Getting Lost in Axiom Verge
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ก.ย. 2024
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A new Metroidvania called Axiom Verge has perfected the lost art of getting lost. In this video we look at techniques used in this game, and Super Metroid, to let players off the leash - while secretly helping them figure out exactly where to go.
Games shown in this episode (in order of appearance):
Super Metroid (Nintendo, 1994)
Ghost Song (Old Moon, 2022)
Ori and the Blind Forest (Moon Studios, 2015)
Xeodrifter (Renegade Kid, 2014)
Apotheon (Alientrap, 2015)
Axiom Verge (Thomas Happ, 2015)
Shadow Complex (Chair Entertainment, 2009)
Guacamelee (Drinkbox Studios, 2013)
Strider (Capcom, 2014)
Insanely Twisted Shadow Planet (Shadow Planet Productions, 2011)
Outland (Housemarque, 2011)
Metroid Fusion (Nintendo, 2002)
Metroid: Zero Mission (Nintendo, 2004)
Bloodborne (From Software, 2015)
Metroid (Nintendo, 1986)
Music used in this episode:
Trace Awakens (Axiom Verge)
Vital Tide (Axiom Verge)
Cellular Skies (Axiom Verge)
Trace Reborn (Axiom Verge)
Contribute translated subtitles - amara.org/v/C3...
"Getting lost and finding your way again is a pleasure like no other. We're exquisitely lucky, you and I..."
-Cornifer
Another genius thing Super Metroid does that no other game that I've seen do is that you have some abilities from the start that you don't know about until you meat some animal characters that teach them to you. When you replay the game you can take other more advanced routes and get things earlier in the game.
The game provides a lot of experimenting and replay value, especially for speed runners.
They show you the Crystal Flash in one of the demo scenes if you sit at the title screen long enough. It still took me until the age of the internet to find out how to do it.
Castlevania SotN does the same thing with magic spells. You don't even have to pay for them in order to use them, you just have to know the correct gamepad sequence to cast :D
And when you remember rondo of blood with maria ulti knuckle dash...
Even normal platformers had their tids and bits.
Wall jumps. Oh boy do I love wall jumps.
Super Metroid does this in excellence, it rewards players that learns the existing systems and use them to their advantage and that's because the developers used something I like to call "Soft Lock" and "Hard Lock". A hard lock is when something is required to pass, like needing super missiles to open green blast doors in SM, while a soft lock is like Kraid's lair at 2:53 in the video where he states that you need high jump to get into Kraid's lair. This isn't true, you can just do the same jump he does but jump more to the left and perform one of SM's hidden movements the wall jump to get into Kraid's Lair early. It's harder, but possible.
Like at 5:08 in the video he says that it's impossible to get out of there without the ice beam, once again that's not true. Once you've gotten high jump you can leave that area by once again using the wall jump and simply jumping out. You can also bypass the section with the tight vertical shaft above with the rippers where you need to shoot open the ceiling, you can kill the rippers using super missiles and the simply wall jump up and shoot it open and wall jump up again and you're free of the shaft and can continue your adventure. Those are just a few examples that the developers could've easily solved if they weren't intentional.
You've got another great example which is a glitch, but it's possible because of their design. Early super missiles by using a glitch called mockball, now the reason this is possible is because the developers wanted to taunt you that you just missed it. If only you could get a few pixels of speed you could've gotten that. That design philosophy is one of the reason why we've got so many glitches, skippable sections and much more.
Now I'm not saying SM invented both of these, I'm saying that they utilized them greatly that many new games don't dare too do. A lot of newer games simply ask the question "What if a player was able to access this area too early, or without item X" and simply hard lock the entire game. In my opinion this is bad level design, the game should just trust me and allow me to break something if I can, because these things often demand skill of the player and it's not something everyone can do. I wanted to add that I'm probably going to flip a table of Mark doesn't cover a lot of these things when he does a video on Super Metroid, because the game is filled to the brink with great game design.
"I’m completely lost. I can’t find any way forward. Maybe if I look up GMTK’s five-year-old video on this game, I’ll miraculously find an answer in the gameplay footage."
... ... ...
"That green scratchy thing at 4:08 *isn’t* a wall?!"
Horrible choice by the designer, probably the only huge mistake in the game. I also got stuck on this!
@@kintozero3169 you could always try shooting things that SORTA look like walls. That’s my strategy anyways
Yup, no need to somehow reach the trenchcoat
...huh. You thought it was a wall? I always assumed it was, like, some spongy, plant-like tendril thingy that held the platform suspended. Well, it goes to show that, with pixel art, the same thing can be interpreted in more than one way.
Lol yeah it’s pretty clear the ‘green thing’ isn’t a wall, it’s a differnt colour and texture and looks like a plant growth etc… however this is still the exact spot I am on also, as I just got the rope swing ability, but didn’t know to use it at that point! Tbh I didn’t try that since I got the ability but still… not sure if I would have figured it out, maby eventually. It’s Interesting being puzzled at the same place in a game but for different reasons. Yeah, could have shot the Nova at it to test if it really was a wall.
1:32 Honestly, the main reason it worked in Super Metroid so well was because every spot was memorable. You got a new item, saw what it could do... and knew right away were another way opened up now.
Also another thing that Axiom Verge has... is it seemingly is the only "Metroidvania" that is more "Metroid" then "Castlevania". Most Metroidvanias are melee based, not letting you run'n gun like Metroid did.
This is such a beautiful game! I actually only got stuck a single time, gave it a ton of thought, and found a way out. Didn't have to use the internet a single time.
y cant metroid crawl
These videos are really great, high quality content, so well put together, this channel should be going places. Keep up the great work!
Thanks! Plenty more planned :)
Mark Brown THAT is great to hear
Mark Brown Nice! Great content is always welcome, congrats.
I strongly agree. This is a great channel.
this is so wholesome to read
1:40
"y can't metroid crawl?"
I....hmmmm. Nope, not touching that one.
that's a fake, the original is from 2013
knowyourmeme.com/memes/subcultures/metroid
Because her armour's too bulky. ;P
(Seriously, though, Samus can crawl in the Zero Suit, in _Zero Mission_ . And as of _Fusion_ , she's part Metroid. Thus, she's a Metroid that can crawl when she's not wearing a fancy suit. ;P)
@@MrOmegatronic
No... Metroid is not Samus.
I swear, that triggered me so much 😂
@@jodyroane4219 in fusion Samus is part Metroid
As someone making a Metroidvania in their spare time. Thanks for making this. Gives me a lot of insight into what makes these games Metroidvania and not just a sidescrolling adventure game.
Booblord Ultimax You have a blog or something for your game?
I would study and think critically about the game design of Axiom Verge, I'm sure there are things to glean from it. Tom Happ is a truly talented designer. As someone with a game design degree, I am in awe of the game and how well its made.
Oh shit, whatcha making?
Ori and the blind forest is more focused on the fluid movement and the action jump-and-run aspects than on the metroidvenia style in my opinion. Awesome video though ^^
"You dont really know a place, until you get lost in it."
“Seems legit”
?
I see what you mean but
'the floor is made out of floor'
Axoim verge is one of my new favorite games of all time, it literally got me back into gaming as a whole and i'm now a small time streamer. i hope thomas makes a new game soon.
It took him multiple years to make that one...
Three years later...
www.nintendo.com/games/detail/axiom-verge-2-switch/
You got your wish Axiom Verge 2 dropped on switch yesterday
Personally, I was a big fan of Zero Mission's objective marking. The game wasn't constantly pointing out where to go, and even when it was, the marker was usually completely off the revealed portions of the map. The markers didn't tell you the path to your objective; they only gave you a simple hint as to where to look. Finding the secrets and hidden paths that lead you there was up to you, and it was nice to have something at least giving you a general idea of what part of the map to be scouring when you're getting desperate.
My first playthrough of Super Metroid had me lost in Norfair a lot longer than expected. Actually, after about an hour of making no progress at all, seemingly trying everything in every room twice, I ended up discovering a sequence-break and continued that way. (I think I used bomb jumps to get past a grapple hook bit, getting the super missiles early?) It was a frustrating experience, though, because the accessible area was pretty large, and the game is not above putting the critical path behind somewhat obscure secrets.
+Bitcoon It's actually hilarious how easy it is to sequence break in Super Metroid. My first playthrough of the game had me sequence breaking because I spent 10 minutes trying to get up to a point that required some precise wall-jumping. But I knew I could do it if I kept trying, and that's part of what makes Super Metroid special. First time through and I created my own experience that Nintendo didn't intend for me to have. That's a unique experience I'll never have in any other game.
Also, you can skip every statue in ZM after the first.
6 years late, but you find the super missiles in Brinstar, way before getting into Norfair.
@@legrandliseurtri7495 It might have been early power bombs. I definitely was stuck in a big, lava-y hot section of the map for hours searching every nook and cranny for some clue where I was supposed to go, and only made progress after some wall jump/bomb jump sequence break.
@@MaskedMammal The power bombs don't require the grapple beam. Maybe you weren't able to find the ice beam?
I liked how Metroid Prime handled this; after some time you would get a hint and a map-marker to investigate a certain area. But it only showed the room you need to go to, and didn´t reveal the whole map up to this room. So you still had to figure out how to get there. And, the best thing was that you could simply turn these hints completely off, so you never got any hints as to where to go next at all (like in Super Metroid). That´s how I played the game; I think I only turned the hints on again once or twice because I really was lost on my first playthrough on these occasions back in the day.
I want to disagree a little with Metroid Fusion and Zero Mission. Yes, they told you where to go, but they didn't tell you how to get there. Part of the joy of getting lost in a Metroid game is not just the spatial sense of getting lost, but the mental sense of "what do I do to advance?" which in Metroid is always satisfying to overcome.
+Aaron Bassow it was specially good when the target location was damn far away and you would think: Omg how am I supposed to go there from here??
Yeah, they told you where to go, but it wasn't a straight shot. When used like that, I think it is really good in a game, because it is a way of turning exploration into a puzzle; you get one piece and you get to figure out the rest.
This is especially true in Zero Mission because of the wide variety of ways one can sequence break in that game.
Fusion, yes it always showed you how to get there since doors are locked. With ZM, you can skip every single Chozo statue after the first one (Which is why the ZM is too linear complaint makes no sense), but also it didn't give you the map unless you chose to get it. That was the brilliance of both Super and ZM, there were options.
darkstar100x Yeah, but that isnt a flaw of Fusion, it was intended to make the game like that, a simple plot driven metroid game with horror elements, which is more linear that thebother titles in the franchise. Its a damn masterpiece like Super.
I was skeptical about Axiom Verge, but this video really helped to see how good it is. Thanks, man! I think I'll buy it next time it's on sale.
can we get a video like this on hollow knight? the map system alone is worth a whole episode
That game is godlike!
@Magnum Mountaineer Hollow Knoght is very good, it's actually my favorite Metroidvania, and I've played all Metroid games, Most Castlevania, Ori and the Blind Forest, and Axiom Verge.
@Magnum Mountaineer you wont regret it
Magnum Mountaineer YUP.
Your wish came true
The soundtrack in axiom verge is masterful.
Axiom Verge is one of the best games I've ever played and I'm glad you made a video about it
The thing i like the most about axion verge is the art style. It reminds me of Blame! the manga created by tsutomu nihei. Amazing scifi creatures and world design.
I agree, but my only gripe with the game is the reusing of tiles with different colors, but in all fairness, it was just one guy. Still a crazy amazing game.
@@Krucifus i didn't even noticed it
I think I wholeheartedly agree with this; Axiom Verge usually *did* leave me feeling lost (and quite afraid), but I was always happy to find my own way and power-ups. It's a great game, and I'd certainly recommend it for more than just the Metroidvanian aspects.
Wow, people becoming accustomed to an instantaneous solution to a problem has really changed the way developers go about making games.
It's like the difference between a well crafted meal, and a bag of potato chips.
Some people aren't willing to put in the Work to get something amazing, so they settle for something mediocre, and since that's all they know, they think anything different is horrible.
I actively avoid googling problems/road-blocks I encounter when playing games. (Except those obknoxious 'What enemy do I have to grind to gain item X I need for weapon Y' type of things)
Anything puzzle related (This includes, to some extend, boss fights), I force myself to figure out on my own. Came up with some creative solutions now and then and actually managed to find exploits and funny tricks on my own. It also deepened my knowledge of the game and how it works.
@@localSunMan Lol sounds like you were, fashion souls grinding.
🤔
I wish Bethesda did this more. Not every area and dungeon needs a quest tied to it, just make a dungeon and let the player find it. Hell, one of my favorite moments in gaming was finding a Ayleid Ruin in Oblivion, and just diving in with no quest marker. I used a turn undead spell to make the zombies run from me while I shot them in the back with my bow. I was RPing as a treasure hunter, and the Ayleid ruin more than suited that goal, even with a boss at the end which was a bitch to fight. It was amazing, as I managed to make off with the huge treasure at the end.
Only, much to my disappointment this treasure turned out to be a quest item, which I had to give to Martin in the main quest. They had me hooked, and then spoiled it with BS.
+Iconoclasm_ - You didn't get lost in Blackreach? That's probably my favorite dungeon of all time. I can still visit it today and get lost for a few hours.
+Just Johnny It still took a quest to get there. That's my problem. Imagine just finding Blackreach by stumbling across it when you're out adventuring. No quest markers, no key items, no locked doors, just a ruin and the area in it. Sure, Blackreach was big enough to have a quest attached to it, and they need to put quest stuff somewhere, but I'd like it if they just made side dungeons for people to discover. It would be actual discovery, and not feeling like a guided tour made by the game dev so you can see all of their work in a timely fashion.
+Iconoclasm_ Yes, I really hate the overabundance of quests in games - especially open world games like the elder scrolls games or MMORPGS.
I was blown away when I found the Dwarven ruins by accident in Skyrim.
Time to try out Breath of the Wild then.
Problem is a lot of new gamers on nongamers NEED a marker for at least motivation if not for fear of spending too much time getting lost.
In extreme cases when they get lost they fail to see the point of the game and then they quit.
If you want your game to do better financially then crutches like this sadly have to be considered.
I remember a video about someone's really old non-gamer dad who dedicated a whole year to finishing a hardcore game like Resident Evil 4, but refuses to play Journey since he failed to grasp the point of the game.
Then do it like ZM where they are optional and you never have to use the statues.
That's odd. To beat journey you just need to hold the analog forward.
There's a lot of truth in this message. It's not always just hand-holding but giving a newer player a point of direction. I recently got my girlfriend to play Ori & The Blind Forest and she loved it and persevered dying over and over again. When she'd ask me where to go I'd tell her to view the map and as long as she got that circle giving her a bit of direction it didn't make her feel too lost to where she wanted to give up. She's not a gamer-girl by any means but she does enjoy playing video games. I told her she didn't need to 100% every map and collect everything she just needed to beat the game. Yet....that's not what she wanted. At over 13 hours of game play on her first playthrough she had 100% completion. This was her first game of the Metroidvania genre and she gave it her all and honestly I couldn't be prouder of her. The thing is that little bit of direction kept her from getting discouraged and quitting because she always felt like she had a "critical path" to get too and knowing where she's been to use her new abilities on what she wasn't able to access before.
This Chanel helps me a lot, as a developer, I study how to make my upcoming game great and have these little touches that make it fun to play. Keep up the good work!!
Momodora: Reverie Under the Moonlight is a good Metroidvania, althought a bit more linear than some other games in the genre.
It's more like Dark Souls meets Kirby and the Amazing Mirror.
i just recently beat axiom verge (yesterday, in fact) and i kept feeling like i did something wrong because i was able to cross back over the spot mentioned at 5:02 by getting hit in midair and using that extra bounce to get across
this video is really informative and insightful, and i like it a lot
thank you
Okay, okay I give. I'll give Axiom Verge a go. Super Metroid is one of my all time fav games and while I've been familiar with Axiom Verge and thought it looked cool, the hero character I always found completely underwhelming with some dude in a tench coat and holding what looks like some kind of lobster for a gun. I just wish there was a different design for him. Nonetheless, it looks like classic, old-school Metroidvania and that many popular reviews on the game can't be wrong. I'll pick it up.
i played axiom and it was very underwhelming...i didn't understand the hype at all and really didn't enjoy it..the graphics were just ugly compared to super metroid which to this day still looks amazing. I also agree the main character is lame compared to samus aran as you said a guy in a labcoat with a lobster gun lol I think the biggest problem for me was the way it looked & lacked variety with enemies, bosses, levels it all looked very similar or just a simple change in color palette from green to blue to red whereas in super metroid each boss was so diff from the next & each region/level was vastly diff from the next including each region had its own enemies that were all very diff people who've played SM know exactly what I mean. I have nothing against 8bit graphics as I really enjoyed Bloodstained COTM. One thing I do agree on was the soundtrack was awesome loved the retro vibes in it.
@@peterc504 Same. Axiom Verge was too boring for me to even finish it
@@peterc504 I wouldn't say the game is ugly, the pixel art is really good. It just has a very bizarre, alien aesthetic that's meant to be off-putting. Also, saying Super Metroid has good enemy variety is a straight up lie. There are at least 3 variations of the same enemies you find early on in the game that move left and right through the air, crawl around walls and platforms, swoop down at you, and endlessly respawn from pipes and holes. It's true the game could have done more to make each area distinct, but as for the complaint the main character is "lame", that's kind of a stupid reason to dislike a game. Just because the main character isn't a total badass doesn't mean the game isn't good. Having a main character a bit closer to a normal person makes it easier to become emotionally invested in what they're going through.
@@100organicfreshmemes5 That's why I liked this game so much. Everything was wonderful, but Trace was my favorite thing in the entire game. He is not a hero. He doesn't want to be one and is not meant to be. Trace was brought to Sudra due to unfortunate events and he just wants to go back home. His mission to navigate Sudra and help the Rusalki is more of a deal, which he unwilling takes, because he still is good at heart and demonstrates empaty towards them. He is not ok with killing people, even if they did horrible things. Not every protagonist needs to be the "badass heroic" type, and I do think Trace has a lot of flavor as a character.
Great video. I have collected Metroidvania styled games since their inception and I enjoy your work. Some of the best I have experience since SotN and the Metroid saga are: Ori and the Blind Forest, Hollow Knight, Axiom Verge, Salt and Sanctuary, Strider, Sundered, Death's Gambit, Dust an Elysian Tail, Iconoclasts, Shadow Complex, The Mummy Demastered, Insanely Twisted Shadow Planet, Momodora, Outland, Ruiner, Song of the Deep and Dead Cells.
Entering Maridia is one of my favorite gaming memories in my 35 years of gaming (And I only played Super Metroid a few years ago.)
I feel soooooo stupid. When I played Axiom Verge, I never discovered the giant head that transports you through the hub in the center of the map. I walked it , EVERY SINGLE time.
Watching this after coming off the recent stuff shows how much you've progressed as a documentor!
Axiom Verge is one of the greatest games i played in my life. i don't really like Metroid because of the slow movement of Samus. Axiom Verge is a bit faster in movement an a bit more accurate to controll. I really loved this game and I'm much more astonished from the fact that this game was make complete by only one guy: Tom Happ!
I would have to agree. Amazing how the most polished game I've ever played was made by one guy. And yes, the movement as you upgrade gets to be ridiculous, but I love the progression. If you really want to see this game shine, watch a speedrunner play it.
Thanks for letting me know about Axiom Verge. It was a good game. When I walked into the room in Ukkin-na with Elsenova, I legit jumped out of my seat. The bosses were a little on the easy side, but there's always hard mode if I ever play this game again. :)
I hate guidepoints in video games. Instead of the player naturally navigating through the world, it turns every quest into "mindlessly follow the arrow". Zelda is a good example - the original is so thrilling just to wander around, while Skyward Sword feels like a chore. Link to the Past offers a good compromise - giving you a point on a map that's vague enough to not give everything away.
I also hate players who just blindly follow the paths and hints so they can get to the goal quickly.
One guy I dated kept pressing the "show direction" button in Bioshock Infinite, and he just looked at the ground and followed that green arrow, completely skipping the chance to explore anything in The Fair.
Needless to say, I dumped him soon afterwards.
+xFireGatezx I always just used that arrow to find secrets
I actually did notice the one-way gate at 5:00 in the video! I was somewhat thankful for it when I played, because I was getting lost on where to go next, and if the developers wanted me to slog through every last screen elsewhere in the game to find my next objective, I probably would have tossed it.
I'm definitely enjoying the objective-less design quite a bit in the game, especially when it works well. The only problem I tend to have with it is this: When you do find the right path, it's rewarding. When you beat a tough boss, it's rewarding. When you lose to a tough boss, it's okay. It's a fair punishment, you learn, the challenge is emphasized, and you're given the opportunity to try again. When you miss a critical path though, that's when players can encounter an incredibly frustrating experience worse than a hundred deaths to a boss.
I liked that Axiom made efforts to wall you off on the right side of the map to squeeze you in with the 8 or 9 upgrades you'll get over there. There's still some moments when I ended up looking a guide when I realized I was actually sighing at picking up the game to explore again. The intended ideas of leading players into dead ends and having them remember it had actually resulted in some probably quite-unintended moments where I would miss the key to progressing and simply trek backwards looking for the real next stage.
I won't deny this much: I messed up when this happened. There were things I should have noticed, and it's okay that the game didn't just say "Hey, you missed this thing!" But I also mess up when a boss manages to kill me. We all mess up pretty often in these games. Usually, when you mess up, you're given a slap on the wrist, resolve to improve your strategy, whether it means working harder to dodge bullets, using better attack strategies, or in this case remembering to notice and explore every odd-looking block, and then you continue. Compared to other player failures, missing a critical path causes such a vastly larger punishment because it means you're left loading from a save game, looking at an enormous, unmarked map screen, and going "...Um."
So this is why other games do provide objective markers. They're definitely not always the best way of providing this information, as intelligent players usually don't need something so overt as a constant arrow. Usually, all that's needed is something like a well-worded journal entry to serve as your objective; something to remind the player of a bit of context, and maybe general pointers to a location. I also thought it good that games like Ori put a point on your map, but it's way off in the darkness such that you only know of a general direction, and to start poking holes in the environment somewhere on that side. This is especially critical for the oft-forgotten players like me who drift between games and may spend weeks or months away from a particular one.
And, just to avoid making it sound like I dislike Axiom, I do like they added the feature to pin reminders on the map. I wish you could pin more of them, and that they could be graphical in some way to give an idea like "When I can jump higher, go here" but having it is definitely a good idea. It's something I used a lot of in Aquaria, one of my favorite Metroidvanias that similarly uses this idea of taking away objective markers.
This video came out way before Metroid Dread, but I feel like Dread did an amzing job of telling us where to go and what to do. You didn't get lost too often, but there were moments of "oh no, I can't get back in there," like the escape sequence in the first area (I forget what it's called) where you have to flee the crumbling ceilings as the temperature rises- and then you get Varia suit that protects you from heat. And then later, everything freezes over and you get trapped again.
Just picked up Axiom Verge for $10 on PSN last week, waited til I beat it to watch the video just in case. It was a lot of fun, managed to get around 75% items and 90% map on my own before deciding to beat it. I like how most bosses had a trick making it fairly easy (but it was hard at first until you learn the pattern/trick). I wish they had prompted you to try out the axiom disruptor more though because I didn't know it was useful for more than just getting past the corrupt blocks/walls (albeight in only a few places, which is part of the issue there).
I still love the opening and start of Metroid 3, it is probably the most brilliant beginning to a game ever. Creepy space station where you're all alone everyone is dead and oh, Hi Ridley! Then back on the planet, OMG you're going through the end section of the original Metroid where it starts out all lifeless before making your way back out where it is all alive now and backwards from the end section to the beginning section, whew!
As for AV, i think the hallucination route was the most brilliant. You are locked in until you get the trenchcoat, simply because of level design and the specific placement of just 2 or three blocks. Really sealed in the feeling of, "Oh, crap, Trace is dying, we have to find Ophelia, and these dang flying machines are so hard to kill!" You can't just leave the area and come back, you're stuck in a LITERAL nightmare until you reach that mock boss battle. Works from both a story and gameplay perspective. Tom Happ is a freaking genius and wish this game got as much love as, say, Undertale.
I'm currently stuck a little after half way through Axiom Verge right now
This video is exactly what I was looking for. No answers, only shared enjoyment of cluelessness
It's really strange to me how these games are often referred to as "Metroidvania games". That term was meant for the Castlevania games that incorporated Metroid design aspects. Now it is used for games that have nothing to do with Castlevania (aside from also borrowing elements from Metroid). Anyway, another great video, sir.
Great video. Rabi-Ribi is a recently released Metroidvania that is massively underrated right now, probably because it has a weeaboo aesthetic and relatively difficult gameplay (boss battles contain bullet hell). It makes the mistake you mentioned early in the video, as you are told where to find each "friend" (i.e. boss) - however, it's still quite fun to discover various hidden items around the world, which are never directly revealed to you.
Another great thing about Axiom Verge was that the nature of its powerup designs hide many of the prior paths in plain sight. You start to realize how many new paths you may have missed along the way, simply because you didn't realize that the paths existed. So while there were some memorable hooks for most abilities, there's still plenty of rewards for exploring beyond the obvious. I suppose that's similarly the case for many of Super Metroid's ability-broken walls.
Thanks for the episode. I was thinking about the subject as I'm playing Dust: An Elysian tail. It doesn't make you feel lost or forces you to backtrack, but it does gives you a certain satisfaction.
LA-MULANA should really satisfy you, no hand holding at all! one of the best metroidvania and one of the best game i ever played IMO!
It's way too obtuse and impossible without a guide though. a good Metroidvania should not be one that virtually requires a guide or FAQs to get through it. IMO of course, but I have some experience here.
Dave Fillion
Except ONE puzzle, i didn't had to use a FAQ, every puzzle has a tablet or something else that gives you a hint or a way to solve it! You have to write it down at least, cause there's a lot of information to remember! Use a pen and paper, like a lot of games at the times, i personally love it
Was that the "Search on bended knee for a single fallen item" puzzle?
Getting the player lost is part of what made Dark Souls so great and maybe the only thing lacking in Bloodborne... No more hidden bonfires, secret walls, Boss just around the corner, most levels are "systematic", without much surprises... :/
About metroidvanias, too many have been released these years and it's hard to get really lost now, once you know the way it works, obstacle, new weapon, backtracking, etc...
That's why I was really interested by your video about Toki Tori 2, I played that this week-end and I loved it ! So much to learn from this game. Keep up the good work :)
I've been so lost in Axiom Verge and you showed how to get out of it. Now I know I need to explore more. Back into the adventure!
very well done, I adored axiom verge within minutes of starting and I got lost too, I agree that it's better that way rather than for the game to hold your hand and point you in the right direction. adventure games should be about exploration and Axiom did it right. I just wish we could have fought elsanova, that would have been fun I bet
Very good analysis of the Metroid games. Made me realize how well designed they are.
The moment of your mind going back to think of all the places the item you just received potentially unlocks is also why randomisers (ie a link to the past randomisers) work so well.
Axiom verge has some of the best game music I've ever heard
Check out Axiom Verge 2! It finally came out for PC and the soundtrack is genius. I even like the game more than the first one.
I was amused by your example around 5:10. You're supposed to climb that chamber with the Ice Beam, yeah, but you can also do it at any time by wall jumping. When I couldn't find the Ice Beam I spent hours stubbornly trying to climb up the chamber until I finally made it out of there. Railroading players is hard!
The use of old school graphics on modern hardware really help the game capture the "vibe" of the original Metroid. Axiom Verge even (very creatively) uses the visual language of old school gaming glitches to evoke the same feelings one might get stumbling into Metroid's actual glitches.
literally taking notes
I got lost in Axiom Verge and I never got lost in Super Metroid, one of my favorites of all time from back in the day, even on my 1st playthrough back when the game came out as a kid. Metroid had good direction even when it wasn't telling you precisely where to go, it'd give you hints and lead you in the general right directions, and show you things early in the game that you needed to remember later once you had the right ability/power up. Just great game design.
thats why i like the castlevania "reborn gameplay" games so much, they dont tell you what to do, you gotta listen to what the characters talk to each other in the cinematics to know what to do, and even so, the game doesnt have a "dairy/log" where you can see your objectives, to remember your objectives you gotta talk to some npc at the beginning of the game or in certain parts which will ask you about your mission, and then your characters answer is your current objective, additionally, there arent "no return rooms" that make you get locked in a certain part, instead, after you get an abbility, or defeat a boss, your character will give you a hint of where to go, but that place wont be marked on the map, so that is indeed nice :)
Fascinating video. Game developers need to let us be lost sometimes. I'm fairly interested in getting Axiom Verge now.
I love Axiom Verge, and how Super Metroid handles the exploration... But I can BARELY play Super Metroid. It's not because of the difficulty or the lost part... But because of the physics and controls.
I've beaten Zero Mission and Fusion multiple times, and I also beat AM2R recently as well. So it's not that I'm bad at the games. I'm just not used to the physics or controls of Super Metroid. You move a lot slower, jump and fall a lot slower, shoot slower, and have no power grip if you miss your mark with the jump. Which happens a lot more often for me, because of the gravity.
Missiles and upgrades are entirely different from the other games as well. Rather than being able to hold down a button and activate missiles or power bombs in a split second, you either have to fire the missiles or fire normal shots. It's easy when you only have missiles, because you can just press select quickly to turn them on and off. But once you get all FIVE upgrades that use this system, you have to be really careful. I wasted all my super missiles fighting kraid, because I thought I'd switched back to my beam and hadn't.
It's one of the main reasons I hope the FSMR project takes off, and allows for the controls to be set up in the same way AM2R does. Because I LOVE Super Metroid's aiming. Much better than the GBA aiming. But I want the power grip, the high heavy gravity, and the simpler hold and fire missile controls, that the later Metroid games have.
At the same time, I don't want the graphics or music to change to much. They still hold up well, and from what little I have played of Super Metroid thanks to Project Base's heavier physics patch... I think the game is pretty fun.
yeah, I really prefer the controls of ZM, AM2R and of Fusion. I still really love Super Metroid, but don't feel like replaying it that often.
Use the GBA Style romhack. Makes it control just like ZM.
Just shows that there are always different tastes, I for one actually prefer Super's physics over the gba ones! (and am2r).
I like the weird gravity. Partly because it sells this, to me, as an alien planet with different properties. Most alien planets in fiction have exactly the same gravity as Earth (mostly for practical reasons) but in games we can do things differently.
I also played SM first, and the controls of these other games actually work much worse for me.
Honestly my least favorite part of these games is getting lost. I've shelved some totally because I had no clue and wasted hours trying to find the ONE spot on the map that progress can be made. The worst part of Axiom Verge is that the map is split up into sections for NO reason at all. Salt and Sanctuary doesn't have a map or directions but I got through it just fine. Backtracking with new powers is only fun when you remember where those powers will work... but not even knowing what the powers will be kind of makes marking it a moot point.
EDIT: Further problems: the grapple controls are really hit or miss, the music needs sound leveling, the "each enemy might require a certain weapon" mechanic which is just guesswork, enemies that hit you right on the other side of a door instantly... the list goes on. It's an okay game and the story kept me going, but enemies that fly through the environment, completely useless weapons and HORRIBLE weapon changing on a controller, gimmick bosses (some aren't even real bosses), unavoidable enemies (pinweel bastards), and IMO worst of all is not being able to aim and move (accurately). The stick mechanic blows - the right thumbstick exists now so don't use it for weapon selection, that's just stupid.
I agree 100% with everything you said. I have almost 10 hours of play and I am seriously thinking about quitting the game.
Most of the things you listed did not bother me, though I would prefer aiming and movement to be totally separate. What bothered me most: A few abilities being keybind-"clustered" especially double tap to teleport. Decades of doing little tapping nudges for movement that I will never unlearn means I'm often flying randomly all over the place with the red coat. That said, these gripes are ultimately minor, overtakable quibbles that should stop no one from trying out this fun and imaginative adventure. The tone and dream like vibe is worth the experience. For all the comparisons, Axiom Verse is in so many other ways, nothing like Metroid. Totally unique.
Maybe some of this is just due to the experience being something I was less familiar with compared to the many Metroid games I've played, but where I'd often feel in Metroid like I was just going from one newly accessible area to the next after each upgrade I got, playing Axiom Verge felt like I was just exploring. I was going in wherever direction my mind led me, finding something new and interesting and getting immersed in the world every step of the way. The only time I got lost was on the way to the final upgrade since the map didn't make it very clear that I hadn't explored that area yet.
I'm 4 years late to the party...but have been enjoying your videos tremendously. Especially this one, and Celeste, as I just finished my first run through of Axiom, and my 5th on Celeste. Such well put together content, sir!
I just bought a Nintendo switch and Axiom Verge after watching this video.....it didn't disappoint!!! This game is amazing!!!
This was actually my favorite game programming video. It is really does explain my favorite type of game play.
I love Metroid but was hesitant to buy Axiom Verge, until I watched your video. Just bought it on the eshop and excited to jump in and get lost! 😎
Personally, I'd say the moment where you get a new ability in a metroidvania is best designed when it works like a well designed puzzle in a point'n'click adventure game - since in essence, this IS an inventory puzzle, boiled down to its essentials - you get a new item, and you have to figure out what to do with it.
My favourite genres of games are metroidvania games (mostly platformers), and point'n'click adventure games - and I doubt this is just a coincidence that I adore both of them, since they're actually very similar in aesthetics of play they offer.
I personally HAAATED trying to play through super metroid and zero mission, specifically because I was almost always lost (probably due to my less than great memory)...but I guess not every genre is for everyone.
Broo! My friends dad worked on axiom verge! To see it reviewed is awsome!
i also love that feeling of finding a hidden challenge that's just a little bit too hard, but remembering where it is and coming back to it once you get a new skill and crushing it and feeling incredible. Hollow Knight does that perfectly with a ton of challenges that are just barely off the beaten path that require some skill and upgrades to reach
I appreciate how you handled the Sixth Sense plot twist, people who know about it get it and people who don't aren't really spoiled. A small thing, but nice anyway.
Really good video. I often feel the same about games that force me to know the way from A to B. Minecraft is a good example too about how the feeling of getting lost enhance the experience.
I just finished this game 2 days ago and it’s really good. The secret world think bugged me but others than that it was so good. The second game was so different and still so good.
What a way to welcome Axiom Verge 2 by watching this again.
Good video. I want to add that this kind of designing the levels was also super important for classic survival horror titles (which is what made them so interesting to explore) and, as you point out, also resurfaced in a more Zelda-inspired Souls/BB series. It great to have helpful maps and hints at what to do next (especially for those who can't play long in one session and might need a refresher for when they return), but it is also insanely fun to have the constant "a-ha!" moment when you see return to a place you've been to after exploring a new pathway. When dots connect in new ways in your mental map of the game, not just in the ingame map.
Btw, I don't know if you've ever played those, but I would suggest trying out La-Mulana and Knytt series. They tackle the metroid-like level design in other ways, but are still extremely fun to explore and have an adventure.
I'm not so sure on this one. While it's good for a game like this to avoid simply telling you which way to go, These other methods can sometimes be more of a pain in the long run too. For instance with games like these I've often found myself remembering a significant detail in a room that I'm supposed to come back to later, but then forgetting where the room is. Or perhaps I'm remembering something that's not relevant yet, and it becomes a red herring and a waste of time distracting me from what I should really be looking for. Getting lost can be annoying too. It can break the pacing of a game, and have you wasting time and resources achieving essentially nothing, and making no progress. I get that these games are about taking it slow and not necessarily constantly moving at a fast pace, but that doesn't mean the alternative has to be the kind of thing I've described. It's a hard balance to strike, and even good games get it wrong sometimes.
+Scrustle I think there was a Zelda game where you could draw things on a map yourself. It's a solution I really liked.
+Aku phex Wind Waker?
@@daptor1427 I loved drawing on the in-game map in Phantom Hourglass! The pins in latter games and the additional quest log and hero path in BotW satisfy the same needs, but I did enjoy drawing straight on the map. Writing notes on the map you create in the Etrian Odyssey series is similar.
I am in 2 minds about guide markers. I am loving Hollow Knight which has one of the un-guidey maps ever...but I also love games like Fusion. On the one hand, forcing you to get lost and find your way organically in hollow knight is awesome, partially down to the countless ways you can progress so you are rarely stumbling around and not making progress. Whilst in a guidey game, they typically put the marker somewhere you haven't been, often quite a distance away and you have to figure the puzzle out. It also, in my opinion, nudges you towards exploring more. Being told where to go translates to "the cool shit is in the other direction" to me. I like both. Can't say I would want every game like Hollow Knight, nor would I only like Fusion. There are places for both, and both can be done very well.
5:08 I played this part recently (on the SNES Classic) and managed to get back up using the wall jump... tricky that. 2:53 Got onto this ledge the same way without the high jump. Muscle memory has served me well!
Guacamelee was also hella good, even if it did do some hand holding. Also, I never got the brain to give me a lift through [Indra?] so I'll have to go find how to do that.
I was hoping this video would convince me to play Axiom Verge, but i felt like most of the video was spent complimenting the design choices in Super Metroid. Ah well, i think I will give AV a look.
AV's strengths lie more in what it doesn't copy from super metroid, as opposed to what it does copy. Metroidvanias (even non-hand-holdy ones) are dime a dozen, but AV manages to be different enough to be worth playing.
I just realised that a lot of this applies to Antichamber too, though it does give you a map of sorts (showing connectedness, not actual layout, because the latter is impossible).
" because the latter is impossible"
Tee hee. I love that game.
OMG using the super bomb in that crateria tube or whatever it was. Madness.
Just completed axiom verge the other day on the vita, having heard it was a good metroidvania and it didn’t disappoint. Great game and this is fantastic analysis of why that is
Axiom Verge is such an outstanding game and needs more love. For another great example of allowing players to get lost and figure it out on their own in more recent memory is Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night. It'll give you a nudge in the right direction here and there but it does not hold your hand for most of the game. As much as I love the Ori games, Guacamelee games and many others they just don't respect the players' intelligence enough.
Your videos are amazing! Thank you for all the knowledge
I like these older videos because I feel Mark wasn't afraid of being more critical of acclaimed games.
5:25 Hub-and-spokes system? I smell a future Boss Keys...
I legit came back 3 times to that jump, thinking I both couldn't go any further AND that a new ability would allow me to go back.
SAME!!
Everytime i got an ability i was like "Ok now THIS will let me get back" and NOPE
5:13 This video is 5 years old, but I’ve seen the exact same reference to this room in Super Metroid a billion times on this channel. I walljumped up that room at first because I didn’t get that I was supposed to continue on
This is the reason why Gothic 3 is my favorite RPG on PC. The extremely memorable landscapes, cities, and NPCs combined with the almost useless map made me feel a sense of exploration I only ever felt again in Breath of the Wild so far. I could easily name its 23 cities and at least 5 NPCs and quests in each of them whereas I cannot remember a single city in Oblivion for example. Gothic 3 is a completely overlooked masterpiece that was way ahead of its time.
5:15 You can climb up the Tower using wall jumps. Simple trick that the game shows you with the Etecoons. It is just often overlooked.
It seems that BOTW was a good recent example of this exact philosophy, of allowing the player to get lost, unbound by location waypoints.
I love both Axiom Verge and Ori, i can't wait for the second part, sequel, whatever of both!!
I mean, if watching speedruns has taught me anything, it's that you are not, in fact, completely locked in that room with the rippers. But that's a whole 'nother story.
Fusion is interesting in its own way, as you soon realize that the straightforward path to your objective which the map is showing you is never actually available. The would-be clue is actually more of a puzzle. Also, the enemies tend to be trickier and more aggressive than their Super and Zero Mission counterparts, which is neat. Those elongated, unskippable dialogues can die though. The best part about Zero Mission is all the alternate play-style challenges which are tied to an in-game achievement system in the form of the photo gallery. I do hate how the interface doesn't even tell you they exist, though.
if fusion only allowed dialogue-skipping, i would absolutely be of the unpopular opinion that it's one the best metroids.
The enemy placement was also really well done, even later in the game.
eh... I don't know... some placements were are little dickish for me in the last zone. I know the goal was to force us to dodge and rush past them, but sometimes it wasn't obvious how exactly to do it.
thx for good review. seems this is much metroidvania style than current style games.
Getting lost in axiom verge was great! Until ONE part. I got so lost that I backtracked through EVERY PART OF THE MAP that I had been to, and this was near the end of the game, so it was a LOT of backtracking. that was pretty frustrating. Though looking back, it was my own fault and not the game's.
Axiom Verge is one of the most smartly designed games I've ever played.
And it also has the greatest soundtrack.
Done by one person.
It's extremely polished, too. I encountered 0 bugs over my many playthroughs (though I'm sure a few exist) which is quite rare considering the game is packed to the brim with abilities, upgrades, and weapons.
I was a little dissapointed in Axiom Verge (I had such big expectations). The world didn’t always seem very interesting to explore, partly because the purpose being there felt so vague. The areas became old very fast, too… Still, the game has a few REALLY fascinating and innovative things that made my jaw drop but other parts of the gameplay felt a little bland.
Axiom Verge is good, but also a little overrated. It's certainly a fresh version in a known genre (which can't be said of most such games), and I can't give the developer enough props for doing everything on his own. But there's a few spots where things kinda fell apart. Boss design is one of them... bosses tend to have a combination of very repetitive patterns with high hp which turns most fights into an endurance match. That is, unless you know "the trick", which often makes the boss stupid easy (walking behind Telal, for example, is pretty ridiculous). Other bosses have attacks that are nearly impossible to consistently avoid (e.g. sentinel, ukhu and the final boss), making them often quite annoying and finnicky to defeat, particularly in higher difficulties/low % runs.
I quite like the world, and I especially like how it avoided clichés of the "lava area" or the "grass area" etc, but the bosses spoil it a bit for me.
People who love Metroidvanias need to experience La-Mulana. It's the best of the genre. No contest.
9 years ago!? god dayom time really do flies huh
What makes Super Metroid great among other things, is that you have a wall-climb-jump and mockball mechanic (almost) right from the beginning, but it's too hard and too unobvious to use it only couple of hours in the game. It takes a lot of time to use and master it. But still, the game is designed to utilize this mechanic. You can't say, getting early supermissile, pre-highjump Kraid or early wave-beam wasn't "designed". For me, Super Metroid is still hot, because there's a gameplay-mechanic level underneath the surface, and damn this is so noteworthy and enjoyable. Other Metroidvania games seem to lack this content of long-term motivation.