To everyone commenting on the size of the radiators I would just like to point out that from June 15th 2022 new Part L building regulations will require all full central heating installation including gas boilers to be low temperature of maxium flow of 55C What it means in practice is that even on gas boilers you will have to install radiators of considreably larger sizes and in older properties it simply means radiators of similar size as in this video for rooms with comparable heatloss. See below "A revised version of Approved Document L (Part L) of the Building Regulations has been published which will take effect from June 15th 2022. With this revision there are a number of changes to guidance and requirements covering both the new build and retrofit markets. With regards to existing dwellings the main points are: Complete New System Installations require: An appropriate heat loss calculation for the dwelling A system sizing methodology that takes account of the properties of the dwelling, such as the Chartered Institute of Plumbing and Heating Engineering’s Plumbing Engineering Services Design Guide The system should be designed to operate at a 55°C heating flow temperature"
So they’ve changed the regs to make the giant radiators of heat pump installs look normal. Space is at a premium in most older houses in the UK hence the popularity of combi boilers allowing removal of tanks to free up living space. In my opinion heat pumps have a place in new homes designed for them but as a retrofit too expensive and too room intensive, wait for better tech.
I think people are reading too much into the size of the rads. A modern new-build wouldn't need such large rads, and the ground floor would typically be UFH.
@@rsole65 I agree. It's all so farcical. Seems to me if you want to be green you better have deep pockets. To me, that is fundamentally wrong. I want to be green but I can't afford it. And that probably applies to most of us. Sadly, those like me and many others also, are slaves to oil and gas, and ironically we are the ones who can least afford it.
Here in the southern United States, we use forced air heat pumps very effectively. In the event of the extream cold, it is backed up by electric resistance heat. This back up heat is seldom needed but can also act as emergency heat if the compressor fails. With the very hot summers the ability to provide air conditioning makes this the most practical system for most southern states.
I am from Romania and I am a woman. Your video was helping me incredibly! So thank you In my country, heat pumps are at their beggining. But due to energy crisis, there is crazyness on the market. It is a jungle, actually. Huge lack of knowledge, few good specialists, and lot of abuses. Myself I started to learn a bit about heatpumps and installations after having a very painful experience with an insltaller claiming to be an expert. I found no other solution than to start learning myself, learning the heatpump installer manual like a bible and start testing really well the so call "experts" offering to reinstall correctly my pump. Was it enough? yes and no. But... your videos were solid milestones for me, on the road to learning from the best. Therefore I am sending you my entire gratitute. Love from Romania 💜🧡
Same over here in Germany. Since the beginning of the energy crisis so called "experts" took over the maket with their cash grab methods. Everyone, who did not do their research on heat pumps gets scammed most likely. But once it's done correctly, oh boy, get ready to safe some big €€€, I just got back 500 € from my electricity company because I predicted 3500 kWh and only used 2200 kWh.
Your a brave ♀️.. If nobody understand in your area, then find a hydraulic engineer, these machines are actually hot fluid pumps and need careful mathematical calculations and unrestricted flow, both are critical for SCOP of 3.5 or higher.. Good luck 😊
Looks like a very good installation. Well it wouldn’t surprise me if this installation cost £15,000-£20,000 probably slightly more. In my opinion I think this is way too much money for most families to go down this route.. personally before installing a air source heat pump I go down the route of installing insulation possibly new windows and also looking on how to improve the buildings fabric to decrease heat loss. From my experience as a heating engineer, heat pumps have a place but most the time badly installed and proper care and do diligence is not taken while surveying the job.. I personally would advise people to look into how to make the property more energy-efficient through wrapping it up then installing a heat pump on old properties. Now if you had a brand-new property that was 100% up to scratch building regs regarding insulation or possibly a passive house then a air source heat pump would be ideal specially if you have underfloor heating everywhere.. Personally I think spending £20,000 on improving windows, insulation etc is far more bang for your buck
Far more bang for your buck than what? Good insulation is a prerequisite of installing a heat pump based system anyway so it isn't a case of either or but after those improvements you suggest have been made. I think Simon covered it, alot of care should be taken over the system design and heat loss calcs to avoid dissappointment.
Replacing windows in the house especially if you’re going to go to the high U value triple glaze plus the proper airtight installation and hopefully water leak proof will cost just as much as a heat pump if not more. Air sealing is your biggest bang for the buck and the simplest and cheapest. The proper insulation on a new build or upgrading insulation should’ve been something that was tackled long ago in the first place before the heat pump installation. Then with those considerations out of the way and properly implemented you would need a smaller heat pump costing you less because you have already maximize your insulation and air sealing and prove it and document it by doing a whole house blower door test.
Right. They installed a wooping 17kW HP. Customer has a very big house or a very old house. Step 1. insulate the house to a modern 30w/m2 heat load (at worst conditions) Step 2. upgrade to properly calculated underfloor heating throught the house. Step 3. choose an easy to install yourself monoblock HP (4-6kW)= 4000 euro and a separate easy to install 100 liter HP boiler= 1000 euro.
Nice install. It's of the outmost importance to reduce the Average temprature of the water in the system. Every degree that the temprature is reduced is about 2,5% Efficiency. I have a Geothremal heat pump and my Maxium temprature is set at 28C. Noramlly the system runs at about 24-26C. Last year I had a COP of around 6.5, including warm water production. A lot of people on here are saying that the install is complicated and saying that doing the caluclations on the average heat loss per room is too much work when really they should be doing this work regardless of what system they're installing.
Payback time ? Radiator aesthetics? I've been designing central heating systems for 50+ years , those radiators in the music room may do the job , but they look horrible , my customers simply would not have them , and you haven't got enough wall space for horizontal ones, that's going to apply to every room , by the way , your pipework is excellent , regards Steve
Hey Simon, as usual absolutely stunning install. The work is a true master piece and I know you installed this to someone spec. However shame about the design and products that have been used here , the radiators are truly and shockingly ugly I would sooner have a poster of the elephantman on the wall. Cost for this was probably £25k if this is what the government is encouraging people to have ? We urgently need a new government !!!(I know of an estate that had these fitted and thus far winter cost £1500.00 per quarter , they have to be left on 24/7 .... this size probably £2000.00 per quatre...) And finally I hope who the person who sold this to the customer advised them that , after the install there's no going back to there gas boiler...cuz that will be the next thing this incompetent government will make law...people you have been warned ⚠️ Don't be fooled.......a master piece of workmanship Simon as always 😉
Just wondering could put it Out There... the Make and Model of Robust Circulation Pump you used to pump that seriously Hot water around the Circuit...as I'm sure many folks would have an Interest in that Pump....I have been told "Stuart Turner " Brass/ Bronze pumps do hold up well as Booster Pumps... But haven't had experience with their Circulation Pumps ...Great Upload...
My god. What on earth have your customers got to do for a living to afford this monstrosity of an install. Most of my customers are scraping together the money for a 2k combi swap. As always the standard of your work and knowledge is unquestionable, and I’m sure all of us heating engineers can appreciate seeing someone doing something perfectly to the book, but for millions of people in this country this technology is simply a financial non starter and will never be affordable or practical. As far as the changes to the building regs, I can tell you now that hardly anyone is gonna do it. Just like the ridiculous Erp sticker calculating fiasco, that’s largely now just ignored, or boiler plus which is often again just ignored for people on fixed incomes then every penny counts and new controls are often an expense they won’t go to. These giant 20k heat pump installs are just pie in the sky virtue signalling for the middle classes. I’m calling people this year, regular customers for a boiler service and being told by them they can’t afford it. Yet more regulations coming in to make installs even more expensive for people. I’ve got fifteen years in this industry left till I retire and I can’t wait.
All so true. I still enjoy the industry but there is no question that the push toward completely refitting houses regardless of if it's the best choice or not is just pushing people into needless debt.
@@ItsFriscoBaby no one is forcing anyone to install a heat pump. The opposite is happening, people are being encouraged to go that route with government grants.
@@UrbanPlumbers I didn't say they were being forced. What I sad was they are being pushed in a direction regardless of its suitability which is exactly what's happening.
It's always about the installation so finding the right people is, as always, super important. I mean the equipment is important but without the right installers, it's never going to work right. It's always about hiring the right people. Hire the right people and they'll make sure you get the right equipment. FWIW we got a new heat pump last fall and it's been AMAZING. Rising power prices and our monthly bills have dropped significantly. Love it.
I got one last summer and this winter it saved me $600 versus heating with propane. In 10 years it will have paid for itself so basically I got a new AC unit for no cost.
@@kamX-rz4uySame here. And the faster prices rise the faster it pays for itself and the rest of those savings go right into the bank. SADLY, the people that need something like this the MOST are the people that can afford it the LEAST. We need a way to get people living paycheck to paycheck the better tech that will reduce power needs. imho
I've watched Rogers videos and to be honest nothing he said is false. Heat pumps can be made work in every house but they are not the best solution for every household. Maybe the running costs he talks about are more down to bad installs rather than the system itself Those two huge radiators look ridiculous.
Honestly though, nobody is saying everyone has to get a ASHP right now. The government want to transition to it as long term gas is unsustainable and of course the people with the gas (i.e. russia) are not the best people to be dealing with. In the long term, the supplies of gas will get lower and lower and the price (inc carbon tax) will get higher and higher. This is future proofing your home in my eyes, though of course not financially viable for most. It only highlights the need for more government assistance on this. Though I think we can all agree that grants on proper insulation (or even instalment plans) are the way forward short term. Even gas fired homes will use less if they're properly insulated and will pay themselves off in the long term. People just cant afford the initial investment right now.
Excellent work, as always Szymon, but I think this video kind of makes Roger’s point. That install must’ve cost at least £20k, that prv pump alone was £700! And having to fit those massive radiators, including those TWO great ugly things in the lounge! Yes, you’ve shown that ASHP can work in old, solid walled houses, but the cost and impracticality/ugliness of the system will definitely put the large majority of home owners off, as would the running costs. It’s only the well off, virtue signaling “I’m doing my bit” crowd who would entertain that kind of thing.
Couldn't agree more. I watched this video and I'm just thinking, damn how much did that cost, damn how much does THAT cost, holy crap 2 of those massive things I've got 3 rooms that would need the same thing how much would that cost!! and where the hell do I put the giant tank! I'm gonna have a gas combi boiler until the day the gov bans them and my last installed combi before that can't be repaired anymore, after that I'll probably just get my shower replaced by an electric one and freeze in the winter I guess lol
@@lewbaker a couple decades from now using gas will cost so much that you will happily spend the extra on doing things electrically. I would not be surprised if direct electric heating would turn out to be cheaper than gas, at this rate.
As i and my company already installed over 1500 running mashines over the course of the last 23 years i can say: They work, you just need to know what youre doing. But our system run at 35°C in and 28°C out temperatures so you need an under floor heating system or special radiatiors with fan support. with these radiators you dont need to plaster your living room wall with radiators. holy moly ... my customers would look at me and would ask if i have undiscovered psychological problems or something for even suggesting that.
*LITERALLY THE HOTTEST HOUSE* I have ever been in was in the UK in winter with a heat pump system. I was fixing some kitchen cabinets for a neighbour and honestly, I could not breathe, it was 32ºC, I think the woman must have had a medical condition - YES this was a new build and it was installed from new with the house. But anyone that says they don't work is talking BS. Maybe badly installed or cheap systems don't work. But that's NOT to say heat pumps don't work.
@@piccalillipit9211 if it was her or his wish ... halleluja ... our under floor heating is self regulating thru the first law of thermodynamics. As soon as the airtemp. Inside the house reaches the surface temp of the ground at around 23-24 °C, as ex. Thru the sun, Our system shuts itself off ... physicaly ... But if you wanna have a sauna we can make it one yes.
@@locomotive1213 - I only know it was a heat pump cos I asked why it was SO damn hot and she proudly told me it was a heat pump system - as if that in itself explained it. She showed me the equipment room where there were two MASSIVE tanks of water that were the heat reservoirs. They supplemented the ground source heating in the winter with heat extracted in the summer. I don't think a normal person would need these as a normal person does not live at literally tropical temperatures. I don't know anything about heat pump systems, but I know for sure the idea they dont work as a technology is rubbish. Maybe this system cost £50k - I dont know, but it sure as heck worked and at £3,000 a year for gas as many in the UK are now paying it does not look THAT expensive at £50k, especially on a new build.
@@piccalillipit9211 ah well ... i come from germany so i dont know the relation to the costs of other heating systems in GB... i just know you guys earn much more than we do. when i was in school, every teacher told us we get 3 times the money in GB. Our one family home system costs around 15.000€ for the heatpump system . gas heater systems as example are around 8.000-10.000€ but since the psycho german goverment forces us to use a specific amount of "renewable energy" when homes are newly build you have to install a solar or PV system in addition to that, so the total prices ends up way over 15.000€.
@@locomotive1213 - OH I dont know - I have not lived in the UK for a long time, but the wages seem pretty crappy to me over there now. I was a salesperson in 2002 on £65k a year and not the average is £32k in 2022... But they keep voting for a "conservative" government and they keep getting poorer - what can you do??? I pulled the figure £50k out of think air purely based on the fact it was a large £1 million pluss house NOT a normal house for normal people. Personally, I think €15k for a heating system is an appropriate amount of money if you get 25 years of life out of it and it is affordable to run. We are obsessed with everything being cheap cos we live in a disposable society. I make bespoke historical men's clothing. In 1930 a Singer sewing machine was nearly a year's wages. Today you can buy one new for €50 - but it will be in the landfill in 3 months. Professionals like me either buy the 1930's Singer or we spend €5,000 on a professional modern machine cos NOTHING domestic-made today will do the job... The point of my tangent is we have been trained to think of EVERYTHING as disposable - so people have a heart attack at the thought of a €15k heating system. Its €1.66 a day if it lasts 25 years... Oddly the same people will spend €50k on a car without batting an eyelid...
The only downside to heat pumps is where I am theres a lot of stone walled buildings with awful insulation. The Emmitters need to be massive in them and it's just not practical. Thats no fault of the Heat Pump though
I know I will probably get a lot of negative feedback but watching this video reminds me are we looking for the right solutions. An example: a person works 100 kilometers round trip from home and he sells his car and get another vehicle that is 25% percent better on milage. An improvement that could be resolve by moving 25% or more closer to work. In this video I saw no evidence of increased thermal performance of the building envelope and all homes have the possibility of super insulation and air sealing resulting in dramatic reduction in required thermal load. A small heat pump definitely has uses such as domestic hot water supply, but the requirement of a 17 kw heat pump to alleviate but not fix a poorly insulated home is just the thing that makes the world and society in general still not looking for smart, efficient, long term, low life cycle costs that need to be mandated and installed in both current and new housing standards. A group of us where talking about the weather in summer at the current time because it was quite hot and one fellow said that he had just spent 28000.00 canadian dollars for a ground source geothermal system. When I said that if he had spent half that money on insulation he probably wouldn't need much of a heating and cooling system. His face turned white when he realized what I had said.
Great video. The installation highlights the serious issues we face with old UK housing stock. Heat loss is the enemy in winter. In summer it’s going to be cooling. I think we have to seriously invest in super insulation before we install heat pumps. Most “ ordinary “ households won’t have the funds for these high end systems. I’ve invested in second hand woolly jumpers. Heat the person not the space perhaps?
When we stop the drafts ventilating our old homes, we are going to need to get the vapour barriers right to avoid rotting them out from the inside by trapping moisture.
Couldn’t agree more. The future (well the near future) is a thermostat at 18 degrees and a blanket! Also turning condensing boilers down to 60 degrees. Small changes like this will have an immediate effect and whilst heat pumps and renewable energy are the future... we have a long way to go in the meantime. The government should be investing in insulation and nuclear power rather than giving grants to heat pumps companies
@@lewisjones5067 Having to sit with a blanket and gloves on in your lounge is more 18th than 21st century. You’re right about the nuclear power though.
Complete nightmare. Avoid at all costs for as long as possible, until the government force you to have these wretched useless things installed. Hopefully by then there will be such an uproar that they'll abandon this stupid idea.
Too late, this retard we have Mark drakeford of Wales once heat pumps installed everywhere by 2030, it will be interesting to see how these tower blocks of flats are going to look, we're going backwards now you need another place for your storage cylinder, we took these out to replace with combi boiler, and we also had an immersion heater, also once this comes into force and you don't comply by having heat pump, you won't be able to sell buy or remortgage your property, the property would have to be certified with a heat pump and this is in the manifesto, these things don't work they are very noisy insufficient and the running costs are phenomenal, controversy to popular belief anybody can go and buy a boiler and fit themselves, these things would have to be fitted by a registered company at a cost of in excess of 15 Grand,
One of my customers was paying less than a grand a year for electric and about 1200 a year for oil. At the end of 2020 he binned the oil for a heat pump, his electric bill for the last year was over 5 grand, with the recent price rise and assuming that there are no further increases this year he'll be looking at around 7 to 8 thousand pounds, that's £160.00 per week and the place is freezing on cold days.
Depends on the location. I deleted oil burner, because it costs $300/MWh. Natural gas after war in ukraine $130/MWh. Wooden pellets/firewood $60/MWh. Soil not compatible with ground source heat pump. Electricty about $170/MWh. Gas and oil expected to go even higher. Air source heat pump is the only option which will cost the same as firewood but without hassle and smoke.
@@edfx don't be ridiculous, you're forgetting one thing, the installation of this piece of shite, in excess of about 20 grand, we fitted about 25 of these units last year, then you got the maintenance on them, the people that ring us to say they very noisy, they are huge and unsightly, not everybody has an extra room in their house or a basement and certainly don't have room in the garden, you'll be dead before you see any profit, they are an absolute joke here in the UK.
@@1971dave looked it up. kerosene about $130/MWh, electricity $300/MWh. Yeah, looks like investment that would cost you more and more as the time goes by.
10:00 You've got to be kidding me!! They're awful. To help us out with the debate can you give us some figures please? What was the total cost of the install? Edit: I saw 20k on another comment. What CoP are they achieving? Pre & post gas/elec kWh? Really need some real world numbers for this.
I'll be honest watching this is like watching a master artist paint a masterpiece: everything is perfect! I wish I could count on every installer to know how little forgiveness there is on this style of installation!
In Australia we just use air based split system heating. It's quick to install and seems a lot easier than the amount of pipe work done here. I have a bunch of Aircon units in my house in all the bedrooms 2.5kw and lounge rooms kitchen etc 7kw and they all function as heaters and air cons. If one breaks all the others keep working. This solution seems overengineered and probably prone to failure as well as probably many many times more expensive. On the other hand looks like nice work 😂
Yes, installing an air to liquid heat pump is just silly. You will have to be a plumber to get that to make sense. Air-air units are easy to install, a lot cheaper and they will make a big difference. Half of Norway has them to heat the house during winter, and some years it will get hot enough in summer to use it as air con for maybe two days.
@@quadcopter Air-to-anything is fine for warm countries like Australia or Norway - well, probably excluding Svalbard. But it the temp regularly drops below -20C, the only way to go (apart from burning fossil) is geothermal.
Yes when it gets extremely cold then heat pumps become less useful although if Norway is using them they are probably fine for most of the world especially if you have some old type electrical fan ones for the days it does get crazy cold. I also opted for lots of split systems instead of one connected large unit so if one breaks all the others still work. I'm in a hot climate so mine are used 90 percent for cooling. I've never seen these water based ones before and I'd expect the cost would be insane. We do have hot water system based ones in Australia that utilise heat pumps although not many people have them because they are quite expensive and from what I've heard more prone to failure than the simple kettle style ones which are cheap although cost a lot more In electricity.if you know the channel technology connections he has recently done a few good episodes on heat pumps, apparently they are very uncommon in the USA which surprised me as they have heat pump air conditioners but don't bother making them reverse cycle. In Australia they can pretty much all do both heat and cooling.
Yeah I can just buy a mini split unit for around 1500, install it my self and keep gas for hot water and emergency heat. And you get Aircon in the summer as a bonus
@@jmi5969 I really don't know anything about this subject, but I have never seen ANYONE say "a warm country like Norway" before. Are you sure you meant Norway?
Roger point is that running cost of heat pump is more than Gas Boiler which is true. Because most people run their Heat pump below COP(Coefficient of performance) of 3. COP of Heat Pump should be above 3 if they are going to replace gas boilers and reduce utility bills. Achieving COP greater than 3 is very difficult if you are using Radiator with heat pump. COP depends on Temperature difference between supply water temperature and the outside Temperature. Heat pump are effective when the supply water is around 35ºC -40 ºC range , even outside temperature falls below -15 ºC. At this temperature range COP will always stay above 3. The solution is to use underfloor heating even for first floor to get the best out of Heat Pumps. Under floor heating can provide effective heating even when supply water is around 30ºC provided it is designed by professional. Those massive radiators take space specially in a Music room and look ugly and will struggle to heat the place up when outside temperature falls below -10ºC.
Having worked with heat pumps since 2005, here are some reasons they don't work; Insufficient radiator surface area. Since heat pumps cannot supply 80 degrees C like an oil or gas burner can, you need larger radiators. If you replace a burner of some sort and if the chimney runs through the house that heat is lost. Need to be accounted for. There is a lot of cheap junk on the market. Don't buy it. A heat pump is not a heat pump. Improper commissioning. Care must be taken to adjust flows and temperatures correctly.
If you run your radiator at 80C, you have very bad efficiency even with a gas boiler, since condensing boilers operates more efficiently at lower temperatures. To increase the surface area you can simply install fan coils, in reality heat pumps make sense with underfloor heating, fancoils and forced mechanical ventilation with heat recovery. Also using radiators or only underfloor heating with heat pumps is stupid since you can only use it in heating mode, you can't use it for air conditioning at all.
So they cost a fortune to install, generate relatively little heat, need highly skilled fitters (good luck in UK) and need more pipework than a power station. But, hey, they "work".
I'd be highly doubtful they actually have significant carbon reductions given the carbon emissions associated with actually manufacturing everything required and installing it and then probably having a shorter life span than a gas boiler.
@@zoidberg444 I beginning to suspect it’s more about reducing actual energy usage than any carbon reducing measures (as good chunk of electricity is gas generated anyway and that is not changing anytime soon)
@@jasonaris5316 I have replaced my gas heater system with a heat pump and my annual kWh usage has halved. The current increases in gas prices mean that my annual gas bill has gone up by £8 per year as I only use it for a gas hob now. My electricity bill is going up but only about 20% compared to the horror stories about the increase cost for gas fuelled heating systems. I went for a heat pump as I did not have radiators installed and the cost and disruption associated with fitting a radiator system was something I wanted to avoid. I have an air to air system that supplies ducted air around the house and can be used to heat, dry and cool the air.
@@martinconnelly1473 we are not allowed air to air systems here in the U.K. (as they don’t want additional air con being run in the summer) it’s all about energy use reduction
The thought of replacing my furnace for $5000🍁 had me cringing already, but watching this gave me heart palpitations at what the cost would be for this system.
I’ve an ASHP. Water heated to 35 deg into our underfloor heating. Hot water for DHW set at 45 cause that’s what we like shower at. Total electricity cost for year (space heating, water heating , light, appliances etc) €1500. Far cheaper than our old house with oil. Insulation is key. No point fitting these systems to old houses that aren’t sufficiently insulated
lucky you, our electric costs are more like £5,000 for the year, with this very Heat pump installed into a new build house all callcs done for the RHI grant. very efficient and cheap in the summer months but seems very expensive in the winter, maybe more efficient compared to gas but with gas being cheaper per KWH than electric makes it a very expensive way of heating our house.
I’ve been attracted to this idea but it is too complex, regardless of system design. Even OP had to correct himself with return this and that, valve this and that. I bet it does work well but it still has an immersion heater. And these guys are experts. I’m not going to be an early adopter. I’m leaning to the Roger view for the time being. ROI doesn’t seem to be reasonable.
Heat pumps are designed to capture the additional air temperature from outside… great during the summer months if you have a pool. Expensive during the winter months (when you need it most) unless you have a solar or economy 7 solution in place. ThermalPV & localised phase change storage is a much better solution for most domestic properties… & cheaper!
@@PKWeaver74 no you’re not right. Cutting down on energy usage helps the planet. My focus is on making my house more energy efficient. New windows, additional insulation, having everything serviced regularly, just a few initiatives. I’m even considering panels as we have a south facing roof. But something that costs too much and still needs old tech to ensure hot water is not something that I’m going to adopt until the tech improves. I hope I haven’t pulled the rug on your smart arrested comment but hey, some of us think in more than sound bites😅
@@iangelling No, you haven't. I'm in the same boat as you, doing exactly the same thing but we still need pioneers who can afford to be the early adopters on principle, then economies of scale can reduce prices. I'm not opposed to what you said, just throwing one of my sound bite thoughts out there to agitate for a response 😉
Here in Arizona heat pumps are all we have; up until this year, I didn't realize there was such thing as a regular A/C system that can't also produce heat. Crazy world out there
Great video as usual mate. Fantastic neat work. I’m not 100percent sold on these systems yet. The ashp unit is not a nice sight in the garden and those radiators are so big they stick out like a sore thumb. Iv got a 4yr old gas boiler with average sized rads in every room. Iv turned the temp on boiler down to 58 degrees and the house still warms up to a comfortable temperature.(insulation in my house isn’t great either) I think roger has valid arguments. Fan of you both 👍🏻
the boiler might last for 50+ years, at that. or, a good 20 years anyway. these heat pumps are so complicated with digital controllers and fragile parts, compressors, capacitors, refrigerant leaks, they are prone to having problems, they're outdoors, and they only last half as long. they're a little bit less expensive than a boiler to operate, because they only use a relatively small amount of electricity, but that's their only real advantage.
Great video. We had a GSHP installed in our 1960's house about 15 years ago. We have over sized radiators but not as scientifically sized as your install. A lot of plumbing yes, it was 5K of work back then, about the same cost as the heat pump itself. We probably went about it the wrong way in that we improved house insulation after the install. We do supplement ours with a wood burner in the lounge in the winter, but otherwise very happy. I can't honestly say its any cheaper to run than other options (we have no mains gas in our village), but the complete lack of maintenance and not having to worry about oil top-ups is a real benefit.
Upgrading the fabric first should save money on the heat pump installation, but in simple decarbonisation terms the heat pump can be done a lot more quickly (and more cheaply) than the fabric improvements, so even though it's a bit inefficient there is an increasingly good case for just whacking in the heatpump first, then fixing the rest as finance allows, for the vast majority of people who can;t afford to do the whole damn thing in one blitz. Although mortgage-financing for retrofit may change that.
The fact you have to STILL suppliment it during winter kinda proves it has FAILED and WASN'T "worth it". The whole point of these systems is you shouldn't NEED to suppliment them at all with ANYTHING else - especially not a wood burner lol. Or at least that's what they make you believe with the adverts and publicity they get constantly - "it can make heat even in the winter and cool/heat during the summer".
Roger all the way. I feel sorry for the customers you’ve got to remember that’s there house not an industrial unit ugly radiators and ugly ashp. Once the demand for electricity goes up the so will the price with electric cars and so on. It’s easy to lower your bills just buy a jumper and turn your heating down a bit and save the planet and money. Not rocket science.
@@lapisredux I know lol its like when the news says people are choosing between heating and eating and I'm like really lol? Are they? If you don't eat you die don't you?
@@mensor Foolish sound bite remark. CH was almost unknown in the 60s and 70s - why is it the go-to thing now? Consider - who benefits from the colossal cost of this system?
If they had spent this money on as many solar panels as they could get on their roof, and 30kw/h of batteries, they would have a much better system. The insane amount of pipework and labour involved in this is just ridiculous.
They did. Solar panels and batteries were already in place before the heat pump installation. The system pay back with current energy prices is surprisingly short and saving quite substantial At the time we did not know what the energy market would do!
@@coooooool12342 what's the payback on a new 20K kitchen? Or a new 20K car? Although this should be cheaper to run than gas and the system should last twice the time of an average gas boiler, it is not done for the payback. This technology saves energy as it uses up to 80% less energy than a gas boiler or direct electric heating and creates much less pollution. Your payback is cleaner air and less CO2 plus some money saved on bills. Obviously, there is a lot of badly installed air source (as there is loads of badly installed boilers) - on heat pumps problems are more pronounced and obvious though.
Szymon, your videos are second to none. You always take time to break things down clearly, what your opinions are and most importantly why. I think your channel is really underrated, and you still manage to find time for a good sense of humour. Thanks.
I'm confused. Does this heat pump perform the entire refrigerant cycle outdoors, and transport heat in/out of the house using heated/chilled water? Because that's what it sounds like you're describing. Radiators are a terribly outdated way to change the temperature of a room; there's minimal air circulation, no air filtration at all, and a bunch of heat lost warming the surfaces near the radiators when what you _need_ to warm is the _air in the room._
Correct, in the UK we have a lot of buildings that are plumbed for wet systems, so its considerably easier, and generally more acceptable to customers to convert these systems. Of course you could install a mini-split in very room but for the average British person they'd be what the hell is that thing on the wall. I'd like to see more systems using fan assisted radiators - but they are a bit of a maintenance hassle, filters need cleaning out regularly.
I'm Dutch and the default for a long time was to have heating only. Provided by heated water systems with radiators. No cooling in the house. But the radiators are placed so that natural convection takes place, most of the time under windows so to also 'shield' from cold air flows. As you can deduct by now, it's all setup for a cold climate. However, with time things did change. Central heating is still very common. But a lot of homes have floor heating now for comfort reasons. (Almost all homes arr multi floor with floor heating only on the main floor) This setup is easy to convert to a hybrid system with low temperature floor heating, and 'nornal' heating on other floors and to use for hot tap water. And a lot of homes do have split airco units now for more comfort during summer time, but those outside units provide noise pollution so they aren't that liked that much. Another thing is that building regulations dictate a minimum of fresh air that needs to come from the outside. This is a massive heat leak and also a major source of discomfort for many homes. The old central heating system with radiators under the window did solve this (house is pressured down by a central air ventilation system, the windows have inlets for incoming fresh air flow) But with time this got a large overhaul in newly build houses with heat exchangers and no inlets on windows anymore, combined with better house isolation in general. But this reduced the inhouse air quality too much. New solutions that solve these problems properly while being green and such aren't that wide spread. Because these need separate inflow and outflow ducts for air and our building styles don't allow for easy retrofitting. A good heating and cooling system with good ventilation is just hard to fit in a home. And retrofitting is even harder.
A follow up video in a years time would be interesting to see how the home owner rates the new system with the old one. I'll keep an eye out for it. Let's hope it airs regardless of the outcome!
Heat pumps work PERFECTLY fine. I installed an air source heat pump in my home last year and it works perfect! European countries who import Russian gas are feeling the pain and horror of buying Russian-fascist fuel that aids in killing innocent people. And gas is a huge contributor to climate change so we need to install as many heats pumps as possible, and solar on EVERY roof top in existence.
@@UrbanPlumbers If you accept that heat pumps work, what's with the clickbait dishonest title? Heatpumps are just reverseable air con units. Simple thermodynamics with proven engineering. Suggesting they don't work in the title is a lie.
Plus 2000w wind turbines if you live in any sort of windy area.. Our property in Scotland has added wind and OMG it works through the night and basically we use nearly NO grid electricty
I can run as many baths as I want with my combi-boiler and rapidly heat the House in between. Once you have drained your hot water tank your immersion heater kicks in at extortionate rates. I am only interested in my running costs. Heat pump costs are roughly 1/3 of pure electric systems but gas is about a 1/4, so no matter all the calculations about efficiency, gas is still the cheapest.
If you're only interested in running costs, then a properly installed heat pump will be able to run 1/4-1/5 of electric heating. And the average gas boiler in the UK runs at around 82%. So you need to add about 20% onto the gas price to get the same amount of heat. So gas isn't always the cheapest. It's also clear from your first sentence that you aren't that interested in running costs, and are more interested in convenience. As rapid heating will cost more. For many heat pump owners, the immersion is turned off, and can still boost just fine.
@@BenIsInSweden You are quite right that convenience is important to me as well as cost. One argument used is that the immersion heater will only kick in relatively infrequently. This assumes you don’t draw much hot water. Being a single household I probably use less hot water than most and I draw hot water about ten times a day. This means an immersion heater will be kicking in often as the cold water brings the temperature in the tank down. I have been reading also that here in the UK they are changing the rules to artificially distort the so-called advantages of heat pumps by, in one proposal, restricting gas boilers to an operating temperature of 55°C with the knock on effect that will have on radiator size and insulation etc.I don’t know about electricity prices in Sweden but they are very high here. Our government is also proposing to euphemistically “rebalance” the energy market ie by putting up gas prices . All of this just shows they don’t believe their own arguments and have to resort to dirty tricks to force people to accept heat pumps.
@@johncrosley1 That's not how hot water cylinders work. There's a hysteresis, and often a cylinder has a temperature probe about a 3rd of the way up - some have more than one. e.g. for mine, once the probe reads a temperature below 10C of the set temperature, it will call for heat from the heat pump. The only time the immersion will kick in will be under the following situations: - The immersion is enabled, and the boost button has been pressed on the control panel. - As mine is R32, if any temperature above 55C is requested (e.g. an anti-legionella cycle). which will throw an error if the immersion is disabled. In R290 ones, they can do 75C without immersion, so more than enough for ALC without immersion. - As mine is split with air to air, if it is set to heating priority (default is mixed, but hot water priority is an option), then as the heat pump is busy with heating it will use the immersion (if enabled). Building regs have been changed over the years in the UK to improve home standards, and it's not really about trying to make heat pumps more favourable, but homes more energy efficient. A flow temperature of 55C on a gas boiler uses a lot less gas than 75C. The issue with the UK is it has one of the highest spark gaps in Europe because of the pre-existing policies. About 1:4 as you say. The European average is about 1:3. Sweden has one of the lowest, at around 1:1.2, so gas heating never really makes any sense over even immersion. A rebalance is also well overdue, a lot of the policies were done when coal was a primary provider of electricity, so gas was far more favourable for heating. The problem comes because so many people rely on gas for heating, with how to do it without causing fuel poverty.
The problem is as you said, electrical system needs upgrading, pipework needs upgrading, new radiators, installers need to be very competent because if any small bit isn't done correctly it won't work, it's expensive, it needs monitoring regularly, a low paid worker in an ex council flat in liverpool just cant afford this.
there's no way this system will fit in my new build house not to mention 35% of my patio will be gone and then i would need to protect this pump from my son kicking a ball
Brilliant video 👌 I've almost completed the awakening course on Heat Geek and its unbelievable what you learn. It was watching Andrew Millward and yourself that made me go for it and I'm so glad I did. The bar is definitely being raised with knowledge and installs like this which is great for the industry. Keep up the good work 🙌
Hey. I love your vids, but you didn't address the elephant in the room. How much did the customer pay for 28mm pipes and all of the oversized rads? To heat the same house, whats the cost for heatpump vs condensed boiler?
We have had our air source for 3 years now. Our oil fed boiler died. Cost me a fortune with solar panels and massive. REALLY MASSIVE radiators which I love. My house is lovely and warm now. I even enjoy getting money back every quarter. I may even break even eventually. But for now the family is warm. We were freezing using oil.
Great video !! Hope our insulation and Bond & Seal helped. Its our Primary Pro insulation which we have started to manufacture as ASHP Installers were using our Condensate Pro to protect their waste pipe from the HP to the drain. They asked us to make the same for the 28mm distribution pipework, so we just launched Primary Pro insulation. Making sure all the joints are sealed is an important part of the installation/efficiency. Our focus was to make the products UV & weatherproof out of the box, easy to fit in all weathers, look quality, and be simple to look after throughout the life of the HP /system. Videos like this are vital to get the message out that heat pumps work, and the common sense approach is needed to help end-customers understand what is needed. Heat loss calculations, survey. Good advice from the start. Quality specification/costing, so the end-customer understands. Installation with nothing missed or made cheap, that will affect the efficiency and life of the system . Commissioning to fine-tune every post . Hand over/customer understanding. Last but not least, annual services of the system to assure the very best efficiency. Keep up the good work and videos, and I hope more and more will do the same to show heat pumps will 100% play a part in fossil fuel reduction and quality energy efficiency.
Thanks, excellent video, I am a Chemical engineer and well used to piping,pumping,controls,heat transfer etc, but this is a very complicated install, well done. However no way in my house, not enough room left, already loads of room taken up by solar controls and home battery, and the radiators are huge. New builds are going to have to plan for a plant room for all the energy saving equipment.
this install is actually much simpler than a typical gas boiler S or Y plan and takes the same amount of space internally. We just got used to the combi boiler that fits in a kitchen cupbarod. The mighty hot water cylinder is coming back.
@@UrbanPlumbers You must be kidding! It looks like it has been designed by NASA to launch rockets! And it must cost thousands, instead of a maximum of £2k to replace a boiler. Also you can hear the fans already on the recording, and the radiators are the ugliest things I have ever seen!
im so confused. im used to refrigerant straight to fan coil units. ive never seen refrigerant to water to radiators. does the heat pump boil the water or is it just hot water???
Why not to install air-to-air heat pumps? Much smaller indoor units than those giant radiators. Less expensive and more efficient. Yes, this leaves you with some noise from indoor units, you still don't have hot water. But probably even immersion heater low efficiency will be balanced by higher efficiency home heating. Or maybe smaller heat pump just for hot water? What are your thoughts?
Another option is a high temp heat pump, that can get the water to a much higher temperature. Those work with existing heating installations... but they are pricey, and more expensive to run. Personally I have good hopes for replacing natural gas with green hydrogen. They're doing experiments with this in a neighborhood in the north of the Netherlands, using the existing gas network to distribute hydrogen instead. Household heaters and gas ranges can be adapted to run on hydrogen without issues.
This reminds me of living in a Steam Punk world, it's completely unfeasible for anyone on less than 3 digit salaries plus where would all the pipework,pumps,valves,air unit, storage tanks, thermostats and massive radiators go? I'm a Marine engineer and there's just no way I'm turning my house into a boiler room. Thanks but I'll stick to burning tyres on my coal fire!😁
Remember the movie Brazil? Central Services have nothing on this guy... I've no idea either how most people will afford this. The promise (here in NL) is that we'll be able to get special loans or mortgages to greenify our homes, and that the cost of those loans are easily offset by the savings on the heating bill. But that €10k outdoor unit will have to be replaced in 10 years...
@@kaasmeester5903 Exactly! I can't believe the amount of ancillary equipment you need for one of these heat pumps. No wonder they're ruinously expensive.
Nice job but.... Not many people would have the kind of money to install a system like that and you had the benefit of a cellar to get most of the installation in and there's a lot of pipework involved and a lot of houses don't have cellars... ! Also not many folk would want radiators the size of icebergs hanging off the walls in their homes and it's always difficult to explain to people why there radiators are only getting Luke warm when they are used to having them boiling hot almost.... ! I think the best route to take would be insulating the house by fitting new windows and doors and insulating under floors and roof space etc and if done correctly will be a good investment , I believe the heat pump market will be very small for a long long time due to lots off different reasons some of which I've stated above and the more easier and most economical way ahead will be the Hydrogen boiler which I believe will be the way ahead in the future but it to has its faults and gremlins that will need to be ironed out before it becomes the next go to product for heating our homes... Keep up the good work Simon and I'm looking forward to your next one 👍
Have you got recordings of the external unit turning on and off? That’s when the aircon near my window makes the most annoying noises, not when in continuous operation. Also, have you got recordings of multiple units turning on and off after multiple years of operation?
Would be good to see & hear different models in action ... visitors centres etc ? it has to vary between make & model , & newer models not old enough . . Seems to me even a low db noise can be annoying, but might not hear it if double glassing etc.
I am in America and I am an HVAC guy with a lot of knowledge in Heat Pumps and Solar Thermal heating. I have designed , installed and fixed many systems. I have been able to integrate Solar Thermal into Hydronic and Heat pump systems. They work out very well and are a good match. In the Midwest to Northern parts of America we cannot get by with just the Heat pump system because our Winter loads are twice the capacity of our summer loads. We use Heat pumps but have to size the backup heat as large or larger than the Heat pump output by itself. My Solar scheme and design has worked very well but engineers fight me on it because they just cannot wrap their head around the larger picture. It works.
Excellent install and attention to detail but isn’t the essence of the problem that yes you can heat your house electrically with a heat pump but even in the current climate electricity (per kw) is still 3x the cost of gas?
@@Etacovda63 Thanks. So £20k to install to cost the same to run as a combi? What am I missing here? I read a couple of scientific papers on ASHPs and GSHPs that said with the exception of CO2, for full life cycle, they're worse for the environment than Gas.
The scale and complexity of these systems renders Johnson’s aims essentially unacceptable nonsense. If as much effort had been put into properly insulating houses the CO2 produced by heating would have been a massively reduced. Let’s not forget that the electric to power heat pumps depends on gas for up to 60% (no matter how many wind turbines and solar panels you have no wind and no,sunlight means no power) so the trade-off is less clear cut. Also, there is a massive energy cost in the production of heat pumps and associated paraphernalia. Much of it will come from China so coal fired power. If to achieve “net zero” you front load with even more CO2 you negate the aim of CO2 reduction. The strong message: go back to the drawing board and stop this lunacy before it gets even more out of control.
@@user-kc1tf7zm3b Au contraire. I know my subject very well. I have a background in energy both by degree and professionally. I totally agree that fossil fuels are (and should) be on the way out. My point is that current policy is utterly nuts and counterproductive hence my comment on China. Check out China’s coal consumption vs the rest of the world.
@@Rossi593 Bloody hell! What do you damn well expect from the country with the world’s largest population of 1.4 billion? The United States does not even have half a billion, at only 330 million. However, the US has emitted _most_ of the world’s CO2 emissions at 399 billion tonnes (25%) over the centuries, which is double China’s cumulative total of 200 billion tonnes (12.7%). China and India are certainly entitled to their own economic development and prosperity just like the United States. My ethnic Indian law studies teacher made a point of this years ago when I was in high school. A little intellectual consistency would go a long way, Mr Ross. Lest you come off as an out and out hypocrite. Be more British and balanced in your outlook. 🇬🇧
Really complete explanation..but...real numbers are always avoided so can I ask....Watts input to unit (fans compressor etc) equivilent electrical watts output to equal the output of the unit, that is output over input times 100 to give efficiency ans lets forget the 400% advetised figures
A 5 ton/17 kW system seems pretty large for the size of the home. We have a total of 8 tons (forced air system) for 4,600 square feet above grade and a 2,800 square foot basement. I'm in Maryland USA and we see yearly temperatures between -18C/0F and 38C/100F. Average around 60% humidity, but can get much higher in summer.
I use a 8kW Daikin for 300 Square meters in the middle of Europe and its perfectly enough for us. Maybe this winter we have to help it with our old wood heater. We'll see.
@@alperenalperen2458 Middle European, currently very wet and about 10 Celsius, no isolation 39 centimeters of brick all around. Free standing in a North-South Valley. We have the most sunshine in the whole country. But its only moderate warm and cold throughout the year. No special roof insulation. 19-20 degrees in all rooms with old radiators from the 1980s. And warm water for 3 persons. Of course the heatpump has to work. About 18.000kWh a year. In gas that would be 45.000kWh. And in wood + solar heater it was about 60.000kWh because of a very old inefficient wood boiler. Of course wood would still be the cheapest form of energy but it also takes much work.
Yes he only just understand s his own system but not fully ! I bet he doesn't even Label the system they never work and rely on immersion heater or gas water heater backup .
What the gov will do is stop the spares for our combis, so within 10 years you have to buy heat pumps. The same with electric cars forced into buying them it's a form of communist gov.
Have you noticed the gov implement laws that nobody wants, like Boris concreting over shale gas then digging it up. Same with oil shut down the rigs oooppps open them up again.
@@UrbanPlumbers Can't do much else with a wall covered in radiator. Can't put a shelf there, a cupboard a picture, wouldn't necessarily even want to put a chair in front of it. Probably fine for people with giant mansions but for the average, tiny UK home it's ridiculous. I'd like to see a domestic install of a High Temp Heat Pump (yes I know they are not as efficient but still more so than a simple immersion heater).
@@SardiPax many years ago when I was an adobe builder in New Mexico I built large vertical radiators into the walls of some homes to give out heat to spaces both sides of the wall. Built in rather than hung on is a possible solution. This is where joined up thinking between home designers, home builders and specialised trades ought to come together. I first saw the heat both sides concept used in Quarry Hill flats in Leeds. They were built in the 1930's. They also had a waste disposal system that carried organic waste from the sink to a large communal boiler to be burnt to heat water. In eastern Europe power Stations don't have cooling towers they send the hot water to heat apartments and other buildings or to aid industrial processes. A lot of good ideas lost to make individual houses more profitable for the builder.
Sadly I think Roger has an axe to grind with heat pumps and I don't know why. Poor install by companies who just want sales have a lot to answer for sadly and the industry I think needs tighter regulation to make sure installers are fully informed, full calculations are done before install and the customer is aware that it won't be effective if they don't have the whole system optimised.
I think Roger has a point, of sorts. He’s never said heat pumps never work, but how much would that install have cost? And how ugly are those TWO massive radiators in that lounge? And how much will the energy bills be?
@@SisterAbdullahX I estimated that install at £18k Inc VAT, UP said closer to £20k so yeah, it's a huge undertaking which many people can't afford, especially when the Heat Pump is £4k alone that's the price of most full installs for a standard home for a gas central heating system in a typical British property. Then you have the issue that even if you use weather comp and design for 50c, older people want higher surface temps and don't want fan coils pushing the air around to make up for the lower flow temps. Honestly I love fitting HP, Gas, not fond of oil and LPG just causes me to go home stinking but I feel like AC and mechanical ventilation would be better and having worked in america where many house builders are now trying to build passive houses on a commercial scale I feel the UK should be doing the same. After all if you don't have to consume any energy to keep a property at a comfortable level you've already saved the carbon footprint of building the property and don't have to worry about running costs which in turn means more spending money for home owners to put back into the economy. Perhaps that's just a little too logical for government though.
@@effervescence5664 Yep. I can see why HeatGeek is pushing Air Source (💷💷💷…) but the overwhelming majority of British home owners just aren’t going to go for a system like that. It’s far too expensive and intrusive.
@@SisterAbdullahX Yes it's not a large percentage of our business at all. We thought it would be hence we invested into the courses and even have a guy that's done stuff with Heat Geek. But for domestic it just hasn't been, commercial for the last 2 decades it has been a decent investment but it has for the most part been a tax deductible eco benefit to those institutions and companies we've installed for. Home owners on the other hand can't claim it all back or knock it off their personal tax, and some in older solid wall properties or ones of significant enough cultural interest can't have heat pumps at all. Insulation where permitted and a well designed gas installation will serve them far better until such a time that a wall hung heat pump can be produced.
The advantage of course of a heat pump is that you can combine it with solar and battery storage to reduce the running costs over time. But I take your point it is a bug chunk compared to a new Combi boiler. Although even Combi systems would benefit from bigger rads and lower temps. I believe there are finally some regs coming in that new builds should be low temp which will help things. Ive consistently argued now that all new builds should be as energy independent as possible. Solar, batteries, heat pump and eV charge points as standard wherever possible. Reduces the load on the grid over time and reduces fossi fuel usage which will ultimately lower electricity costs. Passive house standards should be adopted too we're way behind the curve in that respect. And we need to look at ways to get costs of retrofitting this stuff down. Economies of scale will help eventually.
I have a question for the experts. My current 24kw combi boiler is set to 58 deg c. We are very satisfied with the room temperatures after an hour of the CH being turned on. Does this mean there is a good chance we can get away with just a ASHP and the rads and pipework are OK? Its currently 22mm pipework
it depends on the property heat loss. If you set your flow on the boiler to 60 and you are acheiveing 21 inside when it is -2 outside then you may be close with the radiator sizes. Pipework will depend on the heat loss though. How big is your property in m2 and when was it built? Is 24kW a combi boiler?
@@UrbanPlumbers yes its valiant ecotec combi 24kw or 22kw not sure. Its a 4 bedroom 1930s build. There's no cavity wall but we now have triple glazed windows which made a big difference. Just done a edit the boiler temp is set to 58deg and I'm sure it could be set lower and run for longer. We usually turn heating on just 2 or 3 hours at a time 2 or 3 times a day when its 0 degrees outside. The inside is never 21deg its 19 deg which we actually like.. im actually in London
@@cooliocrib4409 4 bed with triple glazing and roof insulation should be below 10kW heat loss. Althogh heat pump may work on your current radiators it would not be very efficienct to run it like that. The bigger the radiaotrs the lower flow temperature required and higher efficeincy. There is no running away from large rads, unless you install UFH or have a very well insulated house. The fact that you can drop flow to 58 when it is 0 outside means that heat pump would work fine in your property, but you may still have to upgrade pipework (usually just primary piepwork), install new hot water cylinder and change some radiators or move them around, etc.
Retro fit heat pumps aren’t great or efficient. Only way a heat pump works effectively is with underfloor heating and the house has been built with a heat pump in mind.
Hey Simon, as usual absolutely stunning install. The work is a true master piece and I know you installed this to someone spec. However shame about the design and products that have been used here , the radiators are truly and shockingly ugly I would sooner have a poster of the elephantman on the wall. Cost for this was probably £25k if this is what the government is encouraging people to have ? We urgently need a new government !!!(I know of an estate that had these fitted and thus far winter cost £1500.00 per quarter , they have to be left on 24/7 .... this size probably £2000.00 per quatre...) And finally I hope who the person who sold this to the customer advised them that , after the install there's no going back to there gas boiler...cuz that will be the next thing this incompetent government will make law...people you have been warned ⚠️ Don't be fooled.......a master piece of workmanship Simon as always 😉
Even ths govt is not going to mandate a return to gas boilers. Even conservative (apart from the morons in the 'Net Zero Scrutiny Group') recognise that gas is on the way out.
£2000 a quarter, so at £0.15p a unit (we're talking the past here), that's 13,000KWh of input, now assuming you're getting an utterly atrocious CoP of 2x that means 26,000kWh of heat, lets times it by 2 for the whole of winter. 52,000 kwh of thermal input into that building for space heating. Now my 80's three bed semi requires 10,000 kwh for space heating each year - so I don't think so.
What a massive mess of pipes and pumps. There’s NO way I’d ever have this nonsense. I have a single Combi gas boiler in the kitchen behind a single cupboard door. All the pipes are hidden. But thirds heat pumps take up way too much space and multiple rooms.
If I wanted low level heat 24/7 in warm weather I might consider a heat pump but I need heating from 6-11pm in the middle of winter and the technology is not there yet?
Sorry for being negative but heat pumps aren't worth the money. Winter time, non stop 5kW power consumption from 9KW ASHP. This business is for people who have easy money and they don't know what to do with it. I was saving for years, now I regret my decision. Shame that I didn't think twice before the purchase.
We have been through this Rafal - your install is a mess and clearly installed by people who did not know what they were doing! Exactly what I say in the video. I offered to help but I do not think you were interested in having the system put right.
Great vid. I wish that you had said something about how this house, looks like a traditional Victorian, was insulated. I believe that this is where the system succeeds or fails.
@@britexpat_l33t 1870s house, good chance inside and outside is listed so they probably couldn't insulate the walls, only floor void and roof. Then relying on the thickness of the walls as thermal mass and high enough R value to cope. Not ideal but unfortunately this is one of the stumbling points of much of the UK housing stock. Solid wall terraced houses which can't have outside insulation fitted or internal due to room size limitations or listed/ conservation status, and those that have had insulation fitted if not fitted with a vapour barrier have bricks that basically start turning back to clay in some cases.
It probably works fine but it looks like a maintenance nightmare. There's half a billion parts to that system and unfortunately the end product while technically neat is incredibly ugly from an aesthetic standpoint. Why not just do forced air? Each room can have its own thermostat and the whole system would just cost 5k installed. Not to mention the house could be cooled too.
So? We're long past the point where all fossil fuel use has to stop. We're already past the point where we're going to need to actively capture CO2 from the atmosphere of we want to avoid catastrophic environmental damage.
@@MostlyPennyCat Well how do you know? You can’t stop the use of fossil fuels. Don’t expect much to change either until we see some fusion successes at ITER hopefully.
Really appreciate the time you've taken to put this together. I'm scraping together the pennies to take the heat geek courses - ACS resits this year/van power steering failing/children... Knowledge always pays in the end. Thanks again.
I'm hoping the Gov will throw a large wad of money at it. Its going to need a combined effort - Insulation, Heat pumps etc, its too much for the average working person to shill out.
@@jameslewis875 What’s the qualification called? If your thinking about the new CIPHE 2-day low temp heating design course then that is just a pre-requisite for the heat pump course (it’s replaced the energy efficiency course).
Heat geek is by far the best course out there and I have been to a lot of so called heat pump training courses. CIPHE have new low temperature heating course. I have seen the book for it. Let’s see if it’s any good.
@@UrbanPlumbers Thanks. It has to be challenging to be worth anything. I'm just a little worried whether challenging will be 'recognised' as better or whether a course of training taking a minimum AM unt of time and effort will be 'enough'. Either way, if I am fitting low temp heating I want to be confident that I understand the many variables as best I can.
Looks like these people should have put some insulation in too and saved a bit on the fairly epic install. And 22mm copper to the kitchen taps? Doesn't that mean a long wait for some warm water to turn up? Interesting to see the UFH just being inlined with the rest. I was hoping to do that but not done the sums yet to check the flow rates. Nice explanation of what you've done here. Oh and I was just admiring that nice set of bends before you mentioned it. Always a sign of quality work :-)
The best to use a heat pump with under or infloor heating. Underfloor heating typically uses water at 37/40 deg C . It takes more energy to raise water to 70C, or the new 55C, raiditor temp, than 37C, floor heating temp. Which means either a major renovation or new builds. Because of the cost it's probably better to finance it in the original mortgage, so new build.
I have a heat pump system I installed myself. I have multiple heat pumps and multiple registers, wall and ceiling mount. It heats and cools excellent. I can cool my house when it’s 100f outside for a dollar or two a day depending on how much we’re home
This hasn't taken off in the states. But mini-split and VRF systems have found a market and foothold in certain scenarios. As the issues with quality and ridiculous cost and lead time on parts improves, this will get better I think. But in the states we have so much land. So it's not very convincing to use a VRF system over a tried and true boiler/chiller for commercial/industrial buildings when you have the room for it. Even going with all packaged and split systems is preferable. If you're gonna run hundreds of feet of pipe, filling it with cheap water seems preferable to expensive refrigerant. Edit: single and multi-zone mini-splits are actually pretty reliable. Can be annoying to work on when they're not but it's not often they break down. We love using these for smaller server rooms on our commerical accounts.
A fantastic display of plumbing at its best the whole thing is beautiful to look at from a technical point of view but your home is looking like a water treatment plant and the cost is astronomical so my question would be WHY.
@@UrbanPlumbers I am glad you are wealthy enough to spend this amount on what will in a few years prove to be the next big scandal like Diesel cars are today, unfortunately only 5.1% of the UK population can afford to shop at Waitrose the other 94.9% will be forced to sleepwalk into this green nightmare mind you it is still a lovely bit of Plumbing.
@@jimh5031 In Scandinavia we have been building houses with triple glazing and insulation, also what i would call with a under roof. Also sealed doors. Here in Australia they are all extras, for a crazy price. Funny how when things become standardized and perform a function well, it pays to invest.
I have a 32kw hoval heat pump here in Switzerland. Works great. Quieter, more reliable, cheaper to run and better heat production than my old oil boiler. Doesn’t smell and needs no maintenance. And all our electricity is green. I guess the UK is too humid for them and the houses too badly insulated. Admittedly it did cost 80k to install so it’s not a pure cost consideration.
Any mechanical device requires maintenance. Air to anything heat pumps need regular cleaning, change of oil and fridgerement, plus any parts that stop working. I would still advice to have wood fired boiler as a back up to heat pump case of power failure, its just smarter to hate options and electricity provided is not ever guaranteed, otherwise there would not be clauses in the power company agreement. Also sorry to burst your bubble, but there isint such thing as green electricity....Solar farms create dangerous waste that only few companies are attempting to recycle, but they are taking huge risk top of material priceses being high, so if those go down that business is done for with out government subsidies witch are only reason why other "green" projects in general can even operate. Wind farms are inefficient, wasteful and create even more dangerous waste we really cannot recycle at the moment, so nether of those two cant be called green, or cheap since that energy as is, is very expensive, but moment you realize its so "cheap" only because government subsidies you realize its unsustainable. Only the classic lets milk from the naïve populous using this green ideology. Hydro would be best of those 3 methods, but it tied to geography, changes the eco system and looking for instance how things are in China, causes severe issues how water works. Of course climate change, crisis or what ever is the newest scare term is said to cause the Chinas droits in south and floods in north that use to be wet in south and dry in north, but maybe if you redirect whole major rivers that might have effect on how water works, specially when ground water has been over used and polluted in China. Heat pumps are rather nifty little devices but 80K for install...what kind of mansion you have? Bit under 200m3 house stays warm with 5K including everything air to air pump and fire place does the harsh frost help when its efficiency drops around minus 20C.
@@Hellsong89 all hydro here. Never had a power failure but if I did I have a fireplace and plenty of chopped seasoned chestnut wood. It never drops below about minus 5 (in feb) and most of the year it’s above 12 at night. If all else fails I have a mountain home 2 hours away. But it seems unlikely it would ever get that bad. 40k was parts and equipment, 40k plumber, builder and electrician. The install was non trivial on the mountainside, required helicopter etc. house is about 300m^2 and 32kw is probably slightly oversized. 24 was borderline.
😂🤣 WTF , was the punter happy with those rads 😂🤣 you gotta be kidding. I enjoy the content from UPlumb, HGeeks and Skillbuild . But this was really just an advert . What roughly did the install cost and how much are the running costs ? Joe public doesn’t want to know about COP figures on paper or kw/hr numbers , they want to know pound shilling and pence . HOW MUCH ? Too many people dancing around the cost issue.
@@foppo100 Problem is that there will be a considerable amount of people willing to play being an expert, and when the bill is paid and the system doesn't live up to its promise, they are long gone. Same happened years ago with companies installing plastic door frames, windows, etc. On the surface it looked like a job well done, until you find the installation flaws, that end up costing you even more in the end.
This presentation is excellent, and I make no criticism of the content, but my assessment of the big picture is that we will never have enough skilled experienced and honest people to address the huge scale of these changes. When you have that many bulky components and that much pipe work in a domestic property, you have to ask the Roger questions. These government green policies will lead to a massive bandwagon of incompetent charlatan entrepreneurs and ill trained salesmen/advisors/surveyors/installers. The amount of road traffic movements needed to support piecemeal conversions like this will be colossal and this will be hidden/disregarded in the bigger arguments about overall savings to the country. A decade from now, we will have an army of lawyers promoting claims against bad installations. We’ve seen this all before. Wherever there’s a green policy being enacted, there is an inherent conflict of interest. In short, heat pumps have their place, but that is only a small and selective place in our existing infrastructure. I wish I could be persuaded otherwise.
We have no choice but to move away from gas. How it’s done it’s a different question. You make some good points. All I can do is to promote correct and diligent practices needed for this technology to work correctly.
I live in Colorado, and my grandparents' 6 year old heat pump works just fine. It's not designed for whole-home heating by any means, but it was barely any more expensive than an equivalent AC, and keeps their bedroom warm on spring and autumn nights far more efficiently than a resistive heater would. Saying that _they don't work_ is simply wrong, and makes me feel like you really just dislike them because you make a smaller profit margin from installing them. It would make far more sense to say that they are typically not the best solution specifically for whole-home heating. I've never considered whole-home heat pump use since it gets super cold where I live, and it would be too big, but they make a great substitute for standard ACs.
@@trentoncarr I did watch the video. That doesn't excuse the title being a BLATANT LIE. If they don't work, and he installs them, then he is selling nonfunctional equipment, which he clearly isn't. I don't know why people have started allowing 2010-era explicit-lie clickbait to make a comeback, and I don't like it one bit. Think about how many people scroll past this video and add it to a list of confirmation biases. It's not good, at all.
@@specialopsdave He likes them a lot in the comments too. I think the title is just hardcore clickbait and is making the comments section pretty wild. lol
Nice video. Personally its too big a cost to the consumer. These installs are in semi/detached houses. How many high rise buildings are there in England alone? Theres no way heat pumps can be installed in these. We have used fan coils in N.Ireland for a long time and even though theyve been set to a great standard, we live in a generation were people are living longer and people feel the cold. Physicalogically (prob spelt wrong) when they touch the rad people expect it to be roasting hot. I think Hydrogen will win the race and heatpumps will replace oil burners in rural areas.
You have hit the nail on the head, we fit every type of heating under the sun and low surface temps on radiators are one of the biggest complaints from older customers, or even customers that had them fitted 10 years ago in their late 50's now in their late 60's are feeling cold. So we're ripping them out (supposed to have a 25 year working life) and fitting back a gas boiler in many instances. The psychological impact is quite big when dropping to 50c or below, yet current water regulations in the UK limit hot water temperature to below 46c to prevent scolding, and even less in care homes and alike at 41-43c. Makes for amusing call outs when residents in care homes complain of luke warm water but our hands are tied by legislation.
Also people need to see what a service entails, because believe me when i say this, its not 100 pound service haha. The fan unit alone on those models are well expensive. Also mice love heat and these things are outside. There will be a fair few callouts to chewed wiring i bet in the next few years.
@@Etacovda63 technology has changed as hydrogen is very flammable and we can now deal with it in a domestic environment. Its actually very expensive to produce grey/blue hydrogen and most created using methane gas, so why would of it took its place if it was already in situ lol. We need to act now as the north sea cant supply the demand we need and no more russia gas lol
Amazing video, it would be nice if you could give us a ballpark figure of how much this installation cost, materials and labour. No need to break it down but just so we can gauge how much it cost to install a ASHP. Really nice to see the Heat Geek Assure programe already up and live 👍🏼
This would be an expensive example of a heat pump installation, with the cylinder in the cellar there’s a lot of extra labour involved and a £700 prv pump
The heat pump alone looks to be a Grant Aerona32 10kw model, the tank, pipework, llh, controls, prv pump, insulation, radiators; £4,000 £1200 Unknown amount of pipework but allow at least £1000 £500 £500 £800 prv pump £1000 pipe insulation £2000 (12x radiators) £1000 radiator valves (estimated) Total materials £11,000 + London labour cost for potentially a week 2 people x 5 days £4000 or there about. Total estimated cost £18,000 Inc VAT
@@effervescence5664 In other words, fk that. It's really starting to p1ss me off how any videos showing ASHPs don't go through the economics. How can anyone have the debate if we don't know the facts. Need to know installation cost, pre and post running costs, maintenance costs and expected lifetime.
As ever, an excellent video Szymon. Well explained, a great install, really professional. It's strange seeing a job I've seen in real life on TH-cam. Thanks for showing me around.
Hi. Just wondering what is the power usage of a heat pump. Is a 10 kw unit using 10 kw per hour .Or is there a way to compare oil burner as an 1 gallon jet per hour. And as with oil were i can put it on for 2 hours or do you have to leave a heat pump on all the time and let the stats cut in and out
no, heat pumps are rated by heat output, not by electrical input, you can check the spec sheet of the unit, and either it'll show the max wattage or amps - either as a max rating or fuse size (which you can multiply by voltage to get watts)... As a rule of thumb the max draw is about 50% of the rated heat output, however, this isn't what the heat pump will be running at most of the time, and that will be lower when set up correctly. Even with an oil boiler you are (in most cases) using more oil having it running for 2 hours a day only vs having it trickle heat in at a lower flow temperature, with a heat pump that saving is even more pronounced. Heat pumps don't use a thermostat in the typical fashion - as they make it more inefficient, instead they are set up with weather compensation - like a gas boiler (and probably oil boiler) can. Where it adjusts the flow temperature based on the outside temperature to target a set indoors temperature. That isn't to say you can't use it in a way that is controlled by a thermostat, you totally can, but generally it's going to work out more expensive, unless your house is completely vacant most of the time.
New build: underfloor heating and well insulated, go for it. Retro fit old house: radiators and drafts, it's too problematic. What happens with your very accurate flow settings after a few years of neglect and calcium build up. Just watching you sets my head spinning with all the complexities of such an install.
@@UrbanPlumbers Thats it, but everyone wants things to just work forever. Just look at all the uncleaned gutters and downpipes, people not servicing their cars every year. No one takes care of anything, just buy cheap and throw away sadly. Awesome to see your company doing good honest work, keep it up!
@@roland9367 The unit cost Air to Air heat pumps seems alot cheaper the mono block air to water heat pumps, & thats before you buy the radiators. wonder why?
You just wait until the likes of boxt start flogging heat pumps and get the home owners to do their own survey and then pay their combi slingers £750 to fit them 🙈
To everyone commenting on the size of the radiators I would just like to point out that from June 15th 2022 new Part L building regulations will require all full central heating installation including gas boilers to be low temperature of maxium flow of 55C
What it means in practice is that even on gas boilers you will have to install radiators of considreably larger sizes and in older properties it simply means radiators of similar size as in this video for rooms with comparable heatloss.
See below
"A revised version of Approved Document L (Part L) of the Building Regulations has been published which will take effect from June 15th 2022. With this revision there are a number of changes to guidance and requirements covering both the new build and retrofit markets.
With regards to existing dwellings the main points are:
Complete New System Installations require:
An appropriate heat loss calculation for the dwelling
A system sizing methodology that takes account of the properties of the dwelling, such as the Chartered Institute of Plumbing and Heating Engineering’s Plumbing Engineering Services Design Guide
The system should be designed to operate at a 55°C heating flow temperature"
55c doesnt seem hot enough to kill and stop bacteria growth the system will get clogged up
So they’ve changed the regs to make the giant radiators of heat pump installs look normal. Space is at a premium in most older houses in the UK hence the popularity of combi boilers allowing removal of tanks to free up living space. In my opinion heat pumps have a place in new homes designed for them but as a retrofit too expensive and too room intensive, wait for better tech.
I think people are reading too much into the size of the rads. A modern new-build wouldn't need such large rads, and the ground floor would typically be UFH.
That means the return will be below dew point and condensing boilers will waste energy
@@rsole65 I agree. It's all so farcical. Seems to me if you want to be green you better have deep pockets. To me, that is fundamentally wrong. I want to be green but I can't afford it. And that probably applies to most of us. Sadly, those like me and many others also, are slaves to oil and gas, and ironically we are the ones who can least afford it.
Here in the southern United States, we use forced air heat pumps very effectively. In the event of the extream cold, it is backed up by electric resistance heat. This back up heat is seldom needed but can also act as emergency heat if the compressor fails. With the very hot summers the ability to provide air conditioning makes this the most practical system for most southern states.
It's probably a good system for the southern US, not so good in northern Europe though
@@pedazodetorpedo IMO not so as we used a split system for a good few years before moving elsewhere and really miss the system in summer or winter.
@@pedazodetorpedo works fine in Canada.
Hot summers and very cold Winters.
Up here in New York there pushing heat pumps now.
@@ericdunn6232 The Canadian Government has explicitly stated heat pumps are appropriate for the entire country. That _really_ says a lot. 🇨🇦
I am from Romania and I am a woman. Your video was helping me incredibly! So thank you In my country, heat pumps are at their beggining. But due to energy crisis, there is crazyness on the market. It is a jungle, actually. Huge lack of knowledge, few good specialists, and lot of abuses. Myself I started to learn a bit about heatpumps and installations after having a very painful experience with an insltaller claiming to be an expert. I found no other solution than to start learning myself, learning the heatpump installer manual like a bible and start testing really well the so call "experts" offering to reinstall correctly my pump. Was it enough? yes and no. But... your videos were solid milestones for me, on the road to learning from the best. Therefore I am sending you my entire gratitute. Love from Romania 💜🧡
Same over here in Germany. Since the beginning of the energy crisis so called "experts" took over the maket with their cash grab methods. Everyone, who did not do their research on heat pumps gets scammed most likely. But once it's done correctly, oh boy, get ready to safe some big €€€, I just got back 500 € from my electricity company because I predicted 3500 kWh and only used 2200 kWh.
Your a brave ♀️.. If nobody understand in your area, then find a hydraulic engineer, these machines are actually hot fluid pumps and need careful mathematical calculations and unrestricted flow, both are critical for SCOP of 3.5 or higher..
Good luck 😊
Looks like a very good installation. Well it wouldn’t surprise me if this installation cost £15,000-£20,000 probably slightly more. In my opinion I think this is way too much money for most families to go down this route.. personally before installing a air source heat pump I go down the route of installing insulation possibly new windows and also looking on how to improve the buildings fabric to decrease heat loss. From my experience as a heating engineer, heat pumps have a place but most the time badly installed and proper care and do diligence is not taken while surveying the job.. I personally would advise people to look into how to make the property more energy-efficient through wrapping it up then installing a heat pump on old properties.
Now if you had a brand-new property that was 100% up to scratch building regs regarding insulation or possibly a passive house then a air source heat pump would be ideal specially if you have underfloor heating everywhere..
Personally I think spending £20,000 on improving windows, insulation etc is far more bang for your buck
Far more bang for your buck than what? Good insulation is a prerequisite of installing a heat pump based system anyway so it isn't a case of either or but after those improvements you suggest have been made. I think Simon covered it, alot of care should be taken over the system design and heat loss calcs to avoid dissappointment.
Replacing windows in the house especially if you’re going to go to the high U value triple glaze plus the proper airtight installation and hopefully water leak proof will cost just as much as a heat pump if not more.
Air sealing is your biggest bang for the buck and the simplest and cheapest.
The proper insulation on a new build or upgrading insulation should’ve been something that was tackled long ago in the first place before the heat pump installation.
Then with those considerations out of the way and properly implemented you would need a smaller heat pump costing you less because you have already maximize your insulation and air sealing and prove it and document it by doing a whole house blower door test.
Right. They installed a wooping 17kW HP. Customer has a very big house or a very old house.
Step 1. insulate the house to a modern 30w/m2 heat load (at worst conditions)
Step 2. upgrade to properly calculated underfloor heating throught the house.
Step 3. choose an easy to install yourself monoblock HP (4-6kW)= 4000 euro and a separate easy to install 100 liter HP boiler= 1000 euro.
@@conr3x step 3 10:1(or more) modulation Gas condensing boiler @1000E :P
Spot on! Fabric first is the phrase
Nice install. It's of the outmost importance to reduce the Average temprature of the water in the system. Every degree that the temprature is reduced is about 2,5% Efficiency. I have a Geothremal heat pump and my Maxium temprature is set at 28C. Noramlly the system runs at about 24-26C. Last year I had a COP of around 6.5, including warm water production. A lot of people on here are saying that the install is complicated and saying that doing the caluclations on the average heat loss per room is too much work when really they should be doing this work regardless of what system they're installing.
That’s a nice cop!
You are right. Before installation of new heating system you should know the demand.
Payback time ? Radiator aesthetics? I've been designing central heating systems for 50+ years , those radiators in the music room may do the job , but they look horrible , my customers simply would not have them , and you haven't got enough wall space for horizontal ones, that's going to apply to every room , by the way , your pipework is excellent , regards Steve
and as it is a music room not going to help with acoustics
@@valvemonky4734 never thought of that one , excellent point
Absolute pleasure working with you Simon. Your a great embassador for the industry!
ohh, thank you
@@UrbanPlumbers what was the total cost of the installation including parts?
Hey Simon, as usual absolutely stunning install. The work is a true master piece and I know you installed this to someone spec. However shame about the design and products that have been used here , the radiators are truly and shockingly ugly I would sooner have a poster of the elephantman on the wall. Cost for this was probably £25k if this is what the government is encouraging people to have ? We urgently need a new government !!!(I know of an estate that had these fitted and thus far winter cost £1500.00 per quarter , they have to be left on 24/7 .... this size probably £2000.00 per quatre...) And finally I hope who the person who sold this to the customer advised them that , after the install there's no going back to there gas boiler...cuz that will be the next thing this incompetent government will make law...people you have been warned ⚠️ Don't be fooled.......a master piece of workmanship Simon as always 😉
Just wondering could put it Out There... the Make and Model of Robust Circulation Pump you used to pump that seriously Hot water around the Circuit...as I'm sure many folks would have an Interest in that Pump....I have been told "Stuart Turner " Brass/ Bronze pumps do hold up well as Booster Pumps... But haven't had experience with their Circulation Pumps ...Great Upload...
@@TheLegend-nx3mm nonsense
My god. What on earth have your customers got to do for a living to afford this monstrosity of an install. Most of my customers are scraping together the money for a 2k combi swap. As always the standard of your work and knowledge is unquestionable, and I’m sure all of us heating engineers can appreciate seeing someone doing something perfectly to the book, but for millions of people in this country this technology is simply a financial non starter and will never be affordable or practical. As far as the changes to the building regs, I can tell you now that hardly anyone is gonna do it. Just like the ridiculous Erp sticker calculating fiasco, that’s largely now just ignored, or boiler plus which is often again just ignored for people on fixed incomes then every penny counts and new controls are often an expense they won’t go to. These giant 20k heat pump installs are just pie in the sky virtue signalling for the middle classes. I’m calling people this year, regular customers for a boiler service and being told by them they can’t afford it. Yet more regulations coming in to make installs even more expensive for people. I’ve got fifteen years in this industry left till I retire and I can’t wait.
People have diffrent priorities mate. Strange how £30K car does not raise any eybrows - but a £10-15K heat pump creates a mass hysteria.
All so true. I still enjoy the industry but there is no question that the push toward completely refitting houses regardless of if it's the best choice or not is just pushing people into needless debt.
@@ItsFriscoBaby no one is forcing anyone to install a heat pump. The opposite is happening, people are being encouraged to go that route with government grants.
@@UrbanPlumbers I didn't say they were being forced.
What I sad was they are being pushed in a direction regardless of its suitability which is exactly what's happening.
that's a bunch of copper
It's always about the installation so finding the right people is, as always, super important. I mean the equipment is important but without the right installers, it's never going to work right. It's always about hiring the right people. Hire the right people and they'll make sure you get the right equipment. FWIW we got a new heat pump last fall and it's been AMAZING. Rising power prices and our monthly bills have dropped significantly. Love it.
I got one last summer and this winter it saved me $600 versus heating with propane. In 10 years it will have paid for itself so basically I got a new AC unit for no cost.
@@kamX-rz4uySame here. And the faster prices rise the faster it pays for itself and the rest of those savings go right into the bank. SADLY, the people that need something like this the MOST are the people that can afford it the LEAST. We need a way to get people living paycheck to paycheck the better tech that will reduce power needs. imho
You must like cold showers
@@Jamie_Johnson What does that have to do with heat pumps?
@@kamX-rz4uy Heat pumps are not going to give you a hot shower
I've watched Rogers videos and to be honest nothing he said is false. Heat pumps can be made work in every house but they are not the best solution for every household. Maybe the running costs he talks about are more down to bad installs rather than the system itself
Those two huge radiators look ridiculous.
Honestly though, nobody is saying everyone has to get a ASHP right now.
The government want to transition to it as long term gas is unsustainable and of course the people with the gas (i.e. russia) are not the best people to be dealing with.
In the long term, the supplies of gas will get lower and lower and the price (inc carbon tax) will get higher and higher.
This is future proofing your home in my eyes, though of course not financially viable for most.
It only highlights the need for more government assistance on this. Though I think we can all agree that grants on proper insulation (or even instalment plans) are the way forward short term. Even gas fired homes will use less if they're properly insulated and will pay themselves off in the long term. People just cant afford the initial investment right now.
You need an industrial scale of sterling engines + liquid metal batteries
Excellent work, as always Szymon, but I think this video kind of makes Roger’s point. That install must’ve cost at least £20k, that prv pump alone was £700! And having to fit those massive radiators, including those TWO great ugly things in the lounge! Yes, you’ve shown that ASHP can work in old, solid walled houses, but the cost and impracticality/ugliness of the system will definitely put the large majority of home owners off, as would the running costs. It’s only the well off, virtue signaling “I’m doing my bit” crowd who would entertain that kind of thing.
The £700 pump was only because the cylinder was in the basement.
@@dinendale666 ok, so that’s knocked it down to £19.3k!
Couldn't agree more. I watched this video and I'm just thinking, damn how much did that cost, damn how much does THAT cost, holy crap 2 of those massive things I've got 3 rooms that would need the same thing how much would that cost!! and where the hell do I put the giant tank!
I'm gonna have a gas combi boiler until the day the gov bans them and my last installed combi before that can't be repaired anymore, after that I'll probably just get my shower replaced by an electric one and freeze in the winter I guess lol
@@lewbaker I’m gonna stick my neck out and say we’ll still be using gas boilers after 2050!
@@lewbaker a couple decades from now using gas will cost so much that you will happily spend the extra on doing things electrically.
I would not be surprised if direct electric heating would turn out to be cheaper than gas, at this rate.
As i and my company already installed over 1500 running mashines over the course of the last 23 years i can say: They work, you just need to know what youre doing.
But our system run at 35°C in and 28°C out temperatures so you need an under floor heating system or special radiatiors with fan support.
with these radiators you dont need to plaster your living room wall with radiators.
holy moly ... my customers would look at me and would ask if i have undiscovered psychological problems or something for even suggesting that.
*LITERALLY THE HOTTEST HOUSE* I have ever been in was in the UK in winter with a heat pump system.
I was fixing some kitchen cabinets for a neighbour and honestly, I could not breathe, it was 32ºC, I think the woman must have had a medical condition - YES this was a new build and it was installed from new with the house. But anyone that says they don't work is talking BS. Maybe badly installed or cheap systems don't work. But that's NOT to say heat pumps don't work.
@@piccalillipit9211 if it was her or his wish ... halleluja ... our under floor heating is self regulating thru the first law of thermodynamics. As soon as the airtemp. Inside the house reaches the surface temp of the ground at around 23-24 °C, as ex. Thru the sun, Our system shuts itself off ... physicaly ...
But if you wanna have a sauna we can make it one yes.
@@locomotive1213 - I only know it was a heat pump cos I asked why it was SO damn hot and she proudly told me it was a heat pump system - as if that in itself explained it. She showed me the equipment room where there were two MASSIVE tanks of water that were the heat reservoirs. They supplemented the ground source heating in the winter with heat extracted in the summer. I don't think a normal person would need these as a normal person does not live at literally tropical temperatures.
I don't know anything about heat pump systems, but I know for sure the idea they dont work as a technology is rubbish. Maybe this system cost £50k - I dont know, but it sure as heck worked and at £3,000 a year for gas as many in the UK are now paying it does not look THAT expensive at £50k, especially on a new build.
@@piccalillipit9211 ah well ... i come from germany so i dont know the relation to the costs of other heating systems in GB...
i just know you guys earn much more than we do.
when i was in school, every teacher told us we get 3 times the money in GB.
Our one family home system costs around 15.000€ for the heatpump system .
gas heater systems as example are around 8.000-10.000€ but since the psycho german goverment forces us to use a specific amount of "renewable energy" when homes are newly build you have to install a solar or PV system in addition to that, so the total prices ends up way over 15.000€.
@@locomotive1213 - OH I dont know - I have not lived in the UK for a long time, but the wages seem pretty crappy to me over there now. I was a salesperson in 2002 on £65k a year and not the average is £32k in 2022... But they keep voting for a "conservative" government and they keep getting poorer - what can you do???
I pulled the figure £50k out of think air purely based on the fact it was a large £1 million pluss house NOT a normal house for normal people.
Personally, I think €15k for a heating system is an appropriate amount of money if you get 25 years of life out of it and it is affordable to run. We are obsessed with everything being cheap cos we live in a disposable society. I make bespoke historical men's clothing. In 1930 a Singer sewing machine was nearly a year's wages. Today you can buy one new for €50 - but it will be in the landfill in 3 months. Professionals like me either buy the 1930's Singer or we spend €5,000 on a professional modern machine cos NOTHING domestic-made today will do the job...
The point of my tangent is we have been trained to think of EVERYTHING as disposable - so people have a heart attack at the thought of a €15k heating system. Its €1.66 a day if it lasts 25 years...
Oddly the same people will spend €50k on a car without batting an eyelid...
The pipe work alone is insanely complex, bordering on artistry. There must be miles of copper in that building.
Yeah, I noticed that too. That must a significant fraction of the cost of the entire installation.
The only downside to heat pumps is where I am theres a lot of stone walled buildings with awful insulation. The Emmitters need to be massive in them and it's just not practical. Thats no fault of the Heat Pump though
I know I will probably get a lot of negative feedback but watching this video reminds me are we looking for the right solutions. An example: a person works 100 kilometers round trip from home and he sells his car and get another vehicle that is 25% percent better on milage. An improvement that could be resolve by moving 25% or more closer to work. In this video I saw no evidence of increased thermal performance of the building envelope and all homes have the possibility of super insulation and air sealing resulting in dramatic reduction in required thermal load. A small heat pump definitely has uses such as domestic hot water supply, but the requirement of a 17 kw heat pump to alleviate but not fix a poorly insulated home is just the thing that makes the world and society in general still not looking for smart, efficient, long term, low life cycle costs that need to be mandated and installed in both current and new housing standards. A group of us where talking about the weather in summer at the current time because it was quite hot and one fellow said that he had just spent 28000.00 canadian dollars for a ground source geothermal system. When I said that if he had spent half that money on insulation he probably wouldn't need much of a heating and cooling system. His face turned white when he realized what I had said.
Great video. The installation highlights the serious issues we face with old UK housing stock. Heat loss is the enemy in winter. In summer it’s going to be cooling. I think we have to seriously invest in super insulation before we install heat pumps. Most “ ordinary “ households won’t have the funds for these high end systems. I’ve invested in second hand woolly jumpers. Heat the person not the space perhaps?
When we stop the drafts ventilating our old homes, we are going to need to get the vapour barriers right to avoid rotting them out from the inside by trapping moisture.
Couldn’t agree more. The future (well the near future) is a thermostat at 18 degrees and a blanket!
Also turning condensing boilers down to 60 degrees. Small changes like this will have an immediate effect and whilst heat pumps and renewable energy are the future... we have a long way to go in the meantime. The government should be investing in insulation and nuclear power rather than giving grants to heat pumps companies
@@lewisjones5067 Having to sit with a blanket and gloves on in your lounge is more 18th than 21st century. You’re right about the nuclear power though.
@@AndrewHelgeCox why not just use soffit & ridge vents as American homes do?
@@AndrewHelgeCox I agree. I think we're going to see a huge number of problems over the next 20 years because of the big step up in insulation.
Complete nightmare. Avoid at all costs for as long as possible, until the government force you to have these wretched useless things installed. Hopefully by then there will be such an uproar that they'll abandon this stupid idea.
Too late, this retard we have Mark drakeford of Wales once heat pumps installed everywhere by 2030, it will be interesting to see how these tower blocks of flats are going to look, we're going backwards now you need another place for your storage cylinder, we took these out to replace with combi boiler, and we also had an immersion heater, also once this comes into force and you don't comply by having heat pump, you won't be able to sell buy or remortgage your property, the property would have to be certified with a heat pump and this is in the manifesto, these things don't work they are very noisy insufficient and the running costs are phenomenal, controversy to popular belief anybody can go and buy a boiler and fit themselves, these things would have to be fitted by a registered company at a cost of in excess of 15 Grand,
One of my customers was paying less than a grand a year for electric and about 1200 a year for oil. At the end of 2020 he binned the oil for a heat pump, his electric bill for the last year was over 5 grand, with the recent price rise and assuming that there are no further increases this year he'll be looking at around 7 to 8 thousand pounds, that's £160.00 per week and the place is freezing on cold days.
Depends on the location. I deleted oil burner, because it costs $300/MWh. Natural gas after war in ukraine $130/MWh. Wooden pellets/firewood $60/MWh. Soil not compatible with ground source heat pump. Electricty about $170/MWh. Gas and oil expected to go even higher. Air source heat pump is the only option which will cost the same as firewood but without hassle and smoke.
@@edfx don't be ridiculous, you're forgetting one thing, the installation of this piece of shite, in excess of about 20 grand, we fitted about 25 of these units last year, then you got the maintenance on them, the people that ring us to say they very noisy, they are huge and unsightly, not everybody has an extra room in their house or a basement and certainly don't have room in the garden, you'll be dead before you see any profit, they are an absolute joke here in the UK.
@@1971dave looked it up. kerosene about $130/MWh, electricity $300/MWh. Yeah, looks like investment that would cost you more and more as the time goes by.
10:00
You've got to be kidding me!! They're awful.
To help us out with the debate can you give us some figures please?
What was the total cost of the install? Edit: I saw 20k on another comment.
What CoP are they achieving?
Pre & post gas/elec kWh?
Really need some real world numbers for this.
What debate?
@@keyserxx Heat pumps...
I'll be honest watching this is like watching a master artist paint a masterpiece: everything is perfect! I wish I could count on every installer to know how little forgiveness there is on this style of installation!
In Australia we just use air based split system heating. It's quick to install and seems a lot easier than the amount of pipe work done here. I have a bunch of Aircon units in my house in all the bedrooms 2.5kw and lounge rooms kitchen etc 7kw and they all function as heaters and air cons. If one breaks all the others keep working. This solution seems overengineered and probably prone to failure as well as probably many many times more expensive. On the other hand looks like nice work 😂
Yes, installing an air to liquid heat pump is just silly. You will have to be a plumber to get that to make sense. Air-air units are easy to install, a lot cheaper and they will make a big difference. Half of Norway has them to heat the house during winter, and some years it will get hot enough in summer to use it as air con for maybe two days.
@@quadcopter Air-to-anything is fine for warm countries like Australia or Norway - well, probably excluding Svalbard. But it the temp regularly drops below -20C, the only way to go (apart from burning fossil) is geothermal.
Yes when it gets extremely cold then heat pumps become less useful although if Norway is using them they are probably fine for most of the world especially if you have some old type electrical fan ones for the days it does get crazy cold. I also opted for lots of split systems instead of one connected large unit so if one breaks all the others still work. I'm in a hot climate so mine are used 90 percent for cooling. I've never seen these water based ones before and I'd expect the cost would be insane. We do have hot water system based ones in Australia that utilise heat pumps although not many people have them because they are quite expensive and from what I've heard more prone to failure than the simple kettle style ones which are cheap although cost a lot more In electricity.if you know the channel technology connections he has recently done a few good episodes on heat pumps, apparently they are very uncommon in the USA which surprised me as they have heat pump air conditioners but don't bother making them reverse cycle. In Australia they can pretty much all do both heat and cooling.
Yeah I can just buy a mini split unit for around 1500, install it my self and keep gas for hot water and emergency heat. And you get Aircon in the summer as a bonus
@@jmi5969 I really don't know anything about this subject, but I have never seen ANYONE say "a warm country like Norway" before. Are you sure you meant Norway?
Roger point is that running cost of heat pump is more than Gas Boiler which is true. Because most people run their Heat pump below COP(Coefficient of performance) of 3.
COP of Heat Pump should be above 3 if they are going to replace gas boilers and reduce utility bills.
Achieving COP greater than 3 is very difficult if you are using Radiator with heat pump. COP depends on Temperature difference between supply water temperature and the outside Temperature.
Heat pump are effective when the supply water is around 35ºC -40 ºC range , even outside temperature falls below -15 ºC. At this temperature range COP will always stay above 3.
The solution is to use underfloor heating even for first floor to get the best out of Heat Pumps. Under floor heating can provide effective heating even when supply water is around 30ºC provided it is designed by professional.
Those massive radiators take space specially in a Music room and look ugly and will struggle to heat the place up when outside temperature falls below -10ºC.
running cost of gas is usually lower because gas is cheap as electricty is taxed more heavily than gas. This will have to change.
Having worked with heat pumps since 2005, here are some reasons they don't work;
Insufficient radiator surface area. Since heat pumps cannot supply 80 degrees C like an oil or gas burner can, you need larger radiators.
If you replace a burner of some sort and if the chimney runs through the house that heat is lost. Need to be accounted for.
There is a lot of cheap junk on the market. Don't buy it. A heat pump is not a heat pump.
Improper commissioning. Care must be taken to adjust flows and temperatures correctly.
If you run your radiator at 80C, you have very bad efficiency even with a gas boiler, since condensing boilers operates more efficiently at lower temperatures. To increase the surface area you can simply install fan coils, in reality heat pumps make sense with underfloor heating, fancoils and forced mechanical ventilation with heat recovery.
Also using radiators or only underfloor heating with heat pumps is stupid since you can only use it in heating mode, you can't use it for air conditioning at all.
So they cost a fortune to install, generate relatively little heat, need highly skilled fitters (good luck in UK) and need more pipework than a power station. But, hey, they "work".
I'd be highly doubtful they actually have significant carbon reductions given the carbon emissions associated with actually manufacturing everything required and installing it and then probably having a shorter life span than a gas boiler.
@@zoidberg444 I beginning to suspect it’s more about reducing actual energy usage than any carbon reducing measures (as good chunk of electricity is gas generated anyway and that is not changing anytime soon)
@@jasonaris5316 I have replaced my gas heater system with a heat pump and my annual kWh usage has halved. The current increases in gas prices mean that my annual gas bill has gone up by £8 per year as I only use it for a gas hob now. My electricity bill is going up but only about 20% compared to the horror stories about the increase cost for gas fuelled heating systems. I went for a heat pump as I did not have radiators installed and the cost and disruption associated with fitting a radiator system was something I wanted to avoid. I have an air to air system that supplies ducted air around the house and can be used to heat, dry and cool the air.
@@martinconnelly1473 we are not allowed air to air systems here in the U.K. (as they don’t want additional air con being run in the summer) it’s all about energy use reduction
@@zoidberg444 I dont understand this love for gas heating? Have you never walked down a street and smelled leaking gas? It is everywhere.
The thought of replacing my furnace for $5000🍁 had me cringing already, but watching this gave me heart palpitations at what the cost would be for this system.
don't worry - he's in london - the owners will be rich AF ;-) I bet mr urban plumber does pretty well for himself 🙂
Cheaper in the States.
I’ve an ASHP. Water heated to 35 deg into our underfloor heating. Hot water for DHW set at 45 cause that’s what we like shower at.
Total electricity cost for year (space heating, water heating , light, appliances etc) €1500.
Far cheaper than our old house with oil.
Insulation is key. No point fitting these systems to old houses that aren’t sufficiently insulated
lucky you, our electric costs are more like £5,000 for the year, with this very Heat pump installed into a new build house all callcs done for the RHI grant. very efficient and cheap in the summer months but seems very expensive in the winter, maybe more efficient compared to gas but with gas being cheaper per KWH than electric makes it a very expensive way of heating our house.
I’ve been attracted to this idea but it is too complex, regardless of system design. Even OP had to correct himself with return this and that, valve this and that. I bet it does work well but it still has an immersion heater. And these guys are experts. I’m not going to be an early adopter. I’m leaning to the Roger view for the time being. ROI doesn’t seem to be reasonable.
Heat pumps are designed to capture the additional air temperature from outside… great during the summer months if you have a pool. Expensive during the winter months (when you need it most) unless you have a solar or economy 7 solution in place.
ThermalPV & localised phase change storage is a much better solution for most domestic properties… & cheaper!
it's an industry that will reap the rewards of government subsidies; whether it's affordable or not.
Yeah, forget the planet we just want to see return on investment amiright?
@@PKWeaver74 no you’re not right. Cutting down on energy usage helps the planet. My focus is on making my house more energy efficient. New windows, additional insulation, having everything serviced regularly, just a few initiatives. I’m even considering panels as we have a south facing roof. But something that costs too much and still needs old tech to ensure hot water is not something that I’m going to adopt until the tech improves. I hope I haven’t pulled the rug on your smart arrested comment but hey, some of us think in more than sound bites😅
@@iangelling No, you haven't. I'm in the same boat as you, doing exactly the same thing but we still need pioneers who can afford to be the early adopters on principle, then economies of scale can reduce prices.
I'm not opposed to what you said, just throwing one of my sound bite thoughts out there to agitate for a response 😉
Here in Arizona heat pumps are all we have; up until this year, I didn't realize there was such thing as a regular A/C system that can't also produce heat. Crazy world out there
The main thing that needs upgrading in this country, it would seem, is the knowledge of our plumbers.
Great video as usual mate. Fantastic neat work. I’m not 100percent sold on these systems yet. The ashp unit is not a nice sight in the garden and those radiators are so big they stick out like a sore thumb. Iv got a 4yr old gas boiler with average sized rads in every room. Iv turned the temp on boiler down to 58 degrees and the house still warms up to a comfortable temperature.(insulation in my house isn’t great either) I think roger has valid arguments. Fan of you both 👍🏻
the boiler might last for 50+ years, at that. or, a good 20 years anyway. these heat pumps are so complicated with digital controllers and fragile parts, compressors, capacitors, refrigerant leaks, they are prone to having problems, they're outdoors, and they only last half as long. they're a little bit less expensive than a boiler to operate, because they only use a relatively small amount of electricity, but that's their only real advantage.
plus they're just plain ugly anyway
Great video.
We had a GSHP installed in our 1960's house about 15 years ago. We have over sized radiators but not as scientifically sized as your install. A lot of plumbing yes, it was 5K of work back then, about the same cost as the heat pump itself. We probably went about it the wrong way in that we improved house insulation after the install. We do supplement ours with a wood burner in the lounge in the winter, but otherwise very happy. I can't honestly say its any cheaper to run than other options (we have no mains gas in our village), but the complete lack of maintenance and not having to worry about oil top-ups is a real benefit.
Yes. But that’s ground source. Not beset by the same issues as air source.
Upgrading the fabric first should save money on the heat pump installation, but in simple decarbonisation terms the heat pump can be done a lot more quickly (and more cheaply) than the fabric improvements, so even though it's a bit inefficient there is an increasingly good case for just whacking in the heatpump first, then fixing the rest as finance allows, for the vast majority of people who can;t afford to do the whole damn thing in one blitz. Although mortgage-financing for retrofit may change that.
The fact you have to STILL suppliment it during winter kinda proves it has FAILED and WASN'T "worth it". The whole point of these systems is you shouldn't NEED to suppliment them at all with ANYTHING else - especially not a wood burner lol. Or at least that's what they make you believe with the adverts and publicity they get constantly - "it can make heat even in the winter and cool/heat during the summer".
Roger all the way. I feel sorry for the customers you’ve got to remember that’s there house not an industrial unit ugly radiators and ugly ashp. Once the demand for electricity goes up the so will the price with electric cars and so on. It’s easy to lower your bills just buy a jumper and turn your heating down a bit and save the planet and money. Not rocket science.
Good luck telling elderly relatives to just buy a jumper and 'man up'. FFS.
@@mensor good luck paying their fuel bill when they run out of cash.
@@lapisredux I know lol its like when the news says people are choosing between heating and eating and I'm like really lol? Are they? If you don't eat you die don't you?
@@mensor Foolish sound bite remark. CH was almost unknown in the 60s and 70s - why is it the go-to thing now? Consider - who benefits from the colossal cost of this system?
Nice install.........BUT what was the total cost of the installation?
£15 - 20K
If they had spent this money on as many solar panels as they could get on their roof, and 30kw/h of batteries, they would have a much better system. The insane amount of pipework and labour involved in this is just ridiculous.
They did. Solar panels and batteries were already in place before the heat pump installation. The system pay back with current energy prices is surprisingly short and saving quite substantial
At the time we did not know what the energy market would do!
@@UrbanPlumbers what’s the payback?
@@coooooool12342 what's the payback on a new 20K kitchen? Or a new 20K car?
Although this should be cheaper to run than gas and the system should last twice the time of an average gas boiler, it is not done for the payback. This technology saves energy as it uses up to 80% less energy than a gas boiler or direct electric heating and creates much less pollution.
Your payback is cleaner air and less CO2 plus some money saved on bills.
Obviously, there is a lot of badly installed air source (as there is loads of badly installed boilers) - on heat pumps problems are more pronounced and obvious though.
Szymon, your videos are second to none. You always take time to break things down clearly, what your opinions are and most importantly why. I think your channel is really underrated, and you still manage to find time for a good sense of humour. Thanks.
I'm confused. Does this heat pump perform the entire refrigerant cycle outdoors, and transport heat in/out of the house using heated/chilled water? Because that's what it sounds like you're describing. Radiators are a terribly outdated way to change the temperature of a room; there's minimal air circulation, no air filtration at all, and a bunch of heat lost warming the surfaces near the radiators when what you _need_ to warm is the _air in the room._
Correct, in the UK we have a lot of buildings that are plumbed for wet systems, so its considerably easier, and generally more acceptable to customers to convert these systems. Of course you could install a mini-split in very room but for the average British person they'd be what the hell is that thing on the wall. I'd like to see more systems using fan assisted radiators - but they are a bit of a maintenance hassle, filters need cleaning out regularly.
I'm Dutch and the default for a long time was to have heating only. Provided by heated water systems with radiators. No cooling in the house. But the radiators are placed so that natural convection takes place, most of the time under windows so to also 'shield' from cold air flows.
As you can deduct by now, it's all setup for a cold climate.
However, with time things did change. Central heating is still very common. But a lot of homes have floor heating now for comfort reasons. (Almost all homes arr multi floor with floor heating only on the main floor) This setup is easy to convert to a hybrid system with low temperature floor heating, and 'nornal' heating on other floors and to use for hot tap water. And a lot of homes do have split airco units now for more comfort during summer time, but those outside units provide noise pollution so they aren't that liked that much.
Another thing is that building regulations dictate a minimum of fresh air that needs to come from the outside. This is a massive heat leak and also a major source of discomfort for many homes. The old central heating system with radiators under the window did solve this (house is pressured down by a central air ventilation system, the windows have inlets for incoming fresh air flow) But with time this got a large overhaul in newly build houses with heat exchangers and no inlets on windows anymore, combined with better house isolation in general. But this reduced the inhouse air quality too much. New solutions that solve these problems properly while being green and such aren't that wide spread. Because these need separate inflow and outflow ducts for air and our building styles don't allow for easy retrofitting.
A good heating and cooling system with good ventilation is just hard to fit in a home. And retrofitting is even harder.
A follow up video in a years time would be interesting to see how the home owner rates the new system with the old one. I'll keep an eye out for it. Let's hope it airs regardless of the outcome!
Here is a real world example, after a year worth of use…
th-cam.com/video/duORuM3Tfp4/w-d-xo.html
Heat pumps work PERFECTLY fine. I installed an air source heat pump in my home last year and it works perfect! European countries who import Russian gas are feeling the pain and horror of buying Russian-fascist fuel that aids in killing innocent people. And gas is a huge contributor to climate change so we need to install as many heats pumps as possible, and solar on EVERY roof top in existence.
Yes, they need a bit more knowledge to install though as compared to a gas or oil boiler
@@UrbanPlumbers If you accept that heat pumps work, what's with the clickbait dishonest title? Heatpumps are just reverseable air con units. Simple thermodynamics with proven engineering. Suggesting they don't work in the title is a lie.
lol, shut your mouth mate.
Plus 2000w wind turbines if you live in any sort of windy area.. Our property in Scotland has added wind and OMG it works through the night and basically we use nearly NO grid electricty
Really informative great video. Very easy to see how they get a bad rep because of incorrect spec. The size of those radiators though wow!
I can run as many baths as I want with my combi-boiler and rapidly heat the House in between. Once you have drained your hot water tank your immersion heater kicks in at extortionate rates. I am only interested in my running costs. Heat pump costs are roughly 1/3 of pure electric systems but gas is about a 1/4, so no matter all the calculations about efficiency, gas is still the cheapest.
If you're only interested in running costs, then a properly installed heat pump will be able to run 1/4-1/5 of electric heating. And the average gas boiler in the UK runs at around 82%. So you need to add about 20% onto the gas price to get the same amount of heat. So gas isn't always the cheapest.
It's also clear from your first sentence that you aren't that interested in running costs, and are more interested in convenience. As rapid heating will cost more.
For many heat pump owners, the immersion is turned off, and can still boost just fine.
@@BenIsInSweden You are quite right that convenience is important to me as well as cost. One argument used is that the immersion heater will only kick in relatively infrequently. This assumes you don’t draw much hot water. Being a single household I probably use less hot water than most and I draw hot water about ten times a day. This means an immersion heater will be kicking in often as the cold water brings the temperature in the tank down. I have been reading also that here in the UK they are changing the rules to artificially distort the so-called advantages of heat pumps by, in one proposal, restricting gas boilers to an operating temperature of 55°C with the knock on effect that will have on radiator size and insulation etc.I don’t know about electricity prices in Sweden but they are very high here. Our government is also proposing to euphemistically “rebalance” the energy market ie by putting up gas prices . All of this just shows they don’t believe their own arguments and have to resort to dirty tricks to force people to accept heat pumps.
@@johncrosley1 That's not how hot water cylinders work. There's a hysteresis, and often a cylinder has a temperature probe about a 3rd of the way up - some have more than one.
e.g. for mine, once the probe reads a temperature below 10C of the set temperature, it will call for heat from the heat pump. The only time the immersion will kick in will be under the following situations:
- The immersion is enabled, and the boost button has been pressed on the control panel.
- As mine is R32, if any temperature above 55C is requested (e.g. an anti-legionella cycle). which will throw an error if the immersion is disabled. In R290 ones, they can do 75C without immersion, so more than enough for ALC without immersion.
- As mine is split with air to air, if it is set to heating priority (default is mixed, but hot water priority is an option), then as the heat pump is busy with heating it will use the immersion (if enabled).
Building regs have been changed over the years in the UK to improve home standards, and it's not really about trying to make heat pumps more favourable, but homes more energy efficient. A flow temperature of 55C on a gas boiler uses a lot less gas than 75C.
The issue with the UK is it has one of the highest spark gaps in Europe because of the pre-existing policies. About 1:4 as you say. The European average is about 1:3. Sweden has one of the lowest, at around 1:1.2, so gas heating never really makes any sense over even immersion.
A rebalance is also well overdue, a lot of the policies were done when coal was a primary provider of electricity, so gas was far more favourable for heating. The problem comes because so many people rely on gas for heating, with how to do it without causing fuel poverty.
The problem is as you said, electrical system needs upgrading, pipework needs upgrading, new radiators, installers need to be very competent because if any small bit isn't done correctly it won't work, it's expensive, it needs monitoring regularly, a low paid worker in an ex council flat in liverpool just cant afford this.
Flats should go on communal heating systems - it will make the cost and maintenance affordable.
there's no way this system will fit in my new build house not to mention 35% of my patio will be gone and then i would need to protect this pump from my son kicking a ball
When I saw those radiators, I instantly thought of the monolith in 2001: A Space Odyssey 😄
Would have to paint them black for that. I guess those space aliens understood heat pumps perfectly and were heating the moon with them - lol
@@UrbanPlumbers Monolith black would definitely look good to sci-fi fans 👍
yep i can see them fitting in well in a two up two down town house in the uk .lmao!
Brilliant video 👌 I've almost completed the awakening course on Heat Geek and its unbelievable what you learn. It was watching Andrew Millward and yourself that made me go for it and I'm so glad I did. The bar is definitely being raised with knowledge and installs like this which is great for the industry. Keep up the good work 🙌
thanks mate, great that so many people are doing the course and improvding the industry.
It must cost a fortune ! Who can afford this ?
And now I understand why heat pumps cost more over the pond.
When I think of a central heat pump, it's always air-to-air. Not air-to-water
Hey. I love your vids, but you didn't address the elephant in the room. How much did the customer pay for 28mm pipes and all of the oversized rads? To heat the same house, whats the cost for heatpump vs condensed boiler?
We have had our air source for 3 years now. Our oil fed boiler died. Cost me a fortune with solar panels and massive. REALLY MASSIVE radiators which I love. My house is lovely and warm now. I even enjoy getting money back every quarter. I may even break even eventually. But for now the family is warm. We were freezing using oil.
HOW MUCH TO RUN IT COMPARED TO THE OLD GAS BOILER
This reminds me why I don’t want one.
Great video !!
Hope our insulation and Bond & Seal helped. Its our Primary Pro insulation which we have started to manufacture as ASHP Installers were using our Condensate Pro to protect their waste pipe from the HP to the drain. They asked us to make the same for the 28mm distribution pipework, so we just launched Primary Pro insulation.
Making sure all the joints are sealed is an important part of the installation/efficiency. Our focus was to make the products UV & weatherproof out of the box, easy to fit in all weathers, look quality, and be simple to look after throughout the life of the HP /system.
Videos like this are vital to get the message out that heat pumps work, and the common sense approach is needed to help end-customers understand what is needed.
Heat loss calculations, survey.
Good advice from the start.
Quality specification/costing, so the end-customer understands.
Installation with nothing missed or made cheap, that will affect the efficiency and life of the system .
Commissioning to fine-tune every post .
Hand over/customer understanding.
Last but not least, annual services of the system to assure the very best efficiency.
Keep up the good work and videos, and I hope more and more will do the same to show heat pumps will 100% play a part in fossil fuel reduction and quality energy efficiency.
Hi and thank you for the comment. I find it hard find and to buy your product. What is the best supplier / website please?
Lol vested interest much?! Pahahaha and can't even get their wonderful product. Smh
Thanks, excellent video, I am a Chemical engineer and well used to piping,pumping,controls,heat transfer etc, but this is a very complicated install, well done.
However no way in my house, not enough room left, already loads of room taken up by solar controls and home battery, and the radiators are huge.
New builds are going to have to plan for a plant room for all the energy saving equipment.
this install is actually much simpler than a typical gas boiler S or Y plan and takes the same amount of space internally.
We just got used to the combi boiler that fits in a kitchen cupbarod. The mighty hot water cylinder is coming back.
@@UrbanPlumbers
You must be kidding! It looks like it has been designed by NASA to launch rockets! And it must cost thousands, instead of a maximum of £2k to replace a boiler. Also you can hear the fans already on the recording, and the radiators are the ugliest things I have ever seen!
im so confused. im used to refrigerant straight to fan coil units. ive never seen refrigerant to water to radiators. does the heat pump boil the water or is it just hot water???
Why not to install air-to-air heat pumps? Much smaller indoor units than those giant radiators. Less expensive and more efficient.
Yes, this leaves you with some noise from indoor units, you still don't have hot water. But probably even immersion heater low efficiency will be balanced by higher efficiency home heating. Or maybe smaller heat pump just for hot water?
What are your thoughts?
Another option is a high temp heat pump, that can get the water to a much higher temperature. Those work with existing heating installations... but they are pricey, and more expensive to run. Personally I have good hopes for replacing natural gas with green hydrogen. They're doing experiments with this in a neighborhood in the north of the Netherlands, using the existing gas network to distribute hydrogen instead. Household heaters and gas ranges can be adapted to run on hydrogen without issues.
This reminds me of living in a Steam Punk world, it's completely unfeasible for anyone on less than 3 digit salaries plus where would all the pipework,pumps,valves,air unit, storage tanks, thermostats and massive radiators go?
I'm a Marine engineer and there's just no way I'm turning my house into a boiler room.
Thanks but I'll stick to burning tyres on my coal fire!😁
Remember the movie Brazil? Central Services have nothing on this guy...
I've no idea either how most people will afford this. The promise (here in NL) is that we'll be able to get special loans or mortgages to greenify our homes, and that the cost of those loans are easily offset by the savings on the heating bill. But that €10k outdoor unit will have to be replaced in 10 years...
@@kaasmeester5903 Exactly! I can't believe the amount of ancillary equipment you need for one of these heat pumps. No wonder they're ruinously expensive.
Nice job but....
Not many people would have the kind of money to install a system like that and you had the benefit of a cellar to get most of the installation in and there's a lot of pipework involved and a lot of houses don't have cellars... !
Also not many folk would want radiators the size of icebergs hanging off the walls in their homes and it's always difficult to explain to people why there radiators are only getting Luke warm when they are used to having them boiling hot almost.... !
I think the best route to take would be insulating the house by fitting new windows and doors and insulating under floors and roof space etc and if done correctly will be a good investment , I believe the heat pump market will be very small for a long long time due to lots off different reasons some of which I've stated above and the more easier and most economical way ahead will be the Hydrogen boiler which I believe will be the way ahead in the future but it to has its faults and gremlins that will need to be ironed out before it becomes the next go to product for heating our homes...
Keep up the good work Simon and I'm looking forward to your next one
👍
Have you got recordings of the external unit turning on and off? That’s when the aircon near my window makes the most annoying noises, not when in continuous operation. Also, have you got recordings of multiple units turning on and off after multiple years of operation?
they do make noise, especially on defrost change over
Would be good to see & hear different models in action ... visitors centres etc ?
it has to vary between make & model , & newer models not old enough . . Seems to me even a low db noise can be annoying, but might not hear it if double glassing etc.
I am in America and I am an HVAC guy with a lot of knowledge in Heat Pumps and Solar Thermal heating. I have designed , installed and fixed many systems. I have been able to integrate Solar Thermal into Hydronic and Heat pump systems. They work out very well and are a good match. In the Midwest to Northern parts of America we cannot get by with just the Heat pump system because our Winter loads are twice the capacity of our summer loads.
We use Heat pumps but have to size the backup heat as large or larger than the Heat pump output by itself. My Solar scheme and design has worked very well but engineers fight me on it because they just cannot wrap their head around the larger picture. It works.
I just find all the equipment associated with heat pumps so bulky, so many homes just don’t have the space sadly
Excellent install and attention to detail but isn’t the essence of the problem that yes you can heat your house electrically with a heat pump but even in the current climate electricity (per kw) is still 3x the cost of gas?
Yes but the heat pump can be 300-500% efficient so still comparable or cheaper than gas! Watch heat geek channel for that!
wait till you cant pipe gas out of russia any more...
@@UrbanPlumbers Elect is x4 that of Gas.
You're saying it's possible to get a CoP of 5 from an ASHP??? You sure?
I do not see the economics working.
Newer ASHPs get a cop of 4 fairly regularly.
@@Etacovda63 Thanks.
So £20k to install to cost the same to run as a combi? What am I missing here?
I read a couple of scientific papers on ASHPs and GSHPs that said with the exception of CO2, for full life cycle, they're worse for the environment than Gas.
My house isn't small but I would need to buy next doors house to fit the plant and pipes for a system such as this. It all makes so much sense now 🤣🤣🤣
If there’s ever a video to prove heat pumps are beyond most peoples means, this is it. Just stay active (if you can)and wear more!😂
I can just see all that equipment fitting into my one bedroom flat. There is only one problem though, I wouldn’t fit into it afterwards! 😩
The scale and complexity of these systems renders Johnson’s aims essentially unacceptable nonsense. If as much effort had been put into properly insulating houses the CO2 produced by heating would have been a massively reduced. Let’s not forget that the electric to power heat pumps depends on gas for up to 60% (no matter how many wind turbines and solar panels you have no wind and no,sunlight means no power) so the trade-off is less clear cut. Also, there is a massive energy cost in the production of heat pumps and associated paraphernalia. Much of it will come from China so coal fired power. If to achieve “net zero” you front load with even more CO2 you negate the aim of CO2 reduction.
The strong message: go back to the drawing board and stop this lunacy before it gets even more out of control.
Heat pumps is exactly what will stop the current lunacy of burning fossil fuels at 80% efficiency to heat our homes.
Mr Ross does not know what he is talking about. Fossil fuels are most definitely on their way out. As they bloody well should.
@@user-kc1tf7zm3b Au contraire. I know my subject very well. I have a background in energy both by degree and professionally. I totally agree that fossil fuels are (and should) be on the way out. My point is that current policy is utterly nuts and counterproductive hence my comment on China. Check out China’s coal consumption vs the rest of the world.
@@Rossi593 Bloody hell! What do you damn well expect from the country with the world’s largest population of 1.4 billion? The United States does not even have half a billion, at only 330 million. However, the US has emitted _most_ of the world’s CO2 emissions at 399 billion tonnes (25%) over the centuries, which is double China’s cumulative total of 200 billion tonnes (12.7%).
China and India are certainly entitled to their own economic development and prosperity just like the United States. My ethnic Indian law studies teacher made a point of this years ago when I was in high school.
A little intellectual consistency would go a long way, Mr Ross. Lest you come off as an out and out hypocrite. Be more British and balanced in your outlook. 🇬🇧
@@user-kc1tf7zm3b Wow, you’re quite touchy.
Really complete explanation..but...real numbers are always avoided so can I ask....Watts input to unit (fans compressor etc) equivilent electrical watts output to equal the output of the unit, that is output over input times 100 to give efficiency ans lets forget the 400% advetised figures
A 5 ton/17 kW system seems pretty large for the size of the home. We have a total of 8 tons (forced air system) for 4,600 square feet above grade and a 2,800 square foot basement. I'm in Maryland USA and we see yearly temperatures between -18C/0F and 38C/100F. Average around 60% humidity, but can get much higher in summer.
I use a 8kW Daikin for 300 Square meters in the middle of Europe and its perfectly enough for us. Maybe this winter we have to help it with our old wood heater. We'll see.
@@wolfgangpreier9160 300m2 seems awfully large for 8kW. How is the weather there and how is your isolation?
@@alperenalperen2458 Middle European, currently very wet and about 10 Celsius, no isolation 39 centimeters of brick all around. Free standing in a North-South Valley. We have the most sunshine in the whole country. But its only moderate warm and cold throughout the year. No special roof insulation. 19-20 degrees in all rooms with old radiators from the 1980s. And warm water for 3 persons. Of course the heatpump has to work. About 18.000kWh a year.
In gas that would be 45.000kWh. And in wood + solar heater it was about 60.000kWh because of a very old inefficient wood boiler.
Of course wood would still be the cheapest form of energy but it also takes much work.
Shall keep my tiny basic combi boiler thank you! Talk about complicated and expensive!
Yes he only just understand s his own system but not fully ! I bet he doesn't even Label the system they never work and rely on immersion heater or gas water heater backup .
Also heat pumps are slow and can take days to respond to cold snaps
What the gov will do is stop the spares for our combis, so within 10 years you have to buy heat pumps.
The same with electric cars forced into buying them it's a form of communist gov.
Have you noticed the gov implement laws that nobody wants, like Boris concreting over shale gas then digging it up.
Same with oil shut down the rigs oooppps open them up again.
@@frederickbowdler8169 Thats so wrong mate. I have infloor heating with a 300 meter energywell and 10 kw heatpump.
Very informative, feels like we’re going back in time having a room dominated by huge radiators…
why do people hate big rads? I love them!
@@UrbanPlumbers Can't do much else with a wall covered in radiator. Can't put a shelf there, a cupboard a picture, wouldn't necessarily even want to put a chair in front of it. Probably fine for people with giant mansions but for the average, tiny UK home it's ridiculous. I'd like to see a domestic install of a High Temp Heat Pump (yes I know they are not as efficient but still more so than a simple immersion heater).
@@SardiPax many years ago when I was an adobe builder in New Mexico I built large vertical radiators into the walls of some homes to give out heat to spaces both sides of the wall. Built in rather than hung on is a possible solution. This is where joined up thinking between home designers, home builders and specialised trades ought to come together. I first saw the heat both sides concept used in Quarry Hill flats in Leeds. They were built in the 1930's. They also had a waste disposal system that carried organic waste from the sink to a large communal boiler to be burnt to heat water. In eastern Europe power Stations don't have cooling towers they send the hot water to heat apartments and other buildings or to aid industrial processes. A lot of good ideas lost to make individual houses more profitable for the builder.
Sadly I think Roger has an axe to grind with heat pumps and I don't know why.
Poor install by companies who just want sales have a lot to answer for sadly and the industry I think needs tighter regulation to make sure installers are fully informed, full calculations are done before install and the customer is aware that it won't be effective if they don't have the whole system optimised.
I think Roger has a point, of sorts. He’s never said heat pumps never work, but how much would that install have cost? And how ugly are those TWO massive radiators in that lounge? And how much will the energy bills be?
@@SisterAbdullahX I estimated that install at £18k Inc VAT, UP said closer to £20k so yeah, it's a huge undertaking which many people can't afford, especially when the Heat Pump is £4k alone that's the price of most full installs for a standard home for a gas central heating system in a typical British property.
Then you have the issue that even if you use weather comp and design for 50c, older people want higher surface temps and don't want fan coils pushing the air around to make up for the lower flow temps. Honestly I love fitting HP, Gas, not fond of oil and LPG just causes me to go home stinking but I feel like AC and mechanical ventilation would be better and having worked in america where many house builders are now trying to build passive houses on a commercial scale I feel the UK should be doing the same.
After all if you don't have to consume any energy to keep a property at a comfortable level you've already saved the carbon footprint of building the property and don't have to worry about running costs which in turn means more spending money for home owners to put back into the economy. Perhaps that's just a little too logical for government though.
@@effervescence5664 Yep. I can see why HeatGeek is pushing Air Source (💷💷💷…) but the overwhelming majority of British home owners just aren’t going to go for a system like that. It’s far too expensive and intrusive.
@@SisterAbdullahX Yes it's not a large percentage of our business at all. We thought it would be hence we invested into the courses and even have a guy that's done stuff with Heat Geek. But for domestic it just hasn't been, commercial for the last 2 decades it has been a decent investment but it has for the most part been a tax deductible eco benefit to those institutions and companies we've installed for. Home owners on the other hand can't claim it all back or knock it off their personal tax, and some in older solid wall properties or ones of significant enough cultural interest can't have heat pumps at all. Insulation where permitted and a well designed gas installation will serve them far better until such a time that a wall hung heat pump can be produced.
The advantage of course of a heat pump is that you can combine it with solar and battery storage to reduce the running costs over time. But I take your point it is a bug chunk compared to a new Combi boiler. Although even Combi systems would benefit from bigger rads and lower temps. I believe there are finally some regs coming in that new builds should be low temp which will help things.
Ive consistently argued now that all new builds should be as energy independent as possible. Solar, batteries, heat pump and eV charge points as standard wherever possible. Reduces the load on the grid over time and reduces fossi fuel usage which will ultimately lower electricity costs. Passive house standards should be adopted too we're way behind the curve in that respect. And we need to look at ways to get costs of retrofitting this stuff down. Economies of scale will help eventually.
I have a question for the experts. My current 24kw combi boiler is set to 58 deg c. We are very satisfied with the room temperatures after an hour of the CH being turned on. Does this mean there is a good chance we can get away with just a ASHP and the rads and pipework are OK? Its currently 22mm pipework
it depends on the property heat loss. If you set your flow on the boiler to 60 and you are acheiveing 21 inside when it is -2 outside then you may be close with the radiator sizes. Pipework will depend on the heat loss though. How big is your property in m2 and when was it built? Is 24kW a combi boiler?
@@UrbanPlumbers yes its valiant ecotec combi 24kw or 22kw not sure. Its a 4 bedroom 1930s build. There's no cavity wall but we now have triple glazed windows which made a big difference. Just done a edit the boiler temp is set to 58deg and I'm sure it could be set lower and run for longer. We usually turn heating on just 2 or 3 hours at a time 2 or 3 times a day when its 0 degrees outside. The inside is never 21deg its 19 deg which we actually like.. im actually in London
@@cooliocrib4409 4 bed with triple glazing and roof insulation should be below 10kW heat loss. Althogh heat pump may work on your current radiators it would not be very efficienct to run it like that.
The bigger the radiaotrs the lower flow temperature required and higher efficeincy. There is no running away from large rads, unless you install UFH or have a very well insulated house.
The fact that you can drop flow to 58 when it is 0 outside means that heat pump would work fine in your property, but you may still have to upgrade pipework (usually just primary piepwork), install new hot water cylinder and change some radiators or move them around, etc.
@@UrbanPlumbers i remember watching a video some months back. You are in London right? How far is NW4 from you?
Retro fit heat pumps aren’t great or efficient. Only way a heat pump works effectively is with underfloor heating and the house has been built with a heat pump in mind.
I dread to think how much this install cost.
He mentioned in his comments previously £15 - £20K
Hey Simon, as usual absolutely stunning install. The work is a true master piece and I know you installed this to someone spec. However shame about the design and products that have been used here , the radiators are truly and shockingly ugly I would sooner have a poster of the elephantman on the wall. Cost for this was probably £25k if this is what the government is encouraging people to have ? We urgently need a new government !!!(I know of an estate that had these fitted and thus far winter cost £1500.00 per quarter , they have to be left on 24/7 .... this size probably £2000.00 per quatre...) And finally I hope who the person who sold this to the customer advised them that , after the install there's no going back to there gas boiler...cuz that will be the next thing this incompetent government will make law...people you have been warned ⚠️ Don't be fooled.......a master piece of workmanship Simon as always 😉
Even ths govt is not going to mandate a return to gas boilers. Even conservative (apart from the morons in the 'Net Zero Scrutiny Group') recognise that gas is on the way out.
£2000 a quarter, so at £0.15p a unit (we're talking the past here), that's 13,000KWh of input, now assuming you're getting an utterly atrocious CoP of 2x that means 26,000kWh of heat, lets times it by 2 for the whole of winter. 52,000 kwh of thermal input into that building for space heating. Now my 80's three bed semi requires 10,000 kwh for space heating each year - so I don't think so.
What a massive mess of pipes and pumps. There’s NO way I’d ever have this nonsense. I have a single Combi gas boiler in the kitchen behind a single cupboard door. All the pipes are hidden. But thirds heat pumps take up way too much space and multiple rooms.
If I wanted low level heat 24/7 in warm weather I might consider a heat pump but I need heating from 6-11pm in the middle of winter and the technology is not there yet?
What do you mean technology is not there yet? Ever heard of a fireplace? Eco friendly and cheap. Get one.
Sorry for being negative but heat pumps aren't worth the money. Winter time, non stop 5kW power consumption from 9KW ASHP. This business is for people who have easy money and they don't know what to do with it. I was saving for years, now I regret my decision. Shame that I didn't think twice before the purchase.
We have been through this Rafal - your install is a mess and clearly installed by people who did not know what they were doing! Exactly what I say in the video.
I offered to help but I do not think you were interested in having the system put right.
Great vid. I wish that you had said something about how this house, looks like a traditional Victorian, was insulated. I believe that this is where the system succeeds or fails.
1870 house, roof 100mm insulation. That’s it.
Thank you for replying!
@@UrbanPlumbers then why on earth are these systems being installed without insulation being prior taken care of?!?
@@britexpat_l33t 1870s house, good chance inside and outside is listed so they probably couldn't insulate the walls, only floor void and roof. Then relying on the thickness of the walls as thermal mass and high enough R value to cope. Not ideal but unfortunately this is one of the stumbling points of much of the UK housing stock. Solid wall terraced houses which can't have outside insulation fitted or internal due to room size limitations or listed/ conservation status, and those that have had insulation fitted if not fitted with a vapour barrier have bricks that basically start turning back to clay in some cases.
This is going to be very easy to break by someone who doesn’t have such extensive knowledge as this fella.
Class installation,I'm a commercial engineer but find your channel very informative,keep up the great work,wish all engineers were so thorough.
thank you for watching!
It probably works fine but it looks like a maintenance nightmare. There's half a billion parts to that system and unfortunately the end product while technically neat is incredibly ugly from an aesthetic standpoint. Why not just do forced air? Each room can have its own thermostat and the whole system would just cost 5k installed. Not to mention the house could be cooled too.
I run a hybrid heat pump and it’s awesome! I have gas as the backup heat when the temps get too low. Heat pumps don’t dry the air out which is nice.
Looks hugely expensive compared to an efficient gas fired boiler.
So? We're long past the point where all fossil fuel use has to stop.
We're already past the point where we're going to need to actively capture CO2 from the atmosphere of we want to avoid catastrophic environmental damage.
@@MostlyPennyCat so how do you know that? Suggest you widen your reading and look at the science a bit more closely.
@@terrid6349
How do I know that we need to stop using fossil fuels?
Are you serious?
@@MostlyPennyCat Well how do you know? You can’t stop the use of fossil fuels. Don’t expect much to change either until we see some fusion successes at ITER hopefully.
Really appreciate the time you've taken to put this together. I'm scraping together the pennies to take the heat geek courses - ACS resits this year/van power steering failing/children... Knowledge always pays in the end. Thanks again.
I'm hoping the Gov will throw a large wad of money at it. Its going to need a combined effort - Insulation, Heat pumps etc, its too much for the average working person to shill out.
FYI there is an accredited heat pump training course just released by the CIPHE
@@jameslewis875 What’s the qualification called? If your thinking about the new CIPHE 2-day low temp heating design course then that is just a pre-requisite for the heat pump course (it’s replaced the energy efficiency course).
Heat geek is by far the best course out there and I have been to a lot of so called heat pump training courses. CIPHE have new low temperature heating course. I have seen the book for it. Let’s see if it’s any good.
@@UrbanPlumbers Thanks. It has to be challenging to be worth anything. I'm just a little worried whether challenging will be 'recognised' as better or whether a course of training taking a minimum AM unt of time and effort will be 'enough'. Either way, if I am fitting low temp heating I want to be confident that I understand the many variables as best I can.
Looks like these people should have put some insulation in too and saved a bit on the fairly epic install.
And 22mm copper to the kitchen taps? Doesn't that mean a long wait for some warm water to turn up?
Interesting to see the UFH just being inlined with the rest. I was hoping to do that but not done the sums yet to check the flow rates.
Nice explanation of what you've done here. Oh and I was just admiring that nice set of bends before you mentioned it. Always a sign of quality work :-)
The best to use a heat pump with under or infloor heating. Underfloor heating typically uses water at 37/40 deg C . It takes more energy to raise water to 70C, or the new 55C, raiditor temp, than 37C, floor heating temp. Which means either a major renovation or new builds. Because of the cost it's probably better to finance it in the original mortgage, so new build.
Or just get an air-air unit. It is a wall mounted box that blows hot air. Any use of liquid heat transfer will blow up the cost.
I have a heat pump system I installed myself. I have multiple heat pumps and multiple registers, wall and ceiling mount. It heats and cools excellent. I can cool my house when it’s 100f outside for a dollar or two a day depending on how much we’re home
This is an excellent video and explains very well why people think heat pumps don't work
They work at great expense and inconvenience backed up with an electric boiler!
This hasn't taken off in the states. But mini-split and VRF systems have found a market and foothold in certain scenarios. As the issues with quality and ridiculous cost and lead time on parts improves, this will get better I think.
But in the states we have so much land. So it's not very convincing to use a VRF system over a tried and true boiler/chiller for commercial/industrial buildings when you have the room for it. Even going with all packaged and split systems is preferable.
If you're gonna run hundreds of feet of pipe, filling it with cheap water seems preferable to expensive refrigerant.
Edit: single and multi-zone mini-splits are actually pretty reliable. Can be annoying to work on when they're not but it's not often they break down. We love using these for smaller server rooms on our commerical accounts.
A fantastic display of plumbing at its best the whole thing is beautiful to look at from a technical point of view but your home is looking like a water treatment plant and the cost is astronomical so my question would be WHY.
co2 emissions?
@@UrbanPlumbers I am glad you are wealthy enough to spend this amount on what will in a few years prove to be the next big scandal like Diesel cars are today, unfortunately only 5.1% of the UK population can afford to shop at Waitrose the other 94.9% will be forced to sleepwalk into this green nightmare mind you it is still a lovely bit of Plumbing.
@@jimh5031 In Scandinavia we have been building houses with triple glazing and insulation, also what i would call with a under roof. Also sealed doors.
Here in Australia they are all extras, for a crazy price.
Funny how when things become standardized and perform a function well, it pays to invest.
I have a 32kw hoval heat pump here in Switzerland. Works great. Quieter, more reliable, cheaper to run and better heat production than my old oil boiler. Doesn’t smell and needs no maintenance. And all our electricity is green. I guess the UK is too humid for them and the houses too badly insulated. Admittedly it did cost 80k to install so it’s not a pure cost consideration.
Thank you for your comment.
Any mechanical device requires maintenance. Air to anything heat pumps need regular cleaning, change of oil and fridgerement, plus any parts that stop working. I would still advice to have wood fired boiler as a back up to heat pump case of power failure, its just smarter to hate options and electricity provided is not ever guaranteed, otherwise there would not be clauses in the power company agreement.
Also sorry to burst your bubble, but there isint such thing as green electricity....Solar farms create dangerous waste that only few companies are attempting to recycle, but they are taking huge risk top of material priceses being high, so if those go down that business is done for with out government subsidies witch are only reason why other "green" projects in general can even operate. Wind farms are inefficient, wasteful and create even more dangerous waste we really cannot recycle at the moment, so nether of those two cant be called green, or cheap since that energy as is, is very expensive, but moment you realize its so "cheap" only because government subsidies you realize its unsustainable. Only the classic lets milk from the naïve populous using this green ideology. Hydro would be best of those 3 methods, but it tied to geography, changes the eco system and looking for instance how things are in China, causes severe issues how water works. Of course climate change, crisis or what ever is the newest scare term is said to cause the Chinas droits in south and floods in north that use to be wet in south and dry in north, but maybe if you redirect whole major rivers that might have effect on how water works, specially when ground water has been over used and polluted in China.
Heat pumps are rather nifty little devices but 80K for install...what kind of mansion you have? Bit under 200m3 house stays warm with 5K including everything air to air pump and fire place does the harsh frost help when its efficiency drops around minus 20C.
@@Hellsong89 all hydro here. Never had a power failure but if I did I have a fireplace and plenty of chopped seasoned chestnut wood. It never drops below about minus 5 (in feb) and most of the year it’s above 12 at night. If all else fails I have a mountain home 2 hours away. But it seems unlikely it would ever get that bad. 40k was parts and equipment, 40k plumber, builder and electrician. The install was non trivial on the mountainside, required helicopter etc. house is about 300m^2 and 32kw is probably slightly oversized. 24 was borderline.
Nuts. completely nuts. Like a commercial plant room. And who wants those massive rads and ugly pipes in their rooms?
😂🤣 WTF , was the punter happy with those rads 😂🤣 you gotta be kidding.
I enjoy the content from UPlumb, HGeeks and Skillbuild . But this was really just an advert .
What roughly did the install cost and how much are the running costs ?
Joe public doesn’t want to know about COP figures on paper or kw/hr numbers , they want to know pound shilling and pence .
HOW MUCH ?
Too many people dancing around the cost issue.
I suspect that you are the best heating engineers. Most others would be a nightmare. Going from combi boilers to this is a giant step.
Many won't be able to do this.Not in the UK anyway.
@@foppo100 Problem is that there will be a considerable amount of people willing to play being an expert, and when the bill is paid and the system doesn't live up to its promise, they are long gone. Same happened years ago with companies installing plastic door frames, windows, etc. On the surface it looked like a job well done, until you find the installation flaws, that end up costing you even more in the end.
This presentation is excellent, and I make no criticism of the content, but my assessment of the big picture is that we will never have enough skilled experienced and honest people to address the huge scale of these changes.
When you have that many bulky components and that much pipe work in a domestic property, you have to ask the Roger questions.
These government green policies will lead to a massive bandwagon of incompetent charlatan entrepreneurs and ill trained salesmen/advisors/surveyors/installers.
The amount of road traffic movements needed to support piecemeal conversions like this will be colossal and this will be hidden/disregarded in the bigger arguments about overall savings to the country.
A decade from now, we will have an army of lawyers promoting claims against bad installations.
We’ve seen this all before.
Wherever there’s a green policy being enacted, there is an inherent conflict of interest.
In short, heat pumps have their place, but that is only a small and selective place in our existing infrastructure.
I wish I could be persuaded otherwise.
We have no choice but to move away from gas. How it’s done it’s a different question.
You make some good points.
All I can do is to promote correct and diligent practices needed for this technology to work correctly.
How do you do your heatloss calculations for a project like this?
using software - heat engineer or long hand calcs or a mixture of both
@@UrbanPlumbers Thanks!
I live in Colorado, and my grandparents' 6 year old heat pump works just fine. It's not designed for whole-home heating by any means, but it was barely any more expensive than an equivalent AC, and keeps their bedroom warm on spring and autumn nights far more efficiently than a resistive heater would. Saying that _they don't work_ is simply wrong, and makes me feel like you really just dislike them because you make a smaller profit margin from installing them. It would make far more sense to say that they are typically not the best solution specifically for whole-home heating.
I've never considered whole-home heat pump use since it gets super cold where I live, and it would be too big, but they make a great substitute for standard ACs.
Someone didn't watch the video. ^
@@trentoncarr I did watch the video. That doesn't excuse the title being a BLATANT LIE. If they don't work, and he installs them, then he is selling nonfunctional equipment, which he clearly isn't. I don't know why people have started allowing 2010-era explicit-lie clickbait to make a comeback, and I don't like it one bit. Think about how many people scroll past this video and add it to a list of confirmation biases. It's not good, at all.
@@specialopsdave He likes them a lot in the comments too. I think the title is just hardcore clickbait and is making the comments section pretty wild. lol
Nice video. Personally its too big a cost to the consumer. These installs are in semi/detached houses. How many high rise buildings are there in England alone? Theres no way heat pumps can be installed in these. We have used fan coils in N.Ireland for a long time and even though theyve been set to a great standard, we live in a generation were people are living longer and people feel the cold. Physicalogically (prob spelt wrong) when they touch the rad people expect it to be roasting hot. I think Hydrogen will win the race and heatpumps will replace oil burners in rural areas.
You have hit the nail on the head, we fit every type of heating under the sun and low surface temps on radiators are one of the biggest complaints from older customers, or even customers that had them fitted 10 years ago in their late 50's now in their late 60's are feeling cold. So we're ripping them out (supposed to have a 25 year working life) and fitting back a gas boiler in many instances.
The psychological impact is quite big when dropping to 50c or below, yet current water regulations in the UK limit hot water temperature to below 46c to prevent scolding, and even less in care homes and alike at 41-43c. Makes for amusing call outs when residents in care homes complain of luke warm water but our hands are tied by legislation.
Hydrogens a pipe dream. We’d be using it already if it made sense, the technology hasn’t changed in years
Also people need to see what a service entails, because believe me when i say this, its not 100 pound service haha. The fan unit alone on those models are well expensive. Also mice love heat and these things are outside. There will be a fair few callouts to chewed wiring i bet in the next few years.
@@Etacovda63 technology has changed as hydrogen is very flammable and we can now deal with it in a domestic environment. Its actually very expensive to produce grey/blue hydrogen and most created using methane gas, so why would of it took its place if it was already in situ lol. We need to act now as the north sea cant supply the demand we need and no more russia gas lol
@@Purebeltersteveprobably half the houses in nz have heat pumps, I’ve never once heard of mice eating heat pump wiring.
Amazing video, it would be nice if you could give us a ballpark figure of how much this installation cost, materials and labour. No need to break it down but just so we can gauge how much it cost to install a ASHP.
Really nice to see the Heat Geek Assure programe already up and live 👍🏼
10-15k
@@PooAAAA you’re having a laugh! That would barely cover materials!
This would be an expensive example of a heat pump installation, with the cylinder in the cellar there’s a lot of extra labour involved and a £700 prv pump
The heat pump alone looks to be a Grant Aerona32 10kw model, the tank, pipework, llh, controls, prv pump, insulation, radiators;
£4,000
£1200
Unknown amount of pipework but allow at least £1000
£500
£500
£800 prv pump
£1000 pipe insulation
£2000 (12x radiators)
£1000 radiator valves (estimated)
Total materials £11,000 + London labour cost for potentially a week 2 people x 5 days £4000 or there about.
Total estimated cost £18,000 Inc VAT
@@effervescence5664 In other words, fk that.
It's really starting to p1ss me off how any videos showing ASHPs don't go through the economics. How can anyone have the debate if we don't know the facts.
Need to know installation cost, pre and post running costs, maintenance costs and expected lifetime.
As ever, an excellent video Szymon. Well explained, a great install, really professional.
It's strange seeing a job I've seen in real life on TH-cam. Thanks for showing me around.
Hi Gary. It was a pleasure to meet you and hopefully we can do some project together soon.
@Urban Plumbers I look forward to it 🖖
Hi. Just wondering what is the power usage of a heat pump. Is a 10 kw unit using 10 kw per hour .Or is there a way to compare oil burner as an 1 gallon jet per hour. And as with oil were i can put it on for 2 hours or do you have to leave a heat pump on all the time and let the stats cut in and out
no, heat pumps are rated by heat output, not by electrical input, you can check the spec sheet of the unit, and either it'll show the max wattage or amps - either as a max rating or fuse size (which you can multiply by voltage to get watts)... As a rule of thumb the max draw is about 50% of the rated heat output, however, this isn't what the heat pump will be running at most of the time, and that will be lower when set up correctly. Even with an oil boiler you are (in most cases) using more oil having it running for 2 hours a day only vs having it trickle heat in at a lower flow temperature, with a heat pump that saving is even more pronounced. Heat pumps don't use a thermostat in the typical fashion - as they make it more inefficient, instead they are set up with weather compensation - like a gas boiler (and probably oil boiler) can. Where it adjusts the flow temperature based on the outside temperature to target a set indoors temperature. That isn't to say you can't use it in a way that is controlled by a thermostat, you totally can, but generally it's going to work out more expensive, unless your house is completely vacant most of the time.
What's the COP for your 50degree design temp at 2 degrees outside?
This one was designed to 45
New build: underfloor heating and well insulated, go for it. Retro fit old house: radiators and drafts, it's too problematic. What happens with your very accurate flow settings after a few years of neglect and calcium build up. Just watching you sets my head spinning with all the complexities of such an install.
Annual servicing?
That is why airconditioning heating is great alternative, because you don't have to care for dependencies in the radiators etc
@@UrbanPlumbers Thats it, but everyone wants things to just work forever. Just look at all the uncleaned gutters and downpipes, people not servicing their cars every year. No one takes care of anything, just buy cheap and throw away sadly.
Awesome to see your company doing good honest work, keep it up!
@@roland9367 The unit cost Air to Air heat pumps seems alot cheaper the mono block air to water heat pumps, & thats before you buy the radiators. wonder why?
Love seeing a quality install, however I still have my gripes there’s no way combi slingers will install them to this standard which is a shame!
For sure, the industry had had it too easy for the last 20 years.
Yep, that’s the uphill struggle we face now. Heat geek to the rescue?
Honestly agree
Combis are incredibly easy to fit
I wouldnt have a clue with these systems
You just wait until the likes of boxt start flogging heat pumps and get the home owners to do their own survey and then pay their combi slingers £750 to fit them 🙈
@@griffithsheating your absolutely right there!