Why poorly placed farms aren't as bad as you think
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ต.ค. 2024
- You can stop feeling guilty about poorly placed farms. They're actually okay (sometimes). We'll also look at when perfect farm placement is important.
Game: Age of Empires 2 Definitive Edition, with Forgotten Empires, African Kingdoms, Rise the Rajas, and Last Khans expansions
Patreon: / spiritofthelaw
Full intro song: • Spirit of the Law Chan...
Background music from Epidemic Sound: www.epidemicsou...
I for one, have never been shamed for my farms.
Hmmmm
And you also forced devs to introduce new Khmer farming bonus. 11 11 11 11
Why would you anyway? :-D
I was about to bring a "T90 likes it", but... here we are, already. xD
Well from now on you can just point people at this video when they make jabs at you.
Next up: Building three archery ranges on a tiny neutral island isn't that bad.
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Best comment so far!
*sponsored by T90 Official
What is up with that? I don’t understand why they are there.
@@TheElatedDwarf Once, a long time ago, T90 was playing a tournament -his first one? I'm not sure-, and he was on the Islands map. He thought of scouting his opponent's island to transport some vils and build some sneaky archery ranges on the back of the island. So he was scouting with a ship, found the island, and immediately transported some vils who built 3 archery ranges. Once they finished building, he realised that was not his opponent's island, but one of the tiny islands in the middle. That's, more or less, the story!
But you are not factoring in the psychological impacts that poorly placed farms have on the player.
Every time I see that my farms are placed poorly, there is a part of me that thinks "it's okay if they get attacked, because I can build new ones and this time they will actually look pretty".
A well placed farm increases morale by at least 25%
There's also the reverse psychological impact : horribly placed farms might confuse the opponent when he'll see them, and could give you an advantage while he's trying to figure out why you placed those farms this poorly
Hey guys SotL here, today I'm gonna find out how much does bad morale decrease the quality of the gameplay.
Well on average it's 24.74%.
OCD (Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder, not Out of Character Development) is a real gamer problem, people!
You got an Excel chart to back that 25% claim?
That's just science. Everybody should know that.
This video has been sponsored by T90
XD
There are no poorly placed farms, only T90 farms :)
SotL, Blink twice if you're being held hostage by T90!
I can't tell, you are wearing sunglasses
Alternate thumbnail
"T90 farms?
No problem"
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SotL has officially endorsed T90
It's T20
@@europeanpatriot8031 t-80
@@nvmtt The Supercar from GTA Online is named T20, not T90
@@nvmtt t-70
T 1000
Florida man grows mustache and becomes crazy, kidnaps fellow TH-camr
Underrated comment
That's why we need a wall between Canada and the US!
@@noradrenalin8062 Hasn't anyone learned of tunnels and airdrops?
Cop's report:
Crazy Florida man said "woo woo" when we turned on our sirens, rants about "T90 walls" and making "legends". He's going away for a long time. We're gonna get him checked out at the psyche ward first though. Also need to run "blue coffee" through the database and see if it's some kind of street slang or just the ramblings of a madman
@@ringofasho7721 Must be some sort of secret message to all Bill Cipher loyalists.
Finally, a video where Spirit doesn't tell me how bad of a player I am
Don't worry we will do that for him.
The only difference is practice, and you're just being lazy.
@@Namelesswhirl exactly, at least TRY to focus, Jon.
@@Namelesswhirl You know just as well as we do that that last game didn't go that well, now did it, Jon?
Yeah Jon! How many times has an enemy stormed through and destroyed that royal garden you took so long to plan?
You forgot the part that badly placed farms are irrelevant if you have idle villagers.
"Farm-shaming" XD - sorry, gonna have to steal that.
T90 is gonna love this video
Thats for sure🤣
Imagine if SotL invited t90 as a guest speaker for this video 11
You forgot to mention the part where you say "T90 held me hostage in his basement! SEND HELP!"
Blink twice if yes
Spirit of the Law is lying to all of you. He knows you'll listen to 'em. "Oh yeah, yeah your farms are fine like that!" he says. Meanwhile at his base he's got perfectly placed farms and 3 more knights than you, and probably a monk already out there collecting relics.
I see the conspiracy theories have reached the age community as well
@@TheEarlyBirdofficial It won't be a conspiracy when you find out all the relics have already been collected by the time you make your first monk!
Peter Early ooooh a Thunderdome profile picture!
@@viperxr3761 You got it!
Peter Early I never see em around so I was super surprised!
Sotl, is T90 pointing a gun to your head, when you made this?
SoTL, blink twice if you're being held hostage.
I would argue the true problem of badly placed farms is the space they take. If you have a smaller map or are stuck inside your walls you have to optimize farm placement
SOTL, you can be honest with us, how much did T90 pay you? Kappa :D
Lmao
T90 proposed devs to give Japanese a buff. 11
Jokes apart, since we have Supplies, Samurai became a very very rare unit. Giving this unit a buff - like 1 more PA - so that they will be a bit more common would be great.
Sponsored and Endorsed by T90™
Your videos are like scientific papers - complete with Introduction, Methods, Results, Discussion, Conclusion, and finally, Acknowledgements as well. Very entertaining and informative. Please keep up the good work!
You almost single-handedly renewed my love for AoE2.
T90 use his battle royal money to "convince" SOTL
Khmer: I see no difference
SotL: "Poorly placed farms aren't all that bad."
Everyone in the comments: *Joking about T90*
Wait, if Slavs farm 18% faster but the farm only grows 10% faster, does this mean that as Slavs for max efficiency you should build the farms, but leave them for a while before you start to collect? 🤯
You probably only net a little food from that 4D chess move. But it's about sending a message to your opponent. :)
Actual crop rotation.
Yeah and let them hear some slav hardbass and patrol dance on their farms before that
th-cam.com/video/2KC5BqryRrA/w-d-xo.html - I like to think this comment inspired spirit to make that video! 😏
i THINK that the farms can only store 10 food at once, could be wrong tho
I didn't actually realise that farms "grow" food until now! I thought they just spawn with all of it at once, like when you slaughter an animal, or collect from a berry bush, do fishfarms have the same mechanic?!
this q next
Yeh its kinda weird when you think about it.
@@Janovich well you eat corpse starch so for a Krieger to call that food source weird is truly surprising.
@@kellscarthechosen327 well aoe2 is deathkorps approved so there's that. Just spam grenadiers.
@@Janovich Shame there's no ability to dig trenches.
It’d be awesome if after researching handcart, every villager would be seen pushing an actual handcart : D
That's a good idea for a mod actually
Yes, there is a lot DE could have done here that I feel was a missed opportunity. They clearly have the modeling budget considering all the other visual stuff they keep adding each update/event. In particular (though I admit this is more work than average) I would have loved to see a more basic form for the villager that is changed to the classic one once you get Loom; simply because Loom is such a important timing upgrade that it warrants proper visual feedback. Even from the POV of a spectator experience that would be a big deal. I would also have LOVED to see different visual stages for farms depending on which farm upgrade you have (just small variations with each stage getting a thicker growth). Maybe some extra tools lying around lumber/mining camps as you get upgrades for those, etc.
@@GepardenK To be fair, making the flashy unit changes might have been detrimental to the computer space.
Also, the changes might be a bit divisive for some old school and retro gamers.
@@GepardenK Still, your idea deserves a thumbs up for me.
Totally agree, graphics should be useful not just fancy. Loom could update the villager to another (better) villager unit with better stats and different looks instead of changing stats, just like almost all military units. Also: berries, mines and farms could have something to show they are ending (like fire is used for the HP in buildings)
Did the intro always have "house Tyrell, growing strong" or is it new?
It's new haha... SOTL should do another video on the GOT scenario
His intro tends to have one or two fragments specific to the video in question. So he probably picked the "House Tyrell" part for the subject of farms, and I don't think it will stick around for long, but it was great to see it again.
Idk i guess you'll just have to watch them all and catch up for the continuity XD
And then it got invaded and afterwards slaughtered.
SotL's campaign was better than the show though, what with Season 7 and all.
SOTL: Poorly placed farms.
Chat: Did you say T90?
Still better than T90's farms, JK xD
But what if the poorly placed farms are in symmetry? Like the low ELO legends
He did a video on that. Called the perfect square or something
th-cam.com/video/btwsrh7iEUI/w-d-xo.html
When he deletes the one farm he placed poorly, then accidentally almost placed a house instead.
Ouch. That felt like a personal attack.
Ok sure, but you have to admit that perfect farm placement gives a significant boost to satisfaction.
Yeah, everyone asks food fast from the peasants, but no one asks how the peasants are. Maybe some have OCD and you make them suffer by not giving them a good farm square farm placement.
Wilhelm Roepke, is that you?
Naw, with ideal farms you have no place to throw a couple of teutonic towers inbetween to hide there in case of emergency rather than running toward TC ;)
You underestimate my capacity to play simcity in aoe2
"Why poorly placed farms aren't as bad as you think"
*T90 liked that*
Of course he did. 11
In other words in Early game I should build them close but after That I can make a 1 tile gap around my town Center so that the farms align and are pretty.
And then get killed by the enemy for playing sim city
And SOTL, I wonder why high ranked players tend to place farm plots manually each time they exhausted, instead of auto-sowing them? Villagers usually stop for a second and do they work properly, and players can earn their time to focus on micro-ing!
These pros don't have resources in the bank. They spend resources as soon as they get them. Auto sowing takes a lot of wood.
If they have too much wood, they relocate the villagers to other resources, the only time you see resources, is when they are saving for a research/upgrade.
i expected T90 to be featured in this video
Khmer mains: "I am beyond such petty concerns."
I dont get one thing. Shouldnt this mean Khmer farmers are 3% slower than generic farm civs?
There's something else that I think we all realise but it should be mentioned: in the early game, economy micro is the most important thing you can do. But in the late game, you aren't supposed to be paying as much attention to your economy anymore, because you should be constantly using your military. So this also means bad farms early on is just you playing badly, but bad farms later on happen because you had more important things to pay attention to.
Bingo!
And even game balance is built to encourage that.
Ok wtf, so does this mean that if you want to collect even faster as slavs, you pre-build farms with 1 villager before sending vils on it to gather the food at +18%?
Interesting question, gotta try this out. Same question for well placed regular civs farms, i guess.
Seems SOTL read this comment :D
Pro tip, keep playing your original cd and never play online. No one has farm shamed me and I never lose a game on easy.
The decreased efficiency of farms comes from the time that the villagers need to drop the collected food into the mill. They need to spend time to do this instead of gathering more food. That is why the hand cart is crucial: it reduces the time that villagers require to drop the food (by increasing the amount of food they can carry, effectively reducing the number of trips they need to do, and by increasing their movement speed).
Since the displacement of farms due to poor allocation (compared to perfect/baseline) just slightly increases the time that villagers need to do a trip to the mill, the allocation of farms will have small negative impact on efficiency.
The 14 year old me obsessed with AoE II would have loved these videos.
The farm growing food is so insane. They didn't need to do that.
The fact that they made it so intricate as to allow farms to be placed farther from dropoff points without hurting efficiency, and also limit collection in the meantime is amazing.
I just don't see the same level of detail going into newer games.
And still mamelukes throw cimitars. The magic of AoE
Yeahp, games from range 95 to 2005 are, to me, the best games by far. There is lots of them made by passion and heart. All my favourite games are from that era, I still play all of them from time to time... I don't play any newer game because they mostly are souless. So it was a big surprise to me discovering the game "Factorio", wich is so well done, and has that same vibe from the classic games.
Thank you for another great video!
Can you please do the analysis for the Supplies tech?
It seems to be a common idea, that Supplies is a noob trap, and it'll be great to find out when is it worth getting it.
The question is not trivial as resources have different value at different stages of the game and in game prices generally tend to inflate overtime.
As well as some unique cases for some civs.
I want to know when T90's SUUUPPLIIIEESS is justified.
I still hate that the devs decided to buff the militia line with that tech. It has the greatest benefit in Imperial, but champions were fine and have always seen plenty of use, especially against meso.
Should have just given the whole line +1P or more HP, or reduced the cost without a tech requirement.
T90: I've seen enough. I'm satisfied.
He could also have Said Players except T90 normally dont place farms that Bad
i didnt know farms had a grow rate, i always thought the villagers just collect from them and they despawn when done, so how does it actually work? the farm produces food and has it "stashed" if you will and that stash can fill up and then be emptied again by the villager, for example when theyre walking to drop of the food? and what decides when the farm then dissapears?
also, im guessing this also means placing 4 farms arround a mill to increase efficiency actually doesnt really increase efficiency?(i do it as teutons because i usually play black forest so im swimming in wood anyway.
Pretty much. Farms fill up a "pool" of food at a given growth rate, that can then be collected by villagers at their given collection rate. The classic food counter you see on farms is not how much food the farm holds, but rather how much "food revenue" that can be produced in total from a farm before it needs to be reseeded.
I'm gonna be real, I double-up my farms around a mill because it looks nicer.
How much did T90 pay you to make this?
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T90, are you watching? 👀
Seems to me that the biggest takeaway is that researching hand cart lets you double up all your farms at your existing TCs/Mills
"This video has been sponsored by T90Official. More on that later."
I don't care if anyone shames me for whatever reason.
But my own OCD won't allow me to do it.
Kinda as expected. Back when you talked about the value of the Ugprade, I noticed: What carry capacity does is offset the impact of imperfect walking distances. But usually you already optimized for walking distances.
Did T90 paid you to record this?
4:13 note thhe ad-friendly placement. I wonder if placing the right one in the south a tile further northeast would cause trouble with TH-cam ?
People only really get mad at terrible farm placement in team games like Black Forest because of “limited” space in the teams spawn
I didnt even know that farms "grow". I thought they had a build phase like a normal building and then had to be rebuilt (meaning re-seeded) after a while
Holy smokes that is some great game design right there! I dont know if this was intentional, but making it so that town planning really pays off in the early game where it is the focus, but is more lenient in the end game, where other things demand your attention, in this elegant a manner is really impressive!
@spirit of the law, if that is ideal farm setup, then this is godtier:
puu.sh/GNgpX/6a241e2be4.jpg (screen shot)
Now make video about how efficient is to place 3 archery ranges on an island
Poorly placed farms can limit space for other buildings in tight maps
How timely. WinterSC was getting backseated on Twitch last night with his econ and farm placement. He's been learning on Khmer...
T90 would be proud
*Happy T90 noises*
what about berbers?
I dont even know of this Game, but nice guide. Might try it out lol
It was very relaxing to know that it is a bit more forgiving in imperial age as farms are usually placed with a super general round pattern of clicks...😂👍
"I don't think it will blow any minds that upgrade increase farming"
Damn been skipping upgrades, gotta save them resources 11
(this is a joke)
Next video: three archery ranges on a neutral island is not that bad
I mean you are the only one who ever told me that bad farm placement is bad
Ludikris map with tc in the middle and my farms at the edge is my ideal farming as khmer.
I mean, I've always thought as long as your putting farms down that's a good thing. Sketchy farms are better than no farms.
Also... **Laughs in Khmer**
I’m always so impressed by your mathematic approach to these questions and your experimental design to solve them, well played!
Mais oui c'est khmer (zerator si tu passe par la) 🤣🤣🤣🤣
T90 paid you to make this video didn't he
Something something
T90farms
I’ve never actually gotten farm shamed. Well I have, but only by myself
I love that "Don't agonize over it...". It reminds my of myself, misplacing a farm, removing it and taking two ages to place it right... Or not reseeding just to make sure I place it alright the next time... resulting in me leaving ten villagers idle just so I can place a farm two inches nearer to the mill.
just play against ai and pause the game
@@mrosskne Sorry but I can't. It seems like cheating.. What will the AI think of me? 😀
@@calvinrunner4897 good news, the AI also cheats by controlling multiple units at once
Would berbers be better the worse your farms are?
SOTL, perhaps you could do a test on building a second ring of farms around an existing mill vs making a new mill with perfectly adjacent farms with higher efficiency.
There will be a significant drop in efficiency. The real question is whether that efficiency drop still exists for aztecs and slavs or whether they can get away with fewer mills late game.
@@naphackDT but a new mill costs resources. How long does the inefficiency take until the break even point.
Hi Everybody.
T90 approves!
3:01 germany isn't happy with this farm placement
Did T90 commission this study?
I've got a different challenge for SoTL: How do the villagers survive a direct hit by the mill blade as, for example, seen at 1:01 - 1:12 or at 1:19?
How much money T90 pay you?
T90 isnt as bad as I thought.
In short- Vikings' eco bonus is amazing.
Are you going to make a video about how mustaches help with your AOE2 skills next?
*cue TFS' "Mustache" song*
I'm pretty sure this video is a response to the aforementioned farmshaming
Wish villagers were restarting the farms AUTOMATICALY, and farms that do not spawn the mud!
OCDs like me always put the farms in the ideal shape.
Of course, if there's no place for ideal farms (or I play as the Khmers), I'll just spam them, you can't just wreck your eco because you can't put farms like that, right?
I wish this appeared in my quantitative finance interviews
SOTL: You dont need to farmshame!
ME: Shit, i thought i know everything about farming! Oooh nooo - farmshaming begins again....! 😢
Tatar have cucumber farms only,cause monk says "AMGRIN IS THE GAY AMONG THE MEN"
I think this actually is quite interesting; however it does beg to ask the question, what IS the most optimum way to place farms? When should you build a mill for the purpose and when do you just branch out from TC and berry mill?
Important to note this effect gets worse if you don't have carry upgrades (wheelbarrow, hand cart and heavy plough). A large part of the reason you don't see a large drop off is because the longer walking distance only happens every time the vil needs to drop off, if they take 20 actions and only one of them is a long walk this obviously compares favourably to taking 1 actions and one of them being a long walk. If they drop off more often they walk more so they spend less time collecting. Post-imp farming is probably the most important assumption made in the video.
Farming upgrades make a more significant difference to inefficiently placed farms than to efficiently placed ones.
I wonder if this Farm/Farmer work rate mechanic works the same for Fish Traps. How fast do Fishing Ships and Fish Trap work?
I think what i pull away from this is: holy shit people are playing aoe2 and putting a lot of effort into improving detailed aspects of it!! :O
What exactly do you mean by the speed at which farms generate food? Once built they already contain the food (with the given upgrades/none) and its only limited by gather rate, walking distance, & build time.