I'm not sure why an airline would install seats that have not been fully tested and certified for flight use. The same could be said of the problem at Swiss. Didn't they get proper weights from the manufacturer to be sure of correct weight and balance. Maybe they should look at the person responsible for cabin interiors.
Those things are ordered more than half a decade in advance. Ordering different seats when the problem with the MANUFACTURERS certification became aparent, those seats would also not be ready by now.
Wouldn’t any airline do any calculations on weight and balance and done proper testing before deciding on how many seats to be fitted in the airframe and ensuring seat rigidity?
Indeed, so I can't help but wonder that's there's more to these two stories. Silo mentality, diversity quotas and Dunning Kruger all have long rap sheets of expensive failures, for example.
@@nezbrun872 no , in this case it is collins aerospace's fault. LH likely thought they would test the seats bevore delivery bc that is reasonable to assume
If approval is going to happen, there is no reason to spend tens of millions on equipping the planes with old business class. Just like how manufacturers build planes before they are approved. They don’t build a few test articles, spend a couple years testing them, and then start manufacturing client aircraft once it’s approved. They ramp up building during approval and wait for final approval before delivering them. 🤡
I wonder if the problem with business class seats failing to secure certification, and the wider issues with cabin refurbishments (delays and complications with weights), is a manifestation of bureaucracy and poor communication between departments within giant groups such as Lufthansa?
My dad works at Lufthansa in the management for over 17 years by now and he says it’s just chaos and no efficiency nowadays. It used to work a lot better at Lufthansa.
Allegris might just be another nail in the coffin for Lufthansa. Not only does it take forever to get it rolled out and won't be installed on every plane but it's also heavy as hell... You mentioned the issues Swiss has with the same product. I just read about Easyjet using a new type of paint which will save 30 kg per plane. Could be an idea for another video btw. Doesn't sound like much but they expect to save up to 3.6 metric tones of fuel per plane per year which translates into just under a million € in savings per year through less fuel costs for the whole fleet. Just through 30 kg per plane... Meanwhile Swiss will install extra lead plates in order to balance the plane. And Lufthansa Group has a lot of fuel thirsty 4-engine planes in their fleet which will fly for years. With rising fuel costs guaranteed, managment really has made some poor decisions here that will cost a lot of money in the future. Let's see if customers are willing to pay that extra money. I really don't think so.
This reminds me a few years ago of the situation replacing the awful BA Club World rear facing seats, eventually they got on off the shelf design because the custom seat was getting too complicated. Maybe a regular reverse herringbone seat could work for Lufthansa, but some people just over think the situation.
I'm surprised that the video doesn't mention the fact that the economy seats in the Alegris cabins are 16" seats instead of the standard 17". That's where most passengers will be sitting on longhaul flights, so arguably the biggest issue.
Why is the situation embarassing for Lufthansa? Sound more like to me that Lufthansa is a victim here. I mean the problem is on the side of collins and Lufthansa gave them only a order. So the supplier is here to blaim
Would you order a product that isn't yet ready/certified for market? If Lufthansa knew, then of course they are also culpable. If they didn't know then they might have grounds for a lawsuit.
@@StopMediaFakeryIn the aviation world orders are made all the time with the expectation of future certification. For example all, new aircraft programs receive orders way before certification.
Because they have obligations / made promises to their customers. Now, they have to excuse themselves and point finger at their supplier. In the customers' eyes, this is a supplier that they chose.
It seems LH didn't follow up the contract with the necessary care. Such contracts are usually having several stages of approval. Especially if it's a new product which still needs certification. Thus, to blame a single party of the contract would be a bit too easy. It's not that LH wouldn't know the drill already.
@@okay_then3337 That's for new aircraft, not seats. Not the same thing at all. Of course they have to place orders for aircraft way in advance and hope for certification, otherwise they will wait for an eternity to get them. Seats aren't the same as an aircraft. If aircraft don't get certified they don't pay for them and continue to use older aircraft. This situation is partly down to Lufthansa making a bad call on seats. I think this channel was right to say it's embarrassing for them.
Too heavy seats, not certified seats... It seems there is not an area of new models free of those problem that design and certification clearly ask to be solved before selling an aircraft. And those "luxury" classes should probably belong to VIP or VVIP aircraft, not to "normal" commercial aviation
Oh they did. In fact a lot of people did. Guess why LH didn't follow up the contract properly. Exactly, the people required to take care have found jobs elsewhere.
There are many decent seats thta are so far beyond what lufthansa had. But instead lufthansa opted for 20 different special business class seats to be...different?
Tell you what... I'd love to pay for an economy seat, then after the "risky" takeoff and landing, move to occupy one of these business seats. Moving back to economy seating for the landing. Job done.
They can't even sort passenger seat's out. They even haven't pass the crash test or like the one's for SWISS which are too heavy. Imagine how f...ed up this industry have become. Why should we see this level of degradation in this industry?
Lufthansa seems to be lurching from one problem to another in the last few years, under Carsten Spohr's leadership, with the cumulative effective being plummeting customer's satisfaction & trust, and reducing profit margins despite it growing bigger. The discontent among pilots and cabin crew have also been rising. I hope that the supervisory board would take some corrective actions.
Why are you focusing this at the start as a Boeing issue. Even the title is suggesting it. Boeing has built the aircraft. The problems are with Collins and Lufthansa.
Considering they ak you for a lot more money to fly in one of these. It takes a bit of a cheek to find lall this out. AS to the poster who said person responsible well. how about this person, Grazia Vittadini. Member of the Executive Board. Technology & IT. surely she must have signed it off.
Lufthansa has a good idea of their business class model. It's a really nice touch that there are different types of business class seats for people to choose from. It's a shame that the FAA won't let them slide. Maybe they're scared that it'll crush the competition? 😂
@@sayorancode so the question is, are the seats going in the Airbus the same design as the Collins but the Collin's seats are not passing - is it an issue with Collins' manufacturing or are the seats inherently poor that the Europeans are giving a pass because it Airbus or is the FAA so incompetent that it has a standard that is unrealistic?
I'm not sure why an airline would install seats that have not been fully tested and certified for flight use. The same could be said of the problem at Swiss. Didn't they get proper weights from the manufacturer to be sure of correct weight and balance. Maybe they should look at the person responsible for cabin interiors.
Those things are ordered more than half a decade in advance. Ordering different seats when the problem with the MANUFACTURERS certification became aparent, those seats would also not be ready by now.
Wouldn’t any airline do any calculations on weight and balance and done proper testing before deciding on how many seats to be fitted in the airframe and ensuring seat rigidity?
Indeed, so I can't help but wonder that's there's more to these two stories. Silo mentality, diversity quotas and Dunning Kruger all have long rap sheets of expensive failures, for example.
Yes, it is very poor planning.
@@nezbrun872 no , in this case it is collins aerospace's fault. LH likely thought they would test the seats bevore delivery bc that is reasonable to assume
If approval is going to happen, there is no reason to spend tens of millions on equipping the planes with old business class. Just like how manufacturers build planes before they are approved. They don’t build a few test articles, spend a couple years testing them, and then start manufacturing client aircraft once it’s approved. They ramp up building during approval and wait for final approval before delivering them. 🤡
I wonder if the problem with business class seats failing to secure certification, and the wider issues with cabin refurbishments (delays and complications with weights), is a manifestation of bureaucracy and poor communication between departments within giant groups such as Lufthansa?
My dad works at Lufthansa in the management for over 17 years by now and he says it’s just chaos and no efficiency nowadays. It used to work a lot better at Lufthansa.
Allegris might just be another nail in the coffin for Lufthansa. Not only does it take forever to get it rolled out and won't be installed on every plane but it's also heavy as hell... You mentioned the issues Swiss has with the same product. I just read about Easyjet using a new type of paint which will save 30 kg per plane. Could be an idea for another video btw. Doesn't sound like much but they expect to save up to 3.6 metric tones of fuel per plane per year which translates into just under a million € in savings per year through less fuel costs for the whole fleet. Just through 30 kg per plane... Meanwhile Swiss will install extra lead plates in order to balance the plane. And Lufthansa Group has a lot of fuel thirsty 4-engine planes in their fleet which will fly for years. With rising fuel costs guaranteed, managment really has made some poor decisions here that will cost a lot of money in the future. Let's see if customers are willing to pay that extra money. I really don't think so.
So the ones on the A350 and made by Stelia have been crash tested?
They e been flying since last spring so I assume so
Not the first class seats
@@45crisessnot the first class seats
@@Blank00 this is correct. Well, I can only speak to the Munich - Vancouver route
@@Blank00and yet there are Lufthansa A350’s flying to USA daily
This reminds me a few years ago of the situation replacing the awful BA Club World rear facing seats, eventually they got on off the shelf design because the custom seat was getting too complicated. Maybe a regular reverse herringbone seat could work for Lufthansa, but some people just over think the situation.
I'm surprised that the video doesn't mention the fact that the economy seats in the Alegris cabins are 16" seats instead of the standard 17". That's where most passengers will be sitting on longhaul flights, so arguably the biggest issue.
Strong seats are big problems.
In eastern 401, many could not escape because seats were too strong
Well, it was the worst disaster of a passenger liner back then. And one of the main contributions to modern CRM.
Why is the situation embarassing for Lufthansa? Sound more like to me that Lufthansa is a victim here. I mean the problem is on the side of collins and Lufthansa gave them only a order. So the supplier is here to blaim
Would you order a product that isn't yet ready/certified for market? If Lufthansa knew, then of course they are also culpable. If they didn't know then they might have grounds for a lawsuit.
@@StopMediaFakeryIn the aviation world orders are made all the time with the expectation of future certification. For example all, new aircraft programs receive orders way before certification.
Because they have obligations / made promises to their customers. Now, they have to excuse themselves and point finger at their supplier. In the customers' eyes, this is a supplier that they chose.
It seems LH didn't follow up the contract with the necessary care. Such contracts are usually having several stages of approval. Especially if it's a new product which still needs certification.
Thus, to blame a single party of the contract would be a bit too easy. It's not that LH wouldn't know the drill already.
@@okay_then3337 That's for new aircraft, not seats. Not the same thing at all. Of course they have to place orders for aircraft way in advance and hope for certification, otherwise they will wait for an eternity to get them. Seats aren't the same as an aircraft. If aircraft don't get certified they don't pay for them and continue to use older aircraft. This situation is partly down to Lufthansa making a bad call on seats. I think this channel was right to say it's embarrassing for them.
Too heavy seats, not certified seats... It seems there is not an area of new models free of those problem that design and certification clearly ask to be solved before selling an aircraft.
And those "luxury" classes should probably belong to VIP or VVIP aircraft, not to "normal" commercial aviation
They should just put upgraded reverse herringbone seats that are found on the current 787s on all their new 787 aircraft
In Lufthansa, some people should lose their jobs .
Oh they did. In fact a lot of people did. Guess why LH didn't follow up the contract properly. Exactly, the people required to take care have found jobs elsewhere.
15 years of 787 in 2024
There are many decent seats thta are so far beyond what lufthansa had. But instead lufthansa opted for 20 different special business class seats to be...different?
Tell you what... I'd love to pay for an economy seat, then after the "risky" takeoff and landing, move to occupy one of these business seats. Moving back to economy seating for the landing. Job done.
these new biz class seats look uncomfortable anyway...
They are quite similar to the ones already flying on Lufthansa A350s. There are many reviews online and they seem to be well liked
Compensation claims should be made against the seat designer/manufacturer, not Boeing.
Whattt.....Haven't yet passed Crash-Test.....
They can't even sort passenger seat's out. They even haven't pass the crash test or like the one's for SWISS which are too heavy. Imagine how f...ed up this industry have become. Why should we see this level of degradation in this industry?
Real comment here: what a cluster!
it is boeings fault i cant prove it but it definately fr fr is no cap -- joke
First 5 stars in skytrax than this. Was is schlecht mit LH?
the fact that they decided to contract a US company
the 5th Star was based on the alegris cabin
Lufthansa seems to be lurching from one problem to another in the last few years, under Carsten Spohr's leadership, with the cumulative effective being plummeting customer's satisfaction & trust, and reducing profit margins despite it growing bigger. The discontent among pilots and cabin crew have also been rising. I hope that the supervisory board would take some corrective actions.
This product already introduced before COVID.. how can it be possible?
I'm at a loss for words....
Total screw up by the Lufthansa group they tried to design these in house and it totally backfired.
more complex, more regulations, more cost, more questions = more problems - this is an industry-wide issue
Why are you focusing this at the start as a Boeing issue. Even the title is suggesting it. Boeing has built the aircraft. The problems are with Collins and Lufthansa.
More Lufthansa Group interior issues?
What other airlines use this problematic seats?
That's it from now on were putting in lawn furniture and deck chairs
fire the guys at LH/LX in charge of new seats
luftasza should buy retired 767's from the bone yard and not be soooo fancy pancy with business class
Considering they ak you for a lot more money to fly in one of these. It takes a bit of a cheek to find lall this out. AS to the poster who said person responsible well. how about this person, Grazia Vittadini. Member of the Executive Board. Technology & IT. surely she must have signed it off.
Trust Lufthansa to get it wrong...
Lufthansa has a good idea of their business class model. It's a really nice touch that there are different types of business class seats for people to choose from. It's a shame that the FAA won't let them slide. Maybe they're scared that it'll crush the competition? 😂
american companies are kinda useless
Lufthansa is a horrible airliner. Their so called 2+2+2 business class really sucks, and is 10 years behind on United, Delta etc.
wait lufthansa is a airliner ?. so could united airlines preorder 20 lufthansa's to meet capacity demands ?
if you had compared them to emirates, quatar etc. i would agree. But to compare them to United or Delta is ridiculous. Those are worse
Lufthansa also has a 2 3 2 Business config in the 747-400
These are some stupid problems to have 😂
Can you speak Germany, because you sad Spiegel right. Would you like to make Videos with Aero News Germany?
i thin all can sodd off
Useless test
This guys accent sounds so awkward like he’s never said some words before. Please consider a different voice over
Boeing in the hot-seat again 🤣
The problem is Colins (the seat maker), not Boeing
Just because it's on a 787 doesn't mean it's Boeing's fault
@@NoteRedOSC Daily mail thinks it is
You can’t blame a seat on Boeing silly!
Daily Mail likes to make noise without ever giving a crap for truth nor facts 😂@thetruthbehindplanes
This wins the best comment. Airbus fan bois are jealous that they didn't think of it first.
This configuration is pathetic and stupid
So, the seats are not boeings problem.
they probably are - i am a airbus fan btw
@@sayorancodeso then by that logic, the first class seat issue on Lufthansa’s A350s must be Airbus’s problem
@@sayorancode so the question is, are the seats going in the Airbus the same design as the Collins but the Collin's seats are not passing - is it an issue with Collins' manufacturing or are the seats inherently poor that the Europeans are giving a pass because it Airbus or is the FAA so incompetent that it has a standard that is unrealistic?
@@sayorancodeclassic Airbus stan