One of the most important audio illustration videos I have EVER seen posted on YT! The acoustic changes you made, explained, and illustrated, were completely jaw dropping. A+ excellent video Ron.
this is without a doubt, one of the BEST video tutorials I have seen on TH-cam. Not only are you providing valuable information that some have spent thousands of dollars to obtain for free, you are providing an education to those of us that have been into this hobby for decades, and I can't count the "ah-ha" moments that I encountered. Case in point, your shaker test moving around the head/mic alerted me to the fact that somehow during many of my equipment swaps, I had switched my XLR outputs going to my Kali desk monitors! I thought I was hearing drum fills (that I knew very well) going in the wrong direction but I don't make mistakes when plugging in gear! 🤣 I also just completed my first rough soundstaging moves with my mains while watching your LOTS video and all I can say is----THANK YOU!!!! No exaggeration, I haven't heard what my small room could do until I got done with moving my mains away from the wall and actually creating a space for them to perform. Just incredible stuff!
Awesome, Ron. I’m kind of hoping maybe you are applying treatment in stages in subsequent videos to show others the differences it can make as you address certain aspects as opposed to just throwing everything you’ve got into the room at once. Most people will say they can’t or don’t want to do room treatment because of the aesthetic appearance or a significant other. You can go a long way by simply adding certain types of aesthetically pleasing panels to key areas without having to go whole hog such as addressing a handful of key areas of the front wall and first reflection point. Going beyond that, like you and I have done, is the icing on the cake and ultimate performance. But it’s hitting key areas that can get you a long, long way.
@@fredferiz7391 Hey there. As Ron’s videos are pointing out, you want to get rid of echo and flutter and he’s shown in his series ways you can do that to reduce reflections around the room through objects, absorbers and diffusion. Key areas would then be tackling the first reflection points if you’re going for better soundstage and imaging. That goes a long way. I simply use 24” x 24” absorption panels at those points and it goes a long way. I can even take those down when we have people over if needed. Then, I have found that if the side walls to the left and right of your room are within somewhat close proximity to the listening position, getting a couple panels directly to the sides of you makes a big difference as well. I don’t have a wall behind my sitting listening position but if I did you would want to try and absorb or break up the reflections off the wall. All of that right there goes a long way to more resolution and better soundstage and imaging. Of course you can go from there and tackle more bass absorption as Ron points out in his video series which unmasks more resolution and you can add diffusion or absorption to the front wall behind the speakers to get more gains as well. But in my experience if someone doesn’t want to go all-out you can go a long way by just reducing echo, getting those first reflection points and quieting the area around the listening position if you want to achieve better resolution and soundstage.
Hi, this was an excellent primer (ha ha paint joke) for the rest of the series, I'm looking forward to working through the rest of them. We're a custom audio/video/automation dealer in Toronto, Canada. It's a slow process encouraging customers to look at their room before they invest more in equipment but the payoff is always there. The room is just as important as your gear. Regarding soundproofing and your "room within a room" design, that is of course highly recommended and you're absolutely right to go down that road. One approach that can improve your room isolation even more without adding any additional cost is to use a wider floor plate for your framing and stagger the vertical 2x4s. So use a 2x6 floor (and ceiling) plate, then stagger your studs so they alternate front edge and and back edge of the wider floor plate. That gives you a completely uncoupled interior wall from your exterior surface and can really help prevent noise in and out. Your cost increase is minimal but you do lose a few inches of floor space in all dimensions. Keep up the great work!
One word: Outstanding. Excited to see Parts 2, 3 and 4. For us novices to room acoustics and treatment of existing rooms with furniture, this series is astonishingly valuable in understanding what to treat. Will be measuring my room with REW in coming week so I can follow alongside your recommendations and treatments. LGHJR
@@egis7908 I got my Solen order in today! I'd shelved the idea of getting a UMK-1 for later, this first video put me right over the edge. Very excited to see just how bad my room is. I've some _terrible_ slap echo side to side of my listening point. I have some acoustic foam for it, but haven't put together the oomph to stick it to a medium and wall hang it. I think this series will finally get me there. :) :) :)
@@NightFlight1973 check out all the webinars by Anthony Grimani on Audioholics (if you can bear watching Gene della Salla at the same time) and on AVProEdge. Expertise on Acoustics, Atmos setup and Bass management
Finally a Channel where the good Hifi content is published. More Acoustic & Measurements Videos and less Gear talk. Acoustics are everything. Its an very complex topic but worth every minute and money. Are you planning to install an Singel or Double Bass Array and Bafflewall ? Thats one of the best ways to avoid standing waves and to get one of the clean & best sounding lowend
@@Newrecordday2013 perfect 👍 a friend of mine build up a Array (2 Subs in the front, 2 in the back) DIY with miniDSP and Genelec 8341 as front and its (for me) by far the best sounding system ive ever heard - Details, Punch, Lowend everything is there. Of course he hasinstalled a 10k professionall Acoustic ceiling wich makes a big difference but paired with an Bass that has nearly unlimited lows, punch & spl. A system that can everthing good. I use neumann speakers and their MA1 System wich is also awesome for a very fair price. (2x KH150 & 2x KH750 Subs)
Well done. This video (and the ones that follow) can be used as irrefutable evidence that room treatment is the best upgrade for anyone serious about sound quality. Too many high end guys think it's either not needed or (ironically) deleterious for the best listening experience.
The combination of absorbers on the ceiling, some rugs and room correction, has helped my room a lot. If I was single, things would probably get much more involved with more diffusionon the walls underlay under rugs, absorbing curtains.
Im listening to this in a fully treated room through some PMC tower speakers. Like yourself I have been on a little journey the past 4/5 years increasing the treatment after measurements as I went along. Its totally addictive. Far more enjoyable than buying new equipment. My latest improvement was a while back when I increased the depth of the whole front and back walls to 45cm deep. Side walls and ceiling are 15cm deep, with added diffusion. Really enjoy your videos on acoustics. Your room looks and sounds great : )
Very well made, I've been taking measurements and playing some music before treating my room, but life taking much time off the project, it's been a few years already, and the room isn't finished yet! Not sure I'll find all the files when I'm done. I can hear every bit off change very well, and looking forward too hearing the next steps. Thanks heaps.
33:37 If you take just the segment between the lower and upper roll offs, draw a line at the average/mean height for both lines, you would see that the lower line is not flatter. It has greater variation than the line above, especially at the higher frequencies. It is however, a lower volume, overall.
This was really awesome, I am not an audio engineer, but this was very interesting and I appreciated the practical demonstration on how to achieve better results at home...
How did you choose your listening position for purposes of taking measurements? I have watched a couple of videos that cover the process of finding the optimal listening position in a room prior to implementing room treatment. Did you take this step? Did you pick your listening position based on conventional thought? Did you pick it in some other fashion? I have yet to watch parts 3-5 of this series so you may answer the question in one of those videos.
I really appreciate your hard works, and yes it’s not easy for a simple data collection and comparison. I’m not an audiophile, I’m still learning. This is my thought to share from the comparison (base to sound, not from graph/data). I like the sound ambient from furnished room, rather than empty room. Furnished room creates much softer and smooth sound. Stereo effect is much clearer. Very much opposite sound ambient from empty room, with little echo. Definitely this is due to full sound wave reflection. If you try cover (or just hang) a thick fabrics on all side of walls (and ceiling as well if possible), I think we will experience much better sound clarity. (note: I’ve use earphone connected to DAC adaptor USB type-C to listen your audio). Waiting to see more videos. Thanks again.
This is a fantastic series and in fact I would call it important. To systematically break down these steps with audio samples and measurements will provide a truly unique window for many people including myself.
Fantastic video Ron. As you say at the end in your final thoughts, the semi-furnished room is at a barely listenable level acoustically. That being said, the little furniture you put in there along with the carpets really made a staggering difference. Great to be able to compare it side-by-side like this. I can see myself pointing other people in the direction of this video series in the future when someone asks about room treatment. Keep up the great work!
I agree, but I hope most people are clever enough to notice that the room even after he put a few things in it is still a far cry from even the average living room, in terms of density/amount of furniture and objects, and has far more reverb than the average living room. The speakers being so far from the wall is also not typical, and while some disagree, to me it is not ideal. Most speakers are designed to be a certain distance from the wall, say 1-2 feet typically, maybe 3ft rarely - probably 18" on average - and when they're pulled out further, among other things (like a much more delayed front wall reflection adding to the sense of reverb and smearing) a drop in the bass below say 200hz or so depending on the speaker. Most speakers baffle step compensation is tuned to work with the assumed distance listed above, not 10 feet. Can you compensate for this or design/tune speakers to be used this way? Sure. Could it have other benefits that outweigh the cons subjectively, if the bass response is compensated for? Perhaps. But this is not typical nor is it in accordance with the intended design parameters, and I very much like having my speakers closer to the wall. Open baffle speakers will always benefit from some more space, but typical loudspeakers do not - essentially ALL recording studios, including the very best ones, do not do this, so your mixes are not even made like this but rather with very good monitor speakers close to a wall, sometimes even built into it. Subs aside, if we're talking 2 channel or even mains above 80hz, getting 3 or 6db of wall reinforcement for the bass below ~200hz will mean less cone travel for a given spl and that has benefits in terms of various kinds of distortion/linearity - and again, (relatively untreated) front wall reflection time is not going to blend well with the primary sound, whereas a baffle that's say 18" from the front wall is going to blend right in, and all the sound from the front is going to arrive at essentially the same time from a perception standpoint, and only the side walls/back wall are going to be delayed which is much more natural and psychoacoustically decipherable and "expected" by the ear - you'll get clearer dialogue for instance. Of course, after he treats the front wall, that probably won't be an issue (I'm sure), but for the average room it would be. My living room is 10x as dead as his "furnished" shed... partly because most people don't have like 15ft vaulted ceilings or whatever, nor that much square footage. That's a lot of space and drywall! And like any good living room (for listening), the whole thing is carpeted, it's not just rugs. I have carpet AND rugs, and way more density and variety of furniture and random stuff that acts like diffusion and absorption. It's certainly nowhere near a second of decay time, probably less than half a second. I do have REW and a UMIK-1 so I should measure it. But it's practically imperceptible. I hope he plays around with how much absorption he uses, because subjectively (studies and anecdotes show) too dead of a room is not preferable either, and will certainly narrow your perceived soundstage, along with seeming less natural as it is not what the ear expects, psychoacoustically (with the visual stimuli or knowledge of the space you're in). If we wanted dead spaces, we'd listen to headphones.... but we're into speakers and spaces. And that very much includes a certain level of room interaction. Most speakers require it, which is why (as erin's audio corner shows) the dispersion characteristics of speakers is so important... it's not just about the on-axis response, but how the response changes (or ideally, doesn't change) off-axis, and thus how the timbre of the reflected sound compares to and blends with the on-axis sound. In a totally dead room, you're only going to hear the on-axis sound equivalent to looking at anechoic or klippel measurements, and speakers are not typically intended to be heard in an anechoic chamber. I'm sure Ron knows this, just pointing it out.
@@Artcore103 Many valid points. I was mostly referring to the stark contrast between the unfurnished vs. somewhat furnished room. It is all too common to see listening rooms with barely anything in them, paired with sub-par placement of the speakers and people asking "Why does it sound so boomy / flat / dry / fatiguing?". I'm sure most people dedicated enough to the hobby to spend 30 minutes watching an in-depth video like this already have more than a cursory understanding of how things "should be".
@@Artcore103 @Patraquashe You both made some solid points and observations. I was concerned that, with the lack of "stuff" in the room, this particular video might feel like a setup. This was certainly not my intention. Because this is a dedicated room and not a typical living room that's being used part-time for listening, I chose to use as much real estate as possible for acoustic treatment. In the event where this was a room occupied by others (family or spouse), I would have brought in more couches and "stuff" to help close the gap, as @Artcore has done. Appreciate the commentary and stay tuned. Oh, while you aren't wrong about your comments on speaker placement, it's purely subjective for what I'm listening for and what my goals are. There are indeed locations in the room that objectively look better on paper. I am always listening for as much depth and width as possible, so pulling the speakers deep into the room is typically my go-to.
Hi Ron, I wish you the best of luck with your acoustic room treatment. Although I now have my listening room extensively treated to provide tip top sound quality, it was a very long, difficult and expensive struggle. Just sticking a few panels on each wall won't cut the mustard.
Exciting subjects, not going to lie you startled me when it transferred to "This is my voice from the left rear listening position" the drastic change was really noted
love the video Ron! I spent a fair amount of time also treating my room and using REW to get the best placement for speakers and subs and the differences are significant. It amazes me how other audio review channels, especially the ones reviewing ultra high end gear, will not run something as simple as REW to determine how a specific speaker is behaving.
Thank you Ron for making this video! First one I have seen that explains how, what and why of using REW for beginners, like myself. Can’t wait for the next installment!
Hi Ron, absolutey valuable guide, thanks for all of your hard work! It would be great to have all these room acoustics videos and the LOTS video added to a playlist in your channel 🙏
I'm so jealous ! Your untreated room response is far better than my treated room with optimal speaker placement etc. The decay time is crazy though and got better with just the furnishings. Looking forward to the final results...
Don't know why, but your right channel is my left channel, using Schiit DAC & headphone Amp and Senhizer HD800s. The best way of showing a nontech guy like me how to do this, thank you for your insight to do this.
@@Newrecordday2013 Preceding demos with the binaural head seemed to be right and left, but were never designated as such. I had ordered a pair of Spatial Audio speakers before Clayton became ill and never got them.
Hi Ron, what a wonderful job you're doin. You certainly help all those music lovers enjoy listening to beautiful sound. Great regard to you and your channel!
Watched this vid all the way through, and I suggest everyone does. Ron was just being polite….lol. Ron, this was such an absolutely fantastic video. Possibly one of the most helpful vids you’ve made, and you’ve made a lotta good ones, man. 100% top notch all the way through. I’ve no doubt you’ll have yourself one heck of a listening room there. I look forward to watching this journey. Thank you. 👍🔊😊🎶
Great video as always Ron. Those first measurements where really throwing me off. I was confused as to why you had such a drop in highs starting at 4khz. Like -15db. But....i think its because im not used to seeing measurements in an incredibly reflective space. Most untreated(but furnished) rooms have a ton more bass then anything else. That empty room has so much energy, that your frequency response looks fairly flat below the high frequencies....LOL. Goes to show you why FR(without decay) alone can be deceiving. Looking forward to the rest of the videos.
Fantastic, thanks Ron for the time and effort you are putting into this. Will, or should be THE reference video for setting up a listening or movie room.
Superb video, Ron. And so timely as I will completely remodel my room including moving a certain wall if needed. Measuring and treatments will follow. Am going to tell my audio friends to watch this video series. I use db apps on my phone but wonder about their accuracy as they differ from each other. Have you checked your TOPTES device against any spl apps?
Ron excellent work on the listening room. Your passion for detail along with your quest for the best I believe exceeds anyone’s expectations. I am glad you are continuing on for further improvements which is great. Of the three factors you are dealing with, the construction of the listening area is great already. The second factor contains too many variables, which is each individuals own hearing which is probably why there are so many different types of equipment out there. The third and this is by no means a complaint is the medium sound traveling through (air). The temperature and humidity will have an impact on the sound being transmitted all be it small or not worth investigating. This is no disrespect to you but I do know it will possibly have an impact. Seeing as it is a listening room the variation in range of heat and humidity should be small. I believe that will be several videos down the road if you address it at all. Believe me I am not trying to be a wise (A) or nit-pick. for I love music also.
This is great. Would it be possible to do a quick recap on the next video, using chop cuts from empty to furnished, as you moved from the corners and to the sides of the mic? I was really hoping to hear a near side by side comparison of your voice before and after laying the rug down and adding the book shelves, without a 15 minute gap between tests. Does my request make sense... not sure if I am explaining it correctly. I think it would show a glaring difference. Maybe even continue that trend as you add treatments? I can't wait for part 2!!!
Great Job and as @egis7908 said Outstanding! You didn't disappoint and as many others have said I can't wait for Parts 2, 3, and 4. Glad to see Randy back again as well. Thanks.
I'm really looking forward to the rest of this series! Just turned my photo studio into (also) a listening room but the reverb is possibly worse than where you started, so I'm about to learn something 🙂. Thanks man!
A couple of questions for ya. What is the size of the room? How far into the room are the speakers? How far is the "listener" from the speakers? Thanks in advance.
Very simple empty room occupied large amount of Air when any sound appears it mixed with large cavity causes Sound reverb or doubling always it requires some materials which it would help the air to be float in a proper manner we can called as acoustic treatment Any how thanks for your knowledge
Good play leaving the volume alone so we hear the difference. I have unexpectedly leapt back into the room acoustics thing (in addition to and because of the speaker build evolution I'm in) and the changes in volume between versions/stages has been many dB, and dynamics have swung from wimpy burger to PA system... Acoustics is a crazy fun sport.
THIS SERIES IS AWESOME. I had to subscribe. I like the really detailed and easy to follow demos, perfectly followable rew measurements and interpretation. I would wish that you at some point also would compare dsp vs room treatment and combination.
You could have installed a ducted mini-split. The unit would sit above the ceiling and is ducted through registers. The air handlers are compact and I’ve seen where people seal the room with Sheet rock, install the units below the sheet rock and install another sheet rock ceiling below that which also has the supply and return registers in it. That way you still have a sealed room but a ducted unit above the ceiling is quite a bit quieter. Especially if the contractor does some tricks to limit the fan noise coming through the registers.
wow, it does almost make me want to get a set of open baffles! Very clean, natural sound. Now I assume these need to be far from walls and away from other gear, thats the only rub for me.
Thank you for your hard work. Really amazing video thanks to your qualitative down to earth approach. Extremely valuable learnings and looking forward watching the next parts. Thanks again!
Ron Thanks for the great effort. I’m looking forward to seeing the incremental improvements to the sound quality as treatments are added. I do have one question. Did you see any differences in the measured response between the two speakers? I am curious if the in room reverberations between the two speakers are different since they load the room differently. Again Thanks.
The furnishings did nothing for the bass "room boom" but did make speech easier to understand and the transients sharper. I found the differences between the Criton's and X4's more pronounced in the empty space.
One of the most important audio illustration videos I have EVER seen posted on YT! The acoustic changes you made, explained, and illustrated, were completely jaw dropping. A+ excellent video Ron.
Wow thanks!
I disagree
this is without a doubt, one of the BEST video tutorials I have seen on TH-cam. Not only are you providing valuable information that some have spent thousands of dollars to obtain for free, you are providing an education to those of us that have been into this hobby for decades, and I can't count the "ah-ha" moments that I encountered. Case in point, your shaker test moving around the head/mic alerted me to the fact that somehow during many of my equipment swaps, I had switched my XLR outputs going to my Kali desk monitors! I thought I was hearing drum fills (that I knew very well) going in the wrong direction but I don't make mistakes when plugging in gear! 🤣 I also just completed my first rough soundstaging moves with my mains while watching your LOTS video and all I can say is----THANK YOU!!!! No exaggeration, I haven't heard what my small room could do until I got done with moving my mains away from the wall and actually creating a space for them to perform. Just incredible stuff!
Wow! What an incredibly thoughtful comment!
Awesome, Ron. I’m kind of hoping maybe you are applying treatment in stages in subsequent videos to show others the differences it can make as you address certain aspects as opposed to just throwing everything you’ve got into the room at once. Most people will say they can’t or don’t want to do room treatment because of the aesthetic appearance or a significant other. You can go a long way by simply adding certain types of aesthetically pleasing panels to key areas without having to go whole hog such as addressing a handful of key areas of the front wall and first reflection point. Going beyond that, like you and I have done, is the icing on the cake and ultimate performance. But it’s hitting key areas that can get you a long, long way.
That’s the exact plan my man!
Hey Sean i was reading your comment and i have one question for you,maybe you can help me. How to detect key areas and to place panels?
@@fredferiz7391 Hey there. As Ron’s videos are pointing out, you want to get rid of echo and flutter and he’s shown in his series ways you can do that to reduce reflections around the room through objects, absorbers and diffusion. Key areas would then be tackling the first reflection points if you’re going for better soundstage and imaging. That goes a long way. I simply use 24” x 24” absorption panels at those points and it goes a long way. I can even take those down when we have people over if needed. Then, I have found that if the side walls to the left and right of your room are within somewhat close proximity to the listening position, getting a couple panels directly to the sides of you makes a big difference as well. I don’t have a wall behind my sitting listening position but if I did you would want to try and absorb or break up the reflections off the wall. All of that right there goes a long way to more resolution and better soundstage and imaging. Of course you can go from there and tackle more bass absorption as Ron points out in his video series which unmasks more resolution and you can add diffusion or absorption to the front wall behind the speakers to get more gains as well. But in my experience if someone doesn’t want to go all-out you can go a long way by just reducing echo, getting those first reflection points and quieting the area around the listening position if you want to achieve better resolution and soundstage.
Hi, this was an excellent primer (ha ha paint joke) for the rest of the series, I'm looking forward to working through the rest of them.
We're a custom audio/video/automation dealer in Toronto, Canada. It's a slow process encouraging customers to look at their room before they invest more in equipment but the payoff is always there. The room is just as important as your gear.
Regarding soundproofing and your "room within a room" design, that is of course highly recommended and you're absolutely right to go down that road. One approach that can improve your room isolation even more without adding any additional cost is to use a wider floor plate for your framing and stagger the vertical 2x4s. So use a 2x6 floor (and ceiling) plate, then stagger your studs so they alternate front edge and and back edge of the wider floor plate. That gives you a completely uncoupled interior wall from your exterior surface and can really help prevent noise in and out. Your cost increase is minimal but you do lose a few inches of floor space in all dimensions.
Keep up the great work!
One word: Outstanding. Excited to see Parts 2, 3 and 4. For us novices to room acoustics and treatment of existing rooms with furniture, this series is astonishingly valuable in understanding what to treat. Will be measuring my room with REW in coming week so I can follow alongside your recommendations and treatments. LGHJR
Heck yeah!
There goes all the UMIK-1 stock! I got mine at solen canada for cheaper than amazon.
@@NightFlight1973 luckily I own a unit. Be happy to loan it out!!
@@egis7908 I got my Solen order in today! I'd shelved the idea of getting a UMK-1 for later, this first video put me right over the edge. Very excited to see just how bad my room is. I've some _terrible_ slap echo side to side of my listening point. I have some acoustic foam for it, but haven't put together the oomph to stick it to a medium and wall hang it. I think this series will finally get me there. :) :) :)
@@NightFlight1973 check out all the webinars by Anthony Grimani on Audioholics (if you can bear watching Gene della Salla at the same time) and on AVProEdge. Expertise on Acoustics, Atmos setup and Bass management
Finally a Channel where the good Hifi content is published. More Acoustic & Measurements Videos and less Gear talk. Acoustics are everything. Its an very complex topic but worth every minute and money.
Are you planning to install an Singel or Double Bass Array and Bafflewall ? Thats one of the best ways to avoid standing waves and to get one of the clean & best sounding lowend
Wow, thanks! I’ll be unpacking a lot of thoughts about bass and techniques in the next video! Hang tight! I got you.
@@Newrecordday2013 perfect 👍 a friend of mine build up a Array (2 Subs in the front, 2 in the back) DIY with miniDSP and Genelec 8341 as front and its (for me) by far the best sounding system ive ever heard - Details, Punch, Lowend everything is there. Of course he hasinstalled a 10k professionall Acoustic ceiling wich makes a big difference but paired with an Bass that has nearly unlimited lows, punch & spl. A system that can everthing good.
I use neumann speakers and their MA1 System wich is also awesome for a very fair price. (2x KH150 & 2x KH750 Subs)
Well done. This video (and the ones that follow) can be used as irrefutable evidence that room treatment is the best upgrade for anyone serious about sound quality. Too many high end guys think it's either not needed or (ironically) deleterious for the best listening experience.
Thank you so much John! Huge fan of your channel and appreciate it!
The combination of absorbers on the ceiling, some rugs and room correction, has helped my room a lot. If I was single, things would probably get much more involved with more diffusionon the walls underlay under rugs, absorbing curtains.
Im listening to this in a fully treated room through some PMC tower speakers. Like yourself I have been on a little journey the past 4/5 years increasing the treatment after measurements as I went along. Its totally addictive. Far more enjoyable than buying new equipment. My latest improvement was a while back when I increased the depth of the whole front and back walls to 45cm deep. Side walls and ceiling are 15cm deep, with added diffusion. Really enjoy your videos on acoustics. Your room looks and sounds great : )
Thanks!
Ron, you’ve done us all a great service with the thought, planning and numerous resources you’ve invested in this series.
Very well made, I've been taking measurements and playing some music before treating my room, but life taking much time off the project, it's been a few years already, and the room isn't finished yet! Not sure I'll find all the files when I'm done. I can hear every bit off change very well, and looking forward too hearing the next steps. Thanks heaps.
Man !!! Those open baffles sound insane ❤
Right?!
33:37 If you take just the segment between the lower and upper roll offs, draw a line at the average/mean height for both lines, you would see that the lower line is not flatter. It has greater variation than the line above, especially at the higher frequencies. It is however, a lower volume, overall.
This was really awesome, I am not an audio engineer, but this was very interesting and I appreciated the practical demonstration on how to achieve better results at home...
How did you choose your listening position for purposes of taking measurements?
I have watched a couple of videos that cover the process of finding the optimal listening position in a room prior to implementing room treatment. Did you take this step? Did you pick your listening position based on conventional thought? Did you pick it in some other fashion?
I have yet to watch parts 3-5 of this series so you may answer the question in one of those videos.
I really appreciate your hard works, and yes it’s not easy for a simple data collection and comparison.
I’m not an audiophile, I’m still learning. This is my thought to share from the comparison (base to sound, not from graph/data).
I like the sound ambient from furnished room, rather than empty room. Furnished room creates much softer and smooth sound. Stereo effect is much clearer.
Very much opposite sound ambient from empty room, with little echo. Definitely this is due to full sound wave reflection. If you try cover (or just hang) a thick fabrics on all side of walls (and ceiling as well if possible), I think we will experience much better sound clarity. (note: I’ve use earphone connected to DAC adaptor USB type-C to listen your audio). Waiting to see more videos. Thanks again.
This is a fantastic series and in fact I would call it important. To systematically break down these steps with audio samples and measurements will provide a truly unique window for many people including myself.
Hey thanks!
Thank you!
Fantastic video Ron. As you say at the end in your final thoughts, the semi-furnished room is at a barely listenable level acoustically. That being said, the little furniture you put in there along with the carpets really made a staggering difference. Great to be able to compare it side-by-side like this. I can see myself pointing other people in the direction of this video series in the future when someone asks about room treatment. Keep up the great work!
Thank you!
I agree, but I hope most people are clever enough to notice that the room even after he put a few things in it is still a far cry from even the average living room, in terms of density/amount of furniture and objects, and has far more reverb than the average living room. The speakers being so far from the wall is also not typical, and while some disagree, to me it is not ideal. Most speakers are designed to be a certain distance from the wall, say 1-2 feet typically, maybe 3ft rarely - probably 18" on average - and when they're pulled out further, among other things (like a much more delayed front wall reflection adding to the sense of reverb and smearing) a drop in the bass below say 200hz or so depending on the speaker. Most speakers baffle step compensation is tuned to work with the assumed distance listed above, not 10 feet. Can you compensate for this or design/tune speakers to be used this way? Sure. Could it have other benefits that outweigh the cons subjectively, if the bass response is compensated for? Perhaps. But this is not typical nor is it in accordance with the intended design parameters, and I very much like having my speakers closer to the wall. Open baffle speakers will always benefit from some more space, but typical loudspeakers do not - essentially ALL recording studios, including the very best ones, do not do this, so your mixes are not even made like this but rather with very good monitor speakers close to a wall, sometimes even built into it. Subs aside, if we're talking 2 channel or even mains above 80hz, getting 3 or 6db of wall reinforcement for the bass below ~200hz will mean less cone travel for a given spl and that has benefits in terms of various kinds of distortion/linearity - and again, (relatively untreated) front wall reflection time is not going to blend well with the primary sound, whereas a baffle that's say 18" from the front wall is going to blend right in, and all the sound from the front is going to arrive at essentially the same time from a perception standpoint, and only the side walls/back wall are going to be delayed which is much more natural and psychoacoustically decipherable and "expected" by the ear - you'll get clearer dialogue for instance. Of course, after he treats the front wall, that probably won't be an issue (I'm sure), but for the average room it would be. My living room is 10x as dead as his "furnished" shed... partly because most people don't have like 15ft vaulted ceilings or whatever, nor that much square footage. That's a lot of space and drywall! And like any good living room (for listening), the whole thing is carpeted, it's not just rugs. I have carpet AND rugs, and way more density and variety of furniture and random stuff that acts like diffusion and absorption. It's certainly nowhere near a second of decay time, probably less than half a second. I do have REW and a UMIK-1 so I should measure it. But it's practically imperceptible.
I hope he plays around with how much absorption he uses, because subjectively (studies and anecdotes show) too dead of a room is not preferable either, and will certainly narrow your perceived soundstage, along with seeming less natural as it is not what the ear expects, psychoacoustically (with the visual stimuli or knowledge of the space you're in). If we wanted dead spaces, we'd listen to headphones.... but we're into speakers and spaces. And that very much includes a certain level of room interaction. Most speakers require it, which is why (as erin's audio corner shows) the dispersion characteristics of speakers is so important... it's not just about the on-axis response, but how the response changes (or ideally, doesn't change) off-axis, and thus how the timbre of the reflected sound compares to and blends with the on-axis sound. In a totally dead room, you're only going to hear the on-axis sound equivalent to looking at anechoic or klippel measurements, and speakers are not typically intended to be heard in an anechoic chamber. I'm sure Ron knows this, just pointing it out.
@@Artcore103 Many valid points.
I was mostly referring to the stark contrast between the unfurnished vs. somewhat furnished room. It is all too common to see listening rooms with barely anything in them, paired with sub-par placement of the speakers and people asking "Why does it sound so boomy / flat / dry / fatiguing?".
I'm sure most people dedicated enough to the hobby to spend 30 minutes watching an in-depth video like this already have more than a cursory understanding of how things "should be".
@@Patraquashe yeah, good point.
@@Artcore103 @Patraquashe You both made some solid points and observations. I was concerned that, with the lack of "stuff" in the room, this particular video might feel like a setup. This was certainly not my intention. Because this is a dedicated room and not a typical living room that's being used part-time for listening, I chose to use as much real estate as possible for acoustic treatment. In the event where this was a room occupied by others (family or spouse), I would have brought in more couches and "stuff" to help close the gap, as @Artcore has done. Appreciate the commentary and stay tuned. Oh, while you aren't wrong about your comments on speaker placement, it's purely subjective for what I'm listening for and what my goals are. There are indeed locations in the room that objectively look better on paper. I am always listening for as much depth and width as possible, so pulling the speakers deep into the room is typically my go-to.
Hi Ron, I wish you the best of luck with your acoustic room treatment. Although I now have my listening room extensively treated to provide tip top sound quality, it was a very long, difficult and expensive struggle. Just sticking a few panels on each wall won't cut the mustard.
I have just done my Masters and PHD on Audio Acoustics. Thanks mate
Exciting subjects, not going to lie you startled me when it transferred to "This is my voice from the left rear listening position" the drastic change was really noted
I cannot believe the effort that must have gone into this video much less the room itself. Well done!
Thank you very much!
love the video Ron! I spent a fair amount of time also treating my room and using REW to get the best placement for speakers and subs and the differences are significant. It amazes me how other audio review channels, especially the ones reviewing ultra high end gear, will not run something as simple as REW to determine how a specific speaker is behaving.
This is the first time someone making such a video! Thank you NRD! ❤
You are most welcome!
Thank you Ron for making this video! First one I have seen that explains how, what and why of using REW for beginners, like myself. Can’t wait for the next installment!
This makes me so happy!
Hi Ron, absolutey valuable guide, thanks for all of your hard work!
It would be great to have all these room acoustics videos and the LOTS video added to a playlist in your channel 🙏
Great idea
I really like your clear articulation and in depth knowledge. Excellent teacher.
Glad it was helpful!
brilliant--now I understand open baffle vs ported
That’s great!
I'm so jealous !
Your untreated room response is far better than my treated room with optimal speaker placement etc.
The decay time is crazy though and got better with just the furnishings.
Looking forward to the final results...
Don't know why, but your right channel is my left channel, using Schiit DAC & headphone Amp and Senhizer HD800s. The best way of showing a nontech guy like me how to do this, thank you for your insight to do this.
Thats odd. For all the demos or?
@@Newrecordday2013 Preceding demos with the binaural head seemed to be right and left, but were never designated as such. I had ordered a pair of Spatial Audio speakers before Clayton became ill and never got them.
There should be a video on how to MAKE a room (ie, new build houses that you want to design a listening room/theater for)
Hi Ron, what a wonderful job you're doin. You certainly help all those music lovers enjoy listening to beautiful sound. Great regard to you and your channel!
Thanks for listening
Watched this vid all the way through, and I suggest everyone does. Ron was just being polite….lol. Ron, this was such an absolutely fantastic video. Possibly one of the most helpful vids you’ve made, and you’ve made a lotta good ones, man. 100% top notch all the way through. I’ve no doubt you’ll have yourself one heck of a listening room there. I look forward to watching this journey. Thank you. 👍🔊😊🎶
I appreciate that
Great video as always Ron. Those first measurements where really throwing me off. I was confused as to why you had such a drop in highs starting at 4khz. Like -15db. But....i think its because im not used to seeing measurements in an incredibly reflective space.
Most untreated(but furnished) rooms have a ton more bass then anything else. That empty room has so much energy, that your frequency response looks fairly flat below the high frequencies....LOL. Goes to show you why FR(without decay) alone can be deceiving.
Looking forward to the rest of the videos.
Fantastic, thanks Ron for the time and effort you are putting into this. Will, or should be THE reference video for setting up a listening or movie room.
Superb video, Ron. And so timely as I will completely remodel my room including moving a certain wall if needed. Measuring and treatments will follow. Am going to tell my audio friends to watch this video series.
I use db apps on my phone but wonder about their accuracy as they differ from each other. Have you checked your TOPTES device against any spl apps?
I haven’t but that’s a great idea! I’ll keep you posted and thanks for watching!
Super! So much work, Ron. This is wonderful! Looking forward to the next episode.
More to come!
Well done! I'm glad someone is taking the time to do this properly
Really nice show.
- you have to share playlist too 🙂
Your channel played a big part in adding treatments to my small room.
Great!
Great video and can't wait for more. Your sponsors are about to show what their stuff can do!
Can't wait!
I really appreciate you for going through this pain for us!
My pleasure and I felt it needed to be done.
Thanks for this! I share this with all my new clients.
What a great video experience. Feels like we’re there. Instant Subscribe.
Welcome to the party
Ron excellent work on the listening room. Your passion for detail along with your quest for the best I believe exceeds anyone’s expectations. I am glad you are continuing on for further improvements which is great. Of the three factors you are dealing with, the construction of the listening area is great already. The second factor contains too many variables, which is each individuals own hearing which is probably why there are so many different types of equipment out there. The third and this is by no means a complaint is the medium sound traveling through (air). The temperature and humidity will have an impact on the sound being transmitted all be it small or not worth investigating. This is no disrespect to you but I do know it will possibly have an impact. Seeing as it is a listening room the variation in range of heat and humidity should be small. I believe that will be several videos down the road if you address it at all. Believe me I am not trying to be a wise (A) or nit-pick. for I love music also.
This is great. Would it be possible to do a quick recap on the next video, using chop cuts from empty to furnished, as you moved from the corners and to the sides of the mic? I was really hoping to hear a near side by side comparison of your voice before and after laying the rug down and adding the book shelves, without a 15 minute gap between tests. Does my request make sense... not sure if I am explaining it correctly. I think it would show a glaring difference. Maybe even continue that trend as you add treatments? I can't wait for part 2!!!
Great idea! I’ll come up with something.
Great Job and as @egis7908 said Outstanding! You didn't disappoint and as many others have said I can't wait for Parts 2, 3, and 4. Glad to see Randy back again as well. Thanks.
great video illustrating things what we had to understand with time and experience
Amazing!!! Can't wait to see the end result, Ron.
You and me both!
Thanks, Ron. I’m in the process of building my listening room and this is very helpful. I especially appreciate the REW intro. 👍🏻👍🏻
Excellent!
Awesome content, Ron. Thank you.
I'm really looking forward to the rest of this series! Just turned my photo studio into (also) a listening room but the reverb is possibly worse than where you started, so I'm about to learn something 🙂. Thanks man!
That's awesome!
Insightful, Educational. Really enjoyed seeing the results at each stage. I’m very much a novice with room acoustics. Thanks Ron😎👍
Glad you enjoyed it!
A couple of questions for ya.
What is the size of the room?
How far into the room are the speakers?
How far is the "listener" from the speakers?
Thanks in advance.
Thanks Ron, I enjoyed your first video and looking forward to the rest of the series.
Glad you enjoyed it
Very simple empty room occupied large amount of Air when any sound appears it mixed with large cavity causes Sound reverb or doubling always it requires some materials which it would help the air to be float in a proper manner we can called as acoustic treatment
Any how thanks for your knowledge
Good play leaving the volume alone so we hear the difference. I have unexpectedly leapt back into the room acoustics thing (in addition to and because of the speaker build evolution I'm in) and the changes in volume between versions/stages has been many dB, and dynamics have swung from wimpy burger to PA system... Acoustics is a crazy fun sport.
Appreciate that! Thank you!
You've earned yourself a new subscriber! Excellent video, and I'm looking forward to hearing the differences with the room treatment.
Excellent! Welcome aboard!
Great video i cant wait to see more.
Wow! Okay..subscribed. please go over future videos with the same step by step clarity.
Great! Bring it on!
Great work so far .....why didn't u measure the other speakers as well in order for us to see differences between ob speakers and box ones
Fantastic work! Can't wait to see the rest of the series.
Hey thanks!
Your attention to detail and production is top class man. Subbed ➕
Thanks for the sub!
Open baffle sounds just great.
This is by far your best idea/best work! Bravo
Wow, thank you!
THIS SERIES IS AWESOME. I had to subscribe. I like the really detailed and easy to follow demos, perfectly followable rew measurements and interpretation. I would wish that you at some point also would compare dsp vs room treatment and combination.
Thanks man! Welcome to the cool kids club!
You could have installed a ducted mini-split. The unit would sit above the ceiling and is ducted through registers. The air handlers are compact and I’ve seen where people seal the room with Sheet rock, install the units below the sheet rock and install another sheet rock ceiling below that which also has the supply and return registers in it. That way you still have a sealed room but a ducted unit above the ceiling is quite a bit quieter. Especially if the contractor does some tricks to limit the fan noise coming through the registers.
That’s true, I could have.
very happy from your work mate, y are help me a LOT, thank u muck. Plese keep going.
The Sapphires are MONSTERS! These open baffle beauties are something else. Soundstage for miles. WOW! Thanks Ron.
wow, it does almost make me want to get a set of open baffles! Very clean, natural sound. Now I assume these need to be far from walls and away from other gear, thats the only rub for me.
2.5 feet or more. Most speakers need at least that.
excellent video sir, good job!
10:12 You set my world on fire - Loving Calibre
I found out, during your walking with shaker, I have pretty good imaging, I could perfectly hear where you are.
This guy is a genius.
I dont know how I did I find this video, but I am so glad i did... Thanks man!
Welcome!
Great work Ron. We have been waiting for this for a Long time. Looking forward to how this unfolds. Greetings to you and yours
thank you and looking forward to next week!
You are most welcome!
Thank you for your hard work. Really amazing video thanks to your qualitative down to earth approach. Extremely valuable learnings and looking forward watching the next parts. Thanks again!
Ron this is awesome content. Can’t wait for more. Thank you for your efforts.
More to come!
Ron could you please let me know what brand and model the second set of speakers you ran were? They are beautiful!! In sound and appearance!!!
Very cool video and really liked how the first speaker sounds, but, may I enquire about the name of the songs used in this video :)
Great job Ron
Brilliantly done
Fantastic, exactly the tests / demos I searched. What a work you have produced here! thx! I subscribe :)
Hey thanks! Welcome aboard!
👏👏👏👏👏
- Greetings from Tarragona (Spain/EU -
6:33, that's insane, never experienced such a 3D sound experience, and I only have a pair of cheap headphones
Thank You for doing this!
My pleasure!
Ron
Thanks for the great effort. I’m looking forward to seeing the incremental improvements to the sound quality as treatments are added. I do have one question. Did you see any differences in the measured response between the two speakers? I am curious if the in room reverberations between the two speakers are different since they load the room differently.
Again
Thanks.
This is so informative, I love it and thank you!
You are so welcome!
Love it Ron! Great job!
Rock on!
Thanks!
Great series of videos =) Love watching the process.
Glad you like them!
Well done. Serious stuff ahead too
Heck yeah!
excellent content, congrats
Great work! Thank you!
Thank you too!
best room treatment explanation on youtube
Ah man! Thank you!
This is awesome!
So glad you liked it!
The furnishings did nothing for the bass "room boom" but did make speech easier to understand and the transients sharper. I found the differences between the Criton's and X4's more pronounced in the empty space.
That’s correct
loving these videos
I love making them!