Thanks for making videos with great content. Graham and Jesco is a power duo. Experience, knowledge, passion, hard work and commitment. Can’t wait for the next one.
I’ve consulted music city acoustics about my own room with regards to room treatment and have also learned a great deal from acoustic insider. This video is the next step for me.
Very interesting discussion. Square rooms are just no fun for acoustic balance. People always complain how they've spent thousands on absorption, yet hear little improvement. I always recommend large false wall panels 4" from the real wall to essentially "reframe" the geometry of the room, addressing the room modes and and standing waves. This also secures a healthy air gap built into the room.
I hope you also took measurements of viable in-between installations in stages (e.g., only the front wall and one ceiling cloud; additions of sides; additions of gobos in back and full ceiling). Looking forward to ep. 3
The big panels behind him have 3 sheets of 6” Rockwool in them. Here in the uk they are between £41 - £52 a pack of 6. So that’s 2 of them panels. At a guess he’s got 20 panels. So that’s 10 packs of rockwool + lumber.. & the fabric is quite cheap when you buy more.
Is there a rigid backing on these panels? Is there any benefit to building the air gap into the panel (basically thicker construction of sides but rear still open) or is it better to make the panel as thick as the absorption material and then just mount it with an air-gap? I guess they are much of the same thing but one would cut down on material?
The backs of the panels just have a fabric covering. A rigid backing would reduce their effectiveness particularly in the low mid and low frequencies. You're exactly right, the biggest difference between building an air gap into the panels frame vs a panel with matching frame/insulation depth installed with an air gap primarily just affects the material cost of the panels. Acoustically, there is actually a slight benefit to having the open space in the air gap but it is pretty minimal.
I make bass heavy electronic music like house and techno and hip hop. I also thought the most sensible option to start by tacking the hardest bit (the low end frequencies) buying the thickest absorbers that I can afford and as many as I can since only that will take care of the low end but it will also provide broadband absorption across the frequency range? In the UK GIK acoustics do a soffit bass traps which are a £275 cuboid shape 400mm thick and made for the corners of rooms and I might need 4 or 8 of them. Is that the best solution? There's also the tri trap option. Or am I better just corner mounting a 160mm monster bass trap across the corners which only cost £120 each. I could get 18 x 160mm monster bass traps for the price of 8 x 400mm soffit corner traps which would cover the whole room. However, it might be a false economy if i buy monster bass traps for the corner and find they don't control the bass well enough so I need to get soffit traps anyway and get rid of the monster bass traps in the corners. Or I could get 4 of the 400mm soffit bass traps and spend the rest on 160mm monster bass traps. From what I can see on www.acousticmodelling.com/porous.php 160mm barely seems to touch below 100hz but 400mm really does. Or am I missing the cumulative effect of multiple panels?
You mention the corner traps being placed in a spot with most air velocity. What does that mean actually? Isn't air velocity in sound always highest the further you get from the walls?
Thank you for these acoustic treatment videos with measurements made with REW. Does the porous filling of the panels that pass through the air flow have in kPa∙s / m2? In the 4th video can you put the Group Delay, ETC, Clarity C50? written with translator Greetings
Loving the videos! I was a bit surprised that your corner traps straddle the corners and leave a gap - I was always under the impression that corner traps were completely filled. I've read elsewhere that in corners the air gap matters much less. Should air gaps behind panels always equal the panel thickness? Is that a hard/fast rule?
Super-chunks (completely filling the corner) are a very common corner treatment so that might be where you've seen that but with porous absorbers, air gaps matter in every application. In the corners pressure builds up because we have two or three converging boundaries but porous absorbers work off of air particle movement and it is slowest at the boundaries. That is why air gaps improve porous absorber performance. No - that is a good starting point but as you can see in our design we did not follow it, when it came to the corners and you'll see more of this in Video 3. As the air gap increases relative to panel depth there is the potential for a reduction in performance at higher frequencies but if our main goal is to effectively absorb low frequencies with a particular panel then it is an easy trade off.
The wall/ceiling corner traps are installed at 45°. The front wall corner traps are at 30° to match the angle of the speakers. Ultimately, the angle doesn't matter that much; the real key to corner traps being helpful is the air gap between the panels and the boundaries (walls or ceiling).
@MusicCityAcoustics thanks for the answer.. one follow up would be how big would you want that air gap to be? Cos would that not determine the size of the panels you put in the corners? Is it something that can/should be calculated? I am assuming it would be room dependent? Or would it more be a case of how much space you physically have to work with?
@@jareddavis6373 The bigger the air gap, the more effective the panels will be at absorbing low frequencies. You can see this happen in part 4 of this series when we test different air gaps for the rear wall Gobos. There are some drawbacks to making the air gap to big, as it will cause a drop in mid-frequency performance, but oftentimes, it is a worthy trade-off. You can technically calculate the best placement for a specific frequency, but there is rarely a need to. With porous absorbers, the ideal position would be the are in the room where the frequency you are targeting has the highest velocity. We can calculate this, but it is different for every frequency, and porous absorbers are broadband in nature, so there is no need to get too specific.
@MusicCityAcoustics great thanks for the info.. I did watch episode 4 regarding the gobos , just wasn't sure if the same applied to corners. Thanks again for a great series.
Great video. Do you guys offer just consulting and acoustic design services? I have the means to build my own panels, but would really be interested in you guys helping me design the room.
16:12 Traps behind the speakers would move the speakers and listening position away from the front wall. Is it worth the trade off? Speaker right at the front wall would yield a better response curve.
You really want to be hearing the speakers not the bounce off. There will be a distance depending on the speaker & where it’s ported as to how tight the sound is & how far it is from the wall. But that is very specific based off each speaker & you can’t say until tested.
What you're referring to is commonly called a "superchunk", which is basically just material in a triangular shape, framed. In short, more material will absorb more, but it is still best to have an air gap from the wall to the material so that the energy can leave the material, reflect off the wall behind it, and be absorbed back into the material again. I'm building two superchunks for my front wall corners, can't go ceiling to floor because I ordered one less box than I needed, but will have 60" superchunks. I will install them mid way with french cleats. I've had to cut each insulation sheet into triangles, and stack them 2" at a time. It's a much longer process and more $, but it will be worth it. I'll have about a 2" gap behind, which any gap is better than no gap. Hope this helps. Jesco has a good video on this: th-cam.com/video/7RvBw1YAjCo/w-d-xo.html
@@jonathanmulumba6514 That is to dense. Fluffy wool 10-15 kg/m3 is the way to go, 6" of depth is minimum, and around 8" is ideal. Also, it's much cheaper.
You talk a lot about symmetry being good. I have a highly irregular attic space with multiple angled ceiling components in 140 yr old Victorian house. My frequency response is lumpy, but I kind of think that I get a LOT of diffusion because of really irregular reflections?
Are the front corner panels as they are superior in some way to having had the corner completely filled ala ‘super chunk’ style? Is it better to have air or mass?
i prefer the superchunks from my measurements, but the idea is that with a thick panel straddling the corner and an air gap behind it, you can get a lot of the same effect witch far less material. you can use Porous Absorber Calculator to model what things might look like-in particular, the way the curve changes in low frequency as you mess with the depth and/or air gap. you’ll notice weird things start to happen if you make the air gap larger than the thickness of the panel, but look what’s happening if you add thickness in 2” increments while keeping the air gap the same.
It depends on the size of the super chunks compared to the panels but the short answer is yes. Super-chunks put a lot of the insulation material directly up against the boundary of the corners where there is very little air particle movement. This doesn't allow them to work effectively. The other primary factor is their size. 4lb and 6lb density mineral wool products shouldn't be stacked in depths beyond 10 or 12", this in turne prevents you from being able to build a super chunk with the size needed to work well at low frequencies. After trying and testing just about every combination you can think of, we've found a combination of rigid insulation (mineral wool or 703/705) mixed with light weigh fluffy insulation provides the best results.
@@MusicCityAcoustics What is the reason(s) mineral wool shouldn't be used in depths beyond about 10"? When you talk about a trap consisting of multiple absorption materials, are you strictly referring to larger traps? At what depth do you even consider using more than 1 material? Thanks for taking the time!
Why not put slats on everything if it’s a mixing/tracking room? Or maybe better question is where would u not want to put the slats panels in a mixing/tracking room? For vocals and guitar..
i personally would avoid placing slats on areas of first reflections, i dont know the exact science on where to put them, but id avoid places that you can see the speakers from the listening position with a mirror on the wall. take this with a grain of salt as i am still new to acoustics
GIK makes custom tuned bass traps by request.... If you contact them with details of your room including measurements, they will be able to tell you exactly how many of those custom tuned traps you'd have to buy and according to Harmon's Room Mode Calculator, they'd be evenly distributed throughout the room placed on-wall at 2ft and 6ft measured from the floor. The traps aren't cheap but they work exactly as marketed on their website.
I've got 16 panels in my room. It's a hobby. I build my own. Without these videos I would not be where I am today. Thanks Graham and Jesco!
Thanks for making videos with great content. Graham and Jesco is a power duo. Experience, knowledge, passion, hard work and commitment. Can’t wait for the next one.
I’ve consulted music city acoustics about my own room with regards to room treatment and have also learned a great deal from acoustic insider. This video is the next step for me.
These videos kick ass. They really give a much more realistic feel for what results can be expected and for how much. Great job guys thanks
Amazing video!! Thanks so much for sharing all the details and for both of your expertise!
Thank you both for sharing your knowledge and expertise. Fantastic video!👏👏
Thanks for the great inside.
Thanks so much for watching!
Very interesting discussion. Square rooms are just no fun for acoustic balance. People always complain how they've spent thousands on absorption, yet hear little improvement. I always recommend large false wall panels 4" from the real wall to essentially "reframe" the geometry of the room, addressing the room modes and and standing waves. This also secures a healthy air gap built into the room.
Loving the gobo style / design
I would love to see something like this for a live or drum tracking room. I'm not sure what diffusion absorption ratio to start at.
I hope you also took measurements of viable in-between installations in stages (e.g., only the front wall and one ceiling cloud; additions of sides; additions of gobos in back and full ceiling). Looking forward to ep. 3
Just wait for the 3rd and 4th videos! We took all sorts of measurements.
What was the cost of all the treatment? Just wondering, as most people with a home studio probably don't have thousands of dollars to spend.
The big panels behind him have 3 sheets of 6” Rockwool in them.
Here in the uk they are between £41 - £52 a pack of 6.
So that’s 2 of them panels.
At a guess he’s got 20 panels.
So that’s 10 packs of rockwool + lumber..
& the fabric is quite cheap when you buy more.
Is there a rigid backing on these panels? Is there any benefit to building the air gap into the panel (basically thicker construction of sides but rear still open) or is it better to make the panel as thick as the absorption material and then just mount it with an air-gap? I guess they are much of the same thing but one would cut down on material?
The backs of the panels just have a fabric covering. A rigid backing would reduce their effectiveness particularly in the low mid and low frequencies. You're exactly right, the biggest difference between building an air gap into the panels frame vs a panel with matching frame/insulation depth installed with an air gap primarily just affects the material cost of the panels. Acoustically, there is actually a slight benefit to having the open space in the air gap but it is pretty minimal.
I make bass heavy electronic music like house and techno and hip hop. I also thought the most sensible option to start by tacking the hardest bit (the low end frequencies) buying the thickest absorbers that I can afford and as many as I can since only that will take care of the low end but it will also provide broadband absorption across the frequency range? In the UK GIK acoustics do a soffit bass traps which are a £275 cuboid shape 400mm thick and made for the corners of rooms and I might need 4 or 8 of them. Is that the best solution? There's also the tri trap option. Or am I better just corner mounting a 160mm monster bass trap across the corners which only cost £120 each. I could get 18 x 160mm monster bass traps for the price of 8 x 400mm soffit corner traps which would cover the whole room. However, it might be a false economy if i buy monster bass traps for the corner and find they don't control the bass well enough so I need to get soffit traps anyway and get rid of the monster bass traps in the corners. Or I could get 4 of the 400mm soffit bass traps and spend the rest on 160mm monster bass traps. From what I can see on www.acousticmodelling.com/porous.php 160mm barely seems to touch below 100hz but 400mm really does. Or am I missing the cumulative effect of multiple panels?
Such a nice video, a lot of info... 🤝
Thanks for this quality content. Can you hear less noise in the next room(or flat below) when music is played loud after the room treatment? Thanks
Kill all frequencies, then add back some mid to high end with scattering....got it!
Basically that’s this approach!
& it’s the better option in smaller spaces
You mention the corner traps being placed in a spot with most air velocity. What does that mean actually? Isn't air velocity in sound always highest the further you get from the walls?
Nice info thanks!
Thank you for these acoustic treatment videos with measurements made with REW.
Does the porous filling of the panels that pass through the air flow have in kPa∙s / m2?
In the 4th video can you put the Group Delay, ETC, Clarity C50?
written with translator
Greetings
Loving the videos! I was a bit surprised that your corner traps straddle the corners and leave a gap - I was always under the impression that corner traps were completely filled. I've read elsewhere that in corners the air gap matters much less.
Should air gaps behind panels always equal the panel thickness? Is that a hard/fast rule?
Super-chunks (completely filling the corner) are a very common corner treatment so that might be where you've seen that but with porous absorbers, air gaps matter in every application. In the corners pressure builds up because we have two or three converging boundaries but porous absorbers work off of air particle movement and it is slowest at the boundaries. That is why air gaps improve porous absorber performance.
No - that is a good starting point but as you can see in our design we did not follow it, when it came to the corners and you'll see more of this in Video 3. As the air gap increases relative to panel depth there is the potential for a reduction in performance at higher frequencies but if our main goal is to effectively absorb low frequencies with a particular panel then it is an easy trade off.
At what angles are you putting the ceiling corner/bass traps at? 45 degrees or something different like 30/60 degrees? does this matter?
The wall/ceiling corner traps are installed at 45°. The front wall corner traps are at 30° to match the angle of the speakers. Ultimately, the angle doesn't matter that much; the real key to corner traps being helpful is the air gap between the panels and the boundaries (walls or ceiling).
@MusicCityAcoustics thanks for the answer.. one follow up would be how big would you want that air gap to be? Cos would that not determine the size of the panels you put in the corners? Is it something that can/should be calculated? I am assuming it would be room dependent? Or would it more be a case of how much space you physically have to work with?
@@jareddavis6373 The bigger the air gap, the more effective the panels will be at absorbing low frequencies. You can see this happen in part 4 of this series when we test different air gaps for the rear wall Gobos.
There are some drawbacks to making the air gap to big, as it will cause a drop in mid-frequency performance, but oftentimes, it is a worthy trade-off.
You can technically calculate the best placement for a specific frequency, but there is rarely a need to. With porous absorbers, the ideal position would be the are in the room where the frequency you are targeting has the highest velocity. We can calculate this, but it is different for every frequency, and porous absorbers are broadband in nature, so there is no need to get too specific.
@MusicCityAcoustics great thanks for the info.. I did watch episode 4 regarding the gobos , just wasn't sure if the same applied to corners. Thanks again for a great series.
Great video. Do you guys offer just consulting and acoustic design services? I have the means to build my own panels, but would really be interested in you guys helping me design the room.
Hi Jeff, shoot me an email at Graham@MusicCityAcoustics.com when you get a chance, and we can talk more about working on the design!
Thanks for sharing, now I don’t need to order from there anymore, I can just build my own.
On your homepage you don´t mention what the Broadband Acoustic Panels are made of, foam?
Rockwool..
It’s the standard..
now the could have a Sonopan board & then an air gap & 4” rockwool.
Most likely just rockwool
16:12 Traps behind the speakers would move the speakers and listening position away from the front wall. Is it worth the trade off? Speaker right at the front wall would yield a better response curve.
You really want to be hearing the speakers not the bounce off.
There will be a distance depending on the speaker & where it’s ported as to how tight the sound is & how far it is from the wall.
But that is very specific based off each speaker & you can’t say until tested.
Are panels that cross corners better than soffits that fill the corner?
Well. I'm asking myself the same question. 🙂
Should we put flat panels accross the corners or should we fill corners completely?
What you're referring to is commonly called a "superchunk", which is basically just material in a triangular shape, framed. In short, more material will absorb more, but it is still best to have an air gap from the wall to the material so that the energy can leave the material, reflect off the wall behind it, and be absorbed back into the material again. I'm building two superchunks for my front wall corners, can't go ceiling to floor because I ordered one less box than I needed, but will have 60" superchunks. I will install them mid way with french cleats. I've had to cut each insulation sheet into triangles, and stack them 2" at a time. It's a much longer process and more $, but it will be worth it. I'll have about a 2" gap behind, which any gap is better than no gap. Hope this helps.
Jesco has a good video on this: th-cam.com/video/7RvBw1YAjCo/w-d-xo.html
@@koenvanmeerbeekwhich ever is more material I’d assume
How easy is it to install downlights in an acoustic panel on the ceiling?
this is Acoustics??? cool
How do I learn what type of material is used inside the panels?
Most probably rockwoll with 45kg/m3 density
@@jonathanmulumba6514 That is to dense. Fluffy wool 10-15 kg/m3 is the way to go, 6" of depth is minimum, and around 8" is ideal. Also, it's much cheaper.
@@pecacartun for broadband absorber or bass traps?
You talk a lot about symmetry being good. I have a highly irregular attic space with multiple angled ceiling components in 140 yr old Victorian house. My frequency response is lumpy, but I kind of think that I get a LOT of diffusion because of really irregular reflections?
There’s a vid yesco did about this, that angles don’t really add benefit.,, but who knows
Irregular is great for listening rooms.
But for mixing & studios the more symmetrical the better as it’s controllable.
But anything will work
Keep Hearing Road Noise .
Are the front corner panels as they are superior in some way to having had the corner completely filled ala ‘super chunk’ style? Is it better to have air or mass?
i prefer the superchunks from my measurements, but the idea is that with a thick panel straddling the corner and an air gap behind it, you can get a lot of the same effect witch far less material. you can use Porous Absorber Calculator to model what things might look like-in particular, the way the curve changes in low frequency as you mess with the depth and/or air gap. you’ll notice weird things start to happen if you make the air gap larger than the thickness of the panel, but look what’s happening if you add thickness in 2” increments while keeping the air gap the same.
It depends on the size of the super chunks compared to the panels but the short answer is yes. Super-chunks put a lot of the insulation material directly up against the boundary of the corners where there is very little air particle movement. This doesn't allow them to work effectively. The other primary factor is their size. 4lb and 6lb density mineral wool products shouldn't be stacked in depths beyond 10 or 12", this in turne prevents you from being able to build a super chunk with the size needed to work well at low frequencies.
After trying and testing just about every combination you can think of, we've found a combination of rigid insulation (mineral wool or 703/705) mixed with light weigh fluffy insulation provides the best results.
@@MusicCityAcoustics What is the reason(s) mineral wool shouldn't be used in depths beyond about 10"?
When you talk about a trap consisting of multiple absorption materials, are you strictly referring to larger traps? At what depth do you even consider using more than 1 material?
Thanks for taking the time!
Why not put slats on everything if it’s a mixing/tracking room? Or maybe better question is where would u not want to put the slats panels in a mixing/tracking room? For vocals and guitar..
i personally would avoid placing slats on areas of first reflections, i dont know the exact science on where to put them, but id avoid places that you can see the speakers from the listening position with a mirror on the wall. take this with a grain of salt as i am still new to acoustics
It is recommended that you avoid installing where the early reflection is within 15 ms.
@@BierMeister360no that seems accurate, is what he wast sayin
“8 foot ceiling has a huge booming 140hz response”. Checks my room. Yep. 138hz. I’m already $2k into Owen’s Corning and still. 138. It’s hopeless
GIK makes custom tuned bass traps by request.... If you contact them with details of your room including measurements, they will be able to tell you exactly how many of those custom tuned traps you'd have to buy and according to Harmon's Room Mode Calculator, they'd be evenly distributed throughout the room placed on-wall at 2ft and 6ft measured from the floor.
The traps aren't cheap but they work exactly as marketed on their website.
Great video, but I didn't get why there's no floor treatment. Some rug would be also beneficial. You didn't cover this aspect at all.
Probably not needed - rugs will absorb high frequences only, and too much absorbtion can make a recording room sound dull and muted.
@@kw9172 Yes, what he said, this is also covered in an acoustic insider TH-cam video, basically carpets are bad and absorb only high frequencies etc.
𝐩𝐫𝐨𝐦𝐨𝐬𝐦 💦