I have finally published my design calculations, which you see in this video. Please let me know if you can spot any mistakes, as I did not have time to go through the numbers. www.urbanplumbers.co.uk/design-files-for-vaillant-arotherm-heat-pump-installation/
i really respect how transparent and generous you're being. you're not afraid of people stealing work from you. which you shouldn't be! your videos like this make it clear that you're excellent - you should raise your prices! but such generous videos will also raise the standard of installs across the country, which is what we really need.
You made a good point there. Its good to have the right motives for the industry as it has long lasting impacts. You can grab your money and run with only that in mind or you can aim to change the game. Sure the money will follow
If these concepts aren't included in the official qualifications you have to start to wonder what the value of the qualifications are and the purpose of the accreditation bodies are. Great video
These fundamentals were pretty much all included in nvq L3 when I did it in the 90's. The problem is that it got forgotten as nobody used it daily when fitting high temp boilers after college.
Cool man. I'm a Kiwi Plumber in Germany getting my Plumbing Qualifications recognised. I had a bit of experience in Maintenance Plumbing in High-rise buildings in NZ. So I was shoved into the Heating group of tradesman. It's been two years of a reasonably steep learning curve.... All of what you said is pretty standard here and now a requirement for any new installation. But sadly they still want thermostat valves on every room to get government funding and bloody buffers. Cool to see it all put together like that in a video. From Thursday I have my Digital Heating Craftsman exam. That's 3 days planning a house with heating and Plumbing, heat loss etc Then a quoting it..... Anyway thanks for sharing, real awesome to see someone proud of what they do and work at the standard of the professionals we all should be. Cheers
@@UrbanPlumbers that was not the question, let’s stay with the subject here , can you or not regulate different temperatures in different rooms without a actuator?
@@deshte by calculating the actual heat needed for that room. To maintain that temp. Then adjust the heating surfaces to provide that amount of energy at the lowest flow temp you can. (Tighter laying of underfloor, more flow through the underfloor, or bigger radiator) Its true you lose immediate adjustment. But save a tone of energy. 20% mixing loss I a buffer on its own. Then electrical energy for extra pumps etc.
@@ecclesheat so for a new house , on top of the slab you can put 10 cm of XPS as isolation , in the room where you want more heat after calculation you can put the underfloor heating with the space between runs at 10 cm using 17mm pipe and you will increase the flow . Of course no buffer for heating. What about using a buffer or something else for hot water? This is in a plain language. Thanks
Fantastic video. I'm designing my own system and had already come to the conclusion that pipework design was critical to achieve the desired COP. Your expert opinion validates my research.
Notification urban plumber has uploaded, me here we go again, rubbing my hands together and wow what a brilliant video. I was thinking the other day heat geek should do a module where we have to do this from start to finish, i think that would be brilliant. You upload something similar. As always Simone you truly are an unbelievable engineer and im hooked. Thanks bud for sharing 🙏
Hi just wondered whether you are still releasing the design files for the installtion? Really interested in the detail for this installation to help improve my knowledge. Thanks for all sharing your knowledge great videos.
I criticized you for "lets guess the heat loss" on a previous youtube, you have redeemed yourself for explaining how critical an accurate heat loss calculation is for sizing heat emitters, sizing connecting pipework, selecting the correct water pump and ultimately the correct heat source (heat pump). Time well spent to get it right, and actually with the apps now available, not very difficult to do. Well done. The quality of your work is always evident.
Very great video as always, interesting bit on qualification side, I’ve seen ‘dumbing down’ of qualifications and abilities all my life from vehicle, caravan, and building trades. Even in the last few years the competency levels for basic electrical work ,in the leisure sector, have fallen from a four day intensive course to a couple of hours online. It’s really bad that for the few people like yourself who demonstrate their better ability, you don’t get recognition that’s deserved, with the exception of satisfied customers of course. Unfortunately much of our industries are biased towards cheap, quick , and get out. Thanks for what you do 😊😊
You are a truly inspiration for every one in our industry.I am a heating engineer, but not to this level yet and people like you are the reason to make me want to become a real pro.I just finished the heat geek course last week , but I am still reviewing the information until it sinks properly because all of it is new to me.Do you mind sharing what is the app that you are using for heat loss and also if you can recommend what is the best source book for U values that I can get ? I want to start practicing doing heat loss calculations on some family friends to prepare myself. Many thanks and keep up the good work !
Great video Szymon as you say the top 1% of installers all do this. Hopefully that percentage will continue to expand until it's the norm rather than the exception. Thankfully the resources and training is available to those who wish to learn.
I'd agree with him and his working practices being in the top 1%, not criticising his work at all, but I'd guess a job like this must also be only affordable for the top 1% too. I think the real issue is that most people simply couldn't afford this installation, and that's where standards lessen, to match the market. At a guess, I'd think this installation must have been something around the £15,000-£20,000 mark?
@@johntisbury that too, in that early adopters are also enthusiastic to learn and willing to tolerate any teething issues along the way. I do think there will be big issues when heat pumps are being fitted in places that didn't really want them, I.e. council houses etc, because I guarantee people will insist on only running it for an hour a day no matter how much you tell them that's not the most efficient way.
I love your videos! Currently arriving close to the right end of a long deep retrofit project of a 100m2 property with just underfloor heating.I've done a heat loss calculations of the fabric of the building myself to be 2kw (not including air change,but there will be mvhr).Any designs I get for the heatpump system all include buffer tanks and zoning.When you explain it should be so much simpler with an open system!
When you see the difference between industry mass installation figures, and those from the more educated plumbers who are taking the time and doing the training, you can see why these videos, from yourself and HeatGeek and similar, are so very important. I do believe this level of training should be the normal. If they can't do it, then they shouldn't be installing it. Been off the tools for some years now, but I now look at who is trained this way and who isn't, and suggest folks do likewise.
I agree - this should all be basic knowledge. Industry has been dumbed down for years. Pluming is a skilled job in both manual and theoretical sense. We need to change the perception of heating installers as just pipe fitters.
Nice to see more MLCP going in, it’s great stuff… The Henco -to-copper adapters seem the nicest to use from those that are on the market. Universal jaw compatibility too (U, TH)
I am learning a lot from your videos and it is proving very helpful when getting quotes in for replacing my gas combo-boiler with a heat pump. One thing that was recently mentioned, that I haven't seen before, was having a monobloc heat pump running a water /anti-freeze mixture in a loop to a heat exchanger rather than circuit going directly to the heating or hot water coil. I was told this was due to living in Northumberland it was to prevent freezing. I have not seen this on any videos before and don't know if it is needed or how it may affect the heat pump efficiency. I would welcome your views. Thanks
@@UrbanPlumbers Trace heating is another option, but only if the electrical power is supplied from an uninterruptible power supply capable of supplying the trace heating for a long period. I agree that AFVs are the most reliable and energy-efficient way of protecting monobloc heatpumps.
Szymon, would you be able to a quick tutorial on how you setup your pipework in the brackets with the insulation in position and also how you then insulate the pipes afterwards?
I'm doing the Heat Geek course to ensure that when my ASHP gets installed in my new build, it will be spec'ed correctly. Also, when I did my Engineering Degree 30+ years ago the SI units was Kn/m2 not Pascals. not quite easily to convert when 1bar = 101.4 Kpa. We only used Pascals for air pressure in ventilation. It's getting a feel of using large numerical values. Like having the feel and understanding of MPH speed and having to deal with KPH.
You are not the first customer to do HG course just to make sure the installation is correct. It's a bit of an overkill, but sadly this is the reality we face at the moment.
@@UrbanPlumbers true. A big local installer with years of experience and amazing reviews happily quoted me £20k for a 9kW system in my home that I'm now pretty sure is safely under 4.5kW max. If it weren't for Heat Geek and videos like yours I probably wouldn't have known better.
@@UrbanPlumbers Is there any chance there will be a course that will cater for home owners, specifically so that they have the knowledge needed to make sure there installation is correct?
@ 7:09 why you don’t use Esbe 3way valve? I know you like them + you are not a low budget plumber … Only the price is you’re reason ? Or they are other reasons like switch time ?
Excellent work! Could you please describe if laminar vs turbulent flow makes any difference? I heard that if flow is less than 1.2L/min in the UFH loop, there is no more turbulence inside the pipe.
Very nice job, and detailed explanation! How can you measure/estimate the length of the existing underfloor heating pipework if you have no plans for that? It seems also crucial to define the correct pump.
A Thermal camera might work in this siutation. If access under the floor is available, even through small holes, an endoscopic camera might also work. It would be worth taking the time to map any existing pipework as accurately as possible.
Amazing video as always, I learn something new every single time I watch one of your productions! Do you find that the internal bore of the flexi hoses varies from brand to brand? I have found some have extremely poor internal size despite appearing to be the correct product externally. Is there a brand you normally use? Thank you
Encouraged by your excellent video, I have started to calculate the pressure loss in my index circuit. The method to calculate this for pipework is well documented, but I cannot find any figures for the actual heat pump (12kW Gen 6 Samsung) or the 600 x 1400 K3 radiator. Where do you go to get these sort of values to get the total pressure loss? Thanks.
Syzmon another excellent video in all respects and pitched perfectly for either those in the industry or interested consumers. I note this system featured in the video is not on the heat pump monitoring site yet - does that take a while to feed through?
@@UrbanPlumbers the snapshot shows as per your link, but the other site is not showing in table format with other installations (There are four of your installations showing in the table).
In cold weather the ASHP may freeze if its working hard. Wigh no buffer where does it draw heat from when it reverses if there is no extra volume in the form of a low loss header or buffer? Having said that that im not sure if you design a buffer vessrl under the hot water storage as per old school???
Thanks for this it helps further my ability to consider what my installer should or should not be doing . When you do heat loss calc what assumptions do you make about insulation , is it referenced to the minimum requirements at the time of construction plus what the home owner advises as upgrade etc ?
@@UrbanPlumbers Please! Can you cover situations where, for whatever reason, the radiators can't be upgraded to work at the same low flow temperatures as the UFH.
Out of curiosity, do you calculate pressure loss of individual fittings or add a % ontop of pipework resistance? Amazing video as always, doing tge industry proud 👏
Szymon, I have learnt a lot with this amazing channel. Any idea when we might see the “link to the design files”? Thanks for sharing so much of your knowledge.
Thanks for this really helpful video and so generous. Your work looks fantastic. It looks like you use the pump curve for the 3.5 and 5kw Arotherm models rather than the 7kW version, giving 40kpa rather than 44kpa at 1200 l/hr. Is that right? Or is the difference negligible?
What do you think to small bore pipework (10mm copper )and upsizing rads for heat pump lower heat temp, is this something you would straight away say it needs upgrading?
Another question if I may please. I can see the Tee joint splitting the flow pipework towards the first floor radiators and ground floor underfloor heating. You also mentioned that there is no blending valve on the underfloor circuit. Assuming that radiators and UFH manifolds are on separate zones with their individual thermostats, how is the design protecting the UFH from high temperatures when there is demand from both zones? Unless your design flow temperature is perhaps 45 degrees or low enough for both zones? Thank you
@@UrbanPlumbersI see, nice and simple. Did you need to upgrade radiators for 35C flow temperature or were the originals still able to produce enough output to meet design heat loss.
Is that 32mm OD or ID or outside diameter or inside diameter? Maybe some 2 to 3 mm thick copper pipe would help retain the heat. Copper is a good heat conductor copper pipe all the way
Another great video and a bit of an eye opener regarding pipe sizing. Thank you for taking the time to do it. Also, X2 anti freeze valves? So is that official now? Vaillant wants two AF.
Heat loss calculations - one by myself, one by Octopus and next week one by 'Heat Geeks'. We have a MVHR system - it reduces the ventialtion heat loss by about 70%. Should be interseting to see if they take the MVHR into account - Octopus didn't.
Will the airconditioning system be conflicting with the heat pump in the background and will this affect scop performance of your installation. Great 👍 video
I believe it should not, as air con will be used in summer to cool - so output gonna be heat on outside & it should come up, and heat pump only heat hot water time to time - so it will affect air con a bit negatively.
Great video, very informative. If your calculations show a need for 28mm pipe - say between the heat source and the cylinder, and the fittings on the boiler are 22mm, what do you do ?
Short distance of smaller diameter doesn’t matter. If you need 28mm then you use 28mm no matter what connections you have on a boiler or heat pump. Having said that to use 28mm on a boiler you need around 40kW heat loss. I have seen a lot of the biggest houses in my area - not a single one was even close to 40kW heat loss. Doesn’t stop people installing 40kW in flats.
Thanks for your videos. I have a 7kW Vaillant aerotherm with a 40l buffer in our small bungalow. SCOP is below 3 (3.5 for this May). I assume that the ASHP is oversized. HOwever I also notice that the delta T (as shown on the control unit) is only usually around 1°C. As I understand, the water is just pushed through the buffer too fast, so that it cannot lose enough energy (ASHP~1205 l/h, buffer circuit pump at lowest setting). Could the 7kW unit work without the buffer (or have it in series as a volumiser only, rather than as a buffer in parallel)? If there is resistance and the ASHP cannot push 1205l/h, would it still be happy as long as it is within the limits given in the manual (540l/h- 1205l/h)? And would the lower flow rate mean a greater delta T and perhaps better efficiency? I guess its not that simple... still hoping that I am not stuck with this bad efficiency and too big ASHP..
Sounds like you would be much better off getting rid of the buffer. Although 3.5 isnt terrible but most likely can be improved. Small bungalow most likely doesn’t need a 7kW unit.
Would be interesting if the system cycles a lot. And if you haven't done so, already try maximizing the volume through the heating circuit. So either getting rid of any thermostat or just opening them all.
@@UrbanPlumbers COP 3.5 was only for last week actually. COP for May 3.3, SCOP 2.5... so really not happy. The question is how to improve this. Replacing the large ASHP with a smaller one would be too expensive. Taking out the buffer should be OK I guess cost-wise, but would the same ASHP work in that scenario, i.e. could it work well with a lower flow than 1205l/h ? Pipework is all new. I don't think they did the calculations like you show in the video, but small house so perhaps not too complicated anyway?
@Felix-st2ue thanks, compressor hours/compressor starts = 1.5 h per start. (4113/2776). Building pump hours/starts= 11h per start (6279/589). If I understand correctly, that should be fine, i.e. not short-cycling? The flow temperatures are also usually very low as per heat curve 0.4. I have all radiators fully open (no UFH) and only weather compensation so no indoor thermostats. Could perhaps the reported yield figure be far off? Energy consumption by ASHP was 2400kWh per year; if I do some wishful thinking and assume that our heat use was actually around 8400kWh, then the SCOP would have been 3.5. The EPC estimate for our house is around 7500kWh/yr. Our gas use before was around 10,000 kWh/yr (combi boiler).
@pip1980 Well, it's not terrible but not exactly great either. You could try to increase the hysteresis a bit. That way, it should be running for longer but less often. But in the end, the buffer seems to be the issue here. What's interesting to me is that the heating circuit pump has only 50% more hours of runtime compared to the heatpump. But it has only a fraction of the starts... To me, that's an indicator that there should be room for improvement.
Hey, what do you think of residential MVHR systems. About to do a self build, approx 4000 sq ft and considering one as well as an air source heat pump system
Hi, enjoy your videos, quick question, how do you get on with extended warranties if not using glycol? Samsung requires a backup heater if no glycol, which you can only get from a buffer.... .what if you don't need a buffer?? Catch 22
6:42 How do you decide flow rate. Is this something you start with or is it dependant on delts T and total heatloss? I'm a bit confuse as to what the starting point would be when designing a system i.e. do you start with deltaT ?
Can you please help me understand how did you get the pressure drop on the diverter valve calculated at 1KPa? A KVs of 12.8 means you get 12.8m3/h flow rate at 1 bar pressure drop (100KPa). Your design flow rate is 1.25m3/h so shouldn’t the pressure drop be more like close to 0.1bar or 10KPa?
I think I know where you go wrong. Pressure loss is not a linear function of flow - so you cannot divide 12.8m3 ata 100kpa by 10 to get 1.28m3 pressure loss. With a doubling of flow you get 4 times more pressure loss in very simple terms.
When you look into it, it turns out to be very difficult to do cooling with an ASHP. Not impossible, most will have a cooling mode that will produce chilled water, but you need very careful design to ensure you don't get condensation where you don't want it. You will probably find that you need different emitters - e.g. fan coils that are specifically designed to capture the condensation. And fan coils are expensive! You also need to consider DHW requirements - if you don't, you might be asking the ASHP to chill water to 18C before then asking it to heat it up again to 45C+ for the DHW, and then chill it down to 18C. It could be very inefficient unless you design the system correctly. It's not a trivial task. A second ASHP for DHW could be part of the solution but this adds extra cost. The Vaillant AroStors are an interesting option for just DHW, so that the main heat pump only has to switch between heating and cooling a few times a year. Heat Geek should produce some training on Cooling with heat pumps, but it is a massive undertaking, and there isn't a great deal of customer deman yet due to the extra cost of adding the fan coil units. If climate change increases the severity fo heatwaves in the UK, it might become a more sought after skill.
37kW - FFS - I reckon no more than 10kW heat loss at -2C for a modernish house? Too quick off the mark -7kW Vaillant - that should be good up to 9kW when needed 😊
Sir your videos are excellent. I'm looking to change my career to plumber and heating engineer but cannot afford to fund my course. Could you please sign post me how to go about starting a self learning journey in terms of learning resources. Thanks. Mo
Is it cheating that you showed the heat pump being installed before asking what the heat loss is? 🤣 Single fan vaillant, and almost square, so it's the 7kW unit, so looking at between ~6 and ~8kw. I'm going to go with 6.8kW
It’s a shame you can’t put the AC below the heatpump as the ac will produce hot air and the heat pump will produce cold air or at least that’s what I suspect.
@@normanboyes4983what happens when they are running the heat pump to heat up hot water then? That is the time when heat pumps run at the lowest COP and have the most cold air output from the heat pumps heat exchanger. The warmer that is the better the COP. watch a bit of heat geek experiment when they put reflectors to use sunlight to create more heat.
You should take more care of yourself and not reply to us late in the night (Even if we all apreciate It)i, try to not ruin your health. You look tired + I Think your Family needs you too, now and in the long run … 😊
I think it just highlights how little effort has been put into most heating design. Just running any old pipework diameter around and then oversizing a boiler to be on the safe side. Makes me wonder just how inefficient and wasteful most homes must be.
I have finally published my design calculations, which you see in this video. Please let me know if you can spot any mistakes, as I did not have time to go through the numbers.
www.urbanplumbers.co.uk/design-files-for-vaillant-arotherm-heat-pump-installation/
i really respect how transparent and generous you're being. you're not afraid of people stealing work from you. which you shouldn't be! your videos like this make it clear that you're excellent - you should raise your prices! but such generous videos will also raise the standard of installs across the country, which is what we really need.
You made a good point there. Its good to have the right motives for the industry as it has long lasting impacts. You can grab your money and run with only that in mind or you can aim to change the game. Sure the money will follow
If these concepts aren't included in the official qualifications you have to start to wonder what the value of the qualifications are and the purpose of the accreditation bodies are. Great video
These fundamentals were pretty much all included in nvq L3 when I did it in the 90's. The problem is that it got forgotten as nobody used it daily when fitting high temp boilers after college.
Excellent work! De-mystifying this is crucial for the future!
Thank you 🙏
Cool man. I'm a Kiwi Plumber in Germany getting my Plumbing Qualifications recognised. I had a bit of experience in Maintenance Plumbing in High-rise buildings in NZ. So I was shoved into the Heating group of tradesman. It's been two years of a reasonably steep learning curve.... All of what you said is pretty standard here and now a requirement for any new installation. But sadly they still want thermostat valves on every room to get government funding and bloody buffers. Cool to see it all put together like that in a video. From Thursday I have my Digital Heating Craftsman exam. That's 3 days planning a house with heating and Plumbing, heat loss etc Then a quoting it..... Anyway thanks for sharing, real awesome to see someone proud of what they do and work at the standard of the professionals we all should be. Cheers
If you want in the bathroom 24 degrees and in the bedroom 20 degrees, how you regulate the sistem without the actuator?
@deshte go and see a doctor if you need 24c
@@UrbanPlumbers that was not the question, let’s stay with the subject here , can you or not regulate different temperatures in different rooms without a actuator?
@@deshte by calculating the actual heat needed for that room. To maintain that temp. Then adjust the heating surfaces to provide that amount of energy at the lowest flow temp you can. (Tighter laying of underfloor, more flow through the underfloor, or bigger radiator) Its true you lose immediate adjustment. But save a tone of energy. 20% mixing loss I a buffer on its own. Then electrical energy for extra pumps etc.
@@ecclesheat so for a new house , on top of the slab you can put 10 cm of XPS as isolation , in the room where you want more heat after calculation you can put the underfloor heating with the space between runs at 10 cm using 17mm pipe and you will increase the flow . Of course no buffer for heating. What about using a buffer or something else for hot water? This is in a plain language. Thanks
Fantastic video. I'm designing my own system and had already come to the conclusion that pipework design was critical to achieve the desired COP. Your expert opinion validates my research.
Notification urban plumber has uploaded, me here we go again, rubbing my hands together and wow what a brilliant video. I was thinking the other day heat geek should do a module where we have to do this from start to finish, i think that would be brilliant. You upload something similar. As always Simone you truly are an unbelievable engineer and im hooked. Thanks bud for sharing 🙏
Thanks for watching !
Would love to see the calculations once you get around to sharing them. Great video as always!
Excellent Sir your best video so far, thank you for breaking it down so simply to understand- you’re a top man!
Hi just wondered whether you are still releasing the design files for the installtion? Really interested in the detail for this installation to help improve my knowledge. Thanks for all sharing your knowledge great videos.
I criticized you for "lets guess the heat loss" on a previous youtube, you have redeemed yourself for explaining how critical an accurate heat loss calculation is for sizing heat emitters, sizing connecting pipework, selecting the correct water pump and ultimately the correct heat source (heat pump). Time well spent to get it right, and actually with the apps now available, not very difficult to do.
Well done. The quality of your work is always evident.
I wish I could find someone as knowledgeable as you here in the Netherlands
Well explained professional. Hopefully one day we get to when all contractors will do proper calculations on every job they do.
Very great video as always, interesting bit on qualification side, I’ve seen ‘dumbing down’ of qualifications and abilities all my life from vehicle, caravan, and building trades. Even in the last few years the competency levels for basic electrical work ,in the leisure sector, have fallen from a four day intensive course to a couple of hours online.
It’s really bad that for the few people like yourself who demonstrate their better ability, you don’t get recognition that’s deserved, with the exception of satisfied customers of course. Unfortunately much of our industries are biased towards cheap, quick , and get out.
Thanks for what you do 😊😊
You are a truly inspiration for every one in our industry.I am a heating engineer, but not to this level yet and people like you are the reason to make me want to become a real pro.I just finished the heat geek course last week , but I am still reviewing the information until it sinks properly because all of it is new to me.Do you mind sharing what is the app that you are using for heat loss and also if you can recommend what is the best source book for U values that I can get ?
I want to start practicing doing heat loss calculations on some family friends to prepare myself.
Many thanks and keep up the good work !
Heat Engineer
Great video Szymon as you say the top 1% of installers all do this. Hopefully that percentage will continue to expand until it's the norm rather than the exception. Thankfully the resources and training is available to those who wish to learn.
I'd agree with him and his working practices being in the top 1%, not criticising his work at all, but I'd guess a job like this must also be only affordable for the top 1% too. I think the real issue is that most people simply couldn't afford this installation, and that's where standards lessen, to match the market. At a guess, I'd think this installation must have been something around the £15,000-£20,000 mark?
@@TheZippyMark agree 100%. It’s still early adopter territory for many. Mass market will soon bring volume will bring down pricing.
@@johntisbury that too, in that early adopters are also enthusiastic to learn and willing to tolerate any teething issues along the way. I do think there will be big issues when heat pumps are being fitted in places that didn't really want them, I.e. council houses etc, because I guarantee people will insist on only running it for an hour a day no matter how much you tell them that's not the most efficient way.
I love your videos! Currently arriving close to the right end of a long deep retrofit project of a 100m2 property with just underfloor heating.I've done a heat loss calculations of the fabric of the building myself to be 2kw (not including air change,but there will be mvhr).Any designs I get for the heatpump system all include buffer tanks and zoning.When you explain it should be so much simpler with an open system!
Great job UP. Your the best at what you do. You've single headedly raised the bar. Thanks for sharing.
When you see the difference between industry mass installation figures, and those from the more educated plumbers who are taking the time and doing the training, you can see why these videos, from yourself and HeatGeek and similar, are so very important. I do believe this level of training should be the normal. If they can't do it, then they shouldn't be installing it. Been off the tools for some years now, but I now look at who is trained this way and who isn't, and suggest folks do likewise.
I agree - this should all be basic knowledge. Industry has been dumbed down for years. Pluming is a skilled job in both manual and theoretical sense. We need to change the perception of heating installers as just pipe fitters.
Really Great....
Heating Engineers are so different to General Plumbers (Night & Day)
Nice to see more MLCP going in, it’s great stuff… The Henco -to-copper adapters seem the nicest to use from those that are on the market. Universal jaw compatibility too (U, TH)
yes, mlcp has it's place, especially pre insulated stuff. It is just so hard to get fittings from stock anywhere.
@@UrbanPlumbers There's a business opportunity there for someone.
I am learning a lot from your videos and it is proving very helpful when getting quotes in for replacing my gas combo-boiler with a heat pump. One thing that was recently mentioned, that I haven't seen before, was having a monobloc heat pump running a water /anti-freeze mixture in a loop to a heat exchanger rather than circuit going directly to the heating or hot water coil. I was told this was due to living in Northumberland it was to prevent freezing. I have not seen this on any videos before and don't know if it is needed or how it may affect the heat pump efficiency. I would welcome your views. Thanks
Not needed and will affect efficiency negatively. Use AFV instead.
@@UrbanPlumbers Trace heating is another option, but only if the electrical power is supplied from an uninterruptible power supply capable of supplying the trace heating for a long period. I agree that AFVs are the most reliable and energy-efficient way of protecting monobloc heatpumps.
Szymon, would you be able to a quick tutorial on how you setup your pipework in the brackets with the insulation in position and also how you then insulate the pipes afterwards?
Have a look at primary pro website, it’s all on there, very easy to
another excellent video, keep up the good work, learning more and more.
waiting for the design fils to do some calculations for myself.
Another cracking video mate, keep up the good work
thanks Hilton! See you at installer?
@@UrbanPlumbers yes Definitely mate 👍🏻
Just gained a sub from me 🤙🏻 I enjoy seeing and learning the other side of the coin industry.
Awesome, thank you!
When are you posting the calcs & drawings?
I'm doing the Heat Geek course to ensure that when my ASHP gets installed in my new build, it will be spec'ed correctly. Also, when I did my Engineering Degree 30+ years ago the SI units was Kn/m2 not Pascals. not quite easily to convert when 1bar = 101.4 Kpa. We only used Pascals for air pressure in ventilation. It's getting a feel of using large numerical values. Like having the feel and understanding of MPH speed and having to deal with KPH.
You are not the first customer to do HG course just to make sure the installation is correct. It's a bit of an overkill, but sadly this is the reality we face at the moment.
@@UrbanPlumbers true. A big local installer with years of experience and amazing reviews happily quoted me £20k for a 9kW system in my home that I'm now pretty sure is safely under 4.5kW max. If it weren't for Heat Geek and videos like yours I probably wouldn't have known better.
1 bar = 100 kpa 1 kn/m2 = 1 kpa, sorry
@@UrbanPlumbers Is there any chance there will be a course that will cater for home owners, specifically so that they have the knowledge needed to make sure there installation is correct?
Note we have a home owner course specifically for this.. no need to do the engineers course!
@ 10:00 I love MLCP pipe - It is not perfect but is my favorite pipe 😊
Thanks for another brilliant video can you tell me which high flow diverters you use please ? Keep it up the good work !
@ 7:09 why you don’t use Esbe 3way valve? I know you like them + you are not a low budget plumber …
Only the price is you’re reason ? Or they are other reasons like switch time ?
Can you reccomend some books for hydraulics? Preeferably online?
Excellent, as usual. Thanks.
Excellent work! Could you please describe if laminar vs turbulent flow makes any difference? I heard that if flow is less than 1.2L/min in the UFH loop, there is no more turbulence inside the pipe.
Very nice job, and detailed explanation!
How can you measure/estimate the length of the existing underfloor heating pipework if you have no plans for that? It seems also crucial to define the correct pump.
A Thermal camera might work in this siutation. If access under the floor is available, even through small holes, an endoscopic camera might also work. It would be worth taking the time to map any existing pipework as accurately as possible.
Amazing video as always, I learn something new every single time I watch one of your productions! Do you find that the internal bore of the flexi hoses varies from brand to brand? I have found some have extremely poor internal size despite appearing to be the correct product externally. Is there a brand you normally use? Thank you
Encouraged by your excellent video, I have started to calculate the pressure loss in my index circuit. The method to calculate this for pipework is well documented, but I cannot find any figures for the actual heat pump (12kW Gen 6 Samsung) or the 600 x 1400 K3 radiator. Where do you go to get these sort of values to get the total pressure loss? Thanks.
Thanks,Very informative
Syzmon another excellent video in all respects and pitched perfectly for either those in the industry or interested consumers. I note this system featured in the video is not on the heat pump monitoring site yet - does that take a while to feed through?
It should be, unless I forgot to register it
@@UrbanPlumbers the snapshot shows as per your link, but the other site is not showing in table format with other installations (There are four of your installations showing in the table).
@normanboyes4983 change 30 days to all on OEM. New installs are not visible as they are under 30 days old
@@UrbanPlumbers Got it thanks.👍
Great Video! When will you be putting a link to your workings up?
Glad you explained bespoke on this one…… and got it right! 😂😂😂
I did it for my biggest fan - Adam
He’s definitely big.
Yeah a can’t miss him
In cold weather the ASHP may freeze if its working hard. Wigh no buffer where does it draw heat from when it reverses if there is no extra volume in the form of a low loss header or buffer? Having said that that im not sure if you design a buffer vessrl under the hot water storage as per old school???
Thanks for this it helps further my ability to consider what my installer should or should not be doing .
When you do heat loss calc what assumptions do you make about insulation , is it referenced to the minimum requirements at the time of construction plus what the home owner advises as upgrade etc ?
Who trained this chap he is miles ahead of anybody we have in the UK.Which country is he from?
french. autodidact smartypants
Great video. The bit you don't discus is how you run radiators and UFH on same heat curve and how you balance this.
I will do a video on it in the winter
@@UrbanPlumbers Please! Can you cover situations where, for whatever reason, the radiators can't be upgraded to work at the same low flow temperatures as the UFH.
Good work
Thanks
Out of curiosity, do you calculate pressure loss of individual fittings or add a % ontop of pipework resistance?
Amazing video as always, doing tge industry proud 👏
Szymon, I have learnt a lot with this amazing channel. Any idea when we might see the “link to the design files”? Thanks for sharing so much of your knowledge.
I just need to find 5min to upload it to my website
Are the design files still on the way? Great video, just wahat I was looking for.
Thanks for this really helpful video and so generous. Your work looks fantastic.
It looks like you use the pump curve for the 3.5 and 5kw Arotherm models rather than the 7kW version, giving 40kpa rather than 44kpa at 1200 l/hr. Is that right? Or is the difference negligible?
Possibly - 4kpa difference so not much
Great video, nicely explained, what make 3 port diverter did you use?
Mut Meccanica
What do you think to small bore pipework (10mm copper )and upsizing rads for heat pump lower heat temp, is this something you would straight away say it needs upgrading?
Another question if I may please. I can see the Tee joint splitting the flow pipework towards the first floor radiators and ground floor underfloor heating. You also mentioned that there is no blending valve on the underfloor circuit. Assuming that radiators and UFH manifolds are on separate zones with their individual thermostats, how is the design protecting the UFH from high temperatures when there is demand from both zones? Unless your design flow temperature is perhaps 45 degrees or low enough for both zones? Thank you
Design temp is 35c and there is no zoning.
@@UrbanPlumbersI see, nice and simple. Did you need to upgrade radiators for 35C flow temperature or were the originals still able to produce enough output to meet design heat loss.
@NosyGR yeah had to upgrade all of them
Is that 32mm OD or ID or outside diameter or inside diameter?
Maybe some 2 to 3 mm thick copper pipe would help retain the heat.
Copper is a good heat conductor copper pipe all the way
You really are amazing, any chance you’d like to visit Ireland and sort out my heat pumps😊
Another great video and a bit of an eye opener regarding pipe sizing.
Thank you for taking the time to do it.
Also, X2 anti freeze valves? So is that official now? Vaillant wants two AF.
Yeah, been told off for using one
@@UrbanPlumbers does it affect the warranty on the ones where you have only fitted one AFV?
@@UrbanPlumbersCan you honestly imagine Vaillant honouring warranty for a frozen evaporator even with two anti freeze valves fitted?🤷♂️
Heat loss calculations - one by myself, one by Octopus and next week one by 'Heat Geeks'. We have a MVHR system - it reduces the ventialtion heat loss by about 70%. Should be interseting to see if they take the MVHR into account - Octopus didn't.
Will the airconditioning system be conflicting with the heat pump in the background and will this affect scop performance of your installation. Great 👍 video
I believe it should not, as air con will be used in summer to cool - so output gonna be heat on outside & it should come up, and heat pump only heat hot water time to time - so it will affect air con a bit negatively.
Great video, very informative. If your calculations show a need for 28mm pipe - say between the heat source and the cylinder, and the fittings on the boiler are 22mm, what do you do ?
Short distance of smaller diameter doesn’t matter. If you need 28mm then you use 28mm no matter what connections you have on a boiler or heat pump.
Having said that to use 28mm on a boiler you need around 40kW heat loss. I have seen a lot of the biggest houses in my area - not a single one was even close to 40kW heat loss. Doesn’t stop people installing 40kW in flats.
@@UrbanPlumbers thanks for your prompt reply.
Thanks for your videos. I have a 7kW Vaillant aerotherm with a 40l buffer in our small bungalow. SCOP is below 3 (3.5 for this May). I assume that the ASHP is oversized. HOwever I also notice that the delta T (as shown on the control unit) is only usually around 1°C. As I understand, the water is just pushed through the buffer too fast, so that it cannot lose enough energy (ASHP~1205 l/h, buffer circuit pump at lowest setting). Could the 7kW unit work without the buffer (or have it in series as a volumiser only, rather than as a buffer in parallel)? If there is resistance and the ASHP cannot push 1205l/h, would it still be happy as long as it is within the limits given in the manual (540l/h- 1205l/h)? And would the lower flow rate mean a greater delta T and perhaps better efficiency? I guess its not that simple... still hoping that I am not stuck with this bad efficiency and too big ASHP..
Sounds like you would be much better off getting rid of the buffer. Although 3.5 isnt terrible but most likely can be improved. Small bungalow most likely doesn’t need a 7kW unit.
Would be interesting if the system cycles a lot. And if you haven't done so, already try maximizing the volume through the heating circuit. So either getting rid of any thermostat or just opening them all.
@@UrbanPlumbers COP 3.5 was only for last week actually. COP for May 3.3, SCOP 2.5... so really not happy. The question is how to improve this. Replacing the large ASHP with a smaller one would be too expensive. Taking out the buffer should be OK I guess cost-wise, but would the same ASHP work in that scenario, i.e. could it work well with a lower flow than 1205l/h ? Pipework is all new. I don't think they did the calculations like you show in the video, but small house so perhaps not too complicated anyway?
@Felix-st2ue thanks, compressor hours/compressor starts = 1.5 h per start. (4113/2776). Building pump hours/starts= 11h per start (6279/589). If I understand correctly, that should be fine, i.e. not short-cycling? The flow temperatures are also usually very low as per heat curve 0.4. I have all radiators fully open (no UFH) and only weather compensation so no indoor thermostats. Could perhaps the reported yield figure be far off? Energy consumption by ASHP was 2400kWh per year; if I do some wishful thinking and assume that our heat use was actually around 8400kWh, then the SCOP would have been 3.5. The EPC estimate for our house is around 7500kWh/yr. Our gas use before was around 10,000 kWh/yr (combi boiler).
@pip1980 Well, it's not terrible but not exactly great either. You could try to increase the hysteresis a bit. That way, it should be running for longer but less often. But in the end, the buffer seems to be the issue here.
What's interesting to me is that the heating circuit pump has only 50% more hours of runtime compared to the heatpump. But it has only a fraction of the starts... To me, that's an indicator that there should be room for improvement.
Hey, what do you think of residential MVHR systems. About to do a self build, approx 4000 sq ft and considering one as well as an air source heat pump system
Hi, enjoy your videos, quick question, how do you get on with extended warranties if not using glycol? Samsung requires a backup heater if no glycol, which you can only get from a buffer.... .what if you don't need a buffer?? Catch 22
Don’t use Samsung. Viessmann and NIBE don’t require glycol or anti freeze valves.
As an AV installer I was pleasantly surprised to see audio and network structured cabling, too few builders are bothered to do this 😔
That was the customer who did this not the builders
what Lidar senser do you use?
6:42 How do you decide flow rate. Is this something you start with or is it dependant on delts T and total heatloss? I'm a bit confuse as to what the starting point would be when designing a system i.e. do you start with deltaT ?
You start with the total heat loss. Then it depends if it's a refurb or newbuild
Can you please help me understand how did you get the pressure drop on the diverter valve calculated at 1KPa? A KVs of 12.8 means you get 12.8m3/h flow rate at 1 bar pressure drop (100KPa). Your design flow rate is 1.25m3/h so shouldn’t the pressure drop be more like close to 0.1bar or 10KPa?
you must have a decimal wrong. My flow rate is 1.28m3 per hour so pressure loss through a 12.8KVs valve is 0.98 kPa
I think I know where you go wrong. Pressure loss is not a linear function of flow - so you cannot divide 12.8m3 ata 100kpa by 10 to get 1.28m3 pressure loss.
With a doubling of flow you get 4 times more pressure loss in very simple terms.
@@UrbanPlumbers Thanks for coming back, I appreciate it. You’re right, that’s what I was (wrongly obviously) assuming
Szymon can you recommend an app for heat loss calculation for diy? Need to figure it out if my house need more insulation?
Heat Engineer do have a free "rough idea" calculator. Or Heat Punk
Amazing video. Curious why the air conditioner and heat pump are different units? Wasn't this a good opportunity to consolidate them?
When you look into it, it turns out to be very difficult to do cooling with an ASHP. Not impossible, most will have a cooling mode that will produce chilled water, but you need very careful design to ensure you don't get condensation where you don't want it. You will probably find that you need different emitters - e.g. fan coils that are specifically designed to capture the condensation. And fan coils are expensive! You also need to consider DHW requirements - if you don't, you might be asking the ASHP to chill water to 18C before then asking it to heat it up again to 45C+ for the DHW, and then chill it down to 18C. It could be very inefficient unless you design the system correctly. It's not a trivial task. A second ASHP for DHW could be part of the solution but this adds extra cost. The Vaillant AroStors are an interesting option for just DHW, so that the main heat pump only has to switch between heating and cooling a few times a year. Heat Geek should produce some training on Cooling with heat pumps, but it is a massive undertaking, and there isn't a great deal of customer deman yet due to the extra cost of adding the fan coil units. If climate change increases the severity fo heatwaves in the UK, it might become a more sought after skill.
37kW - FFS - I reckon no more than 10kW heat loss at -2C for a modernish house?
Too quick off the mark -7kW Vaillant - that should be good up to 9kW when needed 😊
What controls the diverter valve? Do you have a control system to do this?
Heat pump controls control the diverter
@@UrbanPlumbers And presumably the cylinder stats signal to the heatpump when there is DHW demand from the cylinder.
What’s the software you use on you laptop?
Can someone recommend software for calculating heat loss please?
Nice video
4.4 COP : doés it include domestic hot water?
Yes
Thanks dude
Sir your videos are excellent. I'm looking to change my career to plumber and heating engineer but cannot afford to fund my course. Could you please sign post me how to go about starting a self learning journey in terms of learning resources. Thanks. Mo
What app do you use for the lidar?
Polycam or magic plan
@@UrbanPlumbers thanks
A link with apps it will be a good idea
brillant video as always
Is this a very big house for England?
Yes.
It's a shame wye/tee fittings aren't more common/affordable. Anything to extend the radius of the bends.
I don't find this file's
I will upload them by the end of the week. Sorry busy!
What week?
Good luck
design comin soon i promise....... hahah
Come on , I am busy 🤣🤣🤣
More equipment, higher cost of parts? All that mlcp has to cost as much as a buffer.....
£80 per 25m roll - so around £160 plus fittings on this job
Heating engineering
Is it cheating that you showed the heat pump being installed before asking what the heat loss is? 🤣 Single fan vaillant, and almost square, so it's the 7kW unit, so looking at between ~6 and ~8kw. I'm going to go with 6.8kW
It’s a shame you can’t put the AC below the heatpump as the ac will produce hot air and the heat pump will produce cold air or at least that’s what I suspect.
Do you really think they will be cooling the house while trying to heat it?
@@normanboyes4983what happens when they are running the heat pump to heat up hot water then? That is the time when heat pumps run at the lowest COP and have the most cold air output from the heat pumps heat exchanger. The warmer that is the better the COP. watch a bit of heat geek experiment when they put reflectors to use sunlight to create more heat.
You should take more care of yourself and not reply to us late in the night (Even if we all apreciate It)i, try to not ruin your health.
You look tired + I Think your Family needs you too, now and in the long run … 😊
So complicated.. May as well forget it.
This is insanity
Forget to have decent heating? Those principles apply to any heat source - boilers including
I think it just highlights how little effort has been put into most heating design. Just running any old pipework diameter around and then oversizing a boiler to be on the safe side. Makes me wonder just how inefficient and wasteful most homes must be.
Are you a homeowner or a plumber?