Why Snake is Good in Brawl, and how he changed Completely in Project M
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ธ.ค. 2022
- Here is how Snake went from a high tier in Brawl to where he is now in Project Plus.
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I forgot how good Snake really was in Brawl and I didn't know you could fake a C4 and move during a grab. Project M really did a great job with Snake!
I knew that lmao.
That's one of the reasons why he was so broken the down smash combined with grab release and moving with his grab made him OP
I'm probably in the minority but I think Snake is an incredibly honest character once you understand how to deal with his tools
Yeah but, it's hard to learn the Matchup... specially as some other characters...
I like to shield and wavedash in or cape as mario to get in range
This
Cool video but as a MGS fan I actually think Snake in Brawl is a amazing representation of himself and the Metal Gear Gameplay.
Like, he have Jank? yeah, to a extend, but the core of a trapper is there, I dont know what you mean he was the "heavy-Weapon" archetype, when his playstyle is about fooling your enemy with yours trap, the landmine was already in brawl. The M9, the tranq gun, is really fun and is really good to make that feeling of the corridors of MGS2 and how overpower is, but also I think that even if in PM Snake still feel like MGS, I actually think he depends a bit much on the M9, and important part of MGS gameplay is how good you are in improvisation, and I will argue that Ultimate Snake pulish the brawl moveset and make you feel that even better.
And Also, the knife comes from MGS3 Big Boss ( His father and main character in the prequel games), and I think thats is important to notice because I think the PM moveset was made to fit also his Big Boss skin (the one with the eyepatch), like, this more flexible moveset (Knife, M9) fits Snake Eater more.
I think PM Snake is really cool but official Smash Snake I think is one of the weird moments when Smash really understood really well a complex character.
Snake will ALWAYS remain as one of the coolest smash characters ever put in. Great video man!
Snake was originally gonna be bigger hence his heaviness and his ridiculous uptilt hitbox
Yes I heard his character model was larger in earlier builds of brawl. crazy
That would look really cursed
As someone who played Snake for years in PM, I think this was a good video but a few things stood out to me. Down Smash isn't a new move in PM; you could definitely place mines on platforms in Brawl. The only difference is that the PM version (as of 3.6) activates sooner and has a larger hitbox. Snake's forward air also isn't different, the tip spiked (or meteor smashed) in Brawl as well. In PM/P+ (at least 3.6), the whole thing meteors and the tip spikes.
Snake has some really amazing and clever stuff in PM, such as the crawl attack, the moving box taunt, and the ability to move during a grab. However, to say that his Brawl version doesn't accurately represent him is in my opinion a huge mischaracterization. The ability to stick C4 onto someone came directly from MGS. The grenades' throwing distances are based on the original series, where you could hold the button down harder to throw farther. The Nikita Missile slows down for a quick moment when changing direction before returning to normal speed, just like in the original MGS1. There's even a 1 in 6 chance that the C4 is a Butterfly-shaped C3 based on MGS3. To be honest, I don't know where you're getting the idea that Snake wasn't a sneaky trap-based character in Brawl. If you look at videos like EvenMatchupGaming's Brawl Snake highlight reel, he is absolutely as much of a trap character there as he is here. Yes, he had janky stuff like up tilt and side tilt, but PM has lots of jank as well. Cypher into down air into cypher into down air into cypher into sticky was just ridiculous in 3.6.
Personally, in some ways, I think Brawl does a better job of conveying this personality than PM. They both do a phenomenal job, but things like the grenades having a MUCH shorter fuse in PM essentially make them a regular projectile. Additionally, sticking C4 to opponents is so great in PM that it invalidates the strategy of placing it on parts of the stage, removing a bit of depth from the move in play.
As a huge MGS fan I was about to comment, but then I read this and yeah, thank you, I totally agree with you.
Snake have jank in Brawl? Yeah, but the core is totally tactical and feels like SOLID Snake, I still like PM Snake but Brawl did great for Snake.
@@TrainerZN Which is why Snake is so popular. He is unique, he's loyal enough to the games he comes from and he's effective due to being hard to deal with how distracting his traps are. I'm sure people would prefer something like Snake over a Kazuya, who goes way too far in trying to emulate Tekken.
14:10
i disagree. c4 is the only "stealth" move snake even has. the fact you might miss it is sick, and evokes metal gear for the snake player more effectively, even without the cool reference. it could always be crammed in as a thing that happens if you take his box off lol
besides, the person getting stuck is supposed to have the ! not snake himself in that scenario
“Snake is as heavy as say Bowser and DK”
Because he’s dummy thicc, so the clap of his ass cheeks will not only alert his opponents, but also make him heavier
Brawl snake was one of the high tiers that saw so much development. From being the absolute noob killer after the first year, to one of the most demanding turtle characters... super cool.
I don’t mean to be that guy, but a decent bit of the Brawl portion is pretty poorly researched. I’ll talk about misunderstood things in the order they appear in the video.
Snake’s bair cannot wall of pain because it has way too much end lag and his double jump is way too low. It just has a lingering hitbox that makes it decent for edgeguarding, but it’s risky because Snake is very susceptible to being dunked because he’s forced to recover low.
The editor makes it seem like Snake is stuck in Nikita (side B) for the entire duration of the move until it either deactivates or blows up. This is false and you can cancel the move by pressing shield (same as in Ultimate).
Snake’s recovery is a pretty big double edged sword. It goes very high which is great for being able to live from almost anywhere, but Snake falls like a rock the instant he acts out of it. This means Snake pretty much always has to recover high or else he’s a sitting duck just asking to get hit if he recovers low. If he’s forced to recover low, you’ll typically see Snake players C4 themselves to get much higher and avoid being meteored (you can still kill Snake if you read his DI) While recovering high, his aerials are pretty lackluster for landing with the exception of bair which has good hurtbox shifting, but dropping Nikita, C4, and B-reversed grenades from way high up are how he’s able to get away from freely being juggled. You did mention some of this a bit later in the video, but the whole idea of Snake landing is absent.
Snake is also not a character who is typically grab released by anyone. On ground release, Snake can pull out a grenade (spawns on frame 1) and escape these situations. Snake is also very tall, so most (if not all) characters cannot force an air release against him except at ledge. Snake on the other hand can force air release quite a lot of the cast because of his tall stature with the most common setups being grab release into claymore on a platform (depending on the grab release trajectory of the opponent because it varies from character to character).
The idea that Snake was considered mid is blatantly false. In the very first official Brawl tier list (from the Smash Back Rooms), Snake was ranked #2 and remained there for 3 years. He only started to decline as other character’s metas like Diddy, Olimar, and ICs got pushed further.
Snake always had the ability to throw grenades at different angles. PM just added a new low angle he can throw grenades at.
Snake’s down smash was barely changed from Brawl to PM. In Brawl, you can still plant the claymore on platforms and hit, throw, or grab release characters into it for combos and kills.
Brawl Snake is still a trap character in Brawl and not really a “heavy weapon expert” in practice. Nikita and f smash are barely used in competitive whereas C4, grenades, and d smash are frequently used to set traps and zone out the opponent with projectiles. PM snake essentially just gave him a viable side B and improved his aerials so they can actually be used in neutral because they were way too slow and had way too much landing lag in Brawl (which is why Snake plays very grounded).
Please try to do a bit more research on Brawl characters when discussing them as to not spread misinformation.
I've been a main Snake since Brawl. He was my favorite all the time. Now in P+ is even more awesome with all the hardware he got
Too bad he is not top tier :(
every mgs fan died inside at 7:57
great video nonetheless, very informative
Imagine Nintendo adding a character that smokes cigarettes. Lol. Love the vid keep up the work honest.
One extra change worth noting about Project M/+ Up-Smash is that you can adjust the direction of the mortar for insane coverage
What about DK with his cargo grab??
Ngl, because of Konami's dumb actions, i forgot Snake was in Smash.
I haven't played since the halloween build leaked, but I was a snake main and I'm 99% sure that forward and back throw have set knockback too which was really funny for setting up claymore shenanigans. Also you can stick c4 to walls, which is really funny in Warioware because the camera can't pan far enough to show the wall you stuck it to. Also the cigarette butt taunt is a weak spike and you can save the cig by shielding during the taunt.
Very neatly edited and put together video with pleasant visuals, it works well as a quick summary of the character. However I really need to point out some details that stuck out to me
No mention of chaingrabs or really any mention of how far snake can extend his advantage with up-throw, while you don't need to go super in-depth here (because there's quite a lot) you could at least show a clip of an actual true combo, maybe chaingrabs into aerials, say landing nair into normals. Additionally in most cases it is easier to techchase with up-throw than down-throw
For any newer players wanting to learn this character: do NOT spam down air, it doesn't just combo into itself onstage (unless your opponent drops their controller), it's very SDIable, there are tech opportunities, and specifically in P+ has reduced hitstun on grounded opponents which means in certain cases you can get hit out of it even between hits. For this reason it's better to either land with the first hit or last hit and get followups out of that, if you must use all hits, try to follow their SDI (also all hits are meteors, except for the first three on grounded opponents which are sakurai angle so they get CC'd)
Tranquilizer is reloaded manually with Shield > Side-B, and snakes don't choose to reload after stocks because "they want to", it's to get back to a max of three rounds, just like how Samus and DK charge their neutral-b. Darts lose to shield yes but they also don't put aerial opponents to sleep, only grounded
Hit 1 of neutral air has set knockback so it links into grab or normals very well, or buffered nair out of a shorthop and fastfall to get hit 2 and land with it which leads to similar followups. Last hit has a fairly low angle which is good for edgeguards. Didn't see any of this mentioned
Bair is mentioned as a strong spacing tool but not even once as how it's his best edgeguard aerial, almost on par with Sheik bair, I definitely don't see enough snakes going far out there with back airs, and too many using forward air like it's Mario forward air (it isn't, it's higher risk, you have to be certain it's going to hit and that comes with experience) or down air which gets meteor cancelled, so it's generally not as good as back air offstage (outside of very deep downairs or against characters like bowser or dk that can be gimped if they don't cancel in time)
You can also do all other special moves out of cypher, but it can't be jumped or airdodged out of (it also consumes your DJ). More importantly it's cancelled by pressing down which is how he sweetspots the ledge from below (snakes don't do this enough either).
Snake is combo food, struggles to approach well in neutral and gets rushed down, but also has difficulties getting off ledge and out of the corner. In exchange he has an excellent grounded game, punish game, edgeguard and recovery (which was said to be nerfed from brawl but really it's still just as strong) and can't be easily gimped as long as he has C4. This means you live longer which means you typically are given more opportunities to make comebacks and adapt than your opponent, which means you have an edge in the game of attrition which is good for tilting opponents.
And lastly this video doesn't help with the stigma that all snake ever wants and ever thinks about is getting C4 sticky on opponents and going for vertical launchers, of which I can spot 4 or 5 clips in the video. While you don't state this style of play outright it's pretty insinuated. It's not a bad gameplan, yes, but only playing this character through that lens is extremely narrowminded and neglects Snake's other previously mentioned strengths, especially his very strong edgeguard, gimp and offstage game where having the opponent stuck is not a requirement, which is something that comes up often in the spacie matchups or against Falcon for example
P.S
Tilt stick is amazing on Snake
Up-tilt is good for kills as well
If you are starting out I reccomend getting used to grounded snake first, so jab, grab, normals and movement, avoid his smash attacks, especially downsmash. For now do basic 1-2 hits out of up-throw, up-tilt, up air etc
Learning when and how to trap with landmine, chaingrabs and optimal uthrow trees, dacus, c4 recovery etc all these things take time and practice, and more importantly they come after you learn basic grounded snake
8:16 Is that a change? I'm pretty sure it's also a mine in brawl.
He did have that landmine in Brawl. That part in of the video confused me too.
Isnt snake also a trap character in brawl?
Would love to see you compare the 2 versions of snake in pm remix
Mained Snake in PM. Ngl he felt borderline broken with the tranquilizer then sticky lol
10:20
DK: am I a joke to you??
I meant with the D-Pad lol. You could also argue Cargo is a throw input. While Snake can just move while in grab, with no throw input.
I was about to say
DK:.....I'll just go home then 🚶🏿♂️
I love these series
Big Boss as an alt was a bad decision, should've gave Snake his MGS4 model.
When I saw he could move with his down throw I could only think about him doing the ding dong combo lmao
I'm pretty sure snake's forward could already spike in brawl. Great video btw
Kazuya has crouch moves, which are kinda similar to crouch attacks.
He has his little crouch jab, and he has his crouch, rise A move which stuns you.
Kazuya got moves on top of more moves.
10:18 dont forget about DK Cargo throw but I guess you meant moving with d-pad in grab.
wake up babe honest content just dropped
Forward air is a meteor in Brawl also
"All recoveries in brawl are great unless you are a low tier"
**Jigglypuff has entered the chat**
I remember that first year after Brawl came out. For a few months, people thought Snake was better than Meta Knight. After that changed, he was considered #2 for a while. Idk where this "mid-tier" stuff came from. First couple years, that was not the consensus.
Different communities?
Exactly, snake was always seen as a strong character. Love this dude but hes wrong here. Snake was #2 for a very long time. I was surprised when I checked back years later to see him drop to 6th.
Love PM, love MGS, hate Snake in PM. devs completely missed what he was going for. Designing For made a great video on this, but the tl;dr is that MGS, and Snake are FAR more than "sneaky man go sneak"
Havent properly got into MGS but I think the Project M Side B, as well as Grenade being able to be angled now are great changes. Otherwise, the changes towards Snake in PM are kinda eh like Up Tilt is now lame and the knife move is stupid as hell
Project M Snake actually represents the character and series!
Cool
Snake is good in Brawl because the mechanics don't hurt his play style
do diddy kong next please
10:17 DK?
@ 10:20 uuuuhmmm.... DK Cargo Throw?
Cargo is not a D-Pad Grab, its an actual grab input.
Crazy how in ultimate he lighter than Piranha plant
Funnily, Snake is heavier than King Dedede in Brawl!
NGL, Snake's Forward Smash was always one of my favorite moves to KO with in Brawl. It just sends opponents flying offstage!
If Meta Knight and Icies were banned then I would say Snake would have been the best character in Brawl. I personally do put him above Olimar, Diddy, Falco, and Marth.
10:22 dk can also move while holding someone in a grab
Wait, how was Snake the first third party character, when Sonic was also a third party character in Brawl?
I'm pretty sure Snake was in one of the first brawl trailers while Sonic was one of the last to be shown to be in the game (At least I think so)
@@SirIsaacFortesque Yeah I thought maybe that's what he meant, but idk if I'd count them as first or second, more like the first two third party characters.
Sonic was famously added later into Brawls development
I don’t think Up Tilt references anything
honest content with another banger lets fukin go!!!! Also, have you heard of this new fighting game Yomi Hustle? Most fun i've had in forever, pls check it out!
Yo as an fyi when talking about characters weight and how it helps them survive, you shouldn’t show off the being thrown. Throws don’t actually use about weight in their knockback calculations, so whether or not you are good at surviving a kill throw depends solely on fall speed and di.
Snake is really good is Brawl, and he’s really good in in Ultimate
Snake in pm reminds me of Simon and richter in ultimate
@@BigMamaSSB Decent attacks but has quite the move lag?
@@stuffenjoyer6677 nah snake in pm feels like ultimate Belmonts
@@BigMamaSSB I was describing the Ultimate Belmonts
@@stuffenjoyer6677 oh ok
They have to make another tierlist and put him in upper b tier at worst
Fun fact: In the Metal Gear games snakes side special is actually called the Nikita Missile.
This keyframing is so down bad lol
Snake being a low tier in my opinion finishes the fantasy of playing the man that does the impossible mission
0:37 OBJECTION! People used to debate if Snake or Meta Knight were *the best character* in Brawl in the early days, with DDD being a top 3 btw. Then people realized Meta Knight was a broken abomination so DDD was forced into midtier. Yeah, he's slow, but it's Brawl, everything but Meta Knight is slow in that game.
8:15 Do you SERIOUSLY do your researches? HE HAD THAT IN BRAWL. And btw, he is a trap character both in Brawl and Project. It got removed in ultimate because it was considered toxic to deal with, and considering he's a top tier I don't think he needs another mine move.
11:50 He also has that in Brawl and was barely changed into Ultimate. Seriously, you sometimes give too much credit to Project M... oh wait, you're talking about not being able to be Meteor Cancelled. Can you remind me why does that technique exist? Because I feel is mostly there to make mid and Low tiers like Ganondorf, Luigi, Donkey Kong, Mewtwo or Mario worse, instead of adding something to the game.
Overall, Snake has to be one of the most cleverly designed characters in Smash, taking existing elements and mixing them to make someone who relies mostly on setups where the opponent is dahmed unless choose the right option, with the sause of lots of damage. Does it look Janky? Yes, but 1°: Almost everything looks Janky when slowed down, specially a game like smash where animation follows a philosophy of "Too much is just right". 2°: Its effectiveness cannot be denied and is definitely still a trapper. 3°: In some ways M denies some of that, like those grenades imploding sooner or overfocusing on sticking C4 on the enemy instead of using it mostly as area denial.
PS: Snake still has that Up-Tilt because their players LOVE to have a smash attack as a tilt, while dedicating his up smash to trapping. You don't fix what it's not broken, and if you don't believe me just look at New Coke.
1 bad move? Nikita is his best antiair AND is remote! It's better than his wall of pain when spammed!
and can be cancelled too and the missile does a free fall that does half the damage but is excellent for mind game
Maybe in ultimate, but in Brawl is just way too easy to punish a nikita.
First 😎
FIRST
This is what Snake was doing in between Sons of Liberty and Guns of The Patriots