what Ricky has always said sharpen your way and if you get the results you need then that is fantastic I am very slow at sharpening but I get good results thanks to Rickys insight to the many ways of sharpening . Regards Dean from Oz
Not if you work in a processing plant. You can’t sharpen your knife then your getting a sore wrists. So it wise to follow basic steps. Then venture on your own. 13 years experience sharpening knifes daily.
The thing with microbevel is not the edge retention rate, but the stability , you are less likely to damage your knife while cutting something hard or by roughhandling it a bit.
Another great video! I always appreciate your take on take on things. The scenario in which I think a micro bevel is useful though, is in maintaining your edge especially if you are not very skilled at sharpening yet. I used to have my knives sharpened professionally to a very acute ange, maybe 13 degrees per side, and maintain them with a spyderco sharpmaker set at 15 degrees per side until the knife wouldn't take an edge I was satisfied with and then start over. I would say my results were just slightly inferior to what I get now being a pretty compitent sharpener with a wide range of stones.
As with anything, they have a purpose. It depends on the application. 30* total is sharper than 60* total. If you are slicing sushi don't do a 60 micro. If you are cutting rope, and don't want to have to stop and sharpen a lot, find the bevel that is sharp enough to cut yet hold its edge. And then the grade of knife plays into the factor also. If you have some german steel that goes dull in one meal, or several times in one meal and you are spending more time on the rod then on the food, sacrifice a little sharpness for durability. It doesn't have to be a micro bevel, you can just sharpen it to 20 a side. Or 25 if need be. It will still cut and stay sharp longer. It just wont cut as nice. Whereas if you get a really highend expensive steel, you can go 12 to 15 a side and it will handle it and cut like butter. It just depends on what you are using the knife for and what grade of steel you have. Also the 2ndary or main bevel will play a role in how a knife performs also. Simple rules in knife sharpening. Thinner is sharper and cuts the best but will dull easier. Thicker will be more durable but nut cut as well, but well enough. Personal preference and experimentation will get your knives where you want them. Micro bevels do work for making a knife more durable.
The one place a micro bevel works great is for boning beef meat processing plants. I've used single and micro beveled knives, and the resistance of the shoulder in a single bevel when moving against bone causes enough friction to increase RSI/Carpal Tunnel Syndrome development. Add a second shoulder with the micro bevel and you're reducing the corners that 'catch' in the bone. You can also feel it. A good micro bevel will feel like it's oiled as it works, the single will have a definite dragging feeling by comparison. This is where I feel a proper convex edge would be superior. I'm going to buy a convex rod for my KME and sharpen a few knives for the experienced boners at work to see how they find them.
Thanks for addressing this topic. I do a fair bit of sharpening and have only used microbevels a handful of times. Much like your testing, I just don’t see an appreciable difference in performance. In my mind, why bother then? I guess I could see using them as an attempt to minimize a chipping issue. Aside from that, I’m fine with my edges just the way they are. I don’t dread sharpening or feel the need to worry about getting a dozen more cuts before having to get the edge back in shape. I prefer to keep things simple. Also, thank you for calling out those who like to “edge shame” anyone who doesn’t sharpen the way they chose to. It’s one of the things I love about your channel. It really turns people off for getting into sharpening if it seems overly complicated and rule-driven when they’re just starting out. I honestly think people on the forums just invent ways to create an apparent gap between themselves and others. Group think can be pretty frustrating.
Personally I only use them on knives outside of the kitchen. And the only reason I have them on those is it makes sharpening take a lot less time. Rather than grinding an entire layer off the main bevel, I just have to take a tiny bit off at the very edge and it's back to where it was
I use 10 degree sharpening and then put a 15 degree microbevel on it. Knives with 55-60 HRC that would easily roll the edge at 10 degree can hold this acute egde if I put a microbevel on it. There is a big difference in performance while cutting vegetables and I really like the result.
I sharpen knives with hardness around 55-60 HRC. They can't hold an edge with 10 degrees sharpening but if I add a 15 degree microbevel on it it will hold the edge and have higher cutting capacity than standard 15 degree sharpening.
After you sharpen your knife, are you happy with how it cuts? If not, try changing something until you are. Once you've got a knife you're happy with, you did it right. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. :)
Micro bevels are useful in different types of edged tools. You sharpen culinary knives exclusively. Micro bevels can be useful on a few culinary tools that see hard use-mostly for meat processing: cleavers, large butcher knives that are used in commercial environments. For slicing, paring, pealing, as well as other kitchen uses micro bevels are counter productive. When we get into other types of knives and edged tools, like those used for landscaping, agriculture, wood processing, military use and outdoors activities, a micro bevel can be a useful way to expedite field sharpening and avoid damaging certain blades not used for fine work. Good video, you make a great point.
The big advantage of micro bevels is that the blade is less prone to chipping. Usefulness depends on the usage and environment. Lots of contact with bone or outdoors, the bigger angle is your friend. If there is chipping, it will only chip as far as the microbevel before the thickness of the blade shields the rest. If a big chip needs fixing, you'd wish for that micro bevel.
on industrial blades is always a microbevel. ALWAYS. there is no steel that could manage a single bevel on a wide and thin cookingknife from the spine to the edge...you always need a little angleincrease or a microbevel.
Hey @Burrfection I think a cool video to see would be comparing the polish each grit range gives you on a blade. So like 10 different grits from 320 to 10k or beyond. To really get a good idea of each it would probably be best to do it on ten of the same knife. And if you wanted to give me one you used that would be cool. Jkjkjkjk. Seriously tho it might help if someone was looking for an exact level of polish on their blade to have something to compare to.
The advantage of micro bevels, and the sole reason they are used by people, is the sharpening time. When you use a multi stone sharpening set up, essentially you are polishing the entire bevel of your knife. That can take an extended amount of time, and is more expensive the more your experience grows and requires higher quality stones. Micro bevels allow the primary bevel to be sharped to a much coarser finish, the final step to creating a sharp edge on a knife with this process is a few passes on a high grit waterstone or ceramic rod at a higher angle, creating a microbevel. As you are polishing a much smaller area, it’s really simple to polish a knife this way. After some use, you can just skip the maintenance procedures and reset the micro bevel in a matter of seconds. Very efficient, quick, and it produces great results every time. However, since a coarser scratch pattern produces more aggressiveness in a knife, it may not be as suitable for some kitchen knives, as clean cuts are very important in certain culinary situations. Still, not that much people will notice any difference in performance. Essentially, they are optimal for cheaper knives that you don’t want take your time to sharpen.
Ricki, I don't know how well you can sharpen convex by hand yet, but i'd like to see if convex edges (finished at the same angle of apex) compare favourably or not to flat ground edges.
I use microbevel on my Knifes with angle of 10º on the Edge, and a microbevel of 20º, why i use this, cause the cut power will be the same of a 20º Edge, but to resharp the microbevel will be 100times quicklyer than sharpening a V edge, with 3-6 strokes on King 1200 i can resharpen it and 5 pushs on the strop i will Polish it, thats the advantage of using a microbevel, it turns easy the maintence of the Edge, and the maintance will be even easier with a sharpmaker with the Fine and Extra Fine rods
Boxcutters as far as I know all come with microbevel out of the box, because of the material it's cutting(cardboard, one of the most abrasive material in daily use), thin grind, acute edge angle and low Rc. They did microbevel cause it's the cheapest solution available trying to prolong the edge retention. As a result, even a brand new boxcutter is never a good cutter against thin material like paper because the actual edge that's doing the cutting is the barely visible microbevel that is more obtuse and coarser. You can always feel and see the drag with a boxcutter cutting paper that shouldn't be happening on such a thin blade and basic carbon steel.
Great video. If you plan to remake I'd be interested to see softer steels since most people including me have those. Probably KS is not the average knife :) Seeing the graphs and data was very exciting for me.
I enjoy the process of sharpening my knives, so I tend to add a single edge micro bevel. However, I've not really been able to tell the difference between when I do and when I don't. (At least not in practical application scenarios) I enjoy doing it so I do it, but the extremely marginal performance benefit won't generally be worth it for people with less time to sharpen, or people who would rather have a simpler sharpening process.
I have set just one micro-bevel. I did it on both sides, and it has worked very well. I do not do it more often since I have not found it necessary to achieve a very sharp edge with the right tools and technique. However, an EDC m390 steel has given me fits. I can get it sharp, but never enough. (I know this is relative). This is very difficult steel to sharpen, but I have done it before; however, in this knife, it has been such a challenge. The double edged micro-bevel sharpened quite quickly, perhaps because the micro edge is so much less metal to sharpen or maybe due to the additional edge combined angle. Not sure, but it worked well. I have no desire to do this as long as I am successful otherwise.
My spyderco comes with a 30 degree primary bevel and 40 degree micro bevel. If I were to sharpen it, should I maintain this setting or do away with the micro bevel? I'm new to free hand sharpening but I've been using the spyderco sharpmaker which has slots for both 30 degrees and 40 degrees. But my hands a growing itch to try sharpening on the whetstone. Hehe
If you need a 60° edge then sharpen to 60°. I don't see the point in converting a 30° (15 each side) edge to a 60° edge. Fine cutting and hard steel for fine edges and softer steel with less fine edge for cleavers and the likes. Use the correct tool for the job. A tacking hammer can't be used as a sledge hammer. From what understood was the finer the cutting angle the thinner the edge the more delicate the edge and work it can do. The wider the edge the more blunt it will be and therefore good for chopping bones.
The point of the micro bevel is not to make the knife sharper or more durable. The objective is to make the MAINTENANCE easier. You have less material to adjust. Just that.
I had a microbevel on one of my knives a while back, it was useful for preventing edge damage due to the steeper final angle, however I found the extra step in sharpening made it pointless afterwards it’s easier/faster to sharpen the knife with a regular edge. The sharpness difference was negligible
Everyone who says something like "every knife needs a microbevel" clearly has no idea what he is talking about. Even the term "microbevel" itself seems to be misunderstood by many; some people seem to think it's the thin secondary bevel (or edge) you find on most knives, as far as I know it's actually a very small third bevel on the already small secondary itself. Is a third bevel better on a knife? Well that very much depends on the use case, what you expect from a particular knife and the angles of the bevels themselves. Saying that one particular grind is better than another without a specific context in mind is like saying "a kitchen knife is better than an outdoor knife". While that might be true in a cooking related context, it's not when it comes to chopping wood. So yeah, a microbevel has it's usecases, but it's not the "best" edge for every knife. I mean, every cook knows that you don't do every job with the same knife for a reason. Same goes for every other knife.
The confusion probably comes from the primary bevel is the very first grind on a flat piece of steel, most people probably do not count that bevel and count the second bevel or the sharpened part as the primary bevel. That is actually the second bevel and if you put a micro bevel that would be a third. The way you describe it could confuse people into thinking its something different.
Since there are zero grinds wich only have a primary bevel (scandi knives, bushcrafters etc.), of course I'm counting the first grind. But I don't think that's the source of confusion. If you look up "microbevel" you find a lot of drawings that show the cross section of a blade with only two bevels and the blade behind that beeing flat/parallel, claiming the normal cutting edge is a microbevel (propably just because it's smaller than the first grind). Btw a "round edge" is not really that ridiculous; there are a lot of knives (mostly outdoor knives) using a convex edge, because it's very resistant to chipping.
I feel everyone is misunderstanding how the geometry of a cutting edge works. It's quite simple but maybe difficult to explain or visualize, so everyone ends up having these weird theories. It's easier with diagrams but I'll try to explain and just hear me out. First understand the convex edge is the superior edge geometry in all use cases. It is however, not anymore resistant to chipping than a normal edge, never mind that axes use them. Think of any normal knife/edge grind and imagine the cross section. At each "step" where the angle changes there is a shoulder, 2 shoulders for normal "V" grinds. This shoulder causes resistance when cutting and provides no structural integrity since it protrudes out from the rest of the blade. If you were to round off and remove all the excess material from these shoulders, without touching the apex and the area immediately around it, you would be left with an edge equivalent in all capabilities and "sharpness" as the original edge with the added benefit of less cutting resistance. This is the convex edge. You can think of all normal edge grinds as an approximation of this more superior edge grind, where the closer the approximation, the better the grind. Normal grinds are used, only because they are easier to create and easier to be precise with the angles you want. If you understand this, I believe you should be able to easily know when to use a microbevel, when not to and what every type of edge grind does. The most likely cause of confusion, why people think a convex edge is a less sharp, beefier version of a normal edge is because people start with a blade with specific angles and grind down the apex into a larger angled convex apex, thinking this would be the equivalent convex grind of the original but, this is not true. It is not the equivalent convex grind of the original, since the original angles no longer match up. This new convex grind is no longer what the original grind was approximating. To get the correct equivalent convex grind, one must either grind the only the shoulders without touching the apex, or start with a narrower angle and grind down the apex to the desired angle. Because this is tedious, difficult and harder to understand, normal grinds are used but make no mistake, they are slightly inferior. Sorry, this ended up being a bit too long...
Stanley Chang Good points. It's true, a well done convex edge is technically the best possible edge geometry for (almost) all uses(, if done with the correct angles etc. for the intended usecase). And you are right, it technically is not more resistant to chipping; however in outdoor usecases, like chopping or batoning, you want a little broader angled edge to prevent chipping. And in those broader angles, a convex edge can make a noticable difference. A more narrow profile with the same strength as a V grind at the same effective angle. That's why it has the reputation to be more resistant to chipping. I just didn't want to go more into detail on that, because a convex edge wasn't really the point of discussion here.
Interesting, but not shocking. A more acute edge will always be sharper, but one would expect a less acute edge to be substantially more durable. Putting a 60° microbevel on a 30° bevel seems a bit much. I'm thinking a 40° microbevel would not only perform better, but might retain its edge longer.
A bit off topic but I have a JCK Original Kagayaki VG-10 Series. It seems to have different size bevels on each side. Why is this and how should I approach sharpening it? Thank you, love your videos!
this was a very solid video/opinon.......maybe this topic should have been addressed sooner. but at least you tackled the topic and gave a positive answer. enjoy what u have enjoy what u do......
when it comes to knife sharpening there are no rules, you just need to find what works for you and your purpose but i personally will sacrifice edge retention for sharpness every time
Interestingly the microbevel is the basis behind the Spyderco sharpener that I uesd for a number of years (and still do for a few kitchen knives and several folding knives if I just don't feel like getting out the tone). There are two positions available on the block for orienting the rods, one to set the back-bevel (used only infrequently) and one to "sharpen", which is really just the microbevel in these terms. It does work quite well. Learning to use stones work far better and I can't be bothered to set a secondary on stones on knives with good steel.... but like you basically summarized "i can't hurt". Damn right there's no right one way to do any of this. Preach it. :)
I have used micro bevels on wood working tools for axes and other things that undergo heavy shocks, but even there only in hard though woods. And not always with much success.
What a question your asking lol for me I don't bother with micro edges if my knives don't glide through what I'm doing then it's a good reasons not that I need one to get the stones and sharpen a few knives . When are your bridges coming an interesting video cheers
I only micro-bevel on my ZDP and I’m having trouble apexing the blade. (I use Lansky crock sticks) For this the micro-bevel of 5 degrees per side works wonders!
I only use micro bevels on chopping type knives to me it appears to add strength also knives with a high Rockwell hardness I tend to through on a small micro beveles. I do want to say this your vids have made a huge impact on the way I sharpen knives you've just made them a pleasure to learn from ive realy learned allot also you are responsible for my addiction to Japanese kitchen cutlery lol never owned one a day in my life until I bought a Dalstrong and now I own several. So thank you for your video's. When I get the $ together I realy want to purchase a strop or 2 from u.
Thought, if the microbevel on one side retained the edge better, would just sharpening the knife to a 22 degree on each side work the same, no messing with a microbevel.
really got into this because of you but I feel like I shouldn't bother because I got all budget equipment and seems to be all you talk about and all your catering to is people who spent a lot of money.
as the saying goes...sharpening is 10% equipment and 90% technique. expensive stuff will not make you a better sharpener. if you can get good results from the gear that you have, you're already ahead of the pack!
Something is missing, what about 8°~ sharpening and add a microbevel after that. Getting to a lower angle on the bevel might help cutting since it get the blade thinner at the edge, and the micro add a bit of toughness!
I don't think we're all thinking about micro levels in the same way. For a typical FFG, I initially grind at a very acute angle (just lift the flats off the stone enough to comfortably sharpen). When that is approaching the appex, or even beginning a burr, I'll then move up to a smooth stone and lift the spine to the desired finishing angle. So in effect my actual apex edge bevel is a truly small surface area that is easy to polish up and still at around 30 degrees or what ever your desired angle. If I need a tougher field edge I just adjust the angles accordingly, but the apex edge is always a very small surface area at the desired angle. In effect this is the illusive convex edge bevel. All things being equal it is not a stronger edge, but does perform better with limited strength sacrifice.
hi Ricky I it takes me long enough to sharpen my knives slowly and I am happy with the results thanks to your tutorials I don't really know why a microbial is necessary I have listened to many knife sharpeners and they all have strong opinions one way or the other as far as I am concerned as long as you can get your knife sharpened and it stays sharp for a few weeks I don't think there is a need to go further . I have been using the strop you sent me and it has helped me keep the edge on my knives longer between sharpening .A question why did you use the Suehiro debado stones in places the cholera stones . Regards Dean from Oz
just testing more stones. i know i love the chosera stones, and just trying to use more stones, and different grit ranges. the suehiro stones are very different and fun to use
Question, if you need to pick up only 3 stones (and the grit # for each one of them), what should I buy, are they have to be from the same kind? What I mean is can I start with Chosera 800 Grit Stone, move to Chosera 3000 Grit Stone and then finish with other 5000+ Grit manufacture stone. Thank you Guy
Guy Naba I do find that the scratch pattern on your knife is more consistent with the same brand, and those three grits would be a great option. But most important, even if you only use one stone, is to keep your angle consistent over the entire edge.
Question: I have a King KDS 1000/6000 combination stone. Can I soak that stone every day without water logging it to the point of damage or performance loss? Or does it need time to dry out between uses? Is your answer the same for all soaker stones? Thank you for making sharpening accessible to those of us who don’t know anything yet.
@Mark Schonhoff I have this combo stone. In my experience, the 1000 side barely needs any soaking, say 30 seconds. The 6000 side is better used as splash and go. I sharpen my work knives about once per week. Lately, I don't pre-soak the King 1000/6000, only splash of water is needed. Pre-soak makes the stone too soft and easily damaged. I put away the stone to dry on wire rack. It's ready to be used in same condition after 5-6 hours.
I am soaking the 1000 side for 25 minutes and using the 6000 side as a splash and go. I settled on 25 minutes on the 1000 side because the stone seemed to dry out before I could get through a pass if I soaked it for less time. Is that correct reasoning? I think I saw in another video on this channel that it’s best not to stop in the middle of a pass. And splashing the stone during a pass does require me to stop.
Toxic snobbishness is what destroys every hobby-community. Whether it is knife sharpening, coffee brewing or wine tasting, there is always those group of snobs who ruin it for everyone
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"There is no one way to sharpen a knife... don't listen to what everyone else is saying...experience everything for yourself." - Ryky Tran
#truth
what Ricky has always said sharpen your way and if you get the results you need then that is fantastic I am very slow at sharpening but I get good results thanks to Rickys insight to the many ways of sharpening . Regards Dean from Oz
Not if you work in a processing plant. You can’t sharpen your knife then your getting a sore wrists. So it wise to follow basic steps. Then venture on your own. 13 years experience sharpening knifes daily.
The thing with microbevel is not the edge retention rate, but the stability , you are less likely to damage your knife while cutting something hard or by roughhandling it a bit.
Another great video! I always appreciate your take on take on things. The scenario in which I think a micro bevel is useful though, is in maintaining your edge especially if you are not very skilled at sharpening yet. I used to have my knives sharpened professionally to a very acute ange, maybe 13 degrees per side, and maintain them with a spyderco sharpmaker set at 15 degrees per side until the knife wouldn't take an edge I was satisfied with and then start over. I would say my results were just slightly inferior to what I get now being a pretty compitent sharpener with a wide range of stones.
As with anything, they have a purpose. It depends on the application.
30* total is sharper than 60* total.
If you are slicing sushi don't do a 60 micro.
If you are cutting rope, and don't want to have to stop and sharpen a lot, find the bevel
that is sharp enough to cut yet hold its edge.
And then the grade of knife plays into the factor also.
If you have some german steel that goes dull in one meal, or several times in one meal and you are spending more time on the rod then on the food, sacrifice a little sharpness for durability. It doesn't have to be a micro bevel, you can just sharpen it to 20 a side. Or 25 if need be. It will still cut and stay sharp longer. It just wont cut as nice.
Whereas if you get a really highend expensive steel, you can go 12 to 15 a side and it will handle it and cut like butter.
It just depends on what you are using the knife for and what grade of steel you have.
Also the 2ndary or main bevel will play a role in how a knife performs also.
Simple rules in knife sharpening.
Thinner is sharper and cuts the best but will dull easier.
Thicker will be more durable but nut cut as well, but well enough.
Personal preference and experimentation will get your knives
where you want them.
Micro bevels do work for making a knife more durable.
The one place a micro bevel works great is for boning beef meat processing plants. I've used single and micro beveled knives, and the resistance of the shoulder in a single bevel when moving against bone causes enough friction to increase RSI/Carpal Tunnel Syndrome development. Add a second shoulder with the micro bevel and you're reducing the corners that 'catch' in the bone. You can also feel it. A good micro bevel will feel like it's oiled as it works, the single will have a definite dragging feeling by comparison.
This is where I feel a proper convex edge would be superior. I'm going to buy a convex rod for my KME and sharpen a few knives for the experienced boners at work to see how they find them.
Sounds like an interesting experiment. I'm curious about the feedback you received.
Thanks for addressing this topic. I do a fair bit of sharpening and have only used microbevels a handful of times. Much like your testing, I just don’t see an appreciable difference in performance. In my mind, why bother then? I guess I could see using them as an attempt to minimize a chipping issue. Aside from that, I’m fine with my edges just the way they are. I don’t dread sharpening or feel the need to worry about getting a dozen more cuts before having to get the edge back in shape. I prefer to keep things simple. Also, thank you for calling out those who like to “edge shame” anyone who doesn’t sharpen the way they chose to. It’s one of the things I love about your channel. It really turns people off for getting into sharpening if it seems overly complicated and rule-driven when they’re just starting out. I honestly think people on the forums just invent ways to create an apparent gap between themselves and others. Group think can be pretty frustrating.
Personally I only use them on knives outside of the kitchen. And the only reason I have them on those is it makes sharpening take a lot less time.
Rather than grinding an entire layer off the main bevel, I just have to take a tiny bit off at the very edge and it's back to where it was
Cool, I was wondering about this after a site put a microbevel on his chisel.
God bless actual tests.
I use 10 degree sharpening and then put a 15 degree microbevel on it. Knives with 55-60 HRC that would easily roll the edge at 10 degree can hold this acute egde if I put a microbevel on it.
There is a big difference in performance while cutting vegetables and I really like the result.
I do it sometimes, but I actually prefer a single V bevel done well.
The more micro bevels you add the closer to a butter knife you get, after all, a circle is just a series of corners placed really close together.
I sharpen knives with hardness around 55-60 HRC. They can't hold an edge with 10 degrees sharpening but if I add a 15 degree microbevel on it it will hold the edge and have higher cutting capacity than standard 15 degree sharpening.
After you sharpen your knife, are you happy with how it cuts? If not, try changing something until you are.
Once you've got a knife you're happy with, you did it right. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. :)
Micro bevels are useful in different types of edged tools. You sharpen culinary knives exclusively. Micro bevels can be useful on a few culinary tools that see hard use-mostly for meat processing: cleavers, large butcher knives that are used in commercial environments. For slicing, paring, pealing, as well as other kitchen uses micro bevels are counter productive. When we get into other types of knives and edged tools, like those used for landscaping, agriculture, wood processing, military use and outdoors activities, a micro bevel can be a useful way to expedite field sharpening and avoid damaging certain blades not used for fine work. Good video, you make a great point.
This is how it should be done. Short quick graphs data makes me so happy.
The big advantage of micro bevels is that the blade is less prone to chipping. Usefulness depends on the usage and environment. Lots of contact with bone or outdoors, the bigger angle is your friend. If there is chipping, it will only chip as far as the microbevel before the thickness of the blade shields the rest. If a big chip needs fixing, you'd wish for that micro bevel.
on industrial blades is always a microbevel. ALWAYS. there is no steel that could manage a single bevel on a wide and thin cookingknife from the spine to the edge...you always need a little angleincrease or a microbevel.
What is the best knife for filleting tuna 🤔
Please
Hey @Burrfection I think a cool video to see would be comparing the polish each grit range gives you on a blade. So like 10 different grits from 320 to 10k or beyond. To really get a good idea of each it would probably be best to do it on ten of the same knife. And if you wanted to give me one you used that would be cool. Jkjkjkjk. Seriously tho it might help if someone was looking for an exact level of polish on their blade to have something to compare to.
The advantage of micro bevels, and the sole reason they are used by people, is the sharpening time. When you use a multi stone sharpening set up, essentially you are polishing the entire bevel of your knife. That can take an extended amount of time, and is more expensive the more your experience grows and requires higher quality stones. Micro bevels allow the primary bevel to be sharped to a much coarser finish, the final step to creating a sharp edge on a knife with this process is a few passes on a high grit waterstone or ceramic rod at a higher angle, creating a microbevel. As you are polishing a much smaller area, it’s really simple to polish a knife this way. After some use, you can just skip the maintenance procedures and reset the micro bevel in a matter of seconds. Very efficient, quick, and it produces great results every time. However, since a coarser scratch pattern produces more aggressiveness in a knife, it may not be as suitable for some kitchen knives, as clean cuts are very important in certain culinary situations. Still, not that much people will notice any difference in performance. Essentially, they are optimal for cheaper knives that you don’t want take your time to sharpen.
If i get the suehiro cerax 3030 1000 grit stone, will i need to soak it longer compare to the normal 1010
Ricki, I don't know how well you can sharpen convex by hand yet, but i'd like to see if convex edges (finished at the same angle of apex) compare favourably or not to flat ground edges.
i only use Micro bevels on cheaper or softer steels (lower hardness), then i feel like its the worth to spend the extra time sharpening .
I use microbevel on my Knifes with angle of 10º on the Edge, and a microbevel of 20º, why i use this, cause the cut power will be the same of a 20º Edge, but to resharp the microbevel will be 100times quicklyer than sharpening a V edge, with 3-6 strokes on King 1200 i can resharpen it and 5 pushs on the strop i will Polish it, thats the advantage of using a microbevel, it turns easy the maintence of the Edge, and the maintance will be even easier with a sharpmaker with the Fine and Extra Fine rods
also i recommend u to read the article "Experiments on Knife Sharpening" from Dr. John D. Verhoeven
Boxcutters as far as I know all come with microbevel out of the box, because of the material it's cutting(cardboard, one of the most abrasive material in daily use), thin grind, acute edge angle and low Rc. They did microbevel cause it's the cheapest solution available trying to prolong the edge retention. As a result, even a brand new boxcutter is never a good cutter against thin material like paper because the actual edge that's doing the cutting is the barely visible microbevel that is more obtuse and coarser. You can always feel and see the drag with a boxcutter cutting paper that shouldn't be happening on such a thin blade and basic carbon steel.
Great video. If you plan to remake I'd be interested to see softer steels since most people including me have those. Probably KS is not the average knife :) Seeing the graphs and data was very exciting for me.
I enjoy the process of sharpening my knives, so I tend to add a single edge micro bevel. However, I've not really been able to tell the difference between when I do and when I don't. (At least not in practical application scenarios) I enjoy doing it so I do it, but the extremely marginal performance benefit won't generally be worth it for people with less time to sharpen, or people who would rather have a simpler sharpening process.
I have set just one micro-bevel. I did it on both sides, and it has worked very well. I do not do it more often since I have not found it necessary to achieve a very sharp edge with the right tools and technique. However, an EDC m390 steel has given me fits. I can get it sharp, but never enough. (I know this is relative). This is very difficult steel to sharpen, but I have done it before; however, in this knife, it has been such a challenge. The double edged micro-bevel sharpened quite quickly, perhaps because the micro edge is so much less metal to sharpen or maybe due to the additional edge combined angle. Not sure, but it worked well. I have no desire to do this as long as I am successful otherwise.
My spyderco comes with a 30 degree primary bevel and 40 degree micro bevel. If I were to sharpen it, should I maintain this setting or do away with the micro bevel? I'm new to free hand sharpening but I've been using the spyderco sharpmaker which has slots for both 30 degrees and 40 degrees. But my hands a growing itch to try sharpening on the whetstone. Hehe
If you need a 60° edge then sharpen to 60°. I don't see the point in converting a 30° (15 each side) edge to a 60° edge. Fine cutting and hard steel for fine edges and softer steel with less fine edge for cleavers and the likes. Use the correct tool for the job. A tacking hammer can't be used as a sledge hammer. From what understood was the finer the cutting angle the thinner the edge the more delicate the edge and work it can do. The wider the edge the more blunt it will be and therefore good for chopping bones.
The point of the micro bevel is not to make the knife sharper or more durable.
The objective is to make the MAINTENANCE easier.
You have less material to adjust.
Just that.
I had a microbevel on one of my knives a while back, it was useful for preventing edge damage due to the steeper final angle, however I found the extra step in sharpening made it pointless afterwards it’s easier/faster to sharpen the knife with a regular edge. The sharpness difference was negligible
But your microbevelled knife can seem sharper because it very likely that u get a very clean edge without any little burrs if u do it properly
Everyone who says something like "every knife needs a microbevel" clearly has no idea what he is talking about. Even the term "microbevel" itself seems to be misunderstood by many; some people seem to think it's the thin secondary bevel (or edge) you find on most knives, as far as I know it's actually a very small third bevel on the already small secondary itself.
Is a third bevel better on a knife? Well that very much depends on the use case, what you expect from a particular knife and the angles of the bevels themselves. Saying that one particular grind is better than another without a specific context in mind is like saying "a kitchen knife is better than an outdoor knife". While that might be true in a cooking related context, it's not when it comes to chopping wood.
So yeah, a microbevel has it's usecases, but it's not the "best" edge for every knife. I mean, every cook knows that you don't do every job with the same knife for a reason. Same goes for every other knife.
The confusion probably comes from the primary bevel is the very first grind on a flat piece of steel, most people probably do not count that bevel and count the second bevel or the sharpened part as the primary bevel. That is actually the second bevel and if you put a micro bevel that would be a third. The way you describe it could confuse people into thinking its something different.
Unless you are talking about 3 bevels after the primary, then its kinda ridiculous because your approaching round at that point lol
Since there are zero grinds wich only have a primary bevel (scandi knives, bushcrafters etc.), of course I'm counting the first grind. But I don't think that's the source of confusion. If you look up "microbevel" you find a lot of drawings that show the cross section of a blade with only two bevels and the blade behind that beeing flat/parallel, claiming the normal cutting edge is a microbevel (propably just because it's smaller than the first grind).
Btw a "round edge" is not really that ridiculous; there are a lot of knives (mostly outdoor knives) using a convex edge, because it's very resistant to chipping.
I feel everyone is misunderstanding how the geometry of a cutting edge works. It's quite simple but maybe difficult to explain or visualize, so everyone ends up having these weird theories. It's easier with diagrams but I'll try to explain and just hear me out. First understand the convex edge is the superior edge geometry in all use cases. It is however, not anymore resistant to chipping than a normal edge, never mind that axes use them. Think of any normal knife/edge grind and imagine the cross section. At each "step" where the angle changes there is a shoulder, 2 shoulders for normal "V" grinds. This shoulder causes resistance when cutting and provides no structural integrity since it protrudes out from the rest of the blade. If you were to round off and remove all the excess material from these shoulders, without touching the apex and the area immediately around it, you would be left with an edge equivalent in all capabilities and "sharpness" as the original edge with the added benefit of less cutting resistance. This is the convex edge. You can think of all normal edge grinds as an approximation of this more superior edge grind, where the closer the approximation, the better the grind. Normal grinds are used, only because they are easier to create and easier to be precise with the angles you want. If you understand this, I believe you should be able to easily know when to use a microbevel, when not to and what every type of edge grind does.
The most likely cause of confusion, why people think a convex edge is a less sharp, beefier version of a normal edge is because people start with a blade with specific angles and grind down the apex into a larger angled convex apex, thinking this would be the equivalent convex grind of the original but, this is not true. It is not the equivalent convex grind of the original, since the original angles no longer match up. This new convex grind is no longer what the original grind was approximating. To get the correct equivalent convex grind, one must either grind the only the shoulders without touching the apex, or start with a narrower angle and grind down the apex to the desired angle. Because this is tedious, difficult and harder to understand, normal grinds are used but make no mistake, they are slightly inferior.
Sorry, this ended up being a bit too long...
Stanley Chang Good points. It's true, a well done convex edge is technically the best possible edge geometry for (almost) all uses(, if done with the correct angles etc. for the intended usecase). And you are right, it technically is not more resistant to chipping; however in outdoor usecases, like chopping or batoning, you want a little broader angled edge to prevent chipping. And in those broader angles, a convex edge can make a noticable difference. A more narrow profile with the same strength as a V grind at the same effective angle. That's why it has the reputation to be more resistant to chipping. I just didn't want to go more into detail on that, because a convex edge wasn't really the point of discussion here.
I HATE MICRO BEVELS ON SWORDS THEY ARE VASTLY INFERIOR FOR CUTTING SCANDI GRIND IS FAR SUPERIOR
Interesting, but not shocking. A more acute edge will always be sharper, but one would expect a less acute edge to be substantially more durable. Putting a 60° microbevel on a 30° bevel seems a bit much. I'm thinking a 40° microbevel would not only perform better, but might retain its edge longer.
likely, the results would only be measurable with a device. not so much practically.
Please make a video how to sharpen serrated knives!!!!!
chronoZ750 you can’t.
I think the only time I notice a benefit from a micro bevel is on a single bevel knife.
A bit off topic but I have a JCK Original Kagayaki VG-10 Series. It seems to have different size bevels on each side. Why is this and how should I approach sharpening it? Thank you, love your videos!
this was a very solid video/opinon.......maybe this topic should have been addressed sooner. but at least you tackled the topic and gave a positive answer.
enjoy what u have enjoy what u do......
when it comes to knife sharpening there are no rules, you just need to find what works for you and your purpose but i personally will sacrifice edge retention for sharpness every time
Interestingly the microbevel is the basis behind the Spyderco sharpener that I uesd for a number of years (and still do for a few kitchen knives and several folding knives if I just don't feel like getting out the tone). There are two positions available on the block for orienting the rods, one to set the back-bevel (used only infrequently) and one to "sharpen", which is really just the microbevel in these terms. It does work quite well. Learning to use stones work far better and I can't be bothered to set a secondary on stones on knives with good steel.... but like you basically summarized "i can't hurt".
Damn right there's no right one way to do any of this. Preach it. :)
Hey ricky if i were to start learning bout knife sharpening which video top 3 should i start learning from the videos u posted?
Dear Ser! Please look at the result of your work in a microscope and show it. The result will upset you. Best regardrs.
I have used micro bevels on wood working tools for axes and other things that undergo heavy shocks, but even there only in hard though woods. And not always with much success.
I got a question. Can one sharpen a pizza cutter? What about a potato peeler? Are they meant to be sharpened?
What a question your asking lol for me I don't bother with micro edges if my knives don't glide through what I'm doing then it's a good reasons not that I need one to get the stones and sharpen a few knives . When are your bridges coming an interesting video cheers
I only micro-bevel on my ZDP and I’m having trouble apexing the blade. (I use Lansky crock sticks) For this the micro-bevel of 5 degrees per side works wonders!
I only use micro bevels on chopping type knives to me it appears to add strength also knives with a high Rockwell hardness I tend to through on a small micro beveles. I do want to say this your vids have made a huge impact on the way I sharpen knives you've just made them a pleasure to learn from ive realy learned allot also you are responsible for my addiction to Japanese kitchen cutlery lol never owned one a day in my life until I bought a Dalstrong and now I own several. So thank you for your video's. When I get the $ together I realy want to purchase a strop or 2 from u.
I always do the J motion.
How to remove micro bevels on Masamoto white steel no1 sashimi knife? Thanks
Thought, if the microbevel on one side retained the edge better, would just sharpening the knife to a 22 degree on each side work the same, no messing with a microbevel.
Wouldnt you be able to do as many cuts on rope as you want... if you didnt do them all at once?
really got into this because of you but I feel like I shouldn't bother because I got all budget equipment and seems to be all you talk about and all your catering to is people who spent a lot of money.
This couldn't be further from the truth! 😂
Watch more videos he has reviews on every price.. he sharpened on a brick before
as the saying goes...sharpening is 10% equipment and 90% technique. expensive stuff will not make you a better sharpener. if you can get good results from the gear that you have, you're already ahead of the pack!
Question, if you need to pick up only 3 stones (and the grit # for each one of them), what should I buy, are they have to be from the same kind?
Can I buy one of you extra KS?
Something is missing, what about 8°~ sharpening and add a microbevel after that. Getting to a lower angle on the bevel might help cutting since it get the blade thinner at the edge, and the micro add a bit of toughness!
It depends how you use your knife. ie. cutting bone or chopping boards.
I've just been waiting for the 100000 subscribers for the custom knife project.
Excellent video. Very true what you said about there being multiple ways of approaching this topic.
You should do a video sharpening knives with everyday objects
I don't think we're all thinking about micro levels in the same way. For a typical FFG, I initially grind at a very acute angle (just lift the flats off the stone enough to comfortably sharpen). When that is approaching the appex, or even beginning a burr, I'll then move up to a smooth stone and lift the spine to the desired finishing angle. So in effect my actual apex edge bevel is a truly small surface area that is easy to polish up and still at around 30 degrees or what ever your desired angle. If I need a tougher field edge I just adjust the angles accordingly, but the apex edge is always a very small surface area at the desired angle. In effect this is the illusive convex edge bevel. All things being equal it is not a stronger edge, but does perform better with limited strength sacrifice.
hi Ricky I it takes me long enough to sharpen my knives slowly and I am happy with the results thanks to your tutorials I don't really know why a microbial is necessary I have listened to many knife sharpeners and they all have strong opinions one way or the other as far as I am concerned as long as you can get your knife sharpened and it stays sharp for a few weeks I don't think there is a need to go further . I have been using the strop you sent me and it has helped me keep the edge on my knives longer between sharpening .A question why did you use the Suehiro debado stones in places the cholera stones .
Regards Dean from Oz
just testing more stones. i know i love the chosera stones, and just trying to use more stones, and different grit ranges. the suehiro stones are very different and fun to use
is there a reason why you do not own any global knives?
Question, if you need to pick up only 3 stones (and the grit # for each one of them), what should I buy, are they have to be from the same kind?
What I mean is can I start with Chosera 800 Grit Stone, move to Chosera 3000 Grit Stone and then finish with other 5000+ Grit manufacture stone.
Thank you
Guy
Guy Naba I do find that the scratch pattern on your knife is more consistent with the same brand, and those three grits would be a great option. But most important, even if you only use one stone, is to keep your angle consistent over the entire edge.
watch tomorrow's video.
you know what.. you should do some extreme cut test!
Question: I have a King KDS 1000/6000 combination stone. Can I soak that stone every day without water logging it to the point of damage or performance loss? Or does it need time to dry out between uses? Is your answer the same for all soaker stones? Thank you for making sharpening accessible to those of us who don’t know anything yet.
@Mark Schonhoff I have this combo stone. In my experience, the 1000 side barely needs any soaking, say 30 seconds. The 6000 side is better used as splash and go. I sharpen my work knives about once per week. Lately, I don't pre-soak the King 1000/6000, only splash of water is needed. Pre-soak makes the stone too soft and easily damaged. I put away the stone to dry on wire rack. It's ready to be used in same condition after 5-6 hours.
Thank you
I am soaking the 1000 side for 25 minutes and using the 6000 side as a splash and go. I settled on 25 minutes on the 1000 side because the stone seemed to dry out before I could get through a pass if I soaked it for less time. Is that correct reasoning? I think I saw in another video on this channel that it’s best not to stop in the middle of a pass. And splashing the stone during a pass does require me to stop.
So basically a secondary bevel....
yes.... that's what i call it too! but don't let the knife trolls hear it
@@Burrfection I use a micro bevel on my broadhead, works amazing. Stays sharp the whole way through
Very informative. Thank you
Exelent vídeo and advice as always!
Actually
Amen brother!❤️
Do a five or six inch boning knife we been waiting and you still doing the same knifes.
Quad bevels. Who agrees?
TBH i've been using 5 bevels my whole life. You guys are amateurs
my round tip bevel trumps them all
The mythbuster of knife elitists. Nice video Ryky!
Toxic snobbishness is what destroys every hobby-community. Whether it is knife sharpening, coffee brewing or wine tasting, there is always those group of snobs who ruin it for everyone