly SEL at night here as a personal rule. Too many things can go wrong and being able to see gives you that little bit more of an advantage. Not worth the risk to fly at night especially with others on board.
When I saw the report yesterday about McSpadden's crash, I was stunned to learn it was during an attempted return to the runway. I have to think there was something else going on that we don't yet know about. But I do know we often make bad decisions when the crap is hitting he fan.
It’s easy to commit to plan and stick to it way too long after it’s clear it’s not going to work out…
My piper 140 had the 0320 engine 150 hp on a good day. It was only capable of 3 adults with full fuel. It struggled to climb even down low when at gross. At 8000 feet climb was almost petered out. It's possible to me the moab crash was not able to out climb terrain. If you don't know your exact ground track in high terrain the big rocks can come up to meet you. Specially at night.
Sounded like another exceptionally painful video to shoot Juan 😢. Thanks for reviewing these terrible tragedies. All we can do is learn learn learn. No doubt if those pilots could speak to us now, they'd be saying the same. x
Richard helped me appreciate, love and respect flight. Unbelievable. Sad. Such a loss for the aviation community and the World as a whole. 😢
My T/O briefing is to land straight ahead with an engine failure. I’ve got nearly 40 years of Flying experience, and I have never thought returning to the airport was a safe option. In addition, your comments regarding night flying are correct; instruments are a necessary component.
Juan, I got my private ticket in a Cherokee 180 out of Albuquerque, NM. We always considered it to be a good 2-3 place airplane. A Cherokee 140 does not have a 180hp engine! It has a 150 hp and was originally certified as a 2 place airplane and the gross weight was later increased to allow 4 place. I would consider a 140 to be extremely marginal on a good day in Moab with 4 on board. Night VFR with 4 on board is playing Russian roulette.
As a Piper guy, most of us consider a 140 as a trainer more than a cross country plane, although they can do it with two people and flight planning
Piper designed and marketed the 140 as a "2+2", i.e. 2 adults and 2 children of a couple of cats or something.
@@thekill2509 unfortunately they didn’t take into account McDonald’s and the effect of going there often 😂.
I saw many of his videos. They were excellent. I didn’t realize this accident involved him. RIP to them all.
Hey Juan great reporting as always. For what it's worth I found the for sale ad for the Piper Cherokee and it listed the 160 horsepower upgrade. That's a common one dropping in the bigger pistons and cylinders to get you to 160. It also had a power flow exhaust which probably added another five to eight horsepower. And vortex generators on the wings.
That said, as a Cherokee 140 pilot myself, I don't understand buying that aircraft for a growing family of four doing high country cross country. A damn shame.
Night flying without instrument rating sounds about like driving down mountain roads with your headlights turned off. - Kind of terrifying. Calling it a day and getting a motel would have surely kept him alive.
I too had a PA28-140 with the 160HP upgrade and a PF exhaust. The "adds HP" thing is a common misconception with the Powerflow exhaust. The reality is that the stock exhaust robs the engine of 3-5HP, and the Powerflow exhaust just gives that back. Also, the difference between 160HP and 180HP in that airframe is significant. 4 people near max gross with 180HP as long as you are within the Density Altitude/climb chart envelope and give yourself some margin for downdrafts and wind shear. 160HP, nope I wouldn't try it.
Excellent, detailed & visually stunning light aircraft fatal pilot decisions. Thank you, Juan! Your service to all pilots safety decisions is truly exceptional!
I flew Aerobatics - to be as safe as possible. But I always knew that flying is high risk.
Good review Captain Brown.
The gentleman in Perdue's video is alive because he managed to miss hitting all the tree trunks with the fuse on the way in. A few feet any which way and the firewall would've been in his lap all the same.
The Lake Placid accident now seems to have been a northbound departure, which would have put them over the town. How high they got, what direction they initially went once airborne and what options that all left, I don't know. They almost certainly made the turn and ran out of glide. A few feet any which way can change the outcome dramatically, again.
There is another golf course north they may well have been right over, but I have to say golf courses are pretty busy places at 4 in the afternoon and to simple suggest stuffing it into someone's back 9 is the superior option for preservation of life doesn't always sit well with me. If I die turning back in the airplane I voluntarily jumped into, I had some say in that outcome. If some poor schmuck dies while I'm saving my bacon putting it down on their golf cart, or their SUV, or in their living room, they had zero say.
All this is to say I don't believe it can ever be so cut and dry. My home field is flat land and farms on three sides. I don't ever think about returning to the runway. I have many options. I don't envy the decision they had to make.
The part that scares me is when we listen to the experts (I am NOT an expert...and probably never will be) who keep telling us over and over again about how we should not consider the "impossible turn"....and then people do it and die in the process. In a check ride with an qualified examiner, we practice and practice what to do if the engine quits, but in the end it is always just a game. We rarely if ever complete the emergency scenario by actually landing in a field or on a road or similar. Which tells me that we should be looking at engine outs and similar emergencies as a situation where we are looking to save our lives at the known cost of likely losing the aircraft in the process. If we can save the aircraft, that is a definite plus. But crawling out of a hunk of bent metal and plastic is far better than being buried in a box. I hope I will act accordingly if my engine ever fails, instead of trying to land on a flat runway when the chances doing so are something less than 100%.
You do what your altitude allows.
Keep in mind that crunching that plane up just a little too much will leave you stuck inside a burning wreck.
My suggestion is to do it if the alternative will likely break a wing in half
....but only if you are versed in a decent technique for doing it in a very predictable and repeatable way. (For example I knew someone who had a plane that was built and/or set up just right so that you simply used roll and rudder.
It protected him from stalling, while also making it intuitive and easy to judge his ability to make it a full 180 (or otherwise how many degrees he could get out of the turn, with somewhat decent accuracy) since it took the elevator almost totally out of the equation.
So his rule was simple-flat out-no pulling on the elevator until you are wings level and/or finished turning (and low enough that a potential stall isn't a concern I assume).
Thank you for such a great response to the accidents Juan. One thing though - was McSpadden *really* the more experienced pilot here? Russ wasn't a "spring chicken" in the cockpit and AFAIK all of his time was in small aircraft. Dick, while having a ton of time overall, had most of his experience outside of light singles and a good portion was in fast jets. As such, was he really the more experienced? That's one assumption that has gotten a lot of people killed as well. Just because a pilot has a lot of total time, doesn't mean they a lot of *relevant* time.
We need all the safety advocates we can get in GA. To have lost Dick will be felt for a long time.
Maybe easy to see 'former NFL player' and assume spoiled pampered unskilled amateur.
Well Said! The man with one rifle, shoots it very well.
Pretty sure McSpadden had a lot of time in cubs, sounds like both had a lot of experience.
Superior judgement would have been more useful than superior skill, in this case.
I remember back to a BFR flight with a CFI, in a Bonanza 36, where we practiced the "turn back" to find out what was possible. We found that we needed 1,000 feet above the runway to safely turn back.
Hell you need 900' in an Aeronca Champ to turn back.
When I did my ab initio training in 1977 I was taught to pick a landing field within 30 degrees either side of runway heading. Never considered a turn back. Now retired, 27,000 hours on various Boeings.
This is the video I needed to see. I watched the FlyWire interview, then the very next day saw the announcement about Richard and was rattled by it. Thankyou for your clear message about 'the turn-back', and consideration of the take-off briefing. You're calm certainty is very much respected and admired.
Wow, what a tough weekend. RIP to everyone lost.
Solid delivery Juan, you can hear the voice of past experiences with pilots who are no longer in formation. Many appreciate what you do and thanks for passing on common aviation sense to many.
I’m a VFR pilot and have departed out of dark desert mountain airports a few times in technically VMC - Winnemucca, NV on a December night with a high thin overcast, for instance. Thankfully each time I recognized the likely scenario that maintaining visual references might be difficult and so decided I would carefully fly an IFR style departure procedure. After rotation I started carefully cross checking my instruments and flew runway heading to 1000 above the departure elevation and then standard rate turn to fly direct to a nearby VOR. Then on course once clear above surrounding terrain. While I think I could have maintained VMC in each case it was a good feeling knowing I didn’t have to worry about either CFIT or loss of control while in the dark. Gotta be prepared. And night VFR in a single piston engine airplane may not be a good risk.
Years ago I read an excellent FAA circular on "controlled crashes" or -- to be specific -- on the ability of modern light planes to absorb a tremendous amount of punishment as a pilot makes a properly executed controlled crash, such as going down in the woods after an engine failure following takeoff. Believe it or not, it's a crash you can walk away from -- just be sure you're wearing your shoulder harness and have the cojones to point the nose between the trees.That FAA circular, incidentally, is something I've always kept in mind when considering the impossible turn folly. Unfortunately, there are some aviation "influences" out there who advocate the impossible turn and even teach it to students. I won't mention any names, but perhaps it's time for local FSDO offices to investigate and start pulling some CFI certificates. Personally, I always tell myself that I'll get an engine failure on takeoff and am thus ready to put the nose down rather than sitting there like a deer caught in the headlights. Finally, I have never known quite what to do when I am, technically, the PIC (and am confident of my abilities) but am nevertheless sitting next to a pilot with far more experience than me.
He is absolutely the best at explaining these breakdowns. I'm not at all a pilot, just intrigued by fascination and gracefullness of planes flying in the air. Rest in peace to all that lost their lives. You all did things braver, than I can do. GOD BLESS!!!
Juan, always appreciate your videos. Sorry to hear about these tragedies. Great point about not turning back. As a kid I owned a WW2 P-51 Pilot's Manual - and even the U.S. Army Air Force told pilots then to never turn back, but land straight ahead in case of engine failure on takeoff.
Quite a while ago, in an American Bonanza Society flight proficiency course, the clinic pilot demoed engine-out performance in a lightly-loaded A36. We did this at altitude with a 1000' hard deck. Two things stuck with me: trying to return to the runway when you had less than 1000' AGL was unlikely to end well. And pulling the prop full aft made a remarkable reduction in drag (you could feel the a/c accelerate as the prop moved out of flat pitch). So easy to demo, so hard, when it happens to you, to say "Well, the airplane belongs to the insurance company now," and glide more or less straight ahead to whatever looks empty, cheap and soft.
Thanks Juan. With regards to the RG. I remember as a teenager when these came out. I was a line boy and it was special because it had no struts. The owner of the flight school was former WWII Army Airforce Instructor and he said that it was a slippery airplane because of the new wing compared to a C-182. I also remember that the gear was like the Skymaster and rotated with the wheels coming together first forming an "airbrake" of sorts before entering the belly. If the RG was approaching the runway and they tried extending the gear, this would have added a massive amount of drag at the wrong time. The pilot in command issue is difficult. I had a bad experience when on a marginal low cloud day me and a friend went to the airport. He says "let's go look the C-152, then let's sit in it I'm working on my Instructors rating, then let's just go give it a run up, (I'm watching a cloud bank dropping in off the ridge). Then next thing he's taxing out and taking off. All I could do was watch my side, call out obstacles to him until we did the really low circuit and landed. Never flew with him again. 😮
Condolences to family and friends for your losses. Wow.
When taking off and climbing out, the aircraft is usually trimmed nose up, so when an engine takes a dump you have to offset that trim, too.
My instructors and examiners were ferocious advocates for landing straight ahead. Their emphasis was to know your terrain and be able to pick out suitable alternatives IN FRONT OF YOU! Bless them for that discipline.
Ahh. The trim. That makes sense. It'll take more down elevator input to compensate. Making it more counterintuitive.
yehh yur gonna have to spin that trimwheel so fast forward... to try save yur life... but gotta train practice always think about it Ahead of time. Today don't think cfis or FAA emphasize train students on thus enuf at all
May God comfort the families of the people who perished. My sincerest condolences. Thank you Juan for this update.
Condolences to the AOPA community for the loss of such an accomplished individual, father, husband and outstanding pilot.
Juan, your analysis continues to be the very best out there. So tragic to see these accidents under any circumstances: safe flying = discipline and judgement, there's just no way around it. We've all been in circumstances when we've been tempted to push, been in an airplane when others WERE pushing, or have foreseen an accident moments before it happened. You cannot always fly safely by observing the laws of human nature. This need to be taught and accepted.
Wake up calls are needed, especially when going into fall/winter.
Thank you, Juan.
I was shocked to my core when I heard of Richard’s death. I knew him and had a chance to fly with him in his super cub a few years back. AOPA Headquarters is located at KFDK my home airport. It was truly a thrill. He was one of my aviation heroes, and a super human being. He and the others who lost their lives will be missed greatly. Clear skies and tail winds aviators😢.
Very shocked by the loss of Richard from AOPA. His video's and yours are always my go to sources for info after an incident.
I’m truly stunned. I’m a student pilot who’s listened to every episode of ‘There I was.’ Richard is a hero and I am dumbfounded and spooked by his demise. He was a master aviator.
“We do not need to take these kind of risks in recreational flying.”
Even though it’s morbid, we owe it to ourselves, our families, and the community below our wheels to debrief like this every time.
RIP Richard, you will be missed.
The Air Safety Institute channel was the first aviation channel I started watching on YT, getting me involved in many other great channels. What an absolute loss.
Wow I am shocked at this report… I really enjoyed listening to Richard in his videos. Unbelievable that he would allow such a manoeuvre after an engine failure? Your comments Juan are exactly correct there needs to be a clear plan before takeoff as to the more experienced pilot taking control or at least a plan of action. I agree never turn back after the end of the runway is under you. Straight in, fly the plane right to the ground never forget what keeps the wing flying. A stable crash landing/ditch is survivable but the moment you panic and become unstable your done. Sad start to October 🙏🏻 Prayers for the families left behind 😞
truly saddened by spad's death, his work at the ASI along with your videos have been my main source of safety analysis in the last years.
I was quite shocked to see the post about Richard McSpadden as Id just recently watched a video of his, which I've seen quite a few of as I follow numerous aviation channels such as yours and Scott's channel!
I can't help but think aviation is only as safe as the most worn out parts of an airplane whether they're known or unknown.
A lot of faith is put into thinking because my plane is well maintained nothings going to break.
If I was flying as PIC of my own plane with someone, anyone as skilled and qualified as Mr. McSpadden, my take off brief would end with "you got the controls" as soon as the engine quit!
Very sad to hear of all the loss of life! My prayers and condolences go out to their friends and families!
I don't own a plane yet, but using MSFS to simulate a flight/emergencies would be a good way to test out some theories. 085 airport is scary, surrounded by homes and a cliff to the North. if you get up above 800ft you can pull a 180. But if not. You will have to land on a 4- way road North of the airport named Eureka Way.
Any good suggestions for breaking it to the wife you want an expensive new hobby?😁
Another great video Juan! Your detailed analysis of these tragic accidents gives me even more confidence in commercial pilots like yourself. I'm a frequent flyer but a not a pilot. Keep up the great work. Also, keep in mind that those of us back in coach are resting easy and enjoying the flight thanks to you and your kind.
Juan, can you please get the message out to the pilot community that one valuable strategy in the event of engine failure is to select coarse pitch to reduce propeller drag and considerably increase speed and/or gliding distance. I did this for real with a failed engine in a Piper Arrow many years ago now and the benefit was amazing.
Good idea!
Another amazing video, thanks Juan. You raise two important points. The departure brief and the turn back. The turn back is well discussed on many videos so I will focus on your point regarding the departure brief. Clarifying who is the most experienced pilot is something I started to do a few years back. As part of my briefs I clearly state who will be in command in an emergency AFTER takeoff and established in the climb. I think it makes a lot of sense to have the more experienced pilot in control during an emergency, especially if it's an instructor. Communication is key during this of course which is also briefed. Thank you for these videos, it's a stark reminder that many crashes are avoidable if we follow simple rules.
Prior to my present FAR121 flying ,I learned to fly and later flew FAR 141 and FAR 135 for a well established, family owned FBO in the Rocky Mountain West where,except for pilot certification purposes, night, single engine and IFR, single engine was strictly prohibited. There’s an fundamental lack of aviation savvy, threat and error management, experience and judgment in this accident. That airplane, fully loaded, from Moab eastbound towards North Dakota, at night, with your family onboard? Very sad and unfortunate.
You Juan are the one to continue saving lifes after the passing of Richard. Im in huge shock. So tragic
Great video with not so great outcomes. Learning through others' mistakes. RIP all deceased pilots.
that's a great bit of advice you mentioned, flying with another pilot in their airplane. Considering I'm about to fly 2500nm over the next 2 days with another bonanza pilot I've not flown with before, That will definitely be on my mind tomorrow.
Juan, you are visibly upset that these tragedies happened. I am too. There's no reason to take more risk than necessary. Especially when there are others on board. There's a reason why we need to recognize not only the hazardous attitudes, but also their antidotes. Lives could have been saved. Thanks for doing what you do.
My son is studying/practicing to be a pilot. It's been his dream since he was a young teenager(not too long ago). His big boast is that he had his pilot's license before his driver's license. He's studying his ground school now and hopes to take the test for IFR next week. In short, his journey is just beginning and I am so proud that he is really going after his dream. What fills me with trepidation, as a parent, is how dangerous flying can be. We had a talk about the impossible turn several weeks ago when you mentioned it in another video. He instantly told me "I know dad, go straight and pitch down for airspeed". I hope that if that unthinkable situation ever happens, those words will come back to him just as quick. Thanks for doing these videos Juan. You probably don't realize the scope of all the good you are doing by inspiring, reminding and instructing people how to keep safe while flying.
Get your kid flying Diamond Aircraft and preferably with glass cockpits.
Hope he's not as cocky as it seems.
@@louhmx1136😂
@@nunyabidness3075 Why? Steam gauges work just fine. A diamond won't make you a better pilot than flying in a 172 or Archer. Learning to fly a tailwheel well will increase your skill level.
@@craigsanders6925 Flying a Diamond will keep you safer. The fatalities rates are less than half a 172. Better handling, stall behavior, and crash worthiness matter. Frankly, a 172 is built like a 1950’s compact automobile if the fuel tank was over your head, and it came down to the engine through the A pillars in little flanged tubes that spray fuel when bent. Also, many schools are renting planes that are so bent they fly crooked. The next hard landing could be the last. At the same time, Diamonds are solid. The stories of people walking away are just amazing. I talked to a 70 plus year old guy who walked away from a midair. The aluminum plane pilot that came down on him from above at about 500’ on final likely was also saved by the diamond, but he still spent months in the hospital.
Younger people take to glass much better, and glass has much better terrain awareness. Yes, flying a glider or tail dragger can improve skills, but most young pilots aren’t doing that if on the airline track. I have not studied the safety records of those sorts of planes, but nothing certified is better than the 172 except the Diamonds as far as I know.
These are all tragic losses, but Richard’s death hits particularly hard, I’ve watched the Air Institute videos for so long, it’s almost like losing a respected family member. It’s a sad reminder that human beings are terrestrial creatures, we weren’t intended to fly, and that no matter who you are, or how much knowledge and experience you have gravity and physics play no favourites. This one really hurts. I’m so sorry. Condolences to all the families, loved ones and communities impacted by the deaths of these 7 very special people. 💔
Thanks for talking about our pal Dooley. He was salt for those of us that live a more plain and normal life. I loved him for that. SEND IT!
I do understand your frustration with having to report on those accidents. It just goes to show that we all need to be very aware that we’re susceptible to this mistake.
Thanks for the great content!
I always appreciate your "reasonable" approach to remaining alive in aircraft. I retired in April after flying 40 years and 22 as a Commercial Pilot and Flight Instructor. Unnecessary risks are... UNNECESSARY. If there is someone you love, don't take them. As for the return to runway turn... It isn't 180 degrees. It's 360 degrees because 180 degrees will land you to the right or left of the runway. You still have to get over the runway and then realign your plane w/ the runway. If you really feel like you can do it, then turn toward the side w/ a taxiway and plan that as your emergency ldg spot. Make that plan before taking the runway for departure.
Interesting thoughts......
ohh And no body I've ever heard talks about... You do that 180° turn back.. if u can make it. NOW now you got a Tailwind.. maybe a strong one... that ain't gonna help at all.
I just thot of this myself.. Can't believe I have never heard any one pt that out.
Just go strt ahead pray can softly land on top of big bushy trees full of leaves or better ..
Any any close golf course
Nice report as usual. Really surprised by the ND accident in MOAB. In that scenario it's just so easy to wake up early and leave as the sun rises. Ppl often discount the challenges and risks to night flying. A shame for all these folks. Also, regarding the Francis accident, there looked to be a field off to the left as well, so assuming they had at least 500' - which is far too little altitude to return to airport - a slight left turn might've been a good option for a field landing. But we all need to remember, when this happens, it happens quickly and unexpectedly so second guessing can be a bit unreasonable (though understandable) for us keyboard warriors. So tragic. RIP aviators.
Russ Francis the owner of the C-177 Cardinal was a great player and also a great person. I hate to see someone that I knew not personally but enjoyed his play with SF 49'ers. I have watched several of Richard McSpadden AOPA videos on the impossible turn and I just don't think if it was up to him he would have chosen that procedure. I don't know what skill level of a pilot Russ was. There are a lot of safety measures on airplanes but make a big mistake and your life may end. RIP Richard and Russ!