I’m so glad I’ve found your TH-cam your insights are very much on the same level as mine I’m just stunned at how similar our ideas are. Thanks so much for your thoughts and discussions. I agree with you on this topic the devil is a multifaceted being so rooted in the folklore and history or magic and witchcraft it’s difficult to distance witchcraft as a practice of this being that gives so much to the Craft in terms of mythology, mystery and identity. I like your position on polytheism as well, the interconnectedness and unity of things doesn’t remove their individual nature. Keep doing what your doing it’s an inspiration.
Thank you for this video, it really helped me!! Me being a witch as well I get a lot negative feedback from other people. By being a witch an working with the devil.. At the beginning of my journey I was still very ignorant about who the devil was and so things we're not going that great.. For I was excited but fearful at the same time. And no God or Goddess would like to be treated that way.. Now that I'm maturing in my craft.. I feel that the next step is present my self to him with full respect and honesty for something about him always spreaked to me.. I'm so glad you post this video today I was really needing some clarity, wish you all the best and many blessings for you 🍀✨
Always love hearing your thoughts, ideas, and beliefs Kelden. It always puzzles me when minority groups discriminate and dictate beliefs to others. The diversity is what makes it all so special!
I don't personally refer to him as a "devil." It is pretty inflammatory -especially if you live in the bible belt. Everything we do is demonized (in the very negative sense of the word.) I do love "Witch Father/Witch Mother. For some Christians, all of our "spirits" are demonic. I think the reason some witches are triggered by it has to do with the very difficult task of creating a positive spin on the public image. Using the terminology "Devil" works to destroy that in the minds of many people. It doesn't matter if we mean the folkloric devil or not--it is the devil in their minds and that figure is who they believe are worshipping. On the other side of that coin, we could very well say: Yes, I follow the devil (because the people asking the question already believe that.)
I guess I can see both sides. I think if we are tapping into a deity that is embedded in human conciousness as a lying and abominable being, we must in a way be prepared to tap into those aspects also. For I think deity archetypes get their power from conscious beliefs and subconscious ones too. But then on the same coin, tapping into a primordial deity like say Gaia could bring forth the same chaos that the "Devil" could, because we are dealing with primitive energy of creation which is 50% destruction. Gaia sees no difference in the busting of bones versus the crack and fall of her trees. Really I think evil is just us acting inhuman. When you strip away the thing that makes us human, we are the most gruesome animal in nature. So it can be somewhat helpful to work with deity in this way to relate to having impulses and urges that makes us less human. Like shadow work, you work with the shadow to define it and to try and integrate not to bind to it or become it. Working with the Devil I am sure could be looked at it from the same way :) Awesome video!! Thanks for making Kelden. Will definitely watch some more.
Now I see it from the opposite perspective. Evil, chaotic or not, is inherently a human trait, through and through. There is no humanity without the construct of good and evil, nature in it's rawest form can be destructive, even disgusting, but evil and malice does not exist where life and death reign natural and instinctual. Thus deities like the devil are merely another interpretation of that balance of life and humanity we all face. Some see the devil as evil and that's what they need to balance the good in them. Others may see the devil as the positive, freeing attributes that allow them to feel what comes naturally to them, so in turn something rigid and structured like Jesus or God could be the evil and cruelty to humanity. Evil is not 'nature.' Evil has intent, evil is calculating even in the chaos it renders, evil is purely human and does not exist outside of us in the same measure. Thus if the devil is evil it's entirely on us for making him so. But like any being who questions and explores, that is only one aspect of his identity. O3o (Not really a disproving comment, just a small perspective from the other side of the aforementioned coin :) )
I'm reminded of a Pagan comic called "Billy the Kid." It was about a household of Wiccans who managed to have a satyr as a roommate who was bisexual. When the gay witch and Billy went to a Pagan campout, the gay men there freaked at Billy's appearance (his horns) and called on Scott Cunningham to protect them as they ran away in terror. Your ill-treatment could be a fluff-bunny response or an attempt to change your beliefs because many Pagans and Witches don't want to be associated with the Christian Archfiend. Bearing in mind the crimes which have been done to the community, I'm not surprised. On the other hand, Traditional Witchcraft claims to be very old, close to nature and therefore, deity is seen as monistic (possessing both good and evil). For example, it's good for me to eat a chicken, but evil for the chicken. Try as you might, you can't go up to nature and pet it on the nose--you might end up being a statistic. What many Judeo-Christians don't realize, Yahweh was capable of both blessings and cursings to such an extent, it became necessary (and handy) for them to create the devil to load all the evil happenings on him. You have to right sort things out as you see fit. If you encounter narrow-minded people, just go somewhere else. Really, they're not worth bothering about. Loved your book, by the way.
I was also just discussing my opinion of what the "devil" is with a friend this morning, so loving the synchronicity of this. I also may discuss this in a video in the future. Nah you did great in this video! Love it!
Hi Kelden! When u said that when u started witchcraft you didnt work with any male deities and that none of them felt right that REALLY resonated with me! I have always been drawn to the folklore of the Devil and his association within witchcraft. None of the male pagan gods feel complete enough for me and I'm just curious if you could lead me to the right information on working with the Devil, or maybe elaborate on how you incorporate Him into your personal practice.
OMG this is exactly how I feel! None of the pagan Gods make me feel complete. I always feel that there is something missing. And when I read about folkloric witchcraft I too am drawn to the devil or the witch father which is what I prefer to call him.
I feel where you're coming from. There are people who discredit the devil but it's not in their paradigm but call themselves witches. They call themselves witches even if they're pagans, shamans or mystics. They don't realize that not all who practice magick are witches. Some can do magick and he can be a sourcerer or a shaman or whatever! Not knowing that in history, the word witch itself is a taboo.
Have you seen Arith's video about the devil in witchcraft? I was particularly fascinated by the character of Endovel as a template for the devil. th-cam.com/video/pZpN3d_oAgw/w-d-xo.html
I have heared many time, by people that i call paranoid white-light witches: ''traditional witches just wanna be special, traditional witchcraft don't exist, it exist just Wicca, and wicca is the traditional witchcraft'', (this is so arrogant and dogmatic, urgh). It have some things that connect wicca (original wicca, not modern wicca after 2000) with traditional witchcraft, but there are far more differences, and the relevence of the 'Devil' point is xactly one good point that makes the difference very clear.
Sorry don't have any room in my practice for the "devil", as it's a Xtian concept that I don't follow. If you want to use that concept that's your choice, and who am I or others to judge. Do your own thing and live and let live.
Question: If your Devil isn't Satan, how so? Is there a culture that contains or created "the Devil" somehow without Christianity? According to 1) most occultists 2) non-occultists and 3) the dictionary, Satan is the devil. We can appreciate the effort to transform Him into some type of universal horned pan-European land spirit or something, but fundamentally there is no concept of "the Devil" without, or outside of, Christianity. How is recreating Him as the leader of the Wild Hunt or Green Man or whatever *not* just a different type of modern revisionism similar to how Wiccans whitewashed Pan? Alternatively, I get confused by the wrangling in of "folklore" but not really. I mean, are you molesting children? Mutilating animals? Are you helping Beyonce & Kanye (or whomever) take over the world? That's the folklore we were raised with about the Devil, but I never see it referenced. Are we cherry picking the folklore we *like* in an eclectic manner, or using what we were organically raised with? #SoManyQuestions
Greetings and blessings to all. I must say you touched on a level of culture that has been lied about through fear and manipulation regarding witchcraft. Traditional witchcraft is not defined by it's lore pantheon or patrons. For example a tradition I have and hold dear to me is stringing up popcorn and Cheerios for the celebration of the solstice I don't think I acknowledge it's significance to me at the time but a cheerio could be seen as an Evil eye and by piercing it with a needle (the Stregheria horn) I was removing harm from my life and placing it on a tree was putting all of those "eyes" on thousands of needles. It is a powerful thing and organic to me. I don't know how far back Cheerios as a brand or tradition of decorating with them goes however I can say that my mother and her mother practiced this and though they may not have used this in anything witch pagan or occult related ways the tree had historical and magical significance to my ancestors. It goes without saying decorating a tree would also have had significance. A tradition can be as old as the pantheon or as new as last year. It's more about finding what works for us and using that in craft otherwise it would be stagnant and tradition is only relevant to the covens, tribes, families, circles, friends, clans, cults, groves, congregants, scholars, beings that practice each one. Importance of them is only given by the practitioner so we could make just about anything part of our traditions and incorporate it into craft. My personal view is that we make our own traditions we make our own pantheon our patrons might find us but we also choose them as well as how they relate to us. In this I will say we all choose our own goddesses/gods like wise we choose our devils. A deity is not a devil until we acknowledge it as such or it identified it's self as such. Devil as a cultural and religious title denotes fear hate ignorance aggression death intolerance harm protection danger vengeance rebellion chaos deception violence hunger dishonor strife illness pain destruction anger greed impurity panic rage and a fall from "grace" or pantheon and patrons are not a title a devil or God is a title based upon how that deity relates to us. Someone who is hit by lightning might see Zeus as a devil however if some feels love from his presence and is helped then he is a god. Our world is an illusion made by a construct of perceived reality. If you go to a deity with any of the above cultural or religious baggage you will experience a devil. My views of Yahweh as the Bible paints in my mind an image of a monster. That to me is not Yahweh though as that is the word of man not god. It is said that it is "inspired by God". If so it is inspired by fear of God (a contradiction in terms) inspiration does not come from fear if it does it is misunderstood as inspiration and is truly in the opposition of fear. This to me is a devil. When we connect to our higher self and reach gnosis fear is removed and the titles or constructs of devil god demon angel fall away because we must lift our selves beyond that state of feeling a separation from ourselves and nature be it good or evil, light or dark, creation or destruction. Someone who steps on a pine cone and injures themselves could say (jokingly or not) that the devil is in the trees and is placing pinecones under our feet and a fanatic will hear that and believe it and raise their children to believe it and soon we have a tradition of people who hate and fear trees and the demonic pinecones! To be a witch to me is to embrace both aspects of God, self, and nature. To be In balance oneness and harmony with all forms of our reality. I can not agree with your view of witchcraft in this respect as it would remove harmony and we would fall from grace not the deity (though we may perceive it that way). The devil is in the details.
Christians demonize so many of our deities. Its hard for even some Pagans to see past the connotations of the devil being anything but evil. He was a fallen angel. The Christian god didn't like him (Satan) so he's evil. He didn't like Lilith so she's evil. LOL lets dance and fuck! I'd go with the devil too. I LOVE THIS VIDEO! It all makes total sense and I feel exactly the same.
"I was not always so cold Once upon a time in times of old I lived a god amongst the folds a true poetic savior Then my people were dissolved by the flames of righteous strangers My name blackened 10,000 fold death came to know me as The Abhorrent" Dani Filth
The moment somebody told me what God I worked with which I work with none I would not need to be kicked out of that group if they were running it I would be with the replies I would make which due to health failed the language would be I'm not going to repeat some of the replies I have already made people but you need to drop those turds
Awesome video Kelden. No one in this day and age should feel the least bit reticent about describing his experiential reality when doing worship or magical working. And you are right the Old One can be manifest in different ways; that is part of His innate nature as a Daimonic being, as described at great length in Patrick Harpur's classic book Daimonic Reality, which I highly recommend to you. It also seems to me that your description of the Gods corresponds well with the thought of the later Neoplatonists such as Proclus and Iamblicus, who considered the many Gods to have independent existence which they in turn received from sharing in the Ground of Being the great Unknown One, like emanations but more than that from the One. Finally there are Fascists today in many shapes and sizes on all sides of religious and political debates today. You are well rid of that group. People spend too much time on Facebook anyway! Blessings!
I’m so glad I’ve found your TH-cam your insights are very much on the same level as mine I’m just stunned at how similar our ideas are. Thanks so much for your thoughts and discussions. I agree with you on this topic the devil is a multifaceted being so rooted in the folklore and history or magic and witchcraft it’s difficult to distance witchcraft as a practice of this being that gives so much to the Craft in terms of mythology, mystery and identity. I like your position on polytheism as well, the interconnectedness and unity of things doesn’t remove their individual nature. Keep doing what your doing it’s an inspiration.
GASP, the Devil!? I’m calling the witch police, balancing my chakras, and smudging this video with premium, high-quality sage as we speak! 😂
I'd try the Dragon's Blood if I were you. The sage won't cut it :D
The Cosmic Dance 🤣 Yes!
Sorceress Ultimecia 😂🤣💜
Thank you for this video, it really helped me!! Me being a witch as well I get a lot negative feedback from other people. By being a witch an working with the devil.. At the beginning of my journey I was still very ignorant about who the devil was and so things we're not going that great.. For I was excited but fearful at the same time. And no God or Goddess would like to be treated that way.. Now that I'm maturing in my craft.. I feel that the next step is present my self to him with full respect and honesty for something about him always spreaked to me.. I'm so glad you post this video today I was really needing some clarity, wish you all the best and many blessings for you 🍀✨
Kelden, you are my man... kudos from Greece ❤️
Always love hearing your thoughts, ideas, and beliefs Kelden. It always puzzles me when minority groups discriminate and dictate beliefs to others. The diversity is what makes it all so special!
I don't personally refer to him as a "devil." It is pretty inflammatory -especially if you live in the bible belt. Everything we do is demonized (in the very negative sense of the word.) I do love "Witch Father/Witch Mother. For some Christians, all of our "spirits" are demonic. I think the reason some witches are triggered by it has to do with the very difficult task of creating a positive spin on the public image. Using the terminology "Devil" works to destroy that in the minds of many people. It doesn't matter if we mean the folkloric devil or not--it is the devil in their minds and that figure is who they believe are worshipping. On the other side of that coin, we could very well say: Yes, I follow the devil (because the people asking the question already believe that.)
Thank you
Closed-minded witches absolutely set my head spinning. 🙄😔
💜 love the content
I guess I can see both sides. I think if we are tapping into a deity that is embedded in human conciousness as a lying and abominable being, we must in a way be prepared to tap into those aspects also. For I think deity archetypes get their power from conscious beliefs and subconscious ones too.
But then on the same coin, tapping into a primordial deity like say Gaia could bring forth the same chaos that the "Devil" could, because we are dealing with primitive energy of creation which is 50% destruction. Gaia sees no difference in the busting of bones versus the crack and fall of her trees.
Really I think evil is just us acting inhuman. When you strip away the thing that makes us human, we are the most gruesome animal in nature. So it can be somewhat helpful to work with deity in this way to relate to having impulses and urges that makes us less human.
Like shadow work, you work with the shadow to define it and to try and integrate not to bind to it or become it.
Working with the Devil I am sure could be looked at it from the same way :)
Awesome video!! Thanks for making Kelden. Will definitely watch some more.
Now I see it from the opposite perspective. Evil, chaotic or not, is inherently a human trait, through and through. There is no humanity without the construct of good and evil, nature in it's rawest form can be destructive, even disgusting, but evil and malice does not exist where life and death reign natural and instinctual. Thus deities like the devil are merely another interpretation of that balance of life and humanity we all face.
Some see the devil as evil and that's what they need to balance the good in them. Others may see the devil as the positive, freeing attributes that allow them to feel what comes naturally to them, so in turn something rigid and structured like Jesus or God could be the evil and cruelty to humanity.
Evil is not 'nature.' Evil has intent, evil is calculating even in the chaos it renders, evil is purely human and does not exist outside of us in the same measure. Thus if the devil is evil it's entirely on us for making him so. But like any being who questions and explores, that is only one aspect of his identity. O3o
(Not really a disproving comment, just a small perspective from the other side of the aforementioned coin :) )
I'm reminded of a Pagan comic called "Billy the Kid." It was about a household of Wiccans who managed to have a satyr as a roommate who was bisexual. When the gay witch and Billy went to a Pagan campout, the gay men there freaked at Billy's appearance (his horns) and called on Scott Cunningham to protect them as they ran away in terror. Your ill-treatment could be a fluff-bunny response or an attempt to change your beliefs because many Pagans and Witches don't want to be associated with the Christian Archfiend. Bearing in mind the crimes which have been done to the community, I'm not surprised. On the other hand, Traditional Witchcraft claims to be very old, close to nature and therefore, deity is seen as monistic (possessing both good and evil). For example, it's good for me to eat a chicken, but evil for the chicken. Try as you might, you can't go up to nature and pet it on the nose--you might end up being a statistic. What many Judeo-Christians don't realize, Yahweh was capable of both blessings and cursings to such an extent, it became necessary (and handy) for them to create the devil to load all the evil happenings on him.
You have to right sort things out as you see fit. If you encounter narrow-minded people, just go somewhere else. Really, they're not worth bothering about. Loved your book, by the way.
I actually feel a pull towards the folkloric devil I’ve been feeling that lately as far as the Devil goes
We are all one! I really appreciate you!
Nice to hear honest talk about the witches devil.
Thank you for explaining
I was also just discussing my opinion of what the "devil" is with a friend this morning, so loving the synchronicity of this. I also may discuss this in a video in the future. Nah you did great in this video! Love it!
Would that be Martha Boltares?
Hi Kelden! When u said that when u started witchcraft you didnt work with any male deities and that none of them felt right that REALLY resonated with me! I have always been drawn to the folklore of the Devil and his association within witchcraft. None of the male pagan gods feel complete enough for me and I'm just curious if you could lead me to the right information on working with the Devil, or maybe elaborate on how you incorporate Him into your personal practice.
OMG this is exactly how I feel! None of the pagan Gods make me feel complete. I always feel that there is something missing. And when I read about folkloric witchcraft I too am drawn to the devil or the witch father which is what I prefer to call him.
Just bought your book, The crooked path. The devil made me do it lol seriously tho, it’s a great piece of literature
I feel where you're coming from. There are people who discredit the devil but it's not in their paradigm but call themselves witches. They call themselves witches even if they're pagans, shamans or mystics. They don't realize that not all who practice magick are witches. Some can do magick and he can be a sourcerer or a shaman or whatever! Not knowing that in history, the word witch itself is a taboo.
Have you seen Arith's video about the devil in witchcraft? I was particularly fascinated by the character of Endovel as a template for the devil.
th-cam.com/video/pZpN3d_oAgw/w-d-xo.html
I have heared many time, by people that i call paranoid white-light witches: ''traditional witches just wanna be special, traditional witchcraft don't exist, it exist just Wicca, and wicca is the traditional witchcraft'', (this is so arrogant and dogmatic, urgh).
It have some things that connect wicca (original wicca, not modern wicca after 2000) with traditional witchcraft, but there are far more differences, and the relevence of the 'Devil' point is xactly one good point that makes the difference very clear.
So almost like the Devil is a mask saint?
Sorry don't have any room in my practice for the "devil", as it's a Xtian concept that I don't follow. If you want to use that concept that's your choice, and who am I or others to judge. Do your own thing and live and let live.
Question: If your Devil isn't Satan, how so? Is there a culture that contains or created "the Devil" somehow without Christianity? According to 1) most occultists 2) non-occultists and 3) the dictionary, Satan is the devil. We can appreciate the effort to transform Him into some type of universal horned pan-European land spirit or something, but fundamentally there is no concept of "the Devil" without, or outside of, Christianity. How is recreating Him as the leader of the Wild Hunt or Green Man or whatever *not* just a different type of modern revisionism similar to how Wiccans whitewashed Pan?
Alternatively, I get confused by the wrangling in of "folklore" but not really. I mean, are you molesting children? Mutilating animals? Are you helping Beyonce & Kanye (or whomever) take over the world? That's the folklore we were raised with about the Devil, but I never see it referenced. Are we cherry picking the folklore we *like* in an eclectic manner, or using what we were organically raised with? #SoManyQuestions
Greetings and blessings to all. I must say you touched on a level of culture that has been lied about through fear and manipulation regarding witchcraft. Traditional witchcraft is not defined by it's lore pantheon or patrons. For example a tradition I have and hold dear to me is stringing up popcorn and Cheerios for the celebration of the solstice I don't think I acknowledge it's significance to me at the time but a cheerio could be seen as an Evil eye and by piercing it with a needle (the Stregheria horn) I was removing harm from my life and placing it on a tree was putting all of those "eyes" on thousands of needles. It is a powerful thing and organic to me. I don't know how far back Cheerios as a brand or tradition of decorating with them goes however I can say that my mother and her mother practiced this and though they may not have used this in anything witch pagan or occult related ways the tree had historical and magical significance to my ancestors. It goes without saying decorating a tree would also have had significance. A tradition can be as old as the pantheon or as new as last year. It's more about finding what works for us and using that in craft otherwise it would be stagnant and tradition is only relevant to the covens, tribes, families, circles, friends, clans, cults, groves, congregants, scholars, beings that practice each one. Importance of them is only given by the practitioner so we could make just about anything part of our traditions and incorporate it into craft. My personal view is that we make our own traditions we make our own pantheon our patrons might find us but we also choose them as well as how they relate to us. In this I will say we all choose our own goddesses/gods like wise we choose our devils. A deity is not a devil until we acknowledge it as such or it identified it's self as such. Devil as a cultural and religious title denotes fear hate ignorance aggression death intolerance harm protection danger vengeance rebellion chaos deception violence hunger dishonor strife illness pain destruction anger greed impurity panic rage and a fall from "grace" or pantheon and patrons are not a title a devil or God is a title based upon how that deity relates to us. Someone who is hit by lightning might see Zeus as a devil however if some feels love from his presence and is helped then he is a god. Our world is an illusion made by a construct of perceived reality. If you go to a deity with any of the above cultural or religious baggage you will experience a devil. My views of Yahweh as the Bible paints in my mind an image of a monster. That to me is not Yahweh though as that is the word of man not god. It is said that it is "inspired by God". If so it is inspired by fear of God (a contradiction in terms) inspiration does not come from fear if it does it is misunderstood as inspiration and is truly in the opposition of fear. This to me is a devil. When we connect to our higher self and reach gnosis fear is removed and the titles or constructs of devil god demon angel fall away because we must lift our selves beyond that state of feeling a separation from ourselves and nature be it good or evil, light or dark, creation or destruction. Someone who steps on a pine cone and injures themselves could say (jokingly or not) that the devil is in the trees and is placing pinecones under our feet and a fanatic will hear that and believe it and raise their children to believe it and soon we have a tradition of people who hate and fear trees and the demonic pinecones! To be a witch to me is to embrace both aspects of God, self, and nature. To be In balance oneness and harmony with all forms of our reality. I can not agree with your view of witchcraft in this respect as it would remove harmony and we would fall from grace not the deity (though we may perceive it that way). The devil is in the details.
Christians demonize so many of our deities. Its hard for even some Pagans to see past the connotations of the devil being anything but evil. He was a fallen angel. The Christian god didn't like him (Satan) so he's evil. He didn't like Lilith so she's evil. LOL lets dance and fuck! I'd go with the devil too. I LOVE THIS VIDEO! It all makes total sense and I feel exactly the same.
"I was not always so cold
Once upon a time
in times of old
I lived a god amongst the folds
a true poetic savior
Then my people were dissolved
by the flames of righteous strangers
My name blackened 10,000 fold
death came to know me as
The Abhorrent"
Dani Filth
The moment somebody told me what God I worked with which I work with none I would not need to be kicked out of that group if they were running it I would be with the replies I would make which due to health failed the language would be I'm not going to repeat some of the replies I have already made people but you need to drop those turds
Awesome video Kelden. No one in this day and age should feel the least bit reticent about describing his experiential reality when doing worship or magical working. And you are right the Old One can be manifest in different ways; that is part of His innate nature as a Daimonic being, as described at great length in Patrick Harpur's classic book Daimonic Reality, which I highly recommend to you.
It also seems to me that your description of the Gods corresponds well with the thought of the later Neoplatonists such as Proclus and Iamblicus, who considered the many Gods to have independent existence which they in turn received from sharing in the Ground of Being the great Unknown One, like emanations but more than that from the One.
Finally there are Fascists today in many shapes and sizes on all sides of religious and political debates today. You are well rid of that group. People spend too much time on Facebook anyway!
Blessings!