All this questioning on CTT about how memory and consciousness works is sometimes interesting from the perspective of the brain’s mechanical structure and processes like the matter discussed in this presentation. However, it doesn’t look into why memory which is selective in regards to the remembering function and what’s behind the like and dislike registering of images and emotions. The recollection of past memories is the ground of the psychological world because the like/dislike mix colours the response mechanism that provides meaning to the understanding that constitutes the self. Truth per se can not be known, but our problems psychologically requires looking into the depth of past knowledge and experience that informs the present comprehension and attempts to forecast the future, all from this faulty memory background, sometimes with pleasant feelings and at other times brings back very powerful hurtful stuff that upset the psyche. So what’s the chance of opening up dialogues
When Doctor says there is no actual storage, but can recognize if it is new or old or have you heard/read this before, then what does brain compare that to? Some other storage?
Good but still skips the key question: how do we retrieve memory? If some combination of chemicals occur in our body when some particular event occurs, then it's understandable that the same combination reoccurs when that same event happens again. That makes sense. But how do our brain recognise that that combination had occurred previously in our body? How exactly? 2:00 "Some neuronal circuitry detects whether that combination of states is old or new".🤔
We actually create new physical matter just by learning something new. The "neuron" (if that is the word) that is produced by that learning then registers the repetition of what produced that "neuron". Every "memory" is just the re-activation of a former experience. You can't "remember" what you have never done...
I wonder, if you close the eyes to your pet (cat, dog, etc.) - will it remember where the food is and where the door is? If so, does the pet's memory storage reside in the pet's brain? If the memory is external, does the pet have an immortal soul? Then again, do nice pets go to heaven, but wild killer predators (wolves, eagles, sharks) do not go to heaven? Does the predator species have a choice, to kill or not to kill? Why God created predators with claws and fangs, - for the prey to get life lessons?
Memory is also interesting with regards to mental illnesses such as PTSD in which the brain associates non-threatening situations with a threatening situation to re-activate the same fear that they experienced in the past. Even with CPSTD and emotional flashbacks. They all rely on incorrect associations with the memory.
According to the TNGS, memory is a process of dynamic recategorization. It is a system process, not identifiable with any particular group of neurons or area in the brain. It's becoming clear that with all the brain and consciousness theories out there, the proof will be in the pudding. By this I mean, can any particular theory be used to create a human adult level conscious machine. My bet is on the late Gerald Edelman's Extended Theory of Neuronal Group Selection. The lead group in robotics based on this theory is the Neurorobotics Lab at UC at Irvine. Dr. Edelman distinguished between primary consciousness, which came first in evolution, and that humans share with other conscious animals, and higher order consciousness, which came to only humans with the acquisition of language. A machine with primary consciousness will probably have to come first. The thing I find special about the TNGS is the Darwin series of automata created at the Neurosciences Institute by Dr. Edelman and his colleagues in the 1990's and 2000's. These machines perform in the real world, not in a restricted simulated world, and display convincing physical behavior indicative of higher psychological functions necessary for consciousness, such as perceptual categorization, memory, and learning. They are based on realistic models of the parts of the biological brain that the theory claims subserve these functions. The extended TNGS allows for the emergence of consciousness based only on further evolutionary development of the brain areas responsible for these functions, in a parsimonious way. No other research I've encountered is anywhere near as convincing. I post because on almost every video and article about the brain and consciousness that I encounter, the attitude seems to be that we still know next to nothing about how the brain and consciousness work; that there's lots of data but no unifying theory. I believe the extended TNGS is that theory. My motivation is to keep that theory in front of the public. And obviously, I consider it the route to a truly conscious machine, primary and higher-order. My advice to people who want to create a conscious machine is to seriously ground themselves in the extended TNGS and the Darwin automata first, and proceed from there, by applying to Jeff Krichmar's lab at UC Irvine, possibly. Dr. Edelman's roadmap to a conscious machine is at arxiv.org/abs/2105.10461
I like this idea, it means quantum particles patterns that our brain is composed of can never be replicated. Brain is not made from transistors or any kind of electronics, it's field interactions all the way down. It's hard to visualize how fast light is on a sub atomic scale, if it can travel 360.000 km in one second, than a single beam of light can bounce trillions of times between neuronal synapses, in just a split of a second. And we have trillion brain cells, each emitting and bouncing their own light waves. A trillion times trillion makes a lot of signals. When we say something happened in an instant, what we really mean is incredible amounts of information were traveling over neuronal paths, just being able to detect a slight anomaly. Interesting thing is, we get aware of anomaly much faster than we can comprehend what happened. It's like that synaptic blob extend outside our brain, connecting to outside reality directly. Makes sense, since our sensitive organs and skin are full of neuronal cells, growing from a brain. Than there's that mental feedback, when synapses are telling conscious self how to interpret reality. This is where memories start to form, it's not just what we were thinking but also where we were learning about things and how did we feel in general at that present times. Therefore brain doesn't really remember anything, it became things that happened to it. Phenomena has more to do with how universe really is than what we think universe is, it's not a thing inside other things but a continuous flow of some kind. This is a very interesting physical phenomena, when we try to remember things or contemplate past events, we are actually alive and aware, but not mentally present in temporal real space. Our body is an object, but our mind exist in all internal past at once. I would dare to say this is a strong example universe is alive and self aware somehow, since we can see it's entire past.
@@Δενβρισκωνικ Would be fun to brake down and examine things further, but i can't do that right away, already wrote another complicated deductive reasoning and it should be enough for now. It's important to make a break or thought just flow as a water.
@@xspotbox4400 It was fun to scrutinize things more closely. It is important to know the ratio of gravity to the ratio of water to the ratio of life to the flow of water forming the water and life cycle.
Profound to think of what he said at 1:50, ¨memory is really not a concrete entity that is stored anywhere, it is just a likely hood that something is going to happen again in a way that is similar to the way it happened before.¨
Memory is possible because entire history of the universe has a real structure. Strange how it sounds, universe remembers everything, like literally every single event that ever happened and this memory can never go away. Look at the night sky if you don't believe me, it's all still there, just as it really happened. That is why some people think memory could be stored outside our brain, every single cell of our body radiate energy and this signals are stored in cosmic structure. It's not even a theory but a solid fact nobody can deny. But does physical reality means we can access cosmic memory with our conscious mind, this is another question. Partially we can and do this all the time, perception of outside reality is connection with cosmic memory, since we can't ever touch other things but only sense and emit influences from distant objects traveling to us over time. More over, this is how our new memories are formed, new events emerge from interactions with cosmic past. Therefore cosmic memory is interaction by definition, we also radiate influence into environment that became somebodies else's cosmic past, just by being a separate and autonomous entity, connected in a web of energy exchange. Only our internal memory function independent from cosmic structure, our thoughts are still a part of cosmic flow, but there's also a self aware agent inside us who perceive his own past. 3 things are in play here, one is physical structure, other is unique perspective of our body and third is imaginary self, all three store and track their own memory lanes. There might be a forth system, perhaps body separate physical flow from neuronal coherent sense of a whole. And this biological being give rise to conscious self from own internal mechanics. Than we should make two distinctive composites, one type of memory is combination of universe and our material body, other kind of memory is constructedfrom neuronal activity and hallucinations. This gives us one convergence point, where memory of universe and memory of self must come together somehow, one real and other imaginary memory. One ever lasting and other just a temporal anomaly., like our minds are an independent memory buffer inside cosmic memory structure. Nobody is born with consciousness after all, our brains contain biological memories from a moment when we are born, but no self. This is why we can't remember anything before our ego was formed and we couldn't describe anything we remember if we wouldn't learn how to speak. This give us another distinction, symbolic memory is constructed from words and is not how we feel about ourselves.
Who I am is my memory. What I am is my memory. What I experienced is my memory. What I learnt is my memory. What I planed is my memory. What I predicted is my memory. How I felt is my memory. How far I can retrieve memory depends on how much concentration or repeat of Consciousness sensing was given to those. Now question is who is reading the retrieved memories to give a feeling of I know it. Answer is my MIND at conscious or subconscious state. Puzzle is what is dream and how I experience new or same dreams at subconscious or unconscious state.
individual brain cell is capable of complex pattern recognition. Electrodes implanted deep in the brains of epileptic patients have detected single neurons dedicated to the recognition of a particular person in different situations and guises. A Clinton cell, for example, would respond not only to various photos of the former president but also to a line drawing. Itzhak Fried UCLA research “thinking cells” in the brains neuroscientists may be forced to overhaul their view of how the human brain works.
Time doesn't apply to memory, it's multidimensional construct, not a material thing. But this is precisely why phenomena is most interesting, how can anything violate time?
@@hyperduality2838 What if we both use same clock, does this mean you look at different clock than me or we both look at same clock at different moments? Space is a box and time is measure of clock intervals. Knowledge is state of hierarchical facts. Idea is state of some facts.
Just want you to know your cat stories are great. Write down more observations, than merge them all in one text. This is what a Schrodinger's cat really is, it became real object only after you perform many elaborations, all converging into an animal front of you. If cat will still be alive before you finish your experiment, that is, can't know that just by adding descriptions of what your cat was until than. I'm not saying you want to kill your cat like Schrodinger, but knowing your cat's past and properties will determine it's behavior and general condition. You interact because you know, cat react because it can remember, therefore observation of a cat will cause change in a cat just because some past events repeat more often than they would if you didn't remember what cat was. More over, you couldn't think about yourself while observing what your cat is doing and how it's like, those memories from your past are now linked with history of your cat. It would not be so if i wouldn't remind you about possibility of this experiment, but part of natural randomness is now ruined for all of us. Memories can have real and wide spread effects, problem is, memories doesn't exist in any solid, never changing form, but entire past of reality does.
@Martyr4JesusTheChrist RAM is significantly faster than a hard disk - twenty to a hundred times faster, depending on the specific hardware type and task. Because of its speed, RAM is used to process information immediately. When you want to accomplish a specific task, computer operating systems load data from the hard disk into RAM to process it, such as to sort a spreadsheet or to display it on screen. When it’s done actively “doing something,” the computer (sometimes at your instruction) saves it into long term storage.
memory is meat. It can’t be anything else. space and time is created by the brain to allow us to perceive a world. trying to define memory in space and time is like trying to support a roof structure from the roof structure while ignoring what is really providing the support. He’s running like Wile E Coyote!....eventually he will realise there is nothing under his feet and................. :)
I don’t even need too, not against it (removes bias) I was referring to memory of an object tho... this also applies to scientific carbon dating, I just wanted a new way to say entropic breakdown can’t be tracked it’s actually called Maxwell’s demon. I like talking in abstract tho
All this questioning on CTT about how memory and consciousness works is sometimes interesting from the perspective of the brain’s mechanical structure and processes like the matter discussed in this presentation. However, it doesn’t look into why memory which is selective in regards to the remembering function and what’s behind the like and dislike registering of images and emotions. The recollection of past memories is the ground of the psychological world because the like/dislike mix colours the response mechanism that provides meaning to the understanding that constitutes the self. Truth per se can not be known, but our problems psychologically requires looking into the depth of past knowledge and experience that informs the present comprehension and attempts to forecast the future, all from this faulty memory background, sometimes with pleasant feelings and at other times brings back very powerful hurtful stuff that upset the psyche. So what’s the chance of opening up dialogues
Is it possible that thoughts, memories and consciousness are outside the brain, and that our brains act more like receivers
Conclusion: We know fuck all about the brain
When Doctor says there is no actual storage, but can recognize if it is new or old or have you heard/read this before, then what does brain compare that to? Some other storage?
Rob the Bilder
Goddamnit you beat me to it but Bob is also short for Robert… so I win
Good but still skips the key question: how do we retrieve memory?
If some combination of chemicals occur in our body when some particular event occurs, then it's understandable that the same combination reoccurs when that same event happens again. That makes sense. But how do our brain recognise that that combination had occurred previously in our body? How exactly?
2:00 "Some neuronal circuitry detects whether that combination of states is old or new".🤔
We actually create new physical matter just by learning something new. The "neuron" (if that is the word) that is produced by that learning then registers the repetition of what produced that "neuron". Every "memory" is just the re-activation of a former experience. You can't "remember" what you have never done...
I wonder, if you close the eyes to your pet (cat, dog, etc.) - will it remember where the food is and where the door is? If so, does the pet's memory storage reside in the pet's brain? If the memory is external, does the pet have an immortal soul? Then again, do nice pets go to heaven, but wild killer predators (wolves, eagles, sharks) do not go to heaven? Does the predator species have a choice, to kill or not to kill? Why God created predators with claws and fangs, - for the prey to get life lessons?
With every passing year,
Khun more eerily resembles Einstein. 🤓☺️
Imagine straight out of bed or a windstorm 😅😭
Add volume to that hair and we've got something haha
Memory is also interesting with regards to mental illnesses such as PTSD in which the brain associates non-threatening situations with a threatening situation to re-activate the same fear that they experienced in the past. Even with CPSTD and emotional flashbacks. They all rely on incorrect associations with the memory.
According to the TNGS, memory is a process of dynamic recategorization. It is a system process, not identifiable with any particular group of neurons or area in the brain.
It's becoming clear that with all the brain and consciousness theories out there, the proof will be in the pudding. By this I mean, can any particular theory be used to create a human adult level conscious machine. My bet is on the late Gerald Edelman's Extended Theory of Neuronal Group Selection. The lead group in robotics based on this theory is the Neurorobotics Lab at UC at Irvine. Dr. Edelman distinguished between primary consciousness, which came first in evolution, and that humans share with other conscious animals, and higher order consciousness, which came to only humans with the acquisition of language. A machine with primary consciousness will probably have to come first.
The thing I find special about the TNGS is the Darwin series of automata created at the Neurosciences Institute by Dr. Edelman and his colleagues in the 1990's and 2000's. These machines perform in the real world, not in a restricted simulated world, and display convincing physical behavior indicative of higher psychological functions necessary for consciousness, such as perceptual categorization, memory, and learning. They are based on realistic models of the parts of the biological brain that the theory claims subserve these functions. The extended TNGS allows for the emergence of consciousness based only on further evolutionary development of the brain areas responsible for these functions, in a parsimonious way. No other research I've encountered is anywhere near as convincing.
I post because on almost every video and article about the brain and consciousness that I encounter, the attitude seems to be that we still know next to nothing about how the brain and consciousness work; that there's lots of data but no unifying theory. I believe the extended TNGS is that theory. My motivation is to keep that theory in front of the public. And obviously, I consider it the route to a truly conscious machine, primary and higher-order.
My advice to people who want to create a conscious machine is to seriously ground themselves in the extended TNGS and the Darwin automata first, and proceed from there, by applying to Jeff Krichmar's lab at UC Irvine, possibly. Dr. Edelman's roadmap to a conscious machine is at arxiv.org/abs/2105.10461
Mine works great. I remembered right away not to watch this channel.
I like this idea, it means quantum particles patterns that our brain is composed of can never be replicated. Brain is not made from transistors or any kind of electronics, it's field interactions all the way down.
It's hard to visualize how fast light is on a sub atomic scale, if it can travel 360.000 km in one second, than a single beam of light can bounce trillions of times between neuronal synapses, in just a split of a second. And we have trillion brain cells, each emitting and bouncing their own light waves. A trillion times trillion makes a lot of signals.
When we say something happened in an instant, what we really mean is incredible amounts of information were traveling over neuronal paths, just being able to detect a slight anomaly. Interesting thing is, we get aware of anomaly much faster than we can comprehend what happened. It's like that synaptic blob extend outside our brain, connecting to outside reality directly. Makes sense, since our sensitive organs and skin are full of neuronal cells, growing from a brain.
Than there's that mental feedback, when synapses are telling conscious self how to interpret reality. This is where memories start to form, it's not just what we were thinking but also where we were learning about things and how did we feel in general at that present times. Therefore brain doesn't really remember anything, it became things that happened to it. Phenomena has more to do with how universe really is than what we think universe is, it's not a thing inside other things but a continuous flow of some kind. This is a very interesting physical phenomena, when we try to remember things or contemplate past events, we are actually alive and aware, but not mentally present in temporal real space. Our body is an object, but our mind exist in all internal past at once. I would dare to say this is a strong example universe is alive and self aware somehow, since we can see it's entire past.
@@Δενβρισκωνικ Would be fun to brake down and examine things further, but i can't do that right away, already wrote another complicated deductive reasoning and it should be enough for now. It's important to make a break or thought just flow as a water.
@@xspotbox4400 It was fun to scrutinize things more closely. It is important to know the ratio of gravity to the ratio of water to the ratio of life to the flow of water forming the water and life cycle.
AI is already beginning to replace our memory.
❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
Profound to think of what he said at 1:50, ¨memory is really not a concrete entity that is stored anywhere, it is just a likely hood that something is going to happen again in a way that is similar to the way it happened before.¨
ucla is easy you do not have to remember anything.
Memory is possible because entire history of the universe has a real structure. Strange how it sounds, universe remembers everything, like literally every single event that ever happened and this memory can never go away. Look at the night sky if you don't believe me, it's all still there, just as it really happened.
That is why some people think memory could be stored outside our brain, every single cell of our body radiate energy and this signals are stored in cosmic structure. It's not even a theory but a solid fact nobody can deny. But does physical reality means we can access cosmic memory with our conscious mind, this is another question. Partially we can and do this all the time, perception of outside reality is connection with cosmic memory, since we can't ever touch other things but only sense and emit influences from distant objects traveling to us over time. More over, this is how our new memories are formed, new events emerge from interactions with cosmic past. Therefore cosmic memory is interaction by definition, we also radiate influence into environment that became somebodies else's cosmic past, just by being a separate and autonomous entity, connected in a web of energy exchange.
Only our internal memory function independent from cosmic structure, our thoughts are still a part of cosmic flow, but there's also a self aware agent inside us who perceive his own past. 3 things are in play here, one is physical structure, other is unique perspective of our body and third is imaginary self, all three store and track their own memory lanes. There might be a forth system, perhaps body separate physical flow from neuronal coherent sense of a whole. And this biological being give rise to conscious self from own internal mechanics. Than we should make two distinctive composites, one type of memory is combination of universe and our material body, other kind of memory is constructedfrom neuronal activity and hallucinations. This gives us one convergence point, where memory of universe and memory of self must come together somehow, one real and other imaginary memory. One ever lasting and other just a temporal anomaly., like our minds are an independent memory buffer inside cosmic memory structure. Nobody is born with consciousness after all, our brains contain biological memories from a moment when we are born, but no self. This is why we can't remember anything before our ego was formed and we couldn't describe anything we remember if we wouldn't learn how to speak. This give us another distinction, symbolic memory is constructed from words and is not how we feel about ourselves.
I'd stagger if I could remember.
Stephen Braude would be an interesting person to interview on this topic.
There is not one cell anywhere in your brain that has ever had a single thought.
The more I remember, the more I forget.
Who I am is my memory. What I am is my memory. What I experienced is my memory. What I learnt is my memory. What I planed is my memory. What I predicted is my memory. How I felt is my memory. How far I can retrieve memory depends on how much concentration or repeat of Consciousness sensing was given to those. Now question is who is reading the retrieved memories to give a feeling of I know it. Answer is my MIND at conscious or subconscious state. Puzzle is what is dream and how I experience new or same dreams at subconscious or unconscious state.
I've often said that.
individual brain cell is capable of complex pattern recognition. Electrodes implanted deep in the brains of epileptic patients have detected single neurons dedicated to the recognition of a particular person in different situations and guises. A Clinton cell, for example, would respond not only to various photos of the former president but also to a line drawing.
Itzhak Fried UCLA research “thinking cells” in the brains neuroscientists may be forced to overhaul their view of how the human brain works.
He keeps mentioning synaptic weights but says nothing about micro-tubule quantum states.
How does memory and time tie in together? Without memory there is no concept of time
Time doesn't apply to memory, it's multidimensional construct, not a material thing. But this is precisely why phenomena is most interesting, how can anything violate time?
@@hyperduality2838 What if we both use same clock, does this mean you look at different clock than me or we both look at same clock at different moments?
Space is a box and time is measure of clock intervals.
Knowledge is state of hierarchical facts.
Idea is state of some facts.
Is memory stored in quantum dimensions?
Who’s asking?
Yes
My cat has an excellent memory. Remembers where the food is, where litter box is, where door is. Sometimes my cat forgets why the door is closed.
Just want you to know your cat stories are great. Write down more observations, than merge them all in one text. This is what a Schrodinger's cat really is, it became real object only after you perform many elaborations, all converging into an animal front of you. If cat will still be alive before you finish your experiment, that is, can't know that just by adding descriptions of what your cat was until than. I'm not saying you want to kill your cat like Schrodinger, but knowing your cat's past and properties will determine it's behavior and general condition. You interact because you know, cat react because it can remember, therefore observation of a cat will cause change in a cat just because some past events repeat more often than they would if you didn't remember what cat was. More over, you couldn't think about yourself while observing what your cat is doing and how it's like, those memories from your past are now linked with history of your cat. It would not be so if i wouldn't remind you about possibility of this experiment, but part of natural randomness is now ruined for all of us. Memories can have real and wide spread effects, problem is, memories doesn't exist in any solid, never changing form, but entire past of reality does.
@@xspotbox4400 , think I have too much time on my hands thinking about my cat. Lol
Bob the Bilder
brain cells do connect but that is not where memory is encoded in the brain. ask someone else this question which is where not how.
Computers hold information in their memory and they're not conscious.
@Martyr4JesusTheChrist RAM is significantly faster than a hard disk - twenty to a hundred times faster, depending on the specific hardware type and task. Because of its speed, RAM is used to process information immediately. When you want to accomplish a specific task, computer operating systems load data from the hard disk into RAM to process it, such as to sort a spreadsheet or to display it on screen. When it’s done actively “doing something,” the computer (sometimes at your instruction) saves it into long term storage.
Only in 1s & 0s. Whether and to what extent they are 'conscious' is a moot point.😁
where is memory-----not in the brain 50 seconds in. a single neuron is probed to get one movie star. there it is that page of this book.
He could have saved us all some time and said he didn't know.
memory is meat. It can’t be anything else. space and time is created by the brain to allow us to perceive a world. trying to define memory in space and time is like trying to support a roof structure from the roof structure while ignoring what is really providing the support. He’s running like Wile E Coyote!....eventually he will realise there is nothing under his feet and................. :)
Yeah I see where you going I saw this chip in pavement once and wondered if a god could reconstruct the truth
I don’t even need too, not against it (removes bias) I was referring to memory of an object tho... this also applies to scientific carbon dating, I just wanted a new way to say entropic breakdown can’t be tracked it’s actually called Maxwell’s demon. I like talking in abstract tho
Der Gorghast oh the Answer according to science is a resounding no, there is no emery can store the information
Information need memory, memory takes energy there is no free lunch