Interesting video - a diagram or map would be a really useful addition to some of your videos like this (appreciate this involves some extra work though!)
It was screaming for some mapping, wasn't it? The fascinating thing about London's rail systems is how they are so independent of the landform, so the way places are connected by rail is so different to the way places are connected by car, bike or on foot, and maps display that really well.
A map would be great. I'm from The Netherlands, I do know a bit of London (thanks to this channel, other TH-camrs and my visits to the city) but the extra details would be very appreciated. The extra work involved would pay back in views and likes.
"Would a service like this be useful?" Now that Londoners(and everyone else) has started using the railways again, I think it's a case of "Build it and they will come." In network the size of London's, the actual destination of trains doesn't seem to matter too much. It's more important to serve various useful places en-route. Any circular service can provide so many separate journey opportunities, it would surely be a guaranteed winner today. But would it just take passengers from other services? And would that be a bad thing? I'm sure a committee could spend many millions on a "feasibility study". 😁
I definitely think a proper circular train would be useful, east-west transport is shocking. I used to live in Catford and visit friends in Clapham, a 24hr bus or train along the south circular would have been so so so so useful.
The Outer Circle has been more or less recreated by Overground services. It's still not a single circular route but there are two half circles between Clapham Junction and Highbury & Islington.
I was a bit confused with all the circles. From someone not from London it might be useful if you could do a basic map ,however crude it would be just to help envision it. But again brilliant video as always.
Barry Gower I know that I could do that, but many people watch these videos when they’re out and about, and the point is that an included map in the video would be much simpler.
How is Dalston Junction the closest station to Broad Street still in operation? Obviously, you mean on the Broad Street branch, not Liverpool Street or the numerous LU stations that are closer. And it's fair enough not to count Shoreditch, since the current station is closer to the old East London Line station. And Hoxton station is a new one. But why do you ignore Haggerston station?
Your wish is my command: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Circle_(London)#/media/File:The_Circle_Routes_of_Victorian_London.png "Wheres Geoff?" And where's Vicki Pipe? Missing in action?
Unlikely to travel into London and out currently - most people would go by road when making journeys that would use a railway roughly following the M25. Which just makes such a line more useful - you aren't merely diverting people off one railway and onto another, but encouraging modal shift!
@@highpath4776 It was the railway into Staines from the North. The bit built on wouldn't have been useful as it would have had to have been rebuilt anyway to use as an airport link, being a low-quality single-track line that's the wrong side of the motorway at Heathrow - and there's nothing stopping the current plans of building a railway alongside the M25 and using the short bit of disused alignment south of the M25 to access the Staines-Windsor line. The bit they preserved (it runs through the M4/M25 junction) between West Drayton and Poyle is very useful for the airport - fuel trains can get off the mainline and pipe their fuel into a depot only about 1km from the airport.
An express bus service following the M25 diverting through the towns nearby the M25 may be more useful especially if it doesn't actually go on the M25 but just goes around like. And if it did exist a route number M25c / M25a would probably be used but I do understand that TfL isn't very fond of circular lines especially express bus services which is probably why the 725 was cut short to Croydon and renumbered X25
@@wclifton968gameplaystutorials In the same way that a rail London to Edinburgh takes 5hrs and a Megabus can take 12+hrs, a bus going on a long route around the M25, with inevitable traffic jams and who knows how many traffic lights and how much extra distance to avoid driving on the M25 would take half a day to complete a circle, useless to anyone who wants to go anywhere beyond one or two towns over. A rail on the other hand would be much faster and more likely to be used. Though rail fares in the UK are ridiculously high, so there's that too...
Great video! As you note, much of the route of the Outer Circle is now on the London Overground, which itself forms a modern-day outer circle. Today's outer circle is a complete loop, and doesn't cheat by following the Inner Circle for any of its route. You can complete the full circle with just one change: on a Sunday you can take a direct train from Clapham Junction to Highbury & Islington via the West and North London lines, then a direct train to Clapham Junction via the East and South London lines. On a weekday, if I understand correctly, the change is slightly more complicated, requiring an out-of-station interchange between Dalston Junction and Dalston Kingsland. So it seems TfL already answered your closing question - yes, an outer circle line would be useful - and went ahead and opened one!
Great to see an old video, featuring the seeds of what's become one of my favourite channels. I suppose the navigation steps were an idea that didn't pan out as a regular feature, but it made sense to try. Sydney's rail network originally had two circles that shared an arc, but one of them, the Bankstown line, got truncated at the tangent of the other, and it's planned to be converted to a metro line. A lot of people miss it going all the way around, but one long-term proposal is for the metro to become an even bigger circle. I hope you'll be around to make a video about it, if that ever happens. 🙂
0:43 ...and neither is the “Inner” Circle line now they’ve added that bit going off to Hammersmith. More like the “Q on its side line”. Not quite as snappy I suppose.
I would like the overground to do a proper new outer circle- Crystal Palace- Balham-Clapham Junction- Olympia - Willesden Junction - Highbury-Dalston - ELL. Rather than the butt end terminal platform at Clapham Junction. Also re-instating the proper SLL from Victoria - but new tunnels near london bridge to connect to Liverpool Street and thence the TFL Rail Services north out of Liverpool Street - Clapton to Clapham the Clap Clap service
From Memory, there was the Middle Circle - Basically the Overground route conecting District and Metropolitan District At Addison Road ( Olympia ), with the Outer Circle a Bigger loop possibly taking the further Willesden Junc Route. Willesden Junc despirately needs the main line station re-instating, after HS2 having a stop there would not slow WC services down significantly for great improvements, not least the erratic Points South to Watford Milton Keynes Northampton Via WLL.
Probably wouldn't be useful - circular routes are rather pointless in the grand scheme of things, no-one is going to ride their whole length, not when there are quicker routes between places. They sound good as a way to directly link places, but the current Overground/Underground network does a good enough job. I can't see demand for a one-seat ride from say, Liverpool Street to Olympia via Willesden.
@@grahamsmith9541 The circle line is the exception because it doesn't cover a huge area, and is useful to connect mainline railway stations. It's huge circles, like the Outer circle, that are less useful. Let's not forget that the circle line also doesn't run an exclusive route, most of it's route is also used by the Met and District lines. It's mainly sections like Liverpool Street to Tower Hill or South Kensington to Notting Hill Gate where the Circle is most needed.
@@hi-viz The service they provide is connecting local places. Also linking into lines operating radially from a city. Avoiding having to travel into and then back out of the city.
The inner circle is no longer a circle either, more a question mark. The Overground is nearly a circle, they just have to run trains from Clapham junction to Richmond to complete it (which won't happen).
I've now watched quite a number of Jago's videos and maps don't seem to be his thing. This is a shame, for reasons given here and in an earlier comment, and because he's up against Geoff Marshall (th-cam.com/channels/d18OhMfRmjMjzSHP7Zrzmw.html), who is very much into maps. Anyway, you'll find a good one here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Circle_(London)#/media/File:The_Circle_Routes_of_Victorian_London.png
@@jackmartinleith That may not be fair as I guess the target market for Jago's videos about London is people who know the city. Regarding Geoff, history seems to be his weak point - like when he went to Manors and looked at dis-used platforms and said "I wonder what they were for"! Jago presents us with history - GM presents us with what he sees with his eyes when he stumbles off a train. They both have a place.
I would possibly suggest re-branding the London Overground sections between Highbury & Islington and Clapham Junction as the Outer Circle, and have Overground trains still run there, but it would be nice to have a suburban circle line.
They hyped up the circle element when the ELLX bits opened, especially the Clapham Junction branch. Boris even proposed a further out 'R25' off the back of it.
@@mastertrams He was Mayor of London and was required, as part of his job, to have a Mayoral Transport Strategy - which is where the 'R25' was (and Sadiq Khan kept the important bits, just dropping the circular branding). He wasn't 'having his say', but 'doing his job'.
We already have the outer circle, but in 2 sections both routes meet at clapham junction, and highbury and islington - trains on a full circular would have to reverse at clapham junction, so its just as easy to change trains
@@Keithbarber ... But... Clapham Junction has more than just a terminating platform. Why not route the Outer Circle onto one of these platforms? As for H&I, I'll admit I'm no expert, but a simple loop of track wouldn't be too much would it?
My British Grandmother always called the Tube line the INNER CIRCLE when I lived in London W1 (Baker Street Chiltern Court) as a wee Canadian-Born boy in the 1970's. I always giggled at that not knowing that in the Steam era That was the Name!
There was an underground walkway connecting Broad Street station with Liverpool St station too. Below the public walkway I was lead to believe was a bonded warehouse?
I'm not sure whether there was a bonded warehouse, but the goods station alongside Broad Street passenger station also had a lower level with direct access to the street.
I seem to remember there was a push to make a "circle", with a proposed Watford to Uxbridge section which would have swung round London connecting maybe at the Reading-Tonbridge line but at some point pushing towards the Westerham connection, then on to Dunton Green and so forth. It was a fairly good "spider web" sort of plan with trunk routes intersecting and inner and outer circular routes allowing passengers to nimbly circumnavigate London laterally. Like many many plans it was never to really come to fruition and by the time it was revisited it was impossible to do really as building of homes had overtaken availability of permanent way land. Where the A2 intersects the M25 was a fine example for many long years was the "bridge to nowhere" first laid down as part of the original orbital motorway, there was bitter opposition to the inner London orbital motorway and the London perimeter trunk road again this spider web of many inroads junctioned by roads that would go round allowing Londoners to drive to different parts without having to enter central London.
I preferred the Circle line before it was rearranged into its current lasso line shape, and not just because I have enjoyed the odd Space Hijackers Circle Line Party, or two. I fear that as the redesign has made a previously reliable service into a terrible and non-reliable one I can only imagine that it was another one of Johnson's terrible ideas that have made London harder to navigate for, well Londoners...
That's ironic, seeing as though they stated it was supposed to make it more reliable. They stated that things got dragged out through the day and by having a firm start and end it would run smoother but I guess the bureaucrats got it wrong!
@@krissp8712 it is a real shame as it used to be the most frequent train, one that at certain times I would stand aside for to go beyond those turns and off to Barking, East Ham or where ever...
Johnson might have been Mayor when it started in '09, but it was an idea that had been kicking about in some form for at least 90 years before and it was policy behind the scenes to do it as part of the SSL Upgrade before Boris became Mayor in '08. As for the Circle line being 'previously reliable' - it was notoriously not so. So much so that, when they announced that they would make the permanent change prematurely without having done anything to prepare, the subtext was 'even if this is a disaster, it can't possibly be worse than now'. After a short period with teething troubles, reliability across the SSLs dramatically improved due to the ability to recover much more quickly thanks to finally following the mantra that years of experience had told them: "Continuously Circling Compounds Delays." (to quote TfL's document announcing the change: content.tfl.gov.uk/04-lines-Proposed-Service-Changes.pdf). So rather than blame Boris for this 'terrible idea', even though it's the cool thing (and there's lots of terrible ideas which we can legitimately blame Boris for), a much more factual thing to do is to not credit him with this successful change.
Hi Jago enjoy your tales 😃. I lived in London for 10 years loved the tube especially Northern line and outer train system! Trains are our future? What do you think of Tesla Elon Musk Boring company? thank you all the best buzz #buzzofftoxic #tiedamew #stopburingstuff
Great video Jago! Maybe a map to accompany this (and for the video on the 'Middle Circle') would be really help with visualising where the routes used to run. 👍🏾
I think we should bring back the London Ringways Project, but as a series of railways, rather than a series of roads. The North Circular Road and South Circular Road both have a lot of traffic on them. We could probably plonk an elevated railway directly on top of the North Circular Road, for most of the route, with the actual railway stations being built to reconnect all the communities cut in half by the North Circular Road. (Building a pair of shopping centres either side of the North Circular, with a railway station in between them would give people a through route, that was also a community hub.) In South London, things would not be quite as easy. But we do have a number of big parks in South London, that the South Circular Road passes. They would be excellent places to drop in Underground stations, as well as a network of cycle routes and walking routes that promote those stations. A North Circular / South Circular Railway, might not bring in a ton of cash, but it would justify us removing a lane from the North Circular Road and South Circular Road and making the entire route have bi-directional bus lanes. The long term plan, should be to rehabilitate that orbital ring down to a pair of traffic lanes (one in each direction) with the traffic down to levels that pose a much lower health risk on people living next to them.
Broad St could have had a future with services on the WCML as far as Milton Keynes and later as a terminus for the Overground. There was potential for the station from the mid eighties onwards as passengers numbers increased into London, but it was left to die.
No, Broad Street could not, would not and should not have a future. It was left to die because it had only 6,000 passenger journeys per week. The NLL is now at capacity and would not be able to take trains from the WCML. Marylebone had potential, Broad St no. Passenger numbers into Broad Street were declining. Services were diverted to North Woolwich. It had no direct access to a main line and would have to use the busy North London Line as far as Camden Road to access the West Coast Main Line. The NLL and the ELL extension are great additions to the network. Broad Street was not needed and still would not be. The money from the land sale has turned Liverpool Street into a great station.
I wonder what would win in a royal rumble match between all the circles and Ringways (if it were fully completed)... That would definitely be A LOT OF CIRCLES, but only one true circle; the squared circle!
My route into London in my commuting years was into Liverpool Street (1970s-80s), so I was very familiar with Broad Street which had a frontage that was more impressive than its next door terminus, but sadly suffered a death by a thousand cuts, its platforms being gradually reduced to two and passengers having to walk half a mile along a platform to catch a train, until surprise, surprise, passengers gave-up on it and it became prime redevelopment land; I then wound-up working for one of the numerous city firms that relocated to the new Broadgate development built on it, itself now, ironically, facing redevelopment. I've always thought that London needed a fast and efficient Outer Circle line, it's never really had one; I suppose the new Crossrail line from Shenfield to Reading via Paddington is supposed to replicate it in some respect, but by the time its eventually built people will have probably given-up commuting altogether.
And nowadays the outer circle would be the Clapham Jn - Canada Water - Highbury & Islington - Willesden Jn - Clapham Jn route of the Overground. Except trains arrive and depart CLJ from the same direction, so not really a circle in that sense.
And the London Overground Orbital route is slightly similar to the Circle Line. With the North London Line, South London Line, East London Line and West London Line as we know of today. And if Broad Street stations was still around then it would of been the terminus of the London Overground East London Line which was just short walk from London Liverpool Street and Moorgate stations.
No, it would not be particularly useful, as it is still more or less there. The big thing that is missing from London’s public transport network is an outer, outer circle line for north London. The Overground (old North London Line or Outer Circle) is much too far in to be the only orbital rail connection for north London. There is a glaring need for rail connecting the outer northern suburbs, an equivalent of the North Circular Road. One solution would be to take space out of the North Circular Road for a tramway: this really would be going back to the future, as I think this was the original intention for that road.
Great stuff very interesting but I would like to suggest you use a map or 2 it makes it much easier to visualise where these lines were and what they became.
'Outer Circle' in Glasgow refers to the clockwise side of the Subway and of ScotRail's Cathcart Circle. The latter isn't a true circle either. It used to be appled to the Fife Circle (also not a circle) but was dropped probably because 'Outer Circle' sounds like it ought to be coast first but actually it's not. Confused? Never mind.
@@JagoHazzard It'll lose a bit of character when the driverless trains come in. Mind you they'll probably be delayed longer than London CrossRail and we may get cold fusion first (or the second coming).
I love your work but I'm often a little confused by the place names ... I can pint out southward, Greenwich, Liverpool street and Euston on a map but since I'm not from London, or even the UK I quickly start to struggle. A map or diagram would be of so much help and make me enjoy your hard work a lot more. Thanks either way!
Broad street station was not really in that shopping area it was right there on Liverpool Street opposite old broad street . If you watch the Paul McCartney film give my regards to Broad street you see a nice bit of footage. Where McDonald’s is now.
Many years ago before the overground, when Olympia was only served occasionally by the district branch line from Earl's Court, there used to be a train to and from Olympia and Clapham Junction, during rush hours. This train was not advertised on the time tables and was used by workers at the Post Office building close to Olympia. It was not restricted to post office workers so if you were in the know, you could use the service. It was known as the Kenny Belle.
@@ianhelps3749 I occasionally used to see these trains at Clapham Junction in the 1980s and early 90s. Sometimes also they used a Class 73 locomotive (that could be run from the third rail supply and that also had a diesel engine), sometimes they used a Southern Region diesel-electric multiple unit and sometimes they used one of the diesel-mechanical multiple units built in the 1950s and early 60s. When they were loco-hauled they used some of the coaches that had recently been withdrawn from the London-Weymouth line, with a driver's cab at the opposite end to the loco so they could work as push-pull trains. In 1994 the Clapham Junction-Olympia service was extended to Willesden Junction and started to run all day. This service for the first few years used 1950s/60s DMUs that were from a pool that also operated the Gospel Oak to Barking line.
In the 1960s you could go direct to Broad Street for Willesden Junct. We trainspotters used to do Willesden Sheds,then go to Liverpool St via Broad St. Where the railway staff let you spot from a taxi ramp that went right into the station.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Circle_(London)#/media/File%3AThe_Circle_Routes_of_Victorian_London.png What about the super outer circle? It has my favourite abandoned/unused piece of railway and is the closest long one to london!
Also im still searching on info for the now gone section between liverpool street and the circle line, just before the metropolitan line platforms (you can kinda see it on google maps)
I'm just trying to imagine the SF Bay area WITH any sort of circle. All lines lead to downtown San Francisco- if you want to get Around or Through town your F^$#$%^. Sort of similar in the East Bay [Oakland] where a circle route would be amazing. We also dearly need a second Bay crossing [at only $10 bn if we start building with Today's dollars, it should be an easy sell...]
I remember the last day of Broad Street. It was always my favourite London Terminal. But in its last days it reminded me of a description of an abandoned Roman Temple in Saxon times! As for "Mr Punch's Railway" aka WLER It wasn't the only line that "upset" said Gentleman! As following an incident on the Herne Bay Pier tramway. During which a bonnet purchased by the editor of 'PUNCH' for his good lady got crushed! Well for many years "Mr Punch" was wont to recall the incompetence of the staff on the tramway!
But we have an Outer Circle today, of sorts, courtesy of tfl and the London Overground... Going on from Ken Olympia, south to Clapham Junction and then a quick shuftee across plat 2 to 3, jump the next Overground and plod across saarf London via Peckham ending up on way to Stratford.... (In'it) ...
Paul McCartney brought out a film in 1984 called "Give My Regards To Broad Street", which featured a few Beatles and post-Beatles songs of his. One scene was filmed (I believe) at Broad Street station and may be some of the last images of the station to be taken. My big disappointment with the film is that although it featured David Gilmour's guitar solo on "No More Lonely Nights" while McCartney was walking through the station, it didn't show Mr. Gilmour standing in the station concourse with his famous Black Strat.
Mark Lizotte (aka Johnny Diesel/Diesel) does a superb cover of Joni Mitchell's "The Circle Game". It's on his Americana album. However I think it was recorded in Australia and not actually on either the inner, outer or have a banana circle circle lines. Obviously " Oval" station couldn't be on the circle line or they'd have got a nasty visit from UK Trading Standards officers.
Back in 1978 I did pay to join "Ringrail 2000", a pressure group to create an outer London orbital railway; the Overground goes some way to acheive this, though I would have preferred something a bit more complete....
To be fair, The Circle Line has been open at the weekends but that has been my experience. I see the trains alternate between District and Circle line trains.
A video on the so called Super Outer Circle including the Dudding Hill line beckons. Good map here of all varieties: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dudding_Hill_line#/media/File%3AThe_Circle_Routes_of_Victorian_London.png
If anyone is interested in a visualisation (and a small spoiler, sorry Jago), there's a good wikipedia image of the london circle lines (inner, middle, outer and super outer): en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Circle_(London)#/media/File:The_Circle_Routes_of_Victorian_London.png
Besides Inner and Outer, and Middle....there was also a Super Outer. But speaking of Inner and Outer...those are also directions on the Circle Line, at one time tickets were printed either with an I or an O, or if the trip was long enough, an E (as in "we don't care which direction you take at this point, either one will do")
Ah the North Circular of railway lines. Like many other ambitious London projects it fell apart when someone had to inform the planners that there was a South London too.
This video is crying out for maps - please help us poor folks who don't know exactly where these places are or how close they are to each other. Even a power point would be better
But Dalston juntc is nt t nearest still in use, because they re-energized t old track re-opening some stations there, Hoxton i think, old street, an there might be another.
Of course the "inner" circle was never a circle anyway, more of a dumpy milk bottle! TfL with the Orbital parts of the Overground have created an outer circle, indeed a much better one than the original as it actually goes south of the river instead of just piggybacking on the District Line
A watched a video recently about something like that in Paris, going round the outskirts since the 19th century. There are circular bus routes in some cities, but those tend to be VERY slow.
@@faithlesshound5621 trams without separate tracks have the same problem. I work in Amsterdam, had to go to a certain place. First time I got there right from home, took me an hour to reach work afterwards, 2 changeovers (tram, tram, bus), second time I took a company car... 17 minutes.
The North London and West London Lines (and some of the former connections and extensions) are a wonderful illustration of how the needs and wants of London traffic have varied - sometimes in very short order. Who in the 1980s would have seen the created need for the passenger service that Overground has become? The freight from the docks through Dalston had already gone by the 1980s but the freight that used the West London Line extensively in the 1980s and 90s has become second fiddle to the passenger traffic. There are dreams of the 1860s that would be really useful connections now. Marylebone was luckier than Broad St - they were both in the firing line during one of the darkest periods of London's passenger railways. Any freight originating in London had long gone and anything inbound came (and still does come) by road.
Marylebone survived because Baker St and Paddington reached capacity. Also Marylebone had direct access to a Main Line, something that Broad Street lacked. keeping Broad Street for London Overground services would make absolutely no sense. 86xing Broad Street was the correct thing to do.
Another great vid and congrats on almost 15,000 subscribers. :D I'm new too, one of your tube videos suddenly popped up while I was watching Cities Skylines stuff, though I follow Geoff Marshall as well. I love the snack sized vids. Really informative and well presented. Would be great to see you do something on the London trams (ie. Kingsway)
In the late1970s we tested Class 313 EMUs from Broad St to Willesden Jn with the idea of running services from Liverpool St around the North London Line. Did that ever happen?
There is only a short stump of the old north london line viaduct that approached broad street left, most of it is demolished and the land built upon with various office blocks Shoreditch high street is about the closest they could get to the city with trains, but its not in too bad a position
Interesting video - a diagram or map would be a really useful addition to some of your videos like this (appreciate this involves some extra work though!)
It was screaming for some mapping, wasn't it? The fascinating thing about London's rail systems is how they are so independent of the landform, so the way places are connected by rail is so different to the way places are connected by car, bike or on foot, and maps display that really well.
A map would be great. I'm from The Netherlands, I do know a bit of London (thanks to this channel, other TH-camrs and my visits to the city) but the extra details would be very appreciated. The extra work involved would pay back in views and likes.
You'll find a good map here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Circle_(London)#/media/File:The_Circle_Routes_of_Victorian_London.png
@@jackmartinleith Thank you!
@@jackmartinleith That's one of mine!
"Would a service like this be useful?" Now that Londoners(and everyone else) has started using the railways again, I think it's a case of "Build it and they will come." In network the size of London's, the actual destination of trains doesn't seem to matter too much. It's more important to serve various useful places en-route. Any circular service can provide so many separate journey opportunities, it would surely be a guaranteed winner today. But would it just take passengers from other services? And would that be a bad thing? I'm sure a committee could spend many millions on a "feasibility study". 😁
I definitely think a proper circular train would be useful, east-west transport is shocking. I used to live in Catford and visit friends in Clapham, a 24hr bus or train along the south circular would have been so so so so useful.
Of course it would be useful and obviously feasible.
The Outer Circle has been more or less recreated by Overground services. It's still not a single circular route but there are two half circles between Clapham Junction and Highbury & Islington.
A map would have been handy!
Interesting videos, plain narration and no silly or dramatic music... subscribed 🙂
Thanks!
I was a bit confused with all the circles. From someone not from London it might be useful if you could do a basic map ,however crude it would be just to help envision it. But again brilliant video as always.
Like a circle in a spiral, like a wheel within a wheel; never ending or beginning, like an ever-spinning reel...
I find this very difficult to visualise without a map... but great video otherwise :)
Get hold of a current TfL map and use an over marker to follow the route described.
Barry Gower I know that I could do that, but many people watch these videos when they’re out and about, and the point is that an included map in the video would be much simpler.
And I thought that you had to be a magician to travel in the Inner Circle!
nono, you have to be an illusionist to travel in the madjick circle...
I thought it'll be about the overground between H&I and Clapham Junction. Haha. Great vid!
Same track as the north London line ran on between Shoreditch high street to Dalston.
I'm glad I learnt this after I finished school. "Work out the circumference of the inner circle + outer circle" 😂
Piece of pi?
@@neilbain8736 Greggs is closed at present.
Dont forget to divide those by the distance between Leicester Square and Covent Garden
How is Dalston Junction the closest station to Broad Street still in operation? Obviously, you mean on the Broad Street branch, not Liverpool Street or the numerous LU stations that are closer. And it's fair enough not to count Shoreditch, since the current station is closer to the old East London Line station. And Hoxton station is a new one. But why do you ignore Haggerston station?
What year did they close Dalston junction? i think it was 1982 might have been 1983, adn then i have no idea when they reopened it?
@@shooshoodemoo2610 mid 80's it closed. The current station opened in 2010.
@@markcf83 Thanks you mark:)
A (historical) map would be great in this video. If he showed the old route and stations compared to today's situation would help us a lot (I guess).
The closest station of those that existed on the outer circle, he was following the route of the outer circle, this is a video about the outer circle.
I didnt know the 3rd platform/track had gone - only saw that here! Thanks for breaking it gently...
We need a diogram! Wheres Geoff?
Your wish is my command: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Circle_(London)#/media/File:The_Circle_Routes_of_Victorian_London.png
"Wheres Geoff?" And where's Vicki Pipe? Missing in action?
a line flowing the m25 may save some people time and stop them going in to London just to come right back out at a different angle
Unlikely to travel into London and out currently - most people would go by road when making journeys that would use a railway roughly following the M25. Which just makes such a line more useful - you aren't merely diverting people off one railway and onto another, but encouraging modal shift!
@@sihollett the M25 was part built on the Trackbed of the railway into Staines from the South ? which would have been useful for heathrow.
@@highpath4776 It was the railway into Staines from the North. The bit built on wouldn't have been useful as it would have had to have been rebuilt anyway to use as an airport link, being a low-quality single-track line that's the wrong side of the motorway at Heathrow - and there's nothing stopping the current plans of building a railway alongside the M25 and using the short bit of disused alignment south of the M25 to access the Staines-Windsor line. The bit they preserved (it runs through the M4/M25 junction) between West Drayton and Poyle is very useful for the airport - fuel trains can get off the mainline and pipe their fuel into a depot only about 1km from the airport.
An express bus service following the M25 diverting through the towns nearby the M25 may be more useful especially if it doesn't actually go on the M25 but just goes around like. And if it did exist a route number M25c / M25a would probably be used but I do understand that TfL isn't very fond of circular lines especially express bus services which is probably why the 725 was cut short to Croydon and renumbered X25
@@wclifton968gameplaystutorials In the same way that a rail London to Edinburgh takes 5hrs and a Megabus can take 12+hrs, a bus going on a long route around the M25, with inevitable traffic jams and who knows how many traffic lights and how much extra distance to avoid driving on the M25 would take half a day to complete a circle, useless to anyone who wants to go anywhere beyond one or two towns over. A rail on the other hand would be much faster and more likely to be used. Though rail fares in the UK are ridiculously high, so there's that too...
Great video! As you note, much of the route of the Outer Circle is now on the London Overground, which itself forms a modern-day outer circle. Today's outer circle is a complete loop, and doesn't cheat by following the Inner Circle for any of its route. You can complete the full circle with just one change: on a Sunday you can take a direct train from Clapham Junction to Highbury & Islington via the West and North London lines, then a direct train to Clapham Junction via the East and South London lines. On a weekday, if I understand correctly, the change is slightly more complicated, requiring an out-of-station interchange between Dalston Junction and Dalston Kingsland.
So it seems TfL already answered your closing question - yes, an outer circle line would be useful - and went ahead and opened one!
Great to see an old video, featuring the seeds of what's become one of my favourite channels. I suppose the navigation steps were an idea that didn't pan out as a regular feature, but it made sense to try.
Sydney's rail network originally had two circles that shared an arc, but one of them, the Bankstown line, got truncated at the tangent of the other, and it's planned to be converted to a metro line. A lot of people miss it going all the way around, but one long-term proposal is for the metro to become an even bigger circle. I hope you'll be around to make a video about it, if that ever happens. 🙂
0:43 ...and neither is the “Inner” Circle line now they’ve added that bit going off to Hammersmith.
More like the “Q on its side line”. Not quite as snappy I suppose.
Someone must have had a Brio Railway when they were younger to come up with that. H&C needs extending at Barking to Barking Creek and the Thames.
I'd prefer "The squiggle line".
They should close the loop and just have the Hammersmith and city handle the branch. #MakeTheCircleCircularAgain
Eric Lund's map is very smart showing the Outer and Middle Circle routes: drive.google.com/file/d/10Zxs2JfGtA3oN3o8_iKnjESUKHdT4rKj/view
I guess you could do an outer circle today by taking the Overground from Clapham Junction to Highbury & Islington, and back going the other way.
I would like the overground to do a proper new outer circle- Crystal Palace- Balham-Clapham Junction- Olympia - Willesden Junction - Highbury-Dalston - ELL. Rather than the butt end terminal platform at Clapham Junction. Also re-instating the proper SLL from Victoria - but new tunnels near london bridge to connect to Liverpool Street and thence the TFL Rail Services north out of Liverpool Street - Clapton to Clapham the Clap Clap service
A circle all the way round zone 4 would be useful
Agree a map would help. I have a migraine starting now. 😂😂😂
This channel is tragically underviewed.
There is also an Outer Circle line route via Latimer Road and Olympia instead of Notting Hill Gate, ran until 1940
From Memory, there was the Middle Circle - Basically the Overground route conecting District and Metropolitan District At Addison Road ( Olympia ), with the Outer Circle a Bigger loop possibly taking the further Willesden Junc Route. Willesden Junc despirately needs the main line station re-instating, after HS2 having a stop there would not slow WC services down significantly for great improvements, not least the erratic Points South to Watford Milton Keynes Northampton Via WLL.
Probably wouldn't be useful - circular routes are rather pointless in the grand scheme of things, no-one is going to ride their whole length, not when there are quicker routes between places. They sound good as a way to directly link places, but the current Overground/Underground network does a good enough job. I can't see demand for a one-seat ride from say, Liverpool Street to Olympia via Willesden.
That is like saying the Circle line is Useless. Because no one will use it to travel from Liverpool Street to Notting Hill Gate.
@@grahamsmith9541 The circle line is the exception because it doesn't cover a huge area, and is useful to connect mainline railway stations. It's huge circles, like the Outer circle, that are less useful. Let's not forget that the circle line also doesn't run an exclusive route, most of it's route is also used by the Met and District lines. It's mainly sections like Liverpool Street to Tower Hill or South Kensington to Notting Hill Gate where the Circle is most needed.
@@hi-viz The service they provide is connecting local places. Also linking into lines operating radially from a city. Avoiding having to travel into and then back out of the city.
they are useful as avoiding lines during repairs, renewals or damage to other primary routes.
please please please please will use a map to illustrate your point
The inner circle is no longer a circle either, more a question mark. The Overground is nearly a circle, they just have to run trains from Clapham junction to Richmond to complete it (which won't happen).
Paul Queripel The Circle line is a teacup.
The Overground forms a circle by connecting Clapham Junction to Willesden Junction on the West London Line.
The Overground has an outer circle, it just requires you to change at Highbury and Islington and Clapham Junction
It is a Circle via Imperial Wharfe and a “same platform” change at Clapham Junction.
A map definitely would have helped.
Was going to say that. My London geography isn't bad .. but I got lost.
I've now watched quite a number of Jago's videos and maps don't seem to be his thing. This is a shame, for reasons given here and in an earlier comment, and because he's up against Geoff Marshall (th-cam.com/channels/d18OhMfRmjMjzSHP7Zrzmw.html), who is very much into maps. Anyway, you'll find a good one here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Circle_(London)#/media/File:The_Circle_Routes_of_Victorian_London.png
@@jackmartinleith wow... that's a lot of circles
@@jackmartinleith That may not be fair as I guess the target market for Jago's videos about London is people who know the city. Regarding Geoff, history seems to be his weak point - like when he went to Manors and looked at dis-used platforms and said "I wonder what they were for"! Jago presents us with history - GM presents us with what he sees with his eyes when he stumbles off a train. They both have a place.
I would possibly suggest re-branding the London Overground sections between Highbury & Islington and Clapham Junction as the Outer Circle, and have Overground trains still run there, but it would be nice to have a suburban circle line.
They hyped up the circle element when the ELLX bits opened, especially the Clapham Junction branch. Boris even proposed a further out 'R25' off the back of it.
@@sihollett Oh for crying out loud! Boris always has to have his say on something doesn't he.
@@mastertrams He was Mayor of London and was required, as part of his job, to have a Mayoral Transport Strategy - which is where the 'R25' was (and Sadiq Khan kept the important bits, just dropping the circular branding). He wasn't 'having his say', but 'doing his job'.
We already have the outer circle, but in 2 sections both routes meet at clapham junction, and highbury and islington - trains on a full circular would have to reverse at clapham junction, so its just as easy to change trains
@@Keithbarber ... But... Clapham Junction has more than just a terminating platform. Why not route the Outer Circle onto one of these platforms? As for H&I, I'll admit I'm no expert, but a simple loop of track wouldn't be too much would it?
My British Grandmother always called the Tube line the INNER CIRCLE when I lived in London W1 (Baker Street Chiltern Court) as a wee Canadian-Born boy in the 1970's. I always giggled at that not knowing that in the Steam era That was the Name!
It was still quite widely known by that name then, though not officially for many years.
There was an underground walkway connecting Broad Street station with Liverpool St station too. Below the public walkway I was lead to believe was a bonded warehouse?
I'm not sure whether there was a bonded warehouse, but the goods station alongside Broad Street passenger station also had a lower level with direct access to the street.
Though not that old and not from London I miss Broad Street. My Grandfather used to take me into Liverpool Street and around toward Kew.
I seem to remember there was a push to make a "circle", with a proposed Watford to Uxbridge section which would have swung round London connecting maybe at the Reading-Tonbridge line but at some point pushing towards the Westerham connection, then on to Dunton Green and so forth. It was a fairly good "spider web" sort of plan with trunk routes intersecting and inner and outer circular routes allowing passengers to nimbly circumnavigate London laterally. Like many many plans it was never to really come to fruition and by the time it was revisited it was impossible to do really as building of homes had overtaken availability of permanent way land. Where the A2 intersects the M25 was a fine example for many long years was the "bridge to nowhere" first laid down as part of the original orbital motorway, there was bitter opposition to the inner London orbital motorway and the London perimeter trunk road again this spider web of many inroads junctioned by roads that would go round allowing Londoners to drive to different parts without having to enter central London.
It's the one that's always closed - lol. Thanks have been enjoying the videos.
I really like your videos, but this one really does need maps/diagrams (I know that has been mentioned by other posters too!).
I preferred the Circle line before it was rearranged into its current lasso line shape, and not just because I have enjoyed the odd Space Hijackers Circle Line Party, or two. I fear that as the redesign has made a previously reliable service into a terrible and non-reliable one I can only imagine that it was another one of Johnson's terrible ideas that have made London harder to navigate for, well Londoners...
That's ironic, seeing as though they stated it was supposed to make it more reliable. They stated that things got dragged out through the day and by having a firm start and end it would run smoother but I guess the bureaucrats got it wrong!
@@krissp8712 it is a real shame as it used to be the most frequent train, one that at certain times I would stand aside for to go beyond those turns and off to Barking, East Ham or where ever...
Johnson might have been Mayor when it started in '09, but it was an idea that had been kicking about in some form for at least 90 years before and it was policy behind the scenes to do it as part of the SSL Upgrade before Boris became Mayor in '08.
As for the Circle line being 'previously reliable' - it was notoriously not so. So much so that, when they announced that they would make the permanent change prematurely without having done anything to prepare, the subtext was 'even if this is a disaster, it can't possibly be worse than now'. After a short period with teething troubles, reliability across the SSLs dramatically improved due to the ability to recover much more quickly thanks to finally following the mantra that years of experience had told them: "Continuously Circling Compounds Delays." (to quote TfL's document announcing the change: content.tfl.gov.uk/04-lines-Proposed-Service-Changes.pdf).
So rather than blame Boris for this 'terrible idea', even though it's the cool thing (and there's lots of terrible ideas which we can legitimately blame Boris for), a much more factual thing to do is to not credit him with this successful change.
Hi Jago enjoy your tales 😃. I lived in London for 10 years loved the tube especially Northern line and outer train system! Trains are our future? What do you think of Tesla Elon Musk Boring company? thank you all the best buzz #buzzofftoxic #tiedamew #stopburingstuff
Great video Jago! Maybe a map to accompany this (and for the video on the 'Middle Circle') would be really help with visualising where the routes used to run. 👍🏾
"....and wasn't technically a circle..." Well neither is the Circle line these days.
I think we should bring back the London Ringways Project, but as a series of railways, rather than a series of roads.
The North Circular Road and South Circular Road both have a lot of traffic on them. We could probably plonk an elevated railway directly on top of the North Circular Road, for most of the route, with the actual railway stations being built to reconnect all the communities cut in half by the North Circular Road. (Building a pair of shopping centres either side of the North Circular, with a railway station in between them would give people a through route, that was also a community hub.)
In South London, things would not be quite as easy. But we do have a number of big parks in South London, that the South Circular Road passes. They would be excellent places to drop in Underground stations, as well as a network of cycle routes and walking routes that promote those stations.
A North Circular / South Circular Railway, might not bring in a ton of cash, but it would justify us removing a lane from the North Circular Road and South Circular Road and making the entire route have bi-directional bus lanes. The long term plan, should be to rehabilitate that orbital ring down to a pair of traffic lanes (one in each direction) with the traffic down to levels that pose a much lower health risk on people living next to them.
Broad St could have had a future with services on the WCML as far as Milton Keynes and later as a terminus for the Overground. There was potential for the station from the mid eighties onwards as passengers numbers increased into London, but it was left to die.
No, Broad Street could not, would not and should not have a future. It was left to die because it had only 6,000 passenger journeys per week. The NLL is now at capacity and would not be able to take trains from the WCML.
Marylebone had potential, Broad St no. Passenger numbers into Broad Street were declining. Services were diverted to North Woolwich. It had no direct access to a main line and would have to use the busy North London Line as far as Camden Road to access the West Coast Main Line. The NLL and the ELL extension are great additions to the network. Broad Street was not needed and still would not be. The money from the land sale has turned Liverpool Street into a great station.
I wonder what would win in a royal rumble match between all the circles and Ringways (if it were fully completed)... That would definitely be A LOT OF CIRCLES, but only one true circle; the squared circle!
My route into London in my commuting years was into Liverpool Street (1970s-80s), so I was very familiar with Broad Street which had a frontage that was more impressive than its next door terminus, but sadly suffered a death by a thousand cuts, its platforms being gradually reduced to two and passengers having to walk half a mile along a platform to catch a train, until surprise, surprise, passengers gave-up on it and it became prime redevelopment land; I then wound-up working for one of the numerous city firms that relocated to the new Broadgate development built on it, itself now, ironically, facing redevelopment.
I've always thought that London needed a fast and efficient Outer Circle line, it's never really had one; I suppose the new Crossrail line from Shenfield to Reading via Paddington is supposed to replicate it in some respect, but by the time its eventually built people will have probably given-up commuting altogether.
Yeah especially if Zuckerberg gets his way with his metaverse garbage.
And nowadays the outer circle would be the Clapham Jn - Canada Water - Highbury & Islington - Willesden Jn - Clapham Jn route of the Overground. Except trains arrive and depart CLJ from the same direction, so not really a circle in that sense.
i'm surprised with all them circles you're not dizzy.....ba-dum....dish
great again Jago
And the London Overground Orbital route is slightly similar to the Circle Line. With the North London Line, South London Line, East London Line and West London Line as we know of today. And if Broad Street stations was still around then it would of been the terminus of the London Overground East London Line which was just short walk from London Liverpool Street and Moorgate stations.
The outer circle technically is London overground. Clapham Junction to Clapham Junction via new Cross Camden Wilsden imperial wharf
No, it would not be particularly useful, as it is still more or less there. The big thing that is missing from London’s public transport network is an outer, outer circle line for north London. The Overground (old North London Line or Outer Circle) is much too far in to be the only orbital rail connection for north London. There is a glaring need for rail connecting the outer northern suburbs, an equivalent of the North Circular Road. One solution would be to take space out of the North Circular Road for a tramway: this really would be going back to the future, as I think this was the original intention for that road.
Great stuff very interesting but I would like to suggest you use a map or 2 it makes it much easier to visualise where these lines were and what they became.
'Outer Circle' in Glasgow refers to the clockwise side of the Subway and of ScotRail's Cathcart Circle. The latter isn't a true circle either. It used to be appled to the Fife Circle (also not a circle) but was dropped probably because 'Outer Circle' sounds like it ought to be coast first but actually it's not. Confused? Never mind.
Man I love the Glasgow Subway.
@@JagoHazzard It'll lose a bit of character when the driverless trains come in. Mind you they'll probably be delayed longer than London CrossRail and we may get cold fusion first (or the second coming).
I love your work but I'm often a little confused by the place names ... I can pint out southward, Greenwich, Liverpool street and Euston on a map but since I'm not from London, or even the UK I quickly start to struggle. A map or diagram would be of so much help and make me enjoy your hard work a lot more.
Thanks either way!
interesting, more maps please
Broad street station was not really in that shopping area it was right there on Liverpool Street opposite old broad street . If you watch the Paul McCartney film give my regards to Broad street you see a nice bit of footage. Where McDonald’s is now.
Hello, a map of the circles in the video would be very helpful to have an overview.
Many years ago before the overground, when Olympia was only served occasionally by the district branch line from Earl's Court, there used to be a train to and from Olympia and Clapham Junction, during rush hours. This train was not advertised on the time tables and was used by workers at the Post Office building close to Olympia.
It was not restricted to post office workers so if you were in the know, you could use the service. It was known as the Kenny Belle.
I knew of it, cannot recall if I attempted to make use of it.
I think I remember these trains. Usually a Class 33 with a couple of Mark 1 coaches. Probably the shortest loco hauled service in the UK.
@@ianhelps3749 I occasionally used to see these trains at Clapham Junction in the 1980s and early 90s. Sometimes also they used a Class 73 locomotive (that could be run from the third rail supply and that also had a diesel engine), sometimes they used a Southern Region diesel-electric multiple unit and sometimes they used one of the diesel-mechanical multiple units built in the 1950s and early 60s. When they were loco-hauled they used some of the coaches that had recently been withdrawn from the London-Weymouth line, with a driver's cab at the opposite end to the loco so they could work as push-pull trains. In 1994 the Clapham Junction-Olympia service was extended to Willesden Junction and started to run all day. This service for the first few years used 1950s/60s DMUs that were from a pool that also operated the Gospel Oak to Barking line.
In the 1960s you could go direct to Broad Street for Willesden Junct. We trainspotters used to do Willesden Sheds,then go to Liverpool St via Broad St. Where the railway staff let you spot from a taxi ramp that went right into the station.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Circle_(London)#/media/File%3AThe_Circle_Routes_of_Victorian_London.png
What about the super outer circle? It has my favourite abandoned/unused piece of railway and is the closest long one to london!
There’s already a script for it!
Also im still searching on info for the now gone section between liverpool street and the circle line, just before the metropolitan line platforms (you can kinda see it on google maps)
Also this map www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/broad_street/index164.html
I'm just trying to imagine the SF Bay area WITH any sort of circle. All lines lead to downtown San Francisco- if you want to get Around or Through town your F^$#$%^. Sort of similar in the East Bay [Oakland] where a circle route would be amazing. We also dearly need a second Bay crossing [at only $10 bn if we start building with Today's dollars, it should be an easy sell...]
I remember the last day of Broad Street. It was always my favourite London Terminal. But in its last days it reminded me of a description of an abandoned Roman Temple in Saxon times!
As for "Mr Punch's Railway" aka WLER It wasn't the only line that "upset" said Gentleman!
As following an incident on the Herne Bay Pier tramway. During which a bonnet purchased by the editor of 'PUNCH' for his good lady got crushed! Well for many years "Mr Punch" was wont to recall the incompetence of the staff on the tramway!
But we have an Outer Circle today, of sorts, courtesy of tfl and the London Overground... Going on from Ken Olympia, south to Clapham Junction and then a quick shuftee across plat 2 to 3, jump the next Overground and plod across saarf London via Peckham ending up on way to Stratford.... (In'it) ...
Paul McCartney brought out a film in 1984 called "Give My Regards To Broad Street", which featured a few Beatles and post-Beatles songs of his. One scene was filmed (I believe) at Broad Street station and may be some of the last images of the station to be taken. My big disappointment with the film is that although it featured David Gilmour's guitar solo on "No More Lonely Nights" while McCartney was walking through the station, it didn't show Mr. Gilmour standing in the station concourse with his famous Black Strat.
Instead of the CIRCLE ⭕️ ... perhaps the “Periphery” ... of “Périferique” ... nah, too French. 🤷
The true outer circle is the M25
Mark Lizotte (aka Johnny Diesel/Diesel) does a superb cover of Joni Mitchell's "The Circle Game". It's on his Americana album. However I think it was recorded in Australia and not actually on either the inner, outer or have a banana circle circle lines. Obviously " Oval" station couldn't be on the circle line or they'd have got a nasty visit from UK Trading Standards officers.
Back in 1978 I did pay to join "Ringrail 2000", a pressure group to create an outer London orbital railway; the Overground goes some way to acheive this, though I would have preferred something a bit more complete....
To be fair, The Circle Line has been open at the weekends but that has been my experience. I see the trains alternate between District and Circle line trains.
The Middle Circle: The Other Other Circle Line:
th-cam.com/video/l5oN08kvH30/w-d-xo.html
There could be a route from Clapham junction to Clapham junction overground route but then the part east from H.&I. would have less serivices
A video on the so called Super Outer Circle including the Dudding Hill line beckons. Good map here of all varieties: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dudding_Hill_line#/media/File%3AThe_Circle_Routes_of_Victorian_London.png
You and your circles, getting us all going round in "circles". Interesting history lesson though, even if it did go round in a circle.
If anyone is interested in a visualisation (and a small spoiler, sorry Jago), there's a good wikipedia image of the london circle lines (inner, middle, outer and super outer): en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Circle_(London)#/media/File:The_Circle_Routes_of_Victorian_London.png
Besides Inner and Outer, and Middle....there was also a Super Outer. But speaking of Inner and Outer...those are also directions on the Circle Line, at one time tickets were printed either with an I or an O, or if the trip was long enough, an E (as in "we don't care which direction you take at this point, either one will do")
So many circles… And you haven’t even started on London’s ring road schemes!
I used to work in that building on Queen Victoria Street in 1974.
I agree with the others about a map though.
Another great video thanks.
What is a circle but not a circle and a line but not a line???? 🤔🤔🤔....... A curve.
Ah the North Circular of railway lines. Like many other ambitious London projects it fell apart when someone had to inform the planners that there was a South London too.
I love your videos from Australia. They are very interesting.
Thank you!
Jago doesnt make videos from australia, I am very confused.
This video is crying out for maps - please help us poor folks who don't know exactly where these places are or how close they are to each other. Even a power point would be better
But Dalston juntc is nt t nearest still in use, because they re-energized t old track re-opening some stations there, Hoxton i think, old street, an there might be another.
Give us maps!
I've checked my A-Z map and I can't find either Eighteen Seventy Two or Nineteen O Eight.
Broad Street
Map from Wikipedia: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/The_Circle_Routes_of_Victorian_London.png
Interesting video Jago .
I look forward to learning about the Middle Circle !
Of course the "inner" circle was never a circle anyway, more of a dumpy milk bottle! TfL with the Orbital parts of the Overground have created an outer circle, indeed a much better one than the original as it actually goes south of the river instead of just piggybacking on the District Line
The Chinese naming convention for loop lines is inner/outer vs clockwise/counterclockwise.
Didn't Paul McCartney write a musical called Farewell to Broad Street ?
A fast service Circleline could help almost every city. Only stopping at main hubs to speed up the innercity transport.
A watched a video recently about something like that in Paris, going round the outskirts since the 19th century. There are circular bus routes in some cities, but those tend to be VERY slow.
@@faithlesshound5621 trams without separate tracks have the same problem. I work in Amsterdam, had to go to a certain place. First time I got there right from home, took me an hour to reach work afterwards, 2 changeovers (tram, tram, bus), second time I took a company car... 17 minutes.
Map en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Circle_(London)#/media/File%3AThe_Circle_Routes_of_Victorian_London.png
Love you videos. Normally a Sunday morning staple for me.
The North London and West London Lines (and some of the former connections and extensions) are a wonderful illustration of how the needs and wants of London traffic have varied - sometimes in very short order. Who in the 1980s would have seen the created need for the passenger service that Overground has become? The freight from the docks through Dalston had already gone by the 1980s but the freight that used the West London Line extensively in the 1980s and 90s has become second fiddle to the passenger traffic. There are dreams of the 1860s that would be really useful connections now. Marylebone was luckier than Broad St - they were both in the firing line during one of the darkest periods of London's passenger railways. Any freight originating in London had long gone and anything inbound came (and still does come) by road.
Marylebone survived because Baker St and Paddington reached capacity. Also Marylebone had direct access to a Main Line, something that Broad Street lacked. keeping Broad Street for London Overground services would make absolutely no sense. 86xing Broad Street was the correct thing to do.
Another great vid and congrats on almost 15,000 subscribers. :D I'm new too, one of your tube videos suddenly popped up while I was watching Cities Skylines stuff, though I follow Geoff Marshall as well. I love the snack sized vids. Really informative and well presented. Would be great to see you do something on the London trams (ie. Kingsway)
In the late1970s we tested Class 313 EMUs from Broad St to Willesden Jn with the idea of running services from Liverpool St around the North London Line. Did that ever happen?
I seem to recall it did, certainly around 2000 when I was commuting on that line.
Another quality video thank you
As long as there are not, in fact, nine circles... 🤔👺👺👺
Another ring to rule them all that finally didn't.
I few errors in this video and could have added info to make it better.
There is only a short stump of the old north london line viaduct that approached broad street left, most of it is demolished and the land built upon with various office blocks
Shoreditch high street is about the closest they could get to the city with trains, but its not in too bad a position