Michael Levin's work is fantastic, his lab have brought a whole-organism view back into biology. The experiments with the flatworm heads he mentions in this interview are truly astonishing, his lab also published on frog cells that had formed a sort of novel collective that possessed a kind of intelligence...* Levin's work shows how limited the more robotic, selfish gene view of biology really is. *Shocking to most biologists because many labs treat organisms as automatons that function solely to produce data for papers...
It is groundbreaking work, and I'm very happy for the more "holonic" view of organisms as collective intelligences. At the same time, I've noticed that he uses computer terms for describing organisms (machines, calculations, etc). I even heard him say something like there not being much difference between a computer and an organism, and that our knowledge about computing should be applied to biology. He also seems to be into ideas like biohacking and immortality. Xenobots are also pretty freaky, at least the idea of self-propagating "wet" robots. And with degrees of consciousness all the way down, I sense Utalitarianism lurking around the corner. So I'm a little ambivalent and skeptical to this guy and his work, however fascinating it is. Like most groundbreaking new technologies, I think it could go both ways.
Michael Levin is a powerful leader and so willing to share his paradigm changing research. I hope the elders in his field give him the freedom and respect to continue standing on the shoulders of giants.
This conversation did not disappoint - I have listened to either one of you several times. Even as a layperson not embedded in a scientific field, I find it quite easy to follow the gist of your conversation, which to me speaks of how solidly both of you are ankered in your fields, yet refreshingly curious and open to the other's perspective. The trajectory of Michael's experiments I find scary though, while I find Iain's insights and possible solutions to our societal dilemma a ray of hope.
People are generally so negative about the influence of technology, but it allowed me to spend the first hour of my day listening to these two incredible people.
@@xmathmanxI'm not religious, so I don't think so. I don't see what that has to do with tech being a double-edged sword, though. I think it's pretty obvious, but if you want to believe otherwise, feel free.
Two of my favorite thinkers together! I'm showing my age but this for me is like having concert tickets to a Pink Floyd / Jethro Tull double header. :)
Fantastic conversation! Thank you! More would definitely be appreciated. I, for one, would love to see a conversation with Donald Hoffman. His take on reality is fascinating!
A real pleasure listening to this , I am always happy when there is that, which ,I can take from( ,so to speak) . Discovery gives meaning . I have fresh thoughts that I wouldn't have had on my own . Thanks .
I so very much enjoyed your conversation with Michael Levin, i believe he is someone unique his way of seeing the world and a great interlocutor in to you. I'm very much looking forward to your next conversation with him! Might i suggest also reaching out to John Vervaeke? He is someone that i believe might have something significant to contribute in conversation with you. He has a very great understanding as to the philosophical history of the west (and how it relates to other cultures) that you might be delighted to learn from.
Great to see a djembe and bongoes behind Michael. Drumming is a great way to let go of left side thinking, potentially opening the mind for creative thoughts/solutions.
Mr. McGilchrist something is up with the microphone input some noise, I suggest you to listen to your output via a headphone first so you can know how you sound.
Bioelectricity is one component of what I call "The Tetrahedron of Transduction", the others being Biomagnetism, Bioelelectromagnetism & Biophonics, life is a transductive process.
I have mentioned this before, though I certainly don’t mean it to be a refutation of the hemisphere hypothesis in any way, but an origin of asymmetry, in the brain anyway, it would seem to me, to make sense in terms of sleep. I.e dolphins and swifts (who live for long periods on the wing) apparently sleep one hemisphere at a time; that makes a LOT of sense. I dare say this has been addressed in some depth re the hemisphere hypothesis, but I don’t recall as much
Experience changes you, remember that you lifted weights for 5 years, or lift and don’t remember. I’ll take the process over the product as it’s process that grows and transforms you. We don’t win races at the finish line, we win in practice and DURING the race. I’ll take experience over memory as experience cannot be whittled down to memory
I would love to hear thoughts related to local energy environment, EM, and memory... epigenetics, speciation...related to the energy integration of Earth's atmosphere and energy, information from space.
Maybe this is redundant, but these perspectives resonate well with Gregory Bateson's ecological concept of mind, which is distributed rather than localized in an isolated brain model.
Intrigued by the idea of another mouse's memory being inserted into another mouse that has not had that experience but that it expresses the reaction of that experience. So a question - might there not be an external influence of imagination that can be inserted equally powerfully. For example, might a phobia/fear override a mechanically inserted/injected piece of cellular memory? When there are two (or more, like attention) options of intervention in a biological process, can physical sciences ever claim certainty?
Is ambivalence related to the right brain? It seems like it helps us to counteract the left brain's influence. Looking at the big picture, context, and true meaning seem to be the ways we interpret the world from an ambivalent perspective, and temper our actions with wisdom so to speak.
The master is dual to the emissary -- the divided brain. The master is dual to the apprentice -- the rule of two, Darth Bane, Sith lord. Teacher (master, lordship, client) is dual to the pupil (slave, bondsman, server) -- the Hegelian dialectic. Symmetric wave functions (Bosons, waves) are dual to anti-symmetric wave functions (Fermions, particles) -- quantum duality. Negentropy is syntropy! "Entropy is a measure of randomness" -- Roger Penrose. Syntropy is a measure of order. Making predictions to track targets, goals & objectives is a syntropy process -- teleological. Syntropy (prediction) is dual to increasing entropy -- the 4th law of thermodynamics! Teleological physics (syntropy) is dual to non-teleological (entropy). Entropy is dual to evolution (syntropy) -- Janna Levin, astrophysicist. "Always two there are" -- Yoda.
22.02 Michel Levins question - when experimenting with DMT as you return to this reality you are at a boarder between knowing everything you want about your eternal existence and this finite one - a very strange place to inhabit
Iain sure does like to hear himself talk. A wonderful conversation in all other respects, but I kept wishing Iain had the capacity to speak with greater clarity and fewer detailed references to his own work, which costs hundreds of dollars, and hundreds of hours, to read. (Michael Levin is infinitely more accessible by contrast.)
I, like the other commenters, saw this as a fruitful discussion. Yet, for me there was quite a lot of sword play going on. Of course that is how it should be. I found McG. was mainly scouting around for the first 30 minutes or so before engaging fully, choosing flow versus discontinuity as the weapon of choice. Very rewarding, yet my insight is one sided. I have been studying McGilchrist for about 3 years, yet I know nothing really about Levin’s research other than the pop headlines.
Yes. I think Levin thinks and speaks very quickly and always goes back to empirical evidence...he's obviously very brilliant. I think McG was perhaps trying to broaden things out into meaning but they seemed to settle into better synchronicity.. probably more to do with McG not being familiar with Levin's field of specialty.
Structure and function and meaning. The structure reflects the meaning of being. Cosmic meaning reflects a cosmic consciousness an awareness at the being level a trinitarian unity experience , the perennial mystical experience posited as the next stage in our evolution. The question of the human condition can’t be answered by the egoic awareness conscious state from which it evolves.
Mutual respect, humility and curiosity make for an upward spiral in discussion, thank you gentlemen.
Two of my favorite people in a very unexpected collab. Can't wait for this.
Michael Levin's work is fantastic, his lab have brought a whole-organism view back into biology. The experiments with the flatworm heads he mentions in this interview are truly astonishing, his lab also published on frog cells that had formed a sort of novel collective that possessed a kind of intelligence...* Levin's work shows how limited the more robotic, selfish gene view of biology really is.
*Shocking to most biologists because many labs treat organisms as automatons that function solely to produce data for papers...
It is groundbreaking work, and I'm very happy for the more "holonic" view of organisms as collective intelligences. At the same time, I've noticed that he uses computer terms for describing organisms (machines, calculations, etc). I even heard him say something like there not being much difference between a computer and an organism, and that our knowledge about computing should be applied to biology. He also seems to be into ideas like biohacking and immortality. Xenobots are also pretty freaky, at least the idea of self-propagating "wet" robots. And with degrees of consciousness all the way down, I sense Utalitarianism lurking around the corner. So I'm a little ambivalent and skeptical to this guy and his work, however fascinating it is. Like most groundbreaking new technologies, I think it could go both ways.
Michael Levin is a powerful leader and so willing to share his paradigm changing research. I hope the elders in his field give him the freedom and respect to continue standing on the shoulders of giants.
This conversation did not disappoint - I have listened to either one of you several times. Even as a layperson not embedded in a scientific field, I find it quite easy to follow the gist of your conversation, which to me speaks of how solidly both of you are ankered in your fields, yet refreshingly curious and open to the other's perspective. The trajectory of Michael's experiments I find scary though, while I find Iain's insights and possible solutions to our societal dilemma a ray of hope.
To what social dilemma are you referring, Fraü?
Amazing conversation. Thank you both
A discussion i have been waiting for.
I understood about 5% of this. But my life is immeasurably richer as a consequence. 😊
Fascinating interview and meeting. Thanks for this I learnt so much from you both!
People are generally so negative about the influence of technology, but it allowed me to spend the first hour of my day listening to these two incredible people.
It's a double-edged sword
@@ximono nope, there is no reason to be negative here, we have a fantastic resource available to us
@@xmathmanxIgnorance is bliss, I guess :)
@@ximonoyou think a stupid homily will help you in some way?
@@xmathmanxI'm not religious, so I don't think so. I don't see what that has to do with tech being a double-edged sword, though. I think it's pretty obvious, but if you want to believe otherwise, feel free.
Thank you for this, walked home from work, mind wandering with this
Thank you 🙏 I enjoyed the video immensely.
Two of my favorite thinkers together! I'm showing my age but this for me is like having concert tickets to a Pink Floyd / Jethro Tull double header. :)
Thank you
Fantastic conversation! Thank you!
More would definitely be appreciated. I, for one, would love to see a conversation with Donald Hoffman. His take on reality is fascinating!
A real pleasure listening to this , I am always happy when there is that, which ,I can take from( ,so to speak) . Discovery gives meaning . I have fresh thoughts that I wouldn't have had on my own . Thanks .
I so very much enjoyed your conversation with Michael Levin, i believe he is someone unique his way of seeing the world and a great interlocutor in to you. I'm very much looking forward to your next conversation with him!
Might i suggest also reaching out to John Vervaeke? He is someone that i believe might have something significant to contribute in conversation with you. He has a very great understanding as to the philosophical history of the west (and how it relates to other cultures) that you might be delighted to learn from.
John is a SOPHIST. 😬
He’s chatted with Vervaeke on several occasions.
Holy cow, biologist extraordinaire and Iain.. wow, this is going to be epic.
Great to see a djembe and bongoes behind Michael. Drumming is a great way to let go of left side thinking, potentially opening the mind for creative thoughts/solutions.
Mr. McGilchrist something is up with the microphone input some noise, I suggest you to listen to your output via a headphone first so you can know how you sound.
This is so cool !
Bioelectricity is one component of what I call "The Tetrahedron of Transduction", the others being Biomagnetism, Bioelelectromagnetism & Biophonics, life is a transductive process.
I have mentioned this before, though I certainly don’t mean it to be a refutation of the hemisphere hypothesis in any way, but an origin of asymmetry, in the brain anyway, it would seem to me, to make sense in terms of sleep. I.e dolphins and swifts (who live for long periods on the wing) apparently sleep one hemisphere at a time; that makes a LOT of sense.
I dare say this has been addressed in some depth re the hemisphere hypothesis, but I don’t recall as much
Experience changes you, remember that you lifted weights for 5 years, or lift and don’t remember. I’ll take the process over the product as it’s process that grows and transforms you. We don’t win races at the finish line, we win in practice and DURING the race. I’ll take experience over memory as experience cannot be whittled down to memory
I would love to hear thoughts related to local energy environment, EM, and memory... epigenetics, speciation...related to the energy integration of Earth's atmosphere and energy, information from space.
But what is the rustling?
Maybe this is redundant, but these perspectives resonate well with Gregory Bateson's ecological concept of mind, which is distributed rather than localized in an isolated brain model.
Intrigued by the idea of another mouse's memory being inserted into another mouse that has not had that experience but that it expresses the reaction of that experience. So a question - might there not be an external influence of imagination that can be inserted equally powerfully. For example, might a phobia/fear override a mechanically inserted/injected piece of cellular memory? When there are two (or more, like attention) options of intervention in a biological process, can physical sciences ever claim certainty?
I keep finding little nuggets of wisdom in these discussions. Today, the idea that consciousness has phases that don't look like one another.
Is ambivalence related to the right brain? It seems like it helps us to counteract the left brain's influence. Looking at the big picture, context, and true meaning seem to be the ways we interpret the world from an ambivalent perspective, and temper our actions with wisdom so to speak.
The master is dual to the emissary -- the divided brain.
The master is dual to the apprentice -- the rule of two, Darth Bane, Sith lord.
Teacher (master, lordship, client) is dual to the pupil (slave, bondsman, server) -- the Hegelian dialectic.
Symmetric wave functions (Bosons, waves) are dual to anti-symmetric wave functions (Fermions, particles) -- quantum duality.
Negentropy is syntropy!
"Entropy is a measure of randomness" -- Roger Penrose.
Syntropy is a measure of order.
Making predictions to track targets, goals & objectives is a syntropy process -- teleological.
Syntropy (prediction) is dual to increasing entropy -- the 4th law of thermodynamics!
Teleological physics (syntropy) is dual to non-teleological (entropy).
Entropy is dual to evolution (syntropy) -- Janna Levin, astrophysicist.
"Always two there are" -- Yoda.
22.02 Michel Levins question - when experimenting with DMT as you return to this reality you are at a boarder between knowing everything you want about your eternal existence and this finite one - a very strange place to inhabit
Iain sure does like to hear himself talk. A wonderful conversation in all other respects, but I kept wishing Iain had the capacity to speak with greater clarity and fewer detailed references to his own work, which costs hundreds of dollars, and hundreds of hours, to read. (Michael Levin is infinitely more accessible by contrast.)
Dogen says "blue mountain always walks..."
Does the bioelectric process involve the electric 'left hand rule'? Similar to how plasma 'flows/spirals' within a Birkland current?
10 to the negative 33....times a sec, according to some folks...
I, like the other commenters, saw this as a fruitful discussion. Yet, for me there was quite a lot of sword play going on. Of course that is how it should be. I found McG. was mainly scouting around for the first 30 minutes or so before engaging fully, choosing flow versus discontinuity as the weapon of choice. Very rewarding, yet my insight is one sided. I have been studying McGilchrist for about 3 years, yet I know nothing really about Levin’s research other than the pop headlines.
Yes. I think Levin thinks and speaks very quickly and always goes back to empirical evidence...he's obviously very brilliant. I think McG was perhaps trying to broaden things out into meaning but they seemed to settle into better synchronicity.. probably more to do with McG not being familiar with Levin's field of specialty.
@@untonsured thanks Pat, thoughtful insight.
Structure and function and meaning. The structure reflects the meaning of being. Cosmic meaning reflects a cosmic consciousness an awareness at the being level a trinitarian unity experience , the perennial mystical experience posited as the next stage in our evolution. The question of the human condition can’t be answered by the egoic awareness conscious state from which it evolves.
Dr Iain's bracelet wants attention 😂.
Is he rolling joints? Shame about whatever that sound is, scratching away 😂.
he always says "evolution does this and that". what....evolution is a process how can it do something??? he should use another word not evolution.
Boggling!