Is it actually coming? I read your article about it, and it has been a while since. There is no longer any references to it in the product. I think it would make a lot of sense.
Forgive me if I sound like an idiot. I think that the better you are, the harder it is to improve and so as the levels get higher, the increase in requirements should be smaller. That the current category B could become Category C and the new category B could be a category that's halfway between the current B and A categories. I hope that makes sense.
To put it further, B should be broken up into two categories, with the upper category from about 3.8 - 4.2 ftp and a "lower" B of around 3.3-3.8, with the corresponding ZMAP and 1 minute power weighted into a formula. As it is now, upper C riders don't want to go into B to race against A's. Competition in both B and C would be much better as a result
Pretty much like real life racing in the uk. The not so very top area (cat2) gets saturated with a wide range of abilities, you can end up going from great racing (cat3) to being hammer every single race by people who are in theory the same category as you.
It's well known fact about "upper B"... They will deliberately avoid any TT, threshold, FTP test effort, throttle the power to stay 20minute power below 4.2 wk/g to avoid A upgrade, while hiddenly they can put 8-9 w/kg 1 minute power to win. put those "sandbag B" in the real test, most of them will get upgraded. Other side of equation. A is too tough, and not many people race in the field. I can see why I and people want to just stay in the B, it's a lot more fun. I always think 5 and 1 minute power should be included in caterory factor for typical race, not 20 minute power (reserve that for TT and montain climbs). 5 minute power already pretty well correlate with your ability for 20 minute power. if we include 1 minute or 15s max power as a criteria, that will be a lot more fair for racing.
This! I am bouncing around high B and Low A. Racing B is great, loads of players. But one uphill TT, which I like to do, and I am back in A cat. Empty pens there and the players that are there from time to time are either cheating or A+.
Actually zMAP (which is pretty much 5 min power) is already used, just not advertised. I was upgraded to B from C even though my FTP was still low. I might even get enforced to A if I killed myself on a 5 min effort and have held 10W/kg for 30 sec in a long sprint, yet my FTP is genuinely middle-of-the-B-pack (3.6-3.7)
@@eloann yes i know zMAP. 5 minute power is around 120% of your potental ftp . It's more like most riders never have enough leg freshness, endurance (on high sustained power and commitment to do proper long threshold (20-60 minute) ftp test.
Thanks for this. I’m between C and B cat most of the time. I’m 67kg with no top end power (1 min is 5w/kg / never broken 600 watts in a sprint). I usually get upgraded to B off the back of TT results where I can ride at 3.4W/kg. I’m 56 and have approx 6 hours a week to train so significant improvement is difficult. I’m dropped very quickly in most B races - I just can’t sustain the requisite power on the climbs. I normally race very flat B races or TTs until I get downgraded back into C. I think a system of progression based on wins/ podiums/ placings could work or split categories for B and C with distinct A and A plus categories too. There is definitely a lot of deliberate sandbagging going on at the top of B and probably C too. I’m sure that Zwift love the prime time mayhem and large fields so don’t have an incentive to change. I’m happy to ride in B but would prefer a system that better used rider data to establish category. Thanks for the video, really good to see someone having an honest conversation about where they think they should be and the shortcomings of the current system.
Sounds like you are in a similar position. It is tough being on the border. I wonder if there could be seasons with promotion and relegation at the end of the season based less on individual performances, but more relative to the field.
I am in a similar position. 55Yr, but a bit heavier at 83kg. I can hold most CAT B races, so long as there isn't too much climb. I'm right on the lower threshold. But I prefer to push myself in B, so even when Zwift drops me back to C, I continue to ride in B - I'm going to get graded back in to B sooner or later anyway, so I might as well just race B. I have no hope of winning a B race - or even coming close. But it is fun and I get a good workout. To use an Australian expression - We aren't playing for sheep stations here 😄
I'm in roughly the same boat -- 58 yr old, well below average recreational cyclist forced to race in B against folks like @ModerateCyclist. Being older my power curve is pretty flat and I am totally lacking the 1-5 min power needed to effectively even hang on in B races. The insane thing is that apparently if I could just manage to pull off a higher 3-5 minute power somewhere I might get demoted to C, but I just can't make it happen. I would like people at the top who are cruising and talking about "race craft" to know what's it like to be at the bottom of the cat. It is a profoundly different experience for us cat "losers" down here. Zwift have been running their own version of the Stanford prison experiments for sure.
@@GarthSomerville just seen a racing score appear on my companion app profile. Zwift Labs are running some new test events based on race scores. Events are scheduled now, I’ve joined the Zwift Labs club on the app where they can be found. Not sure if this will work but at least it’s some sort of attempt to categorise by results rather than 20 min power.
Thanks Garth, this is an important perspective to share. I don't quite understand what you are saying about higher 3-5m power to get demoted, it would be great if you could explain more. I agree it seems off-balance that we get put into the same category. That said, I think if all riders with a power profile exceeding the top got moved up, it would make Cat B more hospitable for those through the middle of the range.
TFC Mad Monday races split thr categories. Theres Mad A which is for 4.85+wkg, mid a 4.37-4.84, mad b 3.96-4.36, mid b 3.58-3.95, etc. It's fun to race against others much closer in fitness.
I have half a dozen mates who ride competitively in A in club races (in real life), but can easily sandbag in B on Zwift. If you sit in and just sprint, it's not difficult to stay out of the grading system's algorithm. Perhaps more factors need to be included in the grading equation - a certain number of podiums in a given time pushes you up a grade, etc?
When I do ramp tests it pushes up my 5 min power but not 20m. It actually reduces my zftp because it steepens my power curve. My ramp test outcome will calculate an ftp of 340w meanwhile my zftp is under 310.
I think dynamic, performance based categories, the way IndieVelo does it make the most sense. Basing it on “fitness” numbers that people can easily manipulate doesn’t really make sense. How you perform in races should be what decides the category you are in.
Zwift math is a wild place. A friend and I have done a lot of work trying to understand it. We both are B+ and have bounced around the top end of B for a long time, yet neither of us have gotten into A for more than a few days I once did a breakaway where I averaged 350 for 22 minutes or so. I got the A upgrade with a 4.2 wkg average. zFTP of 340. The next day I did a 6 minute Petite KOM effort at roughly 400 watts/4.9 wkg and went back to B with a zFTP of 325.
@drewbuffington B+ is exactly what the video is stating. The group of riders at the top of a category that can exceed the bottom of the next category but not trip the Zwift Cat upgrade. And I race in an attacking style, not sit in and sprint.
@@brianwhite9 That’s just a B. It’s clearly explained in the rules that “if your zFTP (watts) value falls in a lower pace group than your zMAP(w/kg) or zFTP(w/kg), you’ll also be able to enter the group where your zFTP(watts) falls. Its not that complicated. It’s because w/kg isn’t the only determiner for speed in Zwift. RAW watts matter too even on climbs.
@drewbuffington I honestly disagree with the hard set rules you reference from Zwift. We can debate back and forth on this. I have raced with guys who hit 4.4 or better repeatedly in B races and they stay there. It is not cut and dry as you think
Tough doing those indoor ramps.. If zwift looked at my outside races/time trials I would definitely fall into A, but indoors I can't replicate that same power. I normally only ride indoors after taking time off from my outdoor race season, which is partly the reason..
That will do it. They are very different styles of riding. I am trying to apply the constant power of Zwift to my outdoor riding for more consistent power/speed. But I can definitely produce bigger watts outdoors.
Having spent a few years in Cat A, winning regularly, I would often not be surprised to see Cat B riders mixing in the sprints at the end of mixed races. Or, sometimes even checking ZwiftPower and seeing that the Cat B's finished the race faster than us Cat A's. Atter a lengthy illness I'm now working to regain my fitness and have dropped to CAT B. I'm finding the issues with the categories are not power related, but rather ego or race craft related. I say all.the time that it's not always the strongest rider that wins the race. As highlighted at the end of your Cat B racee here. If have stayed with the pack, made the most of the Aero gains from the pack and saved those efforts for the end. I find that folksnin A tend to race far smarter than those in B.
I agree with you about B riders in A. I enjoy Points races because they often have early sprints where you can get in the mix, without having to stay with the bunch for the full race. I think when Cat B finishes faster than Cat A it's because of the number of riders. I absolutely agree on the craft reflection. I am guilty of racing dumb in the race in this video. But my intention was to lay down a lot of power for the purposes of this video. It is a bit of a catch 22 though. It's hard to build your race craft when you get upgraded to A and never see a finish again.
I do feel for B riders who don't have good VO2 max. I am currently sitting on 4.36 for 20 mins and am still classified B. I had a couple of months off and finding competitive races at the times I like to ride is difficult. I did a KISS race last friday with the As that was intense but the climbs were only 3.5 minutes @ 5.3W/kg so didn't improve my recent 5min power. I personaly enjoy the challenge of riding in A cat but have been disappointed that there have been so few A riders for most events and given the option of riding with 4 A Cats vs 30 B Cats I go with the later
20m power alone won't upgrade you, it is not enough to move your zFTP figure. Riding over 5.1wkg for 5m is also super hard in a race setting. 100% agree on the lack of riders in Cat A races.
I kinda like being on the stronger end of the Cat B races and being able to make significant attacks or work to pull back breaks and not just hanging on for dear life
Sounds like they need to add another category: like a+,A,BC ? The other trouble with 5 minute power and or ftp test, is people can easily compromise the test, by not exceeding the numbers they want to stay in B?
As a low A myself it’s tough and what’s worse is since Autocat there are almost no riders in A races so can’t even get a race in (in Sydney Timezone) and I’ve almost given up bothering racing on Zwift. I can win the odd race as I have very good short term and sprint power and that is what’s keeping me in A unfortunately. Ultimately it’s a video game and a workout platform.
It will be interesting to see what happens with all the new players in the market. MyWhoosh are making quite a play at the racing scene. Your experience matches mine. I can win Cat A races depending on which other 3 people show up 😜
i'm an upper B rider *trying* to get that A upgrade, and I'm about 20 watts off on the 40 minute and 5 minute power. I need 395 for 5 mins and am on 368, and am on 315 for 40 mins, but i need 335. So looks like I am really safe for a while, and can keep getting top 5 in B races with 4.0/4.1/4.2. Which is kind of getting dull, so I enter A races with the mission not to get dropped / finish last, as it's more of a challenge. If there was a red A only category, that would be perfect for me. It's the black A's that get me dropped.
Totally agree i'm at the same place with watts/kg and have an easy time with most all B races. the black A just kill me in the A races. I can sprint with the best but my FTP just needs to be higher.
I wouldn't rush to get into A. It will come eventually. I have found I need to build my FTP to 4.5 to be loosely impactful in A. Lean in on ZRL and the alike for Cat B, and drop into some Cat A Monthlies with friends to push yourself. 100% agree though, Red A would be awesome.
@@ModerateCyclist Thanks! Yeah, I think it will take a few more weeks. Just averaged 4.2 w/kg for the AHDR 'The Chop' pursuit race. On holiday next week, so guessing I'll drop a few watts and start building again next month. I raced 'elite without contract' level in NL/BE in 2008, 10 kilos lighter and 16 years younger than I am now.
@@ModerateCyclist ha ha, just got promoted after finishing in the first group of an A race. If it's reasonably flat my 328 FTP means I have no problems.
I've bounced between B and C recently. For me C races are no fun because if it's long enough, I can usually just ride away from the pack if I want to. Even as a C, I'd often race B. At 90+ kilos, I can't do much on real hills, but I can often hang with good B riders on flat or rolling courses. I'll never get upgraded unless I lose a lot of weight, and I don't have much weight I can lose: I once measured 8-9% body fat at 85 kilos when I was younger, so that's something of a floor. I've decided to just have fun with it and do my best. Flat races, I'll race up front. But I'll even do hilly or mountainous races, even though mid-pack is the absolute best I can hope for. It's just about fun and fitness and doing my best.
I agree it’s all about having fun. IMO you need to be engaged in a race. Off the front is not fun, off the back is not fun. As long as you can find a grade where you are in the bunch no matter where you cross the line that is the best spot.
I like mass start events. As for racing below ability. I tend to race a lot but in order to do that i dont go all out 100%, else i just overtrain and end up really drained.
I think the new race score is a much better approach. Sometimes races are more about tactics than pure power. The more you win the higher you should go.
An alternative approach might be to have races where risers are split up into 4 or 5 or 6 groups based on FTP etc. The top group might contain the top 25% of riders, the second group the next 25% etc. In this way as a rider you would get a mix of races, sometimes you'd be at the top of the group you end up in and competing for the win, other times you'd be at the bottom and just trying to hold onto the front group. This would also remove the incentive for people to 'hide' and make it harder to game the system.
This seems to be what is coming with the racing points system. It makes it possible for "losing" to actually be "winning" when it is against tougher competition.
I'm in B, and I am a B racer (ftp is like 3.9). But currently I don't even know if I want to upgrade to A because there're almost no riders in each race
They should go base in HR at said threshold power. If a 30 year old rider is winning a B race averaging 3.8 wpk but his average HR is 130 beats then hes obviously sandbagging the B race.
The fact that there are literally people riding a bicycle shaped game controller in their living room and huffing and grunting at their TV is hilarious. Just when you thought roadies were max cringe they go even harder.
Add weight to the problem with cat B and fixed w/KG limits. Try a 4.2w/kg 65 kg rider vs a 4.2w/kg 95kg rider - who will win? Flat - the heavy rider by a large margin. Climb - still the heavy rider, but only by a small margin. Most of the best B riders have big numbers, and alot of kilos.
I think this is what keeps a lot of riders in B too. Not to mention most casual races feature very little elevation, which never gives lighter riders a chance to leverage their advantage. That said, I have a young guy in my race team who has a FTP of 4.6wkg, but he is not heavy enough to move up from Cat C. He can keep pace with Cat A through everything other than bunch sprints.
Late, but whatever. :P This is exactly my problem. I'm a VERY low Cat B rider that looks for any and all races that actually have appreciable elevation - I can hold 3.5-4 w/kg (4 being if there's elevation, because the added resistance helps a ton to keep my power up when doing my high-gear-ratio/out of saddle climbing) for a race, but given that my weight is 64 kg, my measly 230-250 watts isn't doing crap save getting me dropped on the flats. My worst performances are typically on flat routes or those that feature descents - even with the most aero and heavy of bikes, I can't keep up with guys that push out 300+ watts at 3.2 w/kg!!
ZRL seems to have got the message this year with my variation in the route choices. Ideally there are stages for all specialties. Hopefully the same continues more broadly across the platform.
Sounds like there is space for another category but also Worth remembering that even at the professional level most the riders starting the race don’t stand a chance of winning. A lot of interesting things Zwift could try to solve. Such as handicapping by certain number of seconds based on your power curve and/or play with the aerodynamics to handicap (stronger riders get less draft) They could also try to factor in % of your best power curve, as in maybe the elastic band is harder to snap if you’re both doing similar percentages of your max for a given time frame. Difficult to optimise as you wouldn’t want to lose a sprint doing 1500 to someone doing 600 because both are 100% but that way stronger riders who begin to reveal their true signature as they get dropped or the finish approaches wouldn’t benefit as they’d still just be at 100%
Ultimately I don't think it is about winning. It's about being able to be in the race. It feels much better getting dropped on the final climb, or losing a bunch sprint, than being spat out the back 5m into the race.
The flaw isn’t the categorisation. It’s the lack of tough courses. Too short climbs. If there was races with high 8 min plus steep gradient climbs you’d have much harder racing. Instead it’s just sit on and sprint with the odd couple of 2 min punchy climbs. When was the last time you did a 20 min climb full gas in a Zwift race?
This is very true. For so many the ZMonthies are the primary races, and they are designed to be accessible. ZRL pushes the threshold a little more. We saw some guys upgraded this week as a result of the final climb.
Idealy you have 20 categories, so slimmer is the gap between them. But then the races will be different. I only see a ranking system with a set number of riders as possibility for this. Example: Each race starts with 50 people. The ranking devides everyone into sets of 50. The amount of riders that are left make up for the last "cat". In this way you have the more riders starting the race, the better it will fit your ability. You get ranked on your performance after that race.
To add onto that: racing A cat as a B cat is the way to improve your racecraft. The way you are able to close all the gaps to each breakaway is remarkable. My 20 min power is not reaching 4,3 at all. But I am able to win with 3,4 w/kg.
I’ve just finished your video. You should be cat A. You are sandbagging and one of those who I struggle to follow as a lightweight in Cat B whilst I’m near-threshold for half an hour. However, the categories should be based on performance and not a one-dimensional test. Just like real life Categories.
Pros and cons of weight. We have a few younger guys on our team who have massive wkg FTPs but only weight 50kg. They will crush you on climbs, but will struggle to hold the wheel in sprints.
I am prepared to take your claim on the chin. But it is a really fine line. What constitutes sandbagging. I have switched from ramp tests to 20m FTP tests because I need to get better riding off ERG mode. I am racing as hard as I can, definitely not pulling any punches. I am going to go where Zwift puts me until they flip into the new racing score system.
@@ModerateCyclist you are definitely right that the categorisation doesn’t work well. They should really do a points system. I stopped using Zwift because the racing is demoralising when I’m smashing 4w/kg for 20/30 mins and finishing back of the pack and spent in cat B. And that’s racing sensibly
@@ModerateCyclist another big problem is that drafting just isn’t realistic. As a smaller guy I can happily sit in a pack at 40kph and chill. Zwift say that the physics they’ve used accurate but I just don’t get it. Maybe it’s because you don’t get the physical sensation of being pulled along by the vortex of a bunch 🤷♂️ Anyway, I enjoyed the vid 👏
Definitely not an easy thing to do. With any handicap system, the winners of one category would nearly always be fine racing in the next one up, you just have to accept that. In the case of cycling you have a problem of different rider profiles and different race types, and vastly different race participant amounts, making it almost impossible to settle on anything fair. As someone who races in off hours, I think it would make the most sense to combine a and b and just have the results split, but that would probably really annoy the prime time racers with large fields. But that way getting the a promotion would be see as an upgrade not a downgrade, because it makes it clear winning b is a really just someone losing to the A’s.
That is a really interesting concept. Running combined A+B races. This is a little bit like how the big events like Tour de Zwift work... I agree that you are always going to have riders on the threshold of a category. I think it only becomes a problem when there is no top (as in the case of A).
It's not a problem of cat B, it's a problem of cat A. I felt pretty good in cat B and the field was pretty fair and equal. But once you get into A it's like the wild west. All from 4.1 to 6 wkg in the same bag. Cheaters are way worse than the sandbaggers in B. In A, you have to grow up to at least to 4.5wkg to have any chance surviving.
I agree that ramp tests are not the most accurate measure. I use it because it is the yard stick I have been using. But I am considering maybe flipping to 20m tests instead.
I’m now on my whoosh (I’m only doing structured trainings from the coach and don’t race). I’m using power passport protocol and it’s dead accurate, completely neglects my overpowered low end.
Interesting Video, i feel they should've kept B up to 3.99, A 4-4.5 and A+ 4.5 and above. However there's probably a good reason they've picked the splits the way they have 🤷. I used to be a top B rider who occasionally raced in A, but i would be lucky to stay in the pack. The jump is too big due to the top level not having a ceiling.
Thank you for sharing! I don't look forward to being forced into the "A" category mainly because there are so few riders when compared to "B." The category enforcement system is quite faulty, but I don't see any indication that Zwift cares enough to make it a priority over adding silly content. I have some gentle feedback: it's pretty difficult to hear your commentary over the music. When the music dies down a little bit I can hear you decently. Would you consider lowering the volume of the music track in future videos so the audience has a better chance at understanding you? Thank you again for sharing your experience!
I agree with you about Zwifts priorities. Although if they went Red A Black A, and pushed more upper B into Red A I think there would be better balance. Also thank you for the feedback on the audio. I will make note for future videos.
Zwift categories are deeply flawed, for many reasons. Also the ZRaces are short (usually on flat) efforts that rarely push people to the limits for more for a few seconds (maybe up to a 2min max effort at best). If you want to see more competitive races try one using the Zwift racing app categories. The difference is noticeable and much more fun races. DIRT and FRR use them. Hopefully Zwift will roll out racing score sooner than later and will help a bit.
bruh im in the top of cat C now, my FTP is already into cat B territory. There is no way i can get close to 4.0w/KG average. would mean i have to increase my FTP from 290 to 350 to be able to compete : \ thats gonna take months if not years to achieve
The question is, is that a desirable goal to achieve for you? Its all about having the required motivation. Imo its not worth it. Your numbers are already great.
That kinda the whole point isn't it? Aerobic improvement is a long game (For most of us non unicorn gene riders). It SHOULD take months/years to get there.
The most important thing is to have fun and to enjoy with other riders..I wouldn’t force it, once you get to B then you’ll struggle and find it not enjoyable or perhaps loose motivation, think about it.
Agree with the sentiment here. Ultimately you want to be impactful in your allotted category, and able to "race" and not just get dropped. Keep riding dude, assuming you are not limited by physiological factors you will slowly progress.
Sand bagging is happening through all the levels, just like a lot of masters riders are on testosterone, where you have competition you will always have cheats.
Guaranteed all riders in front of you are lying about their weight or holding back power. Zwift should make rider weight less relevant on the flat and reward raw power. A middle cat between A and B would be great too. I’ve given up on winning and just treat racing as a tough workout now. Still fun.
My vote is for Red A Category. Height is also a major factor on Zwift that I wonder if people are serious about. I am 188cm and that is not doing me any favours in the algorithm. Not everyone is going to win, and I accept that, but impact is the key. I want to be able to lead out riders, or bag some points in points races, but if you are spat out the back 5km in it's not much fun.
@@ModerateCyclistI have caught several influencers lying about their zwift height. The only reason I could catch them is because they post their IRL stats as part of their "jobs" as professional narcissists and apparently think no one will cross reference. I'm sure they're just the tip of the iceberg. That said, zwift's focus on power to weight (whether 5m or 60m) favors larger riders. I don't know if the CDA algorithm is perfect or not, but it at least somewhat carries over the real life effect that 4w/kg at 60kg is way less effective than 4w/kg at 80kg on flat or rolling terrain. Zwift doesn't apparently adjust draft effect based on relative rider size, which is one way smaller riders offset their disadvantage in real life. Some studies have shown that power^2/weight is a better predictor of race results. Zwift could use that to set categories, but even better would be to use race results.
B is a funny format. It is all about the 1m and 15s. But overall they are generally faster because of how many people are in them (monthlies especially).
Whatever it is, B just sucked a lot more this year compared to the year prior even after my fitness and race craft had improved. Races also suffer because everyone is gun shy to do a strong 20 minute effort too. It's just dump the tank racing which absolutely sucks when you are mid grade. Sub 20 way over power efforts get you a lot of climbs and sprints that blow the doors off the mid grade competition. Not to get too salty, I do also like being pushed and don't really care about race results. But the cat system needs work and everyone knows it.
It is very hard to make a break in Cat B. Largely because there is generally a lot of power resting in the peloton. You are better off just holding out until within the final 2km.
At the end of the day, power is power. Improvement in one will improve the other. But Zwift Racing and Road Racing are very different and we should hope for them to be exactly the same. I love doing long Gran Fondo road races, but couldn't imagine anything worse on Zwift. I love bunch sprinting at 13wkg on Zwift, but would fear for my life IRL.
Maybe just accept that you're a threshold Cat A/B rider. I've been there but then picked up an injury. The only thing Zwift could do is include more letters of the alphabet and narrow the bands of Categories, but you're always going to get riders at the bottom and top of a Category.
For now I am just going to follow my training plan, race hard, and do what Zwift tells me. I am hoping the Zwift Racing Score system will solve a lot of the concerns when it comes in.
Yeah I have been B for a long time but get dropped from the top B riders easily. But no wonder if I watch your race how you are able to hunt down breakaways that should not be possible for a normal b rider it’s all out all the time and we can’t easily go back and forth like you did it. So zwift really needs to have more categories as the fun goes down because people also like you prefer to stay b and not go to a as it’s not so cool to be dropped all the time. Welcome to the world of mid and low end of the category riders who always get dropped by a bunch of people who should be A
Thanks for sharing this perspective. It is fun when I go back to B, but it also doesn't feel fair sometimes. Strangely, despite feeling in control in this race, my ability to exceed the Cat B FTP is not really there.
I will be interested to see what ZRL looks like next month. That is usually the start of the racing season (as the summer comes to an end in the Northern Hemisphere).
@@ModerateCyclist I hope it goes up, right now in Chile we are in winter and there are very few runners, to the point that I removed the membership and went to indievelo
This video is all whining from somebody that wants to win a race and do not want to compete with people way better than him. The issue you mention is exactly the same for a D that just got promoted to C, or a C that just got in into B. Sure as you go up, going higher is always harder. The real issue with Zwift is what you are doing, A riders that want to stick to B and ruin it to all the real B riders. Maybe Zwift should have an A+ category for the pros. But at the end of the day there can only be a finite number of categories and each category there are people at the top that have a good shot at winning, and there are people at the bottom of that category that have no chance of winning. That's the way it is in Zwift and in the real world too. In the pro pelotons most riders have no chance of winning any race.
Thanks for watching. I worry you might have missed the point of my video. Good news is the new race score system seems set to balance things out a little better.
Definitely racing in A. As I mentioned in another comment, ZRL is happening at the moment, and with the 4 rider teams, there are now enough to have Divisions in the Oceanic region. Having A1 and A2 really gets the field right IMO. I agree that less populated races are not good, but I guess ultimately what I am saying is more Cat B riders should be in A.
That is in interesting concept. Although hard to enforce. I think that is what they tried to do when they made it "always on". Trying to stop people sandbagging races, whilst training like a pro.
Good stuff. Zwift Racing Score (and hence, results-based racing categories) can't launch soon enough. Looking forward to it.
Is it actually coming? I read your article about it, and it has been a while since. There is no longer any references to it in the product. I think it would make a lot of sense.
Yes, it’s coming. Look for news very soon on it in fact. (Also, Zwift isn’t our product. We’re just a fansite!)
Sorry I didn’t mean to type “your”. Where are you getting the intel on this from?
Contacts within ZHQ! Nothing public yet, but it’s coming very soon.
Forgive me if I sound like an idiot. I think that the better you are, the harder it is to improve and so as the levels get higher, the increase in requirements should be smaller. That the current category B could become Category C and the new category B could be a category that's halfway between the current B and A categories. I hope that makes sense.
Fundamentally I think you are right. The top is too broad.
To put it further, B should be broken up into two categories, with the upper category from about 3.8 - 4.2 ftp and a "lower" B of around 3.3-3.8, with the corresponding ZMAP and 1 minute power weighted into a formula.
As it is now, upper C riders don't want to go into B to race against A's. Competition in both B and C would be much better as a result
Pretty much like real life racing in the uk. The not so very top area (cat2) gets saturated with a wide range of abilities, you can end up going from great racing (cat3) to being hammer every single race by people who are in theory the same category as you.
It's well known fact about "upper B"... They will deliberately avoid any TT, threshold, FTP test effort, throttle the power to stay 20minute power below 4.2 wk/g to avoid A upgrade, while hiddenly they can put 8-9 w/kg 1 minute power to win.
put those "sandbag B" in the real test, most of them will get upgraded.
Other side of equation. A is too tough, and not many people race in the field. I can see why I and people want to just stay in the B, it's a lot more fun.
I always think 5 and 1 minute power should be included in caterory factor for typical race, not 20 minute power (reserve that for TT and montain climbs). 5 minute power already pretty well correlate with your ability for 20 minute power. if we include 1 minute or 15s max power as a criteria, that will be a lot more fair for racing.
This! I am bouncing around high B and Low A. Racing B is great, loads of players. But one uphill TT, which I like to do, and I am back in A cat. Empty pens there and the players that are there from time to time are either cheating or A+.
@@RideWithGerben your "cheater radar force" is always strong 😆🤣
Actually zMAP (which is pretty much 5 min power) is already used, just not advertised. I was upgraded to B from C even though my FTP was still low. I might even get enforced to A if I killed myself on a 5 min effort and have held 10W/kg for 30 sec in a long sprint, yet my FTP is genuinely middle-of-the-B-pack (3.6-3.7)
@@eloann yes i know zMAP. 5 minute power is around 120% of your potental ftp . It's more like most riders never have enough leg freshness, endurance (on high sustained power and commitment to do proper long threshold (20-60 minute) ftp test.
@@benjapolcycling LOLLLLLL
Its called Sandbagging and 8 out 10 of the top 10 finishers in A,B and C races are Sandbaggers.
Who is sandbagging A? Definitely agree about the others though!
@@ModerateCyclist The pros a sandbagging A, they should not race mere mortals.
@ModerateCyclist typo...did not mean to put A on that list ..Good catch.
Thanks for this. I’m between C and B cat most of the time. I’m 67kg with no top end power (1 min is 5w/kg / never broken 600 watts in a sprint). I usually get upgraded to B off the back of TT results where I can ride at 3.4W/kg. I’m 56 and have approx 6 hours a week to train so significant improvement is difficult. I’m dropped very quickly in most B races - I just can’t sustain the requisite power on the climbs. I normally race very flat B races or TTs until I get downgraded back into C. I think a system of progression based on wins/ podiums/ placings could work or split categories for B and C with distinct A and A plus categories too. There is definitely a lot of deliberate sandbagging going on at the top of B and probably C too. I’m sure that Zwift love the prime time mayhem and large fields so don’t have an incentive to change. I’m happy to ride in B but would prefer a system that better used rider data to establish category. Thanks for the video, really good to see someone having an honest conversation about where they think they should be and the shortcomings of the current system.
Sounds like you are in a similar position. It is tough being on the border. I wonder if there could be seasons with promotion and relegation at the end of the season based less on individual performances, but more relative to the field.
I am in a similar position. 55Yr, but a bit heavier at 83kg. I can hold most CAT B races, so long as there isn't too much climb. I'm right on the lower threshold. But I prefer to push myself in B, so even when Zwift drops me back to C, I continue to ride in B - I'm going to get graded back in to B sooner or later anyway, so I might as well just race B. I have no hope of winning a B race - or even coming close. But it is fun and I get a good workout.
To use an Australian expression - We aren't playing for sheep stations here 😄
I'm in roughly the same boat -- 58 yr old, well below average recreational cyclist forced to race in B against folks like @ModerateCyclist. Being older my power curve is pretty flat and I am totally lacking the 1-5 min power needed to effectively even hang on in B races. The insane thing is that apparently if I could just manage to pull off a higher 3-5 minute power somewhere I might get demoted to C, but I just can't make it happen. I would like people at the top who are cruising and talking about "race craft" to know what's it like to be at the bottom of the cat. It is a profoundly different experience for us cat "losers" down here. Zwift have been running their own version of the Stanford prison experiments for sure.
@@GarthSomerville just seen a racing score appear on my companion app profile. Zwift Labs are running some new test events based on race scores. Events are scheduled now, I’ve joined the Zwift Labs club on the app where they can be found. Not sure if this will work but at least it’s some sort of attempt to categorise by results rather than 20 min power.
Thanks Garth, this is an important perspective to share. I don't quite understand what you are saying about higher 3-5m power to get demoted, it would be great if you could explain more. I agree it seems off-balance that we get put into the same category. That said, I think if all riders with a power profile exceeding the top got moved up, it would make Cat B more hospitable for those through the middle of the range.
TFC Mad Monday races split thr categories. Theres Mad A which is for 4.85+wkg, mid a 4.37-4.84, mad b 3.96-4.36, mid b 3.58-3.95, etc. It's fun to race against others much closer in fitness.
I like this take. Not sure if the time zones would work for me. Maybe could do the US one... How many do they get?
@@ModerateCyclist only the two races, EU and US. It would be awesome if other races would copy this concept.
Can't believe you "only" have 874 subscriber... such a good content, and high quality video... keep on!!!
Thanks mate, I really appreciate comments like this!
I have half a dozen mates who ride competitively in A in club races (in real life), but can easily sandbag in B on Zwift. If you sit in and just sprint, it's not difficult to stay out of the grading system's algorithm.
Perhaps more factors need to be included in the grading equation - a certain number of podiums in a given time pushes you up a grade, etc?
I think this is right on point.
When I do ramp tests it pushes up my 5 min power but not 20m. It actually reduces my zftp because it steepens my power curve. My ramp test outcome will calculate an ftp of 340w meanwhile my zftp is under 310.
I think this is part of the problem. A ramp test will over impact your zMAP, but never change your zFTP.
I think dynamic, performance based categories, the way IndieVelo does it make the most sense. Basing it on “fitness” numbers that people can easily manipulate doesn’t really make sense. How you perform in races should be what decides the category you are in.
I think this makes sense, and aligns with most other competitive gaming platforms.
Zwift math is a wild place.
A friend and I have done a lot of work trying to understand it. We both are B+ and have bounced around the top end of B for a long time, yet neither of us have gotten into A for more than a few days
I once did a breakaway where I averaged 350 for 22 minutes or so. I got the A upgrade with a 4.2 wkg average. zFTP of 340.
The next day I did a 6 minute Petite KOM effort at roughly 400 watts/4.9 wkg and went back to B with a zFTP of 325.
What is B+
@drewbuffington B+ is exactly what the video is stating.
The group of riders at the top of a category that can exceed the bottom of the next category but not trip the Zwift Cat upgrade.
And I race in an attacking style, not sit in and sprint.
@@brianwhite9 That’s just a B. It’s clearly explained in the rules that “if your zFTP (watts) value falls in a lower pace group than your zMAP(w/kg) or zFTP(w/kg), you’ll also be able to enter the group where your zFTP(watts) falls. Its not that complicated. It’s because w/kg isn’t the only determiner for speed in Zwift. RAW watts matter too even on climbs.
@drewbuffington I honestly disagree with the hard set rules you reference from Zwift. We can debate back and forth on this.
I have raced with guys who hit 4.4 or better repeatedly in B races and they stay there.
It is not cut and dry as you think
@@brianwhite9 4.4 what? 20min? Total?
Tough doing those indoor ramps.. If zwift looked at my outside races/time trials I would definitely fall into A, but indoors I can't replicate that same power. I normally only ride indoors after taking time off from my outdoor race season, which is partly the reason..
That will do it. They are very different styles of riding. I am trying to apply the constant power of Zwift to my outdoor riding for more consistent power/speed. But I can definitely produce bigger watts outdoors.
Having spent a few years in Cat A, winning regularly, I would often not be surprised to see Cat B riders mixing in the sprints at the end of mixed races. Or, sometimes even checking ZwiftPower and seeing that the Cat B's finished the race faster than us Cat A's.
Atter a lengthy illness I'm now working to regain my fitness and have dropped to CAT B.
I'm finding the issues with the categories are not power related, but rather ego or race craft related.
I say all.the time that it's not always the strongest rider that wins the race. As highlighted at the end of your Cat B racee here.
If have stayed with the pack, made the most of the Aero gains from the pack and saved those efforts for the end.
I find that folksnin A tend to race far smarter than those in B.
I agree with you about B riders in A. I enjoy Points races because they often have early sprints where you can get in the mix, without having to stay with the bunch for the full race. I think when Cat B finishes faster than Cat A it's because of the number of riders.
I absolutely agree on the craft reflection. I am guilty of racing dumb in the race in this video. But my intention was to lay down a lot of power for the purposes of this video. It is a bit of a catch 22 though. It's hard to build your race craft when you get upgraded to A and never see a finish again.
I think you just described every cat up from D
It's kind of true. A just has no ceiling.
I do feel for B riders who don't have good VO2 max. I am currently sitting on 4.36 for 20 mins and am still classified B. I had a couple of months off and finding competitive races at the times I like to ride is difficult. I did a KISS race last friday with the As that was intense but the climbs were only 3.5 minutes @ 5.3W/kg so didn't improve my recent 5min power. I personaly enjoy the challenge of riding in A cat but have been disappointed that there have been so few A riders for most events and given the option of riding with 4 A Cats vs 30 B Cats I go with the later
20m power alone won't upgrade you, it is not enough to move your zFTP figure. Riding over 5.1wkg for 5m is also super hard in a race setting. 100% agree on the lack of riders in Cat A races.
I kinda like being on the stronger end of the Cat B races and being able to make significant attacks or work to pull back breaks and not just hanging on for dear life
💯 keeps it interesting!
Sounds like they need to add another category: like a+,A,BC ? The other trouble with 5 minute power and or ftp test, is people can easily compromise the test, by not exceeding the numbers they want to stay in B?
Seems like we are getting our wish. Racing score should help address this concern.
As a low A myself it’s tough and what’s worse is since Autocat there are almost no riders in A races so can’t even get a race in (in Sydney Timezone) and I’ve almost given up bothering racing on Zwift. I can win the odd race as I have very good short term and sprint power and that is what’s keeping me in A unfortunately. Ultimately it’s a video game and a workout platform.
It will be interesting to see what happens with all the new players in the market. MyWhoosh are making quite a play at the racing scene. Your experience matches mine. I can win Cat A races depending on which other 3 people show up 😜
i'm an upper B rider *trying* to get that A upgrade, and I'm about 20 watts off on the 40 minute and 5 minute power. I need 395 for 5 mins and am on 368, and am on 315 for 40 mins, but i need 335.
So looks like I am really safe for a while, and can keep getting top 5 in B races with 4.0/4.1/4.2. Which is kind of getting dull, so I enter A races with the mission not to get dropped / finish last, as it's more of a challenge.
If there was a red A only category, that would be perfect for me. It's the black A's that get me dropped.
Totally agree i'm at the same place with watts/kg and have an easy time with most all B races. the black A just kill me in the A races. I can sprint with the best but my FTP just needs to be higher.
I wouldn't rush to get into A. It will come eventually. I have found I need to build my FTP to 4.5 to be loosely impactful in A. Lean in on ZRL and the alike for Cat B, and drop into some Cat A Monthlies with friends to push yourself. 100% agree though, Red A would be awesome.
@@ModerateCyclist Thanks! Yeah, I think it will take a few more weeks. Just averaged 4.2 w/kg for the AHDR 'The Chop' pursuit race.
On holiday next week, so guessing I'll drop a few watts and start building again next month.
I raced 'elite without contract' level in NL/BE in 2008, 10 kilos lighter and 16 years younger than I am now.
That explains your fire. You will get there, or if you are in a hurry just do a ramp test 😜
@@ModerateCyclist ha ha, just got promoted after finishing in the first group of an A race. If it's reasonably flat my 328 FTP means I have no problems.
I've bounced between B and C recently. For me C races are no fun because if it's long enough, I can usually just ride away from the pack if I want to. Even as a C, I'd often race B. At 90+ kilos, I can't do much on real hills, but I can often hang with good B riders on flat or rolling courses. I'll never get upgraded unless I lose a lot of weight, and I don't have much weight I can lose: I once measured 8-9% body fat at 85 kilos when I was younger, so that's something of a floor. I've decided to just have fun with it and do my best. Flat races, I'll race up front. But I'll even do hilly or mountainous races, even though mid-pack is the absolute best I can hope for. It's just about fun and fitness and doing my best.
I agree it’s all about having fun. IMO you need to be engaged in a race. Off the front is not fun, off the back is not fun. As long as you can find a grade where you are in the bunch no matter where you cross the line that is the best spot.
I like mass start events. As for racing below ability. I tend to race a lot but in order to do that i dont go all out 100%, else i just overtrain and end up really drained.
I think the new race score is a much better approach. Sometimes races are more about tactics than pure power. The more you win the higher you should go.
An alternative approach might be to have races where risers are split up into 4 or 5 or 6 groups based on FTP etc. The top group might contain the top 25% of riders, the second group the next 25% etc. In this way as a rider you would get a mix of races, sometimes you'd be at the top of the group you end up in and competing for the win, other times you'd be at the bottom and just trying to hold onto the front group. This would also remove the incentive for people to 'hide' and make it harder to game the system.
This seems to be what is coming with the racing points system. It makes it possible for "losing" to actually be "winning" when it is against tougher competition.
I'm in B, and I am a B racer (ftp is like 3.9). But currently I don't even know if I want to upgrade to A because there're almost no riders in each race
Better don’t. I’m Cat A and haven’t done proper race since March, simply there’s 3 max 4 people per race. I’d gladly go to B
This is massively this case with ZRacing Monthlies. ZRL and the alike has bigger fields, but with bigger fields comes even stronger riders.
They should go base in HR at said threshold power. If a 30 year old rider is winning a B race averaging 3.8 wpk but his average HR is 130 beats then hes obviously sandbagging the B race.
Haha, I would probably be in Cat D with those rules
It’s not hard for B’s to draft A’s and win, which is why I always go up in a mix race. I don’t think there are any A’s over 80kg
As long as they are not the A's that ride at 5wkg for long periods of time.
The fact that there are literally people riding a bicycle shaped game controller in their living room and huffing and grunting at their TV is hilarious. Just when you thought roadies were max cringe they go even harder.
Thanks for watching Don
Add weight to the problem with cat B and fixed w/KG limits. Try a 4.2w/kg 65 kg rider vs a 4.2w/kg 95kg rider - who will win? Flat - the heavy rider by a large margin. Climb - still the heavy rider, but only by a small margin. Most of the best B riders have big numbers, and alot of kilos.
I think this is what keeps a lot of riders in B too. Not to mention most casual races feature very little elevation, which never gives lighter riders a chance to leverage their advantage. That said, I have a young guy in my race team who has a FTP of 4.6wkg, but he is not heavy enough to move up from Cat C. He can keep pace with Cat A through everything other than bunch sprints.
Late, but whatever. :P This is exactly my problem. I'm a VERY low Cat B rider that looks for any and all races that actually have appreciable elevation - I can hold 3.5-4 w/kg (4 being if there's elevation, because the added resistance helps a ton to keep my power up when doing my high-gear-ratio/out of saddle climbing) for a race, but given that my weight is 64 kg, my measly 230-250 watts isn't doing crap save getting me dropped on the flats. My worst performances are typically on flat routes or those that feature descents - even with the most aero and heavy of bikes, I can't keep up with guys that push out 300+ watts at 3.2 w/kg!!
ZRL seems to have got the message this year with my variation in the route choices. Ideally there are stages for all specialties. Hopefully the same continues more broadly across the platform.
Sounds like there is space for another category but also Worth remembering that even at the professional level most the riders starting the race don’t stand a chance of winning.
A lot of interesting things Zwift could try to solve. Such as handicapping by certain number of seconds based on your power curve and/or play with the aerodynamics to handicap (stronger riders get less draft)
They could also try to factor in % of your best power curve, as in maybe the elastic band is harder to snap if you’re both doing similar percentages of your max for a given time frame. Difficult to optimise as you wouldn’t want to lose a sprint doing 1500 to someone doing 600 because both are 100% but that way stronger riders who begin to reveal their true signature as they get dropped or the finish approaches wouldn’t benefit as they’d still just be at 100%
Ultimately I don't think it is about winning. It's about being able to be in the race. It feels much better getting dropped on the final climb, or losing a bunch sprint, than being spat out the back 5m into the race.
The flaw isn’t the categorisation. It’s the lack of tough courses. Too short climbs. If there was races with high 8 min plus steep gradient climbs you’d have much harder racing. Instead it’s just sit on and sprint with the odd couple of 2 min punchy climbs. When was the last time you did a 20 min climb full gas in a Zwift race?
This is very true. For so many the ZMonthies are the primary races, and they are designed to be accessible. ZRL pushes the threshold a little more. We saw some guys upgraded this week as a result of the final climb.
Idealy you have 20 categories, so slimmer is the gap between them. But then the races will be different. I only see a ranking system with a set number of riders as possibility for this.
Example:
Each race starts with 50 people. The ranking devides everyone into sets of 50. The amount of riders that are left make up for the last "cat". In this way you have the more riders starting the race, the better it will fit your ability. You get ranked on your performance after that race.
To add onto that: racing A cat as a B cat is the way to improve your racecraft. The way you are able to close all the gaps to each breakaway is remarkable.
My 20 min power is not reaching 4,3 at all. But I am able to win with 3,4 w/kg.
I think this style of grading is coming, based on what the Zwift Insider guys are saying.
This is essentially how bike racing works on the road, you move up and suffer.
Totally right with that one. I think there is a lot Zwift could learn from how real world racing does categories.
Can you share your mobile image for using your camera? Nice.
I just use Canva and their in-built library to make my supers.
I picked up cycling, I did a cat D race as a noob and boom upgraded to cat C! I was like, what!? 😮 Never raced again! 😂
I would have expected the opposite. It's time you got your race on!
But how?? 😮 Just wondering: Did you win it? What's your new detected FTP that pushed you up?
W/kg is only any good for uphill races. As a 60kg cat B rider I have to normally ride at sweet spot for most of the races
I’ve just finished your video. You should be cat A. You are sandbagging and one of those who I struggle to follow as a lightweight in Cat B whilst I’m near-threshold for half an hour.
However, the categories should be based on performance and not a one-dimensional test. Just like real life Categories.
Pros and cons of weight. We have a few younger guys on our team who have massive wkg FTPs but only weight 50kg. They will crush you on climbs, but will struggle to hold the wheel in sprints.
I am prepared to take your claim on the chin. But it is a really fine line. What constitutes sandbagging. I have switched from ramp tests to 20m FTP tests because I need to get better riding off ERG mode. I am racing as hard as I can, definitely not pulling any punches. I am going to go where Zwift puts me until they flip into the new racing score system.
@@ModerateCyclist you are definitely right that the categorisation doesn’t work well. They should really do a points system.
I stopped using Zwift because the racing is demoralising when I’m smashing 4w/kg for 20/30 mins and finishing back of the pack and spent in cat B. And that’s racing sensibly
@@ModerateCyclist another big problem is that drafting just isn’t realistic. As a smaller guy I can happily sit in a pack at 40kph and chill. Zwift say that the physics they’ve used accurate but I just don’t get it. Maybe it’s because you don’t get the physical sensation of being pulled along by the vortex of a bunch 🤷♂️
Anyway, I enjoyed the vid 👏
Definitely not an easy thing to do. With any handicap system, the winners of one category would nearly always be fine racing in the next one up, you just have to accept that. In the case of cycling you have a problem of different rider profiles and different race types, and vastly different race participant amounts, making it almost impossible to settle on anything fair.
As someone who races in off hours, I think it would make the most sense to combine a and b and just have the results split, but that would probably really annoy the prime time racers with large fields. But that way getting the a promotion would be see as an upgrade not a downgrade, because it makes it clear winning b is a really just someone losing to the A’s.
That is a really interesting concept. Running combined A+B races. This is a little bit like how the big events like Tour de Zwift work... I agree that you are always going to have riders on the threshold of a category. I think it only becomes a problem when there is no top (as in the case of A).
It's not a problem of cat B, it's a problem of cat A. I felt pretty good in cat B and the field was pretty fair and equal. But once you get into A it's like the wild west. All from 4.1 to 6 wkg in the same bag. Cheaters are way worse than the sandbaggers in B. In A, you have to grow up to at least to 4.5wkg to have any chance surviving.
Agreed. I think 4.5wkg can compete in A.
Ramp overestimated my FTP by about 60-70W, I wouldn’t touch it with a 10m pole.
I agree that ramp tests are not the most accurate measure. I use it because it is the yard stick I have been using. But I am considering maybe flipping to 20m tests instead.
I’m now on my whoosh (I’m only doing structured trainings from the coach and don’t race). I’m using power passport protocol and it’s dead accurate, completely neglects my overpowered low end.
I’m going to have to check it out. Good having some healthy competition between the platforms.
Interesting Video, i feel they should've kept B up to 3.99, A 4-4.5 and A+ 4.5 and above. However there's probably a good reason they've picked the splits the way they have 🤷. I used to be a top B rider who occasionally raced in A, but i would be lucky to stay in the pack. The jump is too big due to the top level not having a ceiling.
I mean if Tadej were to jump into a race, he would be in Cat A... just saying.
Thank you for sharing! I don't look forward to being forced into the "A" category mainly because there are so few riders when compared to "B." The category enforcement system is quite faulty, but I don't see any indication that Zwift cares enough to make it a priority over adding silly content.
I have some gentle feedback: it's pretty difficult to hear your commentary over the music. When the music dies down a little bit I can hear you decently. Would you consider lowering the volume of the music track in future videos so the audience has a better chance at understanding you? Thank you again for sharing your experience!
I agree with you about Zwifts priorities. Although if they went Red A Black A, and pushed more upper B into Red A I think there would be better balance. Also thank you for the feedback on the audio. I will make note for future videos.
Zwift categories are deeply flawed, for many reasons. Also the ZRaces are short (usually on flat) efforts that rarely push people to the limits for more for a few seconds (maybe up to a 2min max effort at best). If you want to see more competitive races try one using the Zwift racing app categories. The difference is noticeable and much more fun races. DIRT and FRR use them. Hopefully Zwift will roll out racing score sooner than later and will help a bit.
Seems like they are coming...
Isn’t it normal you find it more difficult when you upgrade from cat
No arguments there, I think it is more a question of when and who should be upgraded.
Cool video. Consider decreasing the music volume a bit to make it easier to hear you.
Thank you, feedback note. As a matter of interest, how did you watch the video (as in what was the sound coming out of)?
@@ModerateCyclist On TV through Chromecast :)
@@jokakiller85 thanks Jonas, I will make sure I do TV testing for the next one.
bruh im in the top of cat C now, my FTP is already into cat B territory.
There is no way i can get close to 4.0w/KG average.
would mean i have to increase my FTP from 290 to 350 to be able to compete : \
thats gonna take months if not years to achieve
The question is, is that a desirable goal to achieve for you? Its all about having the required motivation. Imo its not worth it. Your numbers are already great.
That kinda the whole point isn't it? Aerobic improvement is a long game (For most of us non unicorn gene riders). It SHOULD take months/years to get there.
The most important thing is to have fun and to enjoy with other riders..I wouldn’t force it, once you get to B then you’ll struggle and find it not enjoyable or perhaps loose motivation, think about it.
Agree with the sentiment here. Ultimately you want to be impactful in your allotted category, and able to "race" and not just get dropped. Keep riding dude, assuming you are not limited by physiological factors you will slowly progress.
@@ModerateCyclist funny looking back at this since my FTP is now 4.0 w/kg lmao
Sand bagging is happening through all the levels, just like a lot of masters riders are on testosterone, where you have competition you will always have cheats.
I think you are right. If a loophole exists then it will be exploited.
Guaranteed all riders in front of you are lying about their weight or holding back power.
Zwift should make rider weight less relevant on the flat and reward raw power.
A middle cat between A and B would be great too.
I’ve given up on winning and just treat racing as a tough workout now. Still fun.
My vote is for Red A Category. Height is also a major factor on Zwift that I wonder if people are serious about. I am 188cm and that is not doing me any favours in the algorithm. Not everyone is going to win, and I accept that, but impact is the key. I want to be able to lead out riders, or bag some points in points races, but if you are spat out the back 5km in it's not much fun.
@@ModerateCyclistI have caught several influencers lying about their zwift height. The only reason I could catch them is because they post their IRL stats as part of their "jobs" as professional narcissists and apparently think no one will cross reference. I'm sure they're just the tip of the iceberg.
That said, zwift's focus on power to weight (whether 5m or 60m) favors larger riders. I don't know if the CDA algorithm is perfect or not, but it at least somewhat carries over the real life effect that 4w/kg at 60kg is way less effective than 4w/kg at 80kg on flat or rolling terrain. Zwift doesn't apparently adjust draft effect based on relative rider size, which is one way smaller riders offset their disadvantage in real life. Some studies have shown that power^2/weight is a better predictor of race results. Zwift could use that to set categories, but even better would be to use race results.
There are many races when the B winner could podium on A
B is a funny format. It is all about the 1m and 15s. But overall they are generally faster because of how many people are in them (monthlies especially).
Whatever it is, B just sucked a lot more this year compared to the year prior even after my fitness and race craft had improved.
Races also suffer because everyone is gun shy to do a strong 20 minute effort too. It's just dump the tank racing which absolutely sucks when you are mid grade. Sub 20 way over power efforts get you a lot of climbs and sprints that blow the doors off the mid grade competition.
Not to get too salty, I do also like being pushed and don't really care about race results. But the cat system needs work and everyone knows it.
It is very hard to make a break in Cat B. Largely because there is generally a lot of power resting in the peloton. You are better off just holding out until within the final 2km.
Zwift needs to make an elite category for the 5kg plus, Then A riders can fall between be 4kg to 4.9kg.
A+ is already this, although it starts at 4.84wkg
You won't have enough riders unfortunately
How do you take any racing on zwift seriously, with all the silly things allowed to reduce time that have nothing to do with real racing.
At the end of the day, power is power. Improvement in one will improve the other. But Zwift Racing and Road Racing are very different and we should hope for them to be exactly the same.
I love doing long Gran Fondo road races, but couldn't imagine anything worse on Zwift.
I love bunch sprinting at 13wkg on Zwift, but would fear for my life IRL.
Good video , and welcome back to A.
Thanks mate, I will be honest it doesn't feel right "going back to B".
Maybe just accept that you're a threshold Cat A/B rider. I've been there but then picked up an injury. The only thing Zwift could do is include more letters of the alphabet and narrow the bands of Categories, but you're always going to get riders at the bottom and top of a Category.
I think you are right. For ZRL this season I am just going to split the difference. Ride B until I get bumped back up.
Just race FRR, properly smaller categories bands that are fairly competetive among each other.
For now I am just going to follow my training plan, race hard, and do what Zwift tells me. I am hoping the Zwift Racing Score system will solve a lot of the concerns when it comes in.
Yeah I have been B for a long time but get dropped from the top B riders easily. But no wonder if I watch your race how you are able to hunt down breakaways that should not be possible for a normal b rider it’s all out all the time and we can’t easily go back and forth like you did it. So zwift really needs to have more categories as the fun goes down because people also like you prefer to stay b and not go to a as it’s not so cool to be dropped all the time. Welcome to the world of mid and low end of the category riders who always get dropped by a bunch of people who should be A
Thanks for sharing this perspective. It is fun when I go back to B, but it also doesn't feel fair sometimes. Strangely, despite feeling in control in this race, my ability to exceed the Cat B FTP is not really there.
Zwift is dead with in price increases, 100rider x event vs 5 x event , the level now is down
I will be interested to see what ZRL looks like next month. That is usually the start of the racing season (as the summer comes to an end in the Northern Hemisphere).
@@ModerateCyclist I hope it goes up, right now in Chile we are in winter and there are very few runners, to the point that I removed the membership and went to indievelo
This video is all whining from somebody that wants to win a race and do not want to compete with people way better than him. The issue you mention is exactly the same for a D that just got promoted to C, or a C that just got in into B. Sure as you go up, going higher is always harder. The real issue with Zwift is what you are doing, A riders that want to stick to B and ruin it to all the real B riders. Maybe Zwift should have an A+ category for the pros. But at the end of the day there can only be a finite number of categories and each category there are people at the top that have a good shot at winning, and there are people at the bottom of that category that have no chance of winning. That's the way it is in Zwift and in the real world too. In the pro pelotons most riders have no chance of winning any race.
Thanks for watching. I worry you might have missed the point of my video. Good news is the new race score system seems set to balance things out a little better.
@@ModerateCyclist New score system looks good indeed.
If your goal is to up your FTP to 4.5 you should just stop crying and race A CAT. It’s hard for everyone. More categories = less populated race. LAME.
Definitely racing in A. As I mentioned in another comment, ZRL is happening at the moment, and with the 4 rider teams, there are now enough to have Divisions in the Oceanic region. Having A1 and A2 really gets the field right IMO. I agree that less populated races are not good, but I guess ultimately what I am saying is more Cat B riders should be in A.
How about a compulsory periodic Zwift FTP test like a random drug test to be able to keep racing.
That is in interesting concept. Although hard to enforce. I think that is what they tried to do when they made it "always on". Trying to stop people sandbagging races, whilst training like a pro.