So that first Image of the DLC may actually be Queen Merika on Torrent. I thought it was Miquella. But the detail of your video made me realize that it could be when Merika first arrived. There are no buildings surrounding the Tree. The braids on her hair match the character riding Torrent. Adding more value to your crucible theory. Which is interesting.
Now it makes sense, when mohg says you have to abide awhile to miquilla. He indeed was with him in land of shadows, when we reach his palace, he spawns, telling miquilla the said lines and fights us.
@@bartsimpson8002 According the Director Miyazaki, it was actually Miquella. He says as much in the IGN interview. I was thinking it may be Marika too, but this makes sense I think.
Mohg was unable to make contact with Miquella as the game stated a couple times already likely because Miquella had already realized his plan was going to fail so he abandoned his body to enter the realm of shadow in order to accomplish his goal so Mohg had basically a corpse. Now that Mohg is gone its being used to to facilitate travel to the shadow lands for the Tarnished who got rid of someone basically everyone in the lands between saw as a pest. Mohg was trying to force himself into becoming a lord while Miquella wants someone actually worthy of the title. You have to remember basically everyone thought Mohg was unimportant so it was shocking to find out he Kidnapped Miquella and i doubt Miquella someone who was trying to push away the influence of the outergods would willingly be bound by ones influence
The fact that the Crucible is said to be the " primordial form *of the Erdtree* " implies that the Crucible and the Erdtree are one and the same, with the former becoming the latter. Some orange can still be seen in Erdtree incantations too, such as when using Golden Vow. While this orange isn't diffused entirely through the sigil and light, it's still present, and it can also be seen when using Rune Arcs or watching Radagon fight. Additionally, regarding the Crimson Amber Talisman, that is not the only amber talisman said to have "primordial life energy." The same wording is used when describing the Cerulean and Viridian Amber Medallions, and thus the primordial life energy isn't exclusive to red amber.
I have been thinking this for weeks and have wondered why no one was talking about this. I would take it a step further and say that not only is that the Crucible but that Marika used Messmer to burn the Crucible as a way of ending the old age and starting her new one.
I read in some ER lore that the crucible was once housed within/beneath a Great Tree that came before the Erdtree and the Golden Order. There are so many references to the crucible in the trailer. I think this is a really viable theory. The DLC will almost definitely tell us what Marika did to make the crucible and its cultures disappear from the Lands Between, such as exiling an entire part of the world to another realm?
I think Marika was trying to protect the crucible. I know it sounds hard to believe from all the community has construed of her behaviours. But I believe she has been playing a long game against the greater will and radagon and the golden order for a very long time. It’s why the Numen and seemingly the Nox support her even if they don’t worship her or the greater will. She is basically a sleeper agent. This is why she divested us of our grace and sent us away. This is why she wants us to grow stronger in the face of death and to return, brandishing the Elden ring to become Elden lord cyclically. This is why she removed death (among other reasons) so that the lands between would weaken and whither. So that faith in the erdtree and the greater will and it’s prevalence could meander and dissipate. I propose Marika is our fucking hero, but she can’t do this all herself. She needs us. She always knew she would. Radagon opposes her st every turn with his unyielding leal disposition in association with the golden order and the greater will. This is why she kept the crucible hidden in shadow. To protect it and it’s culture. This is why she sends her most powerful warrior and protector Godfrey and all of his brethren tarnished away to return again stronger later when she needs them to overthrow a weakened greater will. This is why she tasks master Hewg with crafting us a weapon to kill a god. This is why he prays to her lovingly and obediently does this service for us in her honour and speaks of the terror of her. Not how terrifying she is, but how terrified she was. This is why she tasks her demigod children with achieving whatever their aspirations are. But should they fail in their endeavours, she’s warning them that under the greater will, they will amount to nothing but sacrifices for this farce of a greater will. It was a rallying cry, not a bad mother move. This is why she hid Messmer there, her child born from Radagon against her will during the reign of Godfrey as Elden lord. She continues to oppose Radagon and his machinations at every turn. Additionally if you read her quote to him within her bed chambers with the right tone, you can see clearly she was leveraging her power as a god over him. This one thing she could do that he didn’t believe she would ever. She did do when she shattered the Elden ring. I believe messmer’s flame is the crucible’s flame. That in the lands between his flame was divided and distinguished. Destined death flame, black flame, blood flame, giants flame and the flame of frenzy all together make Messmer’s blasphemous flame. He was born with those snakes embedded in him. This is why Marika had to flee with him and hide him into the shadow realm. The same realm that she hid the crucible in and many other things that opposed the erdtree and the greater will, in order to preserve them.
item descriptions hold a vast majority of the available lore, read the descriptions of armor sets, spells, incantations, and talismans; those seem to have ALOT of lore@@guuchbumpz
I think the DLC will expose the crimes she committed among her own people since the imperiums only come from the realm of shadows and she has been trying to cover up everything she did from the people of the lands between because they worship her as a goddess I think queen Merika is actually evil and Messmer is the good guy which is why everything he represents is despised by the golden order she built in the lands between
So - if you're going to look at Messmer, can I suggest a path to follow. His name is definitely inspired by Franz Mesmer (from whose name we get the word "Mesmerise" and "mesmerism"). To quote wikipedia: "He theorized the existence of a process of natural energy transference occurring between all animate and inanimate objects; this he called "animal magnetism", later referred to as mesmerism" I think the links to the animalistic nature of the crucible is there, I just haven't been able to parse it out yet.
This would somewhat explain why it's call "The Lands Between" to begin with. It is the land inhabiting the time and space between the old age (Crucible) and the new age (whatever you choose as the ending)
I hope you see this but, let me go with sone madman rambling: -The land of Shadows is where Marika arrived on the LB -The Erdtree is a parasyte(maybe Marika's Two Fingers) -Ingame we see it as a golden, beautiful bright tree but that's all façade, the real erdtree is the one we see in the DLC, choking the Crucible -The building receiving the sap may be a representation of the Golden Order/Márika taking the ancient energy to provide the grace Basically, the real form of the tree is hidden with the rest of the Shadow Lands, and Marika just threw a big lie, which at the end, made her feel guilty and start the shattering. Hope it makes sense Extra: I'd say that deathblight it's either a form of the crucible to push against said parasyte OR the real form of the Golden Order, a parasytic form of life that expands everywhere(like Farum Azula) and chokes life itself(like the twisted tree)
my prediction is that the final boss of the dlc will be miquella. The resemblance in narrative and visual design to Griffith is quite notable. Maybe he has traveled to the land of shadow to achieve godhood at any cost, and maybe he will have some insane transformation to do so, such as griffith turning into fempto. I also see that due to the land of shadow being in an eclipsed like state, but obv this speculation is determinant on Miyazakis willingness to implement berserk plot points into his games lol
Something that has occupied my mind is the horned lion depictions, since the crucible realtes to Godfrey's age the golden lions with the horns remind me an awful lot about Serosh. A golden lion spirit perches upon Godfrey, which it implies he supported the age of crucible along with having omen twins It just has me thinking what this could imply about Godfrey despite the DLC being mostly about Marika and Miquella
Seems like a solid theory. It won't be a trip back in time, instead a trip to whats left of the land ruled by the Crucible) and currently hidden by the Lands Between. Kind of makes you think there's one more place, on the other side (if it's the Lands between, and the crucible is on one side, what's on the other).
I like thinking of the shadow lands as hell with the Lands Between above it. Perhaps the divine plane (if there is one) is above the stars we see in the Lands Between or maybe the divine plane is space itself. Which might make sense when you consider the stars "cradle fate" and the elden beast itself came down here on a golden star.
Honestly, I think Mesmer is the Gatekeeper of the Underworld or The Land of Shadow.. Just think about it, she knew her mother Queen Marika ascended to Godhood and the Golden Order knew it wouldn't last forever. On the land of Shadow,. it's just a prison that gatekeeps the Lands Between from it's Secret. I honestly feels like Mesmer is the Eldest & Firstborn of all the Demi-Gods and was task to guard the secrets of the Erdtree. That's why he's equipped with all of the kind of Blasphemous magic just to protect Marika and her secrets. He guards all the enemy inside the land of Shadow acting like how Hades guards the underworld himself while the Gods of Olympus are enjoying their life. That's why Mesmer seems surprised to see a Tarnished being blessed by Marika without the Grace of Gold. Overall, I still think Mesmer was always been part of the Golden Order. He's always been the Gatekeeper from the very beginning.
Messmer's situation could be explained simply with one element; Timeline. We do not know how long Messmer has been sitting in the Land Of Shadow, or how long he'd been doing his...cleanup. The simplest explanation for his apparent hypocrisy and heresy is that he comes from a time when such things weren't heresies at all. Between the fall of the Dragonlord from grace and the rise of Marika's Order under the leadership of Godfrey, there seems to have been a middle period of sorts, where things the Golden Order currently scorns were not only accepted, but pivotal players within Marika's plans. The Crucible Knights exemplify this; once honored subordinates of Godfrey, feared and scorned but nonetheless tentatively allowed to exist, if only because they never seem to speak or show their faces. Apply the same to Messmer. If the unsung battle was Marika fighting for godhood, then Messmer would quite literally be Marika's oldest living child. His work would've been pivotal to her ascension; he was literally there from the beginning. And before you say it, yes, I do know this also likely places Radagon very early in the timeline, and quite frankly, I don't see what the problem is with that. The Red Wolves' sword spell has the same color as the Crucible spells; clearly, he's been around for a while, but that's another topic. The snake is considered, according to the Grave Duelist Helm, a "traitor to the Erdtree"; treachery implies previous allegiance. Considering Messmer's lack of existence in public record, this story is likely all that was left; a sort of metaphorical children's tale explaining why Marika hated snakes so much.... But that's just the thing. Messmer himself clearly doesn't seem to think he betrayed anyone, or rather, that he betrayed Marika. He still seems to think he's enforcing her will, and that might just be the problem; Marika's will and what Messmer thinks Marika's will is might be two very different things. After all, he's clearly confused by you, the Tarnished, being her current Lord; he did not have enough input on Marika's grander schemes, and acted out what he thought she wanted.
Really like this theory. I imagine that, maybe, Marika ignored the warnings from the Ancient Dragons about serpents being immensely evil because the only serpents she had seen at that point were the two winged serpents that were a part of Messmer, but once she found out about the Abyssal Serpent inside him and the God Devouring Serpent in Mount Gelmir, she could no longer abide by the belief that the serpents were not evil, and eventually took heed of the Ancient Drragons' warnings, which could have led to Messmer's banishment to the Land of Shadows.
Doesn’t sound like messmers working for Marika or the golden order. Rather seems like a “sinners get punished by satan” type of theme. If they’re stripped of the grace of gold, they’re left to burn in this blasphemous figures flames, like the unsaved burn in satans fire. Satan doesn’t work for god, he just inflicts torture on those abandoned by gods grace type beat
My theory is that Marika created the shadow lands when she separated the Erdtree from the crucible to create her golden order. The shadow lands is where all the undesireable elements of the crucible were banished. I also believe that this area once existed in the center of the lands between and is none other than Eochaid, the "lesser, long-vanished domain." As for Messmer, I believe he was once a dual-aspected being, much like Marika herself. Specifically, the gloam-eyed queen. Marika has Radagon as her other self, and Melina has Messmer. You've no doubt noticed both Messmer and Melina are missing their left eye. When Maliketh defeated the gloam-eyed queen, he tore out her left eye (this is the eye given to the player that detects deathroot.) Upon her defeat, the gloam-eyed queen was burned and left bodiless and her dual-aspected soul divided, much like Marika divided the Erdtree from the crucible. The undesireable part was banished to the shadowlands; Messmer, and the one that remained was Melina the kindling maiden. Miquella had to divest himself of physical form to reach the shadow lands and I believe Messmer is trapped there because he lacks one and exists as a soul, much like Melina. Godwyn's corpse is currently soulless, but its deathroot has infected the roots of the Erdtree. I believe this is related to what we see happening to the shadow lands' Erdtree. If Messmer is trapped in the shadow lands because he lacks a physical form, it would be quite the problem if he chose Godwyn's soulless corpse as a vessel to escape and resume his former position as lord of destined death sans Melina.
I don't think Gurranq is giving out literal eyes to search for Deathroot. Based on D's dialogue about hunting for Deathroot, he likely has one of those eyes as well. Also, if the Vulgar Militia found near some Deathroot are working for Gurranq as well (based on the Vulgar Militia guarding the Bestial Sanctum), then those individuals likely have some of those eyes to boot.
@@shallotliltian7617 D is still hunting down Deathroot when the Tarnished arrives in the Lands Between, so D probably still has the eye that Gurranq gave to him.
@@nightscout9979 Well D would be hunting those who live in death regardless of Gurranq. He'a a golden order fundamentalist. I think it's likely that he informed Gurranq that he'd no longer be able serve as his dedicated deathroot bringer and returned the eye with the promise he'd search for a replacement. I think the "other business" that required his full attention was Fia's arrival at the roundtable hold and his desire to keep an eye on her and possibly kill her when she left the safety of the hold. The beast eye doesn't seem like it's some sort of mass-produced tool. And with the game stating that Maliketh defeated the gloam-eyed queen, the eye having claw marks on it, Melina having marks that line up with those claw marks beside her missing eye, and Melina's eye being restored in the frenzied flame ending with the same color as the beast eye (which could have been discarded like our tarnished discards Torrent's ring) hinting at a connection to the gloam-eyed queen. I think the evidence is, frankly, overwhelming by Fromsoft's standards. I think this is clearly the conclusion they want the players to draw from these details.
I’ve been listening to a few different videos of yours while I work and I’ve gotta say they keep me entertained and thinking about the environments these games build so well. Thank you for the good listen 👍🏽
A point of note you may not actually know due to its dubious credibility is that the reason there is a dragon incantation in the shape of a rune bear may actually be because rune bears are going through the process of turning into a magma wyrm (this isn’t really baseless theory but it is up to personal interpretation) you can see their eyes changing and the bears are growing scales on their exposed skin and even early on outside the bound of the network test there is a rune bear out of bounds that drops a dragon heart when killed, giving some more basis to the idea. So rather than being connected to the crucible specifically i believe this bear will be an open world boss we find that is simply a rune bear further along into their metamorphosis into a dragon/magma wyrm
I saw some people discussing on tiktok how the feet on the lion dancer boss look like morgotts suggesting its several omen inside the lion, which adds to the already abundant crucible symbology in the lion dancer. It makes it all the more interesting that it seems like omens in this age (if they are omens) are respected enough to weild lightning magic and seemingly wear traditional garbs or even have traditions to begin with (lion dance.)
Incantation originating from a sinister prophecy. Momentarily sparks flame from the caster's hand. This incantation can be cast without delay after performing another action. The flame of ruin is anathema to the Erdtree. But prophets sometimes glimpse it within the faith all the same. Sadly when this occurs their sole reward is banishment.
This is why i'm sure Messmer was banished, after say, burning a giant tree? It's the only way a key character just vanishes from history that i can see.
One aspect that I find strange is that none stops to wander if Messmer is the one that atually stabbed Marika with the red spear. We have Eva, stabbed by the serpent after she commits a sin, seems pretty strong simbolism right there. The serpent is the double headed serpent of Esculapio's rod, simbol of medicine, but can also be interpreted as dna, or lineage. And Messner stabbing her in the womb puts an end to her lineage. The question is, for what sin ?
8:13 placidusax was in fact elden lord before of the age of Erdtree. My speculation here is that the god that fled was none ether than Glowmite Queen. Remember that when we fought Maliketh in Ferum Azula, when Maliketh activates the rune of death his title changers to Maliketh SLAYES OF DEMIGODS, this title says the story for me because Maliketh WOULDN'T slain the DEMIGODS OF MARIKA'S children. And we know that Glowmite Queen and God skins are related somehow, so my speculation here is that God skins is Glowmite Queen's lineage of DEMIGODS and that DEMIGODS WERE SLAINED BY MALIKETH
I was thinking about this for a while but... Couldn't the Gloam Eyed Queen be Marika's mother? all the Empyreans we have seen so far are in one way or another descendants of Marika and the statement that Miquella and Malenia were born Empyreans because they were born from a single god makes it clear to me that lineage is the defining factor of an Empyrean, obviously the logic here is that Marika and Radagon are the same person and that's why their children have full divine blood and that's why they were necessarily born as empyreans, I don't think you need to have full divine blood to be an empyrean as demonstrated by Ranni but I I mean that having this complete divine blood will necessarily make you an empyrean. And with that I come to the conclusion that Marika has to be a descendant of a god, obviously this entire divine lineage has to have started with a first person who became a god but the various mentions of ages and gods before Marika make it clear that person was not Marika, Elden ring has this recurring theme of younger generations revolting against older generations like the empyreans going against the golden order and the trolls betraying the fire giants, I think Marika did the same thing and that's why she desperately tries to hide her past
@@davisiotta489 I don't know the relation between Marika and Gloam eyed Queen. All we know from the game is that there was a conflict between them. Gloam eyed Queen was the former Godess before Marika, if that is true that means she was an EMPYREAN in her age and she have an Elden lord. Because of the Godskins have access to Farum Azula, we can conclude that there has to be a relation among the citizens of Farum Azula and Gloam eyed queen. We see that in Farum Azula men lived among with beasts, an item drop from beast men, in its description we read "There was a time before the age of the Erdtree, that beasts were bestowed with intelligence as a gift" and when we fight Placidusax we read that he was the elden lord before the age of the Erdtree and he waits patiently for his God to come back.
@@dirmusloner7963 the connection between Marika and Gloam eyed Queen for me is the connection they both have with Farum azula, isn't it strange how Maliketh is Marika's shadow and has so many connections with Farum azula? he is strangely similar to the beastmen of Farum Azula and has knowledge of the enchantments of his beast clergymen, he himself claims to be a clergymen in his guise as Gurranq and knows some way of getting to Farum Azula, Malekith's arena has this statue of a little girl underneath the image of an Elden ring and after reflecting for a while, I believe that this statue could be representing Marika due to the fact that the little girl is being surrounded by three wolves which immediately reminded me of the spirit of the three wolves that we received right at the beginning of the game and Ranni says that this is from Torrent's previous master, this master is most likely Miquella and this makes me think that Marika may have given the spirits of her former wolves to Miquella, the fact that Malekith chose this location with this statue to stand among all the other places in Farum azula makes me believe that this statue has some meaning to Malekith
@@davisiotta489 that statue is Not Marika. The only relation that Marika has to Farum Azula is when she sends her first husband Godfrey or Hoarah Loux or lord if crucible knights to fight against Gloam eyed queen, Placidusax and the beast men. The statue surrounded by 3 wolves IS NOT Marika neither miquella
@@davisiotta489 Ranni a student of an occult witch in secret. You know that Gloam eyed queen one of her sorceries either than death incantations is COLD INCANTATIONS?
Finally. This was my first thought after seeing all of the animals in the trailer. The way I always saw it, the Crucible of Life as the tree from the bible. Considering the religious tone of the game, it made sense to me that the game was going in that direction somewhat.
im kind of under the impression that messmer is sort of like an oath of vengeance paladin in bg3 (i have no experience in actual D&D) but hes willing to use whatever powers necessary to protect the erdtree and maybe golden order. maybe hes willing to use every single weapon at his disposal even including things that others consider heretical or blasphemous in order to keep the age of the erdtree ongoing, obviously this is speculation and wouldnt make alot of sense considering he is locked away in another land and cant really do too much to "protect" the erdtree. also miquella is the bad guy, i hate to say its literally berserk but he is literally going to be like griffith, a hawk of light assumed to be saving everyone but really hes a demonic god. even the first lines of the dlc trailer imply that miquellas intentions are not actually good and he has simply brainwashed others to go through with his plan, just like griffith in berserk.
Considering all the Judeo-Christian iconography and ideas in the base game of Elden Ring, it makes sense for there to be an Adversary of the Golden Order, a figure that exemplifies serpents, dragons, profane flames, and Hell. I wonder if Messmer’s role is to be the one who takes care of all of Marika’s unwanted Tarnished, those who “fall short of the grace of gold.” Look at all the Tarnished in the opening trailer-they’re all dead. Each one died, and then was brought back and transported to the lands between for this strange game of thrones. I wonder if Messmer is the one who killed all of those who lost the grace of gold in Marika’s time as god.
Really glad I was recommended this video, amazing, amazing job, and really underrated as you said, I was also waiting for everyone to talk about the Cruciable as its such an important part, like you so through explained, this will open and might touch so many questions. Great job, and many thanks for the video, its a very elaborate and well made theses, and i found myself really elated to find it. I kept going, thats right, thats right, thank you, thats right !!!
Land os Shadows seems to be like a prision island of sorts. Where those of the old belifs are keep in prision and hunted be Mesmer. He is the jailor - warden - and executner. Also the main prisioner. His crimes, even been a demigod, seems to be so serious, that he is exiled there. In the lands of gold, the knowledge of him are erased because he is a stain in the Marika eyes. But in this land are the secrets of the past, and Miquella are looking for that.
Can’t wait to hear you takes on everything from now and beyond release! Can’t believe it’s already been 2 years since I first stumbled upon your channel
Also, the title can be interpreted as the crucible being overshadowed by the erdtree, and not just destroyed like a lot of people thought it was. The way it looks could also be because of the golden orders attempt at destroying it. Another interesting thing I noticed was on the map there are golden rays of light the look very similar to the dark vails we see in the trailer
What if Messmer himself was installed by Marika to make sure the "Shadow Lands" remain hidden? He protects the Veil so his mother can do her sh*t in the Lands Between. Also: LOVED YOUR VIDEO/THEORY! By far the best theory for the DLC.
Ive been thinking the exact same thing and its been frustrating that noone in the lore communityn seems to think its a big deal. Im glad im not alone. I am so hyped to learn about the previous vessel for the Elden ring and her consort, its a part of the lore wich feels very delibratly hidden while still very important. I was also thinking that maybe the two in painting was the Vessel and Elden lord, the woman is holding her stomach possibly beacuse thats where one carries the elden ring.
It's possible that the two in the painting are the same as the man and woman depicted in statuettes in Farum Azula, which would definitely tie into them being important figures from the past if true.
That tree in looks like a loose version of a yew tree which if I remember correctly in literature represents life and death. The urd tree reminds me more of a white oak or something similar.
I do strongly agree that the "shadow tree" either is The crucible, or is strongly associated with it. I first heard from Quelaag that the golden sap seen in the trailer is pouring into a literal crucible, so more power to the theory. I do disagree with the Mohg interpretation, tho. I see that his main concept is failure and delusional obsession, that he will never actually achieve his dynasty, nor acceptance from Miquella. It was stated in the released text that Miquella divested himself of his flesh. My question lies in exactly how deliberate this was, if that was always the plan, or if it was simply a last-ditch resort to confront Mohg's intervention.
The War being referred to is between the Giants and Erdtree faithful. The giants have been impaled by what looks to be tree structures in similar shape to Messmer's weapon and they watch over a crucible. The golem thingy on fire when the quote about the war pays is full of fire giant corpses.
Pretty good video! I just had a insight with your colors theory: the reddish hue of the crucible enchantments may be due to the presence of the rune of death in the Elden ring. Since marika disconnected the death rune from the ring, the enchantments of the golden order became purely yellowish, or golden.
I thought of a theory that red could be representing blood, since blood is the essence of life within living beings, a representation of natural life, but the golden order rejects the natural and red is set aside
I love this theory and think there are many connections that suggest it may be true. I don't think the voice at the end of the trailer talking about being burned by Mesmer's flame is Mesmer actually speaking though. The voice sounds different to when we see Mesmer speak to the player character presumably before his boss fight.
Good stuff. My only disagreement would be that i don't think the crucible is even a tree yet, it appears to refer more to a sort of arboreal crucible that the erdtree supplanted through grafting, but grafted plants tend to live limited lives and i think that's how the erdtree died to begin with. This is why Omens started to appear, as a warning that the erdtree is losing control and also why life in the shadow lands appear out of whack; it's out of control, the only tree that could control it is in terrible shape! But your take on the sap being likely the source of Marika's power is my own as well, i just think that to get the sap, you need to graft a tree onto the roots which appear connected to the crucible, a stump of sorts? (One only needs to look at a crucible knight helmet) My go to theory is that the old man in the trailer DLC is the botanist character all over Leyndell and Limgrave castle who does the grafting and Marika exploited him somehow.
I love this video. Thank you. It would make sense that Miquella would be searching for the missing ingredient to his Haligtree. His mother succeeded with the Erdtree, after all. I think this may be to reinstate the purest cycle of life, where destined death is returned, no one is shunned simply for being what they are, and souls are able to return to their primordial self once their life has come to its end. Hence all the talk of everything wanting to converge once again.
The godskins should play a part in the dlc, no? Considering marika was the gloam eyed queen in the land of shadow prior to ascending to godhood, you would think they would play a huge role somehow
Fellow Marika is the GEQ truther, howdy. Why DOES Melina have the same clothes as Millicent anyway? - If she's a cloned bud of her mother like Millicent is of Malenia - and lost some memories but retains a purpose and identity - and her mother is Marika (confirmed by game file names) - and she gains a Gloam colored eye in the frenzy ending after you force her to retain her purpose rather than choose her own destiny and self immolate - why does Gurranq/Maliketh act like Blaidd when he's baleful and taken over to force Ranni to abide by the greater will. - why does Marika hate her shadow and only use him as a vessel to seal destined death - cont, why would Marika set him up to be killed and have it stolen later? It's almost like she wants destined death out in the world again and unbound. What does that all mean? Doesn't that all suggest that Marika was the Gloam Eyed Queen to you? It does to me.
Theory I had a long time ago. Misbegotten, omens, dragons. They're all related. The prior age of dragons had living things beginning to evolve, wings, arms, legs, like the beast men and worm dudes living in Faram Azula. The pinnacle of all living things were the Omens which were living things that represented a unity between dragon beings and humans. Humanity was meant to evolve into something else but Marika didn't like this idea of things being mixed up. So she created the lands between, which separated all special characteristics of life into specific categories. She relabeled everything that looked fused or unseperated such as the misbegotten and omen as monsters to be killed, conquered, or hidden from the new perfect world she was trying to build. I think a great example of this theory outside of the obvious (like Morgott) is Rykard. He fuses himself with a snake, and Marika and the Golden Order label him as blasphemous. Same with Godrick the Grafted and the process of Grafting. Mixing and fusing between different races if creatures were supposed to be a natural event made unnatural by Marika. Why she wanted to do this? Haven't figured that part out. But it's just an idea I had a long time ago because I was a huge omen fan and I felt there was something significant with Morgott being the first boss we fight and a pinnacle when we get to Leyendell, and Mohg being the one guarding the underground and the opener for the DLC. Again just a theory and if it's wrong it's wrong.
I definitely looks like two trees, one wrapping around the other, two different kinds of trees. I'd guess either; showing the past how the erdtree took over, or the hidden present that the old tree is regrowing and slowly killing the erdtree
I’ve said that in every damn video n people just ignore me. It’s a skull the mout is the u shaped object collecting the sap.. the light is his eyes and the tree makes up the face. Almost as if the tree watching over them in a sense
I may have zoned out and missed you mentioning this fact, but the gold of the rune-like essence holding Marika and Radagon together in that cutscene looks strikingly similar to this sap spilling from the shadow tree! On top of that, I think the glow around Miquella in the clip from the very end of the trailer also seems quite similar to that same redgold hue of crucible incantations? I think those really drive forth the theory that Marika may have absorbed some of the crucible in her ascent to godhood and Miquella is possibly going to do the same as he follows in her footsteps in the Shadow Realm. Though I assume Godwyn's form is the effect of stagnation and destined death, it's interesting to not that the interaction between the Red of Destined Death and Godwyn's Gold created a crucible-like creature out of his soulless flesh. Maybe the only reason Marika, impaled with Destined Death, doesn't transform is because she already has Crucible in her or because her Godhood renders her immune to such affliction since the Greater Will controls her fate more. Also worth pointing out that the "poison swamp" seen in the DLC has been theorized to instead show veins of this crucible sap instead of poison. Same thing with colors seen behind the omens in yellow holding candlesticks.
Maybe the amount of nascent butterflies we find at important plot locations and the nature of St. Trinia and history of Miquella travelling the land with Torrent, as well as Malenias willingness to leave Miquella unprotected, were always meant to hint at Miquellas out of body, spirited being, similar to Melina but ultimately still very much able to influence the Lands Between. Miquellas has probably always been guiding us.
I think Messmer was a tool used by Marika . Someone she birthed to oppose the order of the crucible ,while she slipped in to usurp power while no one was the wiser of her treachery .
Personally i think the deathroot sprouting from the half-corpse of godwyn is finally metamorphosing into its next stage: a rival to the erdtree. We see this in how there appears to be 2 trees: the erdtree, being ripped out of the ground and crooked, cracked and pouring sap, and the second tree, godwyn's deathroot, spiked and wrapped around it. This is supported by another detail,the location of godwyn's corpse and the location of the second tree. Godwyn's corpse is buried at the deepest roots of the erdtree, given an erdtree burial of the most regal sort, reserved only for the greatest under the golden order, instead of simply being buried in a catacomb. And this second tree strangling the erdtree sprouts right next to it.
I'm thinking Messmer is Marika's firstborn, born before she shacked up with Hoara Lou. Maybe with some unknown man/lord, maybe with a dragon. He could be tasked with enforcing her will where she doesn't have to look at him.
hey everberon, do you believe in the theory that the outer god of dragons was the greater will? I believe so and there is a lot of evidence in the game that supports this, firstly there is the fact that in the original Japanese the kanji used to describe the outer gods, which in this case is (sotonaru kami) is not used in the remembrance of the dragonlord, indicating that the The god spoken of is not an outer god, and secondly, the title elden lord seems exclusively linked to the greater will since any other lord linked to another outer god is never mentioned as or mentions wanting to become elden lord but rather uses another title of lord, like lord of blood for Mohg and the formless mother, lord of frenzied flame for frenzied flame and lord of night for the prophesied lord of the nox which is probably what we become when choosing lordship alongside Ranni, with that placidusax Being called an elden lord seems to allude to a greater will only, there is some more evidence of this in the fact that there are numerous times that both red and yellow gold appear several times in things related to Farum Azula and the ancient dragons
I 100% believe this too. It seems like whoever Placidusax looked too as a god was following the Greater Will, and imposing a set of conditions on the Elden Ring.
Do you think it's possible that what Marika was trying to do was not absorb the crucible tree's essence but rather try to force the tree to release its seeds? obviously the erdthree would have to come from some kind of only or something and the crucible tree would probably emerge from the crucible itself so do you think Marika's erdthree could be a descendant of the original tree? erdthree itself only released its seeds when it knew its end was near and something similar probably applies to the original tree, and apparently it is being killed by death roots, could Marika have used the rune of death to force the original tree to release its seeds then?@@everberon
Everyone seems to be missing the point about mesmer. "Those stripped of the grace of gold" are the people who have gone along with what his mom wanted. They were banished, and they left without a fight. Now called back they (mostly) come back willingly. He's going to kill you for participating in her plans. He is a rebellious child. "Oh, Mother, would you truly lordship sanction one so berefted of light?" He saying "mom, you don't know what you're doing, I disagree with you"
If you look at tarnished archeology videos, he shows libation statues of marika in contrast to the catacombs libation statues claiming that marika probably had a life libation ritual using the crucible tree sap, to give life to things in contrast to the libation nuns who probably used to use libation as a death ritual for the death rite birds. Its very interesting and fits your theory. You should watch hos videos 😊
love the video, sofar it sems like the shadow of the tree is taken quiete literally with everything in opposition being experimented or/is flourishing in this hidden place. since marika has a hand in this it wouldnt be too far fetched that she has hidden everything that could work against the erdtree in this place before smashing the ring, messmer having seemingly everything at his disposal which is directly forbidden by the erdtrees degree seems to also be a clue. i think miquella might went to the shadow place to pick up where marika left of perhaps.
I agree that the tree is the real object of interest and I'm sure that given this is the place where Marika's fuckery all started, I'd almost say below that tree lies the cruicible of life - the place where the star containing the Elden Beast sent by the Greater Will first came crushing down and it is here where the Erdtree grew. So Messmer might be actually in charge of keeping folks away from the tree and we are about to approach whatever lies down there. Maybe a part of the Greater Will itself. And that's probably why Miquella is heading there - to grant Godwyn a new life or soul.
this makes a lot of sense, do you think the greater will could have sent the elden beast specifically to open the crucible and make all life emerge from it? Could this have been the greater will error that frenzied flame mentions?
@@davisiotta489I'm not sure if the cruicible actually existed before the Greater Will. From what I understood, the Greater Will itself is responsible for life, which is why the frenzied flame calls it the Greater Will's mistake. So the cruicible might actually be some kind of life essence that came alongside the Elden Beast and the Erdtree grew from that essence. So what I can imagine is that this tree in the Lands of Shadow is a previous Erdtree which has been drained of its essense and Marika has used that drained essense to grow the Erdtree that we now know, except that life that emerges now is 'purer' and probably explains why the Omen and Misbegotten are deemed filth - to cover up the past. Remnants of the past age.
@@NorthstriderGaming I'm not saying that the crucible necessarily came before the greater will, but that the elden best came a little later to manage the brute essence of life in living beings, I still think it's debatable whether the greater will is responsible for the creation of the essence of life but she at least seems to be the creator of living and sentient beings, the crucible in its original form and the brute essence of life still seem to me to be more linked with the one great
Since the release of the trailer ive assumed this was the land they left to build the erd tree or the kingdom they hailed from that led to growing theirbown crucible. And when it burned down they made a new order the ethereal erd tree.
I would even say something as crazy as its also the first cardinal sin that was studied by a certain "traitor mentor" the starlight sorcery even mentions sage freke being imprisoned and the great old one looks like a burnt tree
I think that the goal of DLC might be purifying Godwyn's body for Miquella to transfer his soul into much like how Ranni had the doll. And potentially you could choose between who you revive or if you sabotage the ritual at the conclusion of the DLC, leading to a couple differing endings. I anticipate it'll unlock a couple new "Age of" cinematics for after you become Elden Lord. One for Miquella, one for a revived Godwin, a renewed Crucible age and perhaps a Saint Trina ending?
I like the idea that Miquella is actually there to restore Godwyn and force him to be his lord in the new era of Miquella's godhood, though he requires the player for some reason to complete the process.
I think it will mostly refer to a fusion between life and death, making it so that no one is immortal in the lands between anymore. I mean, no more gods will be able to do what Marika did since everyone will be mortals, so no abuse of power from any faction.
There is a lot I'd like to add but you are not wrong. I'd would like to point out the talisman "blessed Dew" I hope by reading this you are more excited. Good watch
@@everberon if you get a chance and have the item Erdtree surcoat. Look at the image on it. A tree root system goes very deep and then spreads further then what the top of the tree it's self up top does. Sap comes from the top of the tree, we will in fact be in the shadow or shade of the Erdtree, as in under it. The lands in between are in fact built on the inside of the surface or inbetween the land and surface. The Erdtree we see in base game is the roots of the original great tree. Most of what we see is an illusion. Go to Zamor ruins look out and you will see land mass that looks like spikes. These type of spikes only grow down from the tops of caves. We in the land between are upside down. The workings of god
Yo i saw an interesting detail today comparing to the DLC trailer. The cleanrot knights weapon resemble both the impaller’s spear and possibly miquella’s halfmoon rune show in the trailer.
Some more potential evidence to support this, is miyazaki said this is where marika became a god, and it was an untold story of the erdtree. There was a god before her that fled and placidisax waits. in the trailer. there is ruins floating away. On some of the buildings, similiar to farum azula, we never knew why the beastial sanctum was in dragonsbarrow and not in farrim azula. what if it was in this war that farum azula was seperated, where she would seperate destined death shorrly after If there was a war, it wouldve been probably to establish herself as the one god. Thus it being an unsung war, which marika. not want anybody to know that there were things before her. if the sea inbetween leyndell and dragonbarrow is where tge new map is supposed to be. it would align with farum azula. Perhaps her rise came from blasphemous means. Marika is known. To discard, of anything relating to the crucible or blasphemous to her order.
18:54 Bybtrsiler we know that the war in land of shadow was an UNSUNG BATTLLE THAT LEADS TO SET ABLAZE TO MESSMER'S FLAME. So that means that it was not Marika that destroyed the Erdtree BUT MESSMER with HIS FLAME. Keep in mind that MESSMER flame IS NOT GIANTS FLAME NOR BLOOD FLAME it's a new flame
Wow, Very interesting video!! True not too many ppl have brought up The Crucible in their vids, and I really liked your take that this tree may even be The Crucible itself (I haven´t heard nor thought of that myself)!!
The Crucible wasn't a tree proper, but more like a stump that's growing new shoots. One of these shoots was the Erdtree. At least if the crucible statues are to be believed. The DLC tree looks similar to the Heiligtree in form... Which makes me suspect that it might be the first tree. The tree of the Gloameyed Queen and Placidusax.
I truly believe that the Gloam Eyed Queen may have been the goddess of the previous era, I have been wondering if then Marika could be the daughter of these two
Maybe a bit obvious, but considering Miyazaki says that these new lands are "overshadowed by this particular Shadow of the Erdtree" (TITLECARD) it makes me think that, well, that's literally what the tree is called. It's the Shadow of the Erdtree and, well, considering it's physical presence, it literally overshadows the Land of Shadows. But that doesn't mean I think your theory is wrong. Far from it. The theme of the DLC, one of anyways, is that these lands contain many things Marika discarded and would rather forget about ever existing. Marika is also central to the plot, as well as "what she did" in these lands. To that effect, I think many of the things here will be connected to her - and who else could we blame (so to speak) for the Erdtree supplanting the Crucible, but Marika herself? She's known to use things she doesn't like to contain OTHER things she doesn't like - look at the Fire Giant. It's possible that she left some scrap, some mere semblance of the Crucible so she can use it as one of the anchors to keep the Land of Shadows physically separate from the Lands Between. Thus, did it become known as "The Shadow of the Erdtree". Except, instead of something that reflects the CURRENT form of the Erdtree, it could be possible that the Shadow takes the form of what the Erdtree once WAS; in other words, the Crucible. I mean, I think we can all see it looks pretty fucking different than the Erdtree, don't it?
Very interesting theory actual giving me ideas for my own theories, it’s also the best I’ve seen so far, maybe messmer is keeping marikas secret in the shadow realm or he tried becoming a god himself
And miquella has never responded to Mohg as Mohg stated.He did not want to be Kidnapped,He had already left his body before mohg got him.He used the tree to travel to the lands of shadow obviously.
Entering the interstice. The dreamscape. The spirit world even, wink wink to the magic reindeer Honestly the bow of the great tree dripping Amber, reminds me of the tree
I've always thought that there is a chance that Miquella became Messmer, basically Miquella is Messmer. Perhaps, it was Mohg's tainting and meddling with Miquella that caused his change of character or being, and maybe your job is to purify Miquella of his afflictions, which could be why after Messmer's boss fight in the trailer, it shows an image of Miquella purified. Also, compare Miquella's hand in the cocoon, to the hand that holds Messmer's flame. They also seem to have similar rings, Miquella's symbolizing the Erdtree, Messmer's symbolizing what seems to me more heretical
I think it'd be interested if Messmer is the third brother of Mohg and Morgott - or better yet was Marikas first consort and that is why Mohg and Morgott were born of the crucible. Jealous ex bf would be crazy
There is a detail that iv'e noticed with the telescope in the game, and the other that i tought, and would like to someone to explain to me. The first one is that the miquella has a ring of three snakes, you can watch it with the telescope in front of the cocoun( mog palace), could it be like the two fingers, three fingers...etc but with snakes? Like the first scource of wisdom , before the fingers. In mt gelmir, volcano manor you can watch statues with serpents, but they have bird wings, witch doesn't make very sense, or was the serpent god a dragon wannabe 😂 and failed to become one, Mesmer is following the same steps, and the grace he refers is not the same grace that we see in the lands between, it's like shadow grace before the erdtree, maybe the crucible like said in the video. The last point that i still dont unsderstant and if someone explains to me, i would be thankfull. If miquella has a body of a child, why does hi's arm, be bigger ou twice our size ahahaha Maybe it's not miquella inside the cocoun, and its the thin and big mesmer, with his big arm, and the ring may have some conection
Im calling it now that the land of shadows is below the lands between. And that the lands between rests upon the upper branches of the tree in the land of shadows. Also that the eerd tree is but an extantion of the big ass tree. Since it's dying below that might be why the eerdtree looks almost ethereal. It's an illusion.
Let me share my thoughts what we know for a fact. We know that Godfrey was the leader of Crucible knights. We know that his lineage named Golden, but WHEN THAT HAPPENED? It happened when he bestowed as an advisor Serosh LORD OF BEASTS (Keep that in mind) we found Serosh emblems in Fortified manor (first round tablehold at the capital) if someone looks closely to Serosh, you know what he will realise? THAT THE ONE'S THAT MADE THE SEROSH EMBLEM PICTURE HIM AS......... A GOLDEN LION(I SAID IT) that explains maybe why the lineage of Godfrey names Golden. We also know that Serosh is by Godglfrey's side to ENSURE that Godfrey is at bay and not give in to his thirst of battle. We don't know where Godfrey came from (We know that Marika is a numan). Also the Axe that Godfrey holds AFTER he became the first elden lord is actually the WEAPON THAT SEROSH HOLD AS LORD OF BEASTS (Remember when we fight Godfrey and see Serosh, Serosh wears a crown on his head and he has a wound on his face). Now to the crucible. Godfrey was the lord of Crucible knights remember that all crucible knights mastered Godfrey 's stomp attack? Now let's move on to Queen Marika, all statues of her picture her at the state we found her inside the Erdtree BUT all statues that picture her HAS A VEIL BEHIND HER as a sign that SHE WANTS TO KEEP A SECRET? if we look closely to the shadow of Erdtree trailer when the players sees the full picture he sees a VEIL COVERS THE REALM, does the veil shots some memories? Because to me the veil is ODENTICAL TO THE VEIL WE SEE AT QUEEN MARIKA'S BED CHAMBER (Yes I ve said it again). We also know that this realm of shadow WAS THE FIRST PLACE THAT GODESS MARIKA FIRST SET FOOT. That means that either Marika BORNED THERE OR SEEK A REFUGE FIRST THERE. We know from Miyazaki interview that this is a side story parallel to the story of Elden ring. That to me means is that we see a long forgot culture, like we see if we pay attention to Ferum Azula. Now to one of MARIKA'S children one of the twin prodigies Miquella, if we pay attention Miquella's Un allowed Lilly is identical to the ST TINA'S LILLY that means ST TRINA is somehow connected to Miquella or ST TRINA IS THE ALTER EGO OF MIQUELLA. We know that Miquella gone to realm of shadow DERIVED FROM. HIS FLESH, HIS LINEAGE AS EMPYRIAN AND SON OF MARIKA AND FINALLY DERIVED OF ALL THINGS GOLDEN. One question though. We know that Ranni is EMPYRIAN also and was given blidd as her SHADOW, my question is if a chosen EMPYRIAN has a shadow (that resembles to me a connection like Marika and Maliketh, Godfrey and Serosh) WHERE IS MIQUELLA'S MALENIA'S SHADOW? Now to mesmer of what Miyazaki told is fact then Messer HAD A THRONE TO WHERE WE FOUGHT MORGOT SHOW US THE THRONES. If you look Messer CLOSELY things things gets intersting 1. Messmer's opened eye IS IDENTICAL TO DRAGON COMMUNION EYES. 2. HIS ARMOR IS IDENTICAL TO DRAKE KNIGHTS 3.BUT HIS APPEARANCE RESEMBLES ALSO TO MALENIA'S CLEAN ROT KNIGHTS ALSO. 3. BEFORE WE SEE THE MESMER FLAME AT HIS HAND LOOK CLOSELY AND YOU WILL SEE SHADOW TAKING FPRM OF A FLAME.
I'm 100% sure there will be a 17th Crucible knight. Ordovis and Siluria, the two most notorious knights, took their name from the Ordovician and Silurian eras, that were the second and third eras of the Paleozoïc period. The first one is the Cambrian, 500M years ago. And the Cambrian is when most of lifeforms began to diversivies and complexifies, giving a pheonomenon called the "cambrian explosion". So I hope we'll see a cambrian crucible general or some sh*t
It has been nearly a year since I've covered an Elden RIng / Souls related topic. It's good to be back :)
Keep it coming. Top tier content
So that first Image of the DLC may actually be Queen Merika on Torrent. I thought it was Miquella. But the detail of your video made me realize that it could be when Merika first arrived. There are no buildings surrounding the Tree.
The braids on her hair match the character riding Torrent.
Adding more value to your crucible theory. Which is interesting.
Now it makes sense, when mohg says you have to abide awhile to miquilla.
He indeed was with him in land of shadows, when we reach his palace, he spawns, telling miquilla the said lines and fights us.
Great video
@@bartsimpson8002 According the Director Miyazaki, it was actually Miquella. He says as much in the IGN interview. I was thinking it may be Marika too, but this makes sense I think.
Mohg was unable to make contact with Miquella as the game stated a couple times already likely because Miquella had already realized his plan was going to fail so he abandoned his body to enter the realm of shadow in order to accomplish his goal so Mohg had basically a corpse. Now that Mohg is gone its being used to to facilitate travel to the shadow lands for the Tarnished who got rid of someone basically everyone in the lands between saw as a pest. Mohg was trying to force himself into becoming a lord while Miquella wants someone actually worthy of the title.
You have to remember basically everyone thought Mohg was unimportant so it was shocking to find out he Kidnapped Miquella and i doubt Miquella someone who was trying to push away the influence of the outergods would willingly be bound by ones influence
The fact that the Crucible is said to be the " primordial form *of the Erdtree* " implies that the Crucible and the Erdtree are one and the same, with the former becoming the latter. Some orange can still be seen in Erdtree incantations too, such as when using Golden Vow. While this orange isn't diffused entirely through the sigil and light, it's still present, and it can also be seen when using Rune Arcs or watching Radagon fight. Additionally, regarding the Crimson Amber Talisman, that is not the only amber talisman said to have "primordial life energy." The same wording is used when describing the Cerulean and Viridian Amber Medallions, and thus the primordial life energy isn't exclusive to red amber.
I have been thinking this for weeks and have wondered why no one was talking about this. I would take it a step further and say that not only is that the Crucible but that Marika used Messmer to burn the Crucible as a way of ending the old age and starting her new one.
I read in some ER lore that the crucible was once housed within/beneath a Great Tree that came before the Erdtree and the Golden Order. There are so many references to the crucible in the trailer. I think this is a really viable theory. The DLC will almost definitely tell us what Marika did to make the crucible and its cultures disappear from the Lands Between, such as exiling an entire part of the world to another realm?
Deep ROOT depths.
I think Marika was trying to protect the crucible. I know it sounds hard to believe from all the community has construed of her behaviours. But I believe she has been playing a long game against the greater will and radagon and the golden order for a very long time. It’s why the Numen and seemingly the Nox support her even if they don’t worship her or the greater will.
She is basically a sleeper agent. This is why she divested us of our grace and sent us away. This is why she wants us to grow stronger in the face of death and to return, brandishing the Elden ring to become Elden lord cyclically. This is why she removed death (among other reasons) so that the lands between would weaken and whither. So that faith in the erdtree and the greater will and it’s prevalence could meander and dissipate.
I propose Marika is our fucking hero, but she can’t do this all herself. She needs us. She always knew she would. Radagon opposes her st every turn with his unyielding leal disposition in association with the golden order and the greater will.
This is why she kept the crucible hidden in shadow. To protect it and it’s culture. This is why she sends her most powerful warrior and protector Godfrey and all of his brethren tarnished away to return again stronger later when she needs them to overthrow a weakened greater will. This is why she tasks master Hewg with crafting us a weapon to kill a god. This is why he prays to her lovingly and obediently does this service for us in her honour and speaks of the terror of her. Not how terrifying she is, but how terrified she was.
This is why she tasks her demigod children with achieving whatever their aspirations are. But should they fail in their endeavours, she’s warning them that under the greater will, they will amount to nothing but sacrifices for this farce of a greater will. It was a rallying cry, not a bad mother move.
This is why she hid Messmer there, her child born from Radagon against her will during the reign of Godfrey as Elden lord. She continues to oppose Radagon and his machinations at every turn. Additionally if you read her quote to him within her bed chambers with the right tone, you can see clearly she was leveraging her power as a god over him. This one thing she could do that he didn’t believe she would ever. She did do when she shattered the Elden ring.
I believe messmer’s flame is the crucible’s flame. That in the lands between his flame was divided and distinguished. Destined death flame, black flame, blood flame, giants flame and the flame of frenzy all together make Messmer’s blasphemous flame.
He was born with those snakes embedded in him. This is why Marika had to flee with him and hide him into the shadow realm. The same realm that she hid the crucible in and many other things that opposed the erdtree and the greater will, in order to preserve them.
where do you do most of your reading for elden ring lore? i’m interested in exploring this stuff by myself rather than strictly video
item descriptions hold a vast majority of the available lore, read the descriptions of armor sets, spells, incantations, and talismans; those seem to have ALOT of lore@@guuchbumpz
I think the DLC will expose the crimes she committed among her own people since the imperiums only come from the realm of shadows and she has been trying to cover up everything she did from the people of the lands between because they worship her as a goddess I think queen Merika is actually evil and Messmer is the good guy which is why everything he represents is despised by the golden order she built in the lands between
At the end , we are going to find out that messmer is really patches in a wig. And a fine Elden Ring Shadow of the Erd Tree dlc expansion to you.
So - if you're going to look at Messmer, can I suggest a path to follow. His name is definitely inspired by Franz Mesmer (from whose name we get the word "Mesmerise" and "mesmerism"). To quote wikipedia: "He theorized the existence of a process of natural energy transference occurring between all animate and inanimate objects; this he called "animal magnetism", later referred to as mesmerism" I think the links to the animalistic nature of the crucible is there, I just haven't been able to parse it out yet.
This would somewhat explain why it's call "The Lands Between" to begin with. It is the land inhabiting the time and space between the old age (Crucible) and the new age (whatever you choose as the ending)
I hope you see this but, let me go with sone madman rambling:
-The land of Shadows is where Marika arrived on the LB
-The Erdtree is a parasyte(maybe Marika's Two Fingers)
-Ingame we see it as a golden, beautiful bright tree but that's all façade, the real erdtree is the one we see in the DLC, choking the Crucible
-The building receiving the sap may be a representation of the Golden Order/Márika taking the ancient energy to provide the grace
Basically, the real form of the tree is hidden with the rest of the Shadow Lands, and Marika just threw a big lie, which at the end, made her feel guilty and start the shattering. Hope it makes sense
Extra: I'd say that deathblight it's either a form of the crucible to push against said parasyte OR the real form of the Golden Order, a parasytic form of life that expands everywhere(like Farum Azula) and chokes life itself(like the twisted tree)
my prediction is that the final boss of the dlc will be miquella. The resemblance in narrative and visual design to Griffith is quite notable. Maybe he has traveled to the land of shadow to achieve godhood at any cost, and maybe he will have some insane transformation to do so, such as griffith turning into fempto. I also see that due to the land of shadow being in an eclipsed like state, but obv this speculation is determinant on Miyazakis willingness to implement berserk plot points into his games lol
We can only hope
Something that has occupied my mind is the horned lion depictions, since the crucible realtes to Godfrey's age the golden lions with the horns remind me an awful lot about Serosh. A golden lion spirit perches upon Godfrey, which it implies he supported the age of crucible along with having omen twins
It just has me thinking what this could imply about Godfrey despite the DLC being mostly about Marika and Miquella
All of this is more fuel for the Tarnished Archaeologist fire that the Erdtree was grafted onto the Crucible.
Seems like a solid theory. It won't be a trip back in time, instead a trip to whats left of the land ruled by the Crucible) and currently hidden by the Lands Between. Kind of makes you think there's one more place, on the other side (if it's the Lands between, and the crucible is on one side, what's on the other).
I like thinking of the shadow lands as hell with the Lands Between above it. Perhaps the divine plane (if there is one) is above the stars we see in the Lands Between or maybe the divine plane is space itself. Which might make sense when you consider the stars "cradle fate" and the elden beast itself came down here on a golden star.
Honestly, I think Mesmer is the Gatekeeper of the Underworld or The Land of Shadow.. Just think about it, she knew her mother Queen Marika ascended to Godhood and the Golden Order knew it wouldn't last forever. On the land of Shadow,. it's just a prison that gatekeeps the Lands Between from it's Secret. I honestly feels like Mesmer is the Eldest & Firstborn of all the Demi-Gods and was task to guard the secrets of the Erdtree. That's why he's equipped with all of the kind of Blasphemous magic just to protect Marika and her secrets.
He guards all the enemy inside the land of Shadow acting like how Hades guards the underworld himself while the Gods of Olympus are enjoying their life. That's why Mesmer seems surprised to see a Tarnished being blessed by Marika without the Grace of Gold.
Overall, I still think Mesmer was always been part of the Golden Order. He's always been the Gatekeeper from the very beginning.
Messmer's situation could be explained simply with one element;
Timeline.
We do not know how long Messmer has been sitting in the Land Of Shadow, or how long he'd been doing his...cleanup. The simplest explanation for his apparent hypocrisy and heresy is that he comes from a time when such things weren't heresies at all.
Between the fall of the Dragonlord from grace and the rise of Marika's Order under the leadership of Godfrey, there seems to have been a middle period of sorts, where things the Golden Order currently scorns were not only accepted, but pivotal players within Marika's plans. The Crucible Knights exemplify this; once honored subordinates of Godfrey, feared and scorned but nonetheless tentatively allowed to exist, if only because they never seem to speak or show their faces.
Apply the same to Messmer.
If the unsung battle was Marika fighting for godhood, then Messmer would quite literally be Marika's oldest living child. His work would've been pivotal to her ascension; he was literally there from the beginning.
And before you say it, yes, I do know this also likely places Radagon very early in the timeline, and quite frankly, I don't see what the problem is with that. The Red Wolves' sword spell has the same color as the Crucible spells; clearly, he's been around for a while, but that's another topic.
The snake is considered, according to the Grave Duelist Helm, a "traitor to the Erdtree"; treachery implies previous allegiance. Considering Messmer's lack of existence in public record, this story is likely all that was left; a sort of metaphorical children's tale explaining why Marika hated snakes so much....
But that's just the thing.
Messmer himself clearly doesn't seem to think he betrayed anyone, or rather, that he betrayed Marika. He still seems to think he's enforcing her will, and that might just be the problem;
Marika's will and what Messmer thinks Marika's will is might be two very different things. After all, he's clearly confused by you, the Tarnished, being her current Lord; he did not have enough input on Marika's grander schemes, and acted out what he thought she wanted.
Really like this theory. I imagine that, maybe, Marika ignored the warnings from the Ancient Dragons about serpents being immensely evil because the only serpents she had seen at that point were the two winged serpents that were a part of Messmer, but once she found out about the Abyssal Serpent inside him and the God Devouring Serpent in Mount Gelmir, she could no longer abide by the belief that the serpents were not evil, and eventually took heed of the Ancient Drragons' warnings, which could have led to Messmer's banishment to the Land of Shadows.
Doesn’t sound like messmers working for Marika or the golden order. Rather seems like a “sinners get punished by satan” type of theme. If they’re stripped of the grace of gold, they’re left to burn in this blasphemous figures flames, like the unsaved burn in satans fire. Satan doesn’t work for god, he just inflicts torture on those abandoned by gods grace type beat
That's a great perspective on him that I haven't heard yet. That's good thinking, and may help to cut through some of the dissonance around him.
My theory is that Marika created the shadow lands when she separated the Erdtree from the crucible to create her golden order. The shadow lands is where all the undesireable elements of the crucible were banished. I also believe that this area once existed in the center of the lands between and is none other than Eochaid, the "lesser, long-vanished domain."
As for Messmer, I believe he was once a dual-aspected being, much like Marika herself. Specifically, the gloam-eyed queen. Marika has Radagon as her other self, and Melina has Messmer. You've no doubt noticed both Messmer and Melina are missing their left eye.
When Maliketh defeated the gloam-eyed queen, he tore out her left eye (this is the eye given to the player that detects deathroot.) Upon her defeat, the gloam-eyed queen was burned and left bodiless and her dual-aspected soul divided, much like Marika divided the Erdtree from the crucible.
The undesireable part was banished to the shadowlands; Messmer, and the one that remained was Melina the kindling maiden.
Miquella had to divest himself of physical form to reach the shadow lands and I believe Messmer is trapped there because he lacks one and exists as a soul, much like Melina.
Godwyn's corpse is currently soulless, but its deathroot has infected the roots of the Erdtree. I believe this is related to what we see happening to the shadow lands' Erdtree. If Messmer is trapped in the shadow lands because he lacks a physical form, it would be quite the problem if he chose Godwyn's soulless corpse as a vessel to escape and resume his former position as lord of destined death sans Melina.
Wow, you "get" it. Not often I see comments this thoughtful. Thank you
I don't think Gurranq is giving out literal eyes to search for Deathroot. Based on D's dialogue about hunting for Deathroot, he likely has one of those eyes as well. Also, if the Vulgar Militia found near some Deathroot are working for Gurranq as well (based on the Vulgar Militia guarding the Bestial Sanctum), then those individuals likely have some of those eyes to boot.
@@nightscout9979 I think D gave the eye back to Gurranq. Remember D says he needs someone to replace him because he has other business to attend?
@@shallotliltian7617 D is still hunting down Deathroot when the Tarnished arrives in the Lands Between, so D probably still has the eye that Gurranq gave to him.
@@nightscout9979 Well D would be hunting those who live in death regardless of Gurranq. He'a a golden order fundamentalist. I think it's likely that he informed Gurranq that he'd no longer be able serve as his dedicated deathroot bringer and returned the eye with the promise he'd search for a replacement. I think the "other business" that required his full attention was Fia's arrival at the roundtable hold and his desire to keep an eye on her and possibly kill her when she left the safety of the hold.
The beast eye doesn't seem like it's some sort of mass-produced tool. And with the game stating that Maliketh defeated the gloam-eyed queen, the eye having claw marks on it, Melina having marks that line up with those claw marks beside her missing eye, and Melina's eye being restored in the frenzied flame ending with the same color as the beast eye (which could have been discarded like our tarnished discards Torrent's ring) hinting at a connection to the gloam-eyed queen. I think the evidence is, frankly, overwhelming by Fromsoft's standards. I think this is clearly the conclusion they want the players to draw from these details.
I’ve been listening to a few different videos of yours while I work and I’ve gotta say they keep me entertained and thinking about the environments these games build so well. Thank you for the good listen 👍🏽
I'm so glad to hear it! Thank you and i'm glad you're enjoying them!
A point of note you may not actually know due to its dubious credibility is that the reason there is a dragon incantation in the shape of a rune bear may actually be because rune bears are going through the process of turning into a magma wyrm (this isn’t really baseless theory but it is up to personal interpretation) you can see their eyes changing and the bears are growing scales on their exposed skin and even early on outside the bound of the network test there is a rune bear out of bounds that drops a dragon heart when killed, giving some more basis to the idea. So rather than being connected to the crucible specifically i believe this bear will be an open world boss we find that is simply a rune bear further along into their metamorphosis into a dragon/magma wyrm
I saw some people discussing on tiktok how the feet on the lion dancer boss look like morgotts suggesting its several omen inside the lion, which adds to the already abundant crucible symbology in the lion dancer. It makes it all the more interesting that it seems like omens in this age (if they are omens) are respected enough to weild lightning magic and seemingly wear traditional garbs or even have traditions to begin with (lion dance.)
some good lore vids about grafting, especially tree grafting, that would crystalize this for you i bet
Incantation originating from a sinister prophecy.
Momentarily sparks flame from the caster's hand.
This incantation can be cast without delay after performing another action.
The flame of ruin is anathema to the Erdtree. But prophets sometimes glimpse it within the faith all the same. Sadly when this occurs their sole reward is banishment.
I look forward to the embrace of Messmer's Flame...
This is why i'm sure Messmer was banished, after say, burning a giant tree? It's the only way a key character just vanishes from history that i can see.
@@exquisitedoomlapointe185that we know of, anyways 😏 I can’t wait to see what other secrets come to light
One aspect that I find strange is that none stops to wander if Messmer is the one that atually stabbed Marika with the red spear.
We have Eva, stabbed by the serpent after she commits a sin, seems pretty strong simbolism right there. The serpent is the double headed serpent of Esculapio's rod, simbol of medicine, but can also be interpreted as dna, or lineage. And Messner stabbing her in the womb puts an end to her lineage. The question is, for what sin ?
As soon as I saw his title was 'The Impaler', my jaw dropped. My thoughts exactly.
8:13 placidusax was in fact elden lord before of the age of Erdtree. My speculation here is that the god that fled was none ether than Glowmite Queen. Remember that when we fought Maliketh in Ferum Azula, when Maliketh activates the rune of death his title changers to Maliketh SLAYES OF DEMIGODS, this title says the story for me because Maliketh WOULDN'T slain the DEMIGODS OF MARIKA'S children. And we know that Glowmite Queen and God skins are related somehow, so my speculation here is that God skins is Glowmite Queen's lineage of DEMIGODS and that DEMIGODS WERE SLAINED BY MALIKETH
I was thinking about this for a while but... Couldn't the Gloam Eyed Queen be Marika's mother? all the Empyreans we have seen so far are in one way or another descendants of Marika and the statement that Miquella and Malenia were born Empyreans because they were born from a single god makes it clear to me that lineage is the defining factor of an Empyrean, obviously the logic here is that Marika and Radagon are the same person and that's why their children have full divine blood and that's why they were necessarily born as empyreans, I don't think you need to have full divine blood to be an empyrean as demonstrated by Ranni but I I mean that having this complete divine blood will necessarily make you an empyrean. And with that I come to the conclusion that Marika has to be a descendant of a god, obviously this entire divine lineage has to have started with a first person who became a god but the various mentions of ages and gods before Marika make it clear that person was not Marika, Elden ring has this recurring theme of younger generations revolting against older generations like the empyreans going against the golden order and the trolls betraying the fire giants, I think Marika did the same thing and that's why she desperately tries to hide her past
@@davisiotta489 I don't know the relation between Marika and Gloam eyed Queen. All we know from the game is that there was a conflict between them. Gloam eyed Queen was the former Godess before Marika, if that is true that means she was an EMPYREAN in her age and she have an Elden lord. Because of the Godskins have access to Farum Azula, we can conclude that there has to be a relation among the citizens of Farum Azula and Gloam eyed queen. We see that in Farum Azula men lived among with beasts, an item drop from beast men, in its description we read "There was a time before the age of the Erdtree, that beasts were bestowed with intelligence as a gift" and when we fight Placidusax we read that he was the elden lord before the age of the Erdtree and he waits patiently for his God to come back.
@@dirmusloner7963 the connection between Marika and Gloam eyed Queen for me is the connection they both have with Farum azula, isn't it strange how Maliketh is Marika's shadow and has so many connections with Farum azula? he is strangely similar to the beastmen of Farum Azula and has knowledge of the enchantments of his beast clergymen, he himself claims to be a clergymen in his guise as Gurranq and knows some way of getting to Farum Azula, Malekith's arena has this statue of a little girl underneath the image of an Elden ring and after reflecting for a while, I believe that this statue could be representing Marika due to the fact that the little girl is being surrounded by three wolves which immediately reminded me of the spirit of the three wolves that we received right at the beginning of the game and Ranni says that this is from Torrent's previous master, this master is most likely Miquella and this makes me think that Marika may have given the spirits of her former wolves to Miquella, the fact that Malekith chose this location with this statue to stand among all the other places in Farum azula makes me believe that this statue has some meaning to Malekith
@@davisiotta489 that statue is Not Marika. The only relation that Marika has to Farum Azula is when she sends her first husband Godfrey or Hoarah Loux or lord if crucible knights to fight against Gloam eyed queen, Placidusax and the beast men. The statue surrounded by 3 wolves IS NOT Marika neither miquella
@@davisiotta489 Ranni a student of an occult witch in secret. You know that Gloam eyed queen one of her sorceries either than death incantations is COLD INCANTATIONS?
Finally. This was my first thought after seeing all of the animals in the trailer.
The way I always saw it, the Crucible of Life as the tree from the bible. Considering the religious tone of the game, it made sense to me that the game was going in that direction somewhat.
That's a great comparison too!
im kind of under the impression that messmer is sort of like an oath of vengeance paladin in bg3 (i have no experience in actual D&D) but hes willing to use whatever powers necessary to protect the erdtree and maybe golden order. maybe hes willing to use every single weapon at his disposal even including things that others consider heretical or blasphemous in order to keep the age of the erdtree ongoing, obviously this is speculation and wouldnt make alot of sense considering he is locked away in another land and cant really do too much to "protect" the erdtree. also miquella is the bad guy, i hate to say its literally berserk but he is literally going to be like griffith, a hawk of light assumed to be saving everyone but really hes a demonic god. even the first lines of the dlc trailer imply that miquellas intentions are not actually good and he has simply brainwashed others to go through with his plan, just like griffith in berserk.
I fully believe that Miquella's goal is to revive Godwyn and force him into being his elden lord for ascension.
Considering all the Judeo-Christian iconography and ideas in the base game of Elden Ring, it makes sense for there to be an Adversary of the Golden Order, a figure that exemplifies serpents, dragons, profane flames, and Hell. I wonder if Messmer’s role is to be the one who takes care of all of Marika’s unwanted Tarnished, those who “fall short of the grace of gold.” Look at all the Tarnished in the opening trailer-they’re all dead. Each one died, and then was brought back and transported to the lands between for this strange game of thrones. I wonder if Messmer is the one who killed all of those who lost the grace of gold in Marika’s time as god.
Really glad I was recommended this video, amazing, amazing job, and really underrated as you said, I was also waiting for everyone to talk about the Cruciable as its such an important part, like you so through explained, this will open and might touch so many questions.
Great job, and many thanks for the video, its a very elaborate and well made theses, and i found myself really elated to find it.
I kept going, thats right, thats right, thank you, thats right !!!
Glad you enjoyed it! Thanks for the kind words!
Land os Shadows seems to be like a prision island of sorts. Where those of the old belifs are keep in prision and hunted be Mesmer. He is the jailor - warden - and executner. Also the main prisioner.
His crimes, even been a demigod, seems to be so serious, that he is exiled there. In the lands of gold, the knowledge of him are erased because he is a stain in the Marika eyes.
But in this land are the secrets of the past, and Miquella are looking for that.
Can’t wait to hear you takes on everything from now and beyond release! Can’t believe it’s already been 2 years since I first stumbled upon your channel
Also, the title can be interpreted as the crucible being overshadowed by the erdtree, and not just destroyed like a lot of people thought it was. The way it looks could also be because of the golden orders attempt at destroying it. Another interesting thing I noticed was on the map there are golden rays of light the look very similar to the dark vails we see in the trailer
What if Messmer himself was installed by Marika to make sure the "Shadow Lands" remain hidden? He protects the Veil so his mother can do her sh*t in the Lands Between.
Also: LOVED YOUR VIDEO/THEORY! By far the best theory for the DLC.
Something I haven't seen mentioned or knowledged is that messemers body looks more like a alabaster lord. Maybe he's only a half brother to miqeulla
Ive been thinking the exact same thing and its been frustrating that noone in the lore communityn seems to think its a big deal. Im glad im not alone. I am so hyped to learn about the previous vessel for the Elden ring and her consort, its a part of the lore wich feels very delibratly hidden while still very important.
I was also thinking that maybe the two in painting was the Vessel and Elden lord, the woman is holding her stomach possibly beacuse thats where one carries the elden ring.
It's possible that the two in the painting are the same as the man and woman depicted in statuettes in Farum Azula, which would definitely tie into them being important figures from the past if true.
I always thought it might be the crucible but I thought it was a dumb theory so I didn’t tell anyone💀
That tree in looks like a loose version of a yew tree which if I remember correctly in literature represents life and death. The urd tree reminds me more of a white oak or something similar.
Personally I think that tree is connected to how half of the Haligtree looks like it was almost snapped off, esp since Miquella is there
This could very well be the case as well!
Isn’t that second tree the “eclipse”? It’s eclipsing the light from the erdtree and there’s a lot of connections to Miquella and his eclipse
I like this theory. Makes sense that the golden order would hide the crucible, like they hid the omens in the underground of leyndell
As soon as i seen the building catching the sap. I thought oh wow an actual crucible
I do strongly agree that the "shadow tree" either is The crucible, or is strongly associated with it. I first heard from Quelaag that the golden sap seen in the trailer is pouring into a literal crucible, so more power to the theory. I do disagree with the Mohg interpretation, tho. I see that his main concept is failure and delusional obsession, that he will never actually achieve his dynasty, nor acceptance from Miquella. It was stated in the released text that Miquella divested himself of his flesh. My question lies in exactly how deliberate this was, if that was always the plan, or if it was simply a last-ditch resort to confront Mohg's intervention.
The War being referred to is between the Giants and Erdtree faithful. The giants have been impaled by what looks to be tree structures in similar shape to Messmer's weapon and they watch over a crucible.
The golem thingy on fire when the quote about the war pays is full of fire giant corpses.
Pretty good video! I just had a insight with your colors theory: the reddish hue of the crucible enchantments may be due to the presence of the rune of death in the Elden ring. Since marika disconnected the death rune from the ring, the enchantments of the golden order became purely yellowish, or golden.
I thought of a theory that red could be representing blood, since blood is the essence of life within living beings, a representation of natural life, but the golden order rejects the natural and red is set aside
I love this theory and think there are many connections that suggest it may be true.
I don't think the voice at the end of the trailer talking about being burned by Mesmer's flame is Mesmer actually speaking though. The voice sounds different to when we see Mesmer speak to the player character presumably before his boss fight.
Good stuff. My only disagreement would be that i don't think the crucible is even a tree yet, it appears to refer more to a sort of arboreal crucible that the erdtree supplanted through grafting, but grafted plants tend to live limited lives and i think that's how the erdtree died to begin with. This is why Omens started to appear, as a warning that the erdtree is losing control and also why life in the shadow lands appear out of whack; it's out of control, the only tree that could control it is in terrible shape! But your take on the sap being likely the source of Marika's power is my own as well, i just think that to get the sap, you need to graft a tree onto the roots which appear connected to the crucible, a stump of sorts? (One only needs to look at a crucible knight helmet) My go to theory is that the old man in the trailer DLC is the botanist character all over Leyndell and Limgrave castle who does the grafting and Marika exploited him somehow.
That's a fair point! Good thinking!
Your delivery, voice, vocabulary, and enunciation are so goddamn good I'm subscribing
I love this video. Thank you.
It would make sense that Miquella would be searching for the missing ingredient to his Haligtree. His mother succeeded with the Erdtree, after all. I think this may be to reinstate the purest cycle of life, where destined death is returned, no one is shunned simply for being what they are, and souls are able to return to their primordial self once their life has come to its end. Hence all the talk of everything wanting to converge once again.
The godskins should play a part in the dlc, no? Considering marika was the gloam eyed queen in the land of shadow prior to ascending to godhood, you would think they would play a huge role somehow
Markia being the gloam eyed queen doesn't make sense
Yeah dont just spout unproven theories as dogma bro. If miyazaki wanted you to know who geq was then he would have put it in the lore.
@@steeltraditionalart it makes a lot of sense to me bro. I think the game provides a lot of hints toward it.
Fellow Marika is the GEQ truther, howdy. Why DOES Melina have the same clothes as Millicent anyway?
- If she's a cloned bud of her mother like Millicent is of Malenia
- and lost some memories but retains a purpose and identity
- and her mother is Marika (confirmed by game file names)
- and she gains a Gloam colored eye in the frenzy ending after you force her to retain her purpose rather than choose her own destiny and self immolate
- why does Gurranq/Maliketh act like Blaidd when he's baleful and taken over to force Ranni to abide by the greater will.
- why does Marika hate her shadow and only use him as a vessel to seal destined death
- cont, why would Marika set him up to be killed and have it stolen later? It's almost like she wants destined death out in the world again and unbound.
What does that all mean? Doesn't that all suggest that Marika was the Gloam Eyed Queen to you? It does to me.
@@mattb6616 Melania is the Gloam Eyed Queen
Theory I had a long time ago. Misbegotten, omens, dragons. They're all related. The prior age of dragons had living things beginning to evolve, wings, arms, legs, like the beast men and worm dudes living in Faram Azula. The pinnacle of all living things were the Omens which were living things that represented a unity between dragon beings and humans. Humanity was meant to evolve into something else but Marika didn't like this idea of things being mixed up. So she created the lands between, which separated all special characteristics of life into specific categories. She relabeled everything that looked fused or unseperated such as the misbegotten and omen as monsters to be killed, conquered, or hidden from the new perfect world she was trying to build.
I think a great example of this theory outside of the obvious (like Morgott) is Rykard. He fuses himself with a snake, and Marika and the Golden Order label him as blasphemous. Same with Godrick the Grafted and the process of Grafting. Mixing and fusing between different races if creatures were supposed to be a natural event made unnatural by Marika.
Why she wanted to do this? Haven't figured that part out. But it's just an idea I had a long time ago because I was a huge omen fan and I felt there was something significant with Morgott being the first boss we fight and a pinnacle when we get to Leyendell, and Mohg being the one guarding the underground and the opener for the DLC. Again just a theory and if it's wrong it's wrong.
I definitely looks like two trees, one wrapping around the other, two different kinds of trees.
I'd guess either; showing the past how the erdtree took over, or the hidden present that the old tree is regrowing and slowly killing the erdtree
I can't get inside of my head but every time I look at this picture of that tree it looks like a skull or at least a face
I think I see what you mean. It's sort of aimilar to how the roots of the Erdtree sometimes looks like the form of a human.
I’ve said that in every damn video n people just ignore me. It’s a skull the mout is the u shaped object collecting the sap.. the light is his eyes and the tree makes up the face. Almost as if the tree watching over them in a sense
I may have zoned out and missed you mentioning this fact, but the gold of the rune-like essence holding Marika and Radagon together in that cutscene looks strikingly similar to this sap spilling from the shadow tree! On top of that, I think the glow around Miquella in the clip from the very end of the trailer also seems quite similar to that same redgold hue of crucible incantations? I think those really drive forth the theory that Marika may have absorbed some of the crucible in her ascent to godhood and Miquella is possibly going to do the same as he follows in her footsteps in the Shadow Realm.
Though I assume Godwyn's form is the effect of stagnation and destined death, it's interesting to not that the interaction between the Red of Destined Death and Godwyn's Gold created a crucible-like creature out of his soulless flesh. Maybe the only reason Marika, impaled with Destined Death, doesn't transform is because she already has Crucible in her or because her Godhood renders her immune to such affliction since the Greater Will controls her fate more.
Also worth pointing out that the "poison swamp" seen in the DLC has been theorized to instead show veins of this crucible sap instead of poison. Same thing with colors seen behind the omens in yellow holding candlesticks.
Maybe the amount of nascent butterflies we find at important plot locations and the nature of St. Trinia and history of Miquella travelling the land with Torrent, as well as Malenias willingness to leave Miquella unprotected, were always meant to hint at Miquellas out of body, spirited being, similar to Melina but ultimately still very much able to influence the Lands Between. Miquellas has probably always been guiding us.
This was literally my first thought when I saw that tree. I'm surprised nobody else is talking about this theory.
I think Messmer was a tool used by Marika .
Someone she birthed to oppose the order of the crucible ,while she slipped in to usurp power while no one was the wiser of her treachery .
Personally i think the deathroot sprouting from the half-corpse of godwyn is finally metamorphosing into its next stage: a rival to the erdtree.
We see this in how there appears to be 2 trees: the erdtree, being ripped out of the ground and crooked, cracked and pouring sap, and the second tree, godwyn's deathroot, spiked and wrapped around it.
This is supported by another detail,the location of godwyn's corpse and the location of the second tree.
Godwyn's corpse is buried at the deepest roots of the erdtree, given an erdtree burial of the most regal sort, reserved only for the greatest under the golden order, instead of simply being buried in a catacomb.
And this second tree strangling the erdtree sprouts right next to it.
How can it be expected to exceed expectations 😂
I'm thinking Messmer is Marika's firstborn, born before she shacked up with Hoara Lou. Maybe with some unknown man/lord, maybe with a dragon. He could be tasked with enforcing her will where she doesn't have to look at him.
hey everberon, do you believe in the theory that the outer god of dragons was the greater will? I believe so and there is a lot of evidence in the game that supports this, firstly there is the fact that in the original Japanese the kanji used to describe the outer gods, which in this case is (sotonaru kami) is not used in the remembrance of the dragonlord, indicating that the The god spoken of is not an outer god, and secondly, the title elden lord seems exclusively linked to the greater will since any other lord linked to another outer god is never mentioned as or mentions wanting to become elden lord but rather uses another title of lord, like lord of blood for Mohg and the formless mother, lord of frenzied flame for frenzied flame and lord of night for the prophesied lord of the nox which is probably what we become when choosing lordship alongside Ranni, with that placidusax Being called an elden lord seems to allude to a greater will only, there is some more evidence of this in the fact that there are numerous times that both red and yellow gold appear several times in things related to Farum Azula and the ancient dragons
I 100% believe this too. It seems like whoever Placidusax looked too as a god was following the Greater Will, and imposing a set of conditions on the Elden Ring.
Do you think it's possible that what Marika was trying to do was not absorb the crucible tree's essence but rather try to force the tree to release its seeds? obviously the erdthree would have to come from some kind of only or something and the crucible tree would probably emerge from the crucible itself so do you think Marika's erdthree could be a descendant of the original tree? erdthree itself only released its seeds when it knew its end was near and something similar probably applies to the original tree, and apparently it is being killed by death roots, could Marika have used the rune of death to force the original tree to release its seeds then?@@everberon
Everyone seems to be missing the point about mesmer.
"Those stripped of the grace of gold" are the people who have gone along with what his mom wanted.
They were banished, and they left without a fight. Now called back they (mostly) come back willingly.
He's going to kill you for participating in her plans.
He is a rebellious child.
"Oh, Mother, would you truly lordship sanction one so berefted of light?"
He saying "mom, you don't know what you're doing, I disagree with you"
If you look at tarnished archeology videos, he shows libation statues of marika in contrast to the catacombs libation statues claiming that marika probably had a life libation ritual using the crucible tree sap, to give life to things in contrast to the libation nuns who probably used to use libation as a death ritual for the death rite birds. Its very interesting and fits your theory. You should watch hos videos 😊
I'll check it out! Thanks for the tip!
Very pleasant first video of yours. Great theory and very pleasant speaking voice. I look forward to seeing more from you!
Thank you kindly!
love the video, sofar it sems like the shadow of the tree is taken quiete literally with everything in opposition being experimented or/is flourishing in this hidden place. since marika has a hand in this it wouldnt be too far fetched that she has hidden everything that could work against the erdtree in this place before smashing the ring, messmer having seemingly everything at his disposal which is directly forbidden by the erdtrees degree seems to also be a clue. i think miquella might went to the shadow place to pick up where marika left of perhaps.
dude the hyppo porcupine thing looks really cool =P
More elden ring lore please 😁
I agree that the tree is the real object of interest and I'm sure that given this is the place where Marika's fuckery all started, I'd almost say below that tree lies the cruicible of life - the place where the star containing the Elden Beast sent by the Greater Will first came crushing down and it is here where the Erdtree grew. So Messmer might be actually in charge of keeping folks away from the tree and we are about to approach whatever lies down there. Maybe a part of the Greater Will itself. And that's probably why Miquella is heading there - to grant Godwyn a new life or soul.
this makes a lot of sense, do you think the greater will could have sent the elden beast specifically to open the crucible and make all life emerge from it? Could this have been the greater will error that frenzied flame mentions?
@@davisiotta489I'm not sure if the cruicible actually existed before the Greater Will. From what I understood, the Greater Will itself is responsible for life, which is why the frenzied flame calls it the Greater Will's mistake. So the cruicible might actually be some kind of life essence that came alongside the Elden Beast and the Erdtree grew from that essence. So what I can imagine is that this tree in the Lands of Shadow is a previous Erdtree which has been drained of its essense and Marika has used that drained essense to grow the Erdtree that we now know, except that life that emerges now is 'purer' and probably explains why the Omen and Misbegotten are deemed filth - to cover up the past. Remnants of the past age.
@@NorthstriderGaming I'm not saying that the crucible necessarily came before the greater will, but that the elden best came a little later to manage the brute essence of life in living beings, I still think it's debatable whether the greater will is responsible for the creation of the essence of life but she at least seems to be the creator of living and sentient beings, the crucible in its original form and the brute essence of life still seem to me to be more linked with the one great
If that's true, Miquella is 100% traveling there to revive Godwyn and needs the player to do something in order to make Godwyn into his elden lord.
Since the release of the trailer ive assumed this was the land they left to build the erd tree or the kingdom they hailed from that led to growing theirbown crucible. And when it burned down they made a new order the ethereal erd tree.
I would even say something as crazy as its also the first cardinal sin that was studied by a certain "traitor mentor" the starlight sorcery even mentions sage freke being imprisoned and the great old one looks like a burnt tree
OMG BRO! You have really interesting theories and an amazing voice
I wonder if that depiction on the Erdtree door of a tree upon a tree is reference to the crucible or great tree
I think that the goal of DLC might be purifying Godwyn's body for Miquella to transfer his soul into much like how Ranni had the doll.
And potentially you could choose between who you revive or if you sabotage the ritual at the conclusion of the DLC, leading to a couple differing endings.
I anticipate it'll unlock a couple new "Age of" cinematics for after you become Elden Lord.
One for Miquella, one for a revived Godwin, a renewed Crucible age and perhaps a Saint Trina ending?
I like the idea that Miquella is actually there to restore Godwyn and force him to be his lord in the new era of Miquella's godhood, though he requires the player for some reason to complete the process.
I think it will mostly refer to a fusion between life and death, making it so that no one is immortal in the lands between anymore. I mean, no more gods will be able to do what Marika did since everyone will be mortals, so no abuse of power from any faction.
There is a lot I'd like to add but you are not wrong. I'd would like to point out the talisman "blessed Dew" I hope by reading this you are more excited. Good watch
Gave it a read, and it certainly is an interesting bit of info. Very thought provoking.
@@everberon if you get a chance and have the item Erdtree surcoat. Look at the image on it. A tree root system goes very deep and then spreads further then what the top of the tree it's self up top does. Sap comes from the top of the tree, we will in fact be in the shadow or shade of the Erdtree, as in under it. The lands in between are in fact built on the inside of the surface or inbetween the land and surface. The Erdtree we see in base game is the roots of the original great tree. Most of what we see is an illusion. Go to Zamor ruins look out and you will see land mass that looks like spikes. These type of spikes only grow down from the tops of caves. We in the land between are upside down. The workings of god
10:50 Serosh was LORD OF BEASTS AND DEPICTED AS A GOLDEN LION ALSO.
Yo i saw an interesting detail today comparing to the DLC trailer. The cleanrot knights weapon resemble both the impaller’s spear and possibly miquella’s halfmoon rune show in the trailer.
Some more potential evidence to support this, is miyazaki said this is where marika became a god, and it was an untold story of the erdtree. There was a god before her that fled and placidisax waits. in the trailer. there is ruins floating away. On some of the buildings, similiar to farum azula, we never knew why the beastial sanctum was in dragonsbarrow and not in farrim azula. what if it was in this war that farum azula was seperated, where she would seperate destined death shorrly after If there was a war, it wouldve been probably to establish herself as the one god. Thus it being an unsung war, which marika. not want anybody to know that there were things before her. if the sea inbetween leyndell and dragonbarrow is where tge new map is supposed to be. it would align with farum azula. Perhaps her rise came from blasphemous means. Marika is known. To discard, of anything relating to the crucible or blasphemous to her order.
18:54 Bybtrsiler we know that the war in land of shadow was an UNSUNG BATTLLE THAT LEADS TO SET ABLAZE TO MESSMER'S FLAME. So that means that it was not Marika that destroyed the Erdtree BUT MESSMER with HIS FLAME. Keep in mind that MESSMER flame IS NOT GIANTS FLAME NOR BLOOD FLAME it's a new flame
Wow, Very interesting video!! True not too many ppl have brought up The Crucible in their vids, and I really liked your take that this tree may even be The Crucible itself (I haven´t heard nor thought of that myself)!!
The Crucible wasn't a tree proper, but more like a stump that's growing new shoots.
One of these shoots was the Erdtree.
At least if the crucible statues are to be believed.
The DLC tree looks similar to the Heiligtree in form...
Which makes me suspect that it might be the first tree.
The tree of the Gloameyed Queen and Placidusax.
I truly believe that the Gloam Eyed Queen may have been the goddess of the previous era, I have been wondering if then Marika could be the daughter of these two
If this really is the shadow of the Erdtree then perhaps the vines choking it are a representation of Radagon. He is after all associated with vines.
Maybe a bit obvious, but considering Miyazaki says that these new lands are "overshadowed by this particular Shadow of the Erdtree" (TITLECARD) it makes me think that, well, that's literally what the tree is called. It's the Shadow of the Erdtree and, well, considering it's physical presence, it literally overshadows the Land of Shadows.
But that doesn't mean I think your theory is wrong. Far from it. The theme of the DLC, one of anyways, is that these lands contain many things Marika discarded and would rather forget about ever existing. Marika is also central to the plot, as well as "what she did" in these lands. To that effect, I think many of the things here will be connected to her - and who else could we blame (so to speak) for the Erdtree supplanting the Crucible, but Marika herself? She's known to use things she doesn't like to contain OTHER things she doesn't like - look at the Fire Giant. It's possible that she left some scrap, some mere semblance of the Crucible so she can use it as one of the anchors to keep the Land of Shadows physically separate from the Lands Between. Thus, did it become known as "The Shadow of the Erdtree". Except, instead of something that reflects the CURRENT form of the Erdtree, it could be possible that the Shadow takes the form of what the Erdtree once WAS; in other words, the Crucible. I mean, I think we can all see it looks pretty fucking different than the Erdtree, don't it?
'Those stripped of the grace of gold . . .' - could Messmer be talking about Godfrey? Could the land of shadow and the badlands be the same place?
The spear impaled in marika is that same golden hue…
Very interesting theory actual giving me ideas for my own theories, it’s also the best I’ve seen so far, maybe messmer is keeping marikas secret in the shadow realm or he tried becoming a god himself
And miquella has never responded to Mohg as Mohg stated.He did not want to be Kidnapped,He had already left his body before mohg got him.He used the tree to travel to the lands of shadow obviously.
Entering the interstice. The dreamscape. The spirit world even, wink wink to the magic reindeer
Honestly the bow of the great tree dripping Amber, reminds me of the tree
considering the amount of beasts in the trailer, i think it will be a arcane / crucible themed dlc
This is the best video I have seen thus far about the lore of the trailer, and I very much agree.
I made a full crossbow quality knight because of the one in the trailer but now I want to make him a crucible knight.
I've always thought that there is a chance that Miquella became Messmer, basically Miquella is Messmer. Perhaps, it was Mohg's tainting and meddling with Miquella that caused his change of character or being, and maybe your job is to purify Miquella of his afflictions, which could be why after Messmer's boss fight in the trailer, it shows an image of Miquella purified. Also, compare Miquella's hand in the cocoon, to the hand that holds Messmer's flame. They also seem to have similar rings, Miquella's symbolizing the Erdtree, Messmer's symbolizing what seems to me more heretical
I think it'd be interested if Messmer is the third brother of Mohg and Morgott - or better yet was Marikas first consort and that is why Mohg and Morgott were born of the crucible. Jealous ex bf would be crazy
mother most likely refers to the formless mother that mohg worships, and she’s an empyrean who opposed merika
There is a detail that iv'e noticed with the telescope in the game, and the other that i tought, and would like to someone to explain to me.
The first one is that the miquella has a ring of three snakes, you can watch it with the telescope in front of the cocoun( mog palace), could it be like the two fingers, three fingers...etc but with snakes? Like the first scource of wisdom , before the fingers.
In mt gelmir, volcano manor you can watch statues with serpents, but they have bird wings, witch doesn't make very sense, or was the serpent god a dragon wannabe 😂 and failed to become one, Mesmer is following the same steps, and the grace he refers is not the same grace that we see in the lands between, it's like shadow grace before the erdtree, maybe the crucible like said in the video.
The last point that i still dont unsderstant and if someone explains to me, i would be thankfull.
If miquella has a body of a child, why does hi's arm, be bigger ou twice our size ahahaha
Maybe it's not miquella inside the cocoun, and its the thin and big mesmer, with his big arm, and the ring may have some conection
18:13 it was said by Miyazagi that in order for us players to actually enter the dlc WE MUST DEFEAT MOHG AND RADAHN SO MOHG IS OUT OF THE PICTURE
Im calling it now that the land of shadows is below the lands between. And that the lands between rests upon the upper branches of the tree in the land of shadows. Also that the eerd tree is but an extantion of the big ass tree. Since it's dying below that might be why the eerdtree looks almost ethereal. It's an illusion.
with miq’s high sentient IQ seeing this tree could have played a important role in developing the halo tree
Let me share my thoughts what we know for a fact. We know that Godfrey was the leader of Crucible knights. We know that his lineage named Golden, but WHEN THAT HAPPENED? It happened when he bestowed as an advisor Serosh LORD OF BEASTS (Keep that in mind) we found Serosh emblems in Fortified manor (first round tablehold at the capital) if someone looks closely to Serosh, you know what he will realise? THAT THE ONE'S THAT MADE THE SEROSH EMBLEM PICTURE HIM AS......... A GOLDEN LION(I SAID IT) that explains maybe why the lineage of Godfrey names Golden. We also know that Serosh is by Godglfrey's side to ENSURE that Godfrey is at bay and not give in to his thirst of battle. We don't know where Godfrey came from (We know that Marika is a numan). Also the Axe that Godfrey holds AFTER he became the first elden lord is actually the WEAPON THAT SEROSH HOLD AS LORD OF BEASTS (Remember when we fight Godfrey and see Serosh, Serosh wears a crown on his head and he has a wound on his face).
Now to the crucible. Godfrey was the lord of Crucible knights remember that all crucible knights mastered Godfrey 's stomp attack?
Now let's move on to Queen Marika, all statues of her picture her at the state we found her inside the Erdtree BUT all statues that picture her HAS A VEIL BEHIND HER as a sign that SHE WANTS TO KEEP A SECRET? if we look closely to the shadow of Erdtree trailer when the players sees the full picture he sees a VEIL COVERS THE REALM, does the veil shots some memories? Because to me the veil is ODENTICAL TO THE VEIL WE SEE AT QUEEN MARIKA'S BED CHAMBER (Yes I ve said it again). We also know that this realm of shadow WAS THE FIRST PLACE THAT GODESS MARIKA FIRST SET FOOT.
That means that either Marika BORNED THERE OR SEEK A REFUGE FIRST THERE.
We know from Miyazaki interview that this is a side story parallel to the story of Elden ring. That to me means is that we see a long forgot culture, like we see if we pay attention to Ferum Azula.
Now to one of MARIKA'S children one of the twin prodigies Miquella, if we pay attention Miquella's Un allowed Lilly is identical to the ST TINA'S LILLY that means ST TRINA is somehow connected to Miquella or ST TRINA IS THE ALTER EGO OF MIQUELLA. We know that Miquella gone to realm of shadow DERIVED FROM. HIS FLESH, HIS LINEAGE AS EMPYRIAN AND SON OF MARIKA AND FINALLY DERIVED OF ALL THINGS GOLDEN. One question though. We know that Ranni is EMPYRIAN also and was given blidd as her SHADOW, my question is if a chosen EMPYRIAN has a shadow (that resembles to me a connection like Marika and Maliketh, Godfrey and Serosh) WHERE IS MIQUELLA'S MALENIA'S SHADOW?
Now to mesmer of what Miyazaki told is fact then Messer HAD A THRONE TO WHERE WE FOUGHT MORGOT SHOW US THE THRONES.
If you look Messer CLOSELY things things gets intersting
1. Messmer's opened eye IS IDENTICAL TO DRAGON COMMUNION EYES.
2. HIS ARMOR IS IDENTICAL TO DRAKE KNIGHTS
3.BUT HIS APPEARANCE RESEMBLES ALSO TO MALENIA'S CLEAN ROT KNIGHTS ALSO.
3. BEFORE WE SEE THE MESMER FLAME AT HIS HAND LOOK CLOSELY AND YOU WILL SEE SHADOW TAKING FPRM OF A FLAME.
I'm 100% sure there will be a 17th Crucible knight.
Ordovis and Siluria, the two most notorious knights, took their name from the Ordovician and Silurian eras, that were the second and third eras of the Paleozoïc period.
The first one is the Cambrian, 500M years ago.
And the Cambrian is when most of lifeforms began to diversivies and complexifies, giving a pheonomenon called the "cambrian explosion".
So I hope we'll see a cambrian crucible general or some sh*t
You need to check out "The Chronicles of Amber", its a fantasy series that Elden Ring/Miyazaki borrowed heavily from when making this game.
Excellent video 👌