I think the main issue I could see with the “just climb” group, is what are they climbing? You even show a clip of someone climbing, but they’re on a slopey, pinch climb. Most commercial gyms aren’t setting a ton of crazy crimpy, finger intensive climbs anymore. I think you’d need someone who’s “just climbing” on 20mm or smaller holds mainly. I also am not sure that 2-5% is enough difference to show effect, and couldn’t be attributed to other factors from each group Also, very little climbing looks like hanging from a 20mm flat edge. Was there any data showing this increase transferred to climbing?
Europe still sets a lot of crimp ladder routes in the gym. The setting style is slowly changing. But the point being, "just climbing" is treated as a control. Just climbing will help you get better at climbing, but training should help you get better faster. 2 - 5% doesn't sound like much difference in a vacuum, hence why statisticians have come up with ways to test "effect size" (Cohen's d in the paper). No-hangs and max hangs showed a medium effect (i.e. in giving a similar result) while the combined no-hang and max hang showed a large effect. So what Dr Baar says when he says that they are they same, he means from a statistical point of view. Sprinting also doesn't look like squats or deadlifts either yet most, if not all, football players put up large numbers in those exercises. Would be nice to see if there is data showing the transfer though.
Yeah I think the just climb group should actually be 'just training boards' like MB, Tension, Kilter, etc. Since those boards are very finger intensive. But I think the idea was, almost EVERYONE at climbing gyms always say "yeah just climb and your fingers will get stronger". Which I think might be true for very beginner climbers, but will definitely see a drop off.
@@이상민98 There is a lot of shoulds. Keith said this was a RETROSPECTIVE study. Meaning they couldn't do anything to maximize controls. The study is still quite clear but how much the actual effect is becomes diluted with the number of people who had a varying degree of dedication. I think they would love to do a super controlled study with hundreds of people but it's really not that easy.
What I’m interested in is how this may have affects outside of rock climbing. What kind of “no hang protocol” could be used for very basic exercises like the bench press that revolutionizing ways we look at sports
tldr; "no hangs" and "max hangs" are not statistically different in terms of one being more beneficial than the other. So do whichever one you want. And if you do both, you might get slightly more gains. In other words, the results is basically what most people already knew.
I think the biggest difference is the accessibility for both. Whether your constraints are time (only time to do max hangs) or resources (can only hang at home on cheap apartment frames, or don't have weights) the research now shows that both are viable. It's just good to know that you're not wasting your time with whichever one you do!
The fact that”no hangs” have benefit is new. This is something (finger) tendons differ from muscles. If you do super low intensity muscle training, no gain is achieved. With walking around you will not be better in sprinting. However, with no hangs you do get stronger tendons!
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Can I just say I love the name 'Abrahang' that has clearly snuck into his vocabulary.
I think the main issue I could see with the “just climb” group, is what are they climbing? You even show a clip of someone climbing, but they’re on a slopey, pinch climb. Most commercial gyms aren’t setting a ton of crazy crimpy, finger intensive climbs anymore. I think you’d need someone who’s “just climbing” on 20mm or smaller holds mainly.
I also am not sure that 2-5% is enough difference to show effect, and couldn’t be attributed to other factors from each group
Also, very little climbing looks like hanging from a 20mm flat edge. Was there any data showing this increase transferred to climbing?
Europe still sets a lot of crimp ladder routes in the gym. The setting style is slowly changing. But the point being, "just climbing" is treated as a control. Just climbing will help you get better at climbing, but training should help you get better faster.
2 - 5% doesn't sound like much difference in a vacuum, hence why statisticians have come up with ways to test "effect size" (Cohen's d in the paper). No-hangs and max hangs showed a medium effect (i.e. in giving a similar result) while the combined no-hang and max hang showed a large effect. So what Dr Baar says when he says that they are they same, he means from a statistical point of view.
Sprinting also doesn't look like squats or deadlifts either yet most, if not all, football players put up large numbers in those exercises. Would be nice to see if there is data showing the transfer though.
Yeah I think the just climb group should actually be 'just training boards' like MB, Tension, Kilter, etc. Since those boards are very finger intensive. But I think the idea was, almost EVERYONE at climbing gyms always say "yeah just climb and your fingers will get stronger". Which I think might be true for very beginner climbers, but will definitely see a drop off.
@@이상민98 There is a lot of shoulds. Keith said this was a RETROSPECTIVE study. Meaning they couldn't do anything to maximize controls. The study is still quite clear but how much the actual effect is becomes diluted with the number of people who had a varying degree of dedication.
I think they would love to do a super controlled study with hundreds of people but it's really not that easy.
they should do a test where someone does board climbing 2-3x a week see if they get stronger in fingers
What I’m interested in is how this may have affects outside of rock climbing. What kind of “no hang protocol” could be used for very basic exercises like the bench press that revolutionizing ways we look at sports
Thank you ! Is the "no hang" protocol standardized yet ? Is it available somewhere ? Thanks again for the great content
yeah on the Crimpd App
there's also a follow along video with Emil saying your a good people while doing it, 100% worth.
Emil the king of clickbait
tldr; "no hangs" and "max hangs" are not statistically different in terms of one being more beneficial than the other. So do whichever one you want. And if you do both, you might get slightly more gains. In other words, the results is basically what most people already knew.
I think the biggest difference is the accessibility for both. Whether your constraints are time (only time to do max hangs) or resources (can only hang at home on cheap apartment frames, or don't have weights) the research now shows that both are viable. It's just good to know that you're not wasting your time with whichever one you do!
The fact that”no hangs” have benefit is new. This is something (finger) tendons differ from muscles. If you do super low intensity muscle training, no gain is achieved. With walking around you will not be better in sprinting. However, with no hangs you do get stronger tendons!