A quick clarification 8 months later; listening to how I describe the opening bass line, I feel like my point comes off a bit muddled. What I was trying to say was that multiple iterations of the octatonic collection are used for this opening figure, not simply one as is sometimes described in educational material (or sometimes the bass line is ambiguously described as "an octatonic bassline" with no further clarification to what that means for young composers) The reason I chose to focus chordally, was to bypass some of the confusion students have if they are not familiar with the various forms of the octatonic collection, and Stravinsky's interlocking use of them here. Nonetheless it did seem a bit muddled as I watched it back today so thought I'd just add this addendum to clear things up.
Great Stuff. Thanks so much for such an informative video . Young IGOR owed so much to Nikolai Andreavich . This ( after Fireworks and the now re-discovered Funeral Song ) is really the first of Stravinsky's Great pieces . As he explored the Octatonic scale using both the trick ( rimsky's ) of harmonising notes from one octatonic scale with dyads from another, he also created a system of a ladder of thirds. Maj third,followed by minor third starting a semitone below the previous highest pitch. C,E...Followed by Eb Gb....then F, G..........24 unique pairings before it repeats . This gave Stravinsky a system to exploit. Here he differed from his teacher. Much more planning and control of patterns on a sub harmonic level . The "chromatic mediant modulations" you speak of really just Minor thirds and better explained by the octatonic scale. The chords are all moving using that scale as a root. Stravinsky was still a bit of a traditionalist here (1910) and was happy to use the Octave divided into 4 rather than the previous fifth structure. Stravinsky's Glissando Harmonic combo was pinched from Ravel Rapsodie Espagnole.....who pinched it from Rimsky !!!!!
AHHH THATS IT. That explains the opening bassline. I had a teacher say its "in an octatonic scale" but I was like…… uh no its not in ONE octatonic collection alone. It can be seen in two at once you are most definitely correct. I think for educational purposes it’s better to just inform students of the Tritonic relation as it’s easier to understand but you are no doubt correct
Also getting here a bit later, but I really appreciate you noticed Stravinsky's division of the octave at 4th as opposed to 5th. By doing so it inevitably will enhance the inherent dissonance of a piece, without dragging into atonal no mans land (as Rameau predicted) Thank you for addendum information that I did not know (ladder of thirds etc.) New incredible tools of analysis for me! Thank you
Such a great encompassing yet concise analysis! I really love how you explain things - it's a talent :) Thank you for this Stravinsky series. It is so enlightening. If you feel like doing more of these composers videos please don't stop :) As for the opening of the Firebird, I actually do agree that it's more easy to approach it as notes accompanying the triads. AFAIK Stravinsky, as you've pointed out, was about the exploration of tritone relations + he was inspired by finding out / making up new scales. We can't precisely say where his language comes from: scales, chords or both, but talking about the introduction theme as a variation of an octatonic scale just looks like an unnecessary overcomplication (at least to me).
LOVE THIS!!!! While watching this I was wondering which pieces you chose for part 2 and 3, and you surprised me. I was like, "I bet he does Agon, cuz it transitions from tonal to (not so strict) serialism. Perfect dip in the water before jumping in." Nope....Dumbarton Oaks! Love that one too. And "The Flood"? That one rarely EVER gets mentioned so it will be great to see your analysis. Thank you for this hard work!
Thank you so much!!! Yes!! The final entry will be on Stravinsky’s serial period! and the second entry is out now! th-cam.com/video/-d0_GaZM4Zg/w-d-xo.html Stay tuned for that in the next couple of weeks!! Other composers/artists will follow that!
great analysis, congrats!! I study in solitude like you, and I too have reached the same conclusion as you about the chromatic mediant in 17:14… in fact I’m focusing on the relationship between the dominant with the flat fifth, and the French sixths (having the same sound and, in my opinion, can easily be functionally interchangeable)...
Surprised you referred to Mussorgsky for the tritone major triad relation considering Petrushka famously used them too. Love this music so much so I'm subscribed to follow for more!
Yes! Petrushka does this quite a bit, just wanted to highlight Stravinsky most likely got *some* inspiration (I infer) from that VERY prominent movement in Boris Godounov, which he no doubt would've heard in Rimsky-Korsakov's study, as around the time Stravinsky was his student, Rimsky-Korsakov was in the process of re-orchestrating many of Mussorgsky's works (who had just passed). Thank for the subscription!
Thank you for your great analysis. You do really great work and it cleared up some things for me. However I have a point regarding theme B in the Introduction. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Same as you I do it on my own. So here's how I see it: Starting in Bar 10: On the 7th eight note bassoons and clarinets play together a Db minor triad. On the 11th eight note bassoons and clarinets play together an Eb major triad. Bar 11: On the 1st eight note bassoons and clarinets play together (regarding the rhythmic pattern not in rhythmic unison) an F# minor triad. Although the sections (also entering flutes) never play in rhythmic unison, I can see this pattern going on in bar 11. Separate sections play either major or minor thirds, which can be added up to major or minor triad. The overall structure is though the same. To sum it up, always ascending within the room of a perfect fourth: [Db minor --> Eb major --> F# minor] --> [F# minor --> Ab major --> B minor] --> [B minor --> C# major --> E minor] Here going back to the octatonic scale the explanation can be: Lower dyads come from: [C# octatonic scale] --> [F# octatonic scale] --> [B octatonic scale] High notes come from: [G# octatonic scale] --> [C# octatonic scale] --> [F# octatonic scale] Then it's get a bit loose, but the idea is still there. Bar 12: Here he plays around with dyads: clarinets play C-E and A#-C#, flutes play Gb-Bb and E-G. So here it's like in Petrushka: C half-whole scale. Anyway, let me know what you think! :-)
@@NAETEMUSIC Thank you very much! Ok, after beginning to study the ladder thirds (mentioned by Ed Buller) everything makes now much more sense and there is a lot connection in his different works.
@@crimsonelp Yes this video was very educating for me as well from the comments!!! I learned a lot more about Stravinsky's method in ways I din't think I would alone! Salud!
A quick clarification 8 months later; listening to how I describe the opening bass line, I feel like my point comes off a bit muddled. What I was trying to say was that multiple iterations of the octatonic collection are used for this opening figure, not simply one as is sometimes described in educational material (or sometimes the bass line is ambiguously described as "an octatonic bassline" with no further clarification to what that means for young composers) The reason I chose to focus chordally, was to bypass some of the confusion students have if they are not familiar with the various forms of the octatonic collection, and Stravinsky's interlocking use of them here. Nonetheless it did seem a bit muddled as I watched it back today so thought I'd just add this addendum to clear things up.
Great Stuff. Thanks so much for such an informative video . Young IGOR owed so much to Nikolai Andreavich . This ( after Fireworks and the now re-discovered Funeral Song ) is really the first of Stravinsky's Great pieces . As he explored the Octatonic scale using both the trick ( rimsky's ) of harmonising notes from one octatonic scale with dyads from another, he also created a system of a ladder of thirds. Maj third,followed by minor third starting a semitone below the previous highest pitch. C,E...Followed by Eb Gb....then F, G..........24 unique pairings before it repeats . This gave Stravinsky a system to exploit. Here he differed from his teacher. Much more planning and control of patterns on a sub harmonic level . The "chromatic mediant modulations" you speak of really just Minor thirds and better explained by the octatonic scale. The chords are all moving using that scale as a root. Stravinsky was still a bit of a traditionalist here (1910) and was happy to use the Octave divided into 4 rather than the previous fifth structure. Stravinsky's Glissando Harmonic combo was pinched from Ravel Rapsodie Espagnole.....who pinched it from Rimsky !!!!!
AHHH THATS IT. That explains the opening bassline. I had a teacher say its "in an octatonic scale" but I was like…… uh no its not in ONE octatonic collection alone. It can be seen in two at once you are most definitely correct. I think for educational purposes it’s better to just inform students of the Tritonic relation as it’s easier to understand but you are no doubt correct
Also getting here a bit later, but I really appreciate you noticed Stravinsky's division of the octave at 4th as opposed to 5th. By doing so it inevitably will enhance the inherent dissonance of a piece, without dragging into atonal no mans land (as Rameau predicted) Thank you for addendum information that I did not know (ladder of thirds etc.) New incredible tools of analysis for me! Thank you
Liked and subscribed this is badass
fax
Thank you so much!
Such a great encompassing yet concise analysis! I really love how you explain things - it's a talent :)
Thank you for this Stravinsky series. It is so enlightening. If you feel like doing more of these composers videos please don't stop :)
As for the opening of the Firebird, I actually do agree that it's more easy to approach it as notes accompanying the triads. AFAIK Stravinsky, as you've pointed out, was about the exploration of tritone relations + he was inspired by finding out / making up new scales. We can't precisely say where his language comes from: scales, chords or both, but talking about the introduction theme as a variation of an octatonic scale just looks like an unnecessary overcomplication (at least to me).
LOVE THIS!!!! While watching this I was wondering which pieces you chose for part 2 and 3, and you surprised me. I was like, "I bet he does Agon, cuz it transitions from tonal to (not so strict) serialism. Perfect dip in the water before jumping in." Nope....Dumbarton Oaks! Love that one too. And "The Flood"? That one rarely EVER gets mentioned so it will be great to see your analysis. Thank you for this hard work!
Quickest subscription I have ever given. Love the series. Hope you continue it!
Thank you so much!!! Yes!! The final entry will be on Stravinsky’s serial period! and the second entry is out now! th-cam.com/video/-d0_GaZM4Zg/w-d-xo.html Stay tuned for that in the next couple of weeks!! Other composers/artists will follow that!
great analysis, congrats!! I study in solitude like you, and I too have reached the same conclusion as you about the chromatic mediant in 17:14… in fact I’m focusing on the relationship between the dominant with the flat fifth, and the French sixths (having the same sound and, in my opinion, can easily be functionally interchangeable)...
Fantastic analysis! Subbed!
Thank you ! 🙏🏻
Surprised you referred to Mussorgsky for the tritone major triad relation considering Petrushka famously used them too. Love this music so much so I'm subscribed to follow for more!
Yes! Petrushka does this quite a bit, just wanted to highlight Stravinsky most likely got *some* inspiration (I infer) from that VERY prominent movement in Boris Godounov, which he no doubt would've heard in Rimsky-Korsakov's study, as around the time Stravinsky was his student, Rimsky-Korsakov was in the process of re-orchestrating many of Mussorgsky's works (who had just passed). Thank for the subscription!
Thank you for your great analysis. You do really great work and it cleared up some things for me.
However I have a point regarding theme B in the Introduction. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Same as you I do it on my own. So here's how I see it:
Starting in Bar 10:
On the 7th eight note bassoons and clarinets play together a Db minor triad.
On the 11th eight note bassoons and clarinets play together an Eb major triad.
Bar 11:
On the 1st eight note bassoons and clarinets play together (regarding the rhythmic pattern not in rhythmic unison) an F# minor triad.
Although the sections (also entering flutes) never play in rhythmic unison, I can see this pattern going on in bar 11. Separate sections play either major or minor thirds, which can be added up to major or minor triad. The overall structure is though the same.
To sum it up, always ascending within the room of a perfect fourth:
[Db minor --> Eb major --> F# minor] --> [F# minor --> Ab major --> B minor] --> [B minor --> C# major --> E minor]
Here going back to the octatonic scale the explanation can be:
Lower dyads come from: [C# octatonic scale] --> [F# octatonic scale] --> [B octatonic scale]
High notes come from: [G# octatonic scale] --> [C# octatonic scale] --> [F# octatonic scale]
Then it's get a bit loose, but the idea is still there.
Bar 12:
Here he plays around with dyads: clarinets play C-E and A#-C#, flutes play Gb-Bb and E-G. So here it's like in Petrushka: C half-whole scale.
Anyway, let me know what you think! :-)
Good catch! there is some petrushka-esque harmony during that jaunty b section! I def should've pointed that out! thank you! good ears!
@@NAETEMUSIC Thank you very much! Ok, after beginning to study the ladder thirds (mentioned by Ed Buller) everything makes now much more sense and there is a lot connection in his different works.
@@crimsonelp Yes this video was very educating for me as well from the comments!!! I learned a lot more about Stravinsky's method in ways I din't think I would alone! Salud!
Great video! Just a suggestion: it would help if you played some of the examples after you talk about them and if you annotated the score more.
@ 16;30...the Movement from C#7 to E7b5 is Octatonic as well as being made up of ladder of third combinations.
Yes!! Amazing!!
I hear quite a lot of Lyadov's influence too...
I liked and subscribed, but it seems to me that the issue of putting video on the note needs a solution.
Waiting for new videos.
Part 2 of this series is in the works and coming soon! Stay tuned! EDIT: Here it is! th-cam.com/video/-d0_GaZM4Zg/w-d-xo.html