One thing that comes to mind when considering the top echelon of climbing and other sports is the idea that progress really is asymptotic at the highest levels. It makes sense to me that the delineation between the hardest grades becomes smaller and smaller as we see people reach closer and closer to overall human potential. Look at running for example, for a long while, records were broken by quite a bit of time, the Marathon for example went from just under 3 hours in the early 1900's to now being around the 2 hour mark, nowadays we might see mere seconds shaved off once in a while. Records become more tech and condition dependent as runner's reach the limit of what the human body is capable of. I think climbing is in the same boat now, the strongest climbers are at the point where it's not really feasible to have a huge leap in difficulty, only small incremental progress, and the compression of grading at the highest levels reflects that.
I don't think we are at the point of human potential yet, the sport is young and growing a lot (bouldering especially), training methods are still improving and more research being done to prove the effectiveness.
The sport is so young and complex. We're far from human limits in climbing but even that would be hard to realize since grading is subjective. There's always a next grade to suggest. In running there's no speculation about the time.
i think this is also an insight somewhat congruent to that of Adam Ondra's. In one of his videos, he said that the higher you go up to the grades, the larger the jump of difficulty should be, for a route to even merit a new higher grade. It is not linear. For example, the difficulty gap for a route to be called a 9c instead of a 9b+, is larger than the difficulty gap between 6b+ to 6c.
@@wings2585 nope. "For example, the difficulty gap for a route to be called a 9c instead of a 9b+, is larger than the difficulty gap between 6b+ to 6c." -> the gap isn't larger, rather it should 'feel' larger in order to account for the bias that the closer to your limit, tiny increments should feel huge.
I think that bouldering as a sport involves a nebulous and changing set of skills, depending on the specific features of the boulder you're trying. We call this difference in required skills a 'style difference', but it's becoming increasingly apparent that style differences between boulders make putting them on a single linear scale pretty much impossible. For example, Burden of Dreams differs significantly from ROTSW in the required skill-set. While they both require insane finger strength, pull up strength, and body tension, ROTSW is much more focused on a particular type of body tension: A high undercling in a roof, as well as wide compression. These are simply different skills than the ones being tested by Burden, so I don't think it really makes any sense to compare the two using a linear scale. This is the reason people have had such drastically different opinions on the grade of dynos, like Zion (v8-15, according to who you ask) or Rainbow Rocket (V6-11). I think that in the future we'll see a distinct branching of styles, with the v17 climbs being those that push the physical limits of each style.
The problem with a clear jump in difficulty from one grade to another is grades go up in steps, difficulty goes up in theoretically infinitely small increments. Take pull-ups for example. Lets say a pull-up with bodyweight is V1. Now add weight in 1g increments. Where do you draw the line of what is V2? Lets say 5kg, but then 4.999 kg still is only V1 but nobody would actually feel the difference. Also take into account style, conditions (of the climb and the climber), bodytype etc and most grades will never be clear cut.
Yeah, I think that 'style' differences are becoming increasingly problematic for grading problems at the top of the top of boulder grades. Like, it's at the point where a V17 compression line just requires a completely different physique than a V17 crimpy board climb, or a V17 90-foot-long pumpy undercling roof. I predict that Will Bosi will be the last 'all-around' boulderer climbing the absolute top-end of the grade. After this, where won't be any single climber who can send a V18 in any style, because the required builds to send that grade will be so different from each other depending on the climb's style.
This is the issue. It's all well and good to want each "step" to feel like it exists, but because that's not how rock works, there will always be debate at any border between grades. The 'hardest' climb of any particular grade will essentially feel the same as the 'easiest' climb of the next grade. Even if you could theoretically make grades objective, that would still be the case.
@@Ekid33 Lol 'all-around boulderer'!? Will Bosi!? Has he ever even held a sloper? Get him on Soudain Soul, and let's see how he fares. His climbing is all about bending the boulder to fit him. As most also try it. But I don't think he ever spend much time on sandstone. Aidan is the same. Now Shawn, Simon Lorenzi, Nalle, Jimmy Webb, Giuliano, Ondra, all seem much more versatile. But maybe weaker in their specialties.
Hey Ryan, do you have any plans for patrons to get content early? I obviously cant possibly comprehend all the work you do to master these shows and everything else before they come out, but I would certainly subscribe to the patreon to get shows as early as possible, if it was an actual difference. None of the other perks interested me though (me personally, nothing against them). Just wanted you to know. Have a great day!
Hey, I appreciate the thoughtful comment. I do release episodes early for patrons, but typically just one or two days early. Along with the full uncut video of the interview. And of course, other perks like bonus episodes, which I definitely think are pretty rad. There’s over 100 hours of bonus episodes andContent with pretty much every guest I’ve ever had on the show. Also, there’s a free trial so you could pop over without risk and check that stuff out to see if it’s worth it. I appreciate it!
I try not to, but in this case it better than putting it before my question because there is a continuation of thought. Maybe I got it wrong, it’s always a little tricky to figure out where to put things.
I absolutely adore Alphane, but I'd be inclined to agree. It may simply be the first 8c+/9a slash grade but everyone is afraid of slash grades and no one wants to say 8c+, because no one knows what 8c+ even means, let alone 9a, it seems.
Not so sure, Will says here he doesn’t know if ROTSW is harder or easier so that would probably have to go down too. Maybe that’s correct… If you look at who’s done it they’ve all climbed other 9A’s with the exception of Schubert who has a strong argument for being the best Sport Climber in the world. Considering how accessible it is, the consistency of conditions and the shear number of strong climbers who have put time into it I’d expect to have seen more ascents by now if it was clearly overgraded. No ascent by Woods, Webb, Graham, Giuliano etc says something
@@adamwood9144 I think that's a pretty good analysis. It's in a region where lots of top climbers like to climb, so it gets more attention. Some top Japanese climbers have been trying their hand it recently too without luck.
Actually Vadim timonov send the FA of "backflip sit" last year and grade it 8C+/9A. He thought first it was a 9A. It should be good to confirm 8C+/9A as a legit grade in order to solve more easily these grade issues (and the inflation who comes with it) without destroying egos too much.
@@frerejacques9652 why even bother with grades if you can't pick a clear grade, who cares about feelings the consensus grading system has worked for a very long time. This / grading just creates even more grades and confusion. If you aren't sure, it's probably not as hard.
Is Dave Macleod or Will Bosi worst for you? Personally I didn't even know it was that accented it'd be hard to pick up though. I'd figure Dave's would be harder?
Use code ‘STRUGGLE’ for 15% off storewide from Rúngne ▶︎ thestruggleclimbingshow.com/rungneyoutube2
Nalle honestly goated
One thing that comes to mind when considering the top echelon of climbing and other sports is the idea that progress really is asymptotic at the highest levels. It makes sense to me that the delineation between the hardest grades becomes smaller and smaller as we see people reach closer and closer to overall human potential. Look at running for example, for a long while, records were broken by quite a bit of time, the Marathon for example went from just under 3 hours in the early 1900's to now being around the 2 hour mark, nowadays we might see mere seconds shaved off once in a while. Records become more tech and condition dependent as runner's reach the limit of what the human body is capable of. I think climbing is in the same boat now, the strongest climbers are at the point where it's not really feasible to have a huge leap in difficulty, only small incremental progress, and the compression of grading at the highest levels reflects that.
I don't think we are at the point of human potential yet, the sport is young and growing a lot (bouldering especially), training methods are still improving and more research being done to prove the effectiveness.
On the other hand pro climbers say that every grade is twice as hard as the one before. At least on ropes.
The sport is so young and complex. We're far from human limits in climbing but even that would be hard to realize since grading is subjective. There's always a next grade to suggest. In running there's no speculation about the time.
i think this is also an insight somewhat congruent to that of Adam Ondra's.
In one of his videos, he said that the higher you go up to the grades, the larger the jump of difficulty should be, for a route to even merit a new higher grade. It is not linear.
For example, the difficulty gap for a route to be called a 9c instead of a 9b+, is larger than the difficulty gap between 6b+ to 6c.
@@wings2585 nope. "For example, the difficulty gap for a route to be called a 9c instead of a 9b+, is larger than the difficulty gap between 6b+ to 6c." -> the gap isn't larger, rather it should 'feel' larger in order to account for the bias that the closer to your limit, tiny increments should feel huge.
im curious for will to try Megatron and Arrival of the birds. Those from my point of view will be the some of the hardest ones
Think he'll crush megatron tbh
Have we seen the Arrival of the Birds ascent yet?
You’re forgetting Terranova
@@gb2755 he's been trying it lmfao
@@cazman182 yea Aidan Roberts
"Rank them starting with the easiest".
"Burden was the hardest..."
Burden lives in his mind rent free 😅
Would love to see other V17 climbers try honeybadger
And Terranova for that matter. But yes if honey badger is hard 8c+, maybe it really is just 9a.
Right I feel like terranova and honeybadger are gonna be harder than alphane. Although I climb V5 in the gym and have never outdoor bouldered. Sooo
Or floatin. Its really badass
@@ac311205 Yeah but just from ascents and feedback it seems evident.
@@frerejacques9652 Yeah but that has seems some repeats now but such a cool line.
Aidan, Will, and Shawn have to get on "no one mourns the wicked". Most beautiful v17 line imo
Gotta give some respect to Simon Lorenzi also
@@vincentblondeau5265 True! Is he the only other with multiple V17 sends?
Shawn was in the documentary, and Nathaniel talked about how Shawn figured out some beta for Nathaniel which he used to send in a podcast
@@nemexgamer0462 can't believe I forgot that I watched it a couple days ago 🤦
@@theflaggeddragon9472 sean bailey
love the content, always Ryan!
Ranking them according to how much he enjoyed the boulders or the experience would've made for a much more interesting conversation imo :)
I think that bouldering as a sport involves a nebulous and changing set of skills, depending on the specific features of the boulder you're trying. We call this difference in required skills a 'style difference', but it's becoming increasingly apparent that style differences between boulders make putting them on a single linear scale pretty much impossible.
For example, Burden of Dreams differs significantly from ROTSW in the required skill-set. While they both require insane finger strength, pull up strength, and body tension, ROTSW is much more focused on a particular type of body tension: A high undercling in a roof, as well as wide compression. These are simply different skills than the ones being tested by Burden, so I don't think it really makes any sense to compare the two using a linear scale.
This is the reason people have had such drastically different opinions on the grade of dynos, like Zion (v8-15, according to who you ask) or Rainbow Rocket (V6-11). I think that in the future we'll see a distinct branching of styles, with the v17 climbs being those that push the physical limits of each style.
Linear scales are the worst, except for all the rest.
The problem with a clear jump in difficulty from one grade to another is grades go up in steps, difficulty goes up in theoretically infinitely small increments.
Take pull-ups for example. Lets say a pull-up with bodyweight is V1. Now add weight in 1g increments. Where do you draw the line of what is V2? Lets say 5kg, but then 4.999 kg still is only V1 but nobody would actually feel the difference.
Also take into account style, conditions (of the climb and the climber), bodytype etc and most grades will never be clear cut.
Yeah, I think that 'style' differences are becoming increasingly problematic for grading problems at the top of the top of boulder grades. Like, it's at the point where a V17 compression line just requires a completely different physique than a V17 crimpy board climb, or a V17 90-foot-long pumpy undercling roof.
I predict that Will Bosi will be the last 'all-around' boulderer climbing the absolute top-end of the grade. After this, where won't be any single climber who can send a V18 in any style, because the required builds to send that grade will be so different from each other depending on the climb's style.
This is the issue. It's all well and good to want each "step" to feel like it exists, but because that's not how rock works, there will always be debate at any border between grades.
The 'hardest' climb of any particular grade will essentially feel the same as the 'easiest' climb of the next grade. Even if you could theoretically make grades objective, that would still be the case.
@@Ekid33 Lol 'all-around boulderer'!? Will Bosi!? Has he ever even held a sloper? Get him on Soudain Soul, and let's see how he fares. His climbing is all about bending the boulder to fit him. As most also try it. But I don't think he ever spend much time on sandstone. Aidan is the same. Now Shawn, Simon Lorenzi, Nalle, Jimmy Webb, Giuliano, Ondra, all seem much more versatile. But maybe weaker in their specialties.
Hey Ryan, do you have any plans for patrons to get content early? I obviously cant possibly comprehend all the work you do to master these shows and everything else before they come out, but I would certainly subscribe to the patreon to get shows as early as possible, if it was an actual difference. None of the other perks interested me though (me personally, nothing against them). Just wanted you to know. Have a great day!
Hey, I appreciate the thoughtful comment. I do release episodes early for patrons, but typically just one or two days early. Along with the full uncut video of the interview. And of course, other perks like bonus episodes, which I definitely think are pretty rad. There’s over 100 hours of bonus episodes andContent with pretty much every guest I’ve ever had on the show. Also, there’s a free trial so you could pop over without risk and check that stuff out to see if it’s worth it. I appreciate it!
@@thestruggleclimbingshow Thanks for the reply! (as always)
Please don’t put a sponsored segment in the middle of a guest’s sentence
I try not to, but in this case it better than putting it before my question because there is a continuation of thought. Maybe I got it wrong, it’s always a little tricky to figure out where to put things.
Long story short, yes, alphane is overgraded and everyone knows it but are too polite/afraid to say so.
I absolutely adore Alphane, but I'd be inclined to agree. It may simply be the first 8c+/9a slash grade but everyone is afraid of slash grades and no one wants to say 8c+, because no one knows what 8c+ even means, let alone 9a, it seems.
Not so sure, Will says here he doesn’t know if ROTSW is harder or easier so that would probably have to go down too. Maybe that’s correct… If you look at who’s done it they’ve all climbed other 9A’s with the exception of Schubert who has a strong argument for being the best Sport Climber in the world.
Considering how accessible it is, the consistency of conditions and the shear number of strong climbers who have put time into it I’d expect to have seen more ascents by now if it was clearly overgraded.
No ascent by Woods, Webb, Graham, Giuliano etc says something
@@adamwood9144 I think that's a pretty good analysis. It's in a region where lots of top climbers like to climb, so it gets more attention. Some top Japanese climbers have been trying their hand it recently too without luck.
Actually Vadim timonov send the FA of "backflip sit" last year and grade it 8C+/9A. He thought first it was a 9A.
It should be good to confirm 8C+/9A as a legit grade in order to solve more easily these grade issues (and the inflation who comes with it) without destroying egos too much.
@@frerejacques9652 why even bother with grades if you can't pick a clear grade, who cares about feelings the consensus grading system has worked for a very long time. This / grading just creates even more grades and confusion. If you aren't sure, it's probably not as hard.
It's kind of hard to understand will's accent lol.
Really? I find his accent very mild as far as Scottish accents go
@CJski just for me i guess
@@diegoignacioespinozabarrer3582 I know ppl that really have a hard time with that accent as well
Is Dave Macleod or Will Bosi worst for you? Personally I didn't even know it was that accented it'd be hard to pick up though. I'd figure Dave's would be harder?
@@HourRomanticist Good question. Maybe OP is super Scottish and can't understand Will's "southern" accent 😂