They did a really good job of making this look like a true duel. No long stretches of fighting, just long pauses followed by brief series of jabs, slashes and swipes.
The hair style is called cadenettes it was used for aesthetic purposes and also neck protection. Cadenettes were kept down using a small pistol bullet at the bottom of each of them, it was also a very good means to deflect and even stop a saber blow as the hair got very thick and could deflect or at the very least reduce such a potent deadly blow. I read somewhere they also put in small wooden rods at the center of the braids to further increase protection .
D'abord appelée moustache, il s'agit d'une mèche de cheveux que l'élégant porte plus longs du côté gauche, retombant sur l'épaule. Elle prend le nom de cadenette quand, au début du xviie siècle, Honoré d'Albert, seigneur de Cadenet et frère du duc de Luynes, imagine de l'attacher avec un nœud de ruban orné d'un bijou. Au xviiie siècle s'ajoute un nouveau sens. On appelle également cadenette une « boucle de cheveux qui pend à une perruque, et qu'on noue au milieu »[1]. Lorsque la perruque passe de mode à la Révolution, les jeunes élégants qui portent les cheveux longs se coiffent « à la cadenette » avec une tresse dans le dos, parfois relevée par un peigne. Le nom est également donné aux tresses que portent parfois les grenadiers et plus souvent les hussards, les corps qui ont conservé le plus longtemps la cadenette. Ce type de coiffure dans son usage militaire était censé protéger des coups de sabre.
Felipe Vasquez What I believe the Narrative was;(since I have studied Smallsword) is that he was likely going to twist the sword, which was common practice in these duels if the duelist really wanted their opponent to not recover, judging by Gabriel's character, I'd say that was likely the case, infact, if in the lungs, twisting it sealed their fate.
@@ChaoticNarrative Exactly, a guy pierced by epee doesn't lose his head and tries to save himself: he lets go of his own weapon and clutches the blade that impales him.... If you were late and your opponent had already twisted the sword, it basically meant death... In such a situation, the most you could do was try to at least stab your killer in response (which was also taken into account when entering the duel, as a last resort, a kind of consolation)...
Terrifying scene. You can really see that one is a soldier, and that they both know he is infinitely superior and how it's going to end. Much more a murder than a duel. So much more tension and psychology than those choreographed shit we see these days.
One of them is a duellist. He has fought many duels before; so he is calm under pressure. With the other one it is obvious it is his first duel (and last)
The beautiful part of this movie is this douchebag gets put in his place by the guy he had been relentlessly harassing, a guy that didn't even want to do any dueling and had great fear in doing so.
"Lieutentant Feraud has just skewered the Mayor of Strasbourg's nephew ; half a minute's work. I have just spent the last hour apologising to the Mayor on his behalf. Do you think you could convey to Lt. Feraud how much I should enjoy that?"
When I first saw this movie I picked up on as others have said, that Keitel was clearly not worried and the superior fencer. What I didn't quite realize is how terrified the old man was. Watching this scene by itself, you can see his state of mind throughout the fight... at first he knows he is probably going to die and is just trying to keep Keitel desperately at arm's length. Then he gets increasingly desperate. It is only after getting cut (with triangular smallsword blades, probably a tip cut, they don't really have sharp edges) that he in a rage rushes Keitel and is skewered. One has to wonder if he did so as a reaction in anger to being cut, or because he realized upon being cut it was better to get it over with. A wonderfully done performance and very probably an accurate portrayal of how most regular folks would feel if they ever had to fight a duel (namely scared as heck).
The thing is, duels back then where fought not to death but first blood- meaning that the older man would be able to call it then and there when his hand was cut, say he can't continue, and his 'honour' would still be intact as he fought the duel and lost fairly. Indeed, he doesn't even die in the film but is just severely wounded- similarly when D'hubert is wounded in the second duel and doesn't continue, or the third when both are taken out of the fight by their seconds as they could barely stand and it had descended into a brawl. Looking at how duels where conducted, it's obvious that a; seldom did they result in death and b; the goal of the seconds was to try and resolve the dispute as quickly as possible between the opponents, preferably without a duel even being fought. Many stories about people challenging somebody to duel in a drunken rage, and then the morning after recanting and apologizing when faced with the sober reality (also why duels where fought at dawn, both to evade authorities and give aggrieved parties time to think and reconsider).
Perhaps after being cut the inferior fencer attacked furiously, as he was thinking: "As I am going to run through the body anyway, it's better to be stabbed while stabbing my opponent, to at least sell my life costly"
I can't provide any sources atm, but I've seen old fighting manuscripts where the off-hand was held like that. It's basically there to catch of slap the incoming blade aside, which was possible, since rapiers had no edge to speak of. Even some messer/dussack fighting manuals have this position in them, the hand is held closer to the opponent to quickly enter grappling.
If you don’t know, this movie has: -fencing duel, saber duel in close quarters, fencing duel with more even match, saber duel, sabers on horseback, and then double pistols in the woods. There’s also some romance stuff but they pave the movie well enough so you’re always anticipating the next duel. Each one is memorable for different reasons.
To those of you who actually practice historical fencing, I recently watched an instructional video on period technique. The instructor made a simple off-hand comment that really stuck with me. Something to the effect that if you really want to focus your mind on your technique and momentarily get a feel for what it was really like to be in a life or death scenario, have your opponent take the protective tip off his sword (but instruct him not to actually land a hit on you). Having that menacing point right in your face brings a whole new psychological element to the game. It motivates you to be less sloppy and risky. Not something to do often, or for more than a few passes, for sure. I bring that up because it must be what the poor fellow in this duel would have felt. You can see the terror one must feel, of having a superior fencer's weapon coming at you.
It's true, as hard as we try, psychologically we are still people who live in a world absent of people using real swords to really try to kill / maim each other. There's a big different between really really not wanting to get hit because...you don't want a touch against you and lose the "bout" and really really not wanting to get hit because "holy shit there is a sharp piece of metal coming at me and I'll probably die if it hits me". As to your suggestion, I think it'd be an interesting insight, but damn...it'd have to be my coach or someone I seriously trust. I own a sharp hand and a half and when I first unsheathed the thing, this sense of awe / fear went through me. In fact, I looked up at my wife and stupidly said "It's a sword...". The tip on it is *nasty* pointy, I can imagine if that thing were directed at me I'd really want to get my shit together.
@@sparrowhawk81 i unsarcastically say this, but if i lived in the USA, i'd be afraid every day of my life, fucking SMGs and ARs and handguns going off at any time in any place, no way to counter them unless you're packing yourself and don't get hit first
I love Period movies. And this one shows how miserable and depressing life was at that time. The cobbled streets with the filth running down the open drain in derelict districts where Harvey and Keith walk down during their first encounter. The temporary barracks where the soldiers are stationed is decrepit and rain seeps thru the roof. Their encounter during the Prussian war in the cold bleak winter with the frozen soldiers among them... A great Tale in a true gritty depiction of the times.
I liked that the "reality feeling" was unusually strong, usually there is one bling-hero and endless flashy show. And scenery looked like from some old painting - exceptionally nice.
@Jonzen77 Overall the duels in this film are the most realistic and best ones in cinema history. No ridiculous backflipping over tables, no flashly moves or 'twirly-whirly' fighting; just two men trying to kill each other with proper technique.
I liked this scene. First, you could see from the start who was going to win, just by studying the combatants' body language. Notice how relaxed Harvey Keitel's stance was throughout. This was no duel, it was an execution.
Oddly enough, Harvey Keitel had *_zero_* experience with fencing when he was cast in this role. The fact that he didn't actually know what he was doing actually made it more believable when you consider that his character was an "upstart" who had a grudge against the aristocracy (like D'Hubert) who had supposedly been trained for this sort of thing all their lives.
Robert Walters and now that I think about it, why revert to combat knives if swords are a much more effective military sidearm? Sure they’re easier to carry than swords but a long reach is always a bonus. Plus dueling is more of a “may the better man win” situation than two people with a gun, in which case is a “I hate you so you have to die” situation.
Vaar Köbke ok, that being said, 1. I already agreed with you, even though 2. A sword is still a superior alternative to a knife in terms of effectiveness as a sidearm
I've only seen this scene once before, but I damn sure didn't forget it. The sense of tension and unease in the battle, right down to Keitel's awkward handling of his free hand, is palpable.
I trained with a machete, bro, and pressed my free hand to my chest so as not to hurt. there is little beauty in this, but there is always a danger of injury. don't think about beauty. so I understand his hand
@Dannepihls That was a taunt. Sometimes an opponent is so wound up they can be made to flinch or launch a sloppy attack with a quick yell/grunt or a stomp of the foot to make a loud noise.
Cool stuff. William Hobbs who directed the fights was behind Rob Roy too wasn`t he? I can see it is in the same, realistic style as the later one, cool to see sword fightning done in proper way in film. I like the more over-the-top style as well.
Well, you've got to give him credit for knowing he was outclassed and trying to grab Keitel's blade. Should've had a little more determination, though.
Yes, after he was cut to the hand, he was evidently trying to obtain the mutual hit at least. But he actually did not get it, but actually he was not killed....
Absolutely! I train the Liechtenauer tradition and one thing I noticed is very similar is that ''absetzen'' is used nearly on the exact same way in Rapier fencing! :-D One reason more people should stop thinking of the medieval sword as brutish, primitive weapon - as if classical fencing (which the same people admit to be refined and elegant) appeared suddenly from nowhere instead of developing from earlier combat techniques! ;-)
the girl observing it first as a curious grownups' game with a sparkle of interest and genuine fun in her eyes, just to be swiftly changed into an expression of utter horror when the steel slipped through the flesh
Fencing is a shortened form of the word defend, which in turn comes from Old French defendre (12c.) "repulse, resist," and directly from Latin defendere "ward off, protect, guard," (from de- "from, away" + -fendere "to strike, push." ) "Fencing," therefore, is the use of the sword to defend oneself in personal combat. Olympic fencing has nothing to do with defending oneself with a sword. The emphasis is simply on scoring a touch; it bears only the most vestigial resemblance to an actual duel.
I was at a convention, where a Japanese instructor was demonstrating kenjitsu. Of swordsmanship, he explained that in a real fight, each stroke is made with the intent to kill one's adversary and end the fight. It's very direct.
Wait, did he just get a draw cut with a court sword? I didn't know they had nearly enough of an edge to do that. Overall, this is a great scene. I wanna see this movie very badly now. Oh, and I guess since this is a comment on a fencing video, I have to say something ignorant and disparaging about some form of fencing that I don't do, so I can look like I know what I'm talking about (Thanks for the idea Collin Clary). So . Thanks, Internet balls!
Why, you're quite welcome. Good observation. It depends on the weapon in question of course, but some smallswords actually did have a sharp edge for the last third or fourth of the blade. That being said, many did not. Fluted blades typically had no edge at all. (For obvious reasons, although I suppose it might be possible.) The weapons used here appear to have more of a flat blade, but to be honest I'm not entirely sure as there aren't any good close-ups of the swords in question. Anyway, if the blades used were in fact not fluted, then it would possible provided that the person failed to grab the blade tightly enough; allowing the weapon to slide and thus making a cut. If the blade was fluted however, I don't see how it could be possible unless he somehow cut his hand on the point; not particularly likely.
It looked like what happened was the one guy tried to grab his opponents sword, got it, and then the other guy just yanked it out of his hand, which sliced him up in the process.
Sparrowhawk Actual rapiers could slash as well as thrust, it's just that they were made to be optimal for thrusting so you wouldn't really slash as much
Interesting, it is very good to see there are more and more practitioners of the ancient european martial arts! Thanks for your thoughts, I remember them if by chance I begin to study Meyer and Rapier fencing ;-)
Obviously the left hand position is incorrect. It's only held in front of the body when it's holding a dagger or dirk; otherwise it is held away so that less of the torso is turned towards the opponent.
@SlimLukas I know the definition of the word "hussar"... but that doesn't make sense in what he said if he just meant that all hussars, or hussars in general, live for duels and well-know for trying to kill people in the duel. They are just another type of cavalry.
The very end would have been a perfect time to employ the Italian technique called Impasse de Soto, but of course they are using the french style, which I heard is pretty much the style used in all movies.
well, general de Lasalle, Napoleonic general of the hussars brigade used to say: He's poor hussar, who lives over 30. He died on Wagram, in 1809 being 34.
Man, this was over before it started. The guy with the braids was much more collected and calculating. I like how he baited his opponent into striking, knowing he could counter it, and just tiring him out so that he'd slip up.
Agree ... as a Foil man I think the Small Sword is just superb, it was said to be the final crowning achievement of the Rapier brought to conclusion. The modern fencing Foil being the training weapon of the French for the Small Sword/Court Sword. These blades were light, fast and absolutely deadly. Much of the Classical Small Sword Fencing we see today, is pretty sedate compared to what a real Small Sword duel looked like. Modern Foil is closer and this scene is far more true to reality also.
That's how Hussars wore their hair. It helps protect the sides of the neck from slashes. Warriors often wore their hair in braids until the Shako was adopted. At which point the hair became cropped short for a better fit. Plus short hair became fashionable around the turn of the 19th century with the French Revolution, presumably in response to cutting long hair for guillotines. Both men and women adopted shorter styles. Hussars and the like however kept the traditional Hussar look of pig tails.
I meant to clarify this in my original comment, however, I ran out of room. True, there's not a defined cutting edge..... however the last third or fourth of the blade near the point is sharper than the rest, to allow it to penetrate the body more easily. It's by no means a cutting edge, not even particularly sharp. (It'd be sharp enough to cut your hand if you were to slide it along it though.) I agree 100% on the part about disarming an opponent. Tendons and nerves would be severed as well.
Good question. It boils down to the difference between staged combat and actual combat. Balance, line, focus and distance are important in both, but for different reasons. Real combat is when each of the participants has deadly intentions deadly intentions toward the adversary. Stage combat is when each of the participants APPEARS to have deadly intentions toward the adversary. In other words, in real combat they are competitive adversaries, in real combat they are cooperative partners...(cont.)
Just offering my 2 cents as a former fencer, reader of "The Duel in European History", and Ridley Scott fan. This scene, and all of the duels in the film - seem historically accurate. There's no flash of modern fencing, it's raw, unnerving chaos. The Feraud character is calm because he has done this many times, unlike his opponent. The weapons seem correct for the period, the costumes and locations are right ... why the contention?
Steel is divided into hard and flexible. Hard steel is more tough, can be used to pierce mail, and takes a sharper edge. However, the harder the metal the more brittle it is and the very hardest steel would shatter after you block a strike. The flexible steel survives longer but is hard to thrust with and won't penetrate armor as easily. So for centuries, people tried to find the right balance of the two. The above are slim thrusting blades, not meant to hit mail. Flexing is advantageous.
(cont.) Examples: Intention: RC- Intentional misdirection. SC- Accurate communication Amplitude: RC- Minimalist, subtle. SC- Projected, clear to audience. Importance of distance: RC- High; hit your opponent. SC- High; miss your partner. Importance of line: RC- High; remain protected. SC- High; direct eye of audience. Pattern of action: RC- Intention, action, reaction. SC- Intention, reaction, action. Target: RC- Body, especially face, eyes, throat, heart. SC- Near body, NEVER face, eyes, throat.
Two different versions of the same art. One allows winning medals and experience gained in losing. The other allows the winner satisfaction and for the loser most often death. What could suck more?
Duke of Lorraine not sure about that but I believe the beginning of the film is 1800. So the hairstyle of the hussars carried over from the 1700’s. The hussars in the mid 1700’s made that hairstyle popular as it was more intimidating as they galloped toward their opponent
Cadenettes had more of a practical use, rather than an aesthetic one. The braids running down the face were made by tying one's hair around a small hard wood or metal stick. This was meant to stop saber cuts from landing directly on the face or neck, as a means of protection. It was mandatory for cavalry units to have long hair. Cadenettes on the sides of the face and a pony tail or braids on the back for protection against sabers landing against the back of the nape and back of the head.
The smallsword was not used in warfare, it was a duelling sword for private citizens. It was for fashion and personal defense, one on one duels. Not open combat.
Usually yes ... but he was trying for a disarm and failed, he did not grab the blade in the right place and he botched his approach - the blade was simply stripped through his hand with the results you see.
Basically, the technique used here is fiction. As the Fencer used to choreograph this movie admitted he knew nothing about historical fencing. So, in-movie, you can assume it to be some smallsword fencing style that wasn't historically documented. Regardless of it being inauthentic, the scene is shot in such a way that it's very believable, even to trained eyes.
Not a problem. : ) I just got done watching Rob Roy and it's interesting. I guess the broadsword Rob uses wasn't a weapon they would've had on that table, as it was anachronistic by that point in history -- and someone on here mentioned that the fighting techniques on display in this scene, here, are too "modern" for the period in which the story took place. I wonder how they thought and what weapons they used.
It is the cleanest wound, which can be done among any weapons: if you are lucky, the saber pierces the body without touching any organ or major artery, and in 3 weeks you are on your feet. (a bullet, following the same trajectory, due to its velocity- produces deadly wounds)
Sorry for the length and number of posts, here, but typically, in a real duel to the death, how long do you think a fight would actually last if two trained men were trying to kill each other?
Sorry for the late reply. That's true. What do you mean by "historical blades" though? Like, actual antique weapons as opposed to modern reproductions from sword cutlers such as Dennis Graves? If you're referring to that, then only one; a polish cavalry sabre that supposedly had seen service in WW2. If however you're talking about reproductions, (they're the same thing as the old weapons, just made more recently) I've handled quite a few, from rapiers to sabres to longswords, etc.
this movie description would be: "2 men fight like 4 duels against each other" and the actual description would be: "2 men fight like 4 duels against each other because one was grumpy one day"
The first deep cut must changed it all, I think you are getting a deep escape instinct and also a total confusion in your head which makes you not to control your mind and doings any more
+overdosisbringslife Not necessarily. The stab was more towards the side, so there is a POSSIBILITY that the blade didn't hit anything major. But even so, infection killed more men in war and accidents than weapons in those days, right up to after the Civil War when simple antibiotics were introduced. I saw a construction worker come into the ER once impaled on a piece of rebar. They cut him loose with a torch then transported him to the hospital by ambulance to have it surgically removed. The guy was fine after he recovered.
For those skilled souls who prefer the point over an edge. For me, the small sword makes for swifter and more intricate play than having an extra foot or foot and a half of blade. But I suppose if one wants to hack or jab at another from across the road then by all means use something else.
Point of fact, most Smallswords have a hollow-ground blade and have no defined cutting edge at all. Disarms involving enwrapment by the arm which puts the blade against the brachial and radial arteries would be suicide were this not true.
They did a really good job of making this look like a true duel. No long stretches of fighting, just long pauses followed by brief series of jabs, slashes and swipes.
Looks exactly like every duel I've ever seen
Before Mr Wolf cleans the back of a car, he cleans France.
Yes. Harvey Keitel, 17 years earlier :)
Welp, time to prepare him a coffee with lots of cream and lots of sugar
@@Hades8103 You must be an Oak man too
The hair style is called cadenettes it was used for aesthetic purposes and also neck protection. Cadenettes were kept down using a small pistol bullet at the bottom of each of them, it was also a very good means to deflect and even stop a saber blow as the hair got very thick and could deflect or at the very least reduce such a potent deadly blow. I read somewhere they also put in small wooden rods at the center of the braids to further increase protection .
thanks for your comment ...
Усатого противник поражает А я всегда за тех кто Побеждает ла ла ла ла ла ла ла ла ла ла ла ла ла ла ла ла ла ла ла ла ла ла ла ла ла 📍 Бергамо
D'abord appelée moustache, il s'agit d'une mèche de cheveux que l'élégant porte plus longs du côté gauche, retombant sur l'épaule. Elle prend le nom de cadenette quand, au début du xviie siècle, Honoré d'Albert, seigneur de Cadenet et frère du duc de Luynes, imagine de l'attacher avec un nœud de ruban orné d'un bijou.
Au xviiie siècle s'ajoute un nouveau sens. On appelle également cadenette une « boucle de cheveux qui pend à une perruque, et qu'on noue au milieu »[1]. Lorsque la perruque passe de mode à la Révolution, les jeunes élégants qui portent les cheveux longs se coiffent « à la cadenette » avec une tresse dans le dos, parfois relevée par un peigne. Le nom est également donné aux tresses que portent parfois les grenadiers et plus souvent les hussards, les corps qui ont conservé le plus longtemps la cadenette. Ce type de coiffure dans son usage militaire était censé protéger des coups de sabre.
Looks like dreadlocks you culture thief
"Give me my sword back!"
"NO! LEAVE IT IN LEAVE IT IN!"
"Fine!" *storms off in a huff*
@Johannes Liechtenauer Kind of the opposite of class. He was a superior swordsman, and they both knew it.
Lovely ഒബ്സർവേഷൻ
At the end he's all like "Gimme ma sword, ah fuck it, keep it"
Felipe Vasquez What I believe the Narrative was;(since I have studied Smallsword) is that he was likely going to twist the sword, which was common practice in these duels if the duelist really wanted their opponent to not recover, judging by Gabriel's character, I'd say that was likely the case, infact, if in the lungs, twisting it sealed their fate.
@@ChaoticNarrative Exactly, a guy pierced by epee doesn't lose his head and tries to save himself: he lets go of his own weapon and clutches the blade that impales him.... If you were late and your opponent had already twisted the sword, it basically meant death... In such a situation, the most you could do was try to at least stab your killer in response (which was also taken into account when entering the duel, as a last resort, a kind of consolation)...
Awesome movie! Great costumes, swordplay and a look at light cavalry from the Napoleonic era!
+Jazzman3121 the Hussars ,yea
+MrDarkastar Yes, Sir!!!
+Jazzman3121
It's basically a 19th century oil painting come to life. Amazing movie.
Terrifying scene. You can really see that one is a soldier, and that they both know he is infinitely superior and how it's going to end. Much more a murder than a duel.
So much more tension and psychology than those choreographed shit we see these days.
This was choreographed, they just put more time and effort into it then they do today.
Generalization
One of them is a duellist. He has fought many duels before; so he is calm under pressure. With the other one it is obvious it is his first duel (and last)
He doesn't die from the wound.
The beautiful part of this movie is this douchebag gets put in his place by the guy he had been relentlessly harassing, a guy that didn't even want to do any dueling and had great fear in doing so.
"Lieutentant Feraud has just skewered the Mayor of Strasbourg's nephew ; half a minute's work. I have just spent the last hour apologising to the Mayor on his behalf. Do you think you could convey to Lt. Feraud how much I should enjoy that?"
The lack of music was such a good choice
this scene is so intense it speaks for itself
back then they understood how to make movies, they were professionals
the simplicity of the sword hides the skill needed to wield it.
Did you study the blade?
When I first saw this movie I picked up on as others have said, that Keitel was clearly not worried and the superior fencer. What I didn't quite realize is how terrified the old man was. Watching this scene by itself, you can see his state of mind throughout the fight... at first he knows he is probably going to die and is just trying to keep Keitel desperately at arm's length. Then he gets increasingly desperate. It is only after getting cut (with triangular smallsword blades, probably a tip cut, they don't really have sharp edges) that he in a rage rushes Keitel and is skewered. One has to wonder if he did so as a reaction in anger to being cut, or because he realized upon being cut it was better to get it over with. A wonderfully done performance and very probably an accurate portrayal of how most regular folks would feel if they ever had to fight a duel (namely scared as heck).
The thing is, duels back then where fought not to death but first blood- meaning that the older man would be able to call it then and there when his hand was cut, say he can't continue, and his 'honour' would still be intact as he fought the duel and lost fairly. Indeed, he doesn't even die in the film but is just severely wounded- similarly when D'hubert is wounded in the second duel and doesn't continue, or the third when both are taken out of the fight by their seconds as they could barely stand and it had descended into a brawl.
Looking at how duels where conducted, it's obvious that a; seldom did they result in death and b; the goal of the seconds was to try and resolve the dispute as quickly as possible between the opponents, preferably without a duel even being fought. Many stories about people challenging somebody to duel in a drunken rage, and then the morning after recanting and apologizing when faced with the sober reality (also why duels where fought at dawn, both to evade authorities and give aggrieved parties time to think and reconsider).
@@gregoryborton6598 In Napoleonic times, duels to the firts blood did not occuur often... It was rather "a outrance"
Perhaps after being cut the inferior fencer attacked furiously, as he was thinking: "As I am going to run through the body anyway, it's better to be stabbed while stabbing my opponent, to at least sell my life costly"
I’m so glad I discovered this movie.
this was a very good film. saw it once in the early 1990s and finally got to see it again recently.
I can't provide any sources atm, but I've seen old fighting manuscripts where the off-hand was held like that. It's basically there to catch of slap the incoming blade aside, which was possible, since rapiers had no edge to speak of. Even some messer/dussack fighting manuals have this position in them, the hand is held closer to the opponent to quickly enter grappling.
The single most intense swordplay movie I have ever seen.
If you don’t know, this movie has:
-fencing duel, saber duel in close quarters, fencing duel with more even match, saber duel, sabers on horseback, and then double pistols in the woods.
There’s also some romance stuff but they pave the movie well enough so you’re always anticipating the next duel. Each one is memorable for different reasons.
To those of you who actually practice historical fencing, I recently watched an instructional video on period technique. The instructor made a simple off-hand comment that really stuck with me. Something to the effect that if you really want to focus your mind on your technique and momentarily get a feel for what it was really like to be in a life or death scenario, have your opponent take the protective tip off his sword (but instruct him not to actually land a hit on you). Having that menacing point right in your face brings a whole new psychological element to the game. It motivates you to be less sloppy and risky. Not something to do often, or for more than a few passes, for sure.
I bring that up because it must be what the poor fellow in this duel would have felt. You can see the terror one must feel, of having a superior fencer's weapon coming at you.
It's true, as hard as we try, psychologically we are still people who live in a world absent of people using real swords to really try to kill / maim each other. There's a big different between really really not wanting to get hit because...you don't want a touch against you and lose the "bout" and really really not wanting to get hit because "holy shit there is a sharp piece of metal coming at me and I'll probably die if it hits me". As to your suggestion, I think it'd be an interesting insight, but damn...it'd have to be my coach or someone I seriously trust. I own a sharp hand and a half and when I first unsheathed the thing, this sense of awe / fear went through me. In fact, I looked up at my wife and stupidly said "It's a sword...". The tip on it is *nasty* pointy, I can imagine if that thing were directed at me I'd really want to get my shit together.
That's terrifying
"Superior fencer's technique" Not weapon.
A sword is only deadly in the hand of one with experience.
@@Prof.Pwnalot A sword or knife is deadly in the hands of absolutely anyone.
@@sparrowhawk81 i unsarcastically say this, but if i lived in the USA, i'd be afraid every day of my life, fucking SMGs and ARs and handguns going off at any time in any place, no way to counter them unless you're packing yourself and don't get hit first
The best duel in this movie, though, is the one at the very end. "You will conduct yourself as a dead man".
My favourite film, by my favourite director, love it...👌
I love Period movies. And this one shows how miserable and depressing life was at that time.
The cobbled streets with the filth running down the open drain in derelict districts where Harvey and Keith walk down during their first encounter.
The temporary barracks where the soldiers are stationed is decrepit and rain seeps thru the roof.
Their encounter during the Prussian war in the cold bleak winter with the frozen soldiers among them...
A great Tale in a true gritty depiction of the times.
I liked that the "reality feeling" was unusually strong, usually there is one bling-hero and endless flashy show. And scenery looked like from some old painting - exceptionally nice.
@Jonzen77 Overall the duels in this film are the most realistic and best ones in cinema history. No ridiculous backflipping over tables, no flashly moves or 'twirly-whirly' fighting; just two men trying to kill each other with proper technique.
I liked this scene. First, you could see from the start who was going to win, just by studying the combatants' body language. Notice how relaxed Harvey Keitel's stance was throughout. This was no duel, it was an execution.
not really , every duel has their hasard
Oddly enough, Harvey Keitel had *_zero_* experience with fencing when he was cast in this role. The fact that he didn't actually know what he was doing actually made it more believable when you consider that his character was an "upstart" who had a grudge against the aristocracy (like D'Hubert) who had supposedly been trained for this sort of thing all their lives.
I love this film. I read the short story in high school and thought this would be a good movie. Little did I know it was made when I was 7.
1:35 "Goddamnit! I was going for a headshot"
with these braids and mustaches he looks like young Panoramix
There was a practical reason for those braids.
Jim James I know, but still :)
As much as I love this duel, I can't ignore how much at the end it's clear he's holding the sword through his shirt xD.
That could have been doe better, but whaddya want for a movie with a budget of less than a million $, even in 1977?
We should settle modern fights this way, "Bring Back Duelling " !!!
Robert Walters and now that I think about it, why revert to combat knives if swords are a much more effective military sidearm? Sure they’re easier to carry than swords but a long reach is always a bonus. Plus dueling is more of a “may the better man win” situation than two people with a gun, in which case is a “I hate you so you have to die” situation.
Vaar Köbke fair enough. I still think it’s superior to a knife but I see your point.
Vaar Köbke I mean superior as a sidearm as opposed to a combat knife
Vaar Köbke bladed, sidearm, opposed to a knife. We’re getting off-topic.
Vaar Köbke ok, that being said, 1. I already agreed with you, even though 2. A sword is still a superior alternative to a knife in terms of effectiveness as a sidearm
I've only seen this scene once before, but I damn sure didn't forget it. The sense of tension and unease in the battle, right down to Keitel's awkward handling of his free hand, is palpable.
I trained with a machete, bro, and pressed my free hand to my chest so as not to hurt. there is little beauty in this, but there is always a danger of injury. don't think about beauty. so I understand his hand
great movie
@Dannepihls That was a taunt. Sometimes an opponent is so wound up they can be made to flinch or launch a sloppy attack with a quick yell/grunt or a stomp of the foot to make a loud noise.
that "fine keep the sword" motion he does at the end always cracks me up
Cool stuff. William Hobbs who directed the fights was behind Rob Roy too wasn`t he? I can see it is in the same, realistic style as the later one, cool to see sword fightning done in proper way in film. I like the more over-the-top style as well.
I love this film
Well, you've got to give him credit for knowing he was outclassed and trying to grab Keitel's blade. Should've had a little more determination, though.
Yes, after he was cut to the hand, he was evidently trying to obtain the mutual hit at least. But he actually did not get it, but actually he was not killed....
Absolutely! I train the Liechtenauer tradition and one thing I noticed is very similar is that ''absetzen'' is used nearly on the exact same way in Rapier fencing! :-D
One reason more people should stop thinking of the medieval sword as brutish, primitive weapon - as if classical fencing (which the same people admit to be refined and elegant) appeared suddenly from nowhere instead of developing from earlier combat techniques! ;-)
the girl observing it first as a curious grownups' game with a sparkle of interest and genuine fun in her eyes, just to be swiftly changed into an expression of utter horror when the steel slipped through the flesh
The Wolf before he met Marcellus, LOL! Cool as he ever was!
The Wolf?
Bryan Wheelock Kitel's character in Pulp Fiction
I love that "bon appetit!" hand gesture he makes after stabbing the guy.
Fencing is a shortened form of the word defend, which in turn comes from Old French defendre (12c.) "repulse, resist," and directly from Latin defendere "ward off, protect, guard," (from de- "from, away" + -fendere "to strike, push." ) "Fencing," therefore, is the use of the sword to defend oneself in personal combat.
Olympic fencing has nothing to do with defending oneself with a sword. The emphasis is simply on scoring a touch; it bears only the most vestigial resemblance to an actual duel.
this movie is awesome
I was at a convention, where a Japanese instructor was demonstrating kenjitsu. Of swordsmanship, he explained that in a real fight, each stroke is made with the intent to kill one's adversary and end the fight. It's very direct.
I love Keitel's gesture at the end: "Why do I even bother..?"
Wait, did he just get a draw cut with a court sword? I didn't know they had nearly enough of an edge to do that. Overall, this is a great scene. I wanna see this movie very badly now.
Oh, and I guess since this is a comment on a fencing video, I have to say something ignorant and disparaging about some form of fencing that I don't do, so I can look like I know what I'm talking about (Thanks for the idea Collin Clary). So . Thanks, Internet balls!
Why, you're quite welcome.
Good observation.
It depends on the weapon in question of course, but some smallswords actually did have a sharp edge for the last third or fourth of the blade. That being said, many did not. Fluted blades typically had no edge at all. (For obvious reasons, although I suppose it might be possible.) The weapons used here appear to have more of a flat blade, but to be honest I'm not entirely sure as there aren't any good close-ups of the swords in question.
Anyway, if the blades used were in fact not fluted, then it would possible provided that the person failed to grab the blade tightly enough; allowing the weapon to slide and thus making a cut. If the blade was fluted however, I don't see how it could be possible unless he somehow cut his hand on the point; not particularly likely.
It looked like what happened was the one guy tried to grab his opponents sword, got it, and then the other guy just yanked it out of his hand, which sliced him up in the process.
Graidon Mabson Good call.
i would say it was the tip of the blade, even a pin head can leave a nasty scratch if it was pulled across roughly,
Sparrowhawk Actual rapiers could slash as well as thrust, it's just that they were made to be optimal for thrusting so you wouldn't really slash as much
best movie!
Interesting, it is very good to see there are more and more practitioners of the ancient european martial arts! Thanks for your thoughts, I remember them if by chance I begin to study Meyer and Rapier fencing ;-)
One of the better movies made.
That was a regulatory hair style for hussars in the time period. It eventually died out but I'm glad Mr Scott kept this for historical accuracy.
Obviously the left hand position is incorrect. It's only held in front of the body when it's holding a dagger or dirk; otherwise it is held away so that less of the torso is turned towards the opponent.
this is the best sword fighting scene I have ever seen in a movie. This is how I would imagine a real fight happen.
Masterpiece...
@LokitheCajun By "the Hussar character", do you mean the guy with long hair ?
Sounds like Dolohov in "War and Peace" for me :O
@Testacabeza
pistols or machine guns?
The way the dude got pissed! His facial expression was like; FUCK THE DUDE SKEWERED HIMSELF ON MY BLADE!!
@MariusThePaladin In ordinary duels that's true, but the Hussar character lives for duels and is known for trying to kill his opponents.
@SlimLukas I know the definition of the word "hussar"... but that doesn't make sense in what he said if he just meant that all hussars, or hussars in general, live for duels and well-know for trying to kill people in the duel. They are just another type of cavalry.
Watched this film first run in our local cinema one year after learning Olympic sabre.
Great film with a great ending
The very end would have been a perfect time to employ the Italian technique called Impasse de Soto, but of course they are using the french style, which I heard is pretty much the style used in all movies.
well, general de Lasalle, Napoleonic general of the hussars brigade used to say: He's poor hussar, who lives over 30. He died on Wagram, in 1809 being 34.
Man, this was over before it started. The guy with the braids was much more collected and calculating. I like how he baited his opponent into striking, knowing he could counter it, and just tiring him out so that he'd slip up.
Those are trousers used on campaign. They were worn OVER the usual tight breeches used for dress and parade.
Foreshadowed what Ridley Scott was capable of putting on fim.
@USMarineRifleman0311 I was thinking more of saber-tooth tigers swinged by their tails.
Agree ... as a Foil man I think the Small Sword is just superb, it was said to be the final crowning achievement of the Rapier brought to conclusion. The modern fencing Foil being the training weapon of the French for the Small Sword/Court Sword. These blades were light, fast and absolutely deadly. Much of the Classical Small Sword Fencing we see today, is pretty sedate compared to what a real Small Sword duel looked like. Modern Foil is closer and this scene is far more true to reality also.
You sound like the sort of guy who was in an acapella group at uni and imagines himself high class.
@@johnmartin650 You sound like a guy who used to get bullied by people in acapella groups at Uni, who is insecure about their own class. Bwahahaga
@@thevelointhevale1132 You think acapella group types bully people? I think you may be confused.
@@johnmartin650 In your case they do ... ahahaha
@@thevelointhevale1132 Thanks for proving my point.
That's how Hussars wore their hair. It helps protect the sides of the neck from slashes. Warriors often wore their hair in braids until the Shako was adopted. At which point the hair became cropped short for a better fit. Plus short hair became fashionable around the turn of the 19th century with the French Revolution, presumably in response to cutting long hair for guillotines. Both men and women adopted shorter styles. Hussars and the like however kept the traditional Hussar look of pig tails.
En excellent movie
I meant to clarify this in my original comment, however, I ran out of room. True, there's not a defined cutting edge..... however the last third or fourth of the blade near the point is sharper than the rest, to allow it to penetrate the body more easily. It's by no means a cutting edge, not even particularly sharp. (It'd be sharp enough to cut your hand if you were to slide it along it though.)
I agree 100% on the part about disarming an opponent. Tendons and nerves would be severed as well.
The way the stand, tilting their heads and upper bodies, is it to see the opponent's rapier more clearly because it's so thin?
Good question.
It boils down to the difference between staged combat and actual combat. Balance, line, focus and distance are important in both, but for different reasons. Real combat is when each of the participants has deadly intentions deadly intentions toward the adversary. Stage combat is when each of the participants APPEARS to have deadly intentions toward the adversary. In other words, in real combat they are competitive adversaries, in real combat they are cooperative partners...(cont.)
Just offering my 2 cents as a former fencer, reader of "The Duel in European History", and Ridley Scott fan. This scene, and all of the duels in the film - seem historically accurate. There's no flash of modern fencing, it's raw, unnerving chaos. The Feraud character is calm because he has done this many times, unlike his opponent. The weapons seem correct for the period, the costumes and locations are right ... why the contention?
how can i see the entire movie on you tube? tks
Love it to bits
The weapons and techniques used are actually appropriate, in both Rob Roy and the scene above.
Steel is divided into hard and flexible. Hard steel is more tough, can be used to pierce mail, and takes a sharper edge. However, the harder the metal the more brittle it is and the very hardest steel would shatter after you block a strike. The flexible steel survives longer but is hard to thrust with and won't penetrate armor as easily. So for centuries, people tried to find the right balance of the two. The above are slim thrusting blades, not meant to hit mail. Flexing is advantageous.
(cont.) Examples:
Intention: RC- Intentional misdirection. SC- Accurate communication
Amplitude: RC- Minimalist, subtle. SC- Projected, clear to audience.
Importance of distance: RC- High; hit your opponent. SC- High; miss your partner.
Importance of line: RC- High; remain protected. SC- High; direct eye of audience.
Pattern of action: RC- Intention, action, reaction. SC- Intention, reaction, action.
Target: RC- Body, especially face, eyes, throat, heart. SC- Near body, NEVER face, eyes, throat.
Colin, i say you are right!
Two different versions of the same art. One allows winning medals and experience gained in losing. The other allows the winner satisfaction and for the loser most often death. What could suck more?
Ridley Fuckin Scott, y'all.... soon he'd give us Alien, and Harvey, fresh from that NYC stoop as "Sport"---- amazing.....
A fight over who has the worst haircut?
+XelPixels the braids for the guy who wins the duel were believed to protect the neck from sabre strikes, at this time.
whatever the fight is over, you, my friend, win "most petty overall observation:..salud...et carter
Duke of Lorraine not sure about that but I believe the beginning of the film is 1800. So the hairstyle of the hussars carried over from the 1700’s. The hussars in the mid 1700’s made that hairstyle popular as it was more intimidating as they galloped toward their opponent
I personally like the Hussar Braids.
Cadenettes had more of a practical use, rather than an aesthetic one. The braids running down the face were made by tying one's hair around a small hard wood or metal stick. This was meant to stop saber cuts from landing directly on the face or neck, as a means of protection. It was mandatory for cavalry units to have long hair. Cadenettes on the sides of the face and a pony tail or braids on the back for protection against sabers landing against the back of the nape and back of the head.
The smallsword was not used in warfare, it was a duelling sword for private citizens. It was for fashion and personal defense, one on one duels. Not open combat.
Usually yes ... but he was trying for a disarm and failed, he did not grab the blade in the right place and he botched his approach - the blade was simply stripped through his hand with the results you see.
I wonder if there was an original source, seems every fencing coach/instructor I have met describes Olympic fencing exactly like that.
Would you argue that the fencing done by the two men in this video is the real stuff, or just "movie swordplay"?
0:53 reminds me of the way Max Schmelling boxed against Joe Louis.
Sword experts can shed light on authenticity of sword play here?
Check out the Scholagladiatoria channel
Basically, the technique used here is fiction. As the Fencer used to choreograph this movie admitted he knew nothing about historical fencing. So, in-movie, you can assume it to be some smallsword fencing style that wasn't historically documented. Regardless of it being inauthentic, the scene is shot in such a way that it's very believable, even to trained eyes.
Not a problem. : ) I just got done watching Rob Roy and it's interesting. I guess the broadsword Rob uses wasn't a weapon they would've had on that table, as it was anachronistic by that point in history -- and someone on here mentioned that the fighting techniques on display in this scene, here, are too "modern" for the period in which the story took place. I wonder how they thought and what weapons they used.
Watching this clip out of context, I wouldn't have guessed the stabbed man survives
It is the cleanest wound, which can be done among any weapons: if you are lucky, the saber pierces the body without touching any organ or major artery, and in 3 weeks you are on your feet. (a bullet, following the same trajectory, due to its velocity- produces deadly wounds)
Sorry for the length and number of posts, here, but typically, in a real duel to the death, how long do you think a fight would actually last if two trained men were trying to kill each other?
Sorry for the late reply.
That's true.
What do you mean by "historical blades" though? Like, actual antique weapons as opposed to modern reproductions from sword cutlers such as Dennis Graves? If you're referring to that, then only one; a polish cavalry sabre that supposedly had seen service in WW2. If however you're talking about reproductions, (they're the same thing as the old weapons, just made more recently) I've handled quite a few, from rapiers to sabres to longswords, etc.
@LokitheCajun They're not trying to kill each other... they're dueling.
this movie description would be: "2 men fight like 4 duels against each other" and the actual description would be: "2 men fight like 4 duels against each other because one was grumpy one day"
The first deep cut must changed it all, I think you are getting a deep escape instinct and also a total confusion in your head which makes you not to control your mind and doings any more
Rumors have it as they improvised some cars antenna as swords for safety purposes, no one of the actors ever fought with a saber.
Keep the change.
That could be a non fatal wound, judging from the location. If they could keep it clean so it doesn't get infected he might have a chance.
He stabbed him right through his body.....
There has to be some kind of damage to his intestines.
+overdosisbringslife Not necessarily. The stab was more towards the side, so there is a POSSIBILITY that the blade didn't hit anything major. But even so, infection killed more men in war and accidents than weapons in those days, right up to after the Civil War when simple antibiotics were introduced. I saw a construction worker come into the ER once impaled on a piece of rebar. They cut him loose with a torch then transported him to the hospital by ambulance to have it surgically removed. The guy was fine after he recovered.
Lol he's dead in minutes, you mean.
You'd be surprised how difficult it is to puncture organs with a stab. Organs tend to move to the side.
+Lincoln MacKay And they are VERY slippery!
The way Harvey Keitel throws his hands in air when he can't pull his sword out 😂
For those skilled souls who prefer the point over an edge. For me, the small sword makes for swifter and more intricate play than having an extra foot or foot and a half of blade. But I suppose if one wants to hack or jab at another from across the road then by all means use something else.
That house.
A minecraft player surely built it.
Point of fact, most Smallswords have a hollow-ground blade and have no defined cutting edge at all. Disarms involving enwrapment by the arm which puts the blade against the brachial and radial arteries would be suicide were this not true.