UP 844 / 4014 Renovation Status presented by Ed Dickens on March 5, 2016 at the Rocky Mountain Train Show pt 1 of 2 To see part 2 click this link • Union Pacific 844 & 40...
Great presentation on the progress made in 844's restoration. Having had a few interactions with Ed over the years, he is the consumate professional on representing UP's efforts to maintain and correctly restore their steamers. Keep up the tremendous efforts, Ed! There are many railfans who learn from you and your team. Bravo...!
It's unbelievable how much Ed Dickens knows about steam locomotives and how he reveres them and is dedicated his life to their preservation and operation.I'm awe struck by this presentation. Hats off the Mr. Dickens and the entire UP steam crew for all their great work as well as their love of these machines and never ending desire to do whatever it takes to maintain and preserve them and for Union Pacific for giving them the needed resources to do it. It's incredible how much is going into restoring 844. I cannot imagine the task that lays ahead on 4014, then there's 3985 to be taken care of. I hope the day will come when they are all operational and in tip-top condition. I'm sure Mr. Dickens and his crew can make that happen. Ed made the statement that it's difficult to maintain these locomotives and that's why not many operate today. That's certainly understandable but it's also a testimony to all the steam people of the past that once kept thousands of them running throughout the country and thought nothing of it. It was their job and they got it done.
Why is it dangerous? He seemed very respectful of the locomotive in his presentation on restoring 844. I've heard from other people he doesn't like that locomotive, but I have no idea why.
Ed certainly seems to have a thorough knowledge of steam locomotive technology and design. Maybe what he said about 3985 is correct. Possibly the boiler is beyond repair and the locomotive needs to be relegated to static display. I'm certainly not an expert on the subject, but I would be inclined to value his judgment. On the other hand, can the locomotive be repaired correctly and operated safely? There's probably a way, but that's a question I cannot answer with any authority as I don't know enough about it. If the locomotive has a crack in the boiler, maybe it's the end of the line for it. There's a GTW locomotive at Steamtown with the same problem. It's recently been repainted and looks beautiful, but it will never see service again. Static display only. Thanks for your comments.
Since the UP's steam crew's entire existence is dedicated to keeping the railroad's historic locomotives and other equipment maintained, perhaps a new boiler should be fabricated for 3985, plus whatever else it needs. It doesn't matter how long it takes. They can pick away at the job until it's done. Eventually they will have three super power locomotives in tip-top shape for all to enjoy. I'd like to see that happen. 3985 will probably stay on the back burner and be the last one restored. I hope we see all of them up and running someday. I applaud UP for never turning its back on its heritage and working to preserve so much historic equipment both operational and as static display.
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g bridgman why would they spend the $M's to restore the 3985 when they have the 4014? the 844 is high speed passenger steam and the 4014 is super power freight. UP has the equivalent E9s and DDA40X on the diesel side. heritage is covered. there is no unique place for the 3985 i just don't see the UP going to all the expense of fixing, maintaining, crewing, and running the challenger. don't get me wrong i love that locomotive. i have even been in the cab a couple of times but i am trying to be realistic
You are probably right. My perspective was any steam is good steam and to have all three UP .locomotives in top-top shape and usable seems like a great idea. But I'm not in charge of their steam program and it's not my money, so it's easy for me to say that. The 3985 has a star studded past and shouldn't be relegated to the round house or simply static display. What the hell? Double head it with 4014 when they're done! :) It's great that UP is restoring a Big Boy, but I never thought it would be at the expense of 3985.
Ed probably doesn't read this but I can make his life much easier. Take a big magnet drill, remove the base, attach a 1/4" steel plate to the base with a hinge on one side and a bolt on the other, then attach another plate to that hinge with a hinge at 90deg to the 1st one and a bolt opposite, then attach the magnet drill to the opposite side of that hinge. By doing that you can angle the mag drill in any direction so you can align and dill your holes. The leverage you can get on a mag drill will make putting those holes in much easier. and probably more accurate since it won't want to walk when it is magged to the boiler.
Ed has some extremely talented craftsman working for him I have faith that all three of those locos will be safe and operational given the time and resources.
As a retired Manufacturing Engineer and train fan I am so disappointed in the condition of the 844. This answers many of our questions relative to the 3985 and it's condition. As a USAF aircraft mechanic and very mechanically talented I see what we call Jerry rigging relative to maintenance on these locomotives and serious neglect. Who knew Mr. Lee was German? Under combat conditions these processes would be acceptable to complete the current mission like we had to do in Viet Nam, but I'm confident not on the Union Pacific.
amazing work. Corrosion/exfoliation is not water, it is the ph +ionization. This leads to some questions of modern rails lit by electricity more than ever. Are there plans to measure and guide to something like heatsinks? I was a crew chief on a military plane less than 10 years younger than 844. Similar errors..sky, land and sea.
I would also prefer they ran on coal, the smell and sparks is just a part of steam locomotives. They used stokers to feed the boiler, so no shoveling to keep uo steam. But yes - in the yard or in general the maintenance is much more convenient with crude- oil or diesel.
02powertube as built the big boy carried 25,000 gallons of water and 25 tons of coal. The big problem today burning coal is all the locomotive coaling docks are either gone or the machinery is gone making them unusable. Now visualize this leave Cheyenne yard headed west with 4000 tons of freight on the drawbar the UP had coaling docks roughly every 25 miles west of Cheyenne as the big boy would and was capable on freight of emptying the coal bunker on the tender and yes I've talked to retired UP engineers that ran the 4000 in regular service. One told me of a trip where they barely had enough steam to roll up to the next coaling station more often when they first went into service then they wanted, ten minutes after arriving they were back on the move. He said until they increased the capacity of the coal bunker on the 4000 class to if not eliminate the problem they really reduced the likelihood of running out of coal before you got to the next coal dock. UP now list the capacity of a 4000 coal bunker as 28 tons. Do you suppose running out of coal just before you stopped at the next coaling station was why the increased the capacity of the tenders? Not a good way to run a railroad but with a new design you always find little opps! Why didn't we think of that? For an engine the size of a big boy it's remarkable how they ran and I've heard of in a pinch they used em on passenger where they better miles per ton because of lighter tonnage tied on. Converting to oil makes sense for easier cleaner refueling, no ash to remove or handle, no coal dust. And allows them in a pinch to use straight diesel from the same rack that fuels the diesels. Another major advantage if the haven't done it already is converting a auxiliary water tender to all fuel with the appropriate pumps to transfer fuel on the fly. How you like to ( I'm taking an educated guess here ) have one auxiliary tender with say 40,000-50,000 gallons of fuel behind the auxiliary water tender. Auxiliary water tenders generally use two large water hoses identical to the hoses the connect the tender to the engine. The auxiliary fuel tender could use both steam and 480 HEP as a backup to keep the fuel where it needs to be 160 degrees minimum so it will flow and atomized as it enters the burner. With a full fuel aux tender that minimizes using expensive diesel fuel as it's easier to program a trucks to refuel on the road with filtered waste vegetable oil. I hope i live long enough to see her come out of the shop on her own power.
+theshapeexists Pulling is not in question. Like the 3985 and the 844 they hook on diesels to help them stop. The big boy can replace four of the largest diesels today pulling a train.
+choochoo3985 yes, you are correct. I was stating that it wouldn't be allowed by law without the assistance of diesel braking. I heard a big boy can single handedly pull a 5 mile long train, so power is definitely not an issue.
+theshapeexists The railroad decides how they run power on trains, not any law. Dynamics are the key to maintain braking downgrade but when push comes to shove we use air brakes in addition to "Dynos" on steep grades like Donner. Saves on hot shoes and tie fires. That's why you almost always see diesels behind steam to save the brakes. Remember that back in the steam days we had cabooses with eyes watching the train front to back for hot wheels. That's all gone and we have detectors now.
UP RR plans to convert 4014 from coal to oil. They tried oil firing a big boy once before And it couldn't cover the 150 square feet of firebox area reliably. I feel confident the UP Will find a way to make it work. Another reason UP converted 844 to oil is Less likely to start right of way brush fires and in a pinch they can pull up To the diesel fuel rack or call a home heating delivery truck to fuel the Engine in a pinch, lot easier than refueling with coal. Normal fuel is used Filtered vegetable oil. Yup a Big Boy can smell like French fries!!!
Nice presentation, he sure doesn't know why the 844 had to get sidelined early not because of faulty design, Alco designed great steamers, it's lack of knowledge and know how ion proper maintnence which led to this mess in the 1ST place!
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Great presentation on the progress made in 844's restoration. Having had a few interactions with Ed over the years, he is the consumate professional on representing UP's efforts to maintain and correctly restore their steamers. Keep up the tremendous efforts, Ed! There are many railfans who learn from you and your team. Bravo...!
It's unbelievable how much Ed Dickens knows about steam locomotives and how he reveres them and is dedicated his life to their preservation and operation.I'm awe struck by this presentation. Hats off the Mr. Dickens and the entire UP steam crew for all their great work as well as their love of these machines and never ending desire to do whatever it takes to maintain and preserve them and for Union Pacific for giving them the needed resources to do it. It's incredible how much is going into restoring 844. I cannot imagine the task that lays ahead on 4014, then there's 3985 to be taken care of. I hope the day will come when they are all operational and in tip-top condition. I'm sure Mr. Dickens and his crew can make that happen. Ed made the statement that it's difficult to maintain these locomotives and that's why not many operate today. That's certainly understandable but it's also a testimony to all the steam people of the past that once kept thousands of them running throughout the country and thought nothing of it. It was their job and they got it done.
Why is it dangerous? He seemed very respectful of the locomotive in his presentation on restoring 844. I've heard from other people he doesn't like that locomotive, but I have no idea why.
Ed certainly seems to have a thorough knowledge of steam locomotive technology and design. Maybe what he said about 3985 is correct. Possibly the boiler is beyond repair and the locomotive needs to be relegated to static display. I'm certainly not an expert on the subject, but I would be inclined to value his judgment. On the other hand, can the locomotive be repaired correctly and operated safely? There's probably a way, but that's a question I cannot answer with any authority as I don't know enough about it. If the locomotive has a crack in the boiler, maybe it's the end of the line for it. There's a GTW locomotive at Steamtown with the same problem. It's recently been repainted and looks beautiful, but it will never see service again. Static display only. Thanks for your comments.
Since the UP's steam crew's entire existence is dedicated to keeping the railroad's historic locomotives and other equipment maintained, perhaps a new boiler should be fabricated for 3985, plus whatever else it needs. It doesn't matter how long it takes. They can pick away at the job until it's done. Eventually they will have three super power locomotives in tip-top shape for all to enjoy. I'd like to see that happen. 3985 will probably stay on the back burner and be the last one restored. I hope we see all of them up and running someday. I applaud UP for never turning its back on its heritage and working to preserve so much historic equipment both operational and as static display.
g bridgman why would they spend the $M's to restore the 3985 when they have the 4014?
the 844 is high speed passenger steam and the 4014 is super power freight. UP has the equivalent E9s and DDA40X on the diesel side. heritage is covered. there is no unique place for the 3985
i just don't see the UP going to all the expense of fixing, maintaining, crewing, and running the challenger.
don't get me wrong i love that locomotive. i have even been in the cab a couple of times
but i am trying to be realistic
You are probably right. My perspective was any steam is good steam and to have all three UP .locomotives in top-top shape and usable seems like a great idea. But I'm not in charge of their steam program and it's not my money, so it's easy for me to say that. The 3985 has a star studded past and shouldn't be relegated to the round house or simply static display. What the hell? Double head it with 4014 when they're done! :) It's great that UP is restoring a Big Boy, but I never thought it would be at the expense of 3985.
Ed probably doesn't read this but I can make his life much easier. Take a big magnet drill, remove the base, attach a 1/4" steel plate to the base with a hinge on one side and a bolt on the other, then attach another plate to that hinge with a hinge at 90deg to the 1st one and a bolt opposite, then attach the magnet drill to the opposite side of that hinge. By doing that you can angle the mag drill in any direction so you can align and dill your holes. The leverage you can get on a mag drill will make putting those holes in much easier. and probably more accurate since it won't want to walk when it is magged to the boiler.
Ed has some extremely talented craftsman working for him I have faith that all three of those locos will be safe and operational given the time and resources.
Ed did an excellent job with this presentation. The slide show was very helpful.
• Cheers from The Detroit & Mackinac Railway 🚂
Great videos and great work. Thank you for taking the time to document the progress and to share with everyone.
Thank you Mr Ed Dickens , I hope to meet you in Sept this year....
Sounds like that the team is taking their time and doing it correct.
great UP 4014
As a retired Manufacturing Engineer and train fan I am so disappointed in the condition of the 844. This answers many of our questions relative to the 3985 and it's condition. As a USAF aircraft mechanic and very mechanically talented I see what we call Jerry rigging relative to maintenance on these locomotives and serious neglect. Who knew Mr. Lee was German? Under combat conditions these processes would be acceptable to complete the current mission like we had to do in Viet Nam, but I'm confident not on the Union Pacific.
I Totally get the tube rolling thing, you explained better than textbook!
your cool, I want to come help, send me a Plane ticket!
amazing work. Corrosion/exfoliation is not water, it is the ph +ionization. This leads to some questions of modern rails lit by electricity more than ever. Are there plans to measure and guide to something like heatsinks? I was a crew chief on a military plane less than 10 years younger than 844. Similar errors..sky, land and sea.
PS: Got it figured out. I saw a sister engine to those at the city park in Cheyenne. How'd they get it there? Thanks again for all you do.
last time that firebox was replaced was 05
I don't know if this was asked and answered already. What did they use to replace the ASBESTOS with? Furnace cement, perhaps?
i cant wait for the 4014 to be running the rails again
I know hooe it shows up at railfest in north platte nebraska one year
like it reason clear report.
Mr. Ed Dickens, wish I could work for you (with you). This guy is what the real 'AMERICA' is all about.
I want all three to run again, I REALLY hope they don't decide to retire 3985 like I've been hearing.
+Steve W They sure sound confident that 3985 will return, but it is just 3rd in line for the "TLC" .
I sure hope so! I know it needs a lot of work.
+Steve W
I'm sure it will. In the past few years, they have invested over 2 million dollars into it!
I'm definitely glad, the Challenger is my favorite of the three, not much different than the Big Boy, just a Big Boy minus 4 wheels. :)
+talesin- god of the internet last I heard, 3985 was on a 5 year overhaul...
to think that women used to drive the rivets when that engine was built..
Called it, I knew they would convert the 4014 to oil like they did the 844😅
convert? Yes. No one is going to run coal in 2016. Just sayin. Wish we could but..uh. no.
+Frank FREAK Yeah. It's for the better. It'll free up the firemen to do other things other than shoveling and slaving over a hot firebox.
I would also prefer they ran on coal, the smell and sparks is just a part of steam locomotives.
They used stokers to feed the boiler, so no shoveling to keep uo steam.
But yes - in the yard or in general the maintenance is much more convenient with crude- oil or diesel.
02powertube as built the big boy carried 25,000 gallons of water and 25 tons of coal. The big problem today burning coal
is all the locomotive coaling docks are either gone or the machinery is gone making them unusable. Now visualize this leave Cheyenne yard headed west with 4000 tons of freight on the drawbar the UP had coaling docks roughly every 25 miles west of Cheyenne as the big boy would and was capable on freight of emptying the coal bunker on the tender and yes I've talked to retired UP engineers that ran the 4000 in regular service. One told me of a trip where they barely had enough steam to roll up to the next coaling station more often when they first went into service then they wanted, ten minutes after arriving they were back on the move. He said until they increased the capacity of the coal bunker on the 4000 class to if not eliminate the problem they really reduced the likelihood of running out of coal before you got to the next coal dock. UP now list the capacity of a 4000 coal bunker as 28 tons. Do you suppose running out of coal just before you stopped at the next coaling station was why the increased the capacity of the tenders? Not a good way to run a railroad but with a new design you always find little opps! Why didn't we think of that? For an engine the size of a big boy it's remarkable how they ran and I've heard of in a pinch they used em on passenger where they better miles per ton because of lighter tonnage tied on.
Converting to oil makes sense for easier cleaner refueling, no ash to remove or handle, no coal dust. And allows them in a pinch to use straight diesel from the same rack that fuels the diesels. Another major advantage if the haven't done it already is converting a auxiliary water tender to all fuel with the appropriate pumps to transfer fuel on the fly. How you like to ( I'm taking an educated guess here ) have one auxiliary tender with say 40,000-50,000 gallons of fuel behind the auxiliary water tender. Auxiliary water tenders generally use two large water hoses identical to the hoses the connect the tender to the engine. The auxiliary fuel tender could use both steam and 480 HEP as a backup to keep the fuel where it needs to be 160 degrees minimum so it will flow and atomized as it enters the burner. With a full fuel aux tender that minimizes using expensive diesel fuel as it's easier to program a trucks to refuel on the road with filtered waste vegetable oil. I hope i live long enough to see her come out of the shop on her own power.
When the 4014 is finished can it pull trains on its own?
+Tartendymion 54 doubtful because of lack of dynamic braking
+theshapeexists Pulling is not in question. Like the 3985 and the 844 they hook on diesels to help them stop. The big boy can replace four of the largest diesels today pulling a train.
+choochoo3985 yes, you are correct. I was stating that it wouldn't be allowed by law without the assistance of diesel braking. I heard a big boy can single handedly pull a 5 mile long train, so power is definitely not an issue.
+theshapeexists The railroad decides how they run power on trains, not any law. Dynamics are the key to maintain braking downgrade but when push comes to shove we use air brakes in addition to "Dynos" on steep grades like Donner. Saves on hot shoes and tie fires. That's why you almost always see diesels behind steam to save the brakes. Remember that back in the steam days we had cabooses with eyes watching the train front to back for hot wheels. That's all gone and we have detectors now.
Michael Beard
when the 4014 is done will it run off coal or oil?
+talesin- god of the internet ok thanks for the reply
UP RR plans to convert 4014 from coal to oil. They tried oil firing a big boy once before
And it couldn't cover the 150 square feet of firebox area reliably. I feel confident the UP
Will find a way to make it work. Another reason UP converted 844 to oil is
Less likely to start right of way brush fires and in a pinch they can pull up
To the diesel fuel rack or call a home heating delivery truck to fuel the
Engine in a pinch, lot easier than refueling with coal. Normal fuel is used
Filtered vegetable oil. Yup a Big Boy can smell like French fries!!!
So it is going to burn oil?
From the sounds of it yes
Nice presentation, he sure doesn't know why the 844 had to get sidelined early not because of faulty design, Alco designed great steamers, it's lack of knowledge and know how ion proper maintnence which led to this mess in the 1ST place!