I agree. The views will come, and this goes faster if people spread the word that this is a good channel. Then again, channels dedicated to good information are rarely going to blow up (in a good way), because most people seem to gravitate toward superficial stuff like oily muscles and watching how many dumbbell curls someone can do to failure in many various ways.
I put this method into practice this morning and put 10/15kg on my DL also increased my 1 RM by 3 reps..... this guy is a scholar! I will forever refer to this system as the Bromley deadlift (BDLs) many heart felt sincere thanks Mr Bromley sir.
@@mathias2868 My strength on the deadlift fluctuates somewhat, ill hold my hands up to exaggerating somewhat though the method definitely worked mind i used to DL every week but found i was slipping backwards so i thought id DL every fortnight instead having a rested CNS will have also helped no doubt.
You're the only person I've seen mention vertical shins It makes the movement so much easier, no 2-stages to confused thing. Just one single move,. For ages I wondered why nobody did this, and tried to see if anyone else had talked about it and didnt see any. Its much easier to think about and understand
What you said about knees forward and unnecessary torque on lower back - that is exactly how I used to strain my back while deadlifting! I would try to push my knees forward and felt a lot of stress on my lower back for some reason. After a while I watched some tips from Andy Bolton, where he advised to actually stand closer to the bar ant get shins more vertical and after I tried that - it was a life changer!
Great video Bromley. I was struggling with the starting strength setup and this just made so much more sense and didn’t tax my lower back as much. 💪🏾💪🏾💪🏾
This is fantastic. You've explained all of the things that I naturally want to do in my deadlift with actual mechanics. I knew that having a short torso and long legs gave me nice deadlift mechanics, but I didn't know that it had anything to do with never experiencing back pain. I'll definitely be bookmarking this for future reference.
I know this video is old, but it helped me so much this week! I've got the long torso, T-Rex arms build and I've been struggling with my DL setup for years. I realize now I was way too far forward and could never get the bar to stay close on my initial pull. Wednesday I deadlifted using this straight shin method and everything magically felt right. I decided to go for another max lift and added 50 lbs from my previous attempt just a week prior. Thanks!!
Very underrated channel. Would love to see a video on your volumization for size in the off season training and how you would structure a week around it.
The Nr. 1. thing on my youtube lifting video bucket list: watching a loooong ass conversation between you and Matt Wenning. He basically says that the Rippetoe-esque form teachings are outlandish and linear periodization in general is not the way to go. You on the other hand are a big proponent of those. That would be a nice clash. Please make it happen. Please.
I have my points of contention with Rip. Vertical shins is about the only point we agree on with the deadlift. I wouldn't sign up for a debate with Wenning, but I would be very happy to have a conversation with him on camera!
@@AlexanderBromley Rip doesn't advocate pulling with verical shins in the deadlift, not sure where you getting this. The only time shins are to be verical is at setup to get bar over midfoot or 1 inch from the shins. Also, any sufficiently heavy deadlift will be pulled the same way, bar travels in a straight line over the midfoot with shoulders just forward of the bar until the top. Look at Beni, Hall, Gillingham, or any other world record deadlift. Warmup weights can be done incorrectly because by definition it's not heavy enough.
@@ck-rd2ce Rip specifically advocates against pushing the knees forward. His setup with the bar an inch in front and dropping the shins forward results in a really small shin angle at the start relative to other deadlift styles; it's more vertical than not. All heavy deadlifts go off the same . LOL ok, with the exception of all the ways that they go off differently. "The bar moves in a straight line". Neat. That still leaves a dozen different variables for a lifter to concern themselves with. People start with thier torsos more or less vertical, more round in their back or less, their hips higher or lower, a lot of leg drive or hardly any. Woolam has a steep shin angle until the bar is halfway to his knees and, like I said in my video, I pull with the bar well behind my midfoot with my shins starting vertical, so the 3 lifters you named doesn't make for an infallible rule. People are built differently and that has different implications for your ideal setup; one size does not fit all.
@@AlexanderBromley hey Alex, rips setup will place the shins at about a 7-8 degree shin angle, to effectively use the quads. The landmarks for all heavy/limit deadlifts (obviously anthropometry determines back angle, hip height, shin angle so their start position will look different - no one is arguing this) as they leave leave floor are all the same - shoulders just in front of the bar, bar over mid foot. You might setup behind midfoot, Lower hips but even your deadlift doesn't leave the floor till your hips rise, bar is over midfoot and shoulders just in front of the bar. This is a universal fact for all limit deadlifts.
Very well explained, ironically it's something that I have been working on and to tell you the truth I can't believe how explosive it feels, great video
This always improves my deadlift greatly. The "rocking" you describe at 4:40 is very visible in Mike Tuchscherer's deadlifts... that's where I "stole" it, at least!
This was tremendously helpful, thanks. I've been struggling with getting too far in front of the bar. My torso is long relative to my legs, so I squat with vertical shins. Makes sense that is the best way for my legs to exert force without me falling over. Thanks again.
Alex thank you so much sharing this. I actually made this exact shift in my deadlift about 2 months ago and it made all the change in the world and popped my numbers. It's nice to get some backing/confirmation on this technique.
Thanks for another great video. Hafthor bjornsson is trying to break the 500 kg barrier, i swear his deadlift looks like a leg press. He is a freakishly huge human being!
Hi Alex. This type of set up I think is going to be a game changer for me. For the first time my deadlift not only "felt right" but I didn't notice any torque in my low back. I've been using what I would call a "starting strength" set up for almost two years now (Rip isn't the only guy coaching this style from my hours on youtube, but probably the most well known) and while it was an improvement from what I was doing before that which wasn't anything other than a very new guy trying to deadlift without help, I was still feeling some torque in the low back with the "SS" method. Lots of people told me this was "normal" (feel it in my low. back) and while I didn't have any "injuries" it never felt great going too heavy so I haven't and didn't, but I'd always felt achy back there but not in that "boy my muscles are sore" way but in the "dang I think I kind of tweaked something" way. Anything this was great. I obviously didn't push the weight too much because I'm learning a new pattern, but it felt really good. Like as I'm taking the slack out of the bar and bracing my core and tightening my lats my back straightens nicely and my hips snug into the bar in a way where everything feels tight and the weight just moves in a straight line. Thanks. Love the content. Your bracing technique was huge for me as well.
I love the new way of thinking. Not 100% sure it will look for everyone. I can pull conventional this way with no issues. I'm coaching some taller lifters and now I can't wait to test this on them. Hahaha. Thanks for the great contact.
Alex’s vertical shin deadlift explanation was excellent. I would love for him to compare clean pull first pull to the deadlift. Beginner Olympic weightlifters would benefit.
Great video as usual! I've always found deadlifting with the bar as close to the shins as possible so much easier. I listened to the advice about over mid foot and my deadlift fell to pieces. I was too far over the bar, too horizontal and found it too easy to push with the ball of the foot.
Great video. I just started watching your channel and it’s great. I typically deadlift using the Starting Strength method, and I feel as though I reached my limit with it. I agree that it puts a lot of stress on hips and lower back. Can’t wait for my local gym to open and I also ordered a bunch of equipment for my home gym. I will definitely try this technique out! Keep up the good work!!
@@jakepollard8355 funny thing is that any sufficiently heavy deadlift will leave the floor according to the SS model - bar over mid foot, shoulders in front of the bar, regardless of how you set up for the pull
Im going to try this on my next deadlift workout. My current pr is 260x6 (in lbs). I set that September 30th. My program is having me do 275 for amrap on October 13th. Im going to see how vertical shins changes my strength.
I actually broke a DL plateau by switching from vertical to angled shins. I just found i was using more legs and less back. Not only did i lift more, but my back and hips also felt pretty good (previously with vertical shins they would always feel crap afterwards). I guess different techniques suit diff people, for example Andy Bolton is one of the best DLs ever and his shins were completely vertical with the bar being almost against his shins.
Yeah it all depends on our morphology, my deadlifts didn't feel right right when I did them with angled shins but when I switch to vertical shins it felt really good, I can actually get tighter and engage my posterior chain a lot more
There are a ton of variables and it's hard to pinpoint with out a video. I will say that, if you were feeling more 'back' with vertical shins, you likely had your hips high, like in a stiff leg deadlift.
Great video and topic Bromley! However, I believe I've found the opposite has worked for me. Like you I felt a vertical shin, barbell behind the midfoot, and more upright deadlift would work better meaning able to lift more. I deadlifted this way 600, 635, 675, then felt stagnant over a few years. I then transitioned to a knee forward, less upright deadlift, slightly kyphotic and progressed to 725 with feeling like I had more on the tank. I think the technique change was largely responsible, but theres always other factors that could of been st play. My torso is short, femurs long, arms average, and a hip dominant squatter(part why I started vertical shin deadlift) with shitty knees. Deadlift vertical shin or knee forward could be a big factor in the deadlift with adequate volume. I do think vertical shin is a better way for those who are not competitive as with the lats locked down will have less injury risk.
I feel the same way. I’m not very strong and I’m still trying to get my deadlift technique right but when I saw this video I thought it would help but it didn’t. I tried having vertical shins and I can’t get my hips low because I’m about to fall if I lean any of my weight backwards. I’m also more hunched over and horizontal because of this. All back. But when I allow my knees and shin to bend foward I get a similar position to the vertical shin he’s showing in the video. I also have long femur, short torso and long arms.
I have super short arms but a equally proportional torso and legs. I use to get pain on my ride side of my hip when my shins were angled. The pain stopped, and I feel more stable deadlifting with vertical shins
Alex, your points definitely make sense. But I’m curious about this because Eddie Hall is a big proponent of keeping the bar directly over the center of the foot, and bringing the shin forward just enough to touch it, then pull...Thats how he teaches the DL. After changing my form to mimic his, I went from 525 to 635 in less than 6 months. I know this is anecdotal, but there has to be some merit to it if Eddie of all people push for it, no?
I suppose it all has to do with your levarages (length of your upper and lower legs, length of your arms etc). At the end, people should try to mix around with it, but Eddie Halls version is the "classic" one that will probably work for "most" people.
I disagreed with you about this in the forum and I still do. Strength Central has a video of every word record deadlift and most all conventional guys (especially the 220#) have a positive shin angle. Eddie Hall in 2016, slightly positive. When I went back and looked at your Arnold competition I also see a positive shin angle. Now I’m not saying it’s as drastic as your drawing, only 5-10 degrees but still positive. Maybe I need glasses but it’s what I see. That being said I’m not beating you up on this one. You’re videos have helped my deadlift more than anything. I’m also curious about your thoughts on my forum article on how to create the perfect training program
I'm holding off on longer responses until I'm back at my laptop. My argument is going to boil down to this; if we are comparing two broadly different approaches, then a few degrees positive is still pretty dang vertical and achieves most of what I talked about. I'll review some of my content to see if I oversold 'perfect verticality' (trademark) because I dont believe that's vital. I'm aware that's what the image portrays, but I was showing a spectrum.
Gotta give this a try. Its common sense to be able to get into that leg press position, vertical shins would be ideal. I was doing it the SS way and torso was almost completely horizontal with shins more forward and could not feel that leg press movement at the bottom.
When he says “the bar is well behind the center of my foot” and is referencing the right drawing, to me that looks like the middle of the foot. I wonder if there’s a miscommunication here where some people consider mid-foot to be the center of the actual foot, while others consider it to be the mid-point between the front of the shin and the toes
Can you do one on starting to deadlift after back injuries. I haven't deadlifted in years because of degenerative disks and fractures from the army. But lately I am seeing info if done correctly it can help the back.
yeah, this is it what I was looking for years. meet the bar with ur shins every1 says but than I am "falling" over the bar bc of my long femurs. I try to rotate my whole system back but it gets akward, more mobility is needed for that.. Probablyy that's y I love block pulls so much, because my system doesn't shift over the bar so much.
Middle of foot cue . Reason for this is When they bent over to pick up the bar. Their shins will move forward just a little bit and touch the Bar before Pulling.. Lining up the bar behind the middle of the foot; when these folks bent over to pick up the bar, their shins will Hit the bar causing the bar to roll forward
Generic question, you’ve spoken before on how for novice lifters “touches” (reps) are more important then reaching some sort of high weight each workout. You’ve also mentioned how the “newer” lifter doesn’t require a deload of some sort prior to meeting some goal. At what point in training does a deload before a PR, meet, or comp become beneficial to reaching a goal as opposed to detrimental?
That's a really good question and I'm not yet aware of a consistent method of determining that. Because I like to teach good habits early, I will still deload newer lifters at the pace of some of the more advanced lifters before a meet (usually heaviest work 10-12 days out, a week of reduced percentages, then 5 or 6 days of absolutely nothing). This doesn't seem to be detrimental to less developed lifters but will avoid the anxiety that comes with switching your peaking protocol when you 'think' it's necessary. For training, it's entirely autoregulated and dependant on whatever style of training you are using. You should have some idea of how you feel 7 days after a big attempt or really hard working set. If you consistently feel the same or stronger, carry on. But if you notice a trend of rough weeks coming after hard efforts, a deload is necessary.
I think it depends, I deadlift more and more upright with shins forward. I have a weird build though, 6 ft and 30 inch inseam, so pretty long torso haha
Really really good points here. I can definitely see how vertical shins make a big difference in leverage advantages. I usually deadlift with the bar over my mid-foot and I have a Max of 535. Am I knees track forward as well and I'm in the first position that you talked about. I'm going to work on keeping vertical shins and see how that improves my deadlift as I have struggled to get it to come up. How much poundage differenceas far as what I can gain do you think the difference will be between the first one and the second one?
Very informative video. I have tested vertical shins and I find it difficult to find my balance when the weight is not heavy enough. How to fix that? When weight gets heavy enough your own weight can help in counter balancing the weight.
Possibly stupid question. The awkward squat position you described is pretty much a clean-style deadlift. Would you say that there is any benefit to training this disadvantaged position on occasion, kind of like how there's benefit to training stiff leg deadlifts and rdls?
Samuel Brown if you’re trying to do that I think deficit deadlifts would be a better idea since they would force you into more of a “squat” position or even snatch grip deadlifts which will work your back even more than usual
People who try to get more quads usually end up with hips shoot up, never ever pull any slack and get everything in their back and after that they think "That was shitty lift man I should try to use even more quad".
Hey Alex ~ great vids 👍 I'm unsure.. what's the (standard) distance between floor & bar? I think/heard it's 9" but I'm unsure as to weather it is exactly 9" or just shy of that. Also, where's the measurement actually taken from ~ the lowest point (bottom) of the bar, or from the very center of the bar (to allow for different bar diameters 🤔)?
Think my deadlift starts off as the picture on the left and transitions to the picture on the right when my upper body is fully tight and the slack removed from the bar.
I'm kind of an in-betweener. My shins aren't completely vertical, but not that far forward. Closer to vertical though. My knees hover just behind my metatarsophalangeal joint: th-cam.com/video/rtb0j55g9WA/w-d-xo.html
Hello sir Bromley. Will there be a significant quad activation in doing the vertical shin position? Because we know that quads are used for leg drive as the initial phase of the deadlift. If there is no quad activation here, will the "push off the floor" part be removed and the deadlift simply becomes a pure pulling movement?
I tried to get vertical shins today after watching ur other videos but before seeing this one and ended up like u said doing more of a stiff legged deadlift but it actually felt ok! I have long legs and long body! I'm a very visual learner. Do u have any links to show people doing it how u say? Impossible to find an example myself as I wont know if it's a right example or wrong! Cheers.
@@vikingstrongman5903 Excellent thank you. Just watched two vids and it was very like what I did this last time. He's the guy I'll try to mimic. Thanks again.
How is that “middle of the foot” drawing even the middle of the foot? It’s in the middle of where shoe laces would be. The drawing on the right is actually where the middle of the entire foot is from toes to heel
feel like I get absolutely zero leg drive from a vertical shin, like I feel like I can’t even engage my quads when setting up with a vertical shin, is this normal or is it a form issue alex ? I’m only 6.0” and I feel like I have fairly normal proportions ?
Seriously recommend NOT doing vertical shins if youre a taller lifter with long femurs, i tried it and it felt like using all back (almost got snapped up) as our hips are so far from the bar and get terrible leg drive. Forward shins is the way to go for taller lifters, pete rubish and cailer woolam are some examples. Verticle shins are good if youre a manlet, for the most part
I agree but I’d just like to add this can be the case for short ppl aswell. I’m 5’7 but I very long femur in comparison to my torso and arms are 5 inches longer than my height so I def deal with similar problems to taller folk. I find that if I try to deadlift with vertical shins I feel as if I’m bout to fall over if I try to lower my hips. When I have vertical shins my back is literally at a slight downward angle(not even horizontal) my head is closer to the ground than my butt. Def an easy way to snap your shit up if pulling from that position.
I'm going to have to try this because my lower back is always unhappy from DL's. I've hired so many overpriced trainers who keep pushing the typical "proper" form even though I tell them I have short arms.
So , Bromley ..are you saying in your set up for the deadlift the bar is up against the shins and not an inch or two away , where the bar is over mid foot ? I’m a shins forward dead lifter .. want to try this and compare 👍🏻
Play around with it! It's a point of contention, many think the mid-foot is the sacred starting point for the deadlift, but I don't agree. I have my knees back and the bar right up against my shin.
@@johnarbuckle7648 i got meniscus surgery in July, came back to squatting and I have shin splints. I went to the doctor and he said to me i need plantar support, but I was wondering if I could do without it
@@disacane8459 From a runners stand point... You could strengthen your calves and your ankle but also improve your ankle mobility. You could try squatting barefoot or just with socks on.
Hey, Alex would you be able to make a video of Recovery work? Or best recovery techniques? I’ve just started foam rolling, and whenever I foam Roll my lats, the next day I always get a crippling back pain to the point to where I can barely deadlift 135. Just for Reference my max deadlift is 565
The best recovery technique is to eat sleep and rest better. Make sure your food agrees with you and digests well. Make sure all electronics are off when you sleep, get blackout curtains, if you're bed is 6 years old get a new one. Get new pillows. Make sure the room is either silent or filled with white noise like a fan. These things are going to be 80%+ of your recovery. Take more deloads. Autoregulate and drop some volume on the day when it feels right. Don't waste time on gimmicks. Foam rolling/tens unit machines, lacross ball rolling, all have a place as fixes for sort of immediate nagging pains when combined with additional rest, nutrition and sleep. But they are never a priority. Just additions that at most speed things up by 5-10%
frodo the hobo I agree, and so the important role that movement plays in daily life. Movement will get the blood circulating and get nutrients into those rebuilding muscles. Avoid a sedentary lifestyle as much as possible. Walk for 60-90 minutes 4-7 days a week. Do some mobility work on off days and train your core with the McGill Big 3. Also, always practice good spinal posture.
@@HolidayFortnight i'm really not a fan of stuart mcgille. And i know i'm going to be crucified for this. I don't think his big 3 are particularly helpful for strong people. If you're already good at bracing you're not going to be challenged by them. You need weighted ab work like farmer carries.
@@frodothehobo9938 I can tell you most strong people are HORRENDOUS at actual bracing. I was a 700lb deadlifter and couldn't last through 3 breaths of 90 90 breathing. Spinal health isnt just about strength, you have to know how to coordinate.
@@AlexanderBromley we've had different experiences with bracing then, which is fine. when i first stumbled into the lifting world the people i stumbled across preached bracing non stop. i can sort of just hang out and relax doing 90 90 breathing it doesn't do anything for me. having said that i would probably use it as a tool to teach someone how to brace, rather than something to reinforce.
I can’t get in that position because my femurs are too long in comparison to the rest of my body so if I get vertical shins my arms don’t reach the bar unless I’m all the way bent over and my lower back bends what do you recommend? The only way I can deadlift with a straight lower back Is with my back almost parallel to the floor :(
I dont know, I've tried the form on the right, but while it wouldn't be a perfect SLDL, it works like that, the knee being extended most definitely contributes the push off the floor. My sticking point with the form on the right, is off the floor. The regular one is at lockout. And the first form isn't correct, person is pitched forward because the scapula isn't over midfoot, because his torso can go higher, which in fact is an advantage, as you say the uprightness is, and while many deadlifts can be sldling too, Eddie, Thor etc always doing like the natural way would allow them to do it, with the knees extended to break off the ground
Isn´t it possible that the heavier you get, the more it makes sense to distribute the bodyweight further back in relation to the weight on the bar ? Mostly i see Strongman pull that way but powerlifters would surely pull the same way if that gave them an advantage ?!
To start, what's 'best' depends on the balance of many, many different variables. I'm in no way saying that this is the fixed point around which all deadlifters should orbit. I think it's a good cue that applies to most and is a good starting point for new lifters, even if things get tweaked down the road. Powerlifting doesn't put the same premium on deadlift strength that strongman does. With Strongman, it's a must, while many PLers can succeed off of big squats and presses (Hoff beat his old total by 100lbs and pulled the same deadlift). This makes it trickier when evaluating best practices. The biggest deads from the top 10 totals come from the likes of Vlad, Bolton, Bell, Morris.... all of whom have very vertical shins. Lilliebridge has a forward slant, but his leverages put his hips back and keeps him very upright. How that changes in lighter weight classes and why?? I can only speculate. Joint leverages dont change unless you are physically obstructed. Balance might, but I have a hard time thinking 70lbs in body weight is much of a difference when you are balanced around an 800lb barbell.
if you deadlifting infront of your shins, you might actually fuck up your calves. strains muscles,tendons, nerves. over long term micro damage til failure.
I've carried on about this for a while and received alot of shit for having that as my opinion.. it is also a decision factor on choice of deadlift stance sumo/hybrid/conv. Hybrid stance for myself yields the best shin and torso angle.
Hi Alex, only recently found your channel and I'm a big fan of what you're doing here. Question: Any idea why I'm stronger and feel better when deadlifting on an axle bar rather than a normal barbell? (Also give me a follow on instagram at @bearstrengthfitness) Keep up the good work! Many thanks, Connor
looks like a bitch to achieve with a short torso/short arms bc knees need to flex to grab bar while keeping shoulders in a decent position. Nice breakdown and testimony, though. I was having the bar a bit behind mid foot and thought I was asking to fuk up my lumbar, but having it closer felt more recruitment off the floor with my hammies. Also, peeps with big ass feet don't pull midfoot even comparing short to tall guys and varying foot sizes. More of a n00b cue floating out there.
I disagree with these graphics. Vertical shin will lead to a more horizontal torso position. Weight in the heels will pull shoulder behind bar and lead to more rounding. A slight forward shin will take stress off the low back and a more on the knees by being the hips closer to the bar. More ability to press the weight off the floor, maintain a neutral spine and remain more upright. A very knee forward position is not good just as a very vertical shin is not good.
seriously underrated content here. You explain things clearly and intelligently and should have more views, in my opinion
I agree. The views will come, and this goes faster if people spread the word that this is a good channel. Then again, channels dedicated to good information are rarely going to blow up (in a good way), because most people seem to gravitate toward superficial stuff like oily muscles and watching how many dumbbell curls someone can do to failure in many various ways.
White Wolf or alternatively, gimmicky people like athlean x
not underrated , more like undiscovered
I put this method into practice this morning and put 10/15kg on my DL also increased my 1 RM by 3 reps..... this guy is a scholar! I will forever refer to this system as the Bromley deadlift (BDLs) many heart felt sincere thanks Mr Bromley sir.
You must have been a novice lifter. No advanced lifter will get 10-15kg with a small adjustment. Own experience 27 years.
@@mathias2868 My strength on the deadlift fluctuates somewhat, ill hold my hands up to exaggerating somewhat though the method definitely worked mind i used to DL every week but found i was slipping backwards so i thought id DL every fortnight instead having a rested CNS will have also helped no doubt.
@@mathias2868 no shit
Can we get a series on “The Joy of Sharpies” with Alex Bromley? I need to draw some happy little barbells.
You're the only person I've seen mention vertical shins
It makes the movement so much easier, no 2-stages to confused thing. Just one single move,. For ages I wondered why nobody did this, and tried to see if anyone else had talked about it and didnt see any. Its much easier to think about and understand
What you said about knees forward and unnecessary torque on lower back - that is exactly how I used to strain my back while deadlifting! I would try to push my knees forward and felt a lot of stress on my lower back for some reason. After a while I watched some tips from Andy Bolton, where he advised to actually stand closer to the bar ant get shins more vertical and after I tried that - it was a life changer!
Great video Bromley. I was struggling with the starting strength setup and this just made so much more sense and didn’t tax my lower back as much. 💪🏾💪🏾💪🏾
Haven't deadlifted in almost a month because of CV19 and these videos you've been releasing have got me CRAVING to pick up heavy shit.
Where I live, my gym is still open and I’m gonna deadlift today 😎 I’ll Bang out a few reps for ya.
This is fantastic. You've explained all of the things that I naturally want to do in my deadlift with actual mechanics. I knew that having a short torso and long legs gave me nice deadlift mechanics, but I didn't know that it had anything to do with never experiencing back pain. I'll definitely be bookmarking this for future reference.
I know this video is old, but it helped me so much this week! I've got the long torso, T-Rex arms build and I've been struggling with my DL setup for years. I realize now I was way too far forward and could never get the bar to stay close on my initial pull. Wednesday I deadlifted using this straight shin method and everything magically felt right. I decided to go for another max lift and added 50 lbs from my previous attempt just a week prior. Thanks!!
This is probably one of the best explanations of how to get your shins vertical in the DL. This felt awesome! Thanks man!
your videos are definitely the best, by far, when it comes to breaking down technique
Very underrated channel. Would love to see a video on your volumization for size in the off season training and how you would structure a week around it.
The Nr. 1. thing on my youtube lifting video bucket list: watching a loooong ass conversation between you and Matt Wenning.
He basically says that the Rippetoe-esque form teachings are outlandish and linear periodization in general is not the way to go. You on the other hand are a big proponent of those.
That would be a nice clash.
Please make it happen.
Please.
I have my points of contention with Rip. Vertical shins is about the only point we agree on with the deadlift.
I wouldn't sign up for a debate with Wenning, but I would be very happy to have a conversation with him on camera!
@@AlexanderBromley I’d love see that. I despise wennings teaching and really like yours, so it’d be real interesting to see that conversation.
@@AlexanderBromley Rip doesn't advocate pulling with verical shins in the deadlift, not sure where you getting this. The only time shins are to be verical is at setup to get bar over midfoot or 1 inch from the shins. Also, any sufficiently heavy deadlift will be pulled the same way, bar travels in a straight line over the midfoot with shoulders just forward of the bar until the top. Look at Beni, Hall, Gillingham, or any other world record deadlift. Warmup weights can be done incorrectly because by definition it's not heavy enough.
@@ck-rd2ce Rip specifically advocates against pushing the knees forward. His setup with the bar an inch in front and dropping the shins forward results in a really small shin angle at the start relative to other deadlift styles; it's more vertical than not.
All heavy deadlifts go off the same . LOL ok, with the exception of all the ways that they go off differently. "The bar moves in a straight line". Neat. That still leaves a dozen different variables for a lifter to concern themselves with. People start with thier torsos more or less vertical, more round in their back or less, their hips higher or lower, a lot of leg drive or hardly any.
Woolam has a steep shin angle until the bar is halfway to his knees and, like I said in my video, I pull with the bar well behind my midfoot with my shins starting vertical, so the 3 lifters you named doesn't make for an infallible rule. People are built differently and that has different implications for your ideal setup; one size does not fit all.
@@AlexanderBromley hey Alex, rips setup will place the shins at about a 7-8 degree shin angle, to effectively use the quads. The landmarks for all heavy/limit deadlifts (obviously anthropometry determines back angle, hip height, shin angle so their start position will look different - no one is arguing this) as they leave leave floor are all the same - shoulders just in front of the bar, bar over mid foot. You might setup behind midfoot, Lower hips but even your deadlift doesn't leave the floor till your hips rise, bar is over midfoot and shoulders just in front of the bar. This is a universal fact for all limit deadlifts.
Man, this is extremely helpful. My deadlift weight is starting to go up and my technical flaws/weaknesses are showing. Right on time. Thanks brother.
Very well explained, ironically it's something that I have been working on and to tell you the truth I can't believe how explosive it feels, great video
No one articulates this stuff better than you. Great video!
This always improves my deadlift greatly. The "rocking" you describe at 4:40 is very visible in Mike Tuchscherer's deadlifts... that's where I "stole" it, at least!
he also transforms into a choo choo train when he deadlifts which is pretty cool
Filippo Maurri , thats wild. The first time i saw a mike t deadlift video I thought he was demons possessed.
This was tremendously helpful, thanks. I've been struggling with getting too far in front of the bar.
My torso is long relative to my legs, so I squat with vertical shins. Makes sense that is the best way for my legs to exert force without me falling over. Thanks again.
Bro this is a valuable, useful and rare staff. Can't believe people actually prefer watchin vlogs regarding some bullshit fitness gossip - drama
Your content is gold, really. You deserve way more subs, and views
Thank you for explaining these things in depth. So many useless over simplistic deadlift tutorials out there
Alex thank you so much sharing this. I actually made this exact shift in my deadlift about 2 months ago and it made all the change in the world and popped my numbers. It's nice to get some backing/confirmation on this technique.
Thanks for another great video. Hafthor bjornsson is trying to break the 500 kg barrier, i swear his deadlift looks like a leg press. He is a freakishly huge human being!
Hi Alex. This type of set up I think is going to be a game changer for me. For the first time my deadlift not only "felt right" but I didn't notice any torque in my low back. I've been using what I would call a "starting strength" set up for almost two years now (Rip isn't the only guy coaching this style from my hours on youtube, but probably the most well known) and while it was an improvement from what I was doing before that which wasn't anything other than a very new guy trying to deadlift without help, I was still feeling some torque in the low back with the "SS" method. Lots of people told me this was "normal" (feel it in my low. back) and while I didn't have any "injuries" it never felt great going too heavy so I haven't and didn't, but I'd always felt achy back there but not in that "boy my muscles are sore" way but in the "dang I think I kind of tweaked something" way. Anything this was great. I obviously didn't push the weight too much because I'm learning a new pattern, but it felt really good. Like as I'm taking the slack out of the bar and bracing my core and tightening my lats my back straightens nicely and my hips snug into the bar in a way where everything feels tight and the weight just moves in a straight line. Thanks. Love the content. Your bracing technique was huge for me as well.
Yes you explained this perfectly! I agree 100%.
I love the new way of thinking. Not 100% sure it will look for everyone. I can pull conventional this way with no issues. I'm coaching some taller lifters and now I can't wait to test this on them. Hahaha. Thanks for the great contact.
Alex’s vertical shin deadlift explanation was excellent. I would love for him to compare clean pull first pull to the deadlift. Beginner Olympic weightlifters would benefit.
Great video as usual! I've always found deadlifting with the bar as close to the shins as possible so much easier. I listened to the advice about over mid foot and my deadlift fell to pieces. I was too far over the bar, too horizontal and found it too easy to push with the ball of the foot.
I have been deadliftin wrong for 10 years. This makes sense 100%
Great video. I just started watching your channel and it’s great. I typically deadlift using the Starting Strength method, and I feel as though I reached my limit with it. I agree that it puts a lot of stress on hips and lower back. Can’t wait for my local gym to open and I also ordered a bunch of equipment for my home gym. I will definitely try this technique out! Keep up the good work!!
1 year later. How did this go? Did you prefer this style or the starting strength style
@@jakepollard8355 funny thing is that any sufficiently heavy deadlift will leave the floor according to the SS model - bar over mid foot, shoulders in front of the bar, regardless of how you set up for the pull
Im going to try this on my next deadlift workout. My current pr is 260x6 (in lbs). I set that September 30th. My program is having me do 275 for amrap on October 13th. Im going to see how vertical shins changes my strength.
I've found my best form to the bar almost against my shins. Shins straight vertical like shown but I get my hips much lower.
I actually broke a DL plateau by switching from vertical to angled shins. I just found i was using more legs and less back. Not only did i lift more, but my back and hips also felt pretty good (previously with vertical shins they would always feel crap afterwards). I guess different techniques suit diff people, for example Andy Bolton is one of the best DLs ever and his shins were completely vertical with the bar being almost against his shins.
Yeah it all depends on our morphology, my deadlifts didn't feel right right when I did them with angled shins but when I switch to vertical shins it felt really good, I can actually get tighter and engage my posterior chain a lot more
There are a ton of variables and it's hard to pinpoint with out a video. I will say that, if you were feeling more 'back' with vertical shins, you likely had your hips high, like in a stiff leg deadlift.
Phenominal, so helpful
Great video and topic Bromley! However, I believe I've found the opposite has worked for me. Like you I felt a vertical shin, barbell behind the midfoot, and more upright deadlift would work better meaning able to lift more. I deadlifted this way 600, 635, 675, then felt stagnant over a few years. I then transitioned to a knee forward, less upright deadlift, slightly kyphotic and progressed to 725 with feeling like I had more on the tank. I think the technique change was largely responsible, but theres always other factors that could of been st play. My torso is short, femurs long, arms average, and a hip dominant squatter(part why I started vertical shin deadlift) with shitty knees. Deadlift vertical shin or knee forward could be a big factor in the deadlift with adequate volume. I do think vertical shin is a better way for those who are not competitive as with the lats locked down will have less injury risk.
I feel the same way. I’m not very strong and I’m still trying to get my deadlift technique right but when I saw this video I thought it would help but it didn’t. I tried having vertical shins and I can’t get my hips low because I’m about to fall if I lean any of my weight backwards. I’m also more hunched over and horizontal because of this. All back. But when I allow my knees and shin to bend foward I get a similar position to the vertical shin he’s showing in the video. I also have long femur, short torso and long arms.
I have super short arms but a equally proportional torso and legs. I use to get pain on my ride side of my hip when my shins were angled. The pain stopped, and I feel more stable deadlifting with vertical shins
Alex, your points definitely make sense. But I’m curious about this because Eddie Hall is a big proponent of keeping the bar directly over the center of the foot, and bringing the shin forward just enough to touch it, then pull...Thats how he teaches the DL. After changing my form to mimic his, I went from 525 to 635 in less than 6 months.
I know this is anecdotal, but there has to be some merit to it if Eddie of all people push for it, no?
I suppose it all has to do with your levarages (length of your upper and lower legs, length of your arms etc).
At the end, people should try to mix around with it, but Eddie Halls version is the "classic" one that will probably work for "most" people.
I disagreed with you about this in the forum and I still do. Strength Central has a video of every word record deadlift and most all conventional guys (especially the 220#) have a positive shin angle. Eddie Hall in 2016, slightly positive. When I went back and looked at your Arnold competition I also see a positive shin angle. Now I’m not saying it’s as drastic as your drawing, only 5-10 degrees but still positive. Maybe I need glasses but it’s what I see. That being said I’m not beating you up on this one. You’re videos have helped my deadlift more than anything. I’m also curious about your thoughts on my forum article on how to create the perfect training program
I'm holding off on longer responses until I'm back at my laptop. My argument is going to boil down to this; if we are comparing two broadly different approaches, then a few degrees positive is still pretty dang vertical and achieves most of what I talked about. I'll review some of my content to see if I oversold 'perfect verticality' (trademark) because I dont believe that's vital. I'm aware that's what the image portrays, but I was showing a spectrum.
Alexander Bromley I agree. Relatively vertical in most instances
Checkout tom stoltman deadlifting
Gotta give this a try. Its common sense to be able to get into that leg press position, vertical shins would be ideal. I was doing it the SS way and torso was almost completely horizontal with shins more forward and could not feel that leg press movement at the bottom.
I tried, but it felt way better. Thanks
When he says “the bar is well behind the center of my foot” and is referencing the right drawing, to me that looks like the middle of the foot. I wonder if there’s a miscommunication here where some people consider mid-foot to be the center of the actual foot, while others consider it to be the mid-point between the front of the shin and the toes
Can you do one on starting to deadlift after back injuries. I haven't deadlifted in years because of degenerative disks and fractures from the army. But lately I am seeing info if done correctly it can help the back.
yeah, this is it what I was looking for years. meet the bar with ur shins every1 says but than I am "falling" over the bar bc of my long femurs. I try to rotate my whole system back but it gets akward, more mobility is needed for that.. Probablyy that's y I love block pulls so much, because my system doesn't shift over the bar so much.
Im going to try this i think it may work better for me.
I'll test this out on my de load week
Agree with your theory, it’s just trying to get into this position 😀
Currently trying to train a friend but he has much different proportions to me so I’ll try teaching him vertical shins and see how it goes
I agree but I like to start forward and wedge back pull the slack out the bar. By the time the bar leaves the floor my shins are vertical.
Middle of foot cue . Reason for this is When they bent over to pick up the bar. Their shins will move forward just a little bit and touch the Bar before Pulling.. Lining up the bar behind the middle of the foot; when these folks bent over to pick up the bar, their shins will Hit the bar causing the bar to roll forward
unless you keep your shins vertical
Generic question, you’ve spoken before on how for novice lifters “touches” (reps) are more important then reaching some sort of high weight each workout. You’ve also mentioned how the “newer” lifter doesn’t require a deload of some sort prior to meeting some goal. At what point in training does a deload before a PR, meet, or comp become beneficial to reaching a goal as opposed to detrimental?
That's a really good question and I'm not yet aware of a consistent method of determining that. Because I like to teach good habits early, I will still deload newer lifters at the pace of some of the more advanced lifters before a meet (usually heaviest work 10-12 days out, a week of reduced percentages, then 5 or 6 days of absolutely nothing). This doesn't seem to be detrimental to less developed lifters but will avoid the anxiety that comes with switching your peaking protocol when you 'think' it's necessary.
For training, it's entirely autoregulated and dependant on whatever style of training you are using. You should have some idea of how you feel 7 days after a big attempt or really hard working set. If you consistently feel the same or stronger, carry on. But if you notice a trend of rough weeks coming after hard efforts, a deload is necessary.
I think it depends, I deadlift more and more upright with shins forward. I have a weird build though, 6 ft and 30 inch inseam, so pretty long torso haha
Do you have an video of you demonstrating this with the bar?
Really really good points here. I can definitely see how vertical shins make a big difference in leverage advantages. I usually deadlift with the bar over my mid-foot and I have a Max of 535. Am I knees track forward as well and I'm in the first position that you talked about. I'm going to work on keeping vertical shins and see how that improves my deadlift as I have struggled to get it to come up. How much poundage differenceas far as what I can gain do you think the difference will be between the first one and the second one?
Very informative video.
I have tested vertical shins and I find it difficult to find my balance when the weight is not heavy enough.
How to fix that?
When weight gets heavy enough your own weight can help in counter balancing the weight.
Possibly stupid question. The awkward squat position you described is pretty much a clean-style deadlift. Would you say that there is any benefit to training this disadvantaged position on occasion, kind of like how there's benefit to training stiff leg deadlifts and rdls?
Samuel Brown if you’re trying to do that I think deficit deadlifts would be a better idea since they would force you into more of a “squat” position or even snatch grip deadlifts which will work your back even more than usual
People who try to get more quads usually end up with hips shoot up, never ever pull any slack and get everything in their back and after that they think "That was shitty lift man I should try to use even more quad".
u are an articulate man
Hey Alex ~ great vids 👍 I'm unsure.. what's the (standard) distance between floor & bar? I think/heard it's 9" but I'm unsure as to weather it is exactly 9" or just shy of that. Also, where's the measurement actually taken from ~ the lowest point (bottom) of the bar, or from the very center of the bar (to allow for different bar diameters 🤔)?
But what if the lifters arms aren’t long enough to reach the bar in that upright of a starting position?
Then at least your bench press is strong.
Think my deadlift starts off as the picture on the left and transitions to the picture on the right when my upper body is fully tight and the slack removed from the bar.
I'm kind of an in-betweener. My shins aren't completely vertical, but not that far forward. Closer to vertical though. My knees hover just behind my metatarsophalangeal joint: th-cam.com/video/rtb0j55g9WA/w-d-xo.html
Hello sir Bromley. Will there be a significant quad activation in doing the vertical shin position? Because we know that quads are used for leg drive as the initial phase of the deadlift. If there is no quad activation here, will the "push off the floor" part be removed and the deadlift simply becomes a pure pulling movement?
I tried to get vertical shins today after watching ur other videos but before seeing this one and ended up like u said doing more of a stiff legged deadlift but it actually felt ok! I have long legs and long body!
I'm a very visual learner. Do u have any links to show people doing it how u say?
Impossible to find an example myself as I wont know if it's a right example or wrong! Cheers.
Have you tried Andy Bolten's deadlift videos??? That is how I came to this style of deadlifting.
@@vikingstrongman5903 Excellent thank you. Just watched two vids and it was very like what I did this last time. He's the guy I'll try to mimic. Thanks again.
How is that “middle of the foot” drawing even the middle of the foot? It’s in the middle of where shoe laces would be. The drawing on the right is actually where the middle of the entire foot is from toes to heel
With working with the weight back on your heels like that. Has it reduced the low back strain all that much long term speaking now?
feel like I get absolutely zero leg drive from a vertical shin, like I feel like I can’t even engage my quads when setting up with a vertical shin, is this normal or is it a form issue alex ? I’m only 6.0” and I feel like I have fairly normal proportions ?
Yea. Same here. Vert shin does not work
Seriously recommend NOT doing vertical shins if youre a taller lifter with long femurs, i tried it and it felt like using all back (almost got snapped up) as our hips are so far from the bar and get terrible leg drive. Forward shins is the way to go for taller lifters, pete rubish and cailer woolam are some examples. Verticle shins are good if youre a manlet, for the most part
Exactly
I agree but I’d just like to add this can be the case for short ppl aswell. I’m 5’7 but I very long femur in comparison to my torso and arms are 5 inches longer than my height so I def deal with similar problems to taller folk. I find that if I try to deadlift with vertical shins I feel as if I’m bout to fall over if I try to lower my hips. When I have vertical shins my back is literally at a slight downward angle(not even horizontal) my head is closer to the ground than my butt. Def an easy way to snap your shit up if pulling from that position.
JP Cauchi preaches move around ankle joint to preserve the setup. Not so much weight in the heels.
I'm going to have to try this because my lower back is always unhappy from DL's. I've hired so many overpriced trainers who keep pushing the typical "proper" form even though I tell them I have short arms.
I stiff leg deadlift like the first figure no knee angle is that in Correct? Because I only can do 225 with that
So , Bromley ..are you saying in your set up for the deadlift the bar is up against the shins and not an inch or two away , where the bar is over mid foot ? I’m a
shins forward dead lifter .. want to try this and compare 👍🏻
Play around with it! It's a point of contention, many think the mid-foot is the sacred starting point for the deadlift, but I don't agree. I have my knees back and the bar right up against my shin.
i alex, i have a question. How can i work around shin splints? I get them every day after i do squat, it really holds me back, the pain is unbeareble
I've never heard of shin splints from squatting. Which squat and shoes(heels)?
Squatting is actually reccomended to help prevent shin splints... It might be something else or from something else
@@johnarbuckle7648 i got meniscus surgery in July, came back to squatting and I have shin splints. I went to the doctor and he said to me i need plantar support, but I was wondering if I could do without it
@@disacane8459 From a runners stand point... You could strengthen your calves and your ankle but also improve your ankle mobility. You could try squatting barefoot or just with socks on.
@@johnarbuckle7648 thanks for the advice, ill try! Could foam rolling and stretch help?
Is this tip good for long femur people?
Hey, Alex would you be able to make a video of Recovery work? Or best recovery techniques? I’ve just started foam rolling, and whenever I foam Roll my lats, the next day I always get a crippling back pain to the point to where I can barely deadlift 135. Just for Reference my max deadlift is 565
The best recovery technique is to eat sleep and rest better. Make sure your food agrees with you and digests well. Make sure all electronics are off when you sleep, get blackout curtains, if you're bed is 6 years old get a new one. Get new pillows. Make sure the room is either silent or filled with white noise like a fan. These things are going to be 80%+ of your recovery. Take more deloads. Autoregulate and drop some volume on the day when it feels right. Don't waste time on gimmicks. Foam rolling/tens unit machines, lacross ball rolling, all have a place as fixes for sort of immediate nagging pains when combined with additional rest, nutrition and sleep. But they are never a priority. Just additions that at most speed things up by 5-10%
frodo the hobo I agree, and so the important role that movement plays in daily life. Movement will get the blood circulating and get nutrients into those rebuilding muscles. Avoid a sedentary lifestyle as much as possible. Walk for 60-90 minutes 4-7 days a week. Do some mobility work on off days and train your core with the McGill Big 3. Also, always practice good spinal posture.
@@HolidayFortnight i'm really not a fan of stuart mcgille. And i know i'm going to be crucified for this. I don't think his big 3 are particularly helpful for strong people. If you're already good at bracing you're not going to be challenged by them. You need weighted ab work like farmer carries.
@@frodothehobo9938 I can tell you most strong people are HORRENDOUS at actual bracing. I was a 700lb deadlifter and couldn't last through 3 breaths of 90 90 breathing. Spinal health isnt just about strength, you have to know how to coordinate.
@@AlexanderBromley we've had different experiences with bracing then, which is fine. when i first stumbled into the lifting world the people i stumbled across preached bracing non stop. i can sort of just hang out and relax doing 90 90 breathing it doesn't do anything for me. having said that i would probably use it as a tool to teach someone how to brace, rather than something to reinforce.
I can’t get in that position because my femurs are too long in comparison to the rest of my body so if I get vertical shins my arms don’t reach the bar unless I’m all the way bent over and my lower back bends what do you recommend? The only way I can deadlift with a straight lower back Is with my back almost parallel to the floor :(
I dont know, I've tried the form on the right, but while it wouldn't be a perfect SLDL, it works like that, the knee being extended most definitely contributes the push off the floor. My sticking point with the form on the right, is off the floor. The regular one is at lockout. And the first form isn't correct, person is pitched forward because the scapula isn't over midfoot, because his torso can go higher, which in fact is an advantage, as you say the uprightness is, and while many deadlifts can be sldling too, Eddie, Thor etc always doing like the natural way would allow them to do it, with the knees extended to break off the ground
Correct me but the diagram on the left is the position you want to be in when you do a clean?
Julian Phillips in terms of the shins being forward yes but overall no since you want your torso to be significantly more upright for a clean
@@999awesomekid Thank you. Just adding a little more to the topic of deadlifting.
th-cam.com/video/cx1r8dgEnlk/w-d-xo.html
Isn´t it possible that the heavier you get, the more it makes sense to distribute the bodyweight further back in relation to the weight on the bar ?
Mostly i see Strongman pull that way but powerlifters would surely pull the same way if that gave them an advantage ?!
To start, what's 'best' depends on the balance of many, many different variables. I'm in no way saying that this is the fixed point around which all deadlifters should orbit. I think it's a good cue that applies to most and is a good starting point for new lifters, even if things get tweaked down the road.
Powerlifting doesn't put the same premium on deadlift strength that strongman does. With Strongman, it's a must, while many PLers can succeed off of big squats and presses (Hoff beat his old total by 100lbs and pulled the same deadlift). This makes it trickier when evaluating best practices.
The biggest deads from the top 10 totals come from the likes of Vlad, Bolton, Bell, Morris.... all of whom have very vertical shins. Lilliebridge has a forward slant, but his leverages put his hips back and keeps him very upright.
How that changes in lighter weight classes and why?? I can only speculate. Joint leverages dont change unless you are physically obstructed. Balance might, but I have a hard time thinking 70lbs in body weight is much of a difference when you are balanced around an 800lb barbell.
Angled shins with vertical torso for Olympic lifting gang
if you deadlifting infront of your shins, you might actually fuck up your calves. strains muscles,tendons, nerves. over long term micro damage til failure.
I've carried on about this for a while and received alot of shit for having that as my opinion.. it is also a decision factor on choice of deadlift stance sumo/hybrid/conv. Hybrid stance for myself yields the best shin and torso angle.
Hi Alex, only recently found your channel and I'm a big fan of what you're doing here.
Question: Any idea why I'm stronger and feel better when deadlifting on an axle bar rather than a normal barbell?
(Also give me a follow on instagram at @bearstrengthfitness)
Keep up the good work!
Many thanks,
Connor
I got long legs short torso and arms
looks like a bitch to achieve with a short torso/short arms bc knees need to flex to grab bar while keeping shoulders in a decent position. Nice breakdown and testimony, though. I was having the bar a bit behind mid foot and thought I was asking to fuk up my lumbar, but having it closer felt more recruitment off the floor with my hammies. Also, peeps with big ass feet don't pull midfoot even comparing short to tall guys and varying foot sizes. More of a n00b cue floating out there.
this is what i dislike about alan thralls 5 step set up which just about everyone throws at beginners, never worked for me
So that means we start with the bar closer to our feet instead of the midfoot?
Sorry my English are not perfect.
I disagree with these graphics. Vertical shin will lead to a more horizontal torso position. Weight in the heels will pull shoulder behind bar and lead to more rounding. A slight forward shin will take stress off the low back and a more on the knees by being the hips closer to the bar. More ability to press the weight off the floor, maintain a neutral spine and remain more upright. A very knee forward position is not good just as a very vertical shin is not good.