How to choose a violin bow? (Bows by Silveira, Hill and Son, Lupot)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 มิ.ย. 2024
- How to choose a violin bow?
In this video we take a look at that overwhelming question for string players- what do I look for in choosing a bow? Should it be heavy or light? Wood or carbon fiber? How much should I be paying for it? Here we address all those questions, plus have our own bow 'trial session' with bows by D.Silveira, W. E. Hill and Son, and François Lupot II. Can you tell which is which?
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FINALLY BOWS! Was walking with friends and passed an antique JUNK shop. There was a violin, in pieces, also two bows--in pieces. Got the works for $75. Took it to my hero, Jeff Saws, Sacramento. One day he calls to tell me "It has a voice!" WOW. Never played an instrument with "A Voice!" Nothing about the bow(s). For me, this was such joy. My own violin with bow had been stolen years ago. No real loss as it was a nothing. So, I contacted a friend at the symphony who showed me some "how-to-get-going-again" steps. Thrilled! The bow had a mind of it's own--until we began to communicate. You never know what you'll find walking with friends. 🙃
You sound very articulate on bow #1! Nice nuances!
Thank you! Please don't take this down: will need to refer back to this often.❤❤❤❤❤
Great video! I love that you’re talking about bows. I feel like everyone focuses on the instrument when the bow is the other half to that instrument! I could definitely tell that the 3rd bow was the one you felt most comfortable with. The articulation sounded clean and it didn’t look or sound like you were struggling to play. Can’t wait to see your next video on bows.
My favorite bow is a W.E. Hill bow that I bought along with a violin in pieces at an antique shop for $100. It's currently being rehaired for the third time since I've owned it. It's soooo much better than my two star Klaus Becker.
I’m very fortunate to play with a beautiful Pfretzschner bow!
Bow 1 produces more interesting tones.
Love your videos, always learn something new from them. Looking forward to the second half!
I learned so much from this. It’s too bad that beginners often have junker bows longer than they have poor violins. I thought that you made the Hill bow work so well that it seemed effortless. Your skill compensated for any deficiency as far as the listener was concerned.
Agreed, the Hill sounded so beautiful.
The bow really does make a difference. I had a bow in college that didn't match me so well and felt like it held me back. Now I have bows by Robert Morrow and JJ Millant that I am absolutely in love with and they feel like an extension of my arm.
That's fantastic, exactly as it should be! :)
Hello Katha, great video, very informative; I even read the comments, and although I’m a novice and currently at home with basic carbon fibre bows,
I still learned quite a bit. 👍
I’m always inspired by your violin playing. Looking forward to more great stuff. As always, thank you and kudos to you..👨🏻
Wow thanks. Love the snow in the back. I’m here in Miami Florida. Thanks for the video
An instructive and valuable video covering an often neglected area. i played for a long time on a decent violin with a less than adequate bow and wondered why I was always struggling.
That would do it! It can be incredibly frustrating to play on a not great bow- I think my number one tip to people looking at bows is, if it makes you angry, don't buy it!
Very interesting and informative, as always! Your videos are the true Lupots of TH-cam! :)
Aw, thank you! That made my day :)
I personally didn't like the Lupot bow when it was playing variation 11, but loved it when it was used for variation 4.
Each bow has their strengths (personality and playing-wise I would say!)
I used to have a (genuine fine French) bow stamped as "LUPOT" and eventually decided to sell it. After doing quite a bit of research I found out it was made by one of the Bazin family.... so... it was a copy, but it was the sort of copy that's desirable. I honestly wouldn't really be able to tell the difference between a Lupot or Bazin but funnily enough I'd bought the bow for quite a bit less than it was actually worth. I had it certified (I can't remember the appraiser but it was either P Childs or B Millant) and it ended up being described as a "wonderful example of Bazin's work with a great choice of pernambuco".
Only the greats know each wonderful maker's work and at the time that I sold it I realised that stamps sometimes mean close to nothing. You have to be careful in the bow world! I also learned that there were tens of thousands of bows stamped "LUPOT" or "BAZIN" made by German workshops, but still from quite a while ago. I was young haha. Some of those bows aren't worth much but others are a bit higher in value. Luckily: I sold it because I didn't like the feel of it in comparison to other bows. I went on to by two more bows, one more expensive and one less expensive than the Bazin "Lupot" that I owned and actually [currently] like the less expensive one much better!
I can see your passion when you play and watch/listen forever on TH-cam. I learnt a lot from your videos 😊
Excellent video ~ I also picked the bows in that order from your playing ~ interesting
I'm thrilled and glad to discover your Chanel. Subscribed and shared live it❤️
And most importantly, thank you a million 💐
Thanks for watching! Hope these are fun- and helpful!- to watch! :)
Bow 1 sounds cleaner and is more sensitive to pressure. The others squeak sometimes and seem harder to play. I would be happy with no 1.
Yay wonderful!!! First one
Very well-made and useful video, and your playing is lovely too! I should pull out my copy of Tartini...
Oh, do! I did a class on it in Meadowmount forever ago, and while it was appalling at the time, it's actually a lovely and very challenging piece! I should really make a recording of it for here..
Fascinating, I actually learnt something. Great playing by the way. 😎
Glad to hear it Steve! I always learn something from putting these videos together too :)
I read of one well-known violinist who has several major-league pernambuco bows worth tens of thousands of dollars each. He bought an $8,000 Arcus S9 carbon fiber bow. He prefers the Arcus to ALL of his other bows!!
Exceptional playing on all bows and you always play interesting pieces.
Just keeping myself interested! :)
@@aTonalHits Roll on more interesting days... or less interesting? Something akin to the old normal anyway.
Great video, very informative. That galamian bow hold picture. That’s if Itzhak Perlman
For me number two!🙏
Very much enjoy, sincerely thank you. It's either different bow, or tensioned bass bar.loosing G resonance and skating. Excellant help. Thank you, and looking forward to.morre
Something funny occurred for me as you were playing each of the bows - I felt them in my own hand! This was especially true of the Lupot, which made my hand muscles relax in response. Weird... it reminded me very much of a Peccate I fell desperately in love with four decades ago, but could in no way afford. The only bow I've encountered (and I have tried just about everything) that "played by itself".
These days I use a late 19th century Albert Nürnberger (II) (not dissimilar to the Lamy I had use of in uni) and a Dodd (unusual creature, but draws a glorious sound and is "entertaining" to play with unless I need to fill a big hall). Fun fact - I got the Nürnberger in a trade for a chinrest (true!). Back in the late 80s I bought one of Benoit Rolland's 'Spiccato' carbon fibre bows which I use for most orchestra work. It is a bog-standard 60g and uses a "key" to adjust tension of an internal core - anything from fairly "loosey-goosey" to madly wired-up. I experimented with it when I first got the bow, got it as I liked and haven't touched it since even though I carry the key in my case constantly.
On my "to-do" list for the next year or so is buying a bow from one of my dear bowmaker friends.
Thanks for the wonderful videos. More to explore yet and looking forward to any upcoming!
Bow1 for more intimate and colorful pieces, bow 3 for the main concertos. 2 is meh
I like the sound of you violin.
Didn't realize it, but I needed this video! (And a Treasure Chest with Gold :) )
Aw! Well, can't supply the gold, but glad this got to you! :)
As I see it flexibility and balance are the important features of a bow....these are easiest to reproduce in a good quality carbon fibre bow....I therefore switched from wood to carbon fibre...and I have been very happy with the bows that I use...I have two of the same manufacture...one to use when the other is being rehaired...I rehair the bows I use yearly....
The creater of your violin
I had a Hill for a bit, on loan only for a few months. It was stamped at the silver tip and also on the stick (under the frog) with number "2". Therefore it was made by Edgar Bishop, very nice! It was too light for my liking (I had to press into the strings a lot) so I gave it back, but really it made my viola sound great. I looked at another later-made Hill (A. Bultitude) which I loved and wanted to buy on the spot but I played it in front of my friends and colleagues and a teacher and they said it completely dulled the sound of my viola. So.... I loved the feel... but it wasn't a good match for my instrument at all unfortunately.
Definitely #3 is my favorite
Incomparable, right? I got so mad at the other two, hah!
@@aTonalHits 🤣
I really like bow #2
Great show. What was the violin you were using? That has a nice character also.
Bow #3 walked all over #2. I've found that with violins, Hills can be a bit soupy. Violists like their bows, but the violin bows should sound different. #1 came across pretty well but the Lupot has some magic.
I love my arcus t9 bow, it honestly feels like magic. The only drawbacks of carbon may be the weight and stiffness that's probably it (many people done like carbon fiber due to it being so light)
Yes, I agree about those drawbacks (the lack of weight), especially for a viola. You couldn't pay me to use a carbon fibre bow!
Bow 3 was the best fit. I can't explain why it's the best.
I like bow 1
Have you heard of the Codbow Aspire? Is it a discontinued version of the Codabow Prodigy? Are they similar? Which is better?
Please tell, if it is available online
Hi Katha. Great video. I have been told that bow making is a balance between playability and sound quality. Thus professional bows tend to be more difficult to play while beginner bows are easier to play but do sound as good. What is your opinion? I have one of each. My starter bow is a Holstein pernambuco from Fiddlershop and feels clunky, not particularly well balanced but sounds okay. It digs into the strings well and stays straight and is good for basic bowing. My good bow is a FN Voirin and is on the light side at 55 grams. It is well balanced and has rich overtones and a feeling of solid superior quality. Definitely better for more advanced bowing. However it is quite sensitive and if I’m not careful it can get shaky or slide around a bit. I hope to grow into it as my skills improve. Does that make sense or should a good bow be easy to play and sound great at the same time?
Hm- that's actually a bit of a tricky question. Technically, the more you play and study the instrument and the bow itself, the more tactile your right hand, and specifically the fingers, become- able to search out the nuances of a bow. So the bow itself shouldn't be controlling if you're straight- that's all you, but perhaps the weight of the bow is something that's compelling the odd angling. I didn't say this in the video, but for me, a good bow puts a smile on your face: literally! All the skills that you've honed over the years become easier. A bow that doesn't fit you well will make you angry, also literally. I got so fed up with the Silveira when I was practicing with it, it was so difficult to play the Tarantella! But you're right- a good bow is also much more sensitive- like a Chevy compared to a Ferrari. If you're not in complete control and ready for a bow like that, all of your inaccuracies will be magnified. Hope that makes sense! :)
What are the weights of each bow?
Huuh! So much snow! You are lucky.... but we had also quite a bit of it today :-)
I wonder if a bow will change its properties over the years? Maybe it´s hard to notice, as the player itself changes much more than the bow. But all the playing times added, there is a huge amount of tension and also vibration on the wood. As bass bars can get weak over the years and have to be changed, it seems to be different for the bows, as the oldest one was the best (at least in this test). Very interesting topic, I'm looking for the upcoming videos!
Btw., is this a Shinto gate in your garden??
That's a really good point! I would also feel like it would weaken over time, with all the vibration... but yes, the oldest one in this video is definitely the best! However, that could easily not be the case for most historical bows- this one is just a really gorgeous bow! Also, when you bring this to bow repairers/makers, they will often check the wood and make adjustments. In one of our next videos, where we talk with Yung Chin (who was featured here,) he gets a bit into that.
And lol- yes it is! Except it's not my garden or house, it's my Friend’s! I wish we could have a garden, but we just have a stellar view of a Chase bank from our apt window, hah! :)
I agree that the bow will change its properties over time, even day to day depending on the environment. But I think day to day changes are very small and players can adjust to them without noticing. Changes over the years, however, are hard to fully understand as wood ages differently from us. It’s true that normal wood loses tension over time, but the speed at which it happens can vary greatly between woods, how the wood was prepared, cambered and maintained. In the end, it’s hard to generalize. My rule of thumb is if it feels good and sounds good today, it will probably remain so at least in my lifetime,
Could someone let me know what brand of bow can I purchase? I am new to playing violin but not new to music.
Thank you for your video but you forgot that bow also made from IPE wood too!
Very good playing and valid points, but keep in mind that not everyone can afford a $1000-plus bow. I have three carbon fiber bows that were in the $100 dollar range that seem to work well enough. The violin is not just for the wealthy - even us "poors" can get enjoyment from the instrument. Even if we have to get our bows by "looking something up on Amazon or Craigslist."
Surely 5:30 is Perlman (who also uses a Franco-Belgian bowgrip)
You sounded best on Bow 1. Bow 3 was next. Then Bow 2. It just appears that Bow 1 was easier for you to play.
There are fine modern bow makers just as there are fine modern violin makers. You are certainly right about the importance of the bow. I am always puzzeled that young players will go into debt to obtain a fine (usually old) instrument but then play with won't pay $5,000 for a good bow. Better to have a first class bow and a less valuable instrument than vice versa. At lest you will know you are getting all your instrument is capable of.
My thoughts exactly!
That was a revealing comparison. My impressions of the bows based on your playing was that Bow 1 was light and nimble, perhaps too light. Bow 2 was hard to use, and it made you play slower. It was the most rigid of the three. Bow 3 brought out the best tone from your violin. I play guitar, not violin. Still, it was easy to hear how each bow affected your playing and sound. Thanks
Right on the money! That's exactly how I felt. I also chose the hardest (and most annoying?) thing in my rep at the moment to play nicely- the Tarantella- as a good example of what to expect from different bows. I think it shows most from there!
@@aTonalHits which Tarantella?
On average i spend 2 -3 hours every week listening to different instruments by different makers
Before the reveal of names and prices i determined that bow three was the best
How do i take this to a different level
Maybe to be a judge of some sort for violin competition
Im pretty fair and accepting of all styles of violins
What are the qualifications to be respected for your knowledge on violin sounds And makers ?
Do you think a contemporary bow can produce as good a tone as an old French bow can? There have been double blind studies to show modern violins can match old Italians but I wonder if a similar study has been done for bows? I’ve heard if Pecatte were alive today and had access to only the woods we have now, his bows wouldn’t sound as good.
Yes, absolutely! I'm not aware of a similar study for bows, but look- the wood is still there and, as we'll talk about in the next bow video, bow makers are making a conscious effort to make a renewable source of pernambuco. I firmly believe that you can get a contemporary bow just as good as an old French bow- for less than half the price! In this video, I was not thrilled with either bow 1 or bow 2, so it may seem like I don't think that way- but honestly, I know that bow- bows- are out there, I just haven't met them yet!
@@aTonalHits what you should also ask Yung Chin to talk about are the different sub-species of Pernambuco, some of which may be extinct, as well as that many of the first two generations of bow makers used non-Pernambuco species. Maybe that is too nerdy for TH-cam?
Do you teach?
Why it gotta be so hard to get/choose a bow, I just want to buy one so I can start practicing violin again 😔
Странно, я "выбрал" Люпо уже на втором упражнении...
Hi again!
How are you? I've always wonder. Is it really worthy to buy a really expensive bow?(+100.000 dollars) or you couldnt really tell the difference?
Great question! Honestly, over $100 is very necessary for any violinist who wants to start to understand the nuances in their music, and in their own playing. For an intermediate player developing their skills, and with a limited budget, I would recommend a carbon fiber bow starting at around $500.
@@aTonalHits hi! Thank you so much! Although I meant one hundred thousand dollars not one hundred dollar hahah
I think it depends on how you define the term worthy. As a pure tool to make music with, at 100, 1000, 10000, the differences will be very obvious; but I think there is a point where you start to get diminished returns purely as a musical tool. In addition to being a musical tool, historical bows are also object of art, antique and even investment, thus their value become subjective and sometimes speculative.
I couldn't hear any difference between the bows, I don't know if that's because I'm hearing them through a speaker or because there really is no significant difference. How do you feel about carbon fiber bows, they should be not only more durible but they also shouldn't be effected by humidity.
Not hearing any difference in the bows is not that crazy- the difference is incredibly slight! If you're into it, listen again, and listen to the sharp little attacks in up bow staccato, or maybe just in the tarantella: the attack will be much wider in the silveira, less so in the hill, and very sharp in the lupot. It's a bit of a split second response, if that, but that's all it takes to get a violinist complaining! :)
As for carbon fiber- you're right! They are MUCH more stable. And I would definitely recommend them for any learning violinist, or any amateur violinist. As you develop in your skills, the more you will be able to understand the nuances under your fingers. But, as I tell my students, it took me twenty years to become comfortable with the bow in any form, so there are definitely many steps in understanding a bow!
Great playing. Great violin. However, mostly in the upper half of bow.For full potential, the whole bow needs to be used. FROG! Also, fiberglass was not mentioned. Best and cheapest for beginners.
I'm fairly certain that the first variation is 7, not 11!
Does the bow choose the player, Viollivander?
LOL I actually almost made a reference to that in the video... it totally feels like picking out a wand. Especially talking about wood. I would absolutely get a dragon heartstring core if it helped. :)
@@aTonalHits When I bought an Elder Wand replica and started playing with it, I realized that I automatically held it like a bow. Definitely not how they hold them in the movies, so it must be twenty-some years of muscle memory, even though I rarely handle a bow anymore.
I chose some bows recently. A Coda Marquise at around $1,200AU, a Hill Bow from 1920’s valued around $7,000 AU and I had a bow marked “Torte” of a similar age that had been left to me in a lady’s estate. It’s highly likely the Torte bow is a copy. The last was in very poor condition and had to be carefully repaired. My opinion after a year of playing is that the Coda Marquise is the best general purpose bow of the three. It’s well worth looking at these bows.
One of my students plays with a coda Marquise, and I couldn't agree more! A great option if you don't want to go all out on a pernambuco.
On the other hand, I daresay, the Lupot bow eerily transfers the player's "defects" into the execution. That aside, I too got the impression it was more than a bit ahead of the pack.
You're totally right- bow 3 was, overall, much more sensitive- so it's equally unforgiving. There were a few things I wasn't happy with in the playing for the video, namely the legato for bow 3, and you can see how it didn't translate very well into that bow, while the other two bows were pretty straight forward!
@@aTonalHits “Straightforward” is often a pretty good place to begin, and sometimes to end, in the absence of the magic bow.
да номер 3лучше
We’ve just gotta get you a cpl hundred thousand more TH-cam subs and that $70k bow will be within reach. I’d rather have a new loaded pickup truck for my $70k but I do totally get it. Every once in a while you pick up a tool that takes your work to the next level and for you it might be a 19th century bow. It was instantly obvious to me in your playing which bow you were favoring.
Haha, I'll definitely take the subs! And yes- I adore that bow. It literally had me grinning within second :)
You don't really choose the bow, the bow chooses you. Doesn't it work that way?
Something like that. And you know it's the right one when it shoots sparks out of the tip :)
@@aTonalHits 🤩
the really high end bow is like the really high end violin itself....all in the player's fantasy....the majority of players cannot afford an exorbitant fantasy...
A lot of players, like myself, borrow their instruments and bows from foundations. You're right, these instruments are just completely out of reach for normal musicians!
Have you heard of the Codbow Aspire? Is it a discontinued version of the Codabow Prodigy? Are they similar? Which is better?
Have you heard of the Codbow Aspire? Is it a discontinued version of the Codabow Prodigy? Are they similar? Which is better?