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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 ก.ย. 2020
- Hi, my name is Dr Sia. I am a psychotherapist, lecturer, and researcher. As per usual, I hope you comment, subscribe, and press that bell icon for regular updates.
In this video I discuss self-punishment and how it affects people with a disorganised attachment. We look at the reasons for self-punishment and the effects it has on a person - all from an intensive short-term dynamic psychotherapy (ISTDP) perspective. I have also posted videos on self-punishment and the other attachment styles so check these out too if you want! I hope the video resonates with everyone watching this!
Also make sure to follow me on @doctorsia on insta for regular written posts, IGTV posts, and live IGTV sessions on Thursdays at 20.30 AEST and more!
To contact me for sessions, supervision, or training, via telehealth or face to face:
Email: hello@mindhackpsychology.com.au
Website: www.mindhackpsychology.com.au
Telephone: +617 5591 5976
Instagram: @doctorsia
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I've been working VERY hard to be kind and patient with myself...lately.
That is great to hear!
Spot on. My self punishment use to be cutting myself but now it's in the form of staying up late, going back to smoking, and believing that the negativities that other people push onto me are somehow my fault because I'm not good enough, self doubt, not moving up in my carreer (also has to do with fear of success) and missing days of work throughout the years.
My addictions stem from this as well as anxiety that I was prone to so when my childhood was chaotic it just made my anxiety worse over the years. Every time I make significant change toward a possitive lifestyle for several months I wind up punishing myself and taking another step or two backwards.
Ohh dude, same here...
How is life so far?
Like, if you was able to change any of these shits pls, share how did you start to heal.
All the best!
@kekiir I began a spiritual path of self-realization and possitivity. The seed that grew into that was a dream I had when I was 19 years old (11 years ago) The very vivid dream happened to me in reality (deja vu) and my mind and variable ability of control and understanding have never been better. I can't go back to the old me even if I wanted to.
I am the same too. I started going to church for the peace I felt there. I started believing later. Still pretty hopeless, but sometimes a moment of relief.
@@merrill5780 Do they get you to look for an external savior instead of looking inward?
@@cadeplaisance3169 the Holy Spirit dwells within.
Wow it’s so accurate. It makes me sad because to see a person you love suffer from this is too much to bear
Oh wow. I just entered "Why do I punish myself once Im happy" and this great Video of yours was presented to me. I observe this behavior inside myself and it's so exhausting, bc I build my life up and then destroy it again (or external things start to happen which act in a same way). It's like Im building a house of cards just to smash it again. Especially in intimite relationships it's very challenging and most of the time I end them after about a year or my partner ends it :(
Thank you so much for this. It made me feel less alone and less weird by seeing the connection between my attachment style and my self-punishing behavior.
Best regards from Germany
Isabelle
Thank you for taking the time to comment Isabelle!
Havent found anyone really addressing this. Thank you.Lots on self sabotage but this is different. Its me. Kept me from ever trying to numb the anxiety/pain (since I feel I deserve it).
Hi Doc, I’m trying to find information on subconscious self punishment. I was harshly disciplined as a child, and I punish myself subconsciously by self anger, which raises my blood pressure. In essence, let’s say I procrastinate at work, by putting off difficult tasks to a later date. And then, after the task is overdue, I’m feeling out of control, blood pressure is high, I tell myself that I’m incompetent, I’m a failure, and generally feel stuck.
I think the book reaching through resistance is a great place to start or the lies we tell ourselves. Let me know how you go.
It's unfortunate that this developmental way of being gets called 'borderline personality disorder' and then one is treated worse by this sexist diagnosis. Really resonate with this attachment style. My siblings were and are treated differently to me and don't understand how I behave
This disorganized attachment makes some sense for me. I've tended to see the people who are hurtful to me as very vulnerable, moreso than me, and so internalized the anger and expression of it.
Yeah that makes sense. Thanks for commenting.
I love these videos! I am currently entering my last year of graduate school for clinical mental health counseling and it helps to hear this kind of information. I recently had to take an attachement style test and my results were Disorganized…but all your info is so so spot on!! Everything..like everything😭. Would love to know what disorders come out of Disorganized attachment & How people can get better with this attachement style
Really curious about those out there with this who contract diseases. I have so many questions and would be relieved to see more about this, I believe it could help someone I love. Thank you for such a great video.
Hi Dr Sia!
Im a psychologist living and working my first job in Sweden. Im only getting started doing clinical work outside a university setting, however I have studied and continue to study ISTDP.
Your videos are very informative, clear and useful. Thank you so much for your contribution to this incredible field.
I (and many others Im sure) would be very interested in a video - series aimed at ISTDP-practictioners. If this is indeed something you have the time and energy to do, I bet there is a demand as well as a whole lot of gratitude waiting :)
Happy new year!
thank you for commenting! My apologies for the late reply! Did you enjoy the video series on common mistakes? what else would you like to see?
i always self punish myself. i feel like if no one is going to punish me then i may as well do it myself
I am sorry to hear that
You can choose to stop, but it’s hard to let go of that strategy. I have a hard time with that.
Wow Dr. Sia! Thank you very much for this video! I have a big aha moment because you have almost perfectly described my childhood and my struggles as an adult.
I have a strong wish to stop existing, I tried it once when I was 10 years old, but unfortunately I was too coward to finish it. Last year or so I had the same wishes and told my family about that, and they were shocked and replied that if I do it they will do it as well. I do not want them to do it because of me and that pressure creates a lot of stress for me. "Luckily" my brain came up with a quite clever solution that I can achieve it indirectly through a disease, so they will not be destroyed that much by it. To achieve my goal I stopped caring for myself in regards to health and started ignoring all health issues and problems in the hope that I will develop a disease that will do the job for me and bring me to non-existence.
What helped my in a similar situation is: I don’t want to harm anyone, but self harm hurts always the people around me. So I cannot go on with this.
I know myself how it feels to lose loved ones to cancer, suicide, eating disorders or to lethal drugs: I never felt such an immense pain as seeing them deadly suffer.
I am still no good to myself, but I hope that I am in the process of doing babystep by babystep (in all directions at one 😅😂) off becoming the friend I always needed so bad.
I wish and hope, that my thought construct can help you too without pressuring you. I wish you well ❤
Thank you, I see many similar behaviors in your words.
@@muertito8077 Thank you very much for your kind supportive words. ❤
Love watching your videos! ISTDP is such an interesting therapy
I agree!
Great video Dr Sia 💚🙏
Cheers!
Your videos on disorganized attachment are by far the best ones. Also, you have a great hairline.
Hahahaha thank you!
Thank you for this!
thank you for commenting!
Hello Dr Sia,
Please do a video on how disorganised and dismissive attachments test their partners before committing??
Thank U.
Thank you I will!
Do you think there is a tie between the attachment style and the meyers Briggs personalities?? I have met quite a few ENFPs, like myself, who also have or had the disorganized/ fearful avoidant attachment style… I was wondering what your thoughts are on this.
This explains why I initially wanted to seek therapy, but now I have decided that I am just not worth the time. It truly doesn't even matter because I will never have a healthy relationship with myself or anyone else. It makes me really sad because I want nothing more in life than to experience love and have friends, but I am 32 now, and I don't have anyone I can trust or even talk to about it. I feel guilty for having to go to a therapist a complete stranger and dump my problems onto him/her.
Thank you for sharing. Therapists are not harmed by you so no need to feel guilty. Guilt is a feeling we have when we cause harm. Going to a therapist would reduce harm unto you and you need not feel any guilt because neither you nor your competent therapist will come to harm from therapy. I hope you find a way and I hope my videos are helpful along the way.
Does EMDR therapy work with this? If not what kind of therapy would help me or even a 13 year old?
Is it possible to present self-punishment here in a different way, where my body would be tense, but I wouldn't hurt myself, I would be constantly adding to the level of consciousness what hurts me, what's bad for me, and it would manifest itself in such a way that I would be thinking of those bad things all the time, and I wouldn't know how to deal with it, and it would be stuck in my surroundings, the closest thing to me, and I wouldn't be able to push it away
I feel like I punish myself by telling internal stories saying that I don't know myself, my mind makes up horrible intrusive thoughts that go against my core beliefs and tells me I can't trust me.....this all comes in waves which gets worse when I'm hormonal.....sometimes in romantic moments with my partner that I'm enjoying my mind will just tell me "you don't really love him" or "he's going to find someone else" or "you are ugly" or it will pick at his flaws and point to it as a reason why I don't really love him.....and then other times I feel extremely close with him and happy and super at peace with him....and this has happened in other relationships too.....it didn't help that I was married to a narcissist who was extremely mean to me for 10 years and then divorced....because he was always telling me I was fundamentally flawed and that no other man would be able to put up with me....I don't feel nearly as bad in the relationship I'm in now....it is very peaceful but these crazy thoughts pop up so much I hate it!
You seem to have come a long way in your healing journey. Good to keep being angry at the thoughts rather than at yourself!
Can disorganized attachment turn into ambivalent attachment after successful therapy treatment?
I really enjoy your videos thank you for explaining things in ways that others don't it would be really helpful to have Solutions of how to work out of being disorganized
Thank you for your encouragement! Here is a link th-cam.com/play/PLmbiYg1xcMK-C9kNsM7bPzasRgXQL9Hjr.html
and here is more for disorganized specifically th-cam.com/play/PLmbiYg1xcMK-70IPLS_ytQ5MJNPctToti.html
I tend to hurt my self physically when I'm angry at the people i love. I used to cut my skin hundred times until i was about to die twice. Somehow i stopped attempting to suicide but i still have the desire to hurt my self emotionally and physically whenever things don't go okay with anything i care about. I'm tired of the way i react. And i just realized this behavior of me today. I don't know how to ask for help to overcome this struggle. I want to fix this issue but I'm not sure if I'm strong enough to process
Thank you for commenting! My apologies for the late reply! I am sorry to hear what you are going through. Do you have access to therapy?
Hello meero I can somewhat understand your actions I think we all have different ways we punish ourselves , I really feel , the way to stop this and turn it to something else , ok , you ready for this now I don't know you so I will be totally honest with you and is has worked for me, I put my faith in Yeshua (Jesus) , I gave up everything I can't control to him , for me that means read and learn about him , praying , and following what he says I am born again and I am a different person , God knows what's in your heart and if you actually let him in and let the holy spirit work through you and live in you , I promise you will change , just do it ok , you won't be sorry , but you will be blessed I guarantee it.
Im so sorry to hear this. Sending you love. Its ok to be angry even at people you love. I wish you wellness and happiness
@@glamdoll9082 I am confident many out there will appreciate your comment if they see it!
@@leopic501everytime religion is mentioned anywhere, I stop reading, pisses me off
Pardoning the person who traumatized us, is a good to re-connecte with that part of us that fragmentated or was judged as traumatized, or its insulting to the enfant we were when we were traumatized?
Great question! I think you are correct in both ways! Splitting one way or the other will not be healthy. If we can understand the person who traumatized us and also understand ourselves we might be able to pardon without blaming ourselves. The risk of pardoning is that it might look like pardoning but it actually might be self blame or insulting the infant as you say. I hope that makes sense.
Keep these videos coming, great stuff. Would you say disorganised attachment linked in with borderline/eupd?
Yes very much so! So much so that there can be disorganized attachment without BPD but there cannot be BPD without disorganized attachment.
Yes. The term is outdated. Women have been re traumatized by well meaning psychology. Blaming the victim until very recently. It’s a cover up to deny abuse in society.
Could you maybe do a video talking about Preoccupied (me) and Disorganized (my BF) in a long-term relationship? I feel like we specifically struggle with communication and conflict resolution but we're also highly committed to eachother. We want to for better patterns but are lost
Both of ull rock in life🤟🤟🤟🤟
Hi Emma I missed this comment completely! Sorry about that. I will get to making one ASAP.
Also, are you taking new clients?
i do like the way you attend the subjects. I understand a lot off rigid ideas better with the new insights. i have shared some video's on my social media to get the themes out there. how can one try to start with the therapy in daily life, when there is already severe behaviour, maybe dangerous even? because after a while there is a lot of hurt and loss, extra bagage.
Great comment! Outside of actual psychotherapy, best thing you can start with is getting informed as much as possible. Have you read the book The lies we tell ourselves by Jon Fredrikson? Read anything you can get your hands on about attachment too!
ISTDP made me have much worse anxiety and depression. I started getting much better when I stopped and started doing Somatic Experiencing and Internal Family Systems. I did not like the bulldozer approach to triggering repressed anger that the ISTDP practioner tried to induce, with no form of titration or nervous system understanding at all.
Thanks for sharing. As long a therapy has thr core components of effective therapies they are worth checking out.
I am also a victim of this " special treatment" It causes me a lot of damage.
Hi. Will you wear a lapel mic on your shirt so we can hear you better.
I know it seems fine, but I’m listening while working, driving, and I’ve noticed other videos where the presenter has lapel mic, and it’s more clear.
Please if you would wear a lapel mic because we want you hear you more clearly! Thanks!
Do you work with the self-punishment before any other conflict? And do you treat the self-punishment as a conflict itself with a portrayal as such?
You work with the self punishment as a failed self-regulatory effort. You help the patient see that they are attempting to but failing to help themselves through self-punishment. You cannot do portrait of anger and such while there is self punishment in play. I hope that makes sense!
@@drsia2323 What does this look like when successful? Thank you for your reply!
@@jonathaninchina3693 Once successful you patient should appear more regulated (less teary) and more willing to look at their pain and subsequent love and anger towards attachment figures and other significant loved ones in life. I hope that makes sense.
One more suggestion can two avoidants work out a relationship? Fa and da
If so what are the challenges. Thank u
Excellent suggestion! Please keep them coming! Being a father of two etc, I don't get the chance to make the videos as soon as I like but I am listening and I will make them eventually! Thank you!
So how do we actually end the self punishment? 🤔
My apologies for this extremely late reply! I missed it in my inbox. We stop it through understanding why it is there to begin with and its true purpose. Both of which can be done in therapy with an attachment based therapist.
By the way this video is just plain facts.
Thank you kindly for commenting and so sorry for the late reply!
Please explain why the mind does this self harm? Why do people do it? What is the mechanics of the brain, of the psyche, the subconscious that makes it function? Thanks!
Maybe an extended video about this would be good?
@@drsia2323
This article is interesting....I think it's lack of agency during early childhood...
"One theory for this response from Western women is that their experience of “lack of agency” ".... pro.psychcentral.com/recovery-expert/2016/03/the-psychology-of-cutting-the-reasoning-behind-self-mutilation/
@@drsia2323 also this article.... I just skimmed it over but found sense of agency as a part of the theory expressed. www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2020.00449/full
when I found out my ex-girlfriend had cheated. later that day, I was working on a live electrical panel andI had a nagging thought and scolded myself about trusting her. out feeling that I must exact a punishment, grabbed a live electrical bus bar. woke up an hour later in the hospital with a 2nd degree burn on my hands. I grew up with constant vigilant around my parents and grown ups for signs of danger. I have been with 3 therapist in the last 3 years and the last therapist only lasted few months because I can't ever trust her again.
Everything you said there makes sense from an attachment perspective. Thanks for sharing.
It all started when the quarantine started.
It did for many
Hi Dr are you doing online therapy sessions and taking new patients?
I do online but no new patients until January next year.
@@drsia2323 how would I book a session with you from Jan please? Can I contact you by email? Thanks
@@drsia2323 Dr Sia how can we book with you?
Are you sure it’s not BPD? I thought disorganized didn’t self harm, but BPD does.
Yes I am sure. Your source must have misunderstood some of the foundations of BPD. Disorganized attachment is the attachment style that is present in every BPD case. So there is no BPD without disorganized attachment. However, disorganized attachment also is there for many other disorders such as DID, DF, Soft psychosis and more. Forms of self punishment (such as self punishing thoughts, behaviours, or urges) are typical signs of disorganized attachment in untreated adults. I hope this helps.
Today I paid $25 for a beginner 1 day archery class, I arrived 10 minutes late and missed the instructions and I didn't take part in the class voluntarily even though some nice guy and the instructor pushed me to do it and said the instructions again for me but my brain refused to take part in it and I simply left and felt as self punishment tool and my whole day was ruined. It was ruined because I know I don't have to be the way I am. I really hate myself
Your comment is sad.
You are not unknown. You know yourself or least the you now. By sharing I know you ( incomplete). As do others.
I used to be so down on myself that I would tell myself I dont even deserve to die because suffering all my life is what I really deserve. Id go along with it because at least I wouldnt kill myself, but that wasnt healthy either. I dont know if this is what I have, but it makes a lot of sense.
I let a homeless man who was 16 years older than me, move in my home and control and abuse me for years. I stupidly believed his lie about having terminal cancer in the beginning.
Your heart is in the right place!
Please read fully Hello guys my name is likhit I had anxiety most of the time since my childhood first it started with a heart pain I felt so fearful and my heart was painting and then one day my mom said it's all ur thinking and then I tried not to think about it and it has disappeared and after that I was playing a computer game and I had a fear of things that won't stop which means I had fear of my heart beat and fear of infinite and in game infinite money etc. I coped myself telling that it doesn't exist everything has a stop and left it. Then after some years I think 6 or 7 years I had breathing anxiety which continued for 2 or 3 months and after that I accepted it was a thought and it has gone away and after that it came back again and it stayed for 1 month and gone away after that for 2 years I was fine but after that I had an anxiety that if I will think negative and do a thing then it will become real I mean I was working in a store as a typist I thought if I will type some word with negative thinking that my mom and dad will die then it would become real so I cut the word and type it correctly without negative thinking this anxiety continued for 7 months after that covid 19 was started and then i had done lots of exercises and after that I had a mild headache due to excessive exercising which was little but once the lockdown started I didn't meet my friends and everyone then my headache got worse and it stayed 24/7 with me after struggling one month with this anxiety I and my family members shifted to vizag then also my headache was there and one day I was thinking something that wt if another anxiety hit me and I will be free from this headache anxiety suddenly a thought came wt if poop anxiety came and then the poop anxiety literally came it was like I will go to poop and then In my mind I will think that some one are watching me and they are laughing and I can't poop and i just can't remove the thought I had irregular bowel movements with this it continued till 9 or 10 months and I suddenly got relief and I was doing great for 1 month and then suddenly one night a fight happened between my mom and me that night I slept well but woke up with a fever and I was not able to eat anything so after 1 or 2 days the fever was gone but the feeling of vomit hadn't gone it continued I had strange feelings like I was in a spinning wheel or having wt if the universe is infinite it scared me and why my heart beats 24/7 it also scared me then I had earbugs means music stuck in my mind and some scary things stuck in my mind I have struggled with this for 1 or 2 months and after that it was gone and I became stronger now I dont have fear of moving things and heart beat and no earbugs no vomit feeling one day I had a strange feeling that why silence is there why sound is there I thought if I can't stay in silent can I stay in sound the answer was no I struggled with it for 5 or 6 days and it was gone upto 3 days before everything was fine I had coped with all my anxieties and I was doing great but suddenly my colleges were declared holidays and now I'm.having a feeling that what is happiness and what is pain or torture and my mind is telling to stay in torture or stay in fear don't stay in happiness I'm not able to decide what to do I'm struggling please someone understand me and save me even saying save is opposing me my mind is kinda don't be saved be in pain and torture I'm writing this very clearly please someone help me please
Thank you for sharing here. Do you have access to Therapy?
Good description. 👏
I punished myself with productive perfection that based on magically thinking, as I call it: like not allowing myself to eat, drink, sleep, social contact until … a 6 course meal for 10 people, the diplomat thesis of 40 pages, moving by myself for miles with a rented truck and hiring homeless people I encountered, … is done. But I allowed myself coffee and cigarettes to keep me going.
I grew up between unsocial and sadistic people, but no one of them was as scary as myself when forcing me to be productively perfect more then I could. I was always styled very time consuming, trying to look like someone from a magazine, always, from head to toe. I only felt safe as like a female form of an golden boy in every way. …
Now I am perfectly imperfect and I love it. It helped me to structure some steps into little ones like stopping to say thank you when there is no reason to be thankful for or asking for forgiveness without doing anything wrong and not feeling responsible for whatever may went wrong. One step after another I am very nice to myself now. Almost like everybody, I guess and it feels lighter around my shoulders. Hopefully it helps someone reading this too. 🫶
please clarify "*As an example,* perhaps they become a sex worker because they hate it." its misleading when phrased the other way.
Happy to clarify. In part, the child becomes chaotically organised around pain and suffering and they are not able to form effective strategies to distance themselves from suffering or avoid suffering. Instead, their behaviours are chaotically organised around unknowingly seeking suffering that confirms the attachment ruptures for examples. Does that clarify it for you?
@@drsia2323 yes!
I've used combat sports like MMA and boxing to punish myself
Yeah for that same reason many do sports, exercise, work, tattoos, sex, diets, and the list goes on sadly.
Yikes.
Yeah I know
is this why i thrown myself to the stray dogs
Possibly
@@drsia2323 i need books about this
@@siryoucantdothat9743 Yeah I am working on one.
@@drsia2323 can you recommend any source from academia