A very interesting video. From watching the four locomotives cut in the middle of the train it appears they smoked heavily while in the tunnel. As soon as they got out of the tunnel their exhaust cleared up significantly. I wonder if they end up reburning much of their own exhaust. Each time it passes through the engine it has less oxygen and therefore more smoke is created. It would not surprise me if the power output of the locomotives dropped off as well as the smoke is simply unburned fuel that was not able to release as much heat into the cylinder during the power stroke. Back when I was in school we watched a film about building a new tunnel in the Canadian Rockies (not sure if it was CN or CP). One of main engineering features of the tunnel was the ventilation system installed in it. I can't remember all the details but it used airlock doors that closed after the train passed and large ventilation fans to supply fresh, cool air to where the locomotives would be. I believe the main reason for the system was to keep the locomotives from overheating. Ken
And that is why SP Southern pacific went to the Tunnel Motors the intake for air was down as low as they could get it. Also the 4 boosters or aka manned helpers were two stroke diesel engines. That is why so much more smoke.
I think CN and/or CP used tunnel motors in Canada as well. I have to disagree about more smoke from a 2 stroke. The 2 stroke EMD locomotives almost always have clear (or nearly clear) exhaust while the 4 stroke Alco (later GE) locomotives have heavy black smoke while throttling up. Ken @@Ottos_ScLm_Race_videos_2009_on
@@hmw-ms3txand, some GE locomotives have a *little* smoke when pulling hard, e.g. Amtrak P42s going up through the hills coming out of LA, which is when I saw the *soot!* “That’s a sho’nuff train,” I thought, “as it has soot, and *real* trains have soot.”
@@Ottos_ScLm_Race_videos_2009_onthe lower intake at the back was for better engine cooling, the engine air intake on the old SD40T-2s and 45T-2s is directly behind the cab. CP (iirc) tried adding “ears” to its non tunnel motor SD40s, with limited success. It’s correct that the mid train helpers get starved for fresh air which makes them smoke. They clear up almost as soon as they get out of the tunnel & into fresh air. SP had several tunnels in CA on Donner pass where you’d see this same thing. Don’t see it in the Moffett tunnel since it’s ventilated as is the Cascade tunnel on the BNSF. The tunnel is just short enough that forced air ventilation isn’t required, investment to add it just isn’t worth it.
@@dgrenier4908 I guess I should have wrote radiator inlet is down low helping them stay cooler. As far as the Cascade branch isn't that UP? It was part of the old SP trackage.
Having ridden helpers over Bozeman Pass, this is a part of the fun, as long as you don't stall in the hole! Close up all the windows and hope the A/C unit filter is in good shape.
Not enough O2!!! That tunnel atmosphere makes the stoichiometric ratio a little "Fuel rich" --> incomplete combustion --> *more black smoke!* (combination of deficient oxygen from both altitude and the consumption by the lead units, *_and_* hot temperatures inside the tunnel making the air expand and making the density of oxygen drop even more)
No, the low air intakes on tunnel motors were purely for cooling. The problem here is not overheating but incomplete combustion. Tunnel motors took the engine air intake from exactly the same place as a regular SD40/SD45.
The reason they cleared up after exiting the tunnel is because they’re directly in the center of the train. The end of the tunnel is the summit. Once they’ve reached the summit there’s equal weight on the down slope as in the up slope so they’re no longer struggling to push the cars ahead and drank the cars behind. You can also see them pick up lots of speed quick just after they make it out of the tunnel.
3:30 I think there needs to have some maintenance done on the third unit of the mid-train helper set. There's something amiss...bad seal, loose clamp, very dirty air filter, whatever. The fourth unit was also questionable. The first two units weren't smoky at all. You're right, once the load lessened do to the topography, the fourth unit cleaned up but not completely. The third unit was still dirty. 5:15 The exhaust of the Pusher was as clean as a whistle.
somewhat right, yes they are not pushing/pulling as hard but within the tunnel the engine are taking in the dirty air from the units in front... add the fact the engine are also trying to cool a 200 plus degree engine with warmer air from the exhaust of the other three. EMD has tried to lower the chances of a overheat with their tunnel motors (SD40T-2, SD45T-2) by moving the air intakes to a lower part of the car body.
@carmiethompson2676 it's the same basic principle is what I was trying to make. Sd70s are more advanced then a 45 but work them very hard in a tight Confines of a tunnel like here you'll get the same result.
@@RyanHatterer-Ryanns999I'll disagree but no big. There is always maintenance needed, a loose exhaust clamp to tighten, the filters need cleaning/replacement, a seal replaced...whatever. I'm sure that neither of us would bet that the RR would install a tunnel exhaust fan like the one in Moffat Tunnel for example. On a different subject, you notice that w/ all that black exhaust, there are still green stuff in the area. I think the Trees/ Plants appreciate all the CO2. Photosynthesis isn't the climate peoples friend.
That’s mundane compared to how it was before they shortened the tunnel length. You couldn’t even see the train anymore after the lead engines emerged and went by. And the mid helpers only added to the “fog.”
3:20 All EMD SD70's. The AC designation is a sub-model ranging from a plain-ole SD70 to the SD70ACe/45. The third unit in the mid-train helper group has a bad...something; seal, loose hose clamp, very dirty air filter...whatever. You notice the other units were running clean. That fourth unit was questionable wasn't it? Well, when you run on bunker fuel, things get dirty. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_SD70_series
I didn't count how many cars there were but there is probably 120-130 cars here. There is a Defect Detector at 15.9 and when you hear the axle count you can do some math to determine the number of cars.
Why is it that as soon as those helper units that were smoking harder than steam trains back in the day left the tunnel, they immediately stopped and had a clean burn?
The helpers out of Helena get washed regularly, but after a few runs on a coal train they are covered in crap again. IIRC there is something to do with the air system on them, which requires them to be washed on a frequent basis.
Before they shortened the length of the tunnel, the air filters on the old SD45s, which usually last 5+ years, only lasted 5-6 months due to all the exhaust/soot.
How long does it take for the tunnel to clear before the next train goes through? Probably only safe to be in the lead engine in that tunnel. Neat video
Intestingly it only takes a few minutes for the outside to clear, can’t really tell for the inside but I don’t think there is any ventilation stuff anywhere.
When cprail built mcdonald tunnel they found out fan was not big enough for exhaust.lots train stall so they have redrill yup new exhaust fan miss small details yes.when you drive trans-Canada hwy sometimes you see exhaust top hill come out the train is inside tunnel.i know lots people visist same place so learn build tunnel.thank video.😊
Another reason you got such a nice cloud is that there was no wind/ or a westerly wind. The days I was up there in August, the wind was 20-25mph out of the west, with kept the black cloud down. The tunnel would clear of smoke in 5 minutes after the train left.
Was there back this past July, it was interesting to see, but during the week, they were doing major track work, replacing rail, so train movements were limited. Luckily we did manage to be there during the weekend, and they were moving a good amount of trains, as the track equiptment was parked at the siding at Blossburg
Its challenging but not the hardest thing. It does require just a little bit of hiking through terrain with no path or anything so I recommend some hiking boots and some jeans or something that can hold up against branches.
It’s kind of interesting. EMD engines put out a bunch of extra smoke compared to GE engines. The first 3 BNSF ones are GE. The 4 MRL ones are EMD. The last BNSF is an EMD but by the time it leaves the tunnel it’s not in full throttle anymore.
2 stroke vs 4 stroke engines, and placement of locomotive on the train set, would be my guess. Front of the line more clean air flow. I'd imagine component cooling temperatures might also bump higher for the same reasons.
Because the lead units had used up a bunch of the oxygen in the tunnel, so the mid-train helpers didn't have enough to properly burn their fuel. That's why each successive helper was blowing more smoke than the last -- because it was breathing in more exhaust, and less oxygen.
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Watching those helpers lean out as they exit the tunnel has got to be one of the coolest things I have ever seen.
That tunnel probably thought it was gonna catch a break after steam-power was retired, but nope.
A very interesting video. From watching the four locomotives cut in the middle of the train it appears they smoked heavily while in the tunnel. As soon as they got out of the tunnel their exhaust cleared up significantly. I wonder if they end up reburning much of their own exhaust. Each time it passes through the engine it has less oxygen and therefore more smoke is created. It would not surprise me if the power output of the locomotives dropped off as well as the smoke is simply unburned fuel that was not able to release as much heat into the cylinder during the power stroke. Back when I was in school we watched a film about building a new tunnel in the Canadian Rockies (not sure if it was CN or CP). One of main engineering features of the tunnel was the ventilation system installed in it. I can't remember all the details but it used airlock doors that closed after the train passed and large ventilation fans to supply fresh, cool air to where the locomotives would be. I believe the main reason for the system was to keep the locomotives from overheating. Ken
And that is why SP Southern pacific went to the Tunnel Motors the intake for air was down as low as they could get it.
Also the 4 boosters or aka manned helpers were two stroke diesel engines. That is why so much more smoke.
I think CN and/or CP used tunnel motors in Canada as well. I have to disagree about more smoke from a 2 stroke. The 2 stroke EMD locomotives almost always have clear (or nearly clear) exhaust while the 4 stroke Alco (later GE) locomotives have heavy black smoke while throttling up. Ken @@Ottos_ScLm_Race_videos_2009_on
@@hmw-ms3txand, some GE locomotives have a *little* smoke when pulling hard, e.g. Amtrak P42s going up through the hills coming out of LA, which is when I saw the *soot!*
“That’s a sho’nuff train,” I thought, “as it has soot, and *real* trains have soot.”
@@Ottos_ScLm_Race_videos_2009_onthe lower intake at the back was for better engine cooling, the engine air intake on the old SD40T-2s and 45T-2s is directly behind the cab. CP (iirc) tried adding “ears” to its non tunnel motor SD40s, with limited success.
It’s correct that the mid train helpers get starved for fresh air which makes them smoke. They clear up almost as soon as they get out of the tunnel & into fresh air. SP had several tunnels in CA on Donner pass where you’d see this same thing. Don’t see it in the Moffett tunnel since it’s ventilated as is the Cascade tunnel on the BNSF. The tunnel is just short enough that forced air ventilation isn’t required, investment to add it just isn’t worth it.
@@dgrenier4908 I guess I should have wrote radiator inlet is down low helping them stay cooler. As far as the Cascade branch isn't that UP? It was part of the old SP trackage.
Having ridden helpers over Bozeman Pass, this is a part of the fun, as long as you don't stall in the hole! Close up all the windows and hope the A/C unit filter is in good shape.
Not enough O2!!! That tunnel atmosphere makes the stoichiometric ratio a little "Fuel rich" --> incomplete combustion --> *more black smoke!*
(combination of deficient oxygen from both altitude and the consumption by the lead units, *_and_* hot temperatures inside the tunnel making the air expand and making the density of oxygen drop even more)
Holy cow, that's crazy! I was up there once during my trip and we got a train, but no smoke... The road to get up there is nuts
It depends on the train, if you have a light manifest they usually only have 2 helpers running and they can zip through the tunnel with minimal smoke.
A good example why the Southern Pacific ordered the Tunnel Motor option on its SD45-2's and SD40-2s.
No, the low air intakes on tunnel motors were purely for cooling. The problem here is not overheating but incomplete combustion. Tunnel motors took the engine air intake from exactly the same place as a regular SD40/SD45.
We get it bro, YOU SMOKE!
The reason they cleared up after exiting the tunnel is because they’re directly in the center of the train. The end of the tunnel is the summit. Once they’ve reached the summit there’s equal weight on the down slope as in the up slope so they’re no longer struggling to push the cars ahead and drank the cars behind. You can also see them pick up lots of speed quick just after they make it out of the tunnel.
3:30 I think there needs to have some maintenance done on the third unit of the mid-train helper set. There's something amiss...bad seal, loose clamp, very dirty air filter, whatever. The fourth unit was also questionable. The first two units weren't smoky at all. You're right, once the load lessened do to the topography, the fourth unit cleaned up but not completely. The third unit was still dirty. 5:15 The exhaust of the Pusher was as clean as a whistle.
somewhat right, yes they are not pushing/pulling as hard but within the tunnel the engine are taking in the dirty air from the units in front... add the fact the engine are also trying to cool a 200 plus degree engine with warmer air from the exhaust of the other three. EMD has tried to lower the chances of a overheat with their tunnel motors (SD40T-2, SD45T-2) by moving the air intakes to a lower part of the car body.
@@RyanHatterer-Ryanns999Come on...that was the '60's. An SD70 is many generations from the Grandfather.
@carmiethompson2676 it's the same basic principle is what I was trying to make. Sd70s are more advanced then a 45 but work them very hard in a tight Confines of a tunnel like here you'll get the same result.
@@RyanHatterer-Ryanns999I'll disagree but no big. There is always maintenance needed, a loose exhaust clamp to tighten, the filters need cleaning/replacement, a seal replaced...whatever. I'm sure that neither of us would bet that the RR would install a tunnel exhaust fan like the one in Moffat Tunnel for example. On a different subject, you notice that w/ all that black exhaust, there are still green stuff in the area. I think the Trees/ Plants appreciate all the CO2. Photosynthesis isn't the climate peoples friend.
That’s mundane compared to how it was before they shortened the tunnel length. You couldn’t even see the train anymore after the lead engines emerged and went by. And the mid helpers only added to the “fog.”
Those mid-train ACes! So much smoke when they emerged from the tunnel… Another good one, Eli. Thanks.
3:20 All EMD SD70's. The AC designation is a sub-model ranging from a plain-ole SD70 to the SD70ACe/45. The third unit in the mid-train helper group has a bad...something; seal, loose hose clamp, very dirty air filter...whatever. You notice the other units were running clean. That fourth unit was questionable wasn't it? Well, when you run on bunker fuel, things get dirty. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_SD70_series
What an awesome video! Modern trains with that many DPUs is crazy! Did anyone get a count of how many cars this was?
I didn't count how many cars there were but there is probably 120-130 cars here. There is a Defect Detector at 15.9 and when you hear the axle count you can do some math to determine the number of cars.
Somebody really needs to take a brush and a squeegee to that tunnel entrance.
It looks like a smoky mountain
There used to be tunnel fans on the east portal, but they were removed.
3:20 that is insane when these locomotives came out that tunnel and rolls coal
It's a very interesting video to watch 😮😮
I wouldn't want to be a train hopper on one of the cars behind the helpers probably wouldn't make it
Can't hop a coal train anyway -- there's nowhere to sit. Manifests are generally lighter, so less power needed, so less smoke.
Eli this is great!
Why is it that as soon as those helper units that were smoking harder than steam trains back in the day left the tunnel, they immediately stopped and had a clean burn?
There was a lack of oxygen in the tunnel, so they were able to cleanly burn the moment they got oxygen.
I see that MRL is doing its SP imitation in not washing their locomotives
Why bother? The railroad won't exist anymore in a few months.
We were there in July, and at the yard in Helena, they were washing a helper set of MRL Aces.@@princessofthecape2078
The helpers out of Helena get washed regularly, but after a few runs on a coal train they are covered in crap again. IIRC there is something to do with the air system on them, which requires them to be washed on a frequent basis.
I would imagine any of the helpers if manned would require gas masks
The helpers are manned. They are equipped with cabin filters thru the HVAC system
Before they shortened the length of the tunnel, the air filters on the old SD45s, which usually last 5+ years, only lasted 5-6 months due to all the exhaust/soot.
How long does it take for the tunnel to clear before the next train goes through? Probably only safe to be in the lead engine in that tunnel. Neat video
Intestingly it only takes a few minutes for the outside to clear, can’t really tell for the inside but I don’t think there is any ventilation stuff anywhere.
When cprail built mcdonald tunnel they found out fan was not big enough for exhaust.lots train stall so they have redrill yup new exhaust fan miss small details yes.when you drive trans-Canada hwy sometimes you see exhaust top hill come out the train is inside tunnel.i know lots people visist same place so learn build tunnel.thank video.😊
Another reason you got such a nice cloud is that there was no wind/ or a westerly wind. The days I was up there in August, the wind was 20-25mph out of the west, with kept the black cloud down. The tunnel would clear of smoke in 5 minutes after the train left.
That could cause a fire
Was there back this past July, it was interesting to see, but during the week, they were doing major track work, replacing rail, so train movements were limited. Luckily we did manage to be there during the weekend, and they were moving a good amount of trains, as the track equiptment was parked at the siding at Blossburg
Merak ettiğim konu arkadan gelen makinist tünelde dumandan etkilenmiyormu
How easy is it to get to the Blossburg tunnel?
Its challenging but not the hardest thing. It does require just a little bit of hiking through terrain with no path or anything so I recommend some hiking boots and some jeans or something that can hold up against branches.
Not too hard, there is a dirt road off of the main road and the railroad has a small MOW building right at the end of the tunnel.
Ton krytyki I dobry pomysł.
anti-train hoper device ??
Genius move
The Emd's smoked a lot.
Use electric train instead of polluting this beautifull nature
How do you think most electricity is produced? It just doesn't happen by magic.
Euforia i młodość.
Bic.
Ich bin_
So BNSF locos cone out and they are fine, but Montana rail link comes out and it's thick black exhaust.
Why?
It’s kind of interesting. EMD engines put out a bunch of extra smoke compared to GE engines. The first 3 BNSF ones are GE. The 4 MRL ones are EMD. The last BNSF is an EMD but by the time it leaves the tunnel it’s not in full throttle anymore.
2 stroke vs 4 stroke engines, and placement of locomotive on the train set, would be my guess. Front of the line more clean air flow.
I'd imagine component cooling temperatures might also bump higher for the same reasons.
Because the lead units had used up a bunch of the oxygen in the tunnel, so the mid-train helpers didn't have enough to properly burn their fuel. That's why each successive helper was blowing more smoke than the last -- because it was breathing in more exhaust, and less oxygen.