It's nice to see a Drift vs Grip video where they don't insist on holding the drift through the whole corner. That kind of driving is obviously slower, only for show. But these smaller angle, shorter drifts that actually use the car's momentum and weigth shift can be fast, this is the kind of drifting I adore and love, not the ones you see on a regular drifting event. Though I still have my doubt if it could be faster than grip driving, but I bet it could be close. Would love to see a proper race or a time trial with more laps and the proper settings, as Tsuchiya himself has mentioned as well.
slip angle sliding is used a lot in rally and is probably very slightly faster than pure grip sometimes, as people said in the comments tho, if it's a long race you need to keep it under control
The best way to mathematically optimize cornering is to get a little more rotation than you need, and slide through the apex late for the best corner exit. Look at this timestamp in this video here: th-cam.com/video/NQgL45VFl8o/w-d-xo.html and you can see that while the car is sliding, I certainly think that it got through that corner faster than a car that wasn't sliding would have.
I think depends on terrain and the turns in the course. This course had some what Tigger turns helping drift out. If it's even tighter like in most rally scenarios + have to run on soil drift is better but otherwise grip. Car setting is a big factor I know that cuz of F1
I love smaller drifts that help the car rotate in corners. Tsuchiya-san really shows his skills with minimal angle slides. I love watching him go for speed with grip too.
Most would not call that drifting because its at the ideal slip angle that maximum grip is reached. Drifting is completely different, just watch Keiichi's old drift tutorials. Honestly you probably already have.
I love how in the video if you see his grip laps and drift laps they are almost identical and from the beginning we are told that he is going "all out", He was known for his driving style utilizing slip angles, rotation, or as we are seeing it as drift techniques. If you notice in the grip video his steering wheel is still more or less straight in the corners, this is because he is sliding all four wheel through the turn, just enough to be faster than both drift or grip, because he is using both. (it is also why the end times are so similar to each other) I love seeing the Drift King making a new video for the younger generations and to show how using both is how we get faster!
"Utilizing slip angles" is done any time a car is turning at any speed. Slip angle is a physical property of a tire under load, not a driving technique.
@@Harmonic14 It is also used to describe what he is doing. In basic terms, slip angle is the difference between the direction a vehicle is travelling (known as heading or course over ground) and the direction that the body of the vehicle is pointing (true heading).
@@MikeMcCarthy240sx no, slip angle is the difference between the pointed direction of the TIRE and the direction it's traveling. Using the phrase to describe a specific driving technique is incorrect.
If you watch any F1 or LeMans cars before they put wings and stuffs, all of them are sliding. It’s not something new actually. What’s new is turning sideways on >60 degree with smokes for shows
Fastest is using whatever is in ones arsenal. Not All corner or corners are the same. Some grip in grip out is faster, while others a shallow angle drift in and grip out will be quicker or even drift out to setup for the next corner might be the answer. Who knows. But having drift skills does help.
100% with you on that, the best example I have in mind is karting where the brake acts only on the rears, some corners you can take drift in and grip out when they are tight and you better your time that way.
Drifting will always be slower, especially if you’re running on slicks, the only exception would be in rally, besides that drifting is the slowest and also your making your tires and engine hotter than optimal temperature. The most important skill is controlling the car at the limit of the grip
The key thing is maintaining proper slip angle throughout the corner. Every pro driver uses this to extract the maximum cornering grip of the tire. The problem with the setup of this R32 is similar to that of the new BRZ, and somewhat of the GR86. It understeers, and then oversteers under throttle. It won’t turn in on entry like an S2000.
This test could definitely be better and more scientific, having different Cars, FF, FR, AWD~even different wheelbases for the tests. Also having the laps to be full Grip and Fast drift laps along with taking each kind of corners into account. By full grip I mean full laps without the the car going into a drift like some tight corners in the Grip laps. I believe this would help more people understand the difference in time for drift and grip.
If you do want to learn deeper into this you can watch simracingbloke's video on grip vs drift..it's really good and it explains in the way you are saying.. though it's sim racing only and I kinda wished they did more about this here in the video
@@vedantkothari215 I will check it out! I'm just curious oh how a highly experienced driver, with deep roots in speed drifting would be able to bring the best of each style in different drivetrains for a "once and for all" showcase to end the age old question. As this video only half heartedly answer the question....
Well this wasn't exactly filmed for science; more for entertainment. Can't even see what's happening out the windscreen half of the time for the ridiculous levels of glare. They should at the very least have set the car up differently for each style... like he says, if the car was softer, drift would have prevailed.
Hey carprime, I'm really loving all the video ideas that are coming out, there's some amazing content that I've been wanting to see for a while now. One criticism I have is that you need to be more careful about the on board footage. The gopro inside is getting overexposed a lot and you can't see the road/driving at all in many moments because it's too bright. There's a lot of valuable driving footage so I would love to see it all. I think that it would be nice to have a footwork camera and a Aim solo 2 or similar so you can use a telemetry overlay on the driving footage. It's more work but I think it'll make the driving footage much more valuable. Cheers!
It's pretty interesting, and thanks for the comparison at the end. Grip is better not only at times but with car preservation in a general way. Tires, suspension, clutch, almost everything suffers more while drifting and also wears down more and faster by consequence. Drift is way more fun but on a specific race.
Awesome comparison! On this tight track, the drift had more advantage in terms of better exit angle that benefited in earlier longitudinal traction for acceleration as well as with quicker rotation of the car, compared to girp. As Tsuchiya-San said, if the suspension would have been softer (most probably quick bump and rebound were too stiff, but spring could be also too stiff), then the quick bumps wouldn't force Tsuchiya-San to do so many corrections on throttle and steering. I would also say that even with grip Tsuchiya-San was using the "slip angle" technique, because it's the most noticeable technique. If you can hear tires screeching, but car is still going in the same direction, without tires sliding like in full drift, it's the slip angle. But with drift there is also the angle of attack! Quick explanation of what is the angle of attack: 0° Angle of attack: car is pointed straight and car is going straight 45° Angle of attack: car is pointed at 45° to where it's actually going 90° Angle of attack: car is pointed to the left/right at the right angle and car is going straight So the grip and drift depends on tire compound, suspension geometry, suspension stiffness, chassis and body stiffness, camber of the road, how much rubber is on the track and so on. It can be different for every scenario, so the so called "in between" is what Time Attack is all about! Finding that sweet spot of compromises: is it more beneficial to grip here, so you can have better mid-turn speed or slide a bit mid-turn to have better exit approach. I'd love to see more of time attack with that technique by Tsuchiya-San!
@Joshua no because we all know how Nakazato is very Anti Drift guy. Mr. Doriya is very talented guy. So this question is nothing for Mr. Doriya. This discussion is a very good lesson for Nakazato.
I really like the loose camera for the on board shot, how it flows in response to G-forces is actually really cool. With some more aggressive aero I'm certain the gap between grip and drift would widen considerably, though with limited aero it is closer than I expected.
I agree with a lot of people saying that it is merely situation based where an entry drift can be beneficial. My example is when I was karting, the whole track I was hard on grip and getting the right driving line and being right on the edge of traction using all the trac I could squeeze my kart on. The last corner is a sharp hairpin left with plenty of track before the corner. My mate is infront, he takes a wide entry angle to clip the apex but he ended up being a bit wide, I came in super hot with a sharper entry angle to the apex, I threw myself in sideways, drifting basically straight at him as he is mid corner, my angle pushing me infront of him as I managed to get traction just on the apex, putting power down exiting the corner taking it wide down the straight and took the 🏆 I am by know means at all a racing or drifting expert haha. Though I feel this sort of drifting DK displayed is purely the only way it could be faster in situations rather than just drifting every corner because you can.
Like the tarmac rally drivers it's a mix of grip and drift probably around 70%grip 30%drift and let's be honest you don't get better drivers that the WRC
i wouldnt say rally drivers is the best, but i will admit that they got the biggest guts when it comes to driving. by any chances, have you ever felt F1s G-Force? or maybe just comp go-karts? their G-Force is crazy. i believe its harder to drive an F1 car rather than a rally car on an asphalt even with the right tires on. i believe every drivers has their own pros and cons, hence i said what ive said.
@@pan17awa I think they do get a lot of g force too..I am not sure if it exactly is g force but unlike F1 wrc drivers have to run in rough terrains not smooth roads..also the risk of driving so fast on public roads as well as on gravel sort of makes wrc more crazy and thrilling..imo it's like comparing dogs and cats, they are basically different categories but they are both best in what they do.
@@vedantkothari215 ive tried sim rigs with real F1 G-Force and it kicks really hard (idk if the feeling is 100% same like the real one). me and my dad used to do rally, sprint, etc with our TE27 and AE86 levin. i can say the G-Force is different, F1 G-Force kicks harder, way harder. but if you put it that way, i agree with what youve said. 😁
@@pan17awa different is a f1 car is built for going fas handling g forces and drifting and the track is always in perfect condition 2 race while WRC is a complete different thing car is built to handle it but everything is different and u have to be a really good driver 2 even drive as fast as the pro drivers. and even so they crash very often .
I think there's a bit of confusion here. Grip racers use trail braking to introduce slip angle, which is indeed a bit of a slide in the middle of the corner. That's what the DK is referring to - a bit of angle to face towards the exit sooner and throttling out of the corner is quite ideal, and is used regularly. I'm pretty sure we all came here to see some wicked handbrake rips and massive drift angle through the whole corner, from entry to exit. That's obviously slower, and is not demonstrated in this video for that reason. In my opinion, all of his laps were quite similar - he got plenty of angle in his grip run, but he accelerated a bit early out of some corners and kicked out the back-end. The true fastest way to race is definitely in between these two techniques.
Trail braking doesn't cause a loss of traction, it keeps the weight of the car shifted forward so the front tires have more pressure on them thus you can turn in harder. There is no sliding, just weight transfer to put more pressure on the front for more grip on corner entry.
@@demomanchaos There is a bit of sliding in the back wheels. It's not much, it's like less than 5 degrees, but that's the result of the weight transferred to the front wheels. The rear wheels have relatively less traction, and the increased ability to turn in sharply makes the back wheels experience a bit of translational movement. It's not major, but it makes a significant difference. It's why it's called "slip" angle - because the back tyres are slipping slightly. I reckon, anyway.
I enjoy this video very much. This is the kind of drift I like, the old kind of drift for speed and you can hear him saying if the suspension is softer the drift will be even faster.
I remember watching the option and vtec club videos all the time, I say watching, but reading them since they were purely in Japanese! Loved every bit of them and watching him drive, it's art in purist form.
When this man doesn’t speak, better watch your mirrors this man will pass you cuz he’s DK, you can Fr see his legend aura come out. That’s a grim reaper samurai coming for you 🔥💯
And again after 30 year's. Tsuchiya is going to show for the kids then, how great car's and car culture were back then, at the 80's/90's, 50-70 years a go. And he is going to be 96 year's young then...
@@alexrain1188 f1 they also need to take tire degration into account, also they have so much downforce they have enough grip for the fast change in direction, its when grip relies on almost only the weight of the car that drifting through a corner can be faster, look at rally where grip is so small they have no choice but to drift through every corner.
@@alexrain1188 Formula 1 cars DID drift, until they got aero. See here: th-cam.com/video/NQgL45VFl8o/w-d-xo.html Aero lets you make a car rotate in a stable way that doesn't require counter-steer, but it's effectively the same mechanical action. You want the car to rotate a little more than it needs to, so you can take the apex as late as possible so that you can have the fastest corner exit speed possible.
@@alexrain1188 F1 cars drifts, but on a very low angle, and their high speed makes it impossible to notice with eyes but slow motion camera. Instead of drifts, let’s call it powerslide cause nowadays people think drift as >60 degree turning sideways with full of smoke and engine revving at 8K rpm the whole time
@@scylla4342 yupp people doesn't actually acknowledge this kind of drifting most of them just want to hear the engine revving sound and the smoke and also the angle as you mentioned and also not to mention those fast and furious fan boys...
I know there are lots of rally drivers but i think this test just can be done by DK if we really wanna set the debate ¡and he does it with the best car of the worl!
6:59-7:19 Oh, DK is actually saying something there,but it’s both inaudible and didn’t mentioned on subs. I doubt that the mention about “serious without words” was just a excuse for bad recordings. They also missed many conversations that is not unimportant on English subtitles.
i think that grip’s main objective is to exit a corner with the most speed as possible, but drift’s main objective is to go through a corner fast as possible.
The real difference between drifting and gripping a corner is that gripping a corner allows you to maintain your speed out of the corner giving you a better exit , on the other hand drifting allows you to enter the corner at higher speeds but at the cost of your exit speed which is why grip is considered to be faster most of the time but this does not apply to every discipline of racing. For example, Rally/RallyX drivers will slide a corner to get better rotation out of the car to get faster cornering and exits. So I guess the propper answer to this question would be it depends
Do you know that Tsuchiya learned drifting from Takahashi, who in turn learned it from Roger Clarke, a British rally driver? Who was driving RWD Ford Escort Mk2 up to it's limits way before the Group B?
I drift on RC. Both AWD and RWD. Both had advantage and dis on cornering and speed aspect. AWD can clear corner faster while RWD is better for technical corner.
if the suspension was softer, you would get faster lap times in both settings because it prolonges adhesion through bumpy sections. the only issue i have with this test is that they were comparing a car that doesn't seem very well setup for either grip or drift but using the same tires means it is a fair comparison however tires are a huge detail for drifting.
I see. Thought the results were closer than I wouldn't thought. If you're really really pushing on the time attack naturally you will slide or break traction a bit anyways. If you can spare the tyres then a little bit of drift won't hurt and it'll look cool 😆
drift for life lol What I'd be extremely interested if it was ever possible, was if you guys ever closed off specific downhill touge roads like in Tokyo Extreme Racer and do more in depth testing there, that would be a dream. Always wondered more specifically on the effects of the downhill slope vs the usual circuit for real life anyway. Much more dangerous though... Thanks for the video, it's cool Tsuchiya did this recent drift vs grip video. I've gotta check out the original one he did for Hot Version some time!
@@sumtingwong665 Yeah yeah agreed four wheel drift vs drift is different. Well I guess so yeah, I don't know much differences different wheelbase would have but I'm sure it's fine with any though hm? The circuit thing of course has been seen but I would've just liked to see the action of that including/utilizing the slopes of the downhill lol
It's simple. Wanna have fun? Drift. Want to smash some lap times and actually be fast? Grip. He was obviously right if the suspension was soft drift would be faster especially since it's awd. But one must take into account the kind of track he's in. He was literally in 3rd the whole grip lap and was still faster
This is why I kinda adopted a hybrid style for when I do touge on the games I play so then I can react better to severe understeer or other cars spinning and upsetting my cars stability because it's bound to happen it's just you gonna have to know how tire wear and heat can mess with your driving on a long run
I think drift can be used in different scenarios like not letting someone pass after gaining the lead, quick turn transitions,learning how not to wipe out...
Assuming you mean in a real sanctioned race, that would most likely result in getting black flagged, but of course it would depend on the marshals and how obviously purposeful it was.
I would expect mild rear slip angles to be faster in late period Group A cars but at the cost of lap times dropping off faster than they would by minimising the oversteer as much as possible. So over a qualifying lap for instance I'd actually expect "spectacular" to be at least as fast as "boring" but over the length of a race I reckon the tyre degradation from all that sliding would result in poor lap times after as little as 10 to 15 minutes.
i think drift vs grip is more about each individual corner and the line you are on and whether you need to rotate the car, i feel like this skill is more valuable on corner entry then exit but that may change because of turbo lag where a small amount of wheelspin will keep the engine in boost and not lagging or bogging, maybe more true in 4wd cars.
For those wondering, the video shows grip was only 0.2 faster. However DK says if the suspension was softer, the drift time would be FASTER than grip. I have been saying it for years. Drift is faster. When you think about grip, you take a corner as fast as possible without losing traction. Now take it just slightly faster, and you drift. Its common sense that drift would be faster. NO, I am not talking about D1 show drifting with super wide angles and destroying tires. When you take a corner at speed, there is a point where grip disappears and drift takes over. This is the "sweet spot" for racing. I actually got really good at this on highway off ramps. Come in hot doing like 80mph, brake late which dips the front end, turn in with the extra grip on front tires and less grip on rear, rear kicks out, power over, and you can take the corner at 60mph. You can't do that with grip. Grip is slower. No one has been able to keep up with me in the twisties. Even back when I used to drive the slowest car at car meets, when we would go back road driving I would always end up keeping up, because although my straight line was slow as balls, I knew how to corner better. Classic initial D where the car is slow straight line up can corner like a monster. Its all about knowing how to drive, and sadly most people today who brag about being skilled aren't. I remember watching an older video of DK making D1 drivers drift a stock Miata and pretty much none of them could do it. Because they all suck at driving. Their D1 cars are modified to make that style drifting easier. They actually have zero skill.... hell, ive beaten people in fully built and boosted STI's making 800whp because they can't actually drive for shit. Sure in a straight line they are all "im the best" but the moment you go back road racing they can't keep up. End of the day, there are two kinds of drifting, speed drift and show drift. Speed drifting is faster than grip racing and show drifting is much much slower than grip racing.
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It's nice to see a Drift vs Grip video where they don't insist on holding the drift through the whole corner. That kind of driving is obviously slower, only for show. But these smaller angle, shorter drifts that actually use the car's momentum and weigth shift can be fast, this is the kind of drifting I adore and love, not the ones you see on a regular drifting event.
Though I still have my doubt if it could be faster than grip driving, but I bet it could be close. Would love to see a proper race or a time trial with more laps and the proper settings, as Tsuchiya himself has mentioned as well.
slip angle sliding is used a lot in rally and is probably very slightly faster than pure grip sometimes, as people said in the comments tho, if it's a long race you need to keep it under control
The best way to mathematically optimize cornering is to get a little more rotation than you need, and slide through the apex late for the best corner exit. Look at this timestamp in this video here: th-cam.com/video/NQgL45VFl8o/w-d-xo.html and you can see that while the car is sliding, I certainly think that it got through that corner faster than a car that wasn't sliding would have.
I think depends on terrain and the turns in the course. This course had some what Tigger turns helping drift out. If it's even tighter like in most rally scenarios + have to run on soil drift is better but otherwise grip. Car setting is a big factor I know that cuz of F1
@@xavier4519 It is literally the definition of pure grip, as tires need a little bit of slip angle to gain maximum traction
THANK YOU
In a 20 lap race, drifting will chew up the tyres. Part of racing is tyre conservation so that you still have grip towards the end of the race.
There is a difference between drift use for race and the so call common drifting, you need to know the difference first.
@@TerryFT86 ok captain obvious.
@@dd-oq7jm likewise to you
You're talking about a guy that raced more than once in the 24h of Le Mans... lol
If you use both drift and grip you can pull out a really good lap, you just need to know when to use which one
All you need the green tsuchiya drip
I love smaller drifts that help the car rotate in corners. Tsuchiya-san really shows his skills with minimal angle slides. I love watching him go for speed with grip too.
My bet is with the in-between area. Some would call it the "slip angle" most would still call it drifting though.
yeah slip angle with almost zero counter steer
his first run was that
I would call it perfect drift
Most would not call that drifting because its at the ideal slip angle that maximum grip is reached. Drifting is completely different, just watch Keiichi's old drift tutorials. Honestly you probably already have.
Ive read "[...] most would still can't Drifting though"
Let’s not forget any GT-R with the ATTESA system is very difficult to drift or even powerslide properly. Tsuchiya-san is god hand and god foot in one.
God-hand and God-foot combined, very unique.
So basically Bunta?
Subject old as drifting itself, but when DK's speaking, we listen 🙌✊❤
There can be only one
Donky kong?
@@coltonhunt1926 Drift King
Luckily we can do all virtually without damage any expensive cars
It's scary how technical the course is. The car never gets a chance to settle between corners. And Tsuchiya still makes it look easy.
I love how in the video if you see his grip laps and drift laps they are almost identical and from the beginning we are told that he is going "all out", He was known for his driving style utilizing slip angles, rotation, or as we are seeing it as drift techniques. If you notice in the grip video his steering wheel is still more or less straight in the corners, this is because he is sliding all four wheel through the turn, just enough to be faster than both drift or grip, because he is using both. (it is also why the end times are so similar to each other) I love seeing the Drift King making a new video for the younger generations and to show how using both is how we get faster!
"Utilizing slip angles" is done any time a car is turning at any speed. Slip angle is a physical property of a tire under load, not a driving technique.
@@Harmonic14 It is also used to describe what he is doing.
In basic terms, slip angle is the difference between the direction a vehicle is travelling (known as heading or course over ground) and the direction that the body of the vehicle is pointing (true heading).
@@MikeMcCarthy240sx no, slip angle is the difference between the pointed direction of the TIRE and the direction it's traveling.
Using the phrase to describe a specific driving technique is incorrect.
If you watch any F1 or LeMans cars before they put wings and stuffs, all of them are sliding. It’s not something new actually. What’s new is turning sideways on >60 degree with smokes for shows
Fastest is using whatever is in ones arsenal. Not All corner or corners are the same. Some grip in grip out is faster, while others a shallow angle drift in and grip out will be quicker or even drift out to setup for the next corner might be the answer. Who knows. But having drift skills does help.
Practice makes perfect
100% with you on that, the best example I have in mind is karting where the brake acts only on the rears, some corners you can take drift in and grip out when they are tight and you better your time that way.
Drifting will always be slower, especially if you’re running on slicks, the only exception would be in rally, besides that drifting is the slowest and also your making your tires and engine hotter than optimal temperature. The most important skill is controlling the car at the limit of the grip
@@arisfaria2723 yes maybe but slip angle is part of grip control
@@emmanuellehuu8818 right, that 1/8th second slide could save you a brake check to acceleration, upshift or a downshift coming in hot!!
No transfer cases were harmed in the making of this video.
So nice to hear the engine noise! Great sound 👌👌
The key thing is maintaining proper slip angle throughout the corner. Every pro driver uses this to extract the maximum cornering grip of the tire. The problem with the setup of this R32 is similar to that of the new BRZ, and somewhat of the GR86. It understeers, and then oversteers under throttle. It won’t turn in on entry like an S2000.
This test could definitely be better and more scientific, having different Cars, FF, FR, AWD~even different wheelbases for the tests. Also having the laps to be full Grip and Fast drift laps along with taking each kind of corners into account. By full grip I mean full laps without the the car going into a drift like some tight corners in the Grip laps. I believe this would help more people understand the difference in time for drift and grip.
If you do want to learn deeper into this you can watch simracingbloke's video on grip vs drift..it's really good and it explains in the way you are saying.. though it's sim racing only and I kinda wished they did more about this here in the video
@@vedantkothari215 I will check it out! I'm just curious oh how a highly experienced driver, with deep roots in speed drifting would be able to bring the best of each style in different drivetrains for a "once and for all" showcase to end the age old question. As this video only half heartedly answer the question....
Well this wasn't exactly filmed for science; more for entertainment. Can't even see what's happening out the windscreen half of the time for the ridiculous levels of glare. They should at the very least have set the car up differently for each style... like he says, if the car was softer, drift would have prevailed.
@@vedantkothari215 no, that shit is bullshit my guy, dont believe what simracingbloke says.
@@thijskipkop that so, how about ypu prove him wrong instead of calling him out.
Following from Spain, Tsuchiya-san you're the best!!!
Hola compadre!
@@ElChasco_official Buenas, que tal?
Saludos compañeros. A ver si prueban algun cupra español
@@Alberto-cm3ne Estaria muy bien la verdad 😍
@@Alberto-cm3ne sería bastante interesante
Hey carprime, I'm really loving all the video ideas that are coming out, there's some amazing content that I've been wanting to see for a while now. One criticism I have is that you need to be more careful about the on board footage. The gopro inside is getting overexposed a lot and you can't see the road/driving at all in many moments because it's too bright. There's a lot of valuable driving footage so I would love to see it all. I think that it would be nice to have a footwork camera and a Aim solo 2 or similar so you can use a telemetry overlay on the driving footage. It's more work but I think it'll make the driving footage much more valuable. Cheers!
I'm extremely impressed with Tsuchiya san's restraint on the grip portion.
It's pretty interesting, and thanks for the comparison at the end.
Grip is better not only at times but with car preservation in a general way. Tires, suspension, clutch, almost everything suffers more while drifting and also wears down more and faster by consequence.
Drift is way more fun but on a specific race.
Awesome comparison!
On this tight track, the drift had more advantage in terms of better exit angle that benefited in earlier longitudinal traction for acceleration as well as with quicker rotation of the car, compared to girp. As Tsuchiya-San said, if the suspension would have been softer (most probably quick bump and rebound were too stiff, but spring could be also too stiff), then the quick bumps wouldn't force Tsuchiya-San to do so many corrections on throttle and steering.
I would also say that even with grip Tsuchiya-San was using the "slip angle" technique, because it's the most noticeable technique. If you can hear tires screeching, but car is still going in the same direction, without tires sliding like in full drift, it's the slip angle.
But with drift there is also the angle of attack! Quick explanation of what is the angle of attack:
0° Angle of attack: car is pointed straight and car is going straight
45° Angle of attack: car is pointed at 45° to where it's actually going
90° Angle of attack: car is pointed to the left/right at the right angle and car is going straight
So the grip and drift depends on tire compound, suspension geometry, suspension stiffness, chassis and body stiffness, camber of the road, how much rubber is on the track and so on. It can be different for every scenario, so the so called "in between" is what Time Attack is all about! Finding that sweet spot of compromises: is it more beneficial to grip here, so you can have better mid-turn speed or slide a bit mid-turn to have better exit approach.
I'd love to see more of time attack with that technique by Tsuchiya-San!
Takeshi Nakazato joined the discussion.
*Can you keep up with my R?*
板金王
Takeshi? More like Mr. Doriya himself.
@Joshua no because we all know how Nakazato is very Anti Drift guy. Mr. Doriya is very talented guy. So this question is nothing for Mr. Doriya. This discussion is a very good lesson for Nakazato.
I really like the loose camera for the on board shot, how it flows in response to G-forces is actually really cool.
With some more aggressive aero I'm certain the gap between grip and drift would widen considerably, though with limited aero it is closer than I expected.
i think you mixed drift and powersliding . each curve is a story unto itself . Nice video
Hi dad
I agree with a lot of people saying that it is merely situation based where an entry drift can be beneficial. My example is when I was karting, the whole track I was hard on grip and getting the right driving line and being right on the edge of traction using all the trac I could squeeze my kart on. The last corner is a sharp hairpin left with plenty of track before the corner. My mate is infront, he takes a wide entry angle to clip the apex but he ended up being a bit wide, I came in super hot with a sharper entry angle to the apex, I threw myself in sideways, drifting basically straight at him as he is mid corner, my angle pushing me infront of him as I managed to get traction just on the apex, putting power down exiting the corner taking it wide down the straight and took the 🏆
I am by know means at all a racing or drifting expert haha. Though I feel this sort of drifting DK displayed is purely the only way it could be faster in situations rather than just drifting every corner because you can.
so glad this channel exists
Like the tarmac rally drivers it's a mix of grip and drift probably around 70%grip 30%drift and let's be honest you don't get better drivers that the WRC
i wouldnt say rally drivers is the best, but i will admit that they got the biggest guts when it comes to driving. by any chances, have you ever felt F1s G-Force? or maybe just comp go-karts? their G-Force is crazy. i believe its harder to drive an F1 car rather than a rally car on an asphalt even with the right tires on. i believe every drivers has their own pros and cons, hence i said what ive said.
@@pan17awa I think they do get a lot of g force too..I am not sure if it exactly is g force but unlike F1 wrc drivers have to run in rough terrains not smooth roads..also the risk of driving so fast on public roads as well as on gravel sort of makes wrc more crazy and thrilling..imo it's like comparing dogs and cats, they are basically different categories but they are both best in what they do.
@@vedantkothari215 ive tried sim rigs with real F1 G-Force and it kicks really hard (idk if the feeling is 100% same like the real one). me and my dad used to do rally, sprint, etc with our TE27 and AE86 levin. i can say the G-Force is different, F1 G-Force kicks harder, way harder. but if you put it that way, i agree with what youve said. 😁
@@pan17awa you are obviously not a professional driver lol
@@pan17awa different is a f1 car is built for going fas handling g forces and drifting and the track is always in perfect condition 2 race while WRC is a complete different thing car is built to handle it but everything is different and u have to be a really good driver 2 even drive as fast as the pro drivers. and even so they crash very often .
i love this guy! thanks for the great video
I think there's a bit of confusion here. Grip racers use trail braking to introduce slip angle, which is indeed a bit of a slide in the middle of the corner. That's what the DK is referring to - a bit of angle to face towards the exit sooner and throttling out of the corner is quite ideal, and is used regularly.
I'm pretty sure we all came here to see some wicked handbrake rips and massive drift angle through the whole corner, from entry to exit. That's obviously slower, and is not demonstrated in this video for that reason.
In my opinion, all of his laps were quite similar - he got plenty of angle in his grip run, but he accelerated a bit early out of some corners and kicked out the back-end. The true fastest way to race is definitely in between these two techniques.
Trail braking doesn't cause a loss of traction, it keeps the weight of the car shifted forward so the front tires have more pressure on them thus you can turn in harder. There is no sliding, just weight transfer to put more pressure on the front for more grip on corner entry.
@@demomanchaos There is a bit of sliding in the back wheels. It's not much, it's like less than 5 degrees, but that's the result of the weight transferred to the front wheels. The rear wheels have relatively less traction, and the increased ability to turn in sharply makes the back wheels experience a bit of translational movement.
It's not major, but it makes a significant difference. It's why it's called "slip" angle - because the back tyres are slipping slightly. I reckon, anyway.
So ...
Thank you for translating this ...
I wish all creators would do this ..
As good content comes from all parts of the world ...
Great sounds and comparison.
I enjoy this video very much. This is the kind of drift I like, the old kind of drift for speed and you can hear him saying if the suspension is softer the drift will be even faster.
Best thing about this channel - I get to watch cars while practicing Japanese
The man doesn't age and its amazing.
A true ace even at 60+. Long live the king.
I remember watching the option and vtec club videos all the time, I say watching, but reading them since they were purely in Japanese! Loved every bit of them and watching him drive, it's art in purist form.
So nice..... amazing test!
the image stabilisation gives a really nice sense of the balance of the car
Mr.DK our king of all time!
When this man doesn’t speak, better watch your mirrors this man will pass you cuz he’s DK, you can Fr see his legend aura come out. That’s a grim reaper samurai coming for you 🔥💯
Coworker: so I met this new girl on the weekend, great personality, attractive, funny and interesting
Tsuchiya: sure but how’s her suspension setup
And again after 30 year's. Tsuchiya is going to show for the kids then, how great car's and car culture were back then, at the 80's/90's, 50-70 years a go. And he is going to be 96 year's young then...
amazing video!
The fastest touge sector time was achieved using grip style.
It’s true. F1 is where speed is defined, and they don’t drift.
@@alexrain1188 f1 they also need to take tire degration into account, also they have so much downforce they have enough grip for the fast change in direction, its when grip relies on almost only the weight of the car that drifting through a corner can be faster, look at rally where grip is so small they have no choice but to drift through every corner.
@@alexrain1188 Formula 1 cars DID drift, until they got aero. See here: th-cam.com/video/NQgL45VFl8o/w-d-xo.html Aero lets you make a car rotate in a stable way that doesn't require counter-steer, but it's effectively the same mechanical action. You want the car to rotate a little more than it needs to, so you can take the apex as late as possible so that you can have the fastest corner exit speed possible.
@@alexrain1188 F1 cars drifts, but on a very low angle, and their high speed makes it impossible to notice with eyes but slow motion camera. Instead of drifts, let’s call it powerslide cause nowadays people think drift as >60 degree turning sideways with full of smoke and engine revving at 8K rpm the whole time
@@scylla4342 yupp people doesn't actually acknowledge this kind of drifting most of them just want to hear the engine revving sound and the smoke and also the angle as you mentioned and also not to mention those fast and furious fan boys...
The Living Legend 🏁🍻
5:00 The passenger BRIDE seat tells you how hard this car drives
He drifts to help point the front of the car in the direction of the next corner entry. It’s very effective on a twisted track like this one.
I like drift style. Keeps you on your toes more and generally more exciting. Plus I'm personally a bit of an aggressive driver on the track
The does not make you go faster to have lower lap times.
@@awakenedsoul2638 I'm out to have fun, not chasing numbers.
@@vongdong10
That is you but still grip is better.
@@awakenedsoul2638 did I say drift was better?
@@vongdong10
Do what you want aggressive driver.
The onboard footage looks like my nan going out for a leisurely Sunday afternoon drive.
So drift and grip do the same time clock but in some cars soften the rear end can make some minor drifts to help improve the cornering
I know there are lots of rally drivers
but i think this test just can be done by DK
if we really wanna set the debate
¡and he does it with the best car of the worl!
"Grip beats drift any day get that through your thick skull!"
-Takeshi Nakazato
Great 👍Thank you ❤️
Before I kick the bucket I will shake this man's hands
What a beautiful R32. Im dying to see one in real life.
6:59-7:19
Oh, DK is actually saying something there,but it’s both inaudible and didn’t mentioned on subs.
I doubt that the mention about “serious without words” was just a excuse for bad recordings.
They also missed many conversations that is not unimportant on English subtitles.
i think that grip’s main objective is to exit a corner with the most speed as possible, but drift’s main objective is to go through a corner fast as possible.
The real difference between drifting and gripping a corner is that gripping a corner allows you to maintain your speed out of the corner giving you a better exit , on the other hand drifting allows you to enter the corner at higher speeds but at the cost of your exit speed which is why grip is considered to be faster most of the time but this does not apply to every discipline of racing. For example, Rally/RallyX drivers will slide a corner to get better rotation out of the car to get faster cornering and exits. So I guess the propper answer to this question would be it depends
We need a Max Verstappen and DK Tsuchiya meet up😩😩😫
I was thinking that a stiff suspension is better for drift than a soft one.
But I better trust this guy 🤓
On the drift section, he used a rally driving style, which is truly the best style.
When u think ur a fast n u see Tsuchiya san overtake u in a corner while drifting
Drift looks like me pushing my car to the edge in a sim
Nice to see bucket seats and harneses but he still uses original seat belt.
just fantastic!!!!
That R32 looks like a blast to drive
Man he really knows how to make that RB scream
Do you know that Tsuchiya learned drifting from Takahashi, who in turn learned it from Roger Clarke, a British rally driver? Who was driving RWD Ford Escort Mk2 up to it's limits way before the Group B?
The guy who learned perfectly the two with street racing games:😏
Great comparison! I was expecting drift (or I would call it power sliding) to be quicker in the GT-R.
drift vs grip depends on the type or road/track and the condition of the racing surfaces
ありがとＤＫさん amo que sigas haciendo vídeos así 🙌🏻🙌🏻🔥
the onboard footage where we can’t even see the track despite them having a camera for it really makes these hard to watch
I love the skylines sounds DK is driving tho
good to know that drifting is faster than grip
Took me a while to realize where all the passenger seat foam pads go.
I drift on RC. Both AWD and RWD. Both had advantage and dis on cornering and speed aspect. AWD can clear corner faster while RWD is better for technical corner.
if the suspension was softer, you would get faster lap times in both settings because it prolonges adhesion through bumpy sections. the only issue i have with this test is that they were comparing a car that doesn't seem very well setup for either grip or drift but using the same tires means it is a fair comparison however tires are a huge detail for drifting.
Technically I would call it powerslide, not drift.
Anyway great video!
Some of them were power slides a couple you can see him clearly actuate a drift like at 6:00 for example
I see. Thought the results were closer than I wouldn't thought. If you're really really pushing on the time attack naturally you will slide or break traction a bit anyways. If you can spare the tyres then a little bit of drift won't hurt and it'll look cool 😆
drift for life lol
What I'd be extremely interested if it was ever possible, was if you guys ever closed off specific downhill touge roads like in Tokyo Extreme Racer and do more in depth testing there, that would be a dream. Always wondered more specifically on the effects of the downhill slope vs the usual circuit for real life anyway. Much more dangerous though... Thanks for the video, it's cool Tsuchiya did this recent drift vs grip video. I've gotta check out the original one he did for Hot Version some time!
well its four wheel drifting, quite different from normal drifting. it works well for long wheelbase AWD cars like the R32 depending on circuit
@@sumtingwong665 Yeah yeah agreed four wheel drift vs drift is different.
Well I guess so yeah, I don't know much differences different wheelbase would have but I'm sure it's fine with any though hm? The circuit thing of course has been seen but I would've just liked to see the action of that including/utilizing the slopes of the downhill lol
Tools in the "belt", depends on needs and "circuit", car set up and yes tires concerns . Fun factor, Drift 100% 😎😎😎
7:37 WOAH, that shot was so cool!
edit: just a longer shot like with a 135mm lens would have been perfect!
It's simple. Wanna have fun? Drift. Want to smash some lap times and actually be fast? Grip.
He was obviously right if the suspension was soft drift would be faster especially since it's awd. But one must take into account the kind of track he's in. He was literally in 3rd the whole grip lap and was still faster
I think he shifted once lmao
Wanna play chess? Grip. Want a alternate to happy ending? Drift
Now this is the real Bunta Fujiwara...
almost no counter steer, I'm amazed
This is the first time I've seen him driving without speaking. 😜
This is why I kinda adopted a hybrid style for when I do touge on the games I play so then I can react better to severe understeer or other cars spinning and upsetting my cars stability because it's bound to happen it's just you gonna have to know how tire wear and heat can mess with your driving on a long run
I think drift can be used in different scenarios like not letting someone pass after gaining the lead, quick turn transitions,learning how not to wipe out...
Assuming you mean in a real sanctioned race, that would most likely result in getting black flagged, but of course it would depend on the marshals and how obviously purposeful it was.
Well he is the drift king ofcourse he can drift faster than any racer or driver. Only some can be good as him to make drifting faster in some cases
I would expect mild rear slip angles to be faster in late period Group A cars but at the cost of lap times dropping off faster than they would by minimising the oversteer as much as possible. So over a qualifying lap for instance I'd actually expect "spectacular" to be at least as fast as "boring" but over the length of a race I reckon the tyre degradation from all that sliding would result in poor lap times after as little as 10 to 15 minutes.
They should make the tires out of whatever that pen on the dash is made of. Thought the damn thing would've slid off by now.
I wanna See Tsuchiya Drive an AW11!!
i think drift vs grip is more about each individual corner and the line you are on and whether you need to rotate the car, i feel like this skill is more valuable on corner entry then exit but that may change because of turbo lag where a small amount of wheelspin will keep the engine in boost and not lagging or bogging, maybe more true in 4wd cars.
Hilarious to me that Tsuchiya is using the stock seatbelt instead of using the actual harness through the seat
I love his car! What a nice R32!!!
How interesting that the car is understeer in entry and oversteer in exit, similar to Ferrari F14T.
I like drifting for the sake of going fast rather than drifting for the sake of drifting
Thank You DK
I don't know if you did guys but I heard a rod knocking sound for a few seconds and then it disappeared, right at 0.45
Love gtr, tsuchiya
For those wondering, the video shows grip was only 0.2 faster. However DK says if the suspension was softer, the drift time would be FASTER than grip.
I have been saying it for years. Drift is faster. When you think about grip, you take a corner as fast as possible without losing traction. Now take it just slightly faster, and you drift. Its common sense that drift would be faster. NO, I am not talking about D1 show drifting with super wide angles and destroying tires. When you take a corner at speed, there is a point where grip disappears and drift takes over. This is the "sweet spot" for racing. I actually got really good at this on highway off ramps. Come in hot doing like 80mph, brake late which dips the front end, turn in with the extra grip on front tires and less grip on rear, rear kicks out, power over, and you can take the corner at 60mph. You can't do that with grip. Grip is slower. No one has been able to keep up with me in the twisties. Even back when I used to drive the slowest car at car meets, when we would go back road driving I would always end up keeping up, because although my straight line was slow as balls, I knew how to corner better. Classic initial D where the car is slow straight line up can corner like a monster. Its all about knowing how to drive, and sadly most people today who brag about being skilled aren't. I remember watching an older video of DK making D1 drivers drift a stock Miata and pretty much none of them could do it. Because they all suck at driving. Their D1 cars are modified to make that style drifting easier. They actually have zero skill.... hell, ive beaten people in fully built and boosted STI's making 800whp because they can't actually drive for shit. Sure in a straight line they are all "im the best" but the moment you go back road racing they can't keep up.
End of the day, there are two kinds of drifting, speed drift and show drift. Speed drifting is faster than grip racing and show drifting is much much slower than grip racing.
Only if you have a track with limited traction and a favourable layout