I recall as a kid seeing Penn Central locos going through my town of Laporte, IN . Suddenly I started seeing blue Conrail locos. My Dad said the government had to step in because the country can't just have this line shut down. (The double-track mainline to Chicago goes through Laporte.)
Same can be applied to the Erie-Lackawanna merger. Because the Erie was the "bigger railroad" they arrogantly shuffled themselves in to position of powers screwing over the Lackawanna leadership, which unlike the Erie, was always profitable and knew how to run a railroad. The Erie was a joke and a lolcow. How it managed to stay afloat for as long as it did with all of its issues is astonishing!
ICC just gave trucking a free run of everything while holding the railroads back. My dad worked for Pennsy back then and they knew the merger would be a mess, there was so much different, changes made after the merger talks began didn't help either, between the two companies. It was a shame things the went the way they did but a lesson there, but not neccessarily learned now.
The PRR hauled SOME anthracite but it mainly hauled bituminous. It was never considered an anthracite road as were the Reading, Jersey Central, Lackawanna, Lehigh Valley, Delaware and Hudson, New York Ontario and Western, Erie, Lehigh and Hudson and Lehigh and New England.
One other critical thing to understand is that the PRR owned substantial stock in many other railroads, some to the point that the PRR all but controlled them. A significant amount of their corporate income came from dividend payments from railroads like the Norfolk & Western, Wabash, etc. Stuart Saunders, PRR and eventually PC Chairman, was the former president of the N&W. The ICC demanded the PRR divest itself from these other corporations in order to merge with the NYC. That deprived the PRR of necessary income. The merger was hoped to save enough money through rationalization and reduction in staff and tracks to offset that loss of income.
The Eastern Railroads, or any railroads really depended on freight traffic for their bottom line, much less so for passenger revenue. The Southern, N&W and C&O are examples of very profitable coal haulers. I recall riding on a single car RDC on the Reading with an engineer, 'fireman', conductor and trainman. I believe 'featherbedding' was the term. Between the overregulation by the ICC, the intransigent unions and trucking companies subsidized by highway construction, the railroads were operating from a disadvantaged position.
I remember reading about two engineer crews when the change to diesel started. One in each locomotive running back to back with the guys in the rear doing nothing.
I have a book that talks about the Penn Central merger and according to what it says, the reason why the NYC went along with it is because it wanted to tap into new freight markets, specifically, the anthracite mines in Pennsylvania. But I believe if it hadn't agreed to the merger and maintained the status quo for a few more years, it stood a good chance of getting those anyway. The PRR was a ticking time bomb and would have never survived the energy crunch of the early 70s. Once it declared bankruptcy, the NYC would have been able to take over the PRR under much more agreeable terms and managed things its way. The NYC was actually showing a profit at the time of the merger, albeit a marginal one. Still, for any railroad in that part of the country at that time in history to show a profit of any kind was a miracle unto itself.
I disagree somewhat The Central was making a small profit, but both had trackage in many towns and cities that if consolidated, would reduce crew costs and track repairs.
If only the Management wasn’t so divided. If only the best of both Management teams came together to form a New management team for Penn Central and they decided to solve all the issues, then Penn Central may have survived. Also, the Broad Way 4 Track Main Line. I have an idea for that. Two of the Tracks would be used for Freight service, and Two for Passenger, however passenger & freight trains can switch onto the other set of tracks when absolutely necessary.
It was my understanding that the reason that Robert Young killed himself was because he lost control of the NYC, NOT because the job was too big for him
I think McGinnes made it to Conrail in some capacity, but I don't remember exactly what. Somewhere I have a Conrail poster with his picture on it looking very much like an old railroad man that doesn't like change. Several other men are featured, but I can't recall who they were. I never cared much for Conrail.
Good-ish but no longer a case study ... very archaic 20th C. Business is no longer conducted this way. (But living in NYC territory, I do recall the merger mess as a teen.)
I watched our double track mainline through our west central ohio city get completely rebuilt and a huge traffic increase, 40+ trains per day under the Conrail guise, to being abandoned and pulled up a little over a year later. Mind blowing.😟
I believe what you say about Pennsy's slowness to convert to diesel power was inaccurate. They were too slow but by 1950 diesel power was a major part of the routine and I believe that a majority of freight and passenger trains were powered by diesel or electric. I don't have specific statistics at hand but I think you might re-check your sources on that. On my birthday in 1957, the Pennsy operated its last diesel powered train on regular schedule --- a commuter train from the old Exchange Place terminal in Jersey City to Point Pleasant/ Bay Head. You said they had their first diesel power in 1937 and did not really put emphasis on conversion to diesel power for 22 years. In fact they were 100% converted to diesel + electric in 20 years. I also doubt what you say about anthracite steam engines on the Pennsy. In my study of rail road history it as appeared to me that the Lackawanna (DL&W) was the only US railroad to make extensive use of anthracite power. Their anthracite burners were of an entirely different design from bituminous locos. Burning anthricite in the typical steam engines of the day was never successful.
There were many railroads (including PRR -albeit rare) who used anthracite and the 'Wooten' fireboxes, though most switched to bituminous in the later years of steam. The "anthracite roads" used it almost exclusively.
The Lackawanna as I udnerstand it was the leader in extensive use of anthracite coal. I believe in the first paragraph of this comment the author meant steam power, not diesel? I think Erie was all diesel by 1953.
Great video, almost makes me want to be a libertarian. Similar stories happened in other countries where government control by unelected officials ruined industries like rail, then blamed it on 'fat cat' rail management. It's sad to think what could have been.
actually you should read "the wreck of the penn central" and "no way to run a railroad" both of them tell a lot of truth about the behind the scenes at the penn central
as ususal a great video sir, butt like i alawys say when they became conrail it was like when the us government bailed out the car makers, a waste of taxpayer s cash.if your that big thats your problem not ours,
UNIONS DESTROYING AN INDUSTRY!?!? Say it ain't so!! Yes i know the ICC started the downfall and pennsys mgmnt fucking sucked- but you'd think the employees would at least try to do their part to save the company instead of just not giving a shit.... but i would've loved to see how NYC could've done if deregulation was done in 1960 instead of after Conrail showed profitability
I've never understood why unions make demands to the point of destroying the company. Then no one has a job. Isn't it better to take less and keep the business going?
![ร้อยพ่อพันแม่ - WanMai [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/XY2pNYASEbg/mqdefault.jpg)
I recall as a kid seeing Penn Central locos going through my town of Laporte, IN . Suddenly I started seeing blue Conrail locos. My Dad said the government had to step in because the country can't just have this line shut down. (The double-track mainline to Chicago goes through Laporte.)
Interesting how government steps in to solve problems they created in the first place or at lest had a big hand in doing so.
Strike one: Inflexible ICC
Strike two: Being forced to bring in the NH Railroad
Strike three: Arrogant Pennsy management living in the past
And the red team (PRR) vs. green team (NYC) didn't help.
Not enough freight and too many parallel lines also dude.
Yes the NH caviot was a terrible blow right from the start.
Same can be applied to the Erie-Lackawanna merger. Because the Erie was the "bigger railroad" they arrogantly shuffled themselves in to position of powers screwing over the Lackawanna leadership, which unlike the Erie, was always profitable and knew how to run a railroad. The Erie was a joke and a lolcow. How it managed to stay afloat for as long as it did with all of its issues is astonishing!
@OriginalBongoliath William White managed to reverse EL's fortunes for a time. It's a shame the railroad didn't have better leadership from the start.
ICC just gave trucking a free run of everything while holding the railroads back.
My dad worked for Pennsy back then and they knew the merger would be a mess, there was so much different, changes made after the merger talks began didn't help either, between the two companies. It was a shame things the went the way they did but a lesson there, but not neccessarily learned now.
The PRR hauled SOME anthracite but it mainly hauled bituminous. It was never considered an anthracite road as were the Reading, Jersey Central, Lackawanna, Lehigh Valley, Delaware and Hudson, New York Ontario and Western, Erie, Lehigh and Hudson and Lehigh and New England.
Great book on this ill failed merger: The Wreck of the Penn Central
Excellent work. Another well-done historical piece.
One other critical thing to understand is that the PRR owned substantial stock in many other railroads, some to the point that the PRR all but controlled them. A significant amount of their corporate income came from dividend payments from railroads like the Norfolk & Western, Wabash, etc. Stuart Saunders, PRR and eventually PC Chairman, was the former president of the N&W.
The ICC demanded the PRR divest itself from these other corporations in order to merge with the NYC. That deprived the PRR of necessary income. The merger was hoped to save enough money through rationalization and reduction in staff and tracks to offset that loss of income.
that income was never would have save the Prr
Once again, government is a fly in the ointment.
The Eastern Railroads, or any railroads really depended on freight traffic for their bottom line, much less so for passenger revenue. The Southern, N&W and C&O are examples of very profitable coal haulers. I recall riding on a single car RDC on the Reading with an engineer, 'fireman', conductor and trainman. I believe 'featherbedding' was the term. Between the overregulation by the ICC, the intransigent unions and trucking companies subsidized by highway construction, the railroads were operating from a disadvantaged position.
I remember reading about two engineer crews when the change to diesel started. One in each locomotive running back to back with the guys in the rear doing nothing.
I also want the story of Penn Csntral to be taught, not just in colleges but, in all American schools.
The advent of Amtrak saw in immediate downgrade int he level of passenger service previously offered by the railroads.
A great informative video. I always learn a lot from your work. Thanks for posting.
Thanks!
Jesus! Your microphone pop at only 3 seconds just about blew my subwoofer out. Dude?!
I have a book that talks about the Penn Central merger and according to what it says, the reason why the NYC went along with it is because it wanted to tap into new freight markets, specifically, the anthracite mines in Pennsylvania. But I believe if it hadn't agreed to the merger and maintained the status quo for a few more years, it stood a good chance of getting those anyway. The PRR was a ticking time bomb and would have never survived the energy crunch of the early 70s. Once it declared bankruptcy, the NYC would have been able to take over the PRR under much more agreeable terms and managed things its way. The NYC was actually showing a profit at the time of the merger, albeit a marginal one. Still, for any railroad in that part of the country at that time in history to show a profit of any kind was a miracle unto itself.
I disagree somewhat The Central was making a small profit, but both had trackage in many towns and cities that if consolidated, would reduce crew costs and track repairs.
I enjoy all of your video's, thank you!
It seems that, as usual, once government gets involved everything goes to smash.
If only the Management wasn’t so divided. If only the best of both Management teams came together to form a New management team for Penn Central and they decided to solve all the issues, then Penn Central may have survived.
Also, the Broad Way 4 Track Main Line. I have an idea for that. Two of the Tracks would be used for Freight service, and Two for Passenger, however passenger & freight trains can switch onto the other set of tracks when absolutely necessary.
Drinking game: do a shot at every mention of the word "massive".
It was my understanding that the reason that Robert Young killed himself was because he lost control of the NYC, NOT because the job was too big for him
Next locomotive documentary when?
I think McGinnes made it to Conrail in some capacity, but I don't remember exactly what. Somewhere I have a Conrail poster with his picture on it looking very much like an old railroad man that doesn't like change. Several other men are featured, but I can't recall who they were. I never cared much for Conrail.
Good-ish but no longer a case study ... very archaic 20th C. Business is no longer conducted this way.
(But living in NYC territory, I do recall the merger mess as a teen.)
I watched our double track mainline through our west central ohio city get completely rebuilt and a huge traffic increase, 40+ trains per day under the Conrail guise, to being abandoned and pulled up a little over a year later. Mind blowing.😟
Peen central?
Bad puns are how eye roll
🤣
I believe what you say about Pennsy's slowness to convert to diesel power was inaccurate. They were too slow but by 1950 diesel power was a major part of the routine and I believe that a majority of freight and passenger trains were powered by diesel or electric. I don't have specific statistics at hand but I think you might re-check your sources on that. On my birthday in 1957, the Pennsy operated its last diesel powered train on regular schedule --- a commuter train from the old Exchange Place terminal in Jersey City to Point Pleasant/ Bay Head. You said they had their first diesel power in 1937 and did not really put emphasis on conversion to diesel power for 22 years. In fact they were 100% converted to diesel + electric in 20 years.
I also doubt what you say about anthracite steam engines on the Pennsy. In my study of rail road history it as appeared to me that the Lackawanna (DL&W) was the only US railroad to make extensive use of anthracite power. Their anthracite burners were of an entirely different design from bituminous locos. Burning anthricite in the typical steam engines of the day was never successful.
There were many railroads (including PRR -albeit rare) who used anthracite and the 'Wooten' fireboxes, though most switched to bituminous in the later years of steam. The "anthracite roads" used it almost exclusively.
The Lackawanna as I udnerstand it was the leader in extensive use of anthracite coal. I believe in the first paragraph of this comment the author meant steam power, not diesel? I think Erie was all diesel by 1953.
@@wjsj69 Didn't Reading T1s use anthracite?
@@1940limited Last mention of diesel was a mistake. Last steam in regular service was November 30, 1943.
I did it again. Nov 30 1957
Too bad the Central didn't merge with The B&O and not go anywhere The Pensy!!
All my homies HATE Penn Central
Me like PC.
@@UPLINKUSA BOO THIS MAN
@@DeseretFoamerOOOORAAAAAHHHH 👾👾👾👾👾
Great video, almost makes me want to be a libertarian. Similar stories happened in other countries where government control by unelected officials ruined industries like rail, then blamed it on 'fat cat' rail management. It's sad to think what could have been.
actually you should read "the wreck of the penn central" and "no way to run a railroad" both of them tell a lot of truth about the behind the scenes at the penn central
I pretend that the Penn Central days never happened. 😂
I pretend Conrail never happened.
as ususal a great video sir, butt like i alawys say when they became conrail it was like when the us government bailed out the car makers, a waste of taxpayer s cash.if your that big thats your problem not ours,
EL tried to stay out of Conrail but joined at the last second perforce. Too bad they couldn't survive.
@@1940limited amen to that I loved the big e .l.
There are a lot of bad takes in this piece.
UNIONS DESTROYING AN INDUSTRY!?!? Say it ain't so!! Yes i know the ICC started the downfall and pennsys mgmnt fucking sucked- but you'd think the employees would at least try to do their part to save the company instead of just not giving a shit.... but i would've loved to see how NYC could've done if deregulation was done in 1960 instead of after Conrail showed profitability
I've never understood why unions make demands to the point of destroying the company. Then no one has a job. Isn't it better to take less and keep the business going?