Hey Guys, this will be the last video of the year before I take a bit of a break over Christmas and the New Year, with videos resuming late January. Stay safe and have a great Christmas/New Year!
@@rytisvitenas5784 Most certainly! Main problem is finding the time for them, at the moment, so they are taking far longer to make than expected, sorry!
It's interesting that they generate so much downforce to the rear wheel also. I always thought that they help mainly keeping the front wheel down when accelerating and increase front tire grip when braking but it's also the another way around.
Winglets are primitive design and thinking... on street motorcycles they are mainly for show off On moto gp ducati bike wings arent used anymore as much as air curtains and ground effect wheel covers on the bottom half of the wheels Having wings doesnt make sense when cornering it will push the motorcycle to the outside of the corner... and any downforce device above wheel axis of rotation will be pushing the bike to lowside hence ducati wheel covers on the bottom half of the wheel.
what's interesting about bikes is that the rider has a massive influence on them. under braking, the nose dives quite a bit, which would greatly change the angle of the bike and aero surfaces. The rider hanging off also makes quite a big difference. I can only imagine how difficult it is trying to model the aero surrounding a rider as we have a million different riding positions
depends on your computing power and validation results, for engineering purposes most of the CFD - RANS applications are acceptable. however, when you consider the wing deflections and cases like where surface deformations actually play a role (take a look at anderson's aerodynamics book, it is explained nicely there how drag polar is affected by deflections of the wing) without the addition of structural elements (or chemical elements in hypersonics etc.) your fidelity will be reduced. however, if you can afford a dns around an aircraft (seems impossible until 2070-2080 but please prove me wrong) you will get the best results, which theoretically has higher fidelity even than those of wind tunnels.
@@BerkSarikaya DNS on an aircraft? Not going to happen probably ever, unless quantum computing will prove to be a breakthrough in this respect, but that's pure speculation at this point. The highest Reynolds DNS I ever saw was at a bulk Reynolds of about 150,000, and that was for a simple channel flow. The required mesh size for DNS scales as Re^3. If we assume a Moore's law doubling of transistor count every 4 years, then in 60 years supercomputers could do a Re of about 5x10^6 for simple channel flows. But airplanes are far more complicated than channels, and typical airplane Re are in the 20-80 x10^6 (at least for airliners / fighter jets). Also, Moore's law is rapidly coming to an end. There are now processors on the market with 7 nm technology, and the theoretical limit imposed by quantum mechanics is 4 nm. Now LES/DES on the other hand, that is very promising. I believe it was already demonstrated in application for full configuration air planes, and it can be more accurate than wind tunnel testing. I myself did a DES simulation for a submarine model at Re of O(10^9) and got results that pass right through experimental data points.
@@ASJC27 oh thats very nice! I also validated various flowfields over a fighter aircraft using standard RANS! A similar mesh size requirement is also present on LES I think, if I recall correctly it was Re^9/4. Similar to DNS, it is still a burden. However, maybe I should have said LES on aircrafts 2070 commercially; you are right about that. I think there is one DNS carried out at Re of about 100K in youtube over a 63012, but do not quote me on that. While I do not fully agree on your DNS thoughts (rather than considering cruise conditions, consider takeoff or landing parts of the mission maybe half an order less Re? and consider huge HPCs), I agree that we have still a long way to go in terms of computing power. However, with enough CPUs (looking at you top500 supercomputers) I believe there is some possibility but not commercially of course. I am unsure about commercial usage of LES outside of the wind turbines LOL
@@BerkSarikaya Ok, so what are these things? LES,DES,DNS,Re,RANS? And why does Kyle never talks about deformation of elements due to fast airflow or pressure differences due to temperature?
Very interesting! One thing you didn't touch on was why these wings were added to MotoGP bikes, main reason to combat high speed instability. Wind resistance at high speed acts like a lever on the bike and rider, causing a weight shift backwards. Combined with something close to 250 hp (meaning they are trying to wheelstand and flip even in top gear) and the front wheel has no weight on it at top speed. The result being those handlebar wobbles and weaving you see on the straights.
if I remember correctly, in your previous video you said that downforce on a motorcycle in a corner is actually undesirable. Because the bike is lent over in a corner, the 'downforce' is actually pushing the bike away from the apex. You didn't touch on that in this video. Is this also true and would that actually make it a good thing that the winglets produce less downforce in a corner? Nice video anyway and glad to have you back on youtube.
So I'm assuming the previous video we are both talking about is this one here: th-cam.com/video/Y3nEbwOTN3g/w-d-xo.html The main gist of that video is that as the bike leans over there is a component of downforce pushing out, like you said. However if the rider is hanging off the side (motogp style) the more upright angle of the bike with respect to the overall CG position at limit cornering grip means that the benefits of the vertical force being added on the tyre exceeds the negatives of the horizontal force (assuming the majority of downforce/lateral aero force is coming from the bike itself). If you have the bike laid down (motox style) then the opposite is true. Make sense? Worthwhile clarifying here that the downforce numbers I talk about in the video are true downforce (vertical with respect to the road, not the bike). Glad you enjoyed the video and glad to be back!
@@KYLEENGINEERS Makes a lot of sense! This is why winglets introduced in motogp produced a new riding stile, like Marquez, hanging off as much as they can in order to keep the center of gravity in the same place but with less roll angle, in order to add more vertical down force and less "centrifugal" wind force. The inconvenient of winglets, apart from drag and a more phisical riding style, is that tyres has much more stress to absorb and also the friction coefficient get reduced by adding weight so, is easier to "overload" a tyre, reaching the point where you have less grip instead of more.
One thing that is generally over looked in this top is what the wings are attached to. Simply attaching them to fairings wont be strong enough to support the downforce applied to them. Internal framework has to be added to support the wings. Great video, as usual.
Could you do an aero analysis of 3 types of winged cars. 1- drag car - all acceleration no turning? Grip? How does a wheelie bar effect grip or Downforce? 2- pikes peak fullycuston built car - they seem to be like 90% wing? How does the aero as their altitude increases! Does it drop? Boy how much 3 - a sprint car - all turning, super short and tall car, huge tyres, weird shaped big wings with sides.... very strange cars
Quick answers 1 - wheelies lose time. wheelie bars stop lost time when launching. 2 - yes, aero forces decrease with higher altitude, but so does drag... good question there! 3 - you will notice sprint cars have one up facing side and a downward facing side on their wings, I assume to create some downforce while travelling sideways, would love to know how much effect they have.
@@bruizey7319 thanks for the answers, On the drag car, what’s the balance of down force V’s drag for max accelerations? Why are they so long with so little or no front wing, they are very odd cars from a grip to downforce to weight balance perspective..... are they actually the most effective shame for accelerating or is it just a legacy shape? Would love to know what the most effective setup for acceleration is.... awd, traction, weight balance, aero. Given that active aero is not allowed for obvious reasons. So the most effective earo for going 0towhatever the quickest with no other considerations. On pikes peak it would be interesting to know from a driver if their is a difference they feel from the bottom to the top... a kiwi Motorsport channel on here has some great videos on the engineering of those cars but not the science of the aero and air at altitude. Sprint cars are so weird... like drag cars are they legacy? Or actually effective
@@zacka161 So, for the drag car, i'd see it as this. They are super long to prevent wheelies (though of course they also have wheelie bars), as the length creates effectively a long lever which requires considerably more force to lift the nose of an otherwise equal short car. The front end is kept really light though because weight reduction is more important. The small front wing in because there's no need for that end of the car to have almost any force pressing it down at speed, and thus a small, lower drag wing is sufficient. I'm fairly certain Top Fuel dragsters are in every way about as good as it gets for the length of drag race they run, but other lengths of race would likely be better with at least a different setup on the wing.
@@reaganharder1480 would 4WD drag car be better? I want what would be the best in an psyedo no rules scenario. I guess like what we see at Pikes Peak where there’s so much innovation and interesting things because of the lack of regulations within that class. Is there a different design of drag car that could be better?
@@zacka161 with no rules, i'd expect a 4wd system to be more weight than it's worth. Adding 4wd would mean you need another driveshaft running the full length of the car, as well as two additional differentials, which would all have to be strong enough to handle the immense power of the engine. You'd probably also need larger wheels up front, which would increase weight and drag. And when you're already accelerating fast enough to make wheelies a concern, there's likely not gonna be enough weight on the front wheels to be able to put much power there without spinning the wheels.
Currently building an active aero setup with winglets up front tied into braking and will provide roughly 10lbs of pressure at 80°, 140mph, and 30in² while in brake mode. I have zero knowledge about flow characteristics and wing design but electronics aside I have designed a wing and 3d printed them off for testing. What programs can I use that are cheap for modeling?
Hi Kyle, loving your channel! With the exploding popularity of overlanding (touring) in the USA, could you talk about and maybe look at how adding a rooftop tent affects aerodynamics. Both overall and in specific configurations IE: is it better to mount a tent on the roof of an SUV (increased frontal area) or on a short rack on the bed of a truck (or tray of a 'ute)? Even though these vehicles are not made for speed, I think these modifications (tents, big tires, off-road bumpers, etc) could be having a material impact on vehicle efficiency and safety even at just normal highway speeds. Keep up the fantastic work!
There was an update to iRacing recently which focused on wall proximity aerodynamics, it would be really cool if you have any input on the side force phenomenon when you get back from break
Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm thinking that, in corner, the wind has not to be considered aligned with the bike, but with an angle. You can imagine this thinking to driving a car, with open windows...if you turn right the wind will come in from the right side window and excape from the left one...just because you are inducing a lateral component. In order to calculate the angle you can have a good approximation considering that, with no side slip, a bike has a direct relation between roll angle, speed and turning radius. So, for a defined roll angle and a defined speed, you will have a specific turning radius. Nice video and really really interesting. Well done.
Interesting video but I'd like to see how rider position effects them too! Also the new "tyre cooling" winglets used by Ducati, Yamaha and Aprillia under the belly pan would also be interesting. Maybe just a visual/whiteboard video, not a CFD one.
I know it's not as sexy as performance cars/bikes but could you maybe explain some of the aero stuff on commercial trucks these days? Things like the vents on cab overs in Europ for example. I can not figure out the point of them. They are usually on the front cab corner and can be some sort of scoop, vent, or even vertical wing-like devices. They have no cooling elements or anything like that in them. Just a hole/ducting system from the front to the side of the truck cab and mounted right on the front corner. Usually just a bit below the windshield. We see them a bit here in the US as well. But cab overs are kind of rare. What I am seeing a lot of in the US are vortex generators on the trailing edges of the sleeper/cab. My assumption based on what I have learned from your other videos is that they would make a sort of wall to prevent air from pouring into the space between the cab and trailer. It is around a 12-15 inch gap to cross and there are usually a ton of vortex generators. I thought at first it was just some guy sticking them on the truck for his own amusement. But I am seeing them more and more often on company fleet trucks. Looks to be a factory option.
Hi Kyle, Fascinating channel. The winglets are an interesting subject for a bike. A car remains mostly flat in a corner, so the more downforce, the more the tyres are pushed into the tarmac and the greater the grip, the force vector is always essentially vertical.. But a GP bike is layed over to an astonishing degree when cornering. Wouldnt the downforce be resolved into 2 components, a vertical and a horizontal? Once the bike is past 45degrees, the horizontal component would be greater than the vertical and actually work to increase the likelyhood of a loss of traction.?
I hope you are doing more analysis on motorbike, especially the current motogp. There are some new concept being tested like downwash duct, ground effect side fairing, rear wing and swing arm aero device.
Hey Kyle ,XF motorsports is making a F1 car using a Mercedes S class V8 could you help him with active ground effect aero parts for his car or advice how to go about it . He is making a tube frame chassis .
Interesting video. Thank you. I note that some F1 cars have a serrated edge to the little windscreen such as the Aston Martin and I read that this was to reduce turbulence for the driver. Would such a top edge to a touring motorcycle screen reduce rider helmet buffeting? This is a frequent problem for riders and gives rise to endless discussions on choice of screen.
Since you used to be in FSAE team, could you do a video on how to design aero package from zero? Or most common mistakes you see on FSAE cars. And merry christmas
Great insight there, thanks! Could you have a look a the current complex WRC rally cars? Since 2017 they have had significant aero and even flat floor with diffusers. There are a couple of different solution from different teams.
More videos but this time 2020 Moto GP bikes vs Britten v1000 with aero and motoinnos ducati . Is there by any chance u have an engine and suspension engineer from F1 to look at Moto GP bikes. I wanted to see if F1 suspension system with a motorcycle version of a double wishbone suspension could be used for front and rear . Just to reduce wide open throttle induced wobble and massive wheel base length change while braking .
Just for kicks, would you model the bike in another video with a (smallish, lean friendly) wing over or even replacing the tail? Maybe one lined up over the rear tire and one that's got a bit of an overhang behind the main body of the bike. I want to see if wings on the rear of the bike would actually work or be an awful disaster that makes it draggy and unstable. Cheers, happy holidays!
It'd be interesting if there was a form of active aero that aims to achieve consistent downforce throughout the range of lean. I'm not sure how it would be implemented or controlled, and it'd probably be entirely impractical to do, but the mechanics and design behind it would be amazing.
How much load from downforce is pushing the motorcycle toward the outside of the turn during cornering? My assumption before aero became common in motoGP was that any downforce would just turn into aero pushing you toward the outside of the turn as lean angles get above 45 degrees (motoGP lean angles can exceed 60 degrees). Is the aero simply to prevent wheelies during acceleration and to keep the rear wheel on the ground during braking and does not benefit corners? I see a lot of motoGP bikes have their winglets angled downward, I am curious if they are relying on the slip angle of the motorcycle to reduce the angle of attack of the inside wing, thus reducing the outward component force.
Cornering is actually a very interesting case - is the added downforce actually beneficial? is it even significant taking into consideration how far riders hang off and stick out the knee?
Really interesting analysis. Thanks for keeping these videos coming. I'd be very interested in a Le Mans Hypercar or F1 2022 analysis. Another good one would be on the Sunracer EVs that race across the outback and how you think they could be improved. Merry Christmas from London, UK
Just in case I missed it, when I'm a turn, is the vector of downforce in line with the rider, or is it still perpendicular with the ground? If I'm line with the rider, maybe it's advantageous as it would reduce centrifugal forces from the aero
To-do-list for you: 1. Discuss the AMG Project One aero update to continue that series. 2. Go into WRC's new aero reliance and their trends. 3. Follow the trend and discuss F1. 4. Can you go further in-depth for streetbikes aero? I know you're reluctant to go to MotoGP, but there's a plethora of streetbikes for you to analyze, no? H2R, V4R, CBR, etc. Very happy you're now back! Hope Mercedes won't miss you too much, because I can't stand another 3 years without a video from you!
@@richardtickler8555 I mean just going over the rules changes as a pro, not necessarily analyzing the cars (though it'd be awesome!). Also, Kyle, you can also go over the demo runs (F1 Goodwood, Red Bull stunts, etc.)
What am I missing here? You keep calling it 'downforce' but with the bike leaned over it's resolved downforce (which whilst typing this I hear you did mention!!). What's more, as the bike goes past 45º then the 'vertical' (z) force, relative to the bike and not gravity/floor is now a larger component that effectively is pushing the bike away from the corner thus increasing the tyre loading requirement. I suppose that if the co-eff for tyres is 1.5 that even the resolved vertical downforce is beneficial due to that co-eff multiplier. It would be interesting to see if knee out actually stalls the flow to perhaps prevent this? I have always wondered why they haven't added subtle aero appendages to the rider/leathers/suit to capitalise on these. Must be a regs thing :)
Hey Kyle, just discovered your channel today and i really like it. I watched multiple videos where you analyse the aeros of different cars. I would be really interested what your take is on the upcoming rule F1 changes for 2022 is. I would be really interested in an analysis of the aerodynamics of the new concept. Im pretty new to aerodynamics or fluid dynamics in generell, so i would really like to see your analysis to understand the new concept better.
Hi Kyle, can you do a video on the solar cars in the ‘World Solar Challenge’ video for memory it was on seeker TH-cam channel & was talking about bullet shape vs twin hull. Aerodynamically would be interesting to look at as they would be trying to get the drag as low as possible to get the most efficient vehicle
Do you think that there is an aerodynamic reason for the holes on the back (rear side panels) like on the 2015-2020 Yamaha R1 or the Ducati Panigale V4/1299/1199? Or is it just for the looks? I think there might be a reason because of these vortices, created by the winglets, that push the flow upwardly. Thanks mate, GREAT video!
Hi Kyle, great video as always. I have had a question for a long time now that I can’t seem to get around. Why does air moisture condensate on the wing tips (vortice inducing) of both F1 cars and planes?
Once the motorcycle is leaning more than 45 degrees, wouldn’t lift be beneficial rather than downforce? The last thing a rider would want would be more force pushing to the outside of a corner. I couldn’t see anything in your aero modeling of the winglets that would help cornering. Is that because the winglets are not allowed in the rules to help cornering?
Do you ever use StarCCM or do you tend to stick to one software such as Openfoam and if yes why have you chosen this specific software ? Big fan of your videos keep up the amazing work and thanks for your insight!
Does it even make sense to analyse the leaned aerodynamics with the rider in normal position? I would assume that the hanging rider makes a huge aerodynamic difference
Hi Kyle, really enjoying your videos, Thanks. Would you know if the MotoGP teams would work with the riders to guide them on the most efficent body position for various stages of a lap - i.e minimising drag on the straights, and maximising downforce under braking and cornering?
Riders have understood these concepts for quite some time now, you will see them tuck in when accelerating and splay out when braking. They have a sense for speed and will naturally find the optimum body position to go as fast as possible, therefor im certain that any body positioning changes necessary with the introduction of wings will have been be quickly sniffed out by the rider himself.
@@alexjfree its true that there is a fair bit the riders will do intuitively, but I was watching a video about track cycling and the process they went through to optimise the riders aero position at various stages of a race. A lot of it was very subtle, some if it far from intuitive. I suspect that maximising downforce in cornering will be one area where it won't be intuitive. Hence the question, as it looks to me like a bit of science and engineering could make sure the benefits of the bike aero are realised.
@@JakobusVdL I personally think that the rider will make necessary adjustments without knowing he is dealing with downforce, as it effects the level of grip, a feeling for that grip and an ability to manipulate the bike to find the absolute most of it is what separates the motogp guys from the rest, however they are only human and so there will be some margin for error that could be ironed out. I think comparing it to the cycling example doesn't exactly work when you consider this, as the drag reduction being done in cycling would provide little to no feedback and therefor no way to feel your way into it (hope that makes sense). To answer your initial question though, I asked my mate who worked in motogp until very recently and he says that teams do wind tunnel testing to ensure the least amount of drag on the straights for instance but It's not as extensive as maximising downforce mid corner through the coaching of rider body positioning. I actually know of teams doing this outside of motogp also.
Cheers@@alexjfree , with cycling there is lots of feedback, they measure the riders power at the pedals, and speed to fractions of a kph. And as their watts are very limited, small improvements in aero efficiency make a big difference. With bikes, now they are designing the aero for downforce, I'd think the teams are missing a big trick if they are just leaving it to the riders to figure out how to get the most out of the downforce, after all while the riders are ridiculously talented, and might eventually figure it out, none of them grew up riding downforce bikes so thats not guaranteed. I'd think the smart engineering approach would be to use all the tools to help the rider figure out how to maximise the new technology, and help the engineers to figure out to design aero that riders can most easilly get the most out of. If that isn't happening, then there is huge opportunity for Kyle with a MotoGP team.
@@JakobusVdL I certainly see where ur coming from in terms of ensuring the downforce is at its most effective. We just have to remember at which stage of aero development motogp is at. F1 has paved the way so motogp has a path to follow in some respects and I expect it to catch up quickly. Whilst teams might not be doing everything they could be atm, I can bet they will be very soon. With regards to the cycling, I am a cyclist and dw I’ve spent plenty of time looking over my own data (maybe too much? Lol) however what I meant by feedback was more in terms of the feedback the bike delivers to the rider, this is commonly known as his feel. There is little feeling provided through any bike when u make small gains in drag reduction, however the changes in grip as downforce levels change will certainly be felt through the motorcycle. This was the reasoning behind my argument :)
Why dont they angle the winglets downward? The rider could stall the inner wing in a corner , and the force vector of the outer wing could be aimed at the contact patch.
When you realise that a motogp bike is 150kg before rider it makes an even bigger difference, am i right in thinking the long wheelbase of a mtogp bike ads to the aero effectiveness through better leverage?
Would love to see a video on your thoughts about the latest Ducati aero www.motorsportmagazine.com/articles/motorcycles/motogp/is-ducati-using-ground-effect-for-more-grip-in-motogp
If your findings are that there is "less upforce" above the bike (you mention the back of the saddle, more specifically), what makes you call it "more downforce" ? Don't you call it "downforce" for the single reason that you're looking for downforce ? I don't call it "downforce" however, but "less upforce"... Every object (be it a bike, a car, ...) moving over ground through air, at higher speed, generates underpressure zones above it : faster moving air on top creates underpressure there. However, as I told, I wouldn't call your findings "more downforce" but rather "less upforce (lift)". Let me call drag something like "underpressure at the back of the bike" ? Generally, underpressure forces pull with more effectiveness (i.e. harder) when located closer to the bike. If moved further away from the bike, they pull with less effectiveness (so with less force). I dare to state that those winglets are moving as much as possible all underpressure zones *away* from the bike in a controlled way, their main purpose being : to make the underpressure zones pull (backwards/upwards) with less effectiveness. The winglets move the underpressure zones away from the bike by means of the vortices they generate, and which you also mention. Unfortunately, vortices are air set in motion. And in physics, nothing comes for free : anything you set in motion, how little its mass, consumes energy. So does vortex generation. So vortices "cost" some energy loss (drag) indeed. BUT they cause the underpressure zones to be less effective in doing their "job", which is to pull the bike in the direction of the underpressure (hence less drag - the force pulling backwards - and less lift - the force pulling upwards). So I tend to state that such a winglet's main purpose is more to make the air flow in a controlled way around the bike, making a little "energy investment" by (OK, drag-causing) vortex generation, but getting this investment payed back multiple times by less overall drag at the end of the addition.
Great video as usually! If I'm not wrong, you didn't change the rider position in the analysis, did you? I'm not expert on the topic, but I feel that changing it would give significant results, with the driver knee reducing the lift of the internal wing, and maybe also increasing a bit the "ground effect". This, together with the fact that the wings are not generally on the same plane, would result in an increased vertical component and decreased centrifugal component , improving the cornering. Just an idea for an other video 😉
If you modeled the wings from the H2R, I imagine MotoGP bikes are at least twice as powerful. All brands have larghe wings next to the air intakes, they have at least one set of double-stacked wings on each side fairing. Ducati has added additional winglets on the bellypan this year! Pretty soon the bikes will be uglier than an F1 car!
to bad for such a missed opertunity. Instead of explaing stuff to lots of 'new to aero' viewers coming from bikes, this guy explains it like he does talking to a few intimate mates. Scrolling trough pictures like hell and and assuming where all at his level. Too bad for such a special topic.
Hey Guys, this will be the last video of the year before I take a bit of a break over Christmas and the New Year, with videos resuming late January. Stay safe and have a great Christmas/New Year!
Merry Christmas Kyle!
Merry Christmas!
happy holidays
Happy Holidays Kyle! Are you still planning to do the paid aero courses?
@@rytisvitenas5784 Most certainly! Main problem is finding the time for them, at the moment, so they are taking far longer to make than expected, sorry!
It's interesting that they generate so much downforce to the rear wheel also. I always thought that they help mainly keeping the front wheel down when accelerating and increase front tire grip when braking but it's also the another way around.
According to kyle, the newly created vortices interact with the seat resulting in more rear downforce.
im pretty sure you guys can make the most downforce.
Wow, wasn't expecting HPC on here!
I am as good as convinced that "less upforce" is interpreted as "more downforce" here...
Winglets are primitive design and thinking... on street motorcycles they are mainly for show off
On moto gp ducati bike wings arent used anymore as much as air curtains and ground effect wheel covers on the bottom half of the wheels
Having wings doesnt make sense when cornering it will push the motorcycle to the outside of the corner... and any downforce device above wheel axis of rotation will be pushing the bike to lowside hence ducati wheel covers on the bottom half of the wheel.
what's interesting about bikes is that the rider has a massive influence on them. under braking, the nose dives quite a bit, which would greatly change the angle of the bike and aero surfaces. The rider hanging off also makes quite a big difference. I can only imagine how difficult it is trying to model the aero surrounding a rider as we have a million different riding positions
That is one of the most interesting aero topics in motorsport. Thanks 👍
kyle, can you talk about how close CFD represent the reality?
Its a simulation.
depends on your computing power and validation results, for engineering purposes most of the CFD - RANS applications are acceptable. however, when you consider the wing deflections and cases like where surface deformations actually play a role (take a look at anderson's aerodynamics book, it is explained nicely there how drag polar is affected by deflections of the wing) without the addition of structural elements (or chemical elements in hypersonics etc.) your fidelity will be reduced. however, if you can afford a dns around an aircraft (seems impossible until 2070-2080 but please prove me wrong) you will get the best results, which theoretically has higher fidelity even than those of wind tunnels.
@@BerkSarikaya DNS on an aircraft? Not going to happen probably ever, unless quantum computing will prove to be a breakthrough in this respect, but that's pure speculation at this point.
The highest Reynolds DNS I ever saw was at a bulk Reynolds of about 150,000, and that was for a simple channel flow. The required mesh size for DNS scales as Re^3. If we assume a Moore's law doubling of transistor count every 4 years, then in 60 years supercomputers could do a Re of about 5x10^6 for simple channel flows. But airplanes are far more complicated than channels, and typical airplane Re are in the 20-80 x10^6 (at least for airliners / fighter jets). Also, Moore's law is rapidly coming to an end. There are now processors on the market with 7 nm technology, and the theoretical limit imposed by quantum mechanics is 4 nm.
Now LES/DES on the other hand, that is very promising. I believe it was already demonstrated in application for full configuration air planes, and it can be more accurate than wind tunnel testing. I myself did a DES simulation for a submarine model at Re of O(10^9) and got results that pass right through experimental data points.
@@ASJC27 oh thats very nice! I also validated various flowfields over a fighter aircraft using standard RANS! A similar mesh size requirement is also present on LES I think, if I recall correctly it was Re^9/4. Similar to DNS, it is still a burden. However, maybe I should have said LES on aircrafts 2070 commercially; you are right about that. I think there is one DNS carried out at Re of about 100K in youtube over a 63012, but do not quote me on that. While I do not fully agree on your DNS thoughts (rather than considering cruise conditions, consider takeoff or landing parts of the mission maybe half an order less Re? and consider huge HPCs), I agree that we have still a long way to go in terms of computing power. However, with enough CPUs (looking at you top500 supercomputers) I believe there is some possibility but not commercially of course. I am unsure about commercial usage of LES outside of the wind turbines LOL
@@BerkSarikaya Ok, so what are these things? LES,DES,DNS,Re,RANS? And why does Kyle never talks about deformation of elements due to fast airflow or pressure differences due to temperature?
Very interesting! One thing you didn't touch on was why these wings were added to MotoGP bikes, main reason to combat high speed instability.
Wind resistance at high speed acts like a lever on the bike and rider, causing a weight shift backwards. Combined with something close to 250 hp (meaning they are trying to wheelstand and flip even in top gear) and the front wheel has no weight on it at top speed. The result being those handlebar wobbles and weaving you see on the straights.
if I remember correctly, in your previous video you said that downforce on a motorcycle in a corner is actually undesirable. Because the bike is lent over in a corner, the 'downforce' is actually pushing the bike away from the apex. You didn't touch on that in this video. Is this also true and would that actually make it a good thing that the winglets produce less downforce in a corner? Nice video anyway and glad to have you back on youtube.
So I'm assuming the previous video we are both talking about is this one here: th-cam.com/video/Y3nEbwOTN3g/w-d-xo.html
The main gist of that video is that as the bike leans over there is a component of downforce pushing out, like you said. However if the rider is hanging off the side (motogp style) the more upright angle of the bike with respect to the overall CG position at limit cornering grip means that the benefits of the vertical force being added on the tyre exceeds the negatives of the horizontal force (assuming the majority of downforce/lateral aero force is coming from the bike itself). If you have the bike laid down (motox style) then the opposite is true. Make sense?
Worthwhile clarifying here that the downforce numbers I talk about in the video are true downforce (vertical with respect to the road, not the bike).
Glad you enjoyed the video and glad to be back!
@@KYLEENGINEERS Makes a lot of sense!
This is why winglets introduced in motogp produced a new riding stile, like Marquez, hanging off as much as they can in order to keep the center of gravity in the same place but with less roll angle, in order to add more vertical down force and less "centrifugal" wind force.
The inconvenient of winglets, apart from drag and a more phisical riding style, is that tyres has much more stress to absorb and also the friction coefficient get reduced by adding weight so, is easier to "overload" a tyre, reaching the point where you have less grip instead of more.
@@KYLEENGINEERS whats the name of the software?
One thing that is generally over looked in this top is what the wings are attached to. Simply attaching them to fairings wont be strong enough to support the downforce applied to them.
Internal framework has to be added to support the wings. Great video, as usual.
Could you do an aero analysis of 3 types of winged cars.
1- drag car - all acceleration no turning? Grip? How does a wheelie bar effect grip or Downforce?
2- pikes peak fullycuston built car - they seem to be like 90% wing? How does the aero as their altitude increases! Does it drop? Boy how much
3 - a sprint car - all turning, super short and tall car, huge tyres, weird shaped big wings with sides.... very strange cars
Quick answers
1 - wheelies lose time. wheelie bars stop lost time when launching.
2 - yes, aero forces decrease with higher altitude, but so does drag... good question there!
3 - you will notice sprint cars have one up facing side and a downward facing side on their wings, I assume to create some downforce while travelling sideways, would love to know how much effect they have.
@@bruizey7319 thanks for the answers,
On the drag car, what’s the balance of down force V’s drag for max accelerations? Why are they so long with so little or no front wing, they are very odd cars from a grip to downforce to weight balance perspective..... are they actually the most effective shame for accelerating or is it just a legacy shape? Would love to know what the most effective setup for acceleration is.... awd, traction, weight balance, aero. Given that active aero is not allowed for obvious reasons. So the most effective earo for going 0towhatever the quickest with no other considerations.
On pikes peak it would be interesting to know from a driver if their is a difference they feel from the bottom to the top... a kiwi Motorsport channel on here has some great videos on the engineering of those cars but not the science of the aero and air at altitude.
Sprint cars are so weird... like drag cars are they legacy? Or actually effective
@@zacka161 So, for the drag car, i'd see it as this. They are super long to prevent wheelies (though of course they also have wheelie bars), as the length creates effectively a long lever which requires considerably more force to lift the nose of an otherwise equal short car. The front end is kept really light though because weight reduction is more important. The small front wing in because there's no need for that end of the car to have almost any force pressing it down at speed, and thus a small, lower drag wing is sufficient. I'm fairly certain Top Fuel dragsters are in every way about as good as it gets for the length of drag race they run, but other lengths of race would likely be better with at least a different setup on the wing.
@@reaganharder1480 would 4WD drag car be better? I want what would be the best in an psyedo no rules scenario. I guess like what we see at Pikes Peak where there’s so much innovation and interesting things because of the lack of regulations within that class. Is there a different design of drag car that could be better?
@@zacka161 with no rules, i'd expect a 4wd system to be more weight than it's worth. Adding 4wd would mean you need another driveshaft running the full length of the car, as well as two additional differentials, which would all have to be strong enough to handle the immense power of the engine. You'd probably also need larger wheels up front, which would increase weight and drag. And when you're already accelerating fast enough to make wheelies a concern, there's likely not gonna be enough weight on the front wheels to be able to put much power there without spinning the wheels.
Currently building an active aero setup with winglets up front tied into braking and will provide roughly 10lbs of pressure at 80°, 140mph, and 30in² while in brake mode. I have zero knowledge about flow characteristics and wing design but electronics aside I have designed a wing and 3d printed them off for testing.
What programs can I use that are cheap for modeling?
been waiting anxiously 2 weeks for your next video :)) lovely work
He's BACK!
Hi Kyle, loving your channel! With the exploding popularity of overlanding (touring) in the USA, could you talk about and maybe look at how adding a rooftop tent affects aerodynamics. Both overall and in specific configurations
IE: is it better to mount a tent on the roof of an SUV (increased frontal area) or on a short rack on the bed of a truck (or tray of a 'ute)?
Even though these vehicles are not made for speed, I think these modifications (tents, big tires, off-road bumpers, etc) could be having a material impact on vehicle efficiency and safety even at just normal highway speeds.
Keep up the fantastic work!
There was an update to iRacing recently which focused on wall proximity aerodynamics, it would be really cool if you have any input on the side force phenomenon when you get back from break
I know it's not Motorsport, but any chance of a look at the differing boats in the Americas cup for this cycle?
Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm thinking that, in corner, the wind has not to be considered aligned with the bike, but with an angle.
You can imagine this thinking to driving a car, with open windows...if you turn right the wind will come in from the right side window and excape from the left one...just because you are inducing a lateral component.
In order to calculate the angle you can have a good approximation considering that, with no side slip, a bike has a direct relation between roll angle, speed and turning radius. So, for a defined roll angle and a defined speed, you will have a specific turning radius.
Nice video and really really interesting.
Well done.
Interesting video but I'd like to see how rider position effects them too! Also the new "tyre cooling" winglets used by Ducati, Yamaha and Aprillia under the belly pan would also be interesting. Maybe just a visual/whiteboard video, not a CFD one.
I also was hoping that the "coolers" would be touched on,,,
Otherwise, good video.
@@kissmyaskew9844 Coolers?
@@DJRD555 the same tire/tyre coolers you referenced,
Great video as usual mate. I often watch your videos in the background when doing physics homework. Gets me in the right frame of mind!
Very interesting and clear explenation! Espescially considering the developments in MotoGP these days... Keep up the good work, Kyle!
it was a very good video
have fun during the holidays
I know it's not as sexy as performance cars/bikes but could you maybe explain some of the aero stuff on commercial trucks these days? Things like the vents on cab overs in Europ for example. I can not figure out the point of them. They are usually on the front cab corner and can be some sort of scoop, vent, or even vertical wing-like devices. They have no cooling elements or anything like that in them. Just a hole/ducting system from the front to the side of the truck cab and mounted right on the front corner. Usually just a bit below the windshield. We see them a bit here in the US as well. But cab overs are kind of rare. What I am seeing a lot of in the US are vortex generators on the trailing edges of the sleeper/cab. My assumption based on what I have learned from your other videos is that they would make a sort of wall to prevent air from pouring into the space between the cab and trailer. It is around a 12-15 inch gap to cross and there are usually a ton of vortex generators. I thought at first it was just some guy sticking them on the truck for his own amusement. But I am seeing them more and more often on company fleet trucks. Looks to be a factory option.
Hi Kyle, Fascinating channel. The winglets are an interesting subject for a bike. A car remains mostly flat in a corner, so the more downforce, the more the tyres are pushed into the tarmac and the greater the grip, the force vector is always essentially vertical.. But a GP bike is layed over to an astonishing degree when cornering. Wouldnt the downforce be resolved into 2 components, a vertical and a horizontal? Once the bike is past 45degrees, the horizontal component would be greater than the vertical and actually work to increase the likelyhood of a loss of traction.?
What would happen if your where able to keep the winglet's parallel with the ground in turns?
Why?
I hope you are doing more analysis on motorbike, especially the current motogp. There are some new concept being tested like downwash duct, ground effect side fairing, rear wing and swing arm aero device.
Being more of a biker myself I always enjoined your videos but this one is especially close to my heart
Hey Kyle ,XF motorsports is making a F1 car using a Mercedes S class V8 could you help him with active ground effect aero parts for his car or advice how to go about it . He is making a tube frame chassis .
Interesting video. Thank you.
I note that some F1 cars have a serrated edge to the little windscreen such as the Aston Martin and I read that this was to reduce turbulence for the driver. Would such a top edge to a touring motorcycle screen reduce rider helmet buffeting? This is a frequent problem for riders and gives rise to endless discussions on choice of screen.
Hey Kyle, dyou think you could do a video on the Cybertruck's aerodynamics? Wpuld be interesting!
Since you used to be in FSAE team, could you do a video on how to design aero package from zero? Or most common mistakes you see on FSAE cars. And merry christmas
Hi, I have a Suggestion: How do Tiresizes, on a Car, effect Laptimes / Drag / Topspeed vs. Cornerspeed etc. Thanks Dude =)
could you explain how vortex under wing reduce drag plz? can i use same method on diffuser?
Could you review the Jesko’s aero please, it’d be very interesting to see!
Great insight there, thanks!
Could you have a look a the current complex WRC rally cars? Since 2017 they have had significant aero and even flat floor with diffusers. There are a couple of different solution from different teams.
More videos but this time 2020 Moto GP bikes vs Britten v1000 with aero and motoinnos ducati .
Is there by any chance u have an engine and suspension engineer from F1 to look at Moto GP bikes.
I wanted to see if F1 suspension system with a motorcycle version of a double wishbone suspension could be used for front and rear .
Just to reduce wide open throttle induced wobble and massive wheel base length change while braking .
Just for kicks, would you model the bike in another video with a (smallish, lean friendly) wing over or even replacing the tail? Maybe one lined up over the rear tire and one that's got a bit of an overhang behind the main body of the bike. I want to see if wings on the rear of the bike would actually work or be an awful disaster that makes it draggy and unstable. Cheers, happy holidays!
It'd be interesting if there was a form of active aero that aims to achieve consistent downforce throughout the range of lean. I'm not sure how it would be implemented or controlled, and it'd probably be entirely impractical to do, but the mechanics and design behind it would be amazing.
How much load from downforce is pushing the motorcycle toward the outside of the turn during cornering? My assumption before aero became common in motoGP was that any downforce would just turn into aero pushing you toward the outside of the turn as lean angles get above 45 degrees (motoGP lean angles can exceed 60 degrees). Is the aero simply to prevent wheelies during acceleration and to keep the rear wheel on the ground during braking and does not benefit corners? I see a lot of motoGP bikes have their winglets angled downward, I am curious if they are relying on the slip angle of the motorcycle to reduce the angle of attack of the inside wing, thus reducing the outward component force.
Cornering is actually a very interesting case - is the added downforce actually beneficial? is it even significant taking into consideration how far riders hang off and stick out the knee?
Really interesting analysis. Thanks for keeping these videos coming. I'd be very interested in a Le Mans Hypercar or F1 2022 analysis. Another good one would be on the Sunracer EVs that race across the outback and how you think they could be improved. Merry Christmas from London, UK
Just in case I missed it, when I'm a turn, is the vector of downforce in line with the rider, or is it still perpendicular with the ground? If I'm line with the rider, maybe it's advantageous as it would reduce centrifugal forces from the aero
In the case of turning, did you meassure downforce in Z axis or bikes axis?
Thank you for helping me win every youtube comment debate
To-do-list for you:
1. Discuss the AMG Project One aero update to continue that series.
2. Go into WRC's new aero reliance and their trends.
3. Follow the trend and discuss F1.
4. Can you go further in-depth for streetbikes aero? I know you're reluctant to go to MotoGP, but there's a plethora of streetbikes for you to analyze, no? H2R, V4R, CBR, etc.
Very happy you're now back! Hope Mercedes won't miss you too much, because I can't stand another 3 years without a video from you!
F1 probably wont happen cause he risks breachibg the nda
@@richardtickler8555 I mean just going over the rules changes as a pro, not necessarily analyzing the cars (though it'd be awesome!). Also, Kyle, you can also go over the demo runs (F1 Goodwood, Red Bull stunts, etc.)
@@richardtickler8555 ex f1 designers talk about aero all the time. zero harm in talking about the basics and breaking down competitors aero
@@powersliding agree but if i were him id wait a couple of years. especially now that theres a developement freeze going on
What am I missing here? You keep calling it 'downforce' but with the bike leaned over it's resolved downforce (which whilst typing this I hear you did mention!!). What's more, as the bike goes past 45º then the 'vertical' (z) force, relative to the bike and not gravity/floor is now a larger component that effectively is pushing the bike away from the corner thus increasing the tyre loading requirement.
I suppose that if the co-eff for tyres is 1.5 that even the resolved vertical downforce is beneficial due to that co-eff multiplier.
It would be interesting to see if knee out actually stalls the flow to perhaps prevent this?
I have always wondered why they haven't added subtle aero appendages to the rider/leathers/suit to capitalise on these. Must be a regs thing :)
Hey Kyle, just discovered your channel today and i really like it. I watched multiple videos where you analyse the aeros of different cars. I would be really interested what your take is on the upcoming rule F1 changes for 2022 is. I would be really interested in an analysis of the aerodynamics of the new concept. Im pretty new to aerodynamics or fluid dynamics in generell, so i would really like to see your analysis to understand the new concept better.
Hi Kyle, can you do a video on the solar cars in the ‘World Solar Challenge’ video for memory it was on seeker TH-cam channel & was talking about bullet shape vs twin hull. Aerodynamically would be interesting to look at as they would be trying to get the drag as low as possible to get the most efficient vehicle
Which Software do you use? (I expect not just one tho, as for why I thought I would ask.)
Do you think that there is an aerodynamic reason for the holes on the back (rear side panels) like on the 2015-2020 Yamaha R1 or the Ducati Panigale V4/1299/1199? Or is it just for the looks? I think there might be a reason because of these vortices, created by the winglets, that push the flow upwardly. Thanks mate, GREAT video!
Hi Kyle, great video as always. I have had a question for a long time now that I can’t seem to get around. Why does air moisture condensate on the wing tips (vortice inducing) of both F1 cars and planes?
Once the motorcycle is leaning more than 45 degrees, wouldn’t lift be beneficial rather than downforce? The last thing a rider would want would be more force pushing to the outside of a corner. I couldn’t see anything in your aero modeling of the winglets that would help cornering. Is that because the winglets are not allowed in the rules to help cornering?
Was just talking about this with my Dad yesterday Kyle
Where did you find this 3D model for motorbike and formula 1, when you do analysis?
Can you simulate 2021 f1 changes, how much downforce is lost
I want to know how much the under-swingarm winglet affect the overall bike downforce.
Talk about aerodynamics of papular cars on TH-cam like Leroy the savage , ruby , AWD 4 rotor etc ...
Great videos keep it up
Please more motorcycle topics or videos
Do you ever use StarCCM or do you tend to stick to one software such as Openfoam and if yes why have you chosen this specific software ? Big fan of your videos keep up the amazing work and thanks for your insight!
What hardware are you using for your CFD? i.e core count, memory, intel/amd. Graphics processing? Just curious, I really enjoy your videos!
Does it even make sense to analyse the leaned aerodynamics with the rider in normal position? I would assume that the hanging rider makes a huge aerodynamic difference
Hi, I been watching your cfd content and I have a doubt , do you use openfoam for your simulations?
Do you run your cfd in your own machine?
Hi Kyle, really enjoying your videos, Thanks.
Would you know if the MotoGP teams would work with the riders to guide them on the most efficent body position for various stages of a lap - i.e minimising drag on the straights, and maximising downforce under braking and cornering?
Riders have understood these concepts for quite some time now, you will see them tuck in when accelerating and splay out when braking. They have a sense for speed and will naturally find the optimum body position to go as fast as possible, therefor im certain that any body positioning changes necessary with the introduction of wings will have been be quickly sniffed out by the rider himself.
@@alexjfree its true that there is a fair bit the riders will do intuitively, but I was watching a video about track cycling and the process they went through to optimise the riders aero position at various stages of a race.
A lot of it was very subtle, some if it far from intuitive. I suspect that maximising downforce in cornering will be one area where it won't be intuitive.
Hence the question, as it looks to me like a bit of science and engineering could make sure the benefits of the bike aero are realised.
@@JakobusVdL I personally think that the rider will make necessary adjustments without knowing he is dealing with downforce, as it effects the level of grip, a feeling for that grip and an ability to manipulate the bike to find the absolute most of it is what separates the motogp guys from the rest, however they are only human and so there will be some margin for error that could be ironed out. I think comparing it to the cycling example doesn't exactly work when you consider this, as the drag reduction being done in cycling would provide little to no feedback and therefor no way to feel your way into it (hope that makes sense). To answer your initial question though, I asked my mate who worked in motogp until very recently and he says that teams do wind tunnel testing to ensure the least amount of drag on the straights for instance but It's not as extensive as maximising downforce mid corner through the coaching of rider body positioning. I actually know of teams doing this outside of motogp also.
Cheers@@alexjfree , with cycling there is lots of feedback, they measure the riders power at the pedals, and speed to fractions of a kph. And as their watts are very limited, small improvements in aero efficiency make a big difference.
With bikes, now they are designing the aero for downforce, I'd think the teams are missing a big trick if they are just leaving it to the riders to figure out how to get the most out of the downforce, after all while the riders are ridiculously talented, and might eventually figure it out, none of them grew up riding downforce bikes so thats not guaranteed. I'd think the smart engineering approach would be to use all the tools to help the rider figure out how to maximise the new technology, and help the engineers to figure out to design aero that riders can most easilly get the most out of.
If that isn't happening, then there is huge opportunity for Kyle with a MotoGP team.
@@JakobusVdL I certainly see where ur coming from in terms of ensuring the downforce is at its most effective. We just have to remember at which stage of aero development motogp is at. F1 has paved the way so motogp has a path to follow in some respects and I expect it to catch up quickly. Whilst teams might not be doing everything they could be atm, I can bet they will be very soon. With regards to the cycling, I am a cyclist and dw I’ve spent plenty of time looking over my own data (maybe too much? Lol) however what I meant by feedback was more in terms of the feedback the bike delivers to the rider, this is commonly known as his feel. There is little feeling provided through any bike when u make small gains in drag reduction, however the changes in grip as downforce levels change will certainly be felt through the motorcycle. This was the reasoning behind my argument :)
Why dont they angle the winglets downward? The rider could stall the inner wing in a corner , and the force vector of the outer wing could be aimed at the contact patch.
More of this!
When you realise that a motogp bike is 150kg before rider it makes an even bigger difference, am i right in thinking the long wheelbase of a mtogp bike ads to the aero effectiveness through better leverage?
Thanks.
shouldnt we take into consideration the totally different position the driver sits while cornering with the knee to the ground?
Would love to see a video on your thoughts about the latest Ducati aero www.motorsportmagazine.com/articles/motorcycles/motogp/is-ducati-using-ground-effect-for-more-grip-in-motogp
2:07 birb screm
If your findings are that there is "less upforce" above the bike (you mention the back of the saddle, more specifically), what makes you call it "more downforce" ? Don't you call it "downforce" for the single reason that you're looking for downforce ? I don't call it "downforce" however, but "less upforce"... Every object (be it a bike, a car, ...) moving over ground through air, at higher speed, generates underpressure zones above it : faster moving air on top creates underpressure there. However, as I told, I wouldn't call your findings "more downforce" but rather "less upforce (lift)".
Let me call drag something like "underpressure at the back of the bike" ? Generally, underpressure forces pull with more effectiveness (i.e. harder) when located closer to the bike. If moved further away from the bike, they pull with less effectiveness (so with less force).
I dare to state that those winglets are moving as much as possible all underpressure zones *away* from the bike in a controlled way, their main purpose being : to make the underpressure zones pull (backwards/upwards) with less effectiveness. The winglets move the underpressure zones away from the bike by means of the vortices they generate, and which you also mention. Unfortunately, vortices are air set in motion. And in physics, nothing comes for free : anything you set in motion, how little its mass, consumes energy. So does vortex generation. So vortices "cost" some energy loss (drag) indeed. BUT they cause the underpressure zones to be less effective in doing their "job", which is to pull the bike in the direction of the underpressure (hence less drag - the force pulling backwards - and less lift - the force pulling upwards).
So I tend to state that such a winglet's main purpose is more to make the air flow in a controlled way around the bike, making a little "energy investment" by (OK, drag-causing) vortex generation, but getting this investment payed back multiple times by less overall drag at the end of the addition.
Great video as usually!
If I'm not wrong, you didn't change the rider position in the analysis, did you?
I'm not expert on the topic, but I feel that changing it would give significant results, with the driver knee reducing the lift of the internal wing, and maybe also increasing a bit the "ground effect".
This, together with the fact that the wings are not generally on the same plane, would result in an increased vertical component and decreased centrifugal component , improving the cornering.
Just an idea for an other video 😉
If you modeled the wings from the H2R, I imagine MotoGP bikes are at least twice as powerful. All brands have larghe wings next to the air intakes, they have at least one set of double-stacked wings on each side fairing. Ducati has added additional winglets on the bellypan this year! Pretty soon the bikes will be uglier than an F1 car!
6 kilos of drag?
I believe he's referring to downforce. 6 kg of downforce
to bad for such a missed opertunity. Instead of explaing stuff to lots of 'new to aero' viewers coming from bikes, this guy explains it like he does talking to a few intimate mates. Scrolling trough pictures like hell and and assuming where all at his level. Too bad for such a special topic.
maybe you should stick to cars