I spent two years waiting to see how Villeneuve would be able to deal with Alia on screen. I understand that it is a challenge and a big risk to cast a 4-5 years old child with such a unique role, but this is also a huge part of what makes the Dune book so unique. I was not ready for that big of a change in the story ...
I'm right there with you. I literally kept waiting to see her in a trailer. The only saving grace for me is that I really like Anya Taylor-Joy. So, hopefully the next movie is solid.
I really wanted to see if they would actually have a child actor like in dune(1984) but I honestly felt it would've been a little goofy looking if they did include that (not that jessica speaking to her unborn child wasn't) I've only read the first book so I really don't know how much things could change in future films from denis not including alia being born, but I still feel that denis did a really great job with this and all the things he did not include or added even were necessary and it was a great movie either way.
In response to reactions of my unpopular opinion of this new adaptation, I am going to upload the entire SciFi Channel miniseries, Dune, and Children of Dune to my TH-cam Channel. It will take me about a week, due to restricted data upload. I hope this provides entertainment to people who cannot find these miniseries anywhere else available.
Bothered me a lot actually. It's a Guild navigator that tips off the Emperor early on of the threat to the known universe that's embodied in Paul Atreides. The Guild demands he exterminate Paul as soon as possible so that the spice may continue to flow and not cause a disruption. The Guild controls all transportation across the known universe, so leaving the Guild out in my opinion is a grave omission. Also, there was no mention of CHOAM, or the Mentats for that matter, (especially the fate of Thufir Hawat) which really bothered me as well
They're such a huge part of Dune it is actually wild they are barely even mentioned in the films so far. I wonder if they'll even bother with them in part 3 for their reinterpretation of Dune Messiah if they haven't already. I have people at work and friends asking me why the spice matters, what's the point, people thinking it is just a random space cocaine, etc who have no idea how important it is to the guild.
Although I do without hesitation admit to loving the cinematic achievement that this film is, Denis Villeneuve has accomplished something for the ages ... for the purposes of the Dune adaptation talk, not only are The Spacing Guild and the other schools ( the Mentats & Suk School) left out as vital players (by now it's out that the Thufir stuff was filmed but cut from Dune: Part Two) ... I get that the focus on the Bene Gesserit was a logical default focal point. All you're left with then is the Emperor with House Corrino with his Sardaukar, the Great Houses of the Landsraad and the Bene Gesserit v the Fremen united behind Paul Muad'Dib. ... but where is the conversation about the link between the Spice Melange and the Sandworms of Arrakis? (I suppose since the Water of Life is blue and exposure to Melange turns human eyes blue, it's a hidden in plain sight clue.) Can we really tell the Dune tale without the Spacing Guild though? And you're right @@JCDenton3, why does the Spice Melange matter So much? What was Herbert saying if it was vital to all space "travel" not just about a scarce resource... but one without which worlds of humans would be stranded? It's why in Paul's visions billions will starve if the jihad goes forward and he limits or ends Spice production. Lucas Blade's video of changes was fantastic though ... and seeing those who know and possibly love the source material so engaged in these discussions is a gift!
@@JCDenton3I just rewatched part one and its pretty implicitly stated a few times that it’s the most valuable substance in the universe because it allows guild navigators to plot paths between the stars - I don’t think Denis is the kind of film maker who says it 10 times for the people in the back though either
@jonnowocky8179 I only recall them saying it once when Paul is studying Arrakis before going there. If they say it more than once that is good, but it's very unlike Villenueve to violate the "show don't tell" principle of filmaking. Showing the Guild in some capacity, either indulging in spice, plotting like in the 84 version, or siding with Paul at the end to ensure the supply is safe would have been more powerful than just telling the audience briefly. It doesn't ruin the movie(s) by any means, but it's just an odd thing to not prioritize since like I mentioned none of the new fans I know really understand why spice is worth all this conflict beyond giving you weird visions.
Thanks, I appreciate it. Yeah TH-cam has a lot of competition, but I'm starting to gain subscribers. And in the process my video editing has gotten a lot better.
people are too busy calling part two a masterpiece; its a combo of dune fanbois who r just happy due is in cinema and run of the mill fiml fans who r used to the usual marvel drivel so they think this was amazing; but i think the dialog and the story was poor
I think the changes are made for two central reasons: 1. To make it clear to audience that the prophecy is pure manipulation and that there is a terrible price for Paul's decision and 2. To make it clear that although Paul's hand was forced he was still motivated by revenge I think in the book Paul gets off a little too easy since it seems no matter what he did he was screwed. Scenes like him killing the Baron with his own hands and humiliating the emperor made it a lot clearer this is what he really wanted and that he isn't the actual victim here. Personally I don't think it was so necessary to spell it out that the Fremen were exploited by Paul and the Bene Gesserit but the reality is a lot of people have just had the entire moral of the story go over their heads, so to honour the legacy of the books I think it was for the best that they made it clear in no uncertain terms.
He did not ( in the books easily ) at all he suffered non stop till COD’s ending , his whole story was nothing but suffering you sure you read the books?
I’d agree that Denis was extra careful to not allow room for the audience to misunderstand Paul’s dubious motivation and decision making. By the reactions after the film in the cinema, everyone had that simultaneous (and weird) feeling of being entertained but also devastated at the same time. Not any easy feat
hearing u break down of changes from the book re-affirms how good the miniseries was as far as script and dialogue and story telling and the runtime was of the miniseries was 4 hours 10 mins; while the new Dune had a total combined run time of about 5 hours 20 mins , so he had over an hour more yet still told less story.
Totally agree, the miniseries was a true adaptation of the book. Also with 20mil budget vs 320 mil they accomplished more, I was completely immersed in the story and understood the motivation of every character completely.. DV version has so many points when it does the exact opposite for me. No character development at all, their motivation vague and the most important parts just left out completely (wierding way, space guild, mentats, fedaykin training, forcing the Emperor and Guild to accept his terms etc).
Personally my greatest disappointment in the film is the portrayal of Paul’s and Chani’s relationship. Since in Dune messiah we see the downfall of Paul, and how he loses both of his visions up to the moment Chani dies and the children are born, how is this defining moment going to be portrayed in the film? Paul is heartbroken when chani dies, we see him taking to himself about how there was no way of saving her despite all his efforts and asks for her to forgive him, how he loses his will to live afterwards. I believe Not showing the first child and its death is a serious storytelling error.
Getting a glimpse of the Golden path seems like a more than good enough reason to get depressed. I don't think Chani in the books is really a core part of the story.
Many fans were upset about the transformation of Paul from a presumed hero to an anti-hero figure "so soon" in the events of the film, but DENIS himself stated that Herbert made DUNE MESSIAH exactly for the fact that readers did not see the threat of a messianic figure in Paul, so he rectified it in the 3rd book. Knowing this, DENIS took that knowledge and tried to rectify it in the film in the fact that PAUL is turning into some sort of anti-hero at the end (the Fremen speech, him killing the Baron, and him forcing the Emperor to kiss his ring) all of these are major changes to logically set him up directly in the 3rd film as a fierce Emperor. Also, his sister in the womb along with her appearance in his vision tend to give off the vibe of a good sister, someone who understands the grand situation they are fated to live.
I'm not upset about that it makes sense if you're doing a trilogy in which Paul is going to abandon the "golden path" to stop himself from throttling humanity. Even if it is for humanity's survival long term.
Messiah is there to make you realize the consequences of the messiah and the fanatics. I would have understood better if there was no plan for dune messiah
I agree. I look at prescience as a weapon, power, with Paul being the first to wield it. The jihad was necessary not only to eliminate the possibility of rebelling against his rule but also to cut off any other lines to prescience. Paul felt entitled to this path by his sense for vengeance. The golden path is an answer to this abuse of power by taking the steps to eliminate the weapon of prescience altogether from humanity. We can argue Paul's use was selfish and without greater purpose, while Leto II was ultimately to set humanity free. This does make Paul a ruthless dictator - no different than his Harkonen ancestors and worse than even the Emperor. We need the changes in this movie to setup this contrast of motives.
The point Herbret is making here is despite how good your intentions are blind faith is dangerous. One of the things Paul says in Dune Messiah is: even if he die right now it won't stop fremen killing in his name. He wasn't evil motivated anti-hero, but a man on his knees, who've seen no other choice. In the film however he's some sort of Anakin, joining the dark side because of his own personal drama.
I don't like the exclusion of Spacing Guild as they're the real power brokers of the Imperium and not the Emperor but that's my only disappointment. Paul getting their support through blackmail by holding spice trade hostage was crucial to his success.
@@FatalxBladeWe see some of their representatives when Herald of the Change comes Caladan to pass Arrakis to House Atreides but other than that no as far as I'm aware. Spacing Guild was reduced to the background in this adaptation.
@@DefactoOverlordits only mentioned briefly in part one, that spice is needed for interstellar travel. Imo they shoulve dug deeper into the spacing guild. But that mightve made things too complicated. Idk book adaptions are not easy i guess
[SOME SPOILERS] The fact that the Great Houses refuse Paul's claim to the throne is not only a complete nonsense, but negates the coherence of the universe. In the book, why does Paul become Emperor ? Because his capability to destroy spice forces the Spacing Guild to side with him, and doing so, leaves no choice for the Great Houses to comply too. We can see a scene where the two navigators present in the entourage of Shaddam IV apply Paul's instructions to withdraw the highliners orbiting Arrakis and take the Great Houses armada back home. Now, in the movie, the Great Houses refuse to recognize Paul as the new emperor. That means that in this version of the universe, the Guild has not a power strong enough to force the decision on the Noble Houses, and that means that possessing the mean of destroying spice is not enough a threat to give Paul supreme authority. So, in just a few minutes at the end of 5 hours of movie, the story manages to establish that spice is not that important - in fact has no importance at all - nullifying the central place Arrakis should have since the beginning. Secondly, in the movie, the Fremen jihad is not at all a holy war, that is a war to propagate a religion, but a "classical" war of conquest with blatant political goals. You don't motivate holy warriors by setting blatant political goals. If we take the example of the crusades in medieval Europe, the pope did not intice populations by saying "let's go conquer the Holy land and establish the Crusader States of Outremer, they said - sincerely or not - let's free Jerusalem and the Christ's sepulchre. In the movie, Paul turns full "James Bond bad guy" and doesn't even try to hide the political aspect of the war against the Great Houses.
I was puzzled by the complete lack of the Guild in the movie. They never even point out that the Houses will not even be able to travel through space on their own without the Guild.
@@mmartinu327 There are two motives, one conscious and the other inconscious: in appearence, it's a holy war, that is a religious war to convert the non-believers to Fremen religion. Fremen are described in the book as a wanderer people (the Zensunni) persecuted for millenia and fleeing from plant to planet until they find Arrakis, where they settle. the jihad is some sort of comsic revenge. It's not at all Paul's decision, but Paul was the trigger, his appearence is the sign that "the time has come" for the Fremen and since they have tamed the Guild, they have now the motive, the incentive and the means. And known only to Paul due to his powers as Kwizatch Haderach, the jihad has deeper, more primal roots: it's the species reaction of mankind to millenia of stagnation due to the archaic feudal system, the casts, the impossibility to freely travel across the stars, and the Bene Gesserit tampering with the natural evolution. Herbert describes the jihad as a deep genetic urge for chaos and free, random mixing of the genes.
I feel that they've made the fremen too 'good' in the movies, from my recollection book they have many admirable qualities but are pretty much religous fanatic's and half the tension in the story is Paul and Jessica making sure they don't do or say something that is not in line with their beliefs as they would likely just kill them. So Chani being so against it is kind of world breaking for me.
@@FatalxBladeI think having that religious divide with the Fremen makes their culture more realistic. You see this in many real-life religions. In the books, the Fremen are, for the most part, similar with their beliefs. I think the movie benefits from having to fight to convince the non-believers of who Paul is, and shows the problems of blindly following religious leaders. That divide magnifies how problematic religious fanaticism can be.
Agree. And I think the second movie did a really good job of showing Paul’s transformation from heir to a political aristocracy /figurehead to full on Master of the Universe. And clearly making the point that the later was definitely not a good thing!
@@yoshiplaysmc2163 I think that's a bad thing. The entire point of the book is that on such a barren planet, under guidance of an external force, people would communally cling to salvation through a religion. I don't think it's more realistic for them to have a modern secular category to them.
In the OG Frank Herbert universe, before Brian added the later books, it was never a "Skynet/Matrix" AI uprising, but a cultural revolution against how machines have turned everyone into unthinking drones. I like this version better. A revolution against "social media" not a war against "Skynet".
…. It’s always been that hasn’t it? Both in Frank and Brian’s books. As far as I understand it? Brian just added more details and an actual set of stories behind the butlerian jihad, the thinking machines, the humans who caused the subjugation of all humans at the hands of humans thinking machines. Brian may have added that many humans were endlaved during this time, and that makes sense. Because the thinking machine empire ruled for a very, very long time. Slavery would be inevitable on that kinda timeframe anyways. But if someone knows better than I, plz correct me. I’ve only read as far as god emperor (gonna be reading the last two this spring) and I’ve done a lot of reading online about the lore/world outside of those four books. And this is just what I’ve gathered from all that.
@antonradke5943 The recurring theme of the Frank Herbert books is mankind overcoming stagnation to allow growth, biologically and socially. Just one small example is that spice is a crutch that limits humanity, so Leto II restricts humanity from any space travel so they will eventually find a way to overcome that over reliance. Technology is viewed in much the same way, Herbert was a humanist and interested in our potential, not so much about gadgets and shiny toys. Human reliance on technology was seen as a crutch because it softened our skills - how many people today know how to calculate basic numbers, or write a grammatically correct sentence, without computer aid? The Butlerian Jihad in Frank's work was implying machines took something from mankind - our ability to grow and develop and continue evolving as a species. People with machines oppressed those without, not the machines directly, and that oppression was wrong because they weren't actually smarter or stronger or better, they just had access to the technology to do it. The Jihad erased that distinction and freed humans to pursue their own potential again, to allow people to create and grow without limit. Machines should not think for people, and nor should other people be thinking for people - we should all think for ourselves, but that would be the next step. The first step of what was accomplished with the BJ was later built upon by Leto II, who took the next step for mankind by spreading them throughout the galaxy and terrorizing them to fear centralized authority forever by instituting the golden path. Basically, just having robots enslave people robs the work of its entire message and recurring metanarrative, it also makes our progress receed back to the first foundational step humans took in this setting by rejecting thinking machines.
Brian Herbert’s cash grab crap novels are not canon. Frank Herbert loathed Star Wars, and thankfully he never lived to see Brian turn Dune into Star Wars.
@@antonradke5943No it was not like that, and I don’t trust that Brian was honest about those “notes.” In Dune it was made very clear that The Butlerian Jihad was as much a Jihad against the men who enslaved the Imperium with AI, as it was against the use of Thinking Machines themselves.
Portrayal of Alia was pretty much off, but I didn’t pay too much attention to it because her main arc comes later. The main turn-off for me was an alteration of Chani, one of my favorite female characters. She’s vital for understanding the original story - which hints that books 2 and 3 will be massively altered too. And Fremen culture was basically obliterated. The way they disrespected Stilgar was kind of hard to see.
Considering the liberties they took with making changes I expect the 3rd part if it attempts to blend Messiah with children of Dune to be a bit of a cluster fuck. A beautiful cinematic version but I don't think we've seen anything in terms of changes yet compared to what's to come.
Basically the whole second part gets majority of the book continuity wrong besides the major plot points. The one part that was pretty unforgivable was that they changed Paul's motivation for moving toward his visions of the Jihad, which was due to his son's death at the hand of the harkonnen spies. Chani isn't against Paul's motivation in the end due to her own grief, and knows that Irulan is just a pawn.
I will have to be convinced to even think about seeing “Dune Part III” after being totally put off by Part II. Doesn’t anybody realize that Jessica has been pregnant with Alia for 4 years at the end of Part II? Why did they change that timeline so drastically? That’s the longest human pregnancy EVER! I loved the scenery, the worms were absolutely fantastic and stunning. Your breakdown of Part II was very good and I am glad there is someone out there that questions why . . . Why the hell did they decide to change the storyline so drastically. Chani being pissed off at Paul for most of the movie was a very disappointing plot change. Her unconditional love for Paul was the only thing that kept Paul in the ‘here and now’, and, most importantly, to the one factor that kept Paul human. He could only feel emotions of love, sorrow, and caring while she was alive and with him. This was explained in the Arakeen (sp) scene before the encounter between Shadam and his retinue and Paul and the Fremen.
I’m a Dune Books maximalist. Timothy Charmless and ZenDiesel were completely miscast as Paul and Chani. Did they purposely make Feyd Rautha look like Andrew Tate for ‘messaging’ purposes? The film was a poor representation of the complexity of Dune. RIP Frank Herbert.
Yes! Well said. And well recalled. Princess Irulan was not an astute Bene Gesserit, she was a middling Bene Gesserit at best-She had more of an independent streak, which is why she eventually flipped sides. Her individuality is what made her maybe my favorite female character in the book. But foreseeably, in the movie they girl bossed her for the woke cult leaders who run the culture now.
I watched dune 2 at the theater 3 days ago after waiting for it since years. I became very depressed and i still feel empty for no reason. Im thinking now to read the novels cuz i cant wait another 4 years for the part 3
This is what happened with me and it happened with avatar as well. When the story and world building is so good and fantastical, coming back to reality is sad bc it’s bland in comparison. It was a phenomenon documented in the news when avatar came out, I wouldn’t be surprised people have the same reaction with dune 2
The way Zendaya plays Chani im not a fan of. She is a great actress but she seems to disagree with Paul so much and spends the second half of the film looking angry eveytime they make eye contact. Why is she even with him? She doesn't even seem to like him
Great video. The biggest things I missed were the political intrigue between the characters. There was almost none of it in the movie adaptations, and yet it added so much depth to the books. (Also revealing suspicions around the source of the prophecy was overdone in the movie, if it needed to be there at all. Everything else was subtle, but this was hammered again and again and again. I guess it was an attempt at making the conflict more personal and direct.)
I think the focus on part 2 was too much on battles and action and too little on characters and the "political drama". But it's typical when making movies for the big crowd.
For those who think that Alia should have been in the movie, can you name which child actor you think could have actually pulled off the role? Because I was worried that no matter who played Alia, it simply would not do the character justice since she is such a complex character.
No, I'm not familiar with child actors. Your point is valid. I'd still rather them swing for the fences. Or, at least instead of secretly filming just one scene with Anya. Made her a bigger part through visions. When they finally revealed Alia was in it I thought they were going to de-age Anya Taylor-Joy.
While the DUNE 2 movie was great Cinematography and mostly faithful to the book. As a movie, I found it seriously lacking emotional connection between the characters. The closest were Paul and Stilgar and Gurney. He seemed distant from both his parents and even his lover. Chani also seemed to be 10% in love with Paul and 90% hating his guts. She seemed to always have resting B-face. OVerall, for all the budget and allotment of 2 movies, I felt much more connections to the 1984 Dune even with its deviations from book.
Great video and I’m in the same mind with the adaptations. For me it seems like the more detailed sci-fi elements which made the book so interesting and engrossing have been simplified for the big screen. However I get this had to happen and im still very happy with both of Denis films they definitely live up to the spectacle that is frank herberts dune
@@FatalxBlade i think in terms of audiences and maximising the films profit the producers have to simplify and change the characters motivations as there is only so much story/detail that can be put into a film in comparison to a book. And not every audience is going to be interested / able to understand the deep lore (i.e. the sandtrout) and are buying the film for the rollercoaster of action heavy sci-fi, as is the downfall of Hollywood. I think stilgars character is a great example as mentioned he seems to be more for comedic effect in this film where in the book he is quite the opposite which I think is done for the viewers benefit to break up the seriousness of the film. I would have loved for this film to follow the book directly but I’m not sure on the size of the audience that would have captured specially with warners bros objectives for the film monetarily
Great video specifically in outlying changes, but I disagree with a lot of your beliefs that the changes were poorly executed. I firmly belive folks have a really difficult time separating multimedia adaptations. Some folks expect things to always be 1:1, and leave no room for artistic vison or interpretation in various media types. As a multi-decades long fan of the entire Dune saga there is no scenario in which someone like myself wouldn't want more on screen when the quality is this high. However, there's unfortunately no scenario where we would have gotten the likely 3x 5 hour long movies to really touch on every thread just for the first book alone. After two viewings and speaking with friends I feel almost all of the changes were largely positive to make a better, more compelling and cleaner story within the medium. I firmly believe this is the best adaptation to date in terms of quality of work and presenting the most important overarching themes of Frank Herbert's work to a wider audience, while still hiding a plethora of easter eggs from the books to pull at my heart strings. Which for me, means I now have so many more friends now to share my love of Frank Herbert's work with. In the end, I dont belive perfect can exist in any adaptation, but I can easily recognize both Frank and Villeneuve have created masterpieces in their own wheelhouses.
I do want to be clear I did like the movie and am glad we got it. I don't need everything to be 1 to 1. But, I do live by the philosophy that if you're going to change something, make it as good as or better than the original. And I'm sure that was the intention for me though some of the changes did not land. I am biased towards the Alia change yes, because now I only get Alia for one movie. So, that change aside watching this movie I simply felt very little emotional connection to Paul and Chani. So, when Paul says something like I'll love you as long as I breathe it doesn't really do anything for me because they've been together for at most a matter of months. And most of our scenes of them, they are at conflict with one another. So, Chani riding off on the worm I don't care about. I honestly think I'd prefer he just get with Irulan in the next movie. The Feyd Rautha arena fight makes less sense in this movie. We see him fight a bunch of drugged Atreides and then are supposed to be impressed he fought one not drugged. The arena audience apparently loves this and Feyd is a hero because of this? We then see Feyd shortly after almost defeat Paul. Which looks bad because we just saw a scene where Feyd could barely defeat one not drugged warrior. I don't want to go through all my thoughts in this one comment because I will likely just make a review or something instead. I am glad that you got the feeling of this being a masterpiece. Coming out of Part One I was very hopeful for this movie and watching it did not give me the feelings of a masterpiece. I think it's good, and I think in the next movie some of these open plot threads could make more sense. For me I have to stay honest to how I felt coming out of it both times. I liked it more the second time, but for me the movie has flaws. I'm not trying to take anything away from you by saying that I wish I could love it the way you did. And I still the Denis made a solid film that for me has more style and less substance.
@@FatalxBladeRegarding the movie Feyd Ruatha arena fight - as with a lot of good screenplays, I believe it condensed multiple ideas eloquently. Harkonnens are exemplified to be cruel and violent, Feyd is shown to have a little dimension in having his own code of honour and some intelligence. Also regarding Geidi Prime, the idea for their sun to have a limited spectrum was chosen to show how the houses of dune are shaped by their worlds (shot via infra red). The switch between indoor lighting and IR as they stepped into ‘sunlight’ was pretty incredible too.
@@jonnowocky8179 Fair, I still don't think the scene optimized their time. We already know the Harkonnens are cruel. The scene gave us no new information, in the book version that scene had levels of manipulation going on at once serving a purpose. As far as the color saturation goes I was just poking fun at it and letting people know that it didn't look like that in the books.
Very honest commentary on Dune p2 Totally agree with you Personally for a 2h40min movie, 4 major plot gears are missing 1.Alia 2. Guild Navigators and Highliners 3. Leto Atreids II, the Elder 4. Thufir Hawat ans Mentats Additionally, please note that the role of mélange and its connection with worms was totally neglected
My biggest letdown was the removal of the Guild and Mentats. I do think Alia is just being saved for the next movie.Even with the long running time, throwing too much in would result in the same negative reaction 1984's version had, which was, "Its too confusing!". This resulted in a narrator was added to explain things, which I'm glad wasn't added. When I think about the time necessary to explain Leto II, the Guild and Thufir properly, (like 2-3 5 min scenes each), cuts had to be made. Here's hoping he can put the Guild and Mentats back in for movie 3.
Yes I agree, so much left out. As book readers we can at least fill in some of the gaps-For moviegoers who never read the source material, so much must’ve gone right over their heads.
Her portrayal was an odd decision. I think maybe they wanted her to be more independent and free thinking or something. It created way too much unnecessary conflict. Making their love story on screen hard to be emotionally invested in.
@@FatalxBladeI think it was supposed to be a reflection of how the audience should be feeling towards Paul since he is manipulating an entire population of people into thinking he is their messiah. I think this conflict adds depth to what imo, was a very superficial and one dimensional relationship in the first book between Paul and Chani.
@@eido4220agreed I think it would have been harder to demonstrate the idea the the prophecy was completely made up in the movie in comparison to the books just because u have such little time to develop that idea and this conflicting relationship with Chani reveals that to us quickly and easily shows the viewers (who many will not have read the books) the difference between the Kwisatz haderach and the Lisan al gaib
@@FatalxBladeit was already hard to be invested in the love in the book. In the movie you get to see their relationship grow, in the book with the timeskip, i feel like you’re just meant to take it at face value that they’re in love, but their love isn’t really demonstrated well in text
Chani was the worst part of the show. She was a way better character in the books. Paul's about to save her people and unlock the planet but she just wants to make some selfish stance against religion.
Thufir had shot several scenes with Feyd apparently that didn't end up making the cut, same seems to be true for Count Fenring which is sad because I was really looking forward to that.
I think Thufir being cut out entirely sucks but i also think its just meant to be glossed over like "oh everyone during the raid must have died." the person i went to go see Part 2 with thought Gurney was dead after his last scene in Part 1. easier to just wave it all away with that aspect. i love that G Prime just used all the Gieger stuff from Jodos dune basically. Them all looking the same on a giant place of grey as a sort of Perfect Warrior Race rivaling the sardukar was a cool choice. Stripping all individuality essentially to become the perfect living death machine of sorts as a people.
The biggest issue for me was Paul and Chani's relationship. How committed to each other they were. (As you stated) Paul explaining to Chani about marrying the princess, and Paul stating to the princess basically "i will never touch you and you will never have kids. So do what you want with your lovers but..." Chani was aggravated more by Paul being gone all the time more than him marrying the princess. If memory serves, freman relationships were more similar to viking relationships (you're together because you want to be together not because of a religious/state act).
I loved the changes. The only one I didn't like was removing the Navigators and their importance from the film. In the book, they are Spice sensitive and can sense that Paul is not bluffing at the end and will destroy spice production, and since the Great Houses cannot move without the Guild, it's they who pull the teeth of the Great Houses and send them home. I love Chani's change. Due to the lack of a time jump, she has only known Paul a few month and it's realistic to show her not totally in Paul's camp, no matter how much she loves him. I liked that Villaneuve updated Fremen society. In the book, the Fremen men and women were both ferocious warriors, but in Fremen society there was no honor in a woman being a warrior. Women didn't gain a great reputation or honor in Fremen society for being a great fighter. If Fremen men were beat by a woman, they were shamed. They weren't told that it would be an honor to be defeated by a woman warrior, it was an insult and a shame. That's how little women were thought of by the men of Fremen society. They were also passed around like tradiing cards if a man wanted them. What she wanted was irrelevant. SO glad to see that omitted. I didn't miss Thufir. We didn't need him to pit uncle against nephew and vice versa in the Harkonnen household. I liked that Villaneuve emphasized the political differences among the Fremen. Made them more realistic instead of a one-think, one-mind, easily fooled Fremen society.
my biggest concerns are the fights scenes, they are ok at best. and how did they get up to the sphere at the end of the movie. AND WITH all that technology and power, couldn't the seventh tell that they were getting surrounded and beat and just leave to orbit and kill them all ???? doesn't add up.
I was surprised by how much they changed from the book, but mostly I was surprised by the weird pacing. I thought the split into two movies would allow for a steadier pace for the second half of the story, but... the first part of the movie trails quite a bit and so the climax is a crazy *sprint* to get to the end. It's a big contrast from the steady pacing and more faithful adaptation of Part 1. Sadly my interest in Dune stops at the first book, the rest are simply not my bag xD
Believe it or not the Part One movie actually covers two thirds or more of the book. And somehow this movie still feels like a rush in the second half despite having less of the book to adapt. Yeah you're not the only one who stops after book one or shortly after.
@@FatalxBlade yeah, I feel like DV was more interested in Paul's struggle with his role in everything than with the actual events of the book. If they hadn't introduced all the new concepts and maybe shortened Feyd's introductory arc (the screentime they spent on him and the bene gesserit schemes was too much for his impact on events) they could've fleshed out the ending more. By the time they finished introducing Feyd I was actually thinking they might end the movie before the final battle and move that to part 3 somehow xD
I've heard Frank Herbert's Dune (the miniseries) is the most accurate but I've also heard they added a lot. Doing a video on how faithful it is and how you like the changes could be interesting.
It nearly spoiled it for me the lack of love and affection and forcing her to save Paul. It made the end scene feel hollow and I was happy she left. It is still a great movie.
Why do you think that it's perfectly OK to ditch things because don't match our society's values? Do you think women used to work as servant for whoever killed their husbands when Herbert wrote those books? I can understand making changes or ignoring certain non essential parts in order to adapt a book, but doing it because "It doesn't match the values of our society" is ridiculous. Contrary to what was said by the cast, Herbert wasn't promoting women oppression.
? I don't think that. I'd rather it have remained faithful in the books. I dislike when modern society values creep into movies. Makes what should feel like an alternate universe instead feel like it takes place in 2024. In the video I think all I might've said on it was I get why they did it. Not that I agree with it.
Yeah I just checked all I said was I am not surprised Hera got cut with the practices being outdated. I never gave an opinion on it. You definitely extrapolated what I said making your own assumptions. I get how you got there, but no.
It's all good. I just wanted to clarify a bit because we do actually agree. It's just not something I got into in this video. I gave my opinion on some changes. I guess I didn't delve into the whole adapting to fit into modern society's beliefs.
The spice is vital to space travel. The Spacing Guild and its navigators, who the spice has mutated over four-thousand years, use the orange spice gas, which gives them the ability to fold space.? No spice No travel , so why did the other houses not recognize Paul as the new emperor? Considering they and or everyone else cannot travel space with the spice..
@@unclefranklin4575that was messiah I just read it so it’s fresh In my mind. Also just reading dune kind of ruined this movie for me as there was scenes I was waiting for that never happened
@@pnw_jxsh1334 yeah. I'm really disappointed there's no Thufir for the third damn time. Out of everything that gets cut out, they go for one that's already gotten axed in the last two adaptations
I felt differently about some changes vs others. Some that I think were improvements were the characterization of Chani and the addition of the Fremen fundamentalists, Paul's commitment once choosing to embrace this messianic persona, and the mechanics of Alia's mind already showing signs of being overwhelmed. On the other hand, I think Jessica's more malicious portrayal is less intriguing as characterization despite being good for the plot, additional scenes between Feyd and Lady Fenring were missed, and Paul's willingness to engage in Jihad removed some of the nuance that made Dune so legendarily good as a cautionary tale. Regardless, I think these adaptations are brilliant. I'm happy to be taken in a slightly different direction throughout this journey as I believe the best adaptations provide you with a unique experience that still succeeds in keeping the feel and themes of the book in tact (Primary example being, of course, LOTR). As a Dune fan, I'm eating good.
I hadn’t seen it yet, but I’ve read all the books, so there’s no spoilers for me. My friends were talking about how Paul killed the Baron. I was like... WHAT? Looks like the most faithful adaptation of Dune is still the 2000 TV miniseries.
I was hoping for more Alia stuff in the new movie. That was a disappointment. Not to mention the obvious cliff hanger. Most of the theatre audience I assume didn't know the original story as I got a feeling there was a lot of "Oh that it?"
What the movie producers don't understand is that the readers knew that Paul was in it for revenge and still liked him anyways. The modern trope of "revenge bad" gets obnoxious to me sometimes and it's part of the reason I liked dune so much. Paul gives everyone what they deserve for wronging him. But I also think there might be a different reason that the plot is going this way. And it's possibly because the books after the first dune weren't received so well. So they are going their own path to possibly spin the plot to be more intriguing. I guess we shall see.
Generally i don't like the tone of the movie as much as the tone of the book but there is one change that I did quite like tho. The ad-on at the end that the Great Houses refuse to recognize Paul's reign which essentially spurs the Great Jihad actually makes sense. I never quite understood that in the book; like why does the Fremen holy war consume the galaxy? What exactly spurred the Fremen on their great conquest once Arakis was liberated. So that change actually made alot of sense to me. Having a motive for the Jihad to actually happen and not just out of pure blood lust.
So let me clarify this. If you were a leader of a big house, and all your armies, all your ships, all your business and traveling uses Spice (Oil), and there is a person who can simply issue a command to destroy all of that, you would go and fight him? I mean he can just stop delivering spice to you and your army and all business would just end. Makes no sense whatsoever.
@@peace_love_unity i think one possible reason for the Houses refusal in the movie, might be that they see this as an opportunity to take control of spice themselves. After Paul completely throws off the power balances in place, it might make other groups think they can do the same. Harness their united efforts to put new structures into place that favor them more. Why leave the control of a resource as precious as spice in the control of someone, who wants to leverage it against others, instead of trying instead to take control of it themseleves? I do think either action (either surrenderring to the forceful hand or biting back) could make sense, though I guess we'll see how it plays out in the next film..
@@aminahm4911 I respect your opinion. But with respect, I think you are trying to find reasons why the bad writing makes sense. In the book everything made 100 % sense and in 5 hours of 2 movies DV could`ve explained everything quite well. Starting a war when one side owns 99 % of all oil is nonsense, especially when they are religious fanatics and fundamentalists. I don`t like as a movie audience when I have to find excuses for the writers why things are happening the way they are. As a die-hard Dune fan I won`t watch the third movie (at least not in cinema) cuz this is not Dune, it`s a fan fiction written by a 3 year old. But again, I respect your opinion :) Take care!
You say Lady Jessica played an antagonist’s role, but I didn’t see that in the film. She was driven and perhaps did the wrong thing, but she wasn’t an antagonist or even a villain at all.
I see your point, since ultimately she helped Paul. But, it was through manipulation. At the same time the film is very clearly wanting us to see that the path Paul is on is "bad". And that Chani might be right, which would make Lady Jessica an antagonist of sorts. Plus her interactions with Alia don't "seem" healthy. Watching it made me feel like she was an antagonist. Which in the next film Paul may very well be portrayed the villain right away.
Also it was lady Jessica worried about Paul becoming the messiah as he excepted very early in the book versus the movie he’s fighting and lady Jessica is shoving him into it
How do you expect Chani to follow Paul and have his children and also have the rest of the story play out when they now have to manufacture a conflict between them because feminism strong women. Its going to add more screen time to a pointless romance that could have been wrapped up in this movie.
Can you do a parallel comparison on Lynch, game cinematics, Dune 2000 series , DUNC vs the book, in terms of events as well as design/looks descriptions?
Yeah I can add it to the list. That sounds like 2 video ideas though unless I'm misreading. Edit: Unless you mean you want one video comparing all those properties to the book, and also go into how accurate the look of each one is to the book.
@@FatalxBlade yeah, just elements.and descriptions. 1 video all adaptations of same moment vs book's same moment or design description If it's not too much work ofc
Just watched Dune 2 today and I enjoyed the cinematography, the music some of the acting but it left me overall somewhat irritated. At first I thought I fell to some kind of Mandela-effect, maybe misremembering the books but Alia's absence shook me wide awake.
I was willing to suspend it for the most of the movie but the ending lost it for me. Paul's a better person in the book he makes Cheney feel secure. Paul never made the choice to be that he only played along to hopefully find a way out. His journey was his alone, They really under did that point.
I just read Dune (for the second time). You clearly forgot much about Dune. I would say number 1, change is that the fremen are already terraforming Arrakis, without any help (and need) of Lissan al Gaib
I've just watched the new movie and although I really enjoyed it, I was slightly put off by the changes as you mentioned. I suggest everyone should watch the mini series with Alec Newman as Paul. It was really good and with the extended time they got a lot more from the books into it. Also I'd love to see the other books in film too. If you haven't read them all then you are missing out. The Prequel books are brilliant at filling in the history. Great video, thanks.
I like all the changes tbh. Just wish the guild was still in the movie and fremen were connected and shared weird spice visions. Like when paul and chani fell in love with one another it was because they saw each other have a child in the future which is so cool.
Thanks for putting this together. My expectations for the movies were sky high. I loved the first Dune even though there were some big changes from the book. Dune part 2 is a beautiful movie, and it has great acting and amazing storytelling. The downside is that if you have read the books, the changes are very distracting and pull you out of the different moments. It is jarring. In particular, Chani and Jessica, but not only those two. These (the aforementioned females) are not minor changes, but really big changes that are continually in your face and repeated thoughout the movie. And it's not just that they are different, in my opinion the changes are much worse and less coherent than the movie. While I can see say that this a great "movie", I cannot say that it is a great or even good adaptation. Which really muddies the water of how much I enjoyed it. A passable adaptation, but still an objectively good movie (as far as the components that makeup a good movie).
Yes, I think you explained that well. I think I need to see part 3 before I can really judge this one entirely. It really depends how and if they answer some of these plot threads. The movie doesn't really have an ending, just a couple of cliffhangers.
Huge mistake was not to include the wierding way.. It was a 1vs1 fighting method developed by Bene Gesserit that was tought to Paul. One could develop God like speed in fights where it seemed to the opponent like a short distance teleport. This was why no Fremen could ever defeat Paul not because he was suddenly the best fighter ever without explanation... And he trained the Fedaykin to use this method to fight Harkonens and disrupt the spice production and eventually after years of training they had an army to beat the Harkonen using the wierding way... In the movie they just said they have nukes. How and why the Fremen were suddenly stronger than the Harkonen an Sardaukar armies combined was not addressed in the movie at all. If it was just numbers, Fremen could`ve won a looong time ago. So disappointing 🤷♂
Are you sure it was the Fremen that called Alia an abomination? I thought it was just the Bene Gesserit that labeled her an abomination because of her inheriting all the Bene Gesserit ancestral memories before she was born.
I get the distinction you're getting at. That was likely me inserting that word because I know the meaning of it. I think they actually called her a freak. Good correction.
No the fremen were scared of her and if not for Jami’s wife who escaped my mind pleading and telling the people what happened during the water or life drinking they may have never accepted her
I feel the mother and her unborn child are treated more villainous in the film is because I feel that religion itself is the villain of the film. Paul did not want to be a messiah, like all messiah stories, the difference being that he knows to take the role means the death of billions of people in a religious war that is yet to come. The original film from the 80's has Paul become a messiah, ultimate good guy, bring rain to a desert world and everyone lives happily ever after. In the film, the presence of a messiah spells death. People will fight to kill him and die for him. Instead of being a story about "is he or isn't he a messiah" it's more like "he clearly is a messiah, which is going to spell death." Religion is the villain.
I was honestly really dissapointed in part 2. I think part 1 made some intelligent omissions but part 2 really reworked the entire 2nd half of the book in ways that I don't think are great. I feel like the ending didn't really have a great pay off and the omission of alia was pretty jarring. I think most of the story changes weren't for the better but some changes I think I can understand. I think they felt like they couldn't do flash forwards or time skips and still keep the audience, I think most of the plot changes were just to dumb it down for a general audience and I suppose also to keep to a semi reasonable run time but we lost a lot story nuance with those changes. All of that said, I Watched this in imax and the action scenes and audio were 10/10 so there is that.
Thanks so much for this video! It's well researched and really interesting. Alia was my favorite character too, so I was very disappointed by Villeneuve's change on her character. I really wanted to see a toddler speaking like an adult. Denis also left out Paul's first son, Leto II's death by the Sardukar. I suspect Denis will just ignore Leto II from in his upcoming Dune Messiah movie.
I have no idea what Denis is cooking up for this supposed finale. It depends on how much he liked the plot of Dune Messiah. It's possible Chani has Leto II and the twins are never born. If Warner bros. wants to continue the franchise though they probably shouldn't let him stray too far from the ending.
It might be interesting to have Alia & Margot Fenring’s daughter (or son) take the place of the twins? Personally I think Messiah would need significant changes to make for a compelling screenplay (and one that lives up to the previous films, taking into account what wider audiences might want/expect out of it)
Bro, why is this video so subjective? I was hoping you would at least give a short summary of the changes before diving in with your own opinions, but mixing them up like this and stating your opinions as if they are fact makes this video nigh unwatchable.
Fair take, but I do not believe I stated my opinions as fact. I'm fairly positive that I simply provided commentary on my thoughts on the changes. Probably because I had just watched it and had opinions I needed off my chest, so I structured the video this way. I'm sorry it was annoying for you. My opinion does not invalidate your opinion of the film.
@@FatalxBlade Thanks for the polite reply. You have moments when you say "the film does this which is bad because it does this to the story" and I strongly recommend you say "the film does this which in my opinion is bad because I believe it does this to the story" instead. People want your personal input, obviously, but it's annoying as hell when people present their opinions as fact, even when it's easy to tell the difference.
@@collegeoffoliage6776 Hmmm well I assure you this was unintentional. I will rewatch the video with that in mind to see what you mean. In my future scripts I will make sure to present my opinions in a better way. I absolutely don't think my opinions are fact, but I do enjoy sharing them and hearing opposing thoughts. And np I always try to reply politely unless they're just being extremely rude or negative.
One of the biggest minuses of part 2 to me was how Harkonnen was made into this stereotypical evil and stupid house. Seems like Villenueve wanted them to be like the Orcs in the Lord of the Rings movies. The way Rabban, and the baron, pointlessly killed their own crew just out of frustration and irritation. seemed really ridiculous and uncessary and made me feel the movie was less believable. Another minus was the second part of the movie which seemed rushed and messy. The way Paul walks into the throne room and kills the baron (who was first injured by a Sardukar??? what?) seemed just odd.
That is a good point the Baron does get his suspensors slashed by a Sardaukar, I forgot about that. And yes I totally agree that the Harkonnens were very much just evil in the movie without much depth.
@@yum8666 they definitely have more nuance in the books then what is presented in these adaptations. Their house is in a lot of ways is the moral opposite of Atreides, but the characters themselves have more nuance. Particularly the Baron. I will admit Feyd was intriguing in this adaptation, but in a weird sadistic way. His character appeared to have some layers just not sure we got to see them all onscreen.
My theory for the big changes and shortened timeline in the films is that Paul is recognizing and intentionally choosing a different path from Paul in the books. He sees many possible paths, at least in fragments. Including the path we know from the novels. Paul in the movie is much more motivated to save Chani from death. His only viable option is to turn Chani away from their relationship early on. Before their love becomes too strong, and they have a child. He does this by choosing to drink the water of life two years earlier. Pissing off Chani. And changing her path into the anti-Paul character. Where she doesn't follow him into the holy war. And doesn't become his beloved concubine. Therefore she does not die in childbirth, nor battle. This change helps DV wrap up his trilogy, without leaving the end like it reads in Dune Messiah. Without the Chani pregnancy plot, Chani's character will most likely become the face of the Freman rebellion against Paul, to keep Arrakis dry. And ideal for the worms. The key to this theory is Jamis. The Jamis visions still occur long after Paul has killed him in their knife fight. Clearly sealed off timelines Paul can still access. Paul calls to Jamis for guidance. And is essentially encouraged to drink the water early. Because Paul drinks the water two years early, he takes real damage in his fight with Feyd. As his abilities aren't yet fully developed. And of course, Jessica does not yet give birth to Alia. It is possible that Chani could be pregnant with Leto. Which, if true, would mean he would likely survive to grow to Alia's age in the next film. This would be a surprising, unexpected twist. And Leto may not be aware his father is Paul. The emperor his mother is rebelling against. In part 2, Paul says Chani will come to understand. And Leto would be a way back for the two to see one another. Especially if Paul were to explain to Chani that it was the only way to keep them both alive. Paul has seen many different visions of Chani. One is Chani stabbing Paul. This may also be the path he has chosen. That he would prefer to be stabbed and possibly killed by Chani, than watch her die. Paul is so defeated at this crossroads, prior to drinking the water of life. It's clear to him there are no easy paths. No safe ways to keep her alive and in love with Paul. And as he said about going south with her... "I will do what must be done." While looking absolutely unconvinced by Chani's promise to never stop loving Paul, as long as he stays who he is. This Paul has read the books too. And he's chosen a different path. That's what the movies are about. So to be clear, no twins, no worm god emperor, no Chani death giving birth. DV is going to make the final chapter a powerful and conclusive end for Paul.
Paul's Prescience in Book One is open for interpretation, but based on just reading it. I do not think he has seen everything. I have not reread the rest of the series though which could retroactively make me wrong.
@@FatalxBlade oh no! Ahh I edited the spelling and lost your stamp of approval! Appreciate the love though, bro! So this theory is based on the clues Denis gives us in the films themselves. It's all about this Paul's visions. There is a lot we see, and a lot we can infer based on Paul's words and behavior. It's a deep dive into movie Paul's motivations... juxtaposed with the events of the books. So what do we see, purely watching the film, with regard to Paul's visions? And how do those visions influence his decisions? Well we see Paul's visions usually revolve around three things. Chani, the great jihad and Jamis. Initially his visions of Chani are about meeting her and being with her romantically. That is until he is exposed to spice for the first time. Then he sees visions of them together, as depicted in the books. Of them together as Messiah and concubine. And this terrifies Paul. He is terrified of a war in his name. A holy war. Even after his first spice exposure, Paul understands that some visions are possibilities, and some are certain. "Some things are crystal clear... I know you're pregnant" etc. Paul has visions about Chani loving him. And visions where Chani stabs him. Eventually we see Paul having a vision of Chani being killed. He is already romantically involved with Chani at this point. And is completely terrified about losing her. Now, the question is... are these all visions? Or hallucinations? And I believe they are visions. And this is where the films differ from the books... his visions of Jamis prove he can view into timelines that have been sealed off by his current path. In part one, Paul's visions of Jamis are that of his best friend, teaching him the ways of the Freman. The ways of desert life. I believe these visions are from a timeline where Paul didn't knock Jamis on the ground, when running up the rocks to better position himself while Jessica was taking Stilgar hostage. And because Paul DID knock him down... Jamis is bitter and humiliated. And demands a chance to redeem himself in the ceremonial knife fight. And had Paul somehow slipped around him, Jamis would be his great friend. And teacher. These visions allow Paul and Jessica to survive in the desert. And find their way to Stilgar and the others initially. In part two, Paul literally calls to Jamis. Placing his bare hand upon the spice that lay stop the desert sand. "Talk to me, Jamis." And Paul has a vision of Jamis teaching him how to be a good hunter. Telling him he needs to see as far as he can see. On top of his visions, he hears the voices from the deep. The Bene Gesserit voice. Calling for him to become the Kwisatz Haderach. To drink the water of life. Obviously Paul is regularly having these powerful visions. Especially when he is exposed to spice. Which Paul is extremely sensitive to. There's so many visions we don't see. But he gives us some pretty good clues as to what they are. THIS Paul, the Paul in the films... He is CLEARLY motivated by wanting to be with Chani. And wanting to save her from her fate. He can see why she might stab him. He can see why she might be with with him. He can see why she might die in battle. One thing is clear by his behavior... He knows that every path leads to heartbreak. They say life is about the journey, not the destination. And Paul's prescience means no longer enjoying the ride. He sees every choice ending in sorrow and horror. At the final crossroads, Paul is clearly depressed. He knows he has to take the water of life. And this reminds me of Paul in Dune Messiah. At that point in the books, Paul is absolutely all-seeing. And he allows the Princess Iulan, his wife, to poison Chani with birth control. It makes Chani sad that she cannot get pregnant. But Paul knows that's the only thing saving her from dying in childbirth. So he eventually thanks Irulan, after Chani dies, for giving them more time together. Chani tries talking to Paul about going south. "The world has made choices for us." But he knows the truth. If he takes the water now, Chani will hate him. And you can notice in this scene, that Chani starts to understand... Paul knows something she doesn't. When she cannot cheer him up with reassurance of her love. When Paul tells her he will do what must be done. This demonstrates how incredibly effected Paul is by Chani's love. He has seen several paths. All of them lead to losing her. One way or another. The vision we see which follows the book, of Paul as the Messiah, Chani dies in childbirth. In another path, she dies in the fire of war. In the path he chooses, Chani turns against him. She becomes like the rebel Freman in Dune Messiah and Children of Dune. Who turn away from Paul. And his goal to make Arrakis a green paradise. He isn't yet fully prescient until he takes the water of life. But the Paul we see in films has more access to visions than Paul from the books. He has seen fragments of that path. And is avoiding it by taking the water two years sooner. Saving Chani's life in the process. At the cost of her love. And their life together. From that point on, his only path forward is unavoidable. With almost no wiggle room. "There is a narrow way." Chani will eventually come to understand. Paul did what he did to keep her out of harm's way.
Really disappointed with what they did to Stilgar, he is better than comic relief, also heavily hinted in messiah(possibly CoD but haven't read that yet, that Stilgar follows Paul out of loyalty and honour that he has power and can save fremen but not out of some sense of religious fanaticism. He's often annoyed at Paul drifting away from Fremen beliefs and customs.
If you rewatch part one - he is exactly the same slightly comedic character in both films, from the moment he walks in to meet Leto to when lady Jessica gets the better of him. Giving him some eccentricity brought some much needed levity to a heavy film - but also aids in believing that he would be the sort of person willing to throw caution to the wind for a symbol or a sign. Great decision making imo
Weirding modules. Kill with a word.... completely left out of the movie as well as this analysis. It's a while I read the book, but I did not remember that Paul got injured so badly in the fight with Feyd. Feyd also had a poisoned blade hidden in his suit, which Paul avoids. When Paul silences the mother, he also refers to her gom jabar and commands her to look into the place where she cannot look. none of that in the movie. I don't believe there was an interaction between Jessica and the mother in the end confrontation as displayed in the movie. It's a good movie, but I think they left out too many of the powerful moments from the book. It would have made it a better movie, but probably a longer one as well. I like that they got rid of most of thinking processes of the different characters. We as viewers can fill in most of these internal conversations, without the need of putting them to the screen.
Weirding modules are only in the 1984 Dune Movie not the book. Yes, Paul was not badly injured in the fight. The movie also left out the poison blade as did the arena scene. The Bene Gesserit seem to be the main "antagonists" in Denis' adaptations. I assume they will be used even more prominently in his Dune Messiah adaptation.
I felt sure that they would end the first movie with the cliffhanger of Paul realizing his Harkonnen ancestry. I was really puzzled by the handling of the timing on that. Also the lack of explanation of Hawat's disappearance is annoying. Where did he go? They should've killed him in the first movie if he wasn't going to be in this one.
I don't believe there would have been no computers; tho I don't remember Herbert writing of such. It's just that after the Butlerian Jihad, there was a law, "You shall not make computers in the image of a human mind." I didn't think it was through evolution that they became human computers, but the "juice that stains the lips and gives the mind speed." Great research otherwise. Also, no OC Bible, or other histories that introduce chapters; but I was glad to see some history by Irulan there at long last. The ornithopters were great, and the shields much better than the blocky ones in the Lynch version. I didn't find his Leit Keynes convincing. No weirding modules? I think it was an awful way to end this movie, to leave people thinking that Paul broke his promises to Chani, and she goes off in disgust. They may have avoided this, because the idea of a concubine wasn't feminist enough; but its still a really awful ending. Another good plot sacrificed for PC. I too liked Ilea quite a lot. Although admittedly not on the Emperor's ship, her line in the Lynch film was unforgettable. It starts (inexplicably, admittedly) to rain on Arakis, and she looks at the Emperor: "And how can these things be? For he IS the Kwizartz Haderach." She should have been born by the time of the confrontation. I like the idea of what they did with the LOTR much better. With the exception of greatly expanding Liv Tyler's role (which admittedly did make for good viewing), they stayed pretty true to the books. When they departed, it wasn't for senselessly departing from the stories in the books, but to add scenes for the sake film continuity not in the books - but very much in their spirit and with carefully researched detail.
I coukdn't agree with you more! I really enjoyed both movies, but being A "Dune" lover all my life, I actually read it in 3 languages: French, Portuguese and English... I was disappointed with most of the changes, and the source material being so profound and iconic, I can't agree with most of those changes. And let's not forget the Guild, they have a capital importance in all the plot for it has the Planet-to-planet instant travel monopoly and forsee part of the danger the Atreides Family poses by taking back Arrakis. Pity for those changes (most of them were just done for idiotic reasons and quotas, I believe....). Yes, Alia and Chani are two of my favourite characters in the book. Zendaya was very well chosen for the role, plays it well but, you said it all... doesn't really fit. Changes in personality do not make her stronger either, just less inteligent and more of an "non Fremen" - Daughter-of-Liet . Alia being absent is shame and a loss. The same goes for the Mentats and their role in the Imperium, Paul's trainning and the general plot. Villeneuve could really have done better and deeper in a 5 hour movie. Best regards.
It's wild to think about this in such detail. I came out of the theatre feeling sort of empty. I basically just concluded that the first novel should have been three films. Far too much development is crammed into Dune Part 2 (unlike part 1 imo). So much potential was squandered. If the pacing of the first movie was enough to get a second, im confused why this wasn't just turned intl a trilogy. Would be nice if WB could have just committed to the full project from the get-go. It would have made sense since they have, y'know, maybe the best sci-fi director of all time. Maybe Villeneuve didnt want to so that though, idk. Anyway, great video man, thanks for putting this together. One suggestion, I think using hand/arm gestures less often and in a more varied/relevant way would improve your on screen presence. My two cents
Yeah I think a Dune trilogy for the first book would've fixed a lot of issues Denis ran into. I'm still working on my onscreen presence. Some people do find my hand motions odd. Part of it I think is a preference thing.
I do not like the woke addaptation of Dune 2. The first movie I had less problems with, not that many huge changes to the books except the gender swap... Why does everything need to be changed? If you want something different create your own title but leave the original be. Don't rape a master piece. I fully understand you can't put everything in a movie, but to change important parts of the story... sorry. The baron murdered by Paul instead of his little sister. She doesn't even gets born... The Raban not killed by the people of Arrakis. No child for Paul that gets slaughtered. Nuclear weapons instead of changed waters to destroy the spice. Chani being a strong, indipendent and angry, aggressive woman.. Toxic Feminism. Why? It sucked in my opinion. visuals and all no complains. But changing the story is a dirty filty woke move.
These changes are most often decided by the studio executives -and they really don't care about the quality of art or philosophical motives. They care about making money for their shareholders, hence comes the decision to make the movie accessible to near everyone, and as a result - we get a worse, strongly dilluted version of what could have been a masterpiece. Your train of thought is flawed when you try to attribute these changes to a nonexistent "woke mob". Nobody wanted this, these changes achieve nothing. People who wish for a better world aren't to blame for shit writing, corporate greed is.
tbh i dont really mind the idea of changing Chani's character to add more turmoil, since Chani in the books was just kinda mehh anyway, but i have other gripes. I think interpretations can and should take creative liberties and deciding to offer an opposing stance to the fremens blind faith, makes some of the story's themes easier to relay, while also making the fremen less unanimous (which u could argue is more realistic). What I am disappointed about is the romance in the film between Paul and Chani. It didnt really do it for me. I didnt care much for their romance in the books either, but I was hoping the films would breathe some life into it. Sadly, the actors' chemistry is not really there, and it went so quickly from flirty to "I will love you till the day i die"-levels of love and overall didnt seem very believable. Definitely could've been written better. All that said, maybe we'll still get some interesting completely new stuff in the third part with Chani...
Yeah I'm with you the chemistry was not there. The religious thing didn't work for me because I thought openly mocking the others beliefs felt too heavy handed and gave the movie a weird tone for me. The books don't really focus on the romance most of it is implied, letting you fill in the gaps. Which works for me. In the movie though the relationship had no emotional weight or believability. So, I agree with you I think you just liked it a bit more.
@@FatalxBladePaul made Chaney feel secure in the books that pointed to the strength of the relationship and the fact that he would not be with princess Erolon really drove that point home at the end of the book. This actually butchered the characters and the points that Herbert made in that book. Complete and utter mishandling of the story in my opinion.
There’s a limit to what you can show in 3 hours, especially if you haven’t been given the all clear to make a sequel. DV had to fit a round peg into a square hole.
This the best adaptation I can see why they took stuff out. But come on really who you found to adapt 2 year old talking like a adult weird with cgi and spice orgy l. the spice guild. Don’t forget run time I read the book and this is the best we’re to get. It is great. Like come on be reasonable
I like the movie, and when adapting for a general audience I get it. But, I don't think anything in the book is too weird for this film. The Harkonens are plenty weird in this film. Jessica creepily talking to her unborn fetus is weird. A 2 year old Alia would've fit in just fine. Plus they could've given her rapid aging and made her 10. All that aside, and not even thinking about the book. I do not think pitting our 3 main characters against one another is a good choice. It made the mother son dynamic developed in the first movie fall away. It made the love story between Chain and Paul feel more like a highschool relationship. The arena drugged plot point doesn't make much sense anymore. These movies together have over 5 hours of runtime. There was enough time to adapt differently. Not doing so was a choice. So, I disagree with this being the best adaptation possible. I did like it though I mean I saw it twice last weekend and will likely go again this weekend.
After reading many comments in this video, it seems the film changed a lot eventually make it less smart Also disappointed the guild naviagtor didn't show up after the hype of seeing their interpretations from artists out there
I am too lazy to watch this video so tell me about Paul's first son, Leto II the Elder who was the first child and the brother of Leto II. I heard he appeared in the first Dune book
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This is the first and only honest, non-fanboy, analysis of this movie....thanks man...
You're welcome. I'm in the camp of wanting to like the adaptations more than I actually do.
I spent two years waiting to see how Villeneuve would be able to deal with Alia on screen. I understand that it is a challenge and a big risk to cast a 4-5 years old child with such a unique role, but this is also a huge part of what makes the Dune book so unique. I was not ready for that big of a change in the story ...
I'm right there with you. I literally kept waiting to see her in a trailer. The only saving grace for me is that I really like Anya Taylor-Joy. So, hopefully the next movie is solid.
Same.
I really wanted to see if they would actually have a child actor like in dune(1984) but I honestly felt it would've been a little goofy looking if they did include that (not that jessica speaking to her unborn child wasn't) I've only read the first book so I really don't know how much things could change in future films from denis not including alia being born, but I still feel that denis did a really great job with this and all the things he did not include or added even were necessary and it was a great movie either way.
In response to reactions of my unpopular opinion of this new adaptation, I am going to upload the entire SciFi Channel miniseries, Dune, and Children of Dune to my TH-cam Channel. It will take me about a week, due to restricted data upload. I hope this provides entertainment to people who cannot find these miniseries anywhere else available.
They had young Alia speaking with Lady Jessica the entire movie… They had a 30 second scene showing an older Alia. This is such a dramatic comment
Great Job! Did it bother anyone else that the role of the guild and guild navigators was completely left out?
Bothered me a lot actually. It's a Guild navigator that tips off the Emperor early on of the threat to the known universe that's embodied in Paul Atreides. The Guild demands he exterminate Paul as soon as possible so that the spice may continue to flow and not cause a disruption. The Guild controls all transportation across the known universe, so leaving the Guild out in my opinion is a grave omission. Also, there was no mention of CHOAM, or the Mentats for that matter, (especially the fate of Thufir Hawat) which really bothered me as well
They're such a huge part of Dune it is actually wild they are barely even mentioned in the films so far. I wonder if they'll even bother with them in part 3 for their reinterpretation of Dune Messiah if they haven't already. I have people at work and friends asking me why the spice matters, what's the point, people thinking it is just a random space cocaine, etc who have no idea how important it is to the guild.
Although I do without hesitation admit to loving the cinematic achievement that this film is, Denis Villeneuve has accomplished something for the ages ... for the purposes of the Dune adaptation talk, not only are The Spacing Guild and the other schools ( the Mentats & Suk School) left out as vital players (by now it's out that the Thufir stuff was filmed but cut from Dune: Part Two) ... I get that the focus on the Bene Gesserit was a logical default focal point. All you're left with then is the Emperor with House Corrino with his Sardaukar, the Great Houses of the Landsraad and the Bene Gesserit v the Fremen united behind Paul Muad'Dib.
... but where is the conversation about the link between the Spice Melange and the Sandworms of Arrakis?
(I suppose since the Water of Life is blue and exposure to Melange turns human eyes blue, it's a hidden in plain sight clue.)
Can we really tell the Dune tale without the Spacing Guild though? And you're right @@JCDenton3, why does the Spice Melange matter So much? What was Herbert saying if it was vital to all space "travel" not just about a scarce resource... but one without which worlds of humans would be stranded?
It's why in Paul's visions billions will starve if the jihad goes forward and he limits or ends Spice production.
Lucas Blade's video of changes was fantastic though ... and seeing those who know and possibly love the source material so engaged in these discussions is a gift!
@@JCDenton3I just rewatched part one and its pretty implicitly stated a few times that it’s the most valuable substance in the universe because it allows guild navigators to plot paths between the stars - I don’t think Denis is the kind of film maker who says it 10 times for the people in the back though either
@jonnowocky8179 I only recall them saying it once when Paul is studying Arrakis before going there. If they say it more than once that is good, but it's very unlike Villenueve to violate the "show don't tell" principle of filmaking. Showing the Guild in some capacity, either indulging in spice, plotting like in the 84 version, or siding with Paul at the end to ensure the supply is safe would have been more powerful than just telling the audience briefly. It doesn't ruin the movie(s) by any means, but it's just an odd thing to not prioritize since like I mentioned none of the new fans I know really understand why spice is worth all this conflict beyond giving you weird visions.
How the hell does a video this good not have more views?? Loved it!
Thanks, I appreciate it. Yeah TH-cam has a lot of competition, but I'm starting to gain subscribers. And in the process my video editing has gotten a lot better.
people are too busy calling part two a masterpiece; its a combo of dune fanbois who r just happy due is in cinema and run of the mill fiml fans who r used to the usual marvel drivel so they think this was amazing; but i think the dialog and the story was poor
@@obscuresoundzprobably because it’s not a good video
@@Yzyenthusiast ouch lol
@@Yzyenthusiastyup
I think the changes are made for two central reasons:
1. To make it clear to audience that the prophecy is pure manipulation and that there is a terrible price for Paul's decision and
2. To make it clear that although Paul's hand was forced he was still motivated by revenge
I think in the book Paul gets off a little too easy since it seems no matter what he did he was screwed. Scenes like him killing the Baron with his own hands and humiliating the emperor made it a lot clearer this is what he really wanted and that he isn't the actual victim here.
Personally I don't think it was so necessary to spell it out that the Fremen were exploited by Paul and the Bene Gesserit but the reality is a lot of people have just had the entire moral of the story go over their heads, so to honour the legacy of the books I think it was for the best that they made it clear in no uncertain terms.
Well said
This. Right here, this comment helped me get over any issues I had with the changes this movie made.
It makes perfect sense.
He did not ( in the books easily ) at all he suffered non stop till COD’s ending , his whole story was nothing but suffering you sure you read the books?
I’d agree that Denis was extra careful to not allow room for the audience to misunderstand Paul’s dubious motivation and decision making. By the reactions after the film in the cinema, everyone had that simultaneous (and weird) feeling of being entertained but also devastated at the same time. Not any easy feat
@@Starkman1992 I think you mis read my comment. What you are claiming to be true is exactly what I take issue with.
hearing u break down of changes from the book re-affirms how good the miniseries was as far as script and dialogue and story telling and the runtime was of the miniseries was 4 hours 10 mins; while the new Dune had a total combined run time of about 5 hours 20 mins , so he had over an hour more yet still told less story.
The show was sooooo boring.
Totally agree, the miniseries was a true adaptation of the book. Also with 20mil budget vs 320 mil they accomplished more, I was completely immersed in the story and understood the motivation of every character completely.. DV version has so many points when it does the exact opposite for me. No character development at all, their motivation vague and the most important parts just left out completely (wierding way, space guild, mentats, fedaykin training, forcing the Emperor and Guild to accept his terms etc).
Personally my greatest disappointment in the film is the portrayal of Paul’s and Chani’s relationship. Since in Dune messiah we see the downfall of Paul, and how he loses both of his visions up to the moment Chani dies and the children are born, how is this defining moment going to be portrayed in the film? Paul is heartbroken when chani dies, we see him taking to himself about how there was no way of saving her despite all his efforts and asks for her to forgive him, how he loses his will to live afterwards. I believe Not showing the first child and its death is a serious storytelling error.
Getting a glimpse of the Golden path seems like a more than good enough reason to get depressed. I don't think Chani in the books is really a core part of the story.
Bro.... spoiler warning for Dune Messiah would have been nice... haven't read Messiah yet
Many fans were upset about the transformation of Paul from a presumed hero to an anti-hero figure "so soon" in the events of the film, but DENIS himself stated that Herbert made DUNE MESSIAH exactly for the fact that readers did not see the threat of a messianic figure in Paul, so he rectified it in the 3rd book. Knowing this, DENIS took that knowledge and tried to rectify it in the film in the fact that PAUL is turning into some sort of anti-hero at the end (the Fremen speech, him killing the Baron, and him forcing the Emperor to kiss his ring) all of these are major changes to logically set him up directly in the 3rd film as a fierce Emperor.
Also, his sister in the womb along with her appearance in his vision tend to give off the vibe of a good sister, someone who understands the grand situation they are fated to live.
I'm not upset about that it makes sense if you're doing a trilogy in which Paul is going to abandon the "golden path" to stop himself from throttling humanity. Even if it is for humanity's survival long term.
Messiah is there to make you realize the consequences of the messiah and the fanatics. I would have understood better if there was no plan for dune messiah
But this wasn’t supposed to be Dune Messiah. It’s still Dune. Idk why the director felt the need to change things so drastically
I agree. I look at prescience as a weapon, power, with Paul being the first to wield it. The jihad was necessary not only to eliminate the possibility of rebelling against his rule but also to cut off any other lines to prescience. Paul felt entitled to this path by his sense for vengeance. The golden path is an answer to this abuse of power by taking the steps to eliminate the weapon of prescience altogether from humanity. We can argue Paul's use was selfish and without greater purpose, while Leto II was ultimately to set humanity free. This does make Paul a ruthless dictator - no different than his Harkonen ancestors and worse than even the Emperor. We need the changes in this movie to setup this contrast of motives.
The point Herbret is making here is despite how good your intentions are blind faith is dangerous. One of the things Paul says in Dune Messiah is: even if he die right now it won't stop fremen killing in his name. He wasn't evil motivated anti-hero, but a man on his knees, who've seen no other choice. In the film however he's some sort of Anakin, joining the dark side because of his own personal drama.
I don't like the exclusion of Spacing Guild as they're the real power brokers of the Imperium and not the Emperor but that's my only disappointment. Paul getting their support through blackmail by holding spice trade hostage was crucial to his success.
Are they not ever referenced in either movie? I guess I never picked up on that if so. I thought in one of the films navigators were mentioned.
@@FatalxBladeWe see some of their representatives when Herald of the Change comes Caladan to pass Arrakis to House Atreides but other than that no as far as I'm aware. Spacing Guild was reduced to the background in this adaptation.
@@DefactoOverlordits only mentioned briefly in part one, that spice is needed for interstellar travel. Imo they shoulve dug deeper into the spacing guild. But that mightve made things too complicated. Idk book adaptions are not easy i guess
@@FatalxBladeIn passing. Not the treatment rightfully owed to the biggest players in the game.
Removing alia was a mistake. She was great in the first book
Literally my favorite character
Well, the book is supposed to take place over numerous years, not months.
i think it was a smart choice. Creepy 2 year old Alia wouldnt go over well with audiences as weird as Talking Womb Baby Alia managed to. odd i know.
[SOME SPOILERS] The fact that the Great Houses refuse Paul's claim to the throne is not only a complete nonsense, but negates the coherence of the universe.
In the book, why does Paul become Emperor ? Because his capability to destroy spice forces the Spacing Guild to side with him, and doing so, leaves no choice for the Great Houses to comply too. We can see a scene where the two navigators present in the entourage of Shaddam IV apply Paul's instructions to withdraw the highliners orbiting Arrakis and take the Great Houses armada back home.
Now, in the movie, the Great Houses refuse to recognize Paul as the new emperor. That means that in this version of the universe, the Guild has not a power strong enough to force the decision on the Noble Houses, and that means that possessing the mean of destroying spice is not enough a threat to give Paul supreme authority. So, in just a few minutes at the end of 5 hours of movie, the story manages to establish that spice is not that important - in fact has no importance at all - nullifying the central place Arrakis should have since the beginning.
Secondly, in the movie, the Fremen jihad is not at all a holy war, that is a war to propagate a religion, but a "classical" war of conquest with blatant political goals. You don't motivate holy warriors by setting blatant political goals. If we take the example of the crusades in medieval Europe, the pope did not intice populations by saying "let's go conquer the Holy land and establish the Crusader States of Outremer, they said - sincerely or not - let's free Jerusalem and the Christ's sepulchre. In the movie, Paul turns full "James Bond bad guy" and doesn't even try to hide the political aspect of the war against the Great Houses.
Dang I should've consulted you before making this video. Yeah I didn't actually consider all the implications from that ending.
I was puzzled by the complete lack of the Guild in the movie. They never even point out that the Houses will not even be able to travel through space on their own without the Guild.
I agree, but what was the motive of the jihad in dune mesiah, if the great hauses acepted Paul as emperror?
@@mmartinu327 There are two motives, one conscious and the other inconscious: in appearence, it's a holy war, that is a religious war to convert the non-believers to Fremen religion. Fremen are described in the book as a wanderer people (the Zensunni) persecuted for millenia and fleeing from plant to planet until they find Arrakis, where they settle. the jihad is some sort of comsic revenge. It's not at all Paul's decision, but Paul was the trigger, his appearence is the sign that "the time has come" for the Fremen and since they have tamed the Guild, they have now the motive, the incentive and the means.
And known only to Paul due to his powers as Kwizatch Haderach, the jihad has deeper, more primal roots: it's the species reaction of mankind to millenia of stagnation due to the archaic feudal system, the casts, the impossibility to freely travel across the stars, and the Bene Gesserit tampering with the natural evolution. Herbert describes the jihad as a deep genetic urge for chaos and free, random mixing of the genes.
@@stefbeg this doesn't make any sense, if Paul is truly an emperror
I feel that they've made the fremen too 'good' in the movies, from my recollection book they have many admirable qualities but are pretty much religous fanatic's and half the tension in the story is Paul and Jessica making sure they don't do or say something that is not in line with their beliefs as they would likely just kill them. So Chani being so against it is kind of world breaking for me.
Yes, it was also jarring for me when they introduced the religious divide. It was like one side was just mocking the others beliefs.
@@FatalxBladeI think having that religious divide with the Fremen makes their culture more realistic. You see this in many real-life religions. In the books, the Fremen are, for the most part, similar with their beliefs. I think the movie benefits from having to fight to convince the non-believers of who Paul is, and shows the problems of blindly following religious leaders. That divide magnifies how problematic religious fanaticism can be.
Agree. And I think the second movie did a really good job of showing Paul’s transformation from heir to a political aristocracy /figurehead to full on Master of the Universe. And clearly making the point that the later was definitely not a good thing!
@@yoshiplaysmc2163it takes away from when the fremen actually start to become susceptible to bribery and start second guessing down the line.
@@yoshiplaysmc2163 I think that's a bad thing. The entire point of the book is that on such a barren planet, under guidance of an external force, people would communally cling to salvation through a religion. I don't think it's more realistic for them to have a modern secular category to them.
In the OG Frank Herbert universe, before Brian added the later books, it was never a "Skynet/Matrix" AI uprising, but a cultural revolution against how machines have turned everyone into unthinking drones.
I like this version better. A revolution against "social media" not a war against "Skynet".
…. It’s always been that hasn’t it? Both in Frank and Brian’s books.
As far as I understand it? Brian just added more details and an actual set of stories behind the butlerian jihad, the thinking machines, the humans who caused the subjugation of all humans at the hands of humans thinking machines. Brian may have added that many humans were endlaved during this time, and that makes sense. Because the thinking machine empire ruled for a very, very long time. Slavery would be inevitable on that kinda timeframe anyways.
But if someone knows better than I, plz correct me. I’ve only read as far as god emperor (gonna be reading the last two this spring) and I’ve done a lot of reading online about the lore/world outside of those four books. And this is just what I’ve gathered from all that.
@antonradke5943 The recurring theme of the Frank Herbert books is mankind overcoming stagnation to allow growth, biologically and socially. Just one small example is that spice is a crutch that limits humanity, so Leto II restricts humanity from any space travel so they will eventually find a way to overcome that over reliance.
Technology is viewed in much the same way, Herbert was a humanist and interested in our potential, not so much about gadgets and shiny toys. Human reliance on technology was seen as a crutch because it softened our skills - how many people today know how to calculate basic numbers, or write a grammatically correct sentence, without computer aid? The Butlerian Jihad in Frank's work was implying machines took something from mankind - our ability to grow and develop and continue evolving as a species.
People with machines oppressed those without, not the machines directly, and that oppression was wrong because they weren't actually smarter or stronger or better, they just had access to the technology to do it. The Jihad erased that distinction and freed humans to pursue their own potential again, to allow people to create and grow without limit. Machines should not think for people, and nor should other people be thinking for people - we should all think for ourselves, but that would be the next step. The first step of what was accomplished with the BJ was later built upon by Leto II, who took the next step for mankind by spreading them throughout the galaxy and terrorizing them to fear centralized authority forever by instituting the golden path.
Basically, just having robots enslave people robs the work of its entire message and recurring metanarrative, it also makes our progress receed back to the first foundational step humans took in this setting by rejecting thinking machines.
@@antonradke5943 You're correct, this guy clearly didn't read the books It's very specific about thinking machines.
Brian Herbert’s cash grab crap novels are not canon.
Frank Herbert loathed Star Wars, and thankfully he never lived to see Brian turn Dune into Star Wars.
@@antonradke5943No it was not like that, and I don’t trust that Brian was honest about those “notes.”
In Dune it was made very clear that The Butlerian Jihad was as much a Jihad against the men who enslaved the Imperium with AI, as it was against the use of Thinking Machines themselves.
Portrayal of Alia was pretty much off, but I didn’t pay too much attention to it because her main arc comes later.
The main turn-off for me was an alteration of Chani, one of my favorite female characters. She’s vital for understanding the original story - which hints that books 2 and 3 will be massively altered too.
And Fremen culture was basically obliterated. The way they disrespected Stilgar was kind of hard to see.
Considering the liberties they took with making changes I expect the 3rd part if it attempts to blend Messiah with children of Dune to be a bit of a cluster fuck. A beautiful cinematic version but I don't think we've seen anything in terms of changes yet compared to what's to come.
I agree Dune Messiah will be a very loose adaptation. Hopefully it will still be an enjoyable film regardless.
Basically the whole second part gets majority of the book continuity wrong besides the major plot points. The one part that was pretty unforgivable was that they changed Paul's motivation for moving toward his visions of the Jihad, which was due to his son's death at the hand of the harkonnen spies. Chani isn't against Paul's motivation in the end due to her own grief, and knows that Irulan is just a pawn.
I will have to be convinced to even think about seeing “Dune Part III” after being totally put off by Part II. Doesn’t anybody realize that Jessica has been pregnant with Alia for 4 years at the end of Part II? Why did they change that timeline so drastically? That’s the longest human pregnancy EVER! I loved the scenery, the worms were absolutely fantastic and stunning.
Your breakdown of Part II was very good and I am glad there is someone out there that questions why . . . Why the hell did they decide to change the storyline so drastically. Chani being pissed off at Paul for most of the movie was a very disappointing plot change. Her unconditional love for Paul was the only thing that kept Paul in the ‘here and now’, and, most importantly, to the one factor that kept Paul human. He could only feel emotions of love, sorrow, and caring while she was alive and with him. This was explained in the Arakeen (sp) scene before the encounter between Shadam and his retinue and Paul and the Fremen.
I’m a Dune Books maximalist.
Timothy Charmless and ZenDiesel were completely miscast as Paul and Chani.
Did they purposely make Feyd Rautha look like Andrew Tate for ‘messaging’ purposes?
The film was a poor representation of the complexity of Dune.
RIP Frank Herbert.
Yes! Well said. And well recalled. Princess Irulan was not an astute Bene Gesserit, she was a middling Bene Gesserit at best-She had more of an independent streak, which is why she eventually flipped sides. Her individuality is what made her maybe my favorite female character in the book.
But foreseeably, in the movie they girl bossed her for the woke cult leaders who run the culture now.
I watched dune 2 at the theater 3 days ago after waiting for it since years. I became very depressed and i still feel empty for no reason. Im thinking now to read the novels cuz i cant wait another 4 years for the part 3
This is what happened with me and it happened with avatar as well. When the story and world building is so good and fantastical, coming back to reality is sad bc it’s bland in comparison. It was a phenomenon documented in the news when avatar came out, I wouldn’t be surprised people have the same reaction with dune 2
The Audiobooks are very well narrated if you want to hear the acting instead of reading.
The way Zendaya plays Chani im not a fan of. She is a great actress but she seems to disagree with Paul so much and spends the second half of the film looking angry eveytime they make eye contact. Why is she even with him? She doesn't even seem to like him
Your opinions and views from the book and movie are one of the best I found in youtube. Good job man.
Thanks!
Just watch both miniseries, you'll get a lot more storytelling than what has been given in these two films.
Great video. The biggest things I missed were the political intrigue between the characters. There was almost none of it in the movie adaptations, and yet it added so much depth to the books. (Also revealing suspicions around the source of the prophecy was overdone in the movie, if it needed to be there at all. Everything else was subtle, but this was hammered again and again and again. I guess it was an attempt at making the conflict more personal and direct.)
Thanks, yeah I think maybe Denis is trying to put the Bene Gesserit more at the fore front of this trilogy.
I think the focus on part 2 was too much on battles and action and too little on characters and the "political drama". But it's typical when making movies for the big crowd.
For those who think that Alia should have been in the movie, can you name which child actor you think could have actually pulled off the role?
Because I was worried that no matter who played Alia, it simply would not do the character justice since she is such a complex character.
No, I'm not familiar with child actors. Your point is valid. I'd still rather them swing for the fences. Or, at least instead of secretly filming just one scene with Anya. Made her a bigger part through visions. When they finally revealed Alia was in it I thought they were going to de-age Anya Taylor-Joy.
CGI Alia 😭
Christian Bale could method act to play the child Alia.
While the DUNE 2 movie was great Cinematography and mostly faithful to the book. As a movie, I found it seriously lacking emotional connection between the characters. The closest were Paul and Stilgar and Gurney. He seemed distant from both his parents and even his lover. Chani also seemed to be 10% in love with Paul and 90% hating his guts. She seemed to always have resting B-face. OVerall, for all the budget and allotment of 2 movies, I felt much more connections to the 1984 Dune even with its deviations from book.
Great video and I’m in the same mind with the adaptations. For me it seems like the more detailed sci-fi elements which made the book so interesting and engrossing have been simplified for the big screen. However I get this had to happen and im still very happy with both of Denis films they definitely live up to the spectacle that is frank herberts dune
I'm not sure the simplification had to happen. I agree though that the film has a vibe and is easy to get immersed in.
@@FatalxBlade i think in terms of audiences and maximising the films profit the producers have to simplify and change the characters motivations as there is only so much story/detail that can be put into a film in comparison to a book. And not every audience is going to be interested / able to understand the deep lore (i.e. the sandtrout) and are buying the film for the rollercoaster of action heavy sci-fi, as is the downfall of Hollywood. I think stilgars character is a great example as mentioned he seems to be more for comedic effect in this film where in the book he is quite the opposite which I think is done for the viewers benefit to break up the seriousness of the film. I would have loved for this film to follow the book directly but I’m not sure on the size of the audience that would have captured specially with warners bros objectives for the film monetarily
Mentats are one of my favorite part of the dune lore. Sad there wasn't any mentats in part 2.
I thought the ppl in the Harkonen base were mentats
Very good explanation! Thank you!
Great video specifically in outlying changes, but I disagree with a lot of your beliefs that the changes were poorly executed. I firmly belive folks have a really difficult time separating multimedia adaptations. Some folks expect things to always be 1:1, and leave no room for artistic vison or interpretation in various media types. As a multi-decades long fan of the entire Dune saga there is no scenario in which someone like myself wouldn't want more on screen when the quality is this high. However, there's unfortunately no scenario where we would have gotten the likely 3x 5 hour long movies to really touch on every thread just for the first book alone. After two viewings and speaking with friends I feel almost all of the changes were largely positive to make a better, more compelling and cleaner story within the medium. I firmly believe this is the best adaptation to date in terms of quality of work and presenting the most important overarching themes of Frank Herbert's work to a wider audience, while still hiding a plethora of easter eggs from the books to pull at my heart strings. Which for me, means I now have so many more friends now to share my love of Frank Herbert's work with.
In the end, I dont belive perfect can exist in any adaptation, but I can easily recognize both Frank and Villeneuve have created masterpieces in their own wheelhouses.
I do want to be clear I did like the movie and am glad we got it. I don't need everything to be 1 to 1. But, I do live by the philosophy that if you're going to change something, make it as good as or better than the original. And I'm sure that was the intention for me though some of the changes did not land. I am biased towards the Alia change yes, because now I only get Alia for one movie.
So, that change aside watching this movie I simply felt very little emotional connection to Paul and Chani. So, when Paul says something like I'll love you as long as I breathe it doesn't really do anything for me because they've been together for at most a matter of months. And most of our scenes of them, they are at conflict with one another. So, Chani riding off on the worm I don't care about. I honestly think I'd prefer he just get with Irulan in the next movie.
The Feyd Rautha arena fight makes less sense in this movie. We see him fight a bunch of drugged Atreides and then are supposed to be impressed he fought one not drugged. The arena audience apparently loves this and Feyd is a hero because of this? We then see Feyd shortly after almost defeat Paul. Which looks bad because we just saw a scene where Feyd could barely defeat one not drugged warrior.
I don't want to go through all my thoughts in this one comment because I will likely just make a review or something instead.
I am glad that you got the feeling of this being a masterpiece. Coming out of Part One I was very hopeful for this movie and watching it did not give me the feelings of a masterpiece. I think it's good, and I think in the next movie some of these open plot threads could make more sense. For me I have to stay honest to how I felt coming out of it both times. I liked it more the second time, but for me the movie has flaws. I'm not trying to take anything away from you by saying that I wish I could love it the way you did. And I still the Denis made a solid film that for me has more style and less substance.
@@FatalxBladeRegarding the movie Feyd Ruatha arena fight - as with a lot of good screenplays, I believe it condensed multiple ideas eloquently. Harkonnens are exemplified to be cruel and violent, Feyd is shown to have a little dimension in having his own code of honour and some intelligence. Also regarding Geidi Prime, the idea for their sun to have a limited spectrum was chosen to show how the houses of dune are shaped by their worlds (shot via infra red). The switch between indoor lighting and IR as they stepped into ‘sunlight’ was pretty incredible too.
@@jonnowocky8179 Fair, I still don't think the scene optimized their time. We already know the Harkonnens are cruel. The scene gave us no new information, in the book version that scene had levels of manipulation going on at once serving a purpose. As far as the color saturation goes I was just poking fun at it and letting people know that it didn't look like that in the books.
Very honest commentary on Dune p2
Totally agree with you
Personally for a 2h40min movie, 4 major plot gears are missing
1.Alia
2. Guild Navigators and Highliners
3. Leto Atreids II, the Elder
4. Thufir Hawat ans Mentats
Additionally, please note that the role of mélange and its connection with worms was totally neglected
My biggest letdown was the removal of the Guild and Mentats. I do think Alia is just being saved for the next movie.Even with the long running time, throwing too much in would result in the same negative reaction 1984's version had, which was, "Its too confusing!". This resulted in a narrator was added to explain things, which I'm glad wasn't added.
When I think about the time necessary to explain Leto II, the Guild and Thufir properly, (like 2-3 5 min scenes each), cuts had to be made.
Here's hoping he can put the Guild and Mentats back in for movie 3.
Guild is only thing that definitely should be there
Yes I agree, so much left out.
As book readers we can at least fill in some of the gaps-For moviegoers who never read the source material, so much must’ve gone right over their heads.
The portrayal of Chani was pretty disturbing to me.
Her portrayal was an odd decision. I think maybe they wanted her to be more independent and free thinking or something. It created way too much unnecessary conflict. Making their love story on screen hard to be emotionally invested in.
@@FatalxBladeI think it was supposed to be a reflection of how the audience should be feeling towards Paul since he is manipulating an entire population of people into thinking he is their messiah. I think this conflict adds depth to what imo, was a very superficial and one dimensional relationship in the first book between Paul and Chani.
@@eido4220agreed I think it would have been harder to demonstrate the idea the the prophecy was completely made up in the movie in comparison to the books just because u have such little time to develop that idea and this conflicting relationship with Chani reveals that to us quickly and easily shows the viewers (who many will not have read the books) the difference between the Kwisatz haderach and the Lisan al gaib
@@FatalxBladeit was already hard to be invested in the love in the book. In the movie you get to see their relationship grow, in the book with the timeskip, i feel like you’re just meant to take it at face value that they’re in love, but their love isn’t really demonstrated well in text
Chani was the worst part of the show. She was a way better character in the books. Paul's about to save her people and unlock the planet but she just wants to make some selfish stance against religion.
Thufir had shot several scenes with Feyd apparently that didn't end up making the cut, same seems to be true for Count Fenring which is sad because I was really looking forward to that.
I think Thufir being cut out entirely sucks but i also think its just meant to be glossed over like "oh everyone during the raid must have died." the person i went to go see Part 2 with thought Gurney was dead after his last scene in Part 1. easier to just wave it all away with that aspect.
i love that G Prime just used all the Gieger stuff from Jodos dune basically. Them all looking the same on a giant place of grey as a sort of Perfect Warrior Race rivaling the sardukar was a cool choice. Stripping all individuality essentially to become the perfect living death machine of sorts as a people.
The biggest issue for me was Paul and Chani's relationship. How committed to each other they were. (As you stated) Paul explaining to Chani about marrying the princess, and Paul stating to the princess basically "i will never touch you and you will never have kids. So do what you want with your lovers but..." Chani was aggravated more by Paul being gone all the time more than him marrying the princess. If memory serves, freman relationships were more similar to viking relationships (you're together because you want to be together not because of a religious/state act).
Which chapter should I read from now to know what happens after part 2?
You should start the book Dune Messiah it starts after the events of Part Two. It will have a large time jump.
@@FatalxBlade thanks a lot bro🔥🔥🔥🔥
I loved the changes. The only one I didn't like was removing the Navigators and their importance from the film. In the book, they are Spice sensitive and can sense that Paul is not bluffing at the end and will destroy spice production, and since the Great Houses cannot move without the Guild, it's they who pull the teeth of the Great Houses and send them home. I love Chani's change. Due to the lack of a time jump, she has only known Paul a few month and it's realistic to show her not totally in Paul's camp, no matter how much she loves him. I liked that Villaneuve updated Fremen society. In the book, the Fremen men and women were both ferocious warriors, but in Fremen society there was no honor in a woman being a warrior. Women didn't gain a great reputation or honor in Fremen society for being a great fighter. If Fremen men were beat by a woman, they were shamed. They weren't told that it would be an honor to be defeated by a woman warrior, it was an insult and a shame. That's how little women were thought of by the men of Fremen society. They were also passed around like tradiing cards if a man wanted them. What she wanted was irrelevant. SO glad to see that omitted. I didn't miss Thufir. We didn't need him to pit uncle against nephew and vice versa in the Harkonnen household. I liked that Villaneuve emphasized the political differences among the Fremen. Made them more realistic instead of a one-think, one-mind, easily fooled Fremen society.
my biggest concerns are the fights scenes, they are ok at best. and how did they get up to the sphere at the end of the movie. AND WITH all that technology and power, couldn't the seventh tell that they were getting surrounded and beat and just leave to orbit and kill them all ???? doesn't add up.
Great segment! Glad to have found your channel! I've duly liked and subscribed!
Thanks, appreciate it
I was surprised by how much they changed from the book, but mostly I was surprised by the weird pacing. I thought the split into two movies would allow for a steadier pace for the second half of the story, but... the first part of the movie trails quite a bit and so the climax is a crazy *sprint* to get to the end. It's a big contrast from the steady pacing and more faithful adaptation of Part 1.
Sadly my interest in Dune stops at the first book, the rest are simply not my bag xD
Believe it or not the Part One movie actually covers two thirds or more of the book. And somehow this movie still feels like a rush in the second half despite having less of the book to adapt.
Yeah you're not the only one who stops after book one or shortly after.
@@FatalxBlade yeah, I feel like DV was more interested in Paul's struggle with his role in everything than with the actual events of the book. If they hadn't introduced all the new concepts and maybe shortened Feyd's introductory arc (the screentime they spent on him and the bene gesserit schemes was too much for his impact on events) they could've fleshed out the ending more. By the time they finished introducing Feyd I was actually thinking they might end the movie before the final battle and move that to part 3 somehow xD
DUNE: ...a psychotic universe reigned by extremely sick psychedelics-addicted psychic psychopaths in bad need of psychiatric psychotherapy...
I've heard Frank Herbert's Dune (the miniseries) is the most accurate but I've also heard they added a lot. Doing a video on how faithful it is and how you like the changes could be interesting.
That's funny, because my Blu-ray of the miniseries showed up yesterday. So, it will happen. May not be my next video but soon.
@@FatalxBlade Awesome! I'll be curious to hear your thoughts.
Chanis change was the worst decision for me, and paints the story into a corner with Dune Messiah.
It nearly spoiled it for me the lack of love and affection and forcing her to save Paul. It made the end scene feel hollow and I was happy she left. It is still a great movie.
Why do you think that it's perfectly OK to ditch things because don't match our society's values? Do you think women used to work as servant for whoever killed their husbands when Herbert wrote those books?
I can understand making changes or ignoring certain non essential parts in order to adapt a book, but doing it because "It doesn't match the values of our society" is ridiculous.
Contrary to what was said by the cast, Herbert wasn't promoting women oppression.
? I don't think that. I'd rather it have remained faithful in the books. I dislike when modern society values creep into movies. Makes what should feel like an alternate universe instead feel like it takes place in 2024. In the video I think all I might've said on it was I get why they did it. Not that I agree with it.
Yeah I just checked all I said was I am not surprised Hera got cut with the practices being outdated. I never gave an opinion on it. You definitely extrapolated what I said making your own assumptions. I get how you got there, but no.
@@FatalxBlade Well, that clarifies your position. It wasn't my intention to misrepresent you and I'm glad that we agree.
That was a great video!
It's all good. I just wanted to clarify a bit because we do actually agree. It's just not something I got into in this video. I gave my opinion on some changes. I guess I didn't delve into the whole adapting to fit into modern society's beliefs.
The spice is vital to space travel. The Spacing Guild and its navigators, who the spice has mutated over four-thousand years, use the orange spice gas, which gives them the ability to fold space.?
No spice No travel , so why did the other houses not recognize Paul as the new emperor? Considering they and or everyone else cannot travel space with the spice..
That is the correct question, but idk the answer.
Maybe they're speeding up the part from Children of Dune when they plan to kidnap Sandworms and make their own spice?
@@unclefranklin4575that was messiah I just read it so it’s fresh In my mind. Also just reading dune kind of ruined this movie for me as there was scenes I was waiting for that never happened
@@pnw_jxsh1334 yeah. I'm really disappointed there's no Thufir for the third damn time. Out of everything that gets cut out, they go for one that's already gotten axed in the last two adaptations
I felt differently about some changes vs others. Some that I think were improvements were the characterization of Chani and the addition of the Fremen fundamentalists, Paul's commitment once choosing to embrace this messianic persona, and the mechanics of Alia's mind already showing signs of being overwhelmed. On the other hand, I think Jessica's more malicious portrayal is less intriguing as characterization despite being good for the plot, additional scenes between Feyd and Lady Fenring were missed, and Paul's willingness to engage in Jihad removed some of the nuance that made Dune so legendarily good as a cautionary tale.
Regardless, I think these adaptations are brilliant. I'm happy to be taken in a slightly different direction throughout this journey as I believe the best adaptations provide you with a unique experience that still succeeds in keeping the feel and themes of the book in tact (Primary example being, of course, LOTR). As a Dune fan, I'm eating good.
I'm glad you enjoyed it, obviously we differ a bit in opinions but we agree on the eating good part.
You have JerryRigEverything vibes, love it. Great work on this.
I'll have to them up, thanks
I hadn’t seen it yet, but I’ve read all the books, so there’s no spoilers for me.
My friends were talking about how Paul killed the Baron.
I was like... WHAT?
Looks like the most faithful adaptation of Dune is still the 2000 TV miniseries.
Yeah some liberties were taken in Part Two. The mini series is definitely the most accurate to the books.
In the book does that camp of Sardaukars under the Emperor's ship exist? or does the entire battle take place in Arraken? cant remenber
The Emperor arrives with a force of Sardaukar.
It does exist
I was hoping for more Alia stuff in the new movie. That was a disappointment. Not to mention the obvious cliff hanger. Most of the theatre audience I assume didn't know the original story as I got a feeling there was a lot of "Oh that it?"
I think Austin Butler would’ve been better as the emperor.
I agree
What the movie producers don't understand is that the readers knew that Paul was in it for revenge and still liked him anyways. The modern trope of "revenge bad" gets obnoxious to me sometimes and it's part of the reason I liked dune so much. Paul gives everyone what they deserve for wronging him. But I also think there might be a different reason that the plot is going this way. And it's possibly because the books after the first dune weren't received so well. So they are going their own path to possibly spin the plot to be more intriguing. I guess we shall see.
Generally i don't like the tone of the movie as much as the tone of the book but there is one change that I did quite like tho.
The ad-on at the end that the Great Houses refuse to recognize Paul's reign which essentially spurs the Great Jihad actually makes sense. I never quite understood that in the book; like why does the Fremen holy war consume the galaxy? What exactly spurred the Fremen on their great conquest once Arakis was liberated. So that change actually made alot of sense to me. Having a motive for the Jihad to actually happen and not just out of pure blood lust.
So let me clarify this. If you were a leader of a big house, and all your armies, all your ships, all your business and traveling uses Spice (Oil), and there is a person who can simply issue a command to destroy all of that, you would go and fight him? I mean he can just stop delivering spice to you and your army and all business would just end. Makes no sense whatsoever.
@@peace_love_unity i think one possible reason for the Houses refusal in the movie, might be that they see this as an opportunity to take control of spice themselves. After Paul completely throws off the power balances in place, it might make other groups think they can do the same. Harness their united efforts to put new structures into place that favor them more. Why leave the control of a resource as precious as spice in the control of someone, who wants to leverage it against others, instead of trying instead to take control of it themseleves? I do think either action (either surrenderring to the forceful hand or biting back) could make sense, though I guess we'll see how it plays out in the next film..
@@aminahm4911 I respect your opinion. But with respect, I think you are trying to find reasons why the bad writing makes sense. In the book everything made 100 % sense and in 5 hours of 2 movies DV could`ve explained everything quite well. Starting a war when one side owns 99 % of all oil is nonsense, especially when they are religious fanatics and fundamentalists. I don`t like as a movie audience when I have to find excuses for the writers why things are happening the way they are. As a die-hard Dune fan I won`t watch the third movie (at least not in cinema) cuz this is not Dune, it`s a fan fiction written by a 3 year old. But again, I respect your opinion :) Take care!
Amazing video, thank you!
You say Lady Jessica played an antagonist’s role, but I didn’t see that in the film. She was driven and perhaps did the wrong thing, but she wasn’t an antagonist or even a villain at all.
I see your point, since ultimately she helped Paul. But, it was through manipulation. At the same time the film is very clearly wanting us to see that the path Paul is on is "bad". And that Chani might be right, which would make Lady Jessica an antagonist of sorts. Plus her interactions with Alia don't "seem" healthy. Watching it made me feel like she was an antagonist. Which in the next film Paul may very well be portrayed the villain right away.
Also it was lady Jessica worried about Paul becoming the messiah as he excepted very early in the book versus the movie he’s fighting and lady Jessica is shoving him into it
How do you expect Chani to follow Paul and have his children and also have the rest of the story play out when they now have to manufacture a conflict between them because feminism strong women. Its going to add more screen time to a pointless romance that could have been wrapped up in this movie.
Exactly. Theirs was a unique love and devotion and this movie played down to nonexistent.
Alia was my favorite character too…bummed she was cut. Chanis character was absolutely butchered.
Can you do a parallel comparison on Lynch, game cinematics, Dune 2000 series , DUNC vs the book, in terms of events as well as design/looks descriptions?
Yeah I can add it to the list. That sounds like 2 video ideas though unless I'm misreading.
Edit: Unless you mean you want one video comparing all those properties to the book, and also go into how accurate the look of each one is to the book.
@@FatalxBlade yeah, just elements.and descriptions. 1 video all adaptations of same moment vs book's same moment or design description
If it's not too much work ofc
@@FirstnameLastname-my7bz sounds interesting I'll add it to the list of videos
Just watched Dune 2 today and I enjoyed the cinematography, the music some of the acting but it left me overall somewhat irritated.
At first I thought I fell to some kind of Mandela-effect, maybe misremembering the books but Alia's absence shook me wide awake.
I was willing to suspend it for the most of the movie but the ending lost it for me. Paul's a better person in the book he makes Cheney feel secure. Paul never made the choice to be that he only played along to hopefully find a way out. His journey was his alone, They really under did that point.
I just read Dune (for the second time). You clearly forgot much about Dune. I would say number 1, change is that the fremen are already terraforming Arrakis, without any help (and need) of Lissan al Gaib
What did I say that contradicts this?
I've just watched the new movie and although I really enjoyed it, I was slightly put off by the changes as you mentioned. I suggest everyone should watch the mini series with Alec Newman as Paul. It was really good and with the extended time they got a lot more from the books into it. Also I'd love to see the other books in film too. If you haven't read them all then you are missing out. The Prequel books are brilliant at filling in the history. Great video, thanks.
I just bought the mini series on Blu Ray. Should be here this week.
@@FatalxBladegonna do a review?
@@chrisfraser5088 I think I will put out a poll for what video I should do next relating to Dune. That will be an option.
@@FatalxBlade sounds like a plan 👍
I like all the changes tbh. Just wish the guild was still in the movie and fremen were connected and shared weird spice visions. Like when paul and chani fell in love with one another it was because they saw each other have a child in the future which is so cool.
They butchered half of the book in favour of 2 hours of a frowning ZenChani, crap adaptation
Thanks for putting this together. My expectations for the movies were sky high. I loved the first Dune even though there were some big changes from the book. Dune part 2 is a beautiful movie, and it has great acting and amazing storytelling. The downside is that if you have read the books, the changes are very distracting and pull you out of the different moments. It is jarring. In particular, Chani and Jessica, but not only those two. These (the aforementioned females) are not minor changes, but really big changes that are continually in your face and repeated thoughout the movie. And it's not just that they are different, in my opinion the changes are much worse and less coherent than the movie. While I can see say that this a great "movie", I cannot say that it is a great or even good adaptation. Which really muddies the water of how much I enjoyed it. A passable adaptation, but still an objectively good movie (as far as the components that makeup a good movie).
Yes, I think you explained that well. I think I need to see part 3 before I can really judge this one entirely. It really depends how and if they answer some of these plot threads. The movie doesn't really have an ending, just a couple of cliffhangers.
In the movie, I hear Paul call Cheney, Johnny,or at least that is what it sounds like to me. anybody else hears it?
Well done sir 👏
Huge mistake was not to include the wierding way.. It was a 1vs1 fighting method developed by Bene Gesserit that was tought to Paul. One could develop God like speed in fights where it seemed to the opponent like a short distance teleport. This was why no Fremen could ever defeat Paul not because he was suddenly the best fighter ever without explanation... And he trained the Fedaykin to use this method to fight Harkonens and disrupt the spice production and eventually after years of training they had an army to beat the Harkonen using the wierding way... In the movie they just said they have nukes. How and why the Fremen were suddenly stronger than the Harkonen an Sardaukar armies combined was not addressed in the movie at all. If it was just numbers, Fremen could`ve won a looong time ago. So disappointing 🤷♂
Great breakdown!
I'm guessing they made the Fremen less aligned in the movie to tone down the white savior feel.
Exactly what I was looking for
Are you sure it was the Fremen that called Alia an abomination? I thought it was just the Bene Gesserit that labeled her an abomination because of her inheriting all the Bene Gesserit ancestral memories before she was born.
I get the distinction you're getting at. That was likely me inserting that word because I know the meaning of it. I think they actually called her a freak. Good correction.
No the fremen were scared of her and if not for Jami’s wife who escaped my mind pleading and telling the people what happened during the water or life drinking they may have never accepted her
I feel the mother and her unborn child are treated more villainous in the film is because I feel that religion itself is the villain of the film. Paul did not want to be a messiah, like all messiah stories, the difference being that he knows to take the role means the death of billions of people in a religious war that is yet to come. The original film from the 80's has Paul become a messiah, ultimate good guy, bring rain to a desert world and everyone lives happily ever after. In the film, the presence of a messiah spells death. People will fight to kill him and die for him. Instead of being a story about "is he or isn't he a messiah" it's more like "he clearly is a messiah, which is going to spell death." Religion is the villain.
I was honestly really dissapointed in part 2. I think part 1 made some intelligent omissions but part 2 really reworked the entire 2nd half of the book in ways that I don't think are great. I feel like the ending didn't really have a great pay off and the omission of alia was pretty jarring. I think most of the story changes weren't for the better but some changes I think I can understand. I think they felt like they couldn't do flash forwards or time skips and still keep the audience, I think most of the plot changes were just to dumb it down for a general audience and I suppose also to keep to a semi reasonable run time but we lost a lot story nuance with those changes.
All of that said, I Watched this in imax and the action scenes and audio were 10/10 so there is that.
Well said
Thanks so much for this video! It's well researched and really interesting. Alia was my favorite character too, so I was very disappointed by Villeneuve's change on her character. I really wanted to see a toddler speaking like an adult.
Denis also left out Paul's first son, Leto II's death by the Sardukar. I suspect Denis will just ignore Leto II from in his upcoming Dune Messiah movie.
I have no idea what Denis is cooking up for this supposed finale. It depends on how much he liked the plot of Dune Messiah. It's possible Chani has Leto II and the twins are never born. If Warner bros. wants to continue the franchise though they probably shouldn't let him stray too far from the ending.
It might be interesting to have Alia & Margot Fenring’s daughter (or son) take the place of the twins? Personally I think Messiah would need significant changes to make for a compelling screenplay (and one that lives up to the previous films, taking into account what wider audiences might want/expect out of it)
Bro, why is this video so subjective? I was hoping you would at least give a short summary of the changes before diving in with your own opinions, but mixing them up like this and stating your opinions as if they are fact makes this video nigh unwatchable.
Fair take, but I do not believe I stated my opinions as fact. I'm fairly positive that I simply provided commentary on my thoughts on the changes. Probably because I had just watched it and had opinions I needed off my chest, so I structured the video this way. I'm sorry it was annoying for you. My opinion does not invalidate your opinion of the film.
@@FatalxBlade Thanks for the polite reply. You have moments when you say "the film does this which is bad because it does this to the story" and I strongly recommend you say "the film does this which in my opinion is bad because I believe it does this to the story" instead. People want your personal input, obviously, but it's annoying as hell when people present their opinions as fact, even when it's easy to tell the difference.
@@collegeoffoliage6776 Hmmm well I assure you this was unintentional. I will rewatch the video with that in mind to see what you mean. In my future scripts I will make sure to present my opinions in a better way. I absolutely don't think my opinions are fact, but I do enjoy sharing them and hearing opposing thoughts. And np I always try to reply politely unless they're just being extremely rude or negative.
Although it's a movie change, I prefer it raining at the end of the original film. It was very powerful.
One of the biggest minuses of part 2 to me was how Harkonnen was made into this stereotypical evil and stupid house. Seems like Villenueve wanted them to be like the Orcs in the Lord of the Rings movies. The way Rabban, and the baron, pointlessly killed their own crew just out of frustration and irritation. seemed really ridiculous and uncessary and made me feel the movie was less believable. Another minus was the second part of the movie which seemed rushed and messy. The way Paul walks into the throne room and kills the baron (who was first injured by a Sardukar??? what?) seemed just odd.
That is a good point the Baron does get his suspensors slashed by a Sardaukar, I forgot about that. And yes I totally agree that the Harkonnens were very much just evil in the movie without much depth.
@@FatalxBlade Weren't they like that in the book too tho? I don't think they were ever given much nuance
@@yum8666 they definitely have more nuance in the books then what is presented in these adaptations. Their house is in a lot of ways is the moral opposite of Atreides, but the characters themselves have more nuance. Particularly the Baron.
I will admit Feyd was intriguing in this adaptation, but in a weird sadistic way. His character appeared to have some layers just not sure we got to see them all onscreen.
My theory for the big changes and shortened timeline in the films is that Paul is recognizing and intentionally choosing a different path from Paul in the books.
He sees many possible paths, at least in fragments. Including the path we know from the novels. Paul in the movie is much more motivated to save Chani from death. His only viable option is to turn Chani away from their relationship early on. Before their love becomes too strong, and they have a child.
He does this by choosing to drink the water of life two years earlier. Pissing off Chani. And changing her path into the anti-Paul character. Where she doesn't follow him into the holy war. And doesn't become his beloved concubine. Therefore she does not die in childbirth, nor battle.
This change helps DV wrap up his trilogy, without leaving the end like it reads in Dune Messiah. Without the Chani pregnancy plot, Chani's character will most likely become the face of the Freman rebellion against Paul, to keep Arrakis dry. And ideal for the worms.
The key to this theory is Jamis. The Jamis visions still occur long after Paul has killed him in their knife fight. Clearly sealed off timelines Paul can still access. Paul calls to Jamis for guidance. And is essentially encouraged to drink the water early.
Because Paul drinks the water two years early, he takes real damage in his fight with Feyd. As his abilities aren't yet fully developed.
And of course, Jessica does not yet give birth to Alia.
It is possible that Chani could be pregnant with Leto. Which, if true, would mean he would likely survive to grow to Alia's age in the next film. This would be a surprising, unexpected twist. And Leto may not be aware his father is Paul. The emperor his mother is rebelling against.
In part 2, Paul says Chani will come to understand. And Leto would be a way back for the two to see one another. Especially if Paul were to explain to Chani that it was the only way to keep them both alive.
Paul has seen many different visions of Chani. One is Chani stabbing Paul. This may also be the path he has chosen. That he would prefer to be stabbed and possibly killed by Chani, than watch her die.
Paul is so defeated at this crossroads, prior to drinking the water of life. It's clear to him there are no easy paths. No safe ways to keep her alive and in love with Paul. And as he said about going south with her... "I will do what must be done." While looking absolutely unconvinced by Chani's promise to never stop loving Paul, as long as he stays who he is.
This Paul has read the books too. And he's chosen a different path. That's what the movies are about.
So to be clear, no twins, no worm god emperor, no Chani death giving birth. DV is going to make the final chapter a powerful and conclusive end for Paul.
I can’t remember, but is Paul fully aware of the golden path after he wakes up from his coma?
Paul's Prescience in Book One is open for interpretation, but based on just reading it. I do not think he has seen everything. I have not reread the rest of the series though which could retroactively make me wrong.
Your theory is a wild ride. If you end up being right you should buy a lottery ticket
@@FatalxBlade oh no! Ahh I edited the spelling and lost your stamp of approval! Appreciate the love though, bro!
So this theory is based on the clues Denis gives us in the films themselves. It's all about this Paul's visions. There is a lot we see, and a lot we can infer based on Paul's words and behavior. It's a deep dive into movie Paul's motivations... juxtaposed with the events of the books.
So what do we see, purely watching the film, with regard to Paul's visions? And how do those visions influence his decisions?
Well we see Paul's visions usually revolve around three things. Chani, the great jihad and Jamis. Initially his visions of Chani are about meeting her and being with her romantically. That is until he is exposed to spice for the first time. Then he sees visions of them together, as depicted in the books. Of them together as Messiah and concubine. And this terrifies Paul. He is terrified of a war in his name. A holy war.
Even after his first spice exposure, Paul understands that some visions are possibilities, and some are certain. "Some things are crystal clear... I know you're pregnant" etc.
Paul has visions about Chani loving him. And visions where Chani stabs him. Eventually we see Paul having a vision of Chani being killed. He is already romantically involved with Chani at this point. And is completely terrified about losing her.
Now, the question is... are these all visions? Or hallucinations? And I believe they are visions. And this is where the films differ from the books... his visions of Jamis prove he can view into timelines that have been sealed off by his current path.
In part one, Paul's visions of Jamis are that of his best friend, teaching him the ways of the Freman. The ways of desert life. I believe these visions are from a timeline where Paul didn't knock Jamis on the ground, when running up the rocks to better position himself while Jessica was taking Stilgar hostage. And because Paul DID knock him down... Jamis is bitter and humiliated. And demands a chance to redeem himself in the ceremonial knife fight. And had Paul somehow slipped around him, Jamis would be his great friend. And teacher.
These visions allow Paul and Jessica to survive in the desert. And find their way to Stilgar and the others initially.
In part two, Paul literally calls to Jamis. Placing his bare hand upon the spice that lay stop the desert sand. "Talk to me, Jamis." And Paul has a vision of Jamis teaching him how to be a good hunter. Telling him he needs to see as far as he can see.
On top of his visions, he hears the voices from the deep. The Bene Gesserit voice. Calling for him to become the Kwisatz Haderach. To drink the water of life.
Obviously Paul is regularly having these powerful visions. Especially when he is exposed to spice. Which Paul is extremely sensitive to. There's so many visions we don't see. But he gives us some pretty good clues as to what they are. THIS Paul, the Paul in the films... He is CLEARLY motivated by wanting to be with Chani. And wanting to save her from her fate.
He can see why she might stab him. He can see why she might be with with him. He can see why she might die in battle. One thing is clear by his behavior... He knows that every path leads to heartbreak. They say life is about the journey, not the destination. And Paul's prescience means no longer enjoying the ride. He sees every choice ending in sorrow and horror.
At the final crossroads, Paul is clearly depressed. He knows he has to take the water of life. And this reminds me of Paul in Dune Messiah. At that point in the books, Paul is absolutely all-seeing. And he allows the Princess Iulan, his wife, to poison Chani with birth control. It makes Chani sad that she cannot get pregnant. But Paul knows that's the only thing saving her from dying in childbirth. So he eventually thanks Irulan, after Chani dies, for giving them more time together.
Chani tries talking to Paul about going south. "The world has made choices for us." But he knows the truth. If he takes the water now, Chani will hate him. And you can notice in this scene, that Chani starts to understand... Paul knows something she doesn't. When she cannot cheer him up with reassurance of her love. When Paul tells her he will do what must be done.
This demonstrates how incredibly effected Paul is by Chani's love. He has seen several paths. All of them lead to losing her. One way or another. The vision we see which follows the book, of Paul as the Messiah, Chani dies in childbirth. In another path, she dies in the fire of war.
In the path he chooses, Chani turns against him. She becomes like the rebel Freman in Dune Messiah and Children of Dune. Who turn away from Paul. And his goal to make Arrakis a green paradise.
He isn't yet fully prescient until he takes the water of life. But the Paul we see in films has more access to visions than Paul from the books. He has seen fragments of that path. And is avoiding it by taking the water two years sooner. Saving Chani's life in the process. At the cost of her love. And their life together.
From that point on, his only path forward is unavoidable. With almost no wiggle room. "There is a narrow way."
Chani will eventually come to understand. Paul did what he did to keep her out of harm's way.
So it's fan fiction basically and should be treated as such. Good to know.
Really disappointed with what they did to Stilgar, he is better than comic relief, also heavily hinted in messiah(possibly CoD but haven't read that yet, that Stilgar follows Paul out of loyalty and honour that he has power and can save fremen but not out of some sense of religious fanaticism. He's often annoyed at Paul drifting away from Fremen beliefs and customs.
Yes, I think Stigar deserved better. His character seemed different than what we got in Part One.
If you rewatch part one - he is exactly the same slightly comedic character in both films, from the moment he walks in to meet Leto to when lady Jessica gets the better of him. Giving him some eccentricity brought some much needed levity to a heavy film - but also aids in believing that he would be the sort of person willing to throw caution to the wind for a symbol or a sign. Great decision making imo
brilliant synopsis ty.
Weirding modules. Kill with a word.... completely left out of the movie as well as this analysis. It's a while I read the book, but I did not remember that Paul got injured so badly in the fight with Feyd. Feyd also had a poisoned blade hidden in his suit, which Paul avoids. When Paul silences the mother, he also refers to her gom jabar and commands her to look into the place where she cannot look. none of that in the movie. I don't believe there was an interaction between Jessica and the mother in the end confrontation as displayed in the movie. It's a good movie, but I think they left out too many of the powerful moments from the book. It would have made it a better movie, but probably a longer one as well. I like that they got rid of most of thinking processes of the different characters. We as viewers can fill in most of these internal conversations, without the need of putting them to the screen.
Weirding modules are only in the 1984 Dune Movie not the book. Yes, Paul was not badly injured in the fight. The movie also left out the poison blade as did the arena scene. The Bene Gesserit seem to be the main "antagonists" in Denis' adaptations. I assume they will be used even more prominently in his Dune Messiah adaptation.
I felt sure that they would end the first movie with the cliffhanger of Paul realizing his Harkonnen ancestry. I was really puzzled by the handling of the timing on that. Also the lack of explanation of Hawat's disappearance is annoying. Where did he go? They should've killed him in the first movie if he wasn't going to be in this one.
I don't believe there would have been no computers; tho I don't remember Herbert writing of such. It's just that after the Butlerian Jihad, there was a law, "You shall not make computers in the image of a human mind." I didn't think it was through evolution that they became human computers, but the "juice that stains the lips and gives the mind speed." Great research otherwise. Also, no OC Bible, or other histories that introduce chapters; but I was glad to see some history by Irulan there at long last. The ornithopters were great, and the shields much better than the blocky ones in the Lynch version. I didn't find his Leit Keynes convincing. No weirding modules? I think it was an awful way to end this movie, to leave people thinking that Paul broke his promises to Chani, and she goes off in disgust. They may have avoided this, because the idea of a concubine wasn't feminist enough; but its still a really awful ending. Another good plot sacrificed for PC. I too liked Ilea quite a lot. Although admittedly not on the Emperor's ship, her line in the Lynch film was unforgettable. It starts (inexplicably, admittedly) to rain on Arakis, and she looks at the Emperor: "And how can these things be? For he IS the Kwizartz Haderach." She should have been born by the time of the confrontation.
I like the idea of what they did with the LOTR much better. With the exception of greatly expanding Liv Tyler's role (which admittedly did make for good viewing), they stayed pretty true to the books. When they departed, it wasn't for senselessly departing from the stories in the books, but to add scenes for the sake film continuity not in the books - but very much in their spirit and with carefully researched detail.
Great video
I coukdn't agree with you more! I really enjoyed both movies, but being A "Dune" lover all my life, I actually read it in 3 languages: French, Portuguese and English... I was disappointed with most of the changes, and the source material being so profound and iconic, I can't agree with most of those changes. And let's not forget the Guild, they have a capital importance in all the plot for it has the Planet-to-planet instant travel monopoly and forsee part of the danger the Atreides Family poses by taking back Arrakis. Pity for those changes (most of them were just done for idiotic reasons and quotas, I believe....). Yes, Alia and Chani are two of my favourite characters in the book. Zendaya was very well chosen for the role, plays it well but, you said it all... doesn't really fit. Changes in personality do not make her stronger either, just less inteligent and more of an "non Fremen" - Daughter-of-Liet . Alia being absent is shame and a loss. The same goes for the Mentats and their role in the Imperium, Paul's trainning and the general plot. Villeneuve could really have done better and deeper in a 5 hour movie. Best regards.
His part was cut in this one.
No, Irulen was Bene Gesserit
Thank you!
It's wild to think about this in such detail. I came out of the theatre feeling sort of empty. I basically just concluded that the first novel should have been three films. Far too much development is crammed into Dune Part 2 (unlike part 1 imo). So much potential was squandered.
If the pacing of the first movie was enough to get a second, im confused why this wasn't just turned intl a trilogy.
Would be nice if WB could have just committed to the full project from the get-go. It would have made sense since they have, y'know, maybe the best sci-fi director of all time. Maybe Villeneuve didnt want to so that though, idk.
Anyway, great video man, thanks for putting this together. One suggestion, I think using hand/arm gestures less often and in a more varied/relevant way would improve your on screen presence. My two cents
Yeah I think a Dune trilogy for the first book would've fixed a lot of issues Denis ran into. I'm still working on my onscreen presence. Some people do find my hand motions odd. Part of it I think is a preference thing.
I do not like the woke addaptation of Dune 2. The first movie I had less problems with, not that many huge changes to the books except the gender swap... Why does everything need to be changed? If you want something different create your own title but leave the original be. Don't rape a master piece.
I fully understand you can't put everything in a movie, but to change important parts of the story... sorry.
The baron murdered by Paul instead of his little sister. She doesn't even gets born...
The Raban not killed by the people of Arrakis.
No child for Paul that gets slaughtered.
Nuclear weapons instead of changed waters to destroy the spice.
Chani being a strong, indipendent and angry, aggressive woman.. Toxic Feminism.
Why? It sucked in my opinion. visuals and all no complains. But changing the story is a dirty filty woke move.
These changes are most often decided by the studio executives -and they really don't care about the quality of art or philosophical motives. They care about making money for their shareholders, hence comes the decision to make the movie accessible to near everyone, and as a result - we get a worse, strongly dilluted version of what could have been a masterpiece.
Your train of thought is flawed when you try to attribute these changes to a nonexistent "woke mob". Nobody wanted this, these changes achieve nothing. People who wish for a better world aren't to blame for shit writing, corporate greed is.
This was almost the perfect adaptation but so much good stuff was left out or changed
tbh i dont really mind the idea of changing Chani's character to add more turmoil, since Chani in the books was just kinda mehh anyway, but i have other gripes.
I think interpretations can and should take creative liberties and deciding to offer an opposing stance to the fremens blind faith, makes some of the story's themes easier to relay, while also making the fremen less unanimous (which u could argue is more realistic). What I am disappointed about is the romance in the film between Paul and Chani. It didnt really do it for me. I didnt care much for their romance in the books either, but I was hoping the films would breathe some life into it. Sadly, the actors' chemistry is not really there, and it went so quickly from flirty to "I will love you till the day i die"-levels of love and overall didnt seem very believable. Definitely could've been written better. All that said, maybe we'll still get some interesting completely new stuff in the third part with Chani...
Yeah I'm with you the chemistry was not there. The religious thing didn't work for me because I thought openly mocking the others beliefs felt too heavy handed and gave the movie a weird tone for me. The books don't really focus on the romance most of it is implied, letting you fill in the gaps. Which works for me. In the movie though the relationship had no emotional weight or believability. So, I agree with you I think you just liked it a bit more.
@@FatalxBladePaul made Chaney feel secure in the books that pointed to the strength of the relationship and the fact that he would not be with princess Erolon really drove that point home at the end of the book. This actually butchered the characters and the points that Herbert made in that book. Complete and utter mishandling of the story in my opinion.
Finally! Thanks. I was a bit disappointed with the film because they changed a lot of events from the book.
No problem, I'm right there with you
The combination of your hand movements and slight bobbing makes it look like you're floating
I have suspensors like the Baron
There’s a limit to what you can show in 3 hours, especially if you haven’t been given the all clear to make a sequel. DV had to fit a round peg into a square hole.
Thank you 🙏
This the best adaptation I can see why they took stuff out. But come on really who you found to adapt 2 year old talking like a adult weird with cgi and spice orgy l. the spice guild. Don’t forget run time I read the book and this is the best we’re to get. It is great. Like come on be reasonable
I like the movie, and when adapting for a general audience I get it. But, I don't think anything in the book is too weird for this film. The Harkonens are plenty weird in this film. Jessica creepily talking to her unborn fetus is weird. A 2 year old Alia would've fit in just fine. Plus they could've given her rapid aging and made her 10.
All that aside, and not even thinking about the book. I do not think pitting our 3 main characters against one another is a good choice. It made the mother son dynamic developed in the first movie fall away. It made the love story between Chain and Paul feel more like a highschool relationship. The arena drugged plot point doesn't make much sense anymore. These movies together have over 5 hours of runtime. There was enough time to adapt differently. Not doing so was a choice.
So, I disagree with this being the best adaptation possible. I did like it though I mean I saw it twice last weekend and will likely go again this weekend.
As a non-book reader, I was surprised that this film wasn't as clever as I thought
After reading many comments in this video, it seems the film changed a lot eventually make it less smart
Also disappointed the guild naviagtor didn't show up after the hype of seeing their interpretations from artists out there
Yes I believe the film was over simplified.
It was like 6th grader read the book and told the story to another 6th grader who a year later wrote the script for Dune 2.
I am too lazy to watch this video so tell me about Paul's first son, Leto II the Elder who was the first child and the brother of Leto II. I heard he appeared in the first Dune book
He was born during the time jump in the book and died during a Harkonnen attack. He was killed and Alia allowed herself to be abducted.