The test of a character like River Song isn’t just whether the emotions of this episode hit you when you first watch it, it’s whether it hits you again when you rewatch it. Because watching this the first time, the tragedy of River is that she seems so sure she knows who the Doctor is but we’ve never seen her before, and instead of getting to know him, she opts to end her life. But she doesn’t see it as a loss, she seems to see it as the end of the journey, she’s so sure and so confident that the future he’ll have with her is so great it will make her sacrifice worth it. And for the Doctor and the audience, that just sounds wrong, but he’s powerless to stop her and has no choice but to watch and listen. The mystery and the tragedy and Kingston’s acting all come together to make this perfect scene. But we are going to find out. We are going to see that haircut and that suit, we are going to see whole armies turn and run away, we are going to see Darillium, that’s pretty much set in stone as events that are going to happen. So the test now is, when all is said and done, will this episode work the other way around? Does it work when we’ve seen it from River’s perspective and her journey? When the mystery is removed and all River’s secrets laid bare, does this episode work as well with the knowledge as when you had none? Some people don’t like River, I also have a lot of criticisms of the character. But at the core of her is this essential experience you’re looking to have from both points of view in this episode and I think Moffat absolutely nailed it. Even if all the details don’t line up, even if the idea wasn’t perfectly executed, knowing exactly what River’s relationship with the Doctor was and how it lead her to this point does not diminish the weight or the tragedy of these episodes. And, thankfully, it enhances them. You know why Ten’s “Who are you?” hurt her so badly. You know what she means by an unfinished picture. And you know why she is so willing to sacrifice herself in the end, just as you knew that in every River Song story, it was always going to lead here. In the hands of a lesser writer, this two parter could end up seriously wounded if River was completely butchered. You just would not care about their story if you know it ends up with something pointless or terrible, and that’s a big problem when it rests at the heart of these two episodes. But Moffat accomplished his mission and made sure that this episode was enjoyable on a first watch and when you come back to it. Whatever his other faults as a writer, and he has them, he pulled off one of the most ambitious long term projects in Sci Fi TV.
7:22 Not that it was shown much here - except for nearer the end 😂- but Tate’s performance in this scene is absolutely top tier. The sheer terror, horror and panic in her voice when she bends down and discovers “her children” are gone is something that I don’t think I’ve seen any other actress replicate in all my years since. Doctor Who didn’t ever really scare me, Blink probably being the notable exception but Catherine’s guttural, instinctual, motherly cries in this scene? Yeah, they terrified me to my core. The same with her scream as she was trapped in between teleportation systems in the last episode, JFC did her screaming make me deathly afraid of rewatching this episode for weeks afterwards. And really, it’s not _that_ important of a scene on paper, but she absolutely transforms it into something you’ll never forget. Even though Donna doesn’t have much to do in this two parter, one of the few criticisms you could levy at it, her arc of realising the Libraryverse isn’t real still hits because her realising the world isn’t real inevitably leads to those children she’s grown to care for disappearing right in front of her. When she accepts the reality, she loses what she treasured most, even if she didn’t have them for wrong, she makes you feel the loss nevertheless. It’s kind of the opposite of what happens after the 4,022 people are saved because she assumes Lee was part of the Library but he was one of the people trapped there too, who the Dr Moon had tried to hook up to make them less questioning of their environment. He was perfect for her but she goes out of there believing he never existed. Which is doubly tragic because not too long from now, Donna will lose her memories so, even if Lee somehow did find her again, she wouldn’t recognise him. Idk guys I think these episodes might be really layered and well written or something, but I’m just spitting idk tho. 😂😂
2:20 Was the music from this scene ever released? The soft, sad choir here just making very basic sounds that also somehow sound like the backing to the most tragic thing you’ve ever heard is honestly one of my favourite of Murray’s work. It doesn’t even last very long but it stayed with me for years and years as just a very simple but powerful and effective piece of music. The closest I’ve gotten to finding is the opening to ‘Song for Ten,’ but the choir in that is more - and there’s no way to try and describe this in text without looking silly lmao - “Oooooooo, oooo ooooo, aahhhhh,” whereas in this scene it’s “ehhhhhh, a aaaaa a aaaa, de de.” To my knowledge it’s never been separately released and, if so, that is a crime because it’s probably my favourite musical piece of all New Who. I don’t think it is the best but it’s definitely the one I remember the most.
shame you got recommended to me, since your opinion is objectively wrong, judging that it's one of the best episodes even IMDb considers Silence of the Library to be 6th best and Forest of the Dead (its sequel) 3rd best
If y’all wondering what River whispered to the doctor she supposedly whispered his real name so he knows he atleast knows her really well
The test of a character like River Song isn’t just whether the emotions of this episode hit you when you first watch it, it’s whether it hits you again when you rewatch it.
Because watching this the first time, the tragedy of River is that she seems so sure she knows who the Doctor is but we’ve never seen her before, and instead of getting to know him, she opts to end her life. But she doesn’t see it as a loss, she seems to see it as the end of the journey, she’s so sure and so confident that the future he’ll have with her is so great it will make her sacrifice worth it. And for the Doctor and the audience, that just sounds wrong, but he’s powerless to stop her and has no choice but to watch and listen.
The mystery and the tragedy and Kingston’s acting all come together to make this perfect scene.
But we are going to find out. We are going to see that haircut and that suit, we are going to see whole armies turn and run away, we are going to see Darillium, that’s pretty much set in stone as events that are going to happen. So the test now is, when all is said and done, will this episode work the other way around? Does it work when we’ve seen it from River’s perspective and her journey? When the mystery is removed and all River’s secrets laid bare, does this episode work as well with the knowledge as when you had none?
Some people don’t like River, I also have a lot of criticisms of the character. But at the core of her is this essential experience you’re looking to have from both points of view in this episode and I think Moffat absolutely nailed it. Even if all the details don’t line up, even if the idea wasn’t perfectly executed, knowing exactly what River’s relationship with the Doctor was and how it lead her to this point does not diminish the weight or the tragedy of these episodes. And, thankfully, it enhances them. You know why Ten’s “Who are you?” hurt her so badly. You know what she means by an unfinished picture. And you know why she is so willing to sacrifice herself in the end, just as you knew that in every River Song story, it was always going to lead here.
In the hands of a lesser writer, this two parter could end up seriously wounded if River was completely butchered. You just would not care about their story if you know it ends up with something pointless or terrible, and that’s a big problem when it rests at the heart of these two episodes. But Moffat accomplished his mission and made sure that this episode was enjoyable on a first watch and when you come back to it. Whatever his other faults as a writer, and he has them, he pulled off one of the most ambitious long term projects in Sci Fi TV.
Testament to Moffat's writing but also Alex Kingston bcos jesus christ she pulls that off despite having no context.
3:29 really made me laugh
7:22
Not that it was shown much here - except for nearer the end 😂- but Tate’s performance in this scene is absolutely top tier. The sheer terror, horror and panic in her voice when she bends down and discovers “her children” are gone is something that I don’t think I’ve seen any other actress replicate in all my years since. Doctor Who didn’t ever really scare me, Blink probably being the notable exception but Catherine’s guttural, instinctual, motherly cries in this scene? Yeah, they terrified me to my core. The same with her scream as she was trapped in between teleportation systems in the last episode, JFC did her screaming make me deathly afraid of rewatching this episode for weeks afterwards.
And really, it’s not _that_ important of a scene on paper, but she absolutely transforms it into something you’ll never forget. Even though Donna doesn’t have much to do in this two parter, one of the few criticisms you could levy at it, her arc of realising the Libraryverse isn’t real still hits because her realising the world isn’t real inevitably leads to those children she’s grown to care for disappearing right in front of her. When she accepts the reality, she loses what she treasured most, even if she didn’t have them for wrong, she makes you feel the loss nevertheless.
It’s kind of the opposite of what happens after the 4,022 people are saved because she assumes Lee was part of the Library but he was one of the people trapped there too, who the Dr Moon had tried to hook up to make them less questioning of their environment. He was perfect for her but she goes out of there believing he never existed. Which is doubly tragic because not too long from now, Donna will lose her memories so, even if Lee somehow did find her again, she wouldn’t recognise him.
Idk guys I think these episodes might be really layered and well written or something, but I’m just spitting idk tho. 😂😂
2:20
Was the music from this scene ever released? The soft, sad choir here just making very basic sounds that also somehow sound like the backing to the most tragic thing you’ve ever heard is honestly one of my favourite of Murray’s work. It doesn’t even last very long but it stayed with me for years and years as just a very simple but powerful and effective piece of music.
The closest I’ve gotten to finding is the opening to ‘Song for Ten,’ but the choir in that is more - and there’s no way to try and describe this in text without looking silly lmao - “Oooooooo, oooo ooooo, aahhhhh,” whereas in this scene it’s “ehhhhhh, a aaaaa a aaaa, de de.”
To my knowledge it’s never been separately released and, if so, that is a crime because it’s probably my favourite musical piece of all New Who. I don’t think it is the best but it’s definitely the one I remember the most.
Join us in the #murraygoldreleaseallurmusicucoward!
Forest of the dead is one of the best
To clarify, we are the Worst of the Worst (the group name). The episodes are bangers.
@@RyanDishon you shouldn't be that hard on yourselves
@@brewster_4yes we should
shame you got recommended to me, since your opinion is objectively wrong, judging that it's one of the best episodes
even IMDb considers Silence of the Library to be 6th best and Forest of the Dead (its sequel) 3rd best
To clarify, we are the Worst of the Worst (the group name). The episodes are bangers.
@@RyanDishon ohhh
the title is very misleading