Some would even say that immersion distracts from your performance. I have a higher end rig and people with much less expensive equipment drive circles around me in iRacing frequently. However having a higher end rig means that when I have visitors over and put them in VR that they leave going WOW! It's been a lot of fun when we throw parties. Of course now that I have a racing shell seat which I love, a lot of my friends won't fit :(
@@markkovalcson7243 I am one of those people too that gets a lot of joy out of letting friends play on the rig, they are always amazed by the feel of the wheel and pedals. It is great to see.
Just look at the guy who wins constantly iRacing world championship and gets the big check. He got a rig and 13yo wheel. A Rig helps a ton cause you always sit in same position but the rest depents on good skill(as Chris@Kek say), much driving routine and a a proper FOV. But Physical health helps too, so buy a bench and wheight instead of an annual new wheel, guys :) But need to adress iRacing got some kind of P2W and very addictive price model. That´s why I love racing in Sim Racing System.
I use a Socratic method to answer this question. Does better gear make sim racing more immersive? Yes Can more immersive mean more enjoyable? Yes Are we likely to spend more time doing things we enjoy? Yes Does more time or practice in sim racing make us faster? Yes So better gear COULD make you faster. #socrates
What is this immersion you people talkin about? Is that feeling I get seated on a office chair, driving with a toy wheel and looking at the screen my mind goes blank imagining myself on a race car? 🤔 (well at least until I start to think about monkeys or whatever)...
Those that complain about more expensive equipment being pay-to-win are usually the ones who can’t keep their cars on track begin with. The fastest drivers I’ve raced have more often than not been on affordable entry level wheels (mainly logitech G series wheels and pedals.) Better equipment may help drivers be a little more consistent but in the end the speed always comes back to the person holding the wheel.
GhostOfAkina Takumi also didn’t know the course, where as Kyoichi had studied it heavily to prep for his race against Ryosuke. I doubt Kyoichi would have won had the race taken place on Akina.
@GameLord 23 I have my wheel clamped to an IKEA table so i put the legs of the table in shoes and put dumbells on top to keep it from sliding all over the room.
@Player 23 not sure i can beat it but i do like talking about my "rig" :D I sit on a bunch of pillows on the floor leaning my back against a fatboy thats up against a wall. My g29 is on a piece of wood (with a couple weights on it so it doesnt move around every other corner) that lies on two moving boxes. Pedals on the floor with a couple of water boxes behind them to stop them from sliding. Also my eye level is lower than the top of my wheel :D Still get on pretty well tho :D
DD wheels and loadcell pedals don't make you faster but: - They allow you to learn and improve faster, and make learning less frustrating - They make you more consistent - They require less mental effort to drive because you can feel more (less reliance on vision) - They make driving more fun - All of this is more true for difficult open-wheel formula cars, and less for GT cars.
@@TheHidalgo99 @TheHidalgo99 Because they are driven closer to the limit, with higher forces, where it's absolutely important that you feel a slide before you die, or lose a lot of time. With GT cars you can generally slide more and make more mistakes without spinning or losing time. IMHO :)
I loved my G29 and since moving to a direct drive wheel my lap times are still similar however the enjoyment and immersion using a direct drive make the experience a better one.
you might aswell compare it to guitars. give jimmy hendrix a fender stratocaster and a walmart guitar and he is going to play amazing music on both. sure the cheap guitar might sound worse and lack in quality, both guitars are able to produce sound. same as with sim racing equipment
Great example. Having played for 25 years, and done a bit of teaching, I can confirm that a quality guitar in inexperienced hands sounds like garbage :)
@@ChrisHaye on the other hand, if you gave Max V/Lando Norris a shitty wheel and asked them to put in the same times on iracing as they do with leo bodnar/osw, do you think it would be anywhere near as close?
My crappy laptop stand which i had my g29 mounted on fell apart during a race recently so i was forced to get something to replace it. I decided on a wheel stand pro as i didn't want anything larger. Looking at it, i thought it would wobble a bit but i could live with that as anything would be better than what i had. Wrong! The thing is rock solid. What a difference. I'm impressed!
Malcom McLeod my rig is unstable lmao i put my steering wheel on the same thing that my mom uses to iron clothes... pedals are just stood on the floor which is annoying because they slide all over the place
There's plenty of aliens using g25s/pedals. All the higher end stuff, DD, pedal sets, etc increases immersion. I've been at this for about 12 years. Started with g25, then TM t500rs, then TM TS-PC racer, Fanatec v3 pedals, 2.5 SQ shifter and handbrake and just got a DD1. I started sim racing around the age of 45 so I took my time seeing if I wanted to invest more. I'm really not any faster but immersion is great! Pedals seem to be the best bang for performance increase. Practice, practice, practice and maximizing setup to your personal style. Good luck to all. Have fun with whatever you have. Cheers! See you on the tarmac!
personally use a madcatz xbox 360 wheel for sim racing as i didnt want to do a major investment for something i wasnt too sure how id like, and honestly only thing i have an issue with it is no clutch so have to use autoblip, no ffb, and driver support is non existent, paid $30 for it and running about mid pack in the bmw m4 and ferarri 488 gt3 class D in iracing, street stocks R always top 5, so it does me well enough to stay competitive so id say the wheel doesnt really matter its all based on what you prefer
Brilliant video Chris. Can very much agree that more expensive equipment doesn't necessarily equal faster lap times, although I would say that more expensive pedal sets with load cells is likely to see the bigger performance gain in comparison to a wheel. There's a lot more accuracy and fidelity to be found with pedals with load cells and springs behind the throttle that yield greater control and could therefore lead to more consistent driving. I know for sure that my initial throttle application is usually too hard due to my throttle pedal on the T3PA Pro pedals not having any or very little resistance, so having something higher end would probably improve that area and help me drive off corners better and more reliably. Still, great video and keep up the awesome content!
Some people will be aliens no matter what gear you give them, will even beat you with a game pad.. For me it's all about immersion and doing what I love, for fun.
I didn't think there was much that could be more comforting and friendly than your voice, then I saw your face haha. Really enjoying all your video's during the lockdown, I was really lucky I picked a wheel up just in time and even luckier to have found your channel, great videos and great advice, stay safe everyone.
Video idea: peripheral awareness on a single monitor. I personally struggle with it, and seeing you race on a single monitor as well, it would be interesting to hear how you deal with it. Cheers!
Absolutely brilliant videos! I love how genuine, level-headed and sensible you are answering this sort of questions. Thank you for your efforts and dedication! Can't but recommend your channel
I have a g29 too. Wheel is OK (long as you know how to setup FFB correctly), but the shifter is pretty bad and g29 needs a load cell brake. . I drive mainly stick shift cars, Next upgrade will be a TH8a then a load cell kit (which I'll have to import) And FYI : (for me even entry level is expensive) Everything locally is 2x US$ price tag, some ppl its even more , so a g29 here is what US/EU ppl would pay for mid level stuff. I can't even buy high level stuff here(or most mid level). (for example Fanatech is not even sold here, limited to logitech and thrustmaster locally, everything else is a personal import)
Stix_09 careful with the load cell mod of the g29 pedal set. The g29 has a software curve to account for the rubber bump stop where the g25 and g27 software doesn’t. Don’t know how much it’ll effect driving, but it might make things funky
Great video mate, but if you're gonna upload with the 21:9 "cinematic" aspect ratio, you should really make sure it's true 21:9, not just 16:9 with black bars. For those of us with 18:9 phones (which are increasingly common) or 21:9 monitors, we end up just getting black bars all round the video, which really ruins the "cinematic" effect
Since getting a direct drive wheel, my iRacing safety rating has shot up. I catch almost all the slides in races. I’ll still spin out in practice when I’m pushing for a faster lap, but that’s expected
There can be few sim racers who start off their hobby by spending 2k on equipment. The vast majority of us start with a logitech or thrustmaster. By the time someone decides to invest in a DD and loadcell pedals, chances are they already have two or more years experience and have cemented a new passion for hardware and software. So while higher end equipment may not make you faster, there is a good chance that faster drivers use high end equipment. QED
For someone who's used a variety of wheels and competing at different levels as well I can say I'm most confident with my direct drive, I'm however aware that this wouldn't be relevant or matter unless I'd learnt how to drive correctly. Doesn't matter what you're using if you don't know the correct technique. A direct drive can then give you the added feel. But even on a really competitive competition I'm not sure it matters too much - at that point the drivers put in so much practise that they learn the limit which means the feeling of the wheel is less important.
A takeaway from other videos like this - and something that sounds reasonable to me - is that high-end gear doesn't make you faster. But it allows you to become fast quicker. It helps with the learning curve and consistency, and helps pick up other cars etc faster due to the better feedback. And of course as a side effect, leads to more practice time since you want to use that shiny new gear you just bought a lot more. I'll be able to experience that for myself before long, I'm definitely a super casual racer on a TMX pro, but will treat myself to a DD1 at the end of the year because of a successful year for me. I dont get to drive often, but when I do, I love it, so this'll certainly drive that enjoyment up by a big margin, and most likely lead to me just making more time during my time off to sit down and race.
I explain to my gamer friends that, while I am good at pretty much all racing games, I like sim racing, and I try to relay to them the differences. One thing I mention is the difference in wheels, explaining that I want a direct drive and (if I'm lucky) motion sim setup for deeper immersion into the sim, not because it will make me faster, but because it gives a greater sense of realism. A simulation of driving is NOT pay to win. It's skill to win. You pay more for the experience, not the lap times.
I’m someone whose progressed from a Thrustmaster which doesn’t have FFB to a g29, t300 and now a Direct drive with pedals comparable to Heusinkveld. Of course it’s down to personal preference, but i think that if the wheel base has decent force feedback, the pedals are the most important to invest in. Controlling traction and trail braking is very very challenging with a pedal set that weighs pretty much nothing at all. I think that it’s worth investing in a solid set of pedals and spending slightly less on the wheel base. But that’s down to personal preference. Sim Racing isn’t pay for win directly, but someone using a non-FFB system with those elastic systems is going to have a much harder time being fast compared to someone with a good wheel and pedal set, even if it’s not a top of the line DD
I have a sim racing school and a lot of students using Fanatecs, DD, Heusinkveld and they're slow at track. BUT, to very fast guys, specially at iRacing, you can win 0.100 to 0.300 with a Fanatec wheel or pedal, with a better rear-car control, using different setup values, like more stiffness at rear.
Nailed it Chris. One other point; with the move from a Fanatec CSW to an OSW wheel the feedback was so much more detailed it tired me out for a while. At first I was slower through sensory overload I think! Eventually I was no faster but less errors. The rest of the benefits for me.... -It's more immersive -Never have to even think about an upgrade -Never wear out
In real racing success is dependent and divided into 70% car - 30% driver. In sim racing, it's obviously pretty much all driver...Maybe 95% driver and 5% equipment.
@@ChrisHaye Great video btw Chris. The one thing you only touched on and didn't really talk about is consistency. I am pretty sure that if you did 30-40 laps with each setup, your total race time would have been a couple of seconds slower on the cheaper setup. One lap the difference like you said, is minimum (only 1 tenth), but obviously over 30 laps that might well be 3 seconds.
@@m.r.2718 Maybe in F1 where the margins are so tight...but everywhere else the driver skill has WAY more to do with success than the car. In sim racing, even pros can get caught up in equipment that is actively hindering them.
Hey Chris, another great vid, to help someone starting out do you think Logitech g25/27/920 with fanatic load cell, best bang for buck start? I prev used T300, then csl elite, then dfgt while waiting for simucube 2 pro to arrive, I was impressed with the Logitech feel despite it being the cheapest wheel I used. Hope this helps more people get into the racing.
I have a G29, Chris. It seems to me the direct drive allows you to identify a loss of traction quicker and correct potential mistakes. If I get stupid with my gas foot, I’m not able to feel it right away. Just my take on it. Thanks for the vid!
The G29 looked like it was spot on with the in-game steering wheel in terms of positioning. Turning it 90 degrees showed 90 degrees on screen, whereas the more expensive one which you said required smaller inputs, did not match what the in-game wheel angle was. I'll take the G29 every time since I don't really care for competition racing, just for fun and a little immersion.
With such a "little" (as people would say, I'm not trying to be rude) audience, your videos are well-edited and have good visuals, not to mention your commentary is amazing. I reckon you need a lot more subscribers and views, and I believe you will get that.
Great video and oh so true, I'm 61 and just upgraded my 8+ year old T500 to a Accuforce Pro V2 DD wheel, yes I like it, the fidelity is great, does it make me faster, not by a long shot, I just feel more of what's going on with the DD wheel. I would have to say the only and I do mean ONLY expense I have done in the many years of sim racing that has made me faster is buying a Load Cell mod for my T500 pedals (Now known as T3PA-Pro), I bought a Bodin beam style load cell mod, this thing is amazing, I can brake later (less fear of lock up) thus being able to get back on the gas sooner. Also VR has helped, the sense of distance and speed is enhanced in VR thus making it a easier to hit your apex just right. And as you mentioned, so many Aliens are using G25, G27, G29 and some even still using a DFGT, it's not the gear, it's the level of talent.
Having done the whole trip step by step,most upgrades can make you a little bit more consistent,not faster. I'll explain: Loadcell brake was mentioned in the video,but most people dont even set their brakes correctly. DDWheel helps you feel the limit,so in changing conditions maybe you will adapt faster. And the biggest improvement i got was from VR,i could learn tracks WAY faster,and after i find the "faster" line,i could hit it almost everytime. So,no,as far as fastest lap goes,it wont make you faster,but in race conditions i think better equipment helps.
There is a guy currently competing in VEC who used a pad for many years and was super quick. He’s now on a wheel and uses NO FORCE FEEDBACK. At the same time, the real time comes from your brake pedal. A better brake pedal will give you half a tenth maximum but that’s about it. But spending two grand on a high end rig won’t make you a better driver in the same way that shelling out five grand on a custom shop Gibson Les Paul will make you a better guitar player. But hey, it’s your money 🤷🏻♂️
After changing from a G27 to a T300 the first thing i noticed was that i was more consistent, i was roughly 1 second slower at the start but i spun only 1/3 times compared to the G27, it was easier to drive at the limit and easier to correct mistakes and most importantly: More fun.
I think there's something in the consistency argument. I found the same myself. I think it comes from being a bit less likely to be 'caught out' by something you don't feel in lesser force feedback.
After this i’m really wondering how something like a csl elite compares. Like, is it more on the g29 side, where you still have to use your eyes more, or more in line with the dd?
Honestly, I was thinking that either of the Fanatec belt drive wheels are a pretty great compromise. The FFB is much more detailed and responsive than the Logitechs, but without the direct drive costs. Obviously it's not on the same level as a DD setup, but I do think that's where the law of diminishing returns starts to set in.
The speed of rotation, smoothness and torque of the fanatec are all better on the fanatec, but it better be, at 3-4x the price tag. Haha. Direct drive is 6x the price tag of g29. The g29 is a great wheel!
Of course it isn’t pay to win, I use old Logitech MOMO and I have no problem being competitive and win from time to time, sure those expensive things sometimes makes some things easier like breaking and being more consistent, But if somebody says he is slow because of lack of proper equipment then either he practice to little to gain that extra time, or his technique simply lacks, no offence but that’s the truth, go there and get the most out of you it’s surely in there somewhere but you need to find it first
I've upgraded from Logitech g27 on a kitchen table single monitor to a fanatec 2.5 and csl elite pedals, then csl load cell pedals and gt omega rig, then a p1x, 27“ triple screens, vr, simcube 2 pro, heusinkveld ultimate pedals. 1st setup around 150$ 2nd setup around 1500$ 3rd setup around 7000$ My irating has went from 800 to 1500 to now 2000 and I have data to believe I will going to 3000ir. The equipment isn't really it but it also is. The pedals input looking at my previous recorded laps in the old equipment was often impossible to have consistent input, trail braking was nearly impossible, the pedals often failed and needed to be cleaned, etc. So the expensive equipment just because it works properly and the same every time has been the answer to getting better. Other than then highest recommendation I could ever make for anyone looking to upgrade, an adjustable sturdy non flex rig while not sexy is by far the best investment for dollar spent... Of course in my opinion.
For several years I was racing with an Xbox controller against my friends and got so quick with it that I was the fastest of my group even though everyone else had wheels. After all these years I got really tired of racing because I was packing immersion. So I decided to buy a used t300 and give it a shot. It was cheap, looks good. I can mount it to my desk and so on. What should I say, I put a lot of ours intobsik racing again because of immersion and eventually got faster because of it. When I race against my friends now they BoP me to have good racing. I love it. It really changed it all for me and I am willing to spend more for a proper rig once I have more space available. Maybe it is not pay to win but it is highly recommended to spend at least a little bit.
I am more into endurance races and so with the T300rs, after about 30-45min, the power decreases because of the overheating safety. So then you have to adjust to the decreasing power of the system on top of the car's feeling. I want to have that consistent force feedback throughout 60 or 90min rather then for the first half of the race. I hope a "cheap" direct drive system such as by Fanatec would help fix this. I hope that
biggest difference, is wheel dimension from my experience. Ive heard if you attach a real wheel and a hub to the logi, youll burn out the motor alot quicker due to the increased weight, whereas the pricey wheels allow full size wheels to be put on
I haven’t got my dd yet but my biggest hope for it is to stop having to remember when to counter and get to feel that and get to pace faster without spending hours and hours learning how the car is reacting and what to do instead of feeling what to so
Loadcell pedals was the game changer for me, rather than the wheel itself. I found I was slightly quicker but a lot more consistent once I had adapted to it
Its an interesting point but I think you missed the chance to add more science. I had a G27 for years, loved it to bits but I wouldn't trade my OSW and HE Pros for the world. The biggest thing I noticed (especially with the pedals) was my laptime deviation and how I responsed to tyre wear/track grip/fuel loads wearing off. If you re-ran the same experiment but taking something like a Porshce GT3 Cup, V8 Supercar or something similar (it looked like you used a GT3 Audi/Lambo with ABS/TC that can corrupt pedal inputs somewhat) with little areo, small tyres and a reasonable amount of power and then did a 5-10 lap stint with both setup's I would fully expect that the higher end setup would be several seconds quicker. Not because the fastest lap was faster but the deviation in lap speed was smaller. Except when you have aliens in the mix. Aliens ruin everything.
Do you think a better set of equipment would help in changing conditions? You can train yourself to drive with minimal feedback in optimal conditions, but throw in some rain or a drying track, then what happens?
we should also look at pc specs (playable frame rates with expensive pc and the opposite with cheap pc),monitors for awareness, sturdiness of the wheel(whether it is attatched on a wobbly table or a sturdy table/cockpit) etc etc. For me (with the same wheel t300 rs), getting more expensive equipment(new pc that doesnt skip frames every other frame, and triple screen + sturdy mount so the wheel doesn't slip anymore) made my times drop in ACC monza from 1:50 to easy and consistent 1:47
One thing you didn’t mention in the video is actual racing. With hot laps, as you say, it’s possible to learn the braking points etc and because of that the lack of fidelity in the cheaper gear isn’t as much of an issue. I would have thought that in races where you are having to take different lines and account for other cars on tracks, that is where I would expect the extra feed back and the feel of the load cell would have more of a marked effect.
I find that if your wheel is decent, and your set-up is atleast stable during use, the pedals made the biggest difference for me. when i first started i bought a g920 set, hated the pedals, i felt like i couldnt tell how far i was depressing the pedals and the brake pedal was either rock hard (stock) or total mush (with different springs). So i bought a set of Fanatec CSL elite pedals with the load cell, and i swear i became a much better driver, i was more consistent over-all, thus making me faster. Currently looking at a Fanatec wheel set-up as the g920 was bought used and the gear lash is gettin larger and larger after all the use.
Finally a real low end vs high end comparison, unlike another youtuber (won't mention his name) using as "low budget" wheel a T500RS with a stand for the wheel
Had a G27 for 10 years and its still going strong. Then suddenly i built my own motion G seat, bought a Simucube 2 pro, P1x pit and Heusinkveld pedals + sequential and put rumble motors on the pedal. VR Pimax 5k+ It cost me a couple of years my life i terms of cost and its worth every penny. Dont make me any faster but im sure as hell having a lot more fun.
There are plenty of people with controller or keyboard faster than me, maybe even using weird FOV or outside view. For me is much more important immersion and fidelity to reality. One day I’d like to try a real car on track and make use of the training at sim. Said so, I’ve a T300 and quite happy with it. One thing I cannot do is drifting and often catching a slide it’s impossible too. Maybe in this regard a DD is superior (never tried though). About pedals, since I changed from stock to T3PA-pro and modded with a damper on brake, I’m much more consistent and can try a trail brake, before was impossible. On the other hand, after 30min race you feel the 25kg of loads on pedal and if race is longer, it get hard to keep consistency, leg get tired.
So if it doesn't make one faster, does it make driving more intuitive? Being able to feel where the grip and braking threshold is more accurately sounds like it might make finding the limit, and staying there consistently, more easy. It sounds like this is the case from the video. I've never driven on a high end setup, I've been on my G920 for almost two years now, but (as we chatted about a few weeks ago on Discord) am starting to look for an upgrade.
I do think that like a lot things in life, it all depends on the skill of the person using it and whether the gear is limiting them or not. For example an amateur guitarist is unlikely to see big differences between a relatively cheap guitar and a really really expensive one - where as a professional is likely to be able to tell the difference and extract the maximum from the high end equipment. I think when you look at high end gear with sim racing, it comes into the fore when you are at the limit of the lower end hardware e.g. iRacing GTE cars where you have no ABS. IT IS PROVEN that a load cell brake WILL allow a GOOD driver to go faster than a non load cell brake - therefore I can understand people thinking things are a bit pay to win (despite it becoming diminishing returns like you say). The whole 'people are still being aliens on g25s' etc is a pretty old theory in my opinion, it's based on sims where you can have assists like ABS on and largely it's just due to the driver building up extreme muscle memory over thousands and thousands of laps (thus not needing load cell or good ffb) - rather than it being 'possible' for a random person to just use that gear and match that time.
What about people who use a gamepad controller or even mouse and keyboard vs. a wheel and pedals, or using chase view vs. cockpit, flat panels vs. trackIR vs.VR? Even things like using auto clutch because your wheel only has 2 pedals and using a shifter pod vs flappy paddles can change the variables. But you can't buy racing mentality and ability. Either you get "in the zone" or you don't. 200mph becomes slow motion.
Having a better gear does make you faster because your lap times are more equal so that equal faster times but however that does not mean you can qualy better than others.
Lol.. i still midfield, but i love the way my DD gives it's feedback to me. Just feels so alive. Upgraded from a G25. I'm still using the G25-pedals, with different springs. (because of my job, i get a helluva back-ache instantly when i'm using a loadcell... so, not very usefull for me.)
I went from a Logitech G27 to a Fanatec ClubSport v2 wheel and v3 pedals setup, and to be honest - it probably made me slower. The extra effort in braking was both a positive and a negative - I'm better at driving with ABS disabled with the CS pedals with their progressive resistance and feedback motor, but heel and toeing in manual cars is more difficult, and fatigue in longer sessions can start to set in. With the wheel, its certainly more immersive being being able to fit different wheels onto the base, have more appropriate controls, and so on. Again though, the G27 probably fatigued me less on longer sessions as you can simply overpower the force feedback (I possibly have it set too high on the CSW). There is also a LOT more time spent faffing with configuration on the Fanatec setup, where as the majority of racing games will just detected the G27 and you're good to go. That all said though, I'm not looking to sell up and change back - the Fanatec setup may not make me faster, but it is more analogous to my real world driving and helps me work on things that benefit that.
I got my hands on a T-GT this week (upgraded from a G29). I instantly improved .5 in F1 2019 TT (I'm not a bad player by any means, usually being in the Top 2-5% in the Ferrari, not even the fastest car) Of course, it's not a real sim, but I haven't improved for a week using the G29. Only 3 laps in with the t-gt, i immediately improved, pushing myself from Top 8% into top 6% and eventually Top 5% with pretty much potential left
DFGT, is a classic though. Its great wheel for those on a budget. Had mine for quite a few years and just recently got a g29, and it is better but not by that much. I like having the h shifter and the pedals are better, but the force feedback is really pretty close despite the DFGT having a smaller motor.
I spent 2 months with g29 of a friend and bought myself a used DFGT... And it's totally worth not spend that much I didn't feel much of a difference besides DFGT being noisy AF. But I didn't knew that much when I was with the G29, adjust better FOV, calibrate pedals for a more reasonable center(springs are too soft in both), LUT and FFB clip. A cheaper setup property adjusted is better than a expensive setup.
What car is that? Does it have abs? Id love to see a comparison video of someone driving the v8 supercars in iracing (or something in ac that is as difficult to drive) I have a feeling those subtle things you feel on the expensive wheel could save your ass,
My take on this is that you get a noticeable improvement in laptimes when going from controller to entry level wheel. Moving to higher end wheels gives marginal improvements. But if you are competing at a high level, those marginal improvements of a few tenths of a second may be enough to defeat opponents.
In my opinion, it is not pay to win as EA games are. I think you can get better with with a direct drive wheel but you don’t need one. I only have a thrustmaster TMX and I am very happy with it! So overall you can get better with a direct drive but all you need is a g29 or TMX.
Better gear is a nice thing to have, but I have been shredding most all tracks and roads in my library with my G29. You just need to mount them well. I keep waiting for it to fail but it hasn't and I do play rough with it. I drift mostly so it is real abuse on the equipment. Still going strong with some tape and scratches.
Anyone who thinks that a $3000 wheel and pedal set up makes you faster is just jealous that they don't have it. You don't need an expensive setup even though it MAY help. Racing is all about the ability to find the limits of a car and pushing it beyond those limits for as many laps as needed. Whatever helps YOU, the individual, do that is what makes you fast. Not a $10k complete set up.
Used to drive with Logitech, i changed to a full fanatec set. My times and skill improved. I think mainly the pedals (logitech -> V3 pedals) made the difference. The wheel itself didnt really do a big difference since i drive with the same (low) FFB as the logitech wheel i used to have
I find it less stressful to control oversteer with my new csw2.5 than with my old g29. G29 is great for getting started. with the g29 I was unable to downshift using the heel toe technique while with fanatec 0 problems
I feel sim racing being P2W with gear is a no, however it does make things smoother and more consistent (I did notice this moving from potentiometer to LC pedals, and single screen to VR), but only for a couple of tenths tops HOWEVER, when you move away from the gear is when it does become pay to win. I cannot for the life of me set up a car, I don't know nearly enough about it all to do that, so I pay for VRS, and use their sets, which are, obviously quicker than a baseline set 95% of the time. Then, you can move into getting coaching from VRS, PURE or whatever service you like, and that can open your eyes to where you can improve and then you work on that, then you get more and more lessons and you can start to get quicker. In saying that, it doesn't happen after 1, or even 6 lessons, it takes a lot of solo driving to stay fast and absorb that information, but paying for the help is definitely going to get you quicker eventually. (I haven't had any coaching yet but is something I am looking at doing next year but would assume with these guys being the best in the world, their advice would help eventually). That is as close to Pay to Win sim racing can get
One may not be faster. But it sounds like it's a lot faster to get fast with the higher end equipment. Whereas you have to adapt and learn limits of each car with the Logitech.
I would add as the level of competition goes up, if you find yourself limited by the functionality of your rig, then certainly, upgrading can give you peace of mind and help mental focus. Right tho, unless you're in top-level racing, 99% of users can't take full advantage of the best wheels out there.
Assetto Corsa and Assetto Corsa Competizione are sims that the budget wheels are not so far from the top ones. Specially in iRacing the load cell pedals makes a huge diference in cars that doesn't have ABS as a steering wheel with belt FFB system like Thrustmaster or budget Fanatec's gives you (in iRacing) a better feeling and it will help you to be more consistent in laptimes, that you make you faster in a long run.
Interesting. I totally agree with what you're saying about the brakes. But, I've had the opposite experience with FFB in iRacing. The difference in feel between a DD and Belt setup in AC was much greater than in iRacing in my experience. Though, things do seem to be better with the cars on the new tyre model.
@@ChrisHaye in my case, I can't go deep about DD wheels because i never tested one. I was refering to change from a DFPGT/G25-27-29 to a Belt System wheel, like T500/ Fanatec CSR Forza/Elite and so on...in my case the feeling was very better in iRacing and made a big difference, not so much in laptimes, but it's easy to find the edge using belt wheels, you find the gap faster and you're able to work with your setup faster/better, you save time, because your trainings will be much more efficient. And...the noise is so low in belt wheels comparing to logitech wheels, hehe.
Never thought of it as pay to win. Idk if the guy in front has a DD wheel or is very good with a controller, I either beat him or dont. Doesnt matter that I did beat or didn't beat him with a mid range PC with a G29. Tho, i do believe i personally would be faster with, lets say a DD wheel, because most of my racing experience comes from karting and not from simracing. So i would probably be slightly faster bc my insticts from Karting would translate that bit better compared to a sluggish g29.
Kaiserlicher König being someone who like you started racing in the real world, got good then started using the simulator to train I think I can agree with you. But for people with little to no real life experience before they started sim racing this video is probably right because they don’t know how a car feels when the backend slides or understeers in real life so for them it wouldn’t really change anything but for drivers such as ourselves it probably would.
I had a crappy Xbox wheel..then bought a used Fanatec CSR Elite and it's all I need. Sure, it's like driving a Mazdaspeed 3 vs a Porsche...but that's life.
It is kind of pay to win. DD doesn't only help with saving the car on a slide it helps with consistency as well. I mean, they are made for a reason. They are faster for a reason. Waiting for visual cue will always be few miliseconds slower which is the difference between saving the car and losing it. F1 drivers don't see the car sliding and then react, they feel it long before that on their butts. And another point is that you kind of back off all your instincts when you are using a lower end wheel because you don't wanna break it. That also makes reactions slow when part of your brain tries to hold you back not to break the toy. Pay to win doesn't end here: A larger screen and higher FPS would also contribute to better laptimes. Screen size contributes much less so in other competitive game types like FPshooter.
It's just normal to want the best equipment you can afford in your budget. If you play tennis you want a nice racquet, any hobby we all want to get top gear. It's human nature, and in my case I know each time I've upgraded my sim gear it did help me improve. But that is cause my stuff was shit. Reality is i'll never afford high-end equipment unless I win the lottery! And likely won't be doing anytime on the podium.
While I do really really want a Fanatec wheel and a collection of beautiful rims to attach to it, my G29 is doing me just fine. I used it to come second in my lobby for yesterday’s GT Sport Nations Cup race. This was after a hard-fought battle against the eventual winner… who was using a DualShock 4 🤣
I've not tried a high end wheel/peddal set but one thing I noticed when moving from pad to wheel was consistancy. Overall speed didn't change but I found that 'I could hit the ultimate lal times more regularly whith a wheel. But it has to be the emertion that makes it woth spending the money on higher end equipment.
Championship-wise, it is pay to win. Thanks to iRacing, simracing now has a system of paid DLC that wasn't in simracing before. Before iRacing, each developer would package the simulator and all of its relevant content with the simulation itself as a complete package, releasing free track packs or vehicle packs some time after release. Since iRacing, developers would bundle a small portion of the content with the simulator, then charge for every additional track and vehicle you wanted to use.
I didn’t get my first win in gt sport till I got my CSL elite bundle now I win 3-4 races a day, i upgraded to V3’s with performance kit about three weeks ago, picked up about 1sec a lap so far from the new pedals I love a load cell brake
I would say it is and it isn't, it really depends on the person but most will not be able to go fast on a controller or non force feedback wheel, so right there you talking about needing to spend at least 100 bucks or so on a good used force feedback wheel like a DFGT, if your going new on the wheel its 150 to 200 on a T-150 or g29\g290. So when your talking about needing to add 100 to 200 dollars just for a wheel alone and its just entry level at that, there certainly is a little bit of pay to win involved. That being said, I love driving games and a force feedback wheel was a no brainer expense and not one made out of a desire to be more competitive but one made out of wanting to get that feel that resembles a real car. Adding a force feedback wheel just makes me enjoy racing and driving games even more than I did when i used a controller, whether I'm racing or not. That's why I say its is but it isn't pay to win, it really just depends on the individual, their circumstances and why they choose to buy the equipment they buy. There are some aliens out there fast on a controller, I used to be pretty damn good on one when I was younger playing Gran Turismo on my playstation as a teen, but even if I could go as fast on controller as I can a wheel which I cant, I would want the wheel. I use a G29 now, I had a DFGT before that for a long time, and if money were no object I'd would buy a direct drive wheel, expensive pedals, h shifter, e brake, motion rig, triple screens and the lot but it wouldn't have anything to do with chasing time but for others it may be. I'll say this, all the expensive equipment in the world isn't going to make you fast if your not willing to put the time in practicing, the only way to truly be consistent is with repetition, learning your lines and braking points and scrubbing off tenths.
I think main thing is consistency is better with better gear , especially going up from entry to mid level gear., so it def CAN make you faster. (over a race) . If you are not as consistent , you will be slower. (if your gear fails you it costs time) For example my g29 shiftier its easier to miss gear changes (compared to say a TH8A shifter) and go into wrong gear due to design (lots of play , and buttons that don't always activate, 1st gear on my shifter is pretty bad), . Going from low -> mid level+ does improve speed(because consistency is important), BUT mid level and up , not so much. (it's the peripherals that matter more than wheel in this regard)However driver skill... is still the main factor , if u suck having good gear , you will still suck.. . :-) . Wheels and pedals(braking consistency yes on cheap pedals also ) , not so much , but H shifter, going to a mid quality (like TH8A) definitely!. Order of importance, to help consistency, H shifter (TH8A or better) then pedals (esp the brake) , u want a load cell brake. These two things do improve speed if upgraded on low gear like a g29.
I have the G920 with the Fanatec CS V3 Pedals, i improved my driving with changing the pedals and the G920 is useless in rFactor 2 as i can't feel when i lock up my brakes and the ffb is very weak in rf2, maybe like 0.5Nm of force. So next step is a DD base.
I have been using very good gear for a few weeks now. I can vouch though simracing with high end gear is not pay2win since I NEVER win 😭 I'm actually a bit more efficient/fast with my Heusinkveld Sprint pedals (over my T3Papro which were quite good...). And I'm much more confident in my ability to stay on the black stuff with my SC2 pro (over my TX which I liked very much.). It's very subtle, nothing to brag about, but in the long run, placebo effect or not, I think I'm a more consistent driver with this gear.
It's not, but if you're fast on a g27, and you can adapt to a better set of pedals and wheel which gives you quicker feedback and more consistent braking, then you might improve slightly. This may be the difference between p4 and p1
![Are You Using The Throttle all WRONG? [Sim Racing]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YQV3zZuCtkw/mqdefault.jpg)
![일상 속 기분 좋음 [Proto disco meme]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/DwmEIaZ7XGQ/mqdefault.jpg)
immersion is p2w but success is not.
This. Nailed it in 7 words... 45 seconds after I posted the video. :P
@@ChrisHaye #Discordsquad :D
Some would even say that immersion distracts from your performance. I have a higher end rig and people with much less expensive equipment drive circles around me in iRacing frequently.
However having a higher end rig means that when I have visitors over and put them in VR that they leave going WOW! It's been a lot of fun when we throw parties. Of course now that I have a racing shell seat which I love, a lot of my friends won't fit :(
@@markkovalcson7243 I am one of those people too that gets a lot of joy out of letting friends play on the rig, they are always amazed by the feel of the wheel and pedals. It is great to see.
Just look at the guy who wins constantly iRacing world championship and gets the big check. He got a rig and 13yo wheel. A Rig helps a ton cause you always sit in same position but the rest depents on good skill(as Chris@Kek say), much driving routine and a a proper FOV. But Physical health helps too, so buy a bench and wheight instead of an annual new wheel, guys :) But need to adress iRacing got some kind of P2W and very addictive price model. That´s why I love racing in Sim Racing System.
I use a Socratic method to answer this question.
Does better gear make sim racing more immersive? Yes
Can more immersive mean more enjoyable? Yes
Are we likely to spend more time doing things we enjoy? Yes
Does more time or practice in sim racing make us faster? Yes
So better gear COULD make you faster. #socrates
My main takeaway from this post is that I need to upgrade everything again :P
Chris Haye SEND ME YOUR OLD GEAR IF YOU DO THAT BECAUSE YOURE MY BEST FRIEND AND THATS WHAT BEST FRIENDS DO
SimRacing604 can confirm 😏
Not true! Socrates did not sim race
What is this immersion you people talkin about? Is that feeling I get seated on a office chair, driving with a toy wheel and looking at the screen my mind goes blank imagining myself on a race car? 🤔 (well at least until I start to think about monkeys or whatever)...
Those that complain about more expensive equipment being pay-to-win are usually the ones who can’t keep their cars on track begin with. The fastest drivers I’ve raced have more often than not been on affordable entry level wheels (mainly logitech G series wheels and pedals.)
Better equipment may help drivers be a little more consistent but in the end the speed always comes back to the person holding the wheel.
Heh - I've made that observation as well ;)
Well said
@GhostOfAkina you have a initialD profile pic and name so you should know that better gear is not always better
@GhostOfAkina true but i still wouldn't sweat it, i don't even have a wheel, i have to use a controller...
GhostOfAkina Takumi also didn’t know the course, where as Kyoichi had studied it heavily to prep for his race against Ryosuke. I doubt Kyoichi would have won had the race taken place on Akina.
In short: NO!
I have great gear but i'm still terrible at it XD
Haha - I resemble that remark!
@GameLord 23 I do shoes under the wheels on my spinning chair too haha
@GameLord 23 I have my wheel clamped to an IKEA table so i put the legs of the table in shoes and put dumbells on top to keep it from sliding all over the room.
@Player 23 not sure i can beat it but i do like talking about my "rig" :D
I sit on a bunch of pillows on the floor leaning my back against a fatboy thats up against a wall. My g29 is on a piece of wood (with a couple weights on it so it doesnt move around every other corner) that lies on two moving boxes. Pedals on the floor with a couple of water boxes behind them to stop them from sliding. Also my eye level is lower than the top of my wheel :D
Still get on pretty well tho :D
Player 23 I use some Jam Jar lids to keep my wheels in place mate 😂
DD wheels and loadcell pedals don't make you faster but:
- They allow you to learn and improve faster, and make learning less frustrating
- They make you more consistent
- They require less mental effort to drive because you can feel more (less reliance on vision)
- They make driving more fun
- All of this is more true for difficult open-wheel formula cars, and less for GT cars.
Why does this apply more to "open-wheel formula cars"?
@@TheHidalgo99 @TheHidalgo99 Because they are driven closer to the limit, with higher forces, where it's absolutely important that you feel a slide before you die, or lose a lot of time. With GT cars you can generally slide more and make more mistakes without spinning or losing time. IMHO :)
I loved my G29 and since moving to a direct drive wheel my lap times are still similar however the enjoyment and immersion using a direct drive make the experience a better one.
So it is good upgrading?
you might aswell compare it to guitars. give jimmy hendrix a fender stratocaster and a walmart guitar and he is going to play amazing music on both. sure the cheap guitar might sound worse and lack in quality, both guitars are able to produce sound. same as with sim racing equipment
Great example. Having played for 25 years, and done a bit of teaching, I can confirm that a quality guitar in inexperienced hands sounds like garbage :)
@@ChrisHaye i would even say that a quality guitar allows less mistakes, as its made for showing the little details of playing.
@@ChrisHaye on the other hand, if you gave Max V/Lando Norris a shitty wheel and asked them to put in the same times on iracing as they do with leo bodnar/osw, do you think it would be anywhere near as close?
Chris Haye who needs expensive guitars.... my Ibanez RG does all I need!
Stuart Jones not at first, but after a week or so maybe!
Having an unstable rig can also affect your lap time. I need my wheel, pedals and seat to be rock solid for me to drive properly.
jeez, I wish I had a stable wheel stand. At least it's better than nothing.
My crappy laptop stand which i had my g29 mounted on fell apart during a race recently so i was forced to get something to replace it. I decided on a wheel stand pro as i didn't want anything larger. Looking at it, i thought it would wobble a bit but i could live with that as anything would be better than what i had. Wrong! The thing is rock solid. What a difference. I'm impressed!
Yeah I got a t150 clamped to a foldable TV dinner table. It wobbles quite a bit. Very annoying
Malcom McLeod my rig is unstable lmao i put my steering wheel on the same thing that my mom uses to iron clothes... pedals are just stood on the floor which is annoying because they slide all over the place
Malcom McLeod totally correct. Small move on the pedal platform can ruins driving focus.
There's plenty of aliens using g25s/pedals.
All the higher end stuff, DD, pedal sets, etc increases immersion.
I've been at this for about 12 years. Started with g25, then TM t500rs, then TM TS-PC racer, Fanatec v3 pedals, 2.5 SQ shifter and handbrake and just got a DD1.
I started sim racing around the age of 45 so I took my time seeing if I wanted to invest more.
I'm really not any faster but immersion is great!
Pedals seem to be the best bang for performance increase.
Practice, practice, practice and maximizing setup to your personal style.
Good luck to all. Have fun with whatever you have.
Cheers! See you on the tarmac!
personally use a madcatz xbox 360 wheel for sim racing as i didnt want to do a major investment for something i wasnt too sure how id like, and honestly only thing i have an issue with it is no clutch so have to use autoblip, no ffb, and driver support is non existent, paid $30 for it and running about mid pack in the bmw m4 and ferarri 488 gt3 class D in iracing, street stocks R always top 5, so it does me well enough to stay competitive so id say the wheel doesnt really matter its all based on what you prefer
Brilliant video Chris. Can very much agree that more expensive equipment doesn't necessarily equal faster lap times, although I would say that more expensive pedal sets with load cells is likely to see the bigger performance gain in comparison to a wheel. There's a lot more accuracy and fidelity to be found with pedals with load cells and springs behind the throttle that yield greater control and could therefore lead to more consistent driving. I know for sure that my initial throttle application is usually too hard due to my throttle pedal on the T3PA Pro pedals not having any or very little resistance, so having something higher end would probably improve that area and help me drive off corners better and more reliably.
Still, great video and keep up the awesome content!
Some people will be aliens no matter what gear you give them, will even beat you with a game pad..
For me it's all about immersion and doing what I love, for fun.
Spot on. Besides, whatever you spend on a sim rig pales into insignificance compared to real world racing!
@@ChrisHaye That is so true!
I will try tell my wife that next time she's nagging about a purchase..😅
Awww, thanks R-VR Closet, as I try to do my best...…………. but you shouldn't call me an ALIEN!!! (I get all embarrassed ; )))
I didn't think there was much that could be more comforting and friendly than your voice, then I saw your face haha. Really enjoying all your video's during the lockdown, I was really lucky I picked a wheel up just in time and even luckier to have found your channel, great videos and great advice, stay safe everyone.
Video idea: peripheral awareness on a single monitor. I personally struggle with it, and seeing you race on a single monitor as well, it would be interesting to hear how you deal with it. Cheers!
Milos Vujkovic this!
Nikola Rakić this!
Yes, I would say triples are a pay to win, especially in dirt racing very difficult to race hard with out the peripheral vision
Absolutely brilliant videos! I love how genuine, level-headed and sensible you are answering this sort of questions. Thank you for your efforts and dedication! Can't but recommend your channel
love how a g29 is an entery level wheel
it's what else would it be. It's what i use and what must people buy and what most people buy when starting.
Compared to a direct drive setup it’s entry level.
That's what most people get when starting off, what else would it be
I have a g29 too. Wheel is OK (long as you know how to setup FFB correctly), but the shifter is pretty bad and g29 needs a load cell brake. .
I drive mainly stick shift cars, Next upgrade will be a TH8a then a load cell kit (which I'll have to import)
And FYI : (for me even entry level is expensive)
Everything locally is 2x US$ price tag, some ppl its even more , so a g29 here is what US/EU ppl would pay for mid level stuff. I can't even buy high level stuff here(or most mid level). (for example Fanatech is not even sold here, limited to logitech and thrustmaster locally, everything else is a personal import)
Stix_09 careful with the load cell mod of the g29 pedal set. The g29 has a software curve to account for the rubber bump stop where the g25 and g27 software doesn’t. Don’t know how much it’ll effect driving, but it might make things funky
Great video mate, but if you're gonna upload with the 21:9 "cinematic" aspect ratio, you should really make sure it's true 21:9, not just 16:9 with black bars. For those of us with 18:9 phones (which are increasingly common) or 21:9 monitors, we end up just getting black bars all round the video, which really ruins the "cinematic" effect
Since getting a direct drive wheel, my iRacing safety rating has shot up. I catch almost all the slides in races. I’ll still spin out in practice when I’m pushing for a faster lap, but that’s expected
There can be few sim racers who start off their hobby by spending 2k on equipment. The vast majority of us start with a logitech or thrustmaster. By the time someone decides to invest in a DD and loadcell pedals, chances are they already have two or more years experience and have cemented a new passion for hardware and software. So while higher end equipment may not make you faster, there is a good chance that faster drivers use high end equipment. QED
Yet the leaderboards don't show they are ;)
For someone who's used a variety of wheels and competing at different levels as well I can say I'm most confident with my direct drive, I'm however aware that this wouldn't be relevant or matter unless I'd learnt how to drive correctly. Doesn't matter what you're using if you don't know the correct technique. A direct drive can then give you the added feel.
But even on a really competitive competition I'm not sure it matters too much - at that point the drivers put in so much practise that they learn the limit which means the feeling of the wheel is less important.
A takeaway from other videos like this - and something that sounds reasonable to me - is that high-end gear doesn't make you faster. But it allows you to become fast quicker. It helps with the learning curve and consistency, and helps pick up other cars etc faster due to the better feedback. And of course as a side effect, leads to more practice time since you want to use that shiny new gear you just bought a lot more.
I'll be able to experience that for myself before long, I'm definitely a super casual racer on a TMX pro, but will treat myself to a DD1 at the end of the year because of a successful year for me. I dont get to drive often, but when I do, I love it, so this'll certainly drive that enjoyment up by a big margin, and most likely lead to me just making more time during my time off to sit down and race.
I explain to my gamer friends that, while I am good at pretty much all racing games, I like sim racing, and I try to relay to them the differences. One thing I mention is the difference in wheels, explaining that I want a direct drive and (if I'm lucky) motion sim setup for deeper immersion into the sim, not because it will make me faster, but because it gives a greater sense of realism. A simulation of driving is NOT pay to win. It's skill to win. You pay more for the experience, not the lap times.
Good video Chris. I noticed lately your keepin em down and I can imagine how tough that can be from habit lol, keep up the quality content man!
I’m someone whose progressed from a Thrustmaster which doesn’t have FFB to a g29, t300 and now a Direct drive with pedals comparable to Heusinkveld.
Of course it’s down to personal preference, but i think that if the wheel base has decent force feedback, the pedals are the most important to invest in. Controlling traction and trail braking is very very challenging with a pedal set that weighs pretty much nothing at all. I think that it’s worth investing in a solid set of pedals and spending slightly less on the wheel base. But that’s down to personal preference.
Sim Racing isn’t pay for win directly, but someone using a non-FFB system with those elastic systems is going to have a much harder time being fast compared to someone with a good wheel and pedal set, even if it’s not a top of the line DD
I have a sim racing school and a lot of students using Fanatecs, DD, Heusinkveld and they're slow at track. BUT, to very fast guys, specially at iRacing, you can win 0.100 to 0.300 with a Fanatec wheel or pedal, with a better rear-car control, using different setup values, like more stiffness at rear.
Nailed it Chris.
One other point; with the move from a Fanatec CSW to an OSW wheel the feedback was so much more detailed it tired me out for a while. At first I was slower through sensory overload I think! Eventually I was no faster but less errors. The rest of the benefits for me....
-It's more immersive
-Never have to even think about an upgrade
-Never wear out
Real racing is partially pay to win but you better have some skill or you've wasted your money big time 😜
Man, real racing is the ultimate example of pay-to-win. Though there are plenty of examples where it hasn't worked out - Toyota in F1 for example :)
In real racing success is dependent and divided into 70% car - 30% driver. In sim racing, it's obviously pretty much all driver...Maybe 95% driver and 5% equipment.
@@ChrisHaye Great video btw Chris. The one thing you only touched on and didn't really talk about is consistency. I am pretty sure that if you did 30-40 laps with each setup, your total race time would have been a couple of seconds slower on the cheaper setup. One lap the difference like you said, is minimum (only 1 tenth), but obviously over 30 laps that might well be 3 seconds.
M. R. or it's just standard deviation.
@@m.r.2718 Maybe in F1 where the margins are so tight...but everywhere else the driver skill has WAY more to do with success than the car. In sim racing, even pros can get caught up in equipment that is actively hindering them.
Hey Chris, another great vid, to help someone starting out do you think Logitech g25/27/920 with fanatic load cell, best bang for buck start? I prev used T300, then csl elite, then dfgt while waiting for simucube 2 pro to arrive, I was impressed with the Logitech feel despite it being the cheapest wheel I used. Hope this helps more people get into the racing.
Nailed it mate.
As a sim racer I can safely say that upgrading will make you quicker ..
I have a G29, Chris. It seems to me the direct drive allows you to identify a loss of traction quicker and correct potential mistakes. If I get stupid with my gas foot, I’m not able to feel it right away. Just my take on it. Thanks for the vid!
The G29 looked like it was spot on with the in-game steering wheel in terms of positioning. Turning it 90 degrees showed 90 degrees on screen, whereas the more expensive one which you said required smaller inputs, did not match what the in-game wheel angle was. I'll take the G29 every time since I don't really care for competition racing, just for fun and a little immersion.
With such a "little" (as people would say, I'm not trying to be rude) audience, your videos are well-edited and have good visuals, not to mention your commentary is amazing. I reckon you need a lot more subscribers and views, and I believe you will get that.
Great video and oh so true, I'm 61 and just upgraded my 8+ year old T500 to a Accuforce Pro V2 DD wheel, yes I like it, the fidelity is great, does it make me faster, not by a long shot, I just feel more of what's going on with the DD wheel. I would have to say the only and I do mean ONLY expense I have done in the many years of sim racing that has made me faster is buying a Load Cell mod for my T500 pedals (Now known as T3PA-Pro), I bought a Bodin beam style load cell mod, this thing is amazing, I can brake later (less fear of lock up) thus being able to get back on the gas sooner. Also VR has helped, the sense of distance and speed is enhanced in VR thus making it a easier to hit your apex just right. And as you mentioned, so many Aliens are using G25, G27, G29 and some even still using a DFGT, it's not the gear, it's the level of talent.
Having done the whole trip step by step,most upgrades can make you a little bit more consistent,not faster.
I'll explain:
Loadcell brake was mentioned in the video,but most people dont even set their brakes correctly.
DDWheel helps you feel the limit,so in changing conditions maybe you will adapt faster.
And the biggest improvement i got was from VR,i could learn tracks WAY faster,and after i find the "faster" line,i could hit it almost everytime.
So,no,as far as fastest lap goes,it wont make you faster,but in race conditions i think better equipment helps.
There is a guy currently competing in VEC who used a pad for many years and was super quick. He’s now on a wheel and uses NO FORCE FEEDBACK.
At the same time, the real time comes from your brake pedal. A better brake pedal will give you half a tenth maximum but that’s about it. But spending two grand on a high end rig won’t make you a better driver in the same way that shelling out five grand on a custom shop Gibson Les Paul will make you a better guitar player. But hey, it’s your money 🤷🏻♂️
Custom Shop Les Pauls are for lawyers and brokers, not guitarists ;)
Chris Haye ya would if ya could tho 😂
Play authentic 😏
After changing from a G27 to a T300 the first thing i noticed was that i was more consistent, i was roughly 1 second slower at the start but i spun only 1/3 times compared to the G27, it was easier to drive at the limit and easier to correct mistakes and most importantly: More fun.
I think there's something in the consistency argument. I found the same myself. I think it comes from being a bit less likely to be 'caught out' by something you don't feel in lesser force feedback.
After this i’m really wondering how something like a csl elite compares. Like, is it more on the g29 side, where you still have to use your eyes more, or more in line with the dd?
Honestly, I was thinking that either of the Fanatec belt drive wheels are a pretty great compromise. The FFB is much more detailed and responsive than the Logitechs, but without the direct drive costs. Obviously it's not on the same level as a DD setup, but I do think that's where the law of diminishing returns starts to set in.
The speed of rotation, smoothness and torque of the fanatec are all better on the fanatec, but it better be, at 3-4x the price tag. Haha. Direct drive is 6x the price tag of g29. The g29 is a great wheel!
Of course it isn’t pay to win, I use old Logitech MOMO and I have no problem being competitive and win from time to time,
sure those expensive things sometimes makes some things easier like breaking and being more consistent,
But if somebody says he is slow because of lack of proper equipment then either he practice to little to gain that extra time, or his technique simply lacks, no offence but that’s the truth,
go there and get the most out of you it’s surely in there somewhere but you need to find it first
Love your Videos!
Everything you say seems so thought through, unlike most other TH-camrs. Keep up the good work :)
Had a g29 great wheel the money can't beat it for the price
Totally agree Tom. This is the first one I've had for any length of time, and there's a lot to like about the G29/G920.
I has it also and it sucked
I've upgraded from Logitech g27 on a kitchen table single monitor to a fanatec 2.5 and csl elite pedals, then csl load cell pedals and gt omega rig, then a p1x, 27“ triple screens, vr, simcube 2 pro, heusinkveld ultimate pedals.
1st setup around 150$
2nd setup around 1500$
3rd setup around 7000$
My irating has went from 800 to 1500 to now 2000 and I have data to believe I will going to 3000ir.
The equipment isn't really it but it also is. The pedals input looking at my previous recorded laps in the old equipment was often impossible to have consistent input, trail braking was nearly impossible, the pedals often failed and needed to be cleaned, etc. So the expensive equipment just because it works properly and the same every time has been the answer to getting better. Other than then highest recommendation I could ever make for anyone looking to upgrade, an adjustable sturdy non flex rig while not sexy is by far the best investment for dollar spent... Of course in my opinion.
For several years I was racing with an Xbox controller against my friends and got so quick with it that I was the fastest of my group even though everyone else had wheels. After all these years I got really tired of racing because I was packing immersion. So I decided to buy a used t300 and give it a shot. It was cheap, looks good. I can mount it to my desk and so on. What should I say, I put a lot of ours intobsik racing again because of immersion and eventually got faster because of it. When I race against my friends now they BoP me to have good racing. I love it. It really changed it all for me and I am willing to spend more for a proper rig once I have more space available. Maybe it is not pay to win but it is highly recommended to spend at least a little bit.
I am more into endurance races and so with the T300rs, after about 30-45min, the power decreases because of the overheating safety. So then you have to adjust to the decreasing power of the system on top of the car's feeling. I want to have that consistent force feedback throughout 60 or 90min rather then for the first half of the race. I hope a "cheap" direct drive system such as by Fanatec would help fix this.
I hope that
biggest difference, is wheel dimension from my experience. Ive heard if you attach a real wheel and a hub to the logi, youll burn out the motor alot quicker due to the increased weight, whereas the pricey wheels allow full size wheels to be put on
Boosted Media did similar comparison and he agreed with your conclusion about learning the 'optimum' drive. Btw I still use a G25!
I haven’t got my dd yet but my biggest hope for it is to stop having to remember when to counter and get to feel that and get to pace faster without spending hours and hours learning how the car is reacting and what to do instead of feeling what to so
Loadcell pedals was the game changer for me, rather than the wheel itself. I found I was slightly quicker but a lot more consistent once I had adapted to it
Its an interesting point but I think you missed the chance to add more science. I had a G27 for years, loved it to bits but I wouldn't trade my OSW and HE Pros for the world. The biggest thing I noticed (especially with the pedals) was my laptime deviation and how I responsed to tyre wear/track grip/fuel loads wearing off.
If you re-ran the same experiment but taking something like a Porshce GT3 Cup, V8 Supercar or something similar (it looked like you used a GT3 Audi/Lambo with ABS/TC that can corrupt pedal inputs somewhat) with little areo, small tyres and a reasonable amount of power and then did a 5-10 lap stint with both setup's I would fully expect that the higher end setup would be several seconds quicker. Not because the fastest lap was faster but the deviation in lap speed was smaller.
Except when you have aliens in the mix. Aliens ruin everything.
Do you think a better set of equipment would help in changing conditions? You can train yourself to drive with minimal feedback in optimal conditions, but throw in some rain or a drying track, then what happens?
Interesting thought. I'm tempted to say yes. More fidelity in information can only be a benefit when things don't go as planned.
we should also look at pc specs (playable frame rates with expensive pc and the opposite with cheap pc),monitors for awareness, sturdiness of the wheel(whether it is attatched on a wobbly table or a sturdy table/cockpit) etc etc.
For me (with the same wheel t300 rs), getting more expensive equipment(new pc that doesnt skip frames every other frame, and triple screen + sturdy mount so the wheel doesn't slip anymore) made my times drop in ACC monza from 1:50 to easy and consistent 1:47
One thing you didn’t mention in the video is actual racing. With hot laps, as you say, it’s possible to learn the braking points etc and because of that the lack of fidelity in the cheaper gear isn’t as much of an issue. I would have thought that in races where you are having to take different lines and account for other cars on tracks, that is where I would expect the extra feed back and the feel of the load cell would have more of a marked effect.
I find that if your wheel is decent, and your set-up is atleast stable during use, the pedals made the biggest difference for me. when i first started i bought a g920 set, hated the pedals, i felt like i couldnt tell how far i was depressing the pedals and the brake pedal was either rock hard (stock) or total mush (with different springs). So i bought a set of Fanatec CSL elite pedals with the load cell, and i swear i became a much better driver, i was more consistent over-all, thus making me faster. Currently looking at a Fanatec wheel set-up as the g920 was bought used and the gear lash is gettin larger and larger after all the use.
Finally a real low end vs high end comparison, unlike another youtuber (won't mention his name) using as "low budget" wheel a T500RS with a stand for the wheel
Had a G27 for 10 years and its still going strong. Then suddenly i built my own motion G seat, bought a Simucube 2 pro, P1x pit and Heusinkveld pedals + sequential and put rumble motors on the pedal. VR Pimax 5k+ It cost me a couple of years my life i terms of cost and its worth every penny. Dont make me any faster but im sure as hell having a lot more fun.
There are plenty of people with controller or keyboard faster than me, maybe even using weird FOV or outside view. For me is much more important immersion and fidelity to reality. One day I’d like to try a real car on track and make use of the training at sim.
Said so, I’ve a T300 and quite happy with it. One thing I cannot do is drifting and often catching a slide it’s impossible too. Maybe in this regard a DD is superior (never tried though).
About pedals, since I changed from stock to T3PA-pro and modded with a damper on brake, I’m much more consistent and can try a trail brake, before was impossible. On the other hand, after 30min race you feel the 25kg of loads on pedal and if race is longer, it get hard to keep consistency, leg get tired.
So if it doesn't make one faster, does it make driving more intuitive? Being able to feel where the grip and braking threshold is more accurately sounds like it might make finding the limit, and staying there consistently, more easy. It sounds like this is the case from the video.
I've never driven on a high end setup, I've been on my G920 for almost two years now, but (as we chatted about a few weeks ago on Discord) am starting to look for an upgrade.
Can you do controller vs wheel in your next video? That'll be interesting.
I do think that like a lot things in life, it all depends on the skill of the person using it and whether the gear is limiting them or not. For example an amateur guitarist is unlikely to see big differences between a relatively cheap guitar and a really really expensive one - where as a professional is likely to be able to tell the difference and extract the maximum from the high end equipment. I think when you look at high end gear with sim racing, it comes into the fore when you are at the limit of the lower end hardware e.g. iRacing GTE cars where you have no ABS. IT IS PROVEN that a load cell brake WILL allow a GOOD driver to go faster than a non load cell brake - therefore I can understand people thinking things are a bit pay to win (despite it becoming diminishing returns like you say). The whole 'people are still being aliens on g25s' etc is a pretty old theory in my opinion, it's based on sims where you can have assists like ABS on and largely it's just due to the driver building up extreme muscle memory over thousands and thousands of laps (thus not needing load cell or good ffb) - rather than it being 'possible' for a random person to just use that gear and match that time.
What about people who use a gamepad controller or even mouse and keyboard vs. a wheel and pedals, or using chase view vs. cockpit, flat panels vs. trackIR vs.VR? Even things like using auto clutch because your wheel only has 2 pedals and using a shifter pod vs flappy paddles can change the variables. But you can't buy racing mentality and ability. Either you get "in the zone" or you don't. 200mph becomes slow motion.
Having a better gear does make you faster because your lap times are more equal so that equal faster times but however that does not mean you can qualy better than others.
Lol.. i still midfield, but i love the way my DD gives it's feedback to me. Just feels so alive. Upgraded from a G25. I'm still using the G25-pedals, with different springs. (because of my job, i get a helluva back-ache instantly when i'm using a loadcell... so, not very usefull for me.)
I went from a Logitech G27 to a Fanatec ClubSport v2 wheel and v3 pedals setup, and to be honest - it probably made me slower. The extra effort in braking was both a positive and a negative - I'm better at driving with ABS disabled with the CS pedals with their progressive resistance and feedback motor, but heel and toeing in manual cars is more difficult, and fatigue in longer sessions can start to set in.
With the wheel, its certainly more immersive being being able to fit different wheels onto the base, have more appropriate controls, and so on. Again though, the G27 probably fatigued me less on longer sessions as you can simply overpower the force feedback (I possibly have it set too high on the CSW).
There is also a LOT more time spent faffing with configuration on the Fanatec setup, where as the majority of racing games will just detected the G27 and you're good to go.
That all said though, I'm not looking to sell up and change back - the Fanatec setup may not make me faster, but it is more analogous to my real world driving and helps me work on things that benefit that.
I went from G27 to DD + HE Pros and I’m slower too. More fun though!
I got my hands on a T-GT this week (upgraded from a G29). I instantly improved .5 in F1 2019 TT (I'm not a bad player by any means, usually being in the Top 2-5% in the Ferrari, not even the fastest car)
Of course, it's not a real sim, but I haven't improved for a week using the G29. Only 3 laps in with the t-gt, i immediately improved, pushing myself from Top 8% into top 6% and eventually Top 5% with pretty much potential left
And then there’s me with the DFGT
DFGT, is a classic though. Its great wheel for those on a budget. Had mine for quite a few years and just recently got a g29, and it is better but not by that much. I like having the h shifter and the pedals are better, but the force feedback is really pretty close despite the DFGT having a smaller motor.
Add me
DFGT was and still is great! G25 is good too.
I spent 2 months with g29 of a friend and bought myself a used DFGT...
And it's totally worth not spend that much I didn't feel much of a difference besides DFGT being noisy AF.
But I didn't knew that much when I was with the G29, adjust better FOV, calibrate pedals for a more reasonable center(springs are too soft in both), LUT and FFB clip.
A cheaper setup property adjusted is better than a expensive setup.
What car is that? Does it have abs? Id love to see a comparison video of someone driving the v8 supercars in iracing (or something in ac that is as difficult to drive)
I have a feeling those subtle things you feel on the expensive wheel could save your ass,
My take on this is that you get a noticeable improvement in laptimes when going from controller to entry level wheel. Moving to higher end wheels gives marginal improvements. But if you are competing at a high level, those marginal improvements of a few tenths of a second may be enough to defeat opponents.
The cockpit absolutely matters. A shaky desk will dampen FFB. As long as it's sturdy and comfortable, it'll be fine.
Gtsport esports drivers also uses the popular G29 wheel setup
Yo what G29 is that? I have the Xbox one and it doesn't have that led strip above the center
What about single monitor vs triples vs VR? I feel like there could be a small pay to win element in that, especially single monitor vs triplets.
In my opinion, it is not pay to win as EA games are. I think you can get better with with a direct drive wheel but you don’t need one. I only have a thrustmaster TMX and I am very happy with it!
So overall you can get better with a direct drive but all you need is a g29 or TMX.
Better gear is a nice thing to have, but I have been shredding most all tracks and roads in my library with my G29. You just need to mount them well. I keep waiting for it to fail but it hasn't and I do play rough with it. I drift mostly so it is real abuse on the equipment. Still going strong with some tape and scratches.
Useful video👍🏼. What about screens though. I have a budget tv but will get a monitor soon but not keen on the small sizes.✌🏼
Anyone who thinks that a $3000 wheel and pedal set up makes you faster is just jealous that they don't have it. You don't need an expensive setup even though it MAY help. Racing is all about the ability to find the limits of a car and pushing it beyond those limits for as many laps as needed. Whatever helps YOU, the individual, do that is what makes you fast. Not a $10k complete set up.
Used to drive with Logitech, i changed to a full fanatec set. My times and skill improved. I think mainly the pedals (logitech -> V3 pedals) made the difference. The wheel itself didnt really do a big difference since i drive with the same (low) FFB as the logitech wheel i used to have
I find it less stressful to control oversteer with my new csw2.5 than with my old g29. G29 is great for getting started. with the g29 I was unable to downshift using the heel toe technique while with fanatec 0 problems
I feel sim racing being P2W with gear is a no, however it does make things smoother and more consistent (I did notice this moving from potentiometer to LC pedals, and single screen to VR), but only for a couple of tenths tops
HOWEVER, when you move away from the gear is when it does become pay to win. I cannot for the life of me set up a car, I don't know nearly enough about it all to do that, so I pay for VRS, and use their sets, which are, obviously quicker than a baseline set 95% of the time. Then, you can move into getting coaching from VRS, PURE or whatever service you like, and that can open your eyes to where you can improve and then you work on that, then you get more and more lessons and you can start to get quicker. In saying that, it doesn't happen after 1, or even 6 lessons, it takes a lot of solo driving to stay fast and absorb that information, but paying for the help is definitely going to get you quicker eventually. (I haven't had any coaching yet but is something I am looking at doing next year but would assume with these guys being the best in the world, their advice would help eventually). That is as close to Pay to Win sim racing can get
Great stuff as always, keep up the good work Chris!
One may not be faster. But it sounds like it's a lot faster to get fast with the higher end equipment. Whereas you have to adapt and learn limits of each car with the Logitech.
You will have a big difference in laptime if you mounted the wheel to a desk, put the pedals on the floor and use an office chair.
I would add as the level of competition goes up, if you find yourself limited by the functionality of your rig, then certainly, upgrading can give you peace of mind and help mental focus. Right tho, unless you're in top-level racing, 99% of users can't take full advantage of the best wheels out there.
Assetto Corsa and Assetto Corsa Competizione are sims that the budget wheels are not so far from the top ones. Specially in iRacing the load cell pedals makes a huge diference in cars that doesn't have ABS as a steering wheel with belt FFB system like Thrustmaster or budget Fanatec's gives you (in iRacing) a better feeling and it will help you to be more consistent in laptimes, that you make you faster in a long run.
Interesting. I totally agree with what you're saying about the brakes. But, I've had the opposite experience with FFB in iRacing. The difference in feel between a DD and Belt setup in AC was much greater than in iRacing in my experience. Though, things do seem to be better with the cars on the new tyre model.
@@ChrisHaye in my case, I can't go deep about DD wheels because i never tested one. I was refering to change from a DFPGT/G25-27-29 to a Belt System wheel, like T500/ Fanatec CSR Forza/Elite and so on...in my case the feeling was very better in iRacing and made a big difference, not so much in laptimes, but it's easy to find the edge using belt wheels, you find the gap faster and you're able to work with your setup faster/better, you save time, because your trainings will be much more efficient. And...the noise is so low in belt wheels comparing to logitech wheels, hehe.
The cube wheel is pretty badass tho
Never thought of it as pay to win.
Idk if the guy in front has a DD wheel or is very good with a controller, I either beat him or dont.
Doesnt matter that I did beat or didn't beat him with a mid range PC with a G29.
Tho, i do believe i personally would be faster with, lets say a DD wheel, because most of my racing experience comes from karting and not from simracing. So i would probably be slightly faster bc my insticts from Karting would translate that bit better compared to a sluggish g29.
Kaiserlicher König being someone who like you started racing in the real world, got good then started using the simulator to train I think I can agree with you. But for people with little to no real life experience before they started sim racing this video is probably right because they don’t know how a car feels when the backend slides or understeers in real life so for them it wouldn’t really change anything but for drivers such as ourselves it probably would.
I had a crappy Xbox wheel..then bought a used Fanatec CSR Elite and it's all I need. Sure, it's like driving a Mazdaspeed 3 vs a Porsche...but that's life.
It is kind of pay to win. DD doesn't only help with saving the car on a slide it helps with consistency as well. I mean, they are made for a reason. They are faster for a reason. Waiting for visual cue will always be few miliseconds slower which is the difference between saving the car and losing it. F1 drivers don't see the car sliding and then react, they feel it long before that on their butts.
And another point is that you kind of back off all your instincts when you are using a lower end wheel because you don't wanna break it. That also makes reactions slow when part of your brain tries to hold you back not to break the toy.
Pay to win doesn't end here: A larger screen and higher FPS would also contribute to better laptimes. Screen size contributes much less so in other competitive game types like FPshooter.
It's just normal to want the best equipment you can afford in your budget. If you play tennis you want a nice racquet, any hobby we all want to get top gear. It's human nature, and in my case I know each time I've upgraded my sim gear it did help me improve. But that is cause my stuff was shit. Reality is i'll never afford high-end equipment unless I win the lottery! And likely won't be doing anytime on the podium.
I used to play with a very small wheel without ffb... would like to see how would that played out vs sim rig... :)
While I do really really want a Fanatec wheel and a collection of beautiful rims to attach to it, my G29 is doing me just fine. I used it to come second in my lobby for yesterday’s GT Sport Nations Cup race.
This was after a hard-fought battle against the eventual winner… who was using a DualShock 4 🤣
I've not tried a high end wheel/peddal set but one thing I noticed when moving from pad to wheel was consistancy. Overall speed didn't change but I found that 'I could hit the ultimate lal times more regularly whith a wheel. But it has to be the emertion that makes it woth spending the money on higher end equipment.
Can't say I have any problems with my G29. Big step up from controller - add in ACC and that's why I'm glad I did or I might not have moved onto PC.
Championship-wise, it is pay to win. Thanks to iRacing, simracing now has a system of paid DLC that wasn't in simracing before. Before iRacing, each developer would package the simulator and all of its relevant content with the simulation itself as a complete package, releasing free track packs or vehicle packs some time after release. Since iRacing, developers would bundle a small portion of the content with the simulator, then charge for every additional track and vehicle you wanted to use.
Appreciate your videos keep up the great work! Also, you could narrate anything and I'd listen.
I didn’t get my first win in gt sport till I got my CSL elite bundle now I win 3-4 races a day, i upgraded to V3’s with performance kit about three weeks ago, picked up about 1sec a lap so far from the new pedals I love a load cell brake
I would say it is and it isn't, it really depends on the person but most will not be able to go fast on a controller or non force feedback wheel, so right there you talking about needing to spend at least 100 bucks or so on a good used force feedback wheel like a DFGT, if your going new on the wheel its 150 to 200 on a T-150 or g29\g290. So when your talking about needing to add 100 to 200 dollars just for a wheel alone and its just entry level at that, there certainly is a little bit of pay to win involved. That being said, I love driving games and a force feedback wheel was a no brainer expense and not one made out of a desire to be more competitive but one made out of wanting to get that feel that resembles a real car. Adding a force feedback wheel just makes me enjoy racing and driving games even more than I did when i used a controller, whether I'm racing or not. That's why I say its is but it isn't pay to win, it really just depends on the individual, their circumstances and why they choose to buy the equipment they buy. There are some aliens out there fast on a controller, I used to be pretty damn good on one when I was younger playing Gran Turismo on my playstation as a teen, but even if I could go as fast on controller as I can a wheel which I cant, I would want the wheel. I use a G29 now, I had a DFGT before that for a long time, and if money were no object I'd would buy a direct drive wheel, expensive pedals, h shifter, e brake, motion rig, triple screens and the lot but it wouldn't have anything to do with chasing time but for others it may be. I'll say this, all the expensive equipment in the world isn't going to make you fast if your not willing to put the time in practicing, the only way to truly be consistent is with repetition, learning your lines and braking points and scrubbing off tenths.
I mean I knew this, having only used Logitech gear, but quality gear for the immersion is always a desire 😀
I think main thing is consistency is better with better gear , especially going up from entry to mid level gear., so it def CAN make you faster. (over a race) . If you are not as consistent , you will be slower. (if your gear fails you it costs time)
For example my g29 shiftier its easier to miss gear changes (compared to say a TH8A shifter) and go into wrong gear due to design (lots of play , and buttons that don't always activate, 1st gear on my shifter is pretty bad), . Going from low -> mid level+ does improve speed(because consistency is important), BUT mid level and up , not so much. (it's the peripherals that matter more than wheel in this regard)However driver skill...
is still the main factor , if u suck having good gear , you will still suck.. . :-) . Wheels and pedals(braking consistency yes on cheap pedals also ) , not so much , but H shifter, going to a mid quality (like TH8A) definitely!.
Order of importance, to help consistency, H shifter (TH8A or better) then pedals (esp the brake) , u want a load cell brake. These two things do improve speed if upgraded on low gear like a g29.
I have the G920 with the Fanatec CS V3 Pedals, i improved my driving with changing the pedals and the G920 is useless in rFactor 2 as i can't feel when i lock up my brakes and the ffb is very weak in rf2, maybe like 0.5Nm of force. So next step is a DD base.
I have been using very good gear for a few weeks now. I can vouch though simracing with high end gear is not pay2win since I NEVER win 😭
I'm actually a bit more efficient/fast with my Heusinkveld Sprint pedals (over my T3Papro which were quite good...).
And I'm much more confident in my ability to stay on the black stuff with my SC2 pro (over my TX which I liked very much.).
It's very subtle, nothing to brag about, but in the long run, placebo effect or not, I think I'm a more consistent driver with this gear.
It's not, but if you're fast on a g27, and you can adapt to a better set of pedals and wheel which gives you quicker feedback and more consistent braking, then you might improve slightly. This may be the difference between p4 and p1