The C-Line 6 Speed is on life support and will eventually go the way of the 6 Speed Electric, superseded by the 12 speed drive train. Manufacturing wise, it makes sense (common BWR hub/rear wheel assembly, common rear steel triangle). Meanwhile, as you suggested, those eager for an “acoustic” 12 speed (early adopters) will have to bite the bullet and go for a P (or T) Line (thus increasing Brompton’s 2024 revenue). As for the weights listed on the Brompton site, we are suspicious. Some don’t make sense, ex.: why is the difference between the P-Line 4 and 12 speed shown as 0.5Kg while the difference between the T-Line 4 and 12 speed is 0.8Kg?
Might they be fitting back the light wheels but only on the 12 speed to make for the difference? Brompton change so much their specs, specially due to (or excused on behalf of) manufacturing shortages, that at this point I would believe anything. They do some weird stuff. We need you and/or brilliantbikes to tell us the truth on the 2024 line up, it's a mess. Also, C line electric has gotten lighter while also getting the new rear triangle, but made of steel afaik. Or might they be fitting Ti rear triangles for the time being? Seems the only reason why it'd get such a big weight reduction... Just trying to guess what's going on, nothing makes sense atm.
Thanks Pam and Gilbert, I wish your comment was on the top. The website is wildly inconsistent Pricing wise I agree and I wrote it here before on the channel, that this is a pure play on revenue. I am sure they have a few 6 speeds rolling around, but they could have used those in the electric c-line as the gear range isn‘t exactly needed with electric assist. They could have introduced a 6 speed b-line and upgraded the c-line. They could have left the t-line hub less as I don‘t know how to feel about using a 600g hub on a bike that is otherwise tuned to weight saving, leaving more new hubs for a c-line 12 speed But no, there was a conscious choice to keep the volume model a little worse off, to push the premium models. It is all understandable, but it feels disingenuous hearing butler-adams talking about getting people on bikes or that the bikes are upgradable (talking about a „fictional“ lighter front wheel)
Brompton's weights are often wrong by up to nearly a pound in their favor. I contacted them directly and was given the runaround. Weight is everything when you carry your bike. I love my Brompton, sure would be nice if I could trust the company that builds them.
I think that’s fair. I personally think the 3 speed is great and would be a great entry line as it’s already being sold. Mainly cause I could almost guarantee the A line requires minimum maintenance.
On the electric version, the difference between C & P is verry much limited to the titanium rear triangle. However, on a standard bike, the P line will remain an interesting offer for many even after 12 speed become the standard for C line explore. Think of it as the std vs superlight version back in the days. The main reasion I can see for the delayed adoption of the 12 speed setup on the C line is the current part stock level. The current C Line rear triangle use a single screw mount for the chain pusher. The P line (4 speed) derailleur require the updated rear triangle design (advanced). This change require significant change to the manifacturing; jigs replacement or modification, training and inventory build up. It will likely be timed with a "new" model and color release. My prediction is that the availability of a steel rear triangle sporting the 4 speed derailleur will negate the advantage of the electric P line. We will have a choice of 4 or 12 speed electric (Steel). The C line will see the 2 speed being remplaced by 4, and the 6 speed being replaced by 12, just as we witnessed with the P line. The C Utility will remain unchanged, but likely sport the new steel "advanced" rear triangle in the near future. A line will likely keep the legacy rear triangle until stock run out. Just my opinion. We will see how that all play out in the upcoming months!
I do completely agree with this and it only came to my head yesterday that the stock levels would be a reason also for the delay. No idea how many bikes they have pre-made but as you say would require a phased roll out
Long live the simple 3 speed. I have what used to be called an M3L (I have a rack I put on for my bike tours). If I do any upgrading it will be for one of the other hubs - a 5 or 8, or an 11 or eventually a Rohlhoff. I use my bike most days all year round and in all weathers, I don’t care about a kilo or more weight, I need a bike which works without being cleaned every week. My M3L can go months without cleaning and it cheerfully gets on with it.
personally I think the 6 speed is way better than the this new 12 speed. Its simpler, easier to understand and use the shifting, and the derailleur tensioner is much higher off the ground, not attracting as much road dirt and junk as this new 12 speed does. The 6 speed has been around for decades tried and trued and more than enough gears for most everybody. Only sheep would rush now to buy this new unproven and overly complicated 12 speed. The wise will stick to what tried and true.
I agree. Being a bear of little brain, I'm happy with the + and - on the left shifter (+ hub). Any more than that, and I'm not going to be enjoying the scenery going by!
Shaking my head if this is real. First time I hear about this. I swear by my 6-speed and especially the hub. Shifting gears while you are standing still is a massive massive advantage. If they do this I will probably never buy a Brompton again. Well I have 2 so I should be ok till I am no more on this planet.
Now you might have a point with the mechanics. However I disagree with the shifting - look at bromptons gear range chart. If you want you can use the 12 speed exactly like a 6 speed, just you stay in cog 2 and 3. So you have the same and more. Also everybody was able to shoft the 3by7s in the 90s.
I have a 6 speed (standard gear ratio) Brompton & it gets me up steep climbs, plus on a downhill (or with the wind behind me on the flat) I find 6th a big enough gear to get some speed up. I guess if I was touring with a fully laden bike I would want a lower gear for hill climbing, but I use my 18 speed hybrid with panniers for that kind of riding.
picking the right bike for the right job makes perfect sense. Maybe one day I'll decided to enter bike events on my lovely carbon bike rather than a 4 speed brompton 🤣
I switched out my sprocket for a H&H 40/44t BCD130 and use mine for all conditions. I've done rides over 400 miles through the steep climbs of Cinque Terre with a 35L dry bag at 25lb on the back and it was great.
In my case I would miss the 6-speed very much. Ok, I do have a 6-speed. Which is all I need, doing trips up to 100km, up and down in Austria. Yes, the country with a view hills and mountains. The 12-speed brings not much on the lower end. But changing gears could be not a great fun when constantly using (in case of bad luck) gears inbetween the 3 ranges of the internal hub. 2 or 3 gears up and down on the left side instead of just 1 up and down in case of the 6 speed.
If absolutely feeling a - need for a 12 speed Brompton, it is easy to add a double ring in front, on a 6 speed. But honestly, in mostly "flat" Denmark (🤣) I hardly ever find use for my low, 3 gears, as I find that being able to walk faster than riding my bike, is at most, funny! Finn. Denmark
As said many times now I don’t know who has been crying out for twelve speed because the people I talk with here in the UK , Japan, Thailand, Korea, Singapore, Hong Kong, Indonesia all are hoping for a belt drive system, so i don’t know who Brompton are taking with unless they have lots of mirrors in the factory, I have been asked those who have a six speed already is there going to be a kit to be able to turn their six speed into a twelve speed without purchasing a new bike?
Different rear triangle, rear wheel, shifter, derailler. It would not be economically viable to do. However, for a 4 speed to upgrade to 12 is quite easy. 6 Speed is still very much useable, but next bike will either be a 4 or 12 speed in my case. As for where Brompton get the cues about what riders want, It is mostly done over email communication with registered bike owner, under the form of surveys and feedback request. I suspect we are more likely to see disc before a belt - and I highly doubt disc are about to hit the shelves.
@@samuelbreton9061 So I’m talking with 7 countries all of which their groups have a massive amount of members and all have mentioned belt drives yet Brompton have done a survey on line = wow, obviously I’ve missed something when you said rear wheel would have to be changed in regards to the 12 speed, when you think the six speed already has the hub drive is it that they have changed the hub drive also ? What am I missing? Are they using the rear triangle angle as on the P &T design but in steel rather than titanium for those which are not P &T .
Many years ago I had a Chinese Copy of an English, Triangle Bike, named a "folding" bike, with a "Belt Drive" 🙄! Who at their right mind want a Belt Drive?? It was very heavy to use/ride and I would prefer to use an ordinary chain at - any time! Besides it was like riding a slightly trained Jellyfish! Finn. Denmark
@@finncarlbomholtsrensen1188 things have moved on , every manufacturer has seen an increase over the last five years of more belt drive systems compared to chains, touring, electric, mountain, you really need to look at Rolloff 14 speed or at least test ride you will soon change your mind , but you have a company in Denmark that have good systems known for belt drive also = a very good company it is with their belt drive.
I've been the happy owner of a C line explore 6-speed for some time now, and I promise you that I would have shifted to the 12-speed version of the same, but the electric engine adds too much weight if you're a commuter who needs to carry his bike into public transport. I don't want electric assistance if I have 12 gears. That's me, of course, but as long as I'm in good health (I'm turning 65 in 6 weeks), I'll choose the muscular way. No blame of course on those who prefer or need the electric assistance: biking is freedom, so if you like it or need it, it's OK with me. Those I'm blaming are the executives at Brompton who don't cater for my tastes, and therefore won't have more of my cash until they provide the C Explore (muscular version) as a 12-gear bike. I'm going to go on riding my 6-gear and live happily ever after with my trusty speed. :D
Great input and thank you for sharing. 200% agree on the weight side of things. Honestly even getting the roller rack for my P line made a massive difference for just being practical.
This did dawn on me after the video but at the same time Brompton would have knew about the 12speed at least a year ago so the could have slowed down production on the C line 🤷🏻♂️
@@TheBromptonGuy I thought when the A line predecessor (I’ve forgotten the make) was using up old stock. Are they really making more old style handlebars and stuff? Or do Brompton just have huge stocks of everything?
...6S was the golden compromise between flexibility, simplicity and reliability. The 12S offer more, definitely for the none-electric versions, but not free of issues: apart from the unnecessary overlapping of gear ratios, the derailler is much more complex and sensitive! It seems to me that the 6S could indeed have been more ideal for the electric versions, but they are obviously phasing it out!
I suspect they are struggling, there are plenty of alternatives in the folding bike world and in the UK you can take a folding bike with up to 20 inch wheels on the trains as baggage.
I think their sales numbers are still very strong but agree I suspect they are playing it caution both in the market and what new innovations they attempt to bring out. It's always been a slow burn company but I fear the lack of innovation will harm them long term
I own the C-line 6 speed and a S6L. On the electric, because I always use some kind of assistance, I can push a higher gear more consistently and I'm less picky about gear selection. On the regular 6 speed, I wish I had the 12 speed gearing which gives a larger range and more gears in the middle range to select from. The e-Brompton is already too expensive, and I'm not really sure I like to pay even more money to get the 12 speed version over the 6 speed. I do agree it wouldn't make much sense to keep the 6 speed as a SKU anymore, but personally I like my 6 speed Electric and I'm glad I bought one over the 12 speed.
Thank you for the comment. The electric is the next Brompton I need to get once I get money and thinking i'll get a second hand 4 speed p line electric. Thinking for me with my currently level of fitness should make a good touring bike.
Brompton is in shambles. I would never buy an absurd 12 speed with half the gears being redundant. Everytime you shift is like solving a trigonometry problem on a scientific calculator.
😁. If I had one I think I would see it/use it as a 4 speed with a high and low range of 4 gears, that's the simplest way I can think of how to use the 12 speed. If I remember correctly when the hub is in gear 2 the range is the same as a 4 speed Brompton, so internal hub gear 1 or 3 would just shift the range up or down. Without having ridden one I can't imagine rowing up and down all the gears as you might do on a six speed as that would indeed be complicated and as you said, some of the gears are redundant/overlap on the 12 speed. I used both a 4 speed and old 6 speed recently and I prefer the range the 6 speed offers but it also feels much more mechanical and takes a bit of getting used to again after using a 4 speed for a while. Shame limited to 4 derailleur gears as 7 or 8 would be great and avoiding the use of a heavy internal hub
Another great video. I have a 3 hub gear (technically 6 because of the mountain drive, which I never use) and a 6-gear electric. The former is my everyday commuter, and the latter is for those days when I may need the support on that steep incline going home. I noticed, riding the 6-hear without support, I am faster than on my 3 gear, despite the extra weight. I have not done the calculation, but the magic must happen somewhere between the equivalent gear ratio between gear 2 and 3 on the 3 gear. If I ever bought another electric, I would pick 1 gear for simplicity. Non-electric, 3 gear hub.
lol the magic sauce that we can never quite understand but know it’s something. I would agree on a 1 gear electric makes sense. Blew my mind when I seen a 12 speed
I bought a 6-speed and learned to hate it. Having to shift both levers every other time is just irritating. I got an 8-speed hub kit from Kinetics, much more useful.
on the electrics, i don't get the weight advantage selling - how many steps am i carrying the bike? or boots of cars/busses am i lifting the bike on/off? how much faster will i get about my day with the lighter weight? how much range will i gain with motor and battery being the same with the lighter weight? the selling strategy doesn't make sense to me.
I just want a reliable folding commuter. Love my 6speed but on rainy days the +/- derailleur gunks up with grime and after about 6km the +/- does not work reliably and after 7 km its hub gears only until I go over the derailleur system after its dried up with a toothbrush then its fine until next rainy day. Thinking about replacing the BWR hub with a standard 3 gear hub.
Ensure you take appart the chain pusher assembly, and clean to remove any oil and gunk. The chain pusher might become difficult to operate in extremly muddy environment, but usually a squirt from your water bottle should suffice to get it back to life. Oil and grease between the chain pusher and bushing can capture grit. On reassembly, ensure that the chain pusher, spring and cable can move smoothly, without binding.
I do completely agree with this!! Recently been committing in bad weather and the derailleur is just that little bit trash. Still find cable tension issues as always lol
@@TheBromptonGuy My old VW Golf I. had an item rolling on the band from my Generator (Oil Pressure?), so when meeting a large puddle it starting howling and failing, till dry again! I then found a rather solid container from plastic and made a cover below the band, and it never failed or gave warning light again! You can't make something similar on the Changer, to protect against mud and water from below? Finn. Denmark
Yeah that‘s the difference between the bikes. But there are clearly mistakes on their website. On the p-line the hub (different 4 to 12 speed) is 600g / on the c-line electric its 1700g and on the p-line electric its 400g. My guess is the c-line electric 4 speed is actually 16.6 kg, giving the p version a good kilogramm advantage
Other manufacturers have been making folding bikes with fragile, exposed, dirt-attracting rear mechs for years. Now Brompton follow suit with a choice of narrow-range 4 speed, or a hybrid hub/rear clanger. More points of failure? Progress? Not for me
I have a T line, and I've been wondering if I would've gone for the 12 speed version had it been available at the time... I'm honestly not sure, I've come to like the 4 speed T line, it just drives so fast and is so light, even after changing the front wheel for one with a son dynamo hub and always carrying a spare tube and pump. Might still "upgrade" in the future to the 12 speed, I suspect buying the hub off ebay will likely be a 200ish EUR ordeal, if I don't like it I can always go back...
Hi Dave, I would love the C-line as a 12 speed, but what I want to know is will Brompton offer a upgrade option for current C-line owners and how much it would cost? I am not bothered by the weight gains as a commuter I want Speed!!!
Thanks for the comment. I would doubt it cause it would require a rear triangle also so the cost would be high for a c line user. I’ve watched the CEO talk a lot about offering upgrades rather than changing bikes but not seen any evidence of him backing this up.
@@TheBromptonGuy yeah I popped into the Brompton shop ad they confirmed that they p Would have to change the rear triangle. I saw the 12 speed Ti and my word it is so light. They only had 2 of them in the shop and said they are selling almost as fast as they are getting them in. Looks like I am going to have to start saving up, but in the mean time I am going to gat a 54 front chainring and possibly see if I can get athe 13 tooth rear cog swapped out for the 11. I love in a relatively flat part of London and I want speed to shorten my commute times. Hopefully this will be possible
Always possible but I would be dubious. I reckon the other problem would be the amount of stock already made of the 6 speed c line. Cause if they discontinued it they would need to reduce its price to get rid of the backlog.
If you don’t need 12 gears then you’re not losing 6, simply idiotic. The BWR serves me very well, I don’t need my gears to be any closer or further apart, a lower 1st would be useful as I don’t really use 6th, simply fixed by swapping to a 36T chainset. If this comes to the C-Line they will lose sales from the core riders (loyalists) who’d recommend a BWR to any prospective new rider. As others have said it’s simple, reliable and easy to fix. The under bar shifters aren’t as reliable as my ‘rabbit ear’ shifters, the new derailleur is fiddly to keep set correctly. Riders want simplicity not faff. Brompton going down the ‘more gears is better’ route is taking them away from their decades-long mantra of reliable all-weather folding bikes. Just checked my 44T 16/13 gear range vs the 12 speed 50T: Using just my 16T rear, my 1st (28.2”), 3rd (44.2”) & 5th (69.3”) which are my most used gears, vs the first three gears on the 18T rear = 1st (28.5”), 3rd (44.6”) & 5th (70”). Near identical as makes no difference. I’m used to the gaps and I don’t need multiple in-fill gears especially the pointless overlaps (4th to 5th & 8th to 9th) = 4 useless gears IMO.
Glad you are happy with what you have. Of course, there are others who live in different terrain, have different needs, and want what the 12 speed offers...better hill climbing at one end plus better speed at the other end. And I bet Brompton is not deciding on product lines based soley on what you want or need.
I would just like the derailleur on my C line Explore 6 speed to work more reliably, is the 4 speed derailleur a proper derailleur or just the mickey mouse push device on the 2 sprocket ?
On my SuperlightM6LXBrompton I had bought a metal tensioner, which didn't fit in length, and I have had several, also with two holes for the axle, of which none fit. I did find one then with the same length, which I now use, but with plastic wheels, for less noise! Finn. Denmark
How long do you think it will take for them to introduce the 12 speed c line? I like the bike a lot but love hill climbs too, I'm starting to think I won't be an owner of a Brompton
I had, and lately, privately sold a Makita Brand, ½ folder using two Makita Tool batteries for extra power when riding! It was, extremely heavy and its degree of Power assist/duration could be adjusted in steps on the handlebar! I could have, but never brought extra batteries for a "longer ride" than the rather small duration on the first set, and it was hard riding home - without any assist, as on/in any EV! I soon found it rather "useless" and I like being able to ride my bike with just my own, lack of power, on a for now down to 8,5 kilo and also much modified and former/lighter than "Superlight", 😄😁Brompton. And still with its now, also much lighter than the Original, "titanium stays", mudguards, as a "Rainy Dane" (The clamps holding those, and the mudguards on the frame, has been made from absolutely "Heavy Metal" (Uranium))? But they are easily to be found in lighter versions from Carbon and Alu, of course from the main Brompton Accessories Suppliers in China, Taiwan and Korea, where Brompton Copies are made in extreme and also - sadly better versions, than the original! So I have never been able to experience the infamous, "Brompton Stripe" up my back, as a pure ride in rain is very unpleasant in itself, so I definitely don't need an extra, wet "attack" from the back, for a few gram less weight!! Finn. Denmark
Brompton continues to make decisions on what's best for Brompton not what their customers want. I got a M6L and while I appreciate the 6 gears over a 3 speed the hub + derailleur system is a complete bodge. 99% of problems I have with the bike is due to the derailleur. It's a complete hack because they weren't willing to buy a 6-speed hub and doesn't even give you proper gear ratios. The funny thing is over in Asia they are building Brompton clones using the original tooling and fitting them with 6, 12 or even greater hubs. No derailleurs in sight. Brompton could do this, making our bikes simpler and lighter but then this doesn't benefit their bottom line as they don't want to pay for the hubs so screw us with these heavy complicated half baked derailleurs and instead bring out a different colour Brompton every 2 months. The CEO needs removing ASAP and a new engineering based management team put in place. It's a real shame no-one in the UK or Europe has been willing to fight them on their expired patent and bring out bikes people actually want at sensible prices.
@@Budguy98 that’s true in a sense. But if I had many hills for example I would adjust my front chainring to match. Even now I’ve seen 35 gear brompton. Yup 35. 5 speed hub with 7 external cogs. I ran it through a gear calculator and much overlap. Even the 12 speed has multiple overlap so it’s actually 8 speed if I recall correctly. So for example if you’re not trying to do more than 40+ km/h which not a lot of people can even attain, you could just shift the 6 speed range over to the hill climbing range.
@@SingaporeUntold I agree: as I'm considering some short touring, I think I will change my 50-cog chainring for a 44 one to help with hills and luggage-weight.
The C-Line 6 Speed is on life support and will eventually go the way of the 6 Speed Electric, superseded by the 12 speed drive train. Manufacturing wise, it makes sense (common BWR hub/rear wheel assembly, common rear steel triangle).
Meanwhile, as you suggested, those eager for an “acoustic” 12 speed (early adopters) will have to bite the bullet and go for a P (or T) Line (thus increasing Brompton’s 2024 revenue).
As for the weights listed on the Brompton site, we are suspicious. Some don’t make sense, ex.: why is the difference between the P-Line 4 and 12 speed shown as 0.5Kg while the difference between the T-Line 4 and 12 speed is 0.8Kg?
Might they be fitting back the light wheels but only on the 12 speed to make for the difference? Brompton change so much their specs, specially due to (or excused on behalf of) manufacturing shortages, that at this point I would believe anything. They do some weird stuff. We need you and/or brilliantbikes to tell us the truth on the 2024 line up, it's a mess.
Also, C line electric has gotten lighter while also getting the new rear triangle, but made of steel afaik. Or might they be fitting Ti rear triangles for the time being? Seems the only reason why it'd get such a big weight reduction...
Just trying to guess what's going on, nothing makes sense atm.
Thanks Pam and Gilbert, I wish your comment was on the top. The website is wildly inconsistent
Pricing wise I agree and I wrote it here before on the channel, that this is a pure play on revenue.
I am sure they have a few 6 speeds rolling around, but they could have used those in the electric c-line as the gear range isn‘t exactly needed with electric assist. They could have introduced a 6 speed b-line and upgraded the c-line. They could have left the t-line hub less as I don‘t know how to feel about using a 600g hub on a bike that is otherwise tuned to weight saving, leaving more new hubs for a c-line 12 speed
But no, there was a conscious choice to keep the volume model a little worse off, to push the premium models.
It is all understandable, but it feels disingenuous hearing butler-adams talking about getting people on bikes or that the bikes are upgradable (talking about a „fictional“ lighter front wheel)
I shall pin this as requested 😁
Brompton's weights are often wrong by up to nearly a pound in their favor. I contacted them directly and was given the runaround. Weight is everything when you carry your bike. I love my Brompton, sure would be nice if I could trust the company that builds them.
I think the 6-speed is the optimum basic Brompton, meaning it would be a mistake for Brompton to drop it.
I think that’s fair. I personally think the 3 speed is great and would be a great entry line as it’s already being sold. Mainly cause I could almost guarantee the A line requires minimum maintenance.
@@TheBromptonGuyc line gets the job done 3 can leave you short
6 makes sense it’s a simple set up that has stood the test of time
On the electric version, the difference between C & P is verry much limited to the titanium rear triangle. However, on a standard bike, the P line will remain an interesting offer for many even after 12 speed become the standard for C line explore. Think of it as the std vs superlight version back in the days. The main reasion I can see for the delayed adoption of the 12 speed setup on the C line is the current part stock level. The current C Line rear triangle use a single screw mount for the chain pusher. The P line (4 speed) derailleur require the updated rear triangle design (advanced). This change require significant change to the manifacturing; jigs replacement or modification, training and inventory build up. It will likely be timed with a "new" model and color release. My prediction is that the availability of a steel rear triangle sporting the 4 speed derailleur will negate the advantage of the electric P line. We will have a choice of 4 or 12 speed electric (Steel). The C line will see the 2 speed being remplaced by 4, and the 6 speed being replaced by 12, just as we witnessed with the P line. The C Utility will remain unchanged, but likely sport the new steel "advanced" rear triangle in the near future. A line will likely keep the legacy rear triangle until stock run out. Just my opinion. We will see how that all play out in the upcoming months!
I do completely agree with this and it only came to my head yesterday that the stock levels would be a reason also for the delay. No idea how many bikes they have pre-made but as you say would require a phased roll out
Long live the simple 3 speed. I have what used to be called an M3L (I have a rack I put on for my bike tours). If I do any upgrading it will be for one of the other hubs - a 5 or 8, or an 11 or eventually a Rohlhoff. I use my bike most days all year round and in all weathers, I don’t care about a kilo or more weight, I need a bike which works without being cleaned every week. My M3L can go months without cleaning and it cheerfully gets on with it.
There is a 5 speed (and I believe 8 speed) from sturmey archer, which I find interesting
3 speed is only available as the A-line with old parts now.
Thanks for sharing your experience. The Rohloff is just the ultimate dream hub
personally I think the 6 speed is way better than the this new 12 speed. Its simpler, easier to understand and use the shifting, and the derailleur tensioner is much higher off the ground, not attracting as much road dirt and junk as this new 12 speed does. The 6 speed has been around for decades tried and trued and more than enough gears for most everybody. Only sheep would rush now to buy this new unproven and overly complicated 12 speed. The wise will stick to what tried and true.
The 6 speed is a little more finicky over my 3 speed. I would think the 12 speed would need more tuning.
I agree. Being a bear of little brain, I'm happy with the + and - on the left shifter (+ hub). Any more than that, and I'm not going to be enjoying the scenery going by!
Shaking my head if this is real. First time I hear about this. I swear by my 6-speed and especially the hub. Shifting gears while you are standing still is a massive massive advantage. If they do this I will probably never buy a Brompton again. Well I have 2 so I should be ok till I am no more on this planet.
Now you might have a point with the mechanics. However I disagree with the shifting - look at bromptons gear range chart. If you want you can use the 12 speed exactly like a 6 speed, just you stay in cog 2 and 3. So you have the same and more. Also everybody was able to shoft the 3by7s in the 90s.
I'm satisfied with my two 6-speed- Bromptons for bike tour
I have a 6 speed (standard gear ratio) Brompton & it gets me up steep climbs, plus on a downhill (or with the wind behind me on the flat) I find 6th a big enough gear to get some speed up. I guess if I was touring with a fully laden bike I would want a lower gear for hill climbing, but I use my 18 speed hybrid with panniers for that kind of riding.
picking the right bike for the right job makes perfect sense. Maybe one day I'll decided to enter bike events on my lovely carbon bike rather than a 4 speed brompton 🤣
I switched out my sprocket for a H&H 40/44t BCD130 and use mine for all conditions. I've done rides over 400 miles through the steep climbs of Cinque Terre with a 35L dry bag at 25lb on the back and it was great.
In my case I would miss the 6-speed very much. Ok, I do have a 6-speed. Which is all I need, doing trips up to 100km, up and down in Austria. Yes, the country with a view hills and mountains.
The 12-speed brings not much on the lower end. But changing gears could be not a great fun when constantly using (in case of bad luck) gears inbetween the 3 ranges of the internal hub. 2 or 3 gears up and down on the left side instead of just 1 up and down in case of the 6 speed.
If absolutely feeling a - need for a 12 speed Brompton, it is easy to add a double ring in front, on a 6 speed. But honestly, in mostly "flat" Denmark (🤣) I hardly ever find use for my low, 3 gears, as I find that being able to walk faster than riding my bike, is at most, funny! Finn. Denmark
Thanks for the input my friend and completely agree with your points
As said many times now I don’t know who has been crying out for twelve speed because the people I talk with here in the UK , Japan, Thailand, Korea, Singapore, Hong Kong, Indonesia all are hoping for a belt drive system, so i don’t know who Brompton are taking with unless they have lots of mirrors in the factory, I have been asked those who have a six speed already is there going to be a kit to be able to turn their six speed into a twelve speed without purchasing a new bike?
Different rear triangle, rear wheel, shifter, derailler. It would not be economically viable to do. However, for a 4 speed to upgrade to 12 is quite easy. 6 Speed is still very much useable, but next bike will either be a 4 or 12 speed in my case. As for where Brompton get the cues about what riders want, It is mostly done over email communication with registered bike owner, under the form of surveys and feedback request. I suspect we are more likely to see disc before a belt - and I highly doubt disc are about to hit the shelves.
@@samuelbreton9061 So I’m talking with 7 countries all of which their groups have a massive amount of members and all have mentioned belt drives yet Brompton have done a survey on line = wow, obviously I’ve missed something when you said rear wheel would have to be changed in regards to the 12 speed, when you think the six speed already has the hub drive is it that they have changed the hub drive also ? What am I missing? Are they using the rear triangle angle as on the P &T design but in steel rather than titanium for those which are not P &T .
Many years ago I had a Chinese Copy of an English, Triangle Bike, named a "folding" bike, with a "Belt Drive" 🙄! Who at their right mind want a Belt Drive?? It was very heavy to use/ride and I would prefer to use an ordinary chain at - any time!
Besides it was like riding a slightly trained Jellyfish! Finn. Denmark
Easy! Just add an extra chain wheel in front!
@@finncarlbomholtsrensen1188 things have moved on , every manufacturer has seen an increase over the last five years of more belt drive systems compared to chains, touring, electric, mountain, you really need to look at Rolloff 14 speed or at least test ride you will soon change your mind , but you have a company in Denmark that have good systems known for belt drive also = a very good company it is with their belt drive.
I'll join Brompton crew when they introduce the C line 12 speed, the other 12 speed prices are a bit ridiculous
I completely agree on the price it really isn't entry line in anyway....
I've been the happy owner of a C line explore 6-speed for some time now, and I promise you that I would have shifted to the 12-speed version of the same, but the electric engine adds too much weight if you're a commuter who needs to carry his bike into public transport. I don't want electric assistance if I have 12 gears. That's me, of course, but as long as I'm in good health (I'm turning 65 in 6 weeks), I'll choose the muscular way.
No blame of course on those who prefer or need the electric assistance: biking is freedom, so if you like it or need it, it's OK with me. Those I'm blaming are the executives at Brompton who don't cater for my tastes, and therefore won't have more of my cash until they provide the C Explore (muscular version) as a 12-gear bike. I'm going to go on riding my 6-gear and live happily ever after with my trusty speed. :D
Great input and thank you for sharing. 200% agree on the weight side of things. Honestly even getting the roller rack for my P line made a massive difference for just being practical.
Don’t you think the ‘delayed release’ of the 12 speed C Line might be more to do with using up existing stock of 6 speed hubs?
This did dawn on me after the video but at the same time Brompton would have knew about the 12speed at least a year ago so the could have slowed down production on the C line 🤷🏻♂️
@@TheBromptonGuy I thought when the A line predecessor (I’ve forgotten the make) was using up old stock. Are they really making more old style handlebars and stuff? Or do Brompton just have huge stocks of everything?
...6S was the golden compromise between flexibility, simplicity and reliability. The 12S offer more, definitely for the none-electric versions, but not free of issues: apart from the unnecessary overlapping of gear ratios, the derailler is much more complex and sensitive! It seems to me that the 6S could indeed have been more ideal for the electric versions, but they are obviously phasing it out!
I suspect they are struggling, there are plenty of alternatives in the folding bike world and in the UK you can take a folding bike with up to 20 inch wheels on the trains as baggage.
I think their sales numbers are still very strong but agree I suspect they are playing it caution both in the market and what new innovations they attempt to bring out. It's always been a slow burn company but I fear the lack of innovation will harm them long term
5:00 The electric P line has still front fork, the same of the electric C line.
Solid point and my bad... Forgot they need the reinforcement for the motor
I own the C-line 6 speed and a S6L. On the electric, because I always use some kind of assistance, I can push a higher gear more consistently and I'm less picky about gear selection. On the regular 6 speed, I wish I had the 12 speed gearing which gives a larger range and more gears in the middle range to select from. The e-Brompton is already too expensive, and I'm not really sure I like to pay even more money to get the 12 speed version over the 6 speed. I do agree it wouldn't make much sense to keep the 6 speed as a SKU anymore, but personally I like my 6 speed Electric and I'm glad I bought one over the 12 speed.
Thank you for the comment. The electric is the next Brompton I need to get once I get money and thinking i'll get a second hand 4 speed p line electric. Thinking for me with my currently level of fitness should make a good touring bike.
Brompton is in shambles. I would never buy an absurd 12 speed with half the gears being redundant. Everytime you shift is like solving a trigonometry problem on a scientific calculator.
lmao 🤣 I love this comment! Brilliant
@@TheBromptonGuy It's true. My c line 2 speed has been a 1 speed after one month. Their 'gearing' is a pile of non working long visits to the toilet.
😁. If I had one I think I would see it/use it as a 4 speed with a high and low range of 4 gears, that's the simplest way I can think of how to use the 12 speed. If I remember correctly when the hub is in gear 2 the range is the same as a 4 speed Brompton, so internal hub gear 1 or 3 would just shift the range up or down. Without having ridden one I can't imagine rowing up and down all the gears as you might do on a six speed as that would indeed be complicated and as you said, some of the gears are redundant/overlap on the 12 speed.
I used both a 4 speed and old 6 speed recently and I prefer the range the 6 speed offers but it also feels much more mechanical and takes a bit of getting used to again after using a 4 speed for a while. Shame limited to 4 derailleur gears as 7 or 8 would be great and avoiding the use of a heavy internal hub
Another great video. I have a 3 hub gear (technically 6 because of the mountain drive, which I never use) and a 6-gear electric. The former is my everyday commuter, and the latter is for those days when I may need the support on that steep incline going home. I noticed, riding the 6-hear without support, I am faster than on my 3 gear, despite the extra weight. I have not done the calculation, but the magic must happen somewhere between the equivalent gear ratio between gear 2 and 3 on the 3 gear. If I ever bought another electric, I would pick 1 gear for simplicity. Non-electric, 3 gear hub.
lol the magic sauce that we can never quite understand but know it’s something. I would agree on a 1 gear electric makes sense. Blew my mind when I seen a 12 speed
I bought a 6-speed and learned to hate it. Having to shift both levers every other time is just irritating. I got an 8-speed hub kit from Kinetics, much more useful.
Complete agree! I honestly wonder if Brompton look at Kinetics mods and are just like "They suck" lol
on the electrics, i don't get the weight advantage selling - how many steps am i carrying the bike? or boots of cars/busses am i lifting the bike on/off? how much faster will i get about my day with the lighter weight? how much range will i gain with motor and battery being the same with the lighter weight? the selling strategy doesn't make sense to me.
I am a big Brompton guy fan
M6L Black frame.
✌🏻🧔🏻♂️✌🏻
Thank you for the support! When I did brompton bike hire I got a M6L Black and was a wonderful bike, however it was a brand new 2023 model also.
I just want a reliable folding commuter. Love my 6speed but on rainy days the +/- derailleur gunks up with grime and after about 6km the +/- does not work reliably and after 7 km its hub gears only until I go over the derailleur system after its dried up with a toothbrush then its fine until next rainy day. Thinking about replacing the BWR hub with a standard 3 gear hub.
Ensure you take appart the chain pusher assembly, and clean to remove any oil and gunk. The chain pusher might become difficult to operate in extremly muddy environment, but usually a squirt from your water bottle should suffice to get it back to life. Oil and grease between the chain pusher and bushing can capture grit. On reassembly, ensure that the chain pusher, spring and cable can move smoothly, without binding.
I do completely agree with this!! Recently been committing in bad weather and the derailleur is just that little bit trash. Still find cable tension issues as always lol
@@TheBromptonGuy My old VW Golf I. had an item rolling on the band from my Generator (Oil Pressure?), so when meeting a large puddle it starting howling and failing, till dry again! I then found a rather solid container from plastic and made a cover below the band, and it never failed or gave warning light again! You can't make something similar on the Changer, to protect against mud and water from below? Finn. Denmark
I've worked it out I think! The only difference is the p line electric has ti rear triangle; they both have reinforced steel forks.
Yeah that‘s the difference between the bikes. But there are clearly mistakes on their website. On the p-line the hub (different 4 to 12 speed) is 600g / on the c-line electric its 1700g and on the p-line electric its 400g. My guess is the c-line electric 4 speed is actually 16.6 kg, giving the p version a good kilogramm advantage
I agree with this!!
Rear suspension block also 🤪
Other manufacturers have been making folding bikes with fragile, exposed, dirt-attracting rear mechs for years. Now Brompton follow suit with a choice of narrow-range 4 speed, or a hybrid hub/rear clanger. More points of failure? Progress? Not for me
I have to agree! My p line mech is about as reliable as paper bag in the rain.
I have a T line, and I've been wondering if I would've gone for the 12 speed version had it been available at the time... I'm honestly not sure, I've come to like the 4 speed T line, it just drives so fast and is so light, even after changing the front wheel for one with a son dynamo hub and always carrying a spare tube and pump. Might still "upgrade" in the future to the 12 speed, I suspect buying the hub off ebay will likely be a 200ish EUR ordeal, if I don't like it I can always go back...
So jealous!! crying out to test a t line. Completely agree with weight factor but I know when I one it will be the 12 speed 🫣
Hi Dave, I would love the C-line as a 12 speed, but what I want to know is will Brompton offer a upgrade option for current C-line owners and how much it would cost? I am not bothered by the weight gains as a commuter I want Speed!!!
Thanks for the comment. I would doubt it cause it would require a rear triangle also so the cost would be high for a c line user.
I’ve watched the CEO talk a lot about offering upgrades rather than changing bikes but not seen any evidence of him backing this up.
@@TheBromptonGuy yeah I popped into the Brompton shop ad they confirmed that they p
Would have to change the rear triangle. I saw the 12 speed Ti and my word it is so light. They only had 2 of them in the shop and said they are selling almost as fast as they are getting them in.
Looks like I am going to have to start saving up, but in the mean time I am going to gat a 54 front chainring and possibly see if I can get athe 13 tooth rear cog swapped out for the 11. I love in a relatively flat part of London and I want speed to shorten my commute times. Hopefully this will be possible
How is the 12 lighter than the 6? Mad
@@phillblake6829 my only word of warning here is take the weights listed on the Bromptons website with a pinch of salt
I wonder if the decision to hold off on the 12 speed for some bikes is more due to production limitations causing a need to phase in the 12 speed. 🤔
Always possible but I would be dubious. I reckon the other problem would be the amount of stock already made of the 6 speed c line. Cause if they discontinued it they would need to reduce its price to get rid of the backlog.
If you don’t need 12 gears then you’re not losing 6, simply idiotic.
The BWR serves me very well, I don’t need my gears to be any closer or further apart, a lower 1st would be useful as I don’t really use 6th, simply fixed by swapping to a 36T chainset. If this comes to the C-Line they will lose sales from the core riders (loyalists) who’d recommend a BWR to any prospective new rider. As others have said it’s simple, reliable and easy to fix. The under bar shifters aren’t as reliable as my ‘rabbit ear’ shifters, the new derailleur is fiddly to keep set correctly. Riders want simplicity not faff. Brompton going down the ‘more gears is better’ route is taking them away from their decades-long mantra of reliable all-weather folding bikes.
Just checked my 44T 16/13 gear range vs the 12 speed 50T: Using just my 16T rear, my 1st (28.2”), 3rd (44.2”) & 5th (69.3”) which are my most used gears, vs the first three gears on the 18T rear = 1st (28.5”), 3rd (44.6”) & 5th (70”). Near identical as makes no difference. I’m used to the gaps and I don’t need multiple in-fill gears especially the pointless overlaps (4th to 5th & 8th to 9th) = 4 useless gears IMO.
Glad you are happy with what you have. Of course, there are others who live in different terrain, have different needs, and want what the 12 speed offers...better hill climbing at one end plus better speed at the other end.
And I bet Brompton is not deciding on product lines based soley on what you want or need.
Thank you for the input, very good points and may help people out to understand what is best suited for them.
I would just like the derailleur on my C line Explore 6 speed to work more reliably, is the 4 speed derailleur a proper derailleur or just the mickey mouse push device on the 2 sprocket ?
The jockey wheel at the bottom moves from left to right so it's kind of like a modified derailleur if that makes sense!
On my SuperlightM6LXBrompton I had bought a metal tensioner, which didn't fit in length, and I have had several, also with two holes for the axle, of which none fit. I did find one then with the same length, which I now use, but with plastic wheels, for less noise! Finn. Denmark
What's happening with the clones?
Unfortunately clones aren't something I track so have no idea 🤷🏻♂️
How long do you think it will take for them to introduce the 12 speed c line? I like the bike a lot but love hill climbs too, I'm starting to think I won't be an owner of a Brompton
Honestly with Bromptons rate of change I expect 2025/26
I had, and lately, privately sold a Makita Brand, ½ folder using two Makita Tool batteries for extra power when riding! It was, extremely heavy and its degree of Power assist/duration could be adjusted in steps on the handlebar!
I could have, but never brought extra batteries for a "longer ride" than the rather small duration on the first set, and it was hard riding home - without any assist, as on/in any EV!
I soon found it rather "useless" and I like being able to ride my bike with just my own, lack of power, on a for now down to 8,5 kilo and also much modified and former/lighter than "Superlight", 😄😁Brompton.
And still with its now, also much lighter than the Original, "titanium stays", mudguards, as a "Rainy Dane" (The clamps holding those, and the mudguards on the frame, has been made from absolutely "Heavy Metal" (Uranium))?
But they are easily to be found in lighter versions from Carbon and Alu, of course from the main Brompton Accessories Suppliers in China, Taiwan and Korea, where Brompton Copies are made in extreme and also - sadly better versions, than the original!
So I have never been able to experience the infamous, "Brompton Stripe" up my back, as a pure ride in rain is very unpleasant in itself, so I definitely don't need an extra, wet "attack" from the back, for a few gram less weight!!
Finn. Denmark
I am a huge Makita fan with a ton of batteries and always hoped they made more of those bikes for purchase.
As always mate great input as always. Could pick your brain for days
@@bidibee808 At least in In Denmark, they, Makita Brand bikes, are easily found, in the German Hardware Store of "Bauhaus"!
Brompton continues to make decisions on what's best for Brompton not what their customers want. I got a M6L and while I appreciate the 6 gears over a 3 speed the hub + derailleur system is a complete bodge. 99% of problems I have with the bike is due to the derailleur. It's a complete hack because they weren't willing to buy a 6-speed hub and doesn't even give you proper gear ratios.
The funny thing is over in Asia they are building Brompton clones using the original tooling and fitting them with 6, 12 or even greater hubs. No derailleurs in sight. Brompton could do this, making our bikes simpler and lighter but then this doesn't benefit their bottom line as they don't want to pay for the hubs so screw us with these heavy complicated half baked derailleurs and instead bring out a different colour Brompton every 2 months. The CEO needs removing ASAP and a new engineering based management team put in place.
It's a real shame no-one in the UK or Europe has been willing to fight them on their expired patent and bring out bikes people actually want at sensible prices.
Thank you for the input my friend
I found the Brompton gearing choices frankly absurd - I bought a Birdy with 14 speed Rohloff and it's brilliant
I think people want the 12 speed because it's the newest
or they do a lot of hill climbing
That will certainly be a factor for a few but I honestly don't think the majority of Brompton users care about the latests and greatest.
@@Budguy98 that’s true in a sense. But if I had many hills for example I would adjust my front chainring to match.
Even now I’ve seen 35 gear brompton. Yup 35. 5 speed hub with 7 external cogs. I ran it through a gear calculator and much overlap.
Even the 12 speed has multiple overlap so it’s actually 8 speed if I recall correctly.
So for example if you’re not trying to do more than 40+ km/h which not a lot of people can even attain, you could just shift the 6 speed range over to the hill climbing range.
@@SingaporeUntold I agree: as I'm considering some short touring, I think I will change my 50-cog chainring for a 44 one to help with hills and luggage-weight.
NOBODY is talking about the 3 speed hub. Why is it being discontinued?!
I don't think it is being discontinued?
Get an A Line! It features the 3 speed hub. Always.
@@ulrikezombiegans99 but it only comes in white 😔
Don't pay any attention to weights on Brompton website
lol I'm getting that vibe. I hope Brompton are aware 🫣
...itself