This is a big missed opportunity. A new version of chinatown could have been almost anything, new areas opening up in an asteroid as it's mined out would have been my choice for a theme. That's a theme that makes sense to the games mechanics of randomly assigning regions. Gold mining, city building, you name it. Just about any theme would have been better than this nonsense. PS. I'm not hugely interested in debating the merits of the original theme, all I'll say is I have 2 different groups i play with who both contain people of Chinese descent and they found it "Cringey" or "awkward", not all out "this game is an abomination and must be burned at the stake". And as a rule, when something is about a specific culture, i tend to defer to the people from that cultures opinions. I'm not about to tell my friends that have to shut up and play the game if they feel that way. But thats why i've wanted a retheme into something slightly different.
Very sensible comments. If anyone at the table finds a theme troubling, we'll play something else instead. No questions, no challenges. We're all there to enjoy the experience and each other's company. My partner is Maori. Out of respect for her, I'd not bring a colonialism game home, but likewise she's no issue with me *playing one at a boardgame night, and neither would I have any issue with anyone else tabling such a game within our group. Mutual respect. It's a lot better than the US socio-political spats and posturing that can pollute our hobby. * I can't think of a single board game I've played with that theme, but going back in time, there were a few video games. Oddly Europa Universalis had an element of that, but it seems played down in the new board game? ** as for chinatown, not a game for me. Yes, for sure they could have been a little less clumsy in the branding, but the biggest issue for me, is I strongly dislike negotiation games, especially with new players at the table who don't appreciate the relative values. I also find they bring out a side of me (hard-nosed, grumpy) that I really don't want to be. It wasn't a pleasant experience at all.
Here with a blistering hot take six months later. My family and I (including my two young kids, aged 5 and 7) have played Original Chinatown a bunch of times and all enjoyed it -- except that we found it takes too long to play all six rounds, and the spaces often get a bit constricted. We LOVE the tangible theme and aesthetics of immigrant families trying to build retail businesses in Robert Moses-era Manhattan. The question of ethnicity portrayal is tricky, and maybe not the most delicate, but again, amazing theme. All that said. Waterfall Park is *actually* a refinement of the gameplay to fit family needs. I played three games of it TODAY and each felt like, with four rounds, they finished right on time before it became a slog. More businesses got finished; more sense of accomplishment. Simpler money management with the tokens. Very clever component design (though needed a bag for attraction tiles, in my opinion). Trading: just as heated! And theme wise, the family had just come back from a vacation at a water park hotel. All the businesses were places we'd just seen. We could imagine building a carousel, a bowling alley, a movie theatre by the big pool. I think this game AND its theme have enormous merit! But I am also very glad we have both of these options available to play -- Chinatown when my wife and I want to lecture our kids about urban planning, and Waterfall Park when we want a quicker game full of candy stores, circus tents and bright colours.
@@3MBG absolutely! I mean, what kind of amusement park has individual ride designers fighting against each other for space?! It seems like a wild, self-defeating level of corporate intrigue.
Chinese here. Appreciate the effort to take out stereotyped images, but Zman should also try not to dumb it down on earnest gamers...😢 Just take out the Chinese man image off the box and the back of the game cards, then keep the original game play. The product cards are ok.
Also Chinese here. I think a less stereotypical looking asian on the cover would have sufficed, maybe alongside some other ethnic representation within the game. Don't think it's necessary to completely whitewash a game like Chinatown, as culture and history is part of its theme. A reprint of the same theme could still work if it's approached with a bit more subtlety and social awareness.
Was at 100 when I heard Waterfall park was a remake of Chinatown Went straight back to "now where can I get a copy of Chinatown" 140 percent with you that this theme is garbage.
Would you recommend this to someone who can't find a local copy of Chinatown, or is it a notable enough downgrade that i should spend the additional markup to order the original in? The only negotiation-related game I own is Wise Guys, which while great has a very specific player count requirement, so Chinatown/Waterfall Park has been on my radar for a while.
The gameplay is fine, if a little less nuanced and tactical than the original. So i think its a perfectly fine game for that reason. It's just inferior to the original whihc is a great game.
Worth having a look at Bohnanza. Quite a cheap game, with relatively fast-paced negotiation, and a little more intuitive for new gamers, though its 'Scout -like' fixed card positions is an added complexity to wrap your head around whilst trying to work out if a deal is beneficial
This is a big missed opportunity. A new version of chinatown could have been almost anything, new areas opening up in an asteroid as it's mined out would have been my choice for a theme. That's a theme that makes sense to the games mechanics of randomly assigning regions. Gold mining, city building, you name it. Just about any theme would have been better than this nonsense.
PS. I'm not hugely interested in debating the merits of the original theme, all I'll say is I have 2 different groups i play with who both contain people of Chinese descent and they found it "Cringey" or "awkward", not all out "this game is an abomination and must be burned at the stake". And as a rule, when something is about a specific culture, i tend to defer to the people from that cultures opinions. I'm not about to tell my friends that have to shut up and play the game if they feel that way. But thats why i've wanted a retheme into something slightly different.
Very sensible comments. If anyone at the table finds a theme troubling, we'll play something else instead. No questions, no challenges. We're all there to enjoy the experience and each other's company.
My partner is Maori. Out of respect for her, I'd not bring a colonialism game home, but likewise she's no issue with me *playing one at a boardgame night, and neither would I have any issue with anyone else tabling such a game within our group.
Mutual respect. It's a lot better than the US socio-political spats and posturing that can pollute our hobby.
* I can't think of a single board game I've played with that theme, but going back in time, there were a few video games. Oddly Europa Universalis had an element of that, but it seems played down in the new board game?
** as for chinatown, not a game for me. Yes, for sure they could have been a little less clumsy in the branding, but the biggest issue for me, is I strongly dislike negotiation games, especially with new players at the table who don't appreciate the relative values. I also find they bring out a side of me (hard-nosed, grumpy) that I really don't want to be. It wasn't a pleasant experience at all.
Here with a blistering hot take six months later. My family and I (including my two young kids, aged 5 and 7) have played Original Chinatown a bunch of times and all enjoyed it -- except that we found it takes too long to play all six rounds, and the spaces often get a bit constricted. We LOVE the tangible theme and aesthetics of immigrant families trying to build retail businesses in Robert Moses-era Manhattan. The question of ethnicity portrayal is tricky, and maybe not the most delicate, but again, amazing theme.
All that said.
Waterfall Park is *actually* a refinement of the gameplay to fit family needs. I played three games of it TODAY and each felt like, with four rounds, they finished right on time before it became a slog. More businesses got finished; more sense of accomplishment. Simpler money management with the tokens. Very clever component design (though needed a bag for attraction tiles, in my opinion). Trading: just as heated!
And theme wise, the family had just come back from a vacation at a water park hotel. All the businesses were places we'd just seen. We could imagine building a carousel, a bowling alley, a movie theatre by the big pool.
I think this game AND its theme have enormous merit! But I am also very glad we have both of these options available to play -- Chinatown when my wife and I want to lecture our kids about urban planning, and Waterfall Park when we want a quicker game full of candy stores, circus tents and bright colours.
Ha, fair enough. I think the mechanics are probably fine, still find the theme a bit weird.
@@3MBG absolutely! I mean, what kind of amusement park has individual ride designers fighting against each other for space?! It seems like a wild, self-defeating level of corporate intrigue.
Chinese here. Appreciate the effort to take out stereotyped images, but Zman should also try not to dumb it down on earnest gamers...😢 Just take out the Chinese man image off the box and the back of the game cards, then keep the original game play. The product cards are ok.
Hard to argue with that. I still would like my asteroid mining version, as i reckon that works as a theme too
Yup! mining on Mars 🤣 your favourite theme 😋
Trade-a-forming Mars 😂
Also Chinese here. I think a less stereotypical looking asian on the cover would have sufficed, maybe alongside some other ethnic representation within the game. Don't think it's necessary to completely whitewash a game like Chinatown, as culture and history is part of its theme. A reprint of the same theme could still work if it's approached with a bit more subtlety and social awareness.
Was at 100 when I heard Waterfall park was a remake of Chinatown
Went straight back to "now where can I get a copy of Chinatown"
140 percent with you that this theme is garbage.
Would you recommend this to someone who can't find a local copy of Chinatown, or is it a notable enough downgrade that i should spend the additional markup to order the original in? The only negotiation-related game I own is Wise Guys, which while great has a very specific player count requirement, so Chinatown/Waterfall Park has been on my radar for a while.
The gameplay is fine, if a little less nuanced and tactical than the original. So i think its a perfectly fine game for that reason. It's just inferior to the original whihc is a great game.
Worth having a look at Bohnanza. Quite a cheap game, with relatively fast-paced negotiation, and a little more intuitive for new gamers, though its 'Scout -like' fixed card positions is an added complexity to wrap your head around whilst trying to work out if a deal is beneficial
Oh no you didn't recommend Rival Restaurants as an alternative
I feel they are quite different
I hate this remake. I would have preferred a reprint of Chinatown.
Agreed, this was sub par
You got a cold mate?
I did actually, yes. The show must go on however.
@@3MBG way to get after it. Get well soon
All these years I've been pronouncing it with the first syllable rhyming with lid...:0 Also, this looks like hot roasted garbage.
Nope, don't get it soz.
SYD eer eee al not SIDE eer ee al
Right, very confusing as the comment was on waterfall park lol
yes sorry about that