It's been a long time since I've seen someone so aggressively out of touch. So let me get this straight: companies keep feeding us terrible, unfinished, underdeveloped games, they keep focusing on monetization instead of making good games, they keep trying to squeeze every single cent out of us, they keep injecting their personal politics into games for no reason or benefit, and then when we dont buy those games, it's our fault?! Lady, are you insane?! Of course we are cynical... BECAUSE THEY MADE US CYNICAL, for crying out loud. And of course we criticize them, because that's what you are supposed to do! Do you suggest we say nothing when another crap game comes out?! Should we just accept that?! You think that will solve things?! My god... this video is nothing but one long tirade of ignorance...
I like the part where you fixated on one variable while the problem is complex and has been narrated into your ears. You are the very proof of what I meant in the video. Firstly, you fail to understand the difference between acceptance and indifference. Secondly, no one can make you cynical. An adult is not a child and is responsible for their choices and reactions. Lastly, the pronoun "our" includes both sides - people who are creating games and playing them. The title mentioned both parties and I spoke about them even more. Yup, I mentioned the part with corporate greed as well. Congratulations on being uneducated and rude to a stranger. The fact that you refuse to see the other sides of the problem and calling me insane and ignorant speaks volumes about your thinking abilities and manners. I suggest you have a look in a mirror and come back when you learn how to be respectful.
Gamers are not killing gaming, gaming is not dying, good games are selling in numbers and making huge profit. Small indie games with good gameplay are still the best, they come out, get gamer appreciation and makes profit. Good corporate games sell 10s of millions copies and make huge profit. It is the bad games that are dying, bad developers that are losing their jobs, bad companies losing market profit because of bad decision. Note that I said good games, a good game also comes with good business decision, for example releasing on as many platform and countries as possible at the same time. Companies that are doing PS5 exclusive and releasing games on PC after a year or releasing only in a select few countries, are not making good business decisions, so they are not good games and they fail like they should.
You see how curious this topic is. Some people thought that I accused gamers, others thought that I pointed a finger at devs. Meanwhile this video is about all of us having power and responsibility to keep the industry at a great level where profit is only one variable in the equation. It's curious how selective our minds are when we listen to other people's ideas and opinions.
I love the "polite indifference" line, I wish we saw more of it. Not rage-spitting long threads and hours long videos chewing on the same problems until engaging drops
Thanks! My TH-cam feed has been a mess for years. It's tiring 😅 I guess the only thing we can do is to find communities that appreciate games in a balanced way, showing good and bad sides and then discussing it
I agree with a lot of what you say here and my view is that this is an inevitable cycle to some degree. A game development studio will start up with people who are passionate about telling a story and making a good game, and then they will get bigger and are pressured to make more money and creativity becomes stifled. I think that if you are making a game for any other reason than to tell a good story and/or make an enjoyable game, be that money, message, demand from parent company/stockholders or anything else, it is likely that it will be a mediocre game at best and probably a bad game. However, a lot of those creative people are getting fed up with this, leaving their former studios and starting up their own studios that are now at the beginning of the cycle. So I think that there is definitely hope for the industry. I do appreciate you bringing up the problem with criticism of games. I heard an adage once that 'nothing is ever as good or as bad as people say on the Internet' because I think it has become to some degree the nature of social media to oversimplify and then inflate a value judgment to stimulate emotions and increase engagement. And on that note, I very much appreciate you making a conscious effort to keep your content and community a place of analytical thought and constructive criticism.
Thanks for joining the conversation! You have wise thoughts that make me wonder if the new studios which emerge ARE the rebirth cycle. Therefore, they are a signal that the old is dying to let the new bring what the industry needs to survive. It's a valuable detail that I accidentally missed. And thanks for seeing what kind of channel this is trying to be ❤️ It's precious!
Gaming industry has the cycle you mentioned, same was seen before in tech industry. There is another cycle “hype cycle” for investors this applies to public companies. If the true customer of the company are investors not people buying or using the products/services this is what one might get. Many corporations surf of this hype cycles and does not even create a good product/service the point it to gain momentum with buzz words, and reduce the spending when the current hype cycle dies, and preferably already then start a new one.
I participated in a gamejam where I had to create a game in a week - I did so with a friend. Having a background in web-development (a degree from like 2010, the gamejam was in 2022) and my friend doing hobby-based programming for fun, we ended up with a decent game. Our first game. It gave me perspective on the game-dev problems the industry is plagued with, because a lot of our instability in the product came from the timeframe we had to work with. But we also sat down quickly and went "what can we REALISTICALLY make?" very early in the process. With that in mind, I've started looking at games with another perspective, and it has allowed me to praise systems where relevant, but also be so extra critical of choices made within the games. Especially when it comes to anti-consumer implementations, which include time-sinks. When you know it's literally as simple as removing or adding a 0 to a cost or reward from a vendor or quest respectively, you also start burning out of said type of content faster (at least I do). It has completely shattered the illusion of "the grind" for me. It's why I've been frustrated with Veilguard's combat/rep/companion grind, because it's implemented in a way that I, an ameteur, could've done it and be like "yea that seems ok, not good, but doable", although admittedly I'd need more time than they probably spent on it haha. But on the other hand, it also makes me feel so much more frustrated on behalf of developers who care deeply for their product, because someone in management made a decision they have to live with, and we (customers) have to suffer through.
That was a cool story, thanks for sharing it! Unfortunately, I couldn't see the imperfections of DAV from your pov as you are an experienced dev, and knowing that these small things could be swiftly fixed is sad. I saw the bad sides of Veilguard as a player and the immersion breaking was one of the worst things that included writing and some game mechanics. Still, I understand that making games is hard and nobody wants to make a bad game. There are too many factors that can tie devs hands such as shareholders' demands or the beliefs of what devs consider popular or fun. At the same time, the amount of unconstructive hate the game got is unbelievable. Being in the middle of it made me think if I should continue working on this channel. Thankfully, there are many people who are respectful and don't mind talking about things they disagree with in a polite manner. Thanks for joining the conversation and being one of them!
With respect. Pleasing shareholders, lack of management accountability. The goodwill has dried up from gamers not because we don't give good feedback. It is the arrogance of management that thinks it has a hit on it's hand, regardless of feedback, within and outside of the company. I cannot appreciate Starwars Outlaws or any other mediocre experience.
I agree with you. As I said, they don't treat gamers with respect and we are wallets to the management who makes decisions. Today, this situation with bad games doesn't have the luxury of "they started it!" and it has evolved into a loop. We know that DA4 director and writers were removed from the studio. It didn't solve the problem, it removed the employees. Sadly, there will be more bad games because of the revenue mindset. Gamers didn't change anything for those who make decisions. So what can we do?
@@ImpGoosehere is my take on what can we do. 1. Do not buy games which have a lot of warning ⚠️ flags. Wait. If the game turns out to be good we can buy it later, if it turns out to be average on can wait for a deep deep sale. 2. Even though we are passionate about games, which means we might get emotional (from love to hate and everything in between), let’s try to be constructive with criticism. If there is an aspect we do not like use arguments why we do not like it. Possibly present alternative we thing might be better. (Here we can only hope for the best this will not be swiped under the rug labeled as hate which often happens) 3. If we feel tired and burned out, disconnect from social media (to avoid gaming news and discussions), make a small break from gaming and use the time to enjoy other hobbies. After that just pick up a game (maybe from the backlog) and give it a try, see if you are having fun. If so just play it, if not try another game. 4. Do not forget why you play games, what is the reason. For me it is entertainment and having fun (sometimes relaxing sometimes challenging) is what counts for me. To add to the last point more than 30 years of being a gamer and I still enjoy it. Have a nice time gaming!
6 minutes in, and I will defend customers (to a degree). The cycle in my option looks a bit differently Games comes out, done with not much passion rather from the template or a checklist which in theory should be a hit but in practice have issues with finding audience. Audience is divided between one who present their criticism (often valid well argumented) and the second part which just bash the game, with hatred (towards the product but sometimes also towards the people who made it). What happens is that all valid criticism is lost and seen as hate due to smaller but vocal minority of people who actually are spreading the hate. Since criticism is ignored, next product will not be better, and the vicious cycle repeats. I’m far from putting more blame than absolutely necessary on the customer. A market can be defined as all of the customers. As as such companies producing the games need customers more than said customers their products. Worst case scenario people might find another hobby or play old games they already own. These people will be just fine, but the gaming industry with lost sales might not be. We are seeing a lot of changes in gaming, nothing new I started playing back in ‘92 and gaming was always changing. The question is where these changes will lead us? I’m outside of main age group for gamers, and I accepted that many games might not be done with older demographic in mind. But with my library I’d drm free games I’m good even if the full industry would collapse (which of course will not happen).
Culture war, censorships, corporate interests, political divisions, etc. happened. For example, seasoned developers like Bioware have many mature and strict fans. Our demands and expectations have also matured and increased. Many of us respect our precious time and money in any release from them. We have plenty of games already. So if game developers want our money, they gotta earn it, not try to resort to the same old2 shady corporate tactics to fool teens that we have seen for almost 2 decades now. So yeah, i am glad Bioware did the purges. Perhaps something good would come out of it.
We shall see. DA4 with all those therapy chats gets into gaming history as a meme. Well deserved. Still I'm thinking how we can change the demand-market situation without constant wars on social media.
See, I don't believe the purges are going to help anything, beacause firstly, Veilguard is, if not a great game, then a perfectly good one. Obviously it could be better, but when you step back, it's not some trainwreck. I refuse to believe that making an at worst "okay" product is grounds to cost anyone their job. And secondly, I don't believe that the purges were anything to do with maintaining the quality of future games, because those purges got rid of all the veteran developers that created the games in the series everyone agrees were good. EA probably got rid of the highest-paid individuals and kept the new hires that they can charge the least or most easily take advantage of. This actually makes me think, have we ever had a situation where a developer purges a whole bunch of talent and then their next game is better as a result? I at least haven't.
@@marcomongke3116 I'm talking about people who've been there since Dragon Age origins in some form or another. And let's not forget that bioware veterans have been being laid off since before Veilguard was even released. Mary Kirby, who wrote Varric since DA2, was laid off before the game's release, as a recent example. Patrick and Karin Weekes are also both gone with this latest round. Which to me is more proof that these layoffs aren't about improving quality. And I'm not even someone who thinks "new devs=bad." I think that getting new blood into a studio is important for the studio and for the industry as a whole. And another reason I don't believe these purges will do anything for quality and will probably end up being a net negative, is that they were probably done by the same higher ups at EA who made Bioware reboot the game looooong ago to turn it into a live service game.
@velemamba260 i am aware of the layoffs that happened over the years. Regardless, the few good devs who were at Bioware still didn't deliver in the latest games. Since 2014, including Inquisition, in my opinion. While i feel somewhat saddened about Dragon Age, i am also happy that EA finally putting Bioware out of their misery of being in the state of mediocrity and shadow of its glory days. Current Bioware never listened to criticism and feedback. Since we were not allowed freely critique Dragon age or Masseffect in social media communities, some of us have no choice but to do it everywhere else. Having said that, i would still blame EA and her profit and agenda driven activists as the main culprits of chaos and corporate shenanigans.
I Agree with you completely; Games are about fun adventure and curiosity all together. It should never cater to a certain type of ideology. I have very fond memories of Assassins Creed 2, played a lot of hours exploring the world of Renaissance Italy, Meeting Leonardo as crafter, world was ripe I had fun playing for hours. playing the character Ezio entire journey was sublime. Soundtrack of Assassin creed 2 was my jam still i hear the music if get time same with Dragon age. Dragon Age Origins is similar it made me go through various emotions and experience a medieval fantasy before I ever knew there is a thing called Dark fantasy. The mature world where every worst situation boldly displayed with no handholding gave me the inspiration to write a story on my own and how the characters should be written. Games are all about coming together, making new friends exploring the world and mostly learning new things that are unknown. i do wish i would go back to good old days playing these once again.
That's just awesome! I had a great pleasure reading it and it's so cool we found each other in this community 🔥 Chatting with you during streams was really fun!
On the closing part. When you state that “corporate greed might result in you leaving this hobby”. Well even if you complete ignore big publishers, you will still have older titles to play, or a ton of indie games among which there will be a least a few each year worth playing. So this might reduce the time you spent on gaming but does not mean leaving this hobby. This to me would be the last resort, when all other alternatives failed.
Dear Important Goose, thats why i spend more time to my hobbi, what is the writing ( not in english ). And i started that fantasy world building story what is what as the Dragon age should have been in some setting (actually inspired by "how could it be perfected"). For two months now, I've only been building the world setting. Secrets, ancient origins, 16 countries, with world map, political map, coats of arms. Chronolog, ancient civilizations, civilizations before the cataclysm, and the civilization beyond the sea and its creatures, etc. It will be a series of ten books. No game can provide the same excitement and sense of achievement as discoveries, investigations, language creation, world creation, the history of relics, the origin and role of magic. Gods who are not gods, etc. Fortunately, since 2009, they have already taught how to build a world, and the chronological concept of dragon age spices it up and adds to it ( it is the least what i deserve from the game). I think it will take another month before everything is ready for writing. It's interesting, I wrote the draft of the first book 2 years ago. Based on which I continued to build the world. What has changed is that I need a separate, huge cork board to see the ancient secrets. I'm happy about the event because I'm finally spending time and energy on what I need. To create value. And to tell stories, to share, and maybe i dont waste my time with it. I will be 35 this year. And I want to leave my masterpiece behind for the next generation. I'm already moved by this. I have played my old favorite games 10-30 times. But it is a same old story, and now it is boring, and i don't care about the new ones. So for that I am grateful. I share this with you as a sign of respect. I wish you success and happiness.
Wow, that's amazing! I hope you'll find your luck, audience and remember to have fun with your writing 🥳 We never know how life will turn but planting seeds is an important journey. One day they might grow into trees...and they bear the sweet fruit of your labour! Thanks for sharing your story and for your kind words 🍀✨
Lmao, I'm ready to make an independent magazine if it brings back constructive articles. We should clarify that when I say "good", I mean balanced, exposing great sides of the genre meanwhile analysing whether the game reached the bar of excellence in this genge and for the announced age group. What do you mean by "good"?
Nah, I don't think gaming industry is dying, it actually one of the most fast growing segments of entertainment market. And grass was not greener in the past. There always were good games we still remember till this day and trash with questionable messaging (like half naked gals with gravity defying boobs jumping around for example) no one thinks about anymore in ratio of 1 to 25. Just like now for every exeptional BG3 and Elden Ring we have two dozens of AC, Fifa clones, Veilguards, Starfields and other mediocrities. There always were audacious punks swoping in with hot new things to take place of old companies already past their creative prime. Like CDPR eaten alive juggernauts of a studios like Piranha Bytes in Europe with their Witcher series, Bioware pushed away Origins games back in nineties only to be eaten now by Larian and probably their own offsprings like Archetype Entertainment (they making exodus). None of this is new. Only difference is now everything is visible, loud and in your face. You don't just play the game and discuss it with your close friends or put it away, you go online to listen thousand diffrent people yealing their opinions through various social media trashing or praising every game to high heavens, dissecting every success and failure in excruciating detail, because discourse is a buisness of it's own. All we can do is consume it all in moderation in order to not burn out. Game industry will be fine 😌
True, gaming isn’t dying...it’s just going through its midlife crisis in 4K haha. I guess my point is more about the community and how people discuss stuff. Indeed, now instead of just cringing at bad games in private, we have to watch 500-hour video essays about them and try to find an informative and decent early review. My feed is full of...well, not analytical content and it's, as you said, loud. Moderation is key… unless it’s Baldur’s Gate 3, in which case, who needs sleep? Anyway, glad to see you in the comments again! Probably I'm just being low but hopefully KCD2 will patch me well haha
I agree with a lot of what you're saying, for sure. I think both sides of the relationship have really taken a negative turn, but I do think some parties hold more responsibility than others. I think that the upper management that provides th emoney for a lot of game developers are a real root cause here. They treat the players like revenue streams, absolutely. But they also treat the devs below them in much the same way. Forcing them to accomodate unreasonable demands, work to painful deadlines and unmeetable expectations, then getting rid of them when they inevitably fail. Or in certain cases, getting rid of them even if they actually succeed. I'm not going to claim every game would suddenly become a masterpiece otherwise (that's not reasonable to want or expect) but I think that it would help. For our part as fans, I think a lot of the community takes bad games too personally. No dev ever wants to make a bad game, and making any game, even a bad one, is hard. But I see so many gamers treat a disappointing game like it's some kind of insult, and assume a degree of incompetence to the people involved, if not outright malice at times. And there's a glee people seem to take in a game's failure that I find really upsetting. Unless a game is espousing some kind of hateful philosophy or being made by someone who does, I never want a game to fail. Even when people are saying a game looks bad, I hope that it turns out good and that people enjoy it. But the stance a lot of other people take is less "I think this game will fail and here's why" and more "I think this game is going to fail and I can't wait to be right." It's like you said, people seem more excited to tear down games, and when a game comes along that they do think is good, it often feels like the first instinct is to use it as a cudgel against games that failed, as yet another way to tear down games they feel didn't measure up, when the devs behind the game probably wouldn't want that, and usually when we see different dev teams talk about each other, they're wishing each other only the best. I also think that there's a weird thing among gamers where somehow, only the best is acceptable and anyone who accepts less than the best is implicitly... less, somehow. And this plays into another issue where I feel like it's more acceptable to dislike a popular thing than it is to like an unppular thing. I'll speak from my experience. I absolutely loved Veilguard. I thought it was a great game. I've played every game in the series from origins and Veilguard is actually my favorite in the series now. I've liked each game more and Veilguard continued that trend. I wouldn't bring that up in most gaming communities for fear of being called stupid, and I just avoid discussion of it because I constantly see people casually insulting the idea that people could like it. Meanwhile, I kind of hate BG3. I've genuinely never been more disappointed by a game. It made me go back and play the first two games for the first time, and I loved those and came away thinking "wow, if I'd played these first, I'd have been even MORE disappointed in BG3." But I feel way more comfortable expressing that online because people seem more willing to engage peacibly. Not everyone, but in general I can expect less hostility and dismissiveness. Sorry that got so long-winded, this just happened to be a cross-section of a lot of thoughts I've had on this topic.
No worries, it's great that you thought about it and had some things to share. I must say that I definitely forgot to mention what you noticed (the management looks down at devs). Indeed, passion can be communicated differently and having excitement about someone failing is a disturbing tendency. It's amazing that you liked the game and I wish I could be in your boat. I guess too many things didn't click for me simply because tastes differ, though knowing that someone enjoyed it brings me peace. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, there were multiple moments that gave me food for thought 🍀✨
Nope, I haven't said a bad word about any game that didn't deserve it. It's not my job to create cozy, positive enviroment for let's say... Bioware writers. I also don't have to point out any redeeming qualities of a game if I don't like even one aspect of it. I can just express what my issue is, and if it's easily summed up in a punchline? That's fine too.
Your comments on this channel express a different view though. You call other people names when they disagree with you politely. You haven't played the Witcher 4 yet judge it by a single trailer. Bioware writers created great characters and stories before, they wrote what they were told for money and a possibility to have a job that pays the bills. Alas, that's the "snake eating its tail" situation. And that's what I'm offering to talk about, not creating any cosy spaces. You took a different angle and value from the offered thinking exercise. That's indeed fine, though a complex problem requires a complex solution. So, I agree to disagree with you here.
>I don't recall anyone disagreeing with me in any way and me calling that person names on this channel. I even went back and checked lol. I do say mean stuff but if, for example, someone reads something like "village fools on twitter" and takes it personally as if I'm talking about other commenter on youtube... that's beyond my influence 😂 >I haven't played Witcher 4 - but I've seen the trailer. It's the purpose of the trailer - to be judged by the audience, is it not? >Biowere/was former writers had been on a decline for years, where they not? They peaked long time ago, I don't believe they can or will get "it" back. No matter where they move next.
@@justaquietpeacefuldance They didn't learn from the dragon age veilguard trailer, something comes out by another company 3rd party. Not fully reflected of the product but that isn't made clear.
I don't disagree with your point. However, I don't believe this is all the developer's fault. For some companies, it's not even the developer's choice, it's the share-holders. They make the decisions for the product thinking of nothing but numbers and profit. Developers are obligated to apply these decisions breaking their spirits and creativity. This industry, like many other industries today, are all in the power of rich snobs who care only for money. Forcing companies/studios to pump out soulless trash.
Thanks for enriching this video. I definitely should have separated this part and not use an abstract "they" when it comes to studios. I agree with what you said and I'm adding a word "shareholders" to my personal dictionary 😅 English is my second language, so your help is highly appreciated. Thanks again!
It's the devs and a few investors. Everything else is just naivety and false narrative. It's not about the money, otherwise they wouldn't be doing this.
I wish it was as simple as you want it to be. I think that the issue is that the troubles in gaming are merely a reflection of an even greater tumor that exists in society, mainly in the US. (but not only) Once you reach a kind of "critical mass" as far as the gap between one side of the political spectrum and the other, when people regularly talk about committing violence and wishing ill - at that point the gap becomes almost impossible to bridge, and you simply sort of have to wait for the furor to die out, for the fire to burn itself out. Certain game developers are not interested in making games that entertain as many people as possible, respect establish lore, and tell good stories. Rather they want to make games that serve as a loudspeaker for their political opinions. They aren't interested in compromise or discussion, and aren't amenable to making peaceful gestures towards those they see as their political enemies. Of course, corporate side doesn't really care as long as they get their bag of cash. (which lately they failed to get a few times due to these mistakes and others) On the other hand, it can't be denied that some vocal voices on the gamer side are simply unreasonable, and just as extreme politically - only in the other direction. These people also aren't likely to agree to sit around a fire with their political rivals and sing songs of friendship. There are some signs that corporate is starting to see the merit in not consigning gaming to the hands of extreme political ideologues, that perhaps it would be better if such roles were more reflective of society and specifically the people who actually buy these products, but it is too early to say. Regardless, with every high-profile gaming flop, the panic of corporate grows and eventually change will become inevitable. Maybe such change will bring on its wings a new golden age for gaming. I certainly hope so.
I would not say that it's simple, but I have a desire to find the pattern or create a system in this problem. Many people recognised that being indifferent means being acceptable and/or friendly. In reality it's something similar to what happened to Unknown 9 Awakening. People were indifferent and didn't say much. The game flopped dramatically. Many gamers still don't know that it even exists. Sadly, the situation in the industry is super complex to give it an easy fix. However, we still can try to figure out multiple solutions collectively. I understand the points you mentioned and just want to make the gaming community a respected element in the system. Maybe it will never happen. Maybe we will be able to shift the narrative through constructive negotiations. Life can surprise us if we act correctly.
So I agree with you that gaming is a reflection of an even bigger issue happening in society, but I think I disagree with you in how it's manifesting in games. Firstly, I don't honestly think that most devs are "idealogues" disregarding lore and all else and demanding we side with them. That's just not been my experience. I think that the reason idealogy has gotten more explicit in games is two-fold. Firstly, there has been a growing contingent of people who consider even the presence of a non-white man in most games to be a statement of idealogy. Secondly, especially in the states there's a growing hostility to people of color, the lgbt community and women as well. Of course these two factors are fueling one another. So I think what's happening in gaming is pretty logical; we're seeing some devs react to that loud, unsubtle shift by being loud and unsubtle in return. I mean when BG1 and 2 where being made, you didn't have people yelling and complaining about the mere presence of a black character in a vageuely medieaval fantasy setting. And now we're at a point where devs don't want to be seen as "giving in" to those right wing grifters and complainers so they're less likely to pull back, and in fact are more likely to get more explicit as a statement of defiance against what seems to have become the status quo. Frankly, we're just not in an era where subtletly has as much room to breath. And personally, I actually do appreciate a game that takes a strong stance in this day and age. I don't see it as being extreme or being an idealogue. I just think that in an era where people who want an overwhelming straight, white male environment feel empowered to demand that loudly and constantly, it's no great sin for the people that want the opposite to also state that quite clearly. Maybe that might lead to some awkwardness in a game, but personally that's never been something that made me bat an eye.
Well Goose, I'd say immersion is the key word here. We want to enter a world unlike our daily boring lives and experience a great adventure of characters that touch our moral and rational values in ways we question ourselves and emerge greater inside than before we played. This means that we don't want to get bombarded by political messaging about what is right or wrong according to devs much less receive a story that doesn't align with what we know historically of human behaviour from the past even if it's a fantasy analogy of it. For example, Battlefield has been on decline since 2018 because they have been delivering half baked games but from the immersion perspective what bothers me is the inclusion of women (and some men) in fancy clothing that reflects nothing what a military conflict historical or futuristic/fictional would have. Battlefield V feels like a parody with the plethora of dumb characters you can use in customization while Battlefield 2042 (which I refuse to play) brought pseudo super hero specialists who have nothing to do with a supposed military simulation. Battlefield 1 on the other hand even with historical innacuracies such as Askari warriors on the european theater feels amazing because of how devastating and oppressive the atmosphere feels and every match gives the impression of history being made. Long story short when you engage in a shooter that isn't an e-sport you want it to reflect the meaningful reality of a nobody soldier sent to kill or die in a massive conflict and breaking immersion with cosplaying characters ruins the experience.
I will just add that immersion is very subjective. One person wants a big rpg with living world that reacts to your actions. Others might be immersed in cozy games, and some others might enjoy games like ETS2 which others see as boring. The great thing about gaming is diversity defined as there are some many different games which cover a lot of market meaning everyone should be able to find something that suits them.
Video games, like every other art form, must eventually be judged. It's the final step in the creative process & is essential to the growth of both the medium & the artists that created it. Yet that process has become increasingly volatile when it comes to video games & there is a good reason for this. All other forms of artistic expression, literature, music, painting, sculpture & movies are experienced passively. We read, listen, observe & watch as an audience, detached from the work itself. Video games demand our active participation, & the skill & dedication of that participation has a direct effect on our experience with the games themselves. It's what makes games more immersive than any other medium & it's what makes them such a frustrating dissappointment when they fail. Our time is part of the price of admission & when some self-important creator or greedy publisher bait & switches us into wasting hours upon hours of that time anger is a natural (& necessary) reaction. The money we spent can be re-aquired, but our time is gone forever. It's a painful loss & anger is the best painkiller I know. It's also, like most painkillers, incredibly addictive. It might well be our responsibility to break that cycle, but as long as the industry percieves us as mere consumers I don't see that happening. Active participation makes gamers the final part of the creative process & until that is acknowledged, our shared responsibility will continue to elude us.
You added a really interesting and valuable point to the picture. Thanks for sharing it! I guess it should empower us as a community to think of more thoughtful solutions to the problem instead of screaming into the void, you know. Because if there are no solutions except angry rants and getting disrespectful comments from a gaming community when one tries to have a conversation (not with you, of course, I'm theorising), then I am kinda depressed and don't know what future this channel will have. It hasn't been a day when someone hasn't called me a bitch, stupid, insane or a shill 🤣 I just want to talk about games!
@@ImpGoose Name-callers are just people who don't know how to express themselves. Which, (of course) makes them brutal to listen to. Just remember, it isn't your responsibility to intuit their feelings or motivations, nor should it be. Not every bird has a pleasant song. The good news is... They always fly away. 😉
I will have to disagree here, the era of meeting most of these modern devs half way is long gone, personally i don't participate in these feuds as i already know it won't lead anywhere, but when you have devs on social media wishing you "dé@d" if you don't align with their views is where i personally check out and it's not in any case my fault that the biggest video game developers hire radical activists to agitate and insult their own customers.
Yeah, twitter wars or whatever they call them today bring harm to the communities as well. One of the reasons why I had a very serious thought of stopping engaging with the gaming industry. The problem as I see it, what you texted is yet another particle of a problem that is now a huge pile of nasty-smelling stuff. How can we solve it? Cursing at people is unacceptable for devs and players. What to do to make the community better?
@@ImpGoose I can recommend Laura Fryer take on this (this was about Avowed). But while customers will always criticize some in a constructive way, some just hating it is up to business to react in a correct way. Do not pour gasoline on the fire. Here is an example No Man’s Sky you remember the launch of this game, and what was going even before it. Launch was not great. What do the Halo Games did? They disconnected from social media, they did not engage and worked hard to prove the game can become what they wanted. They managed to release a lot of major updates. This of course does not absolve them from the launch, but at least is some type of redemption story. What many others do? Jump to social media actively offending potential customers. Never a good idea. For crying out loud, many corporations have policies on how to engage with social media, and failing to comply these might result in getting fired. I have a hard time to believe that companies producing games do not have such policies. (Sure small indie companies might not). These policies are often a common sense “question before posting” - is what I’m about to post confidential? - will someone reading know I work for (company name)? - does my post adhere to code of business conduct? - is my post legal under local laws? - is my post a responsible representation of my knowledge and my position? - am I connecting with others in a meaningful way? Based on these I sadly see many community managers or some people from dev studios who based on what they publish on social media should be just fired due to causing harm to the product and the company. The question is why they were not let go?
It's been a long time since I've seen someone so aggressively out of touch. So let me get this straight: companies keep feeding us terrible, unfinished, underdeveloped games, they keep focusing on monetization instead of making good games, they keep trying to squeeze every single cent out of us, they keep injecting their personal politics into games for no reason or benefit, and then when we dont buy those games, it's our fault?! Lady, are you insane?! Of course we are cynical... BECAUSE THEY MADE US CYNICAL, for crying out loud. And of course we criticize them, because that's what you are supposed to do! Do you suggest we say nothing when another crap game comes out?! Should we just accept that?! You think that will solve things?! My god... this video is nothing but one long tirade of ignorance...
I like the part where you fixated on one variable while the problem is complex and has been narrated into your ears. You are the very proof of what I meant in the video. Firstly, you fail to understand the difference between acceptance and indifference. Secondly, no one can make you cynical. An adult is not a child and is responsible for their choices and reactions. Lastly, the pronoun "our" includes both sides - people who are creating games and playing them. The title mentioned both parties and I spoke about them even more. Yup, I mentioned the part with corporate greed as well.
Congratulations on being uneducated and rude to a stranger. The fact that you refuse to see the other sides of the problem and calling me insane and ignorant speaks volumes about your thinking abilities and manners. I suggest you have a look in a mirror and come back when you learn how to be respectful.
Gamers are not killing gaming, gaming is not dying, good games are selling in numbers and making huge profit. Small indie games with good gameplay are still the best, they come out, get gamer appreciation and makes profit. Good corporate games sell 10s of millions copies and make huge profit. It is the bad games that are dying, bad developers that are losing their jobs, bad companies losing market profit because of bad decision.
Note that I said good games, a good game also comes with good business decision, for example releasing on as many platform and countries as possible at the same time. Companies that are doing PS5 exclusive and releasing games on PC after a year or releasing only in a select few countries, are not making good business decisions, so they are not good games and they fail like they should.
You see how curious this topic is. Some people thought that I accused gamers, others thought that I pointed a finger at devs. Meanwhile this video is about all of us having power and responsibility to keep the industry at a great level where profit is only one variable in the equation. It's curious how selective our minds are when we listen to other people's ideas and opinions.
I love the "polite indifference" line, I wish we saw more of it. Not rage-spitting long threads and hours long videos chewing on the same problems until engaging drops
Thanks! My TH-cam feed has been a mess for years. It's tiring 😅 I guess the only thing we can do is to find communities that appreciate games in a balanced way, showing good and bad sides and then discussing it
I agree with a lot of what you say here and my view is that this is an inevitable cycle to some degree. A game development studio will start up with people who are passionate about telling a story and making a good game, and then they will get bigger and are pressured to make more money and creativity becomes stifled. I think that if you are making a game for any other reason than to tell a good story and/or make an enjoyable game, be that money, message, demand from parent company/stockholders or anything else, it is likely that it will be a mediocre game at best and probably a bad game. However, a lot of those creative people are getting fed up with this, leaving their former studios and starting up their own studios that are now at the beginning of the cycle. So I think that there is definitely hope for the industry. I do appreciate you bringing up the problem with criticism of games. I heard an adage once that 'nothing is ever as good or as bad as people say on the Internet' because I think it has become to some degree the nature of social media to oversimplify and then inflate a value judgment to stimulate emotions and increase engagement. And on that note, I very much appreciate you making a conscious effort to keep your content and community a place of analytical thought and constructive criticism.
Thanks for joining the conversation! You have wise thoughts that make me wonder if the new studios which emerge ARE the rebirth cycle. Therefore, they are a signal that the old is dying to let the new bring what the industry needs to survive. It's a valuable detail that I accidentally missed. And thanks for seeing what kind of channel this is trying to be ❤️ It's precious!
Gaming industry has the cycle you mentioned, same was seen before in tech industry.
There is another cycle “hype cycle” for investors this applies to public companies.
If the true customer of the company are investors not people buying or using the products/services this is what one might get. Many corporations surf of this hype cycles and does not even create a good product/service the point it to gain momentum with buzz words, and reduce the spending when the current hype cycle dies, and preferably already then start a new one.
I participated in a gamejam where I had to create a game in a week - I did so with a friend. Having a background in web-development (a degree from like 2010, the gamejam was in 2022) and my friend doing hobby-based programming for fun, we ended up with a decent game. Our first game. It gave me perspective on the game-dev problems the industry is plagued with, because a lot of our instability in the product came from the timeframe we had to work with. But we also sat down quickly and went "what can we REALISTICALLY make?" very early in the process.
With that in mind, I've started looking at games with another perspective, and it has allowed me to praise systems where relevant, but also be so extra critical of choices made within the games. Especially when it comes to anti-consumer implementations, which include time-sinks. When you know it's literally as simple as removing or adding a 0 to a cost or reward from a vendor or quest respectively, you also start burning out of said type of content faster (at least I do). It has completely shattered the illusion of "the grind" for me. It's why I've been frustrated with Veilguard's combat/rep/companion grind, because it's implemented in a way that I, an ameteur, could've done it and be like "yea that seems ok, not good, but doable", although admittedly I'd need more time than they probably spent on it haha.
But on the other hand, it also makes me feel so much more frustrated on behalf of developers who care deeply for their product, because someone in management made a decision they have to live with, and we (customers) have to suffer through.
That was a cool story, thanks for sharing it! Unfortunately, I couldn't see the imperfections of DAV from your pov as you are an experienced dev, and knowing that these small things could be swiftly fixed is sad. I saw the bad sides of Veilguard as a player and the immersion breaking was one of the worst things that included writing and some game mechanics. Still, I understand that making games is hard and nobody wants to make a bad game. There are too many factors that can tie devs hands such as shareholders' demands or the beliefs of what devs consider popular or fun.
At the same time, the amount of unconstructive hate the game got is unbelievable. Being in the middle of it made me think if I should continue working on this channel. Thankfully, there are many people who are respectful and don't mind talking about things they disagree with in a polite manner. Thanks for joining the conversation and being one of them!
With respect.
Pleasing shareholders, lack of management accountability. The goodwill has dried up from gamers not because we don't give good feedback. It is the arrogance of management that thinks it has a hit on it's hand, regardless of feedback, within and outside of the company. I cannot appreciate Starwars Outlaws or any other mediocre experience.
I agree with you. As I said, they don't treat gamers with respect and we are wallets to the management who makes decisions. Today, this situation with bad games doesn't have the luxury of "they started it!" and it has evolved into a loop. We know that DA4 director and writers were removed from the studio. It didn't solve the problem, it removed the employees. Sadly, there will be more bad games because of the revenue mindset. Gamers didn't change anything for those who make decisions. So what can we do?
@@ImpGoose I agree, what can we do. :D
🤣 fair enough
@@ImpGoosehere is my take on what can we do.
1. Do not buy games which have a lot of warning ⚠️ flags. Wait. If the game turns out to be good we can buy it later, if it turns out to be average on can wait for a deep deep sale.
2. Even though we are passionate about games, which means we might get emotional (from love to hate and everything in between), let’s try to be constructive with criticism. If there is an aspect we do not like use arguments why we do not like it. Possibly present alternative we thing might be better. (Here we can only hope for the best this will not be swiped under the rug labeled as hate which often happens)
3. If we feel tired and burned out, disconnect from social media (to avoid gaming news and discussions), make a small break from gaming and use the time to enjoy other hobbies. After that just pick up a game (maybe from the backlog) and give it a try, see if you are having fun. If so just play it, if not try another game.
4. Do not forget why you play games, what is the reason. For me it is entertainment and having fun (sometimes relaxing sometimes challenging) is what counts for me.
To add to the last point more than 30 years of being a gamer and I still enjoy it.
Have a nice time gaming!
6 minutes in, and I will defend customers (to a degree). The cycle in my option looks a bit differently
Games comes out, done with not much passion rather from the template or a checklist which in theory should be a hit but in practice have issues with finding audience. Audience is divided between one who present their criticism (often valid well argumented) and the second part which just bash the game, with hatred (towards the product but sometimes also towards the people who made it).
What happens is that all valid criticism is lost and seen as hate due to smaller but vocal minority of people who actually are spreading the hate.
Since criticism is ignored, next product will not be better, and the vicious cycle repeats.
I’m far from putting more blame than absolutely necessary on the customer. A market can be defined as all of the customers. As as such companies producing the games need customers more than said customers their products. Worst case scenario people might find another hobby or play old games they already own. These people will be just fine, but the gaming industry with lost sales might not be.
We are seeing a lot of changes in gaming, nothing new I started playing back in ‘92 and gaming was always changing. The question is where these changes will lead us? I’m outside of main age group for gamers, and I accepted that many games might not be done with older demographic in mind.
But with my library I’d drm free games I’m good even if the full industry would collapse (which of course will not happen).
Culture war, censorships, corporate interests, political divisions, etc. happened. For example, seasoned developers like Bioware have many mature and strict fans. Our demands and expectations have also matured and increased. Many of us respect our precious time and money in any release from them. We have plenty of games already. So if game developers want our money, they gotta earn it, not try to resort to the same old2 shady corporate tactics to fool teens that we have seen for almost 2 decades now. So yeah, i am glad Bioware did the purges. Perhaps something good would come out of it.
We shall see. DA4 with all those therapy chats gets into gaming history as a meme. Well deserved. Still I'm thinking how we can change the demand-market situation without constant wars on social media.
See, I don't believe the purges are going to help anything, beacause firstly, Veilguard is, if not a great game, then a perfectly good one. Obviously it could be better, but when you step back, it's not some trainwreck. I refuse to believe that making an at worst "okay" product is grounds to cost anyone their job. And secondly, I don't believe that the purges were anything to do with maintaining the quality of future games, because those purges got rid of all the veteran developers that created the games in the series everyone agrees were good. EA probably got rid of the highest-paid individuals and kept the new hires that they can charge the least or most easily take advantage of. This actually makes me think, have we ever had a situation where a developer purges a whole bunch of talent and then their next game is better as a result? I at least haven't.
@@velemamba260 Veteran developers of which specific games are you talking about?
@@marcomongke3116 I'm talking about people who've been there since Dragon Age origins in some form or another. And let's not forget that bioware veterans have been being laid off since before Veilguard was even released. Mary Kirby, who wrote Varric since DA2, was laid off before the game's release, as a recent example. Patrick and Karin Weekes are also both gone with this latest round. Which to me is more proof that these layoffs aren't about improving quality. And I'm not even someone who thinks "new devs=bad." I think that getting new blood into a studio is important for the studio and for the industry as a whole.
And another reason I don't believe these purges will do anything for quality and will probably end up being a net negative, is that they were probably done by the same higher ups at EA who made Bioware reboot the game looooong ago to turn it into a live service game.
@velemamba260 i am aware of the layoffs that happened over the years. Regardless, the few good devs who were at Bioware still didn't deliver in the latest games. Since 2014, including Inquisition, in my opinion. While i feel somewhat saddened about Dragon Age, i am also happy that EA finally putting Bioware out of their misery of being in the state of mediocrity and shadow of its glory days. Current Bioware never listened to criticism and feedback. Since we were not allowed freely critique Dragon age or Masseffect in social media communities, some of us have no choice but to do it everywhere else. Having said that, i would still blame EA and her profit and agenda driven activists as the main culprits of chaos and corporate shenanigans.
I Agree with you completely; Games are about fun adventure and curiosity all together. It should never cater to a certain type of ideology.
I have very fond memories of Assassins Creed 2, played a lot of hours exploring the world of Renaissance Italy, Meeting Leonardo as crafter, world was ripe I had fun playing for hours. playing the character Ezio entire journey was sublime. Soundtrack of Assassin creed 2 was my jam still i hear the music if get time same with Dragon age.
Dragon Age Origins is similar it made me go through various emotions and experience a medieval fantasy before I ever knew there is a thing called Dark fantasy. The mature world where every worst situation boldly displayed with no handholding gave me the inspiration to write a story on my own and how the characters should be written.
Games are all about coming together, making new friends exploring the world and mostly learning new things that are unknown. i do wish i would go back to good old days playing these once again.
That's just awesome! I had a great pleasure reading it and it's so cool we found each other in this community 🔥 Chatting with you during streams was really fun!
@ImpGoose oh I will not forget 😂
On the closing part. When you state that “corporate greed might result in you leaving this hobby”.
Well even if you complete ignore big publishers, you will still have older titles to play, or a ton of indie games among which there will be a least a few each year worth playing. So this might reduce the time you spent on gaming but does not mean leaving this hobby. This to me would be the last resort, when all other alternatives failed.
Dear Important Goose, thats why i spend more time to my hobbi, what is the writing ( not in english ). And i started that fantasy world building story what is what as the Dragon age should have been in some setting (actually inspired by "how could it be perfected").
For two months now, I've only been building the world setting. Secrets, ancient origins, 16 countries, with world map, political map, coats of arms. Chronolog, ancient civilizations, civilizations before the cataclysm, and the civilization beyond the sea and its creatures, etc.
It will be a series of ten books.
No game can provide the same excitement and sense of achievement as discoveries, investigations, language creation, world creation, the history of relics, the origin and role of magic. Gods who are not gods, etc.
Fortunately, since 2009, they have already taught how to build a world, and the chronological concept of dragon age spices it up and adds to it ( it is the least what i deserve from the game). I think it will take another month before everything is ready for writing.
It's interesting, I wrote the draft of the first book 2 years ago. Based on which I continued to build the world. What has changed is that I need a separate, huge cork board to see the ancient secrets.
I'm happy about the event because I'm finally spending time and energy on what I need. To create value.
And to tell stories, to share, and maybe i dont waste my time with it. I will be 35 this year. And I want to leave my masterpiece behind for the next generation. I'm already moved by this. I have played my old favorite games 10-30 times. But it is a same old story, and now it is boring, and i don't care about the new ones.
So for that I am grateful.
I share this with you as a sign of respect.
I wish you success and happiness.
Wow, that's amazing! I hope you'll find your luck, audience and remember to have fun with your writing 🥳 We never know how life will turn but planting seeds is an important journey. One day they might grow into trees...and they bear the sweet fruit of your labour! Thanks for sharing your story and for your kind words 🍀✨
@@ImpGoose Thank you :)
For what it's worth, Chris Crawford has been saying similar things since the mid-'80s : )
Well, I'm not that old to remember it but apparently we share the low stages of this thinking exercise 🤣
Was there an era where Gamers have "good" feedback? Are we talking about the era where you would read about games in a magazine. :D
Lmao, I'm ready to make an independent magazine if it brings back constructive articles. We should clarify that when I say "good", I mean balanced, exposing great sides of the genre meanwhile analysing whether the game reached the bar of excellence in this genge and for the announced age group. What do you mean by "good"?
Nah, I don't think gaming industry is dying, it actually one of the most fast growing segments of entertainment market. And grass was not greener in the past. There always were good games we still remember till this day and trash with questionable messaging (like half naked gals with gravity defying boobs jumping around for example) no one thinks about anymore in ratio of 1 to 25. Just like now for every exeptional BG3 and Elden Ring we have two dozens of AC, Fifa clones, Veilguards, Starfields and other mediocrities. There always were audacious punks swoping in with hot new things to take place of old companies already past their creative prime. Like CDPR eaten alive juggernauts of a studios like Piranha Bytes in Europe with their Witcher series, Bioware pushed away Origins games back in nineties only to be eaten now by Larian and probably their own offsprings like Archetype Entertainment (they making exodus). None of this is new.
Only difference is now everything is visible, loud and in your face. You don't just play the game and discuss it with your close friends or put it away, you go online to listen thousand diffrent people yealing their opinions through various social media trashing or praising every game to high heavens, dissecting every success and failure in excruciating detail, because discourse is a buisness of it's own. All we can do is consume it all in moderation in order to not burn out. Game industry will be fine 😌
True, gaming isn’t dying...it’s just going through its midlife crisis in 4K haha. I guess my point is more about the community and how people discuss stuff. Indeed, now instead of just cringing at bad games in private, we have to watch 500-hour video essays about them and try to find an informative and decent early review. My feed is full of...well, not analytical content and it's, as you said, loud. Moderation is key… unless it’s Baldur’s Gate 3, in which case, who needs sleep? Anyway, glad to see you in the comments again! Probably I'm just being low but hopefully KCD2 will patch me well haha
I agree with a lot of what you're saying, for sure. I think both sides of the relationship have really taken a negative turn, but I do think some parties hold more responsibility than others. I think that the upper management that provides th emoney for a lot of game developers are a real root cause here. They treat the players like revenue streams, absolutely. But they also treat the devs below them in much the same way. Forcing them to accomodate unreasonable demands, work to painful deadlines and unmeetable expectations, then getting rid of them when they inevitably fail. Or in certain cases, getting rid of them even if they actually succeed. I'm not going to claim every game would suddenly become a masterpiece otherwise (that's not reasonable to want or expect) but I think that it would help.
For our part as fans, I think a lot of the community takes bad games too personally. No dev ever wants to make a bad game, and making any game, even a bad one, is hard. But I see so many gamers treat a disappointing game like it's some kind of insult, and assume a degree of incompetence to the people involved, if not outright malice at times. And there's a glee people seem to take in a game's failure that I find really upsetting. Unless a game is espousing some kind of hateful philosophy or being made by someone who does, I never want a game to fail. Even when people are saying a game looks bad, I hope that it turns out good and that people enjoy it. But the stance a lot of other people take is less "I think this game will fail and here's why" and more "I think this game is going to fail and I can't wait to be right." It's like you said, people seem more excited to tear down games, and when a game comes along that they do think is good, it often feels like the first instinct is to use it as a cudgel against games that failed, as yet another way to tear down games they feel didn't measure up, when the devs behind the game probably wouldn't want that, and usually when we see different dev teams talk about each other, they're wishing each other only the best.
I also think that there's a weird thing among gamers where somehow, only the best is acceptable and anyone who accepts less than the best is implicitly... less, somehow. And this plays into another issue where I feel like it's more acceptable to dislike a popular thing than it is to like an unppular thing. I'll speak from my experience. I absolutely loved Veilguard. I thought it was a great game. I've played every game in the series from origins and Veilguard is actually my favorite in the series now. I've liked each game more and Veilguard continued that trend. I wouldn't bring that up in most gaming communities for fear of being called stupid, and I just avoid discussion of it because I constantly see people casually insulting the idea that people could like it. Meanwhile, I kind of hate BG3. I've genuinely never been more disappointed by a game. It made me go back and play the first two games for the first time, and I loved those and came away thinking "wow, if I'd played these first, I'd have been even MORE disappointed in BG3." But I feel way more comfortable expressing that online because people seem more willing to engage peacibly. Not everyone, but in general I can expect less hostility and dismissiveness.
Sorry that got so long-winded, this just happened to be a cross-section of a lot of thoughts I've had on this topic.
No worries, it's great that you thought about it and had some things to share. I must say that I definitely forgot to mention what you noticed (the management looks down at devs). Indeed, passion can be communicated differently and having excitement about someone failing is a disturbing tendency. It's amazing that you liked the game and I wish I could be in your boat. I guess too many things didn't click for me simply because tastes differ, though knowing that someone enjoyed it brings me peace. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, there were multiple moments that gave me food for thought 🍀✨
Nope, I haven't said a bad word about any game that didn't deserve it. It's not my job to create cozy, positive enviroment for let's say... Bioware writers. I also don't have to point out any redeeming qualities of a game if I don't like even one aspect of it. I can just express what my issue is, and if it's easily summed up in a punchline? That's fine too.
Your comments on this channel express a different view though. You call other people names when they disagree with you politely. You haven't played the Witcher 4 yet judge it by a single trailer. Bioware writers created great characters and stories before, they wrote what they were told for money and a possibility to have a job that pays the bills. Alas, that's the "snake eating its tail" situation. And that's what I'm offering to talk about, not creating any cosy spaces. You took a different angle and value from the offered thinking exercise. That's indeed fine, though a complex problem requires a complex solution. So, I agree to disagree with you here.
>I don't recall anyone disagreeing with me in any way and me calling that person names on this channel. I even went back and checked lol. I do say mean stuff but if, for example, someone reads something like "village fools on twitter" and takes it personally as if I'm talking about other commenter on youtube... that's beyond my influence 😂
>I haven't played Witcher 4 - but I've seen the trailer. It's the purpose of the trailer - to be judged by the audience, is it not?
>Biowere/was former writers had been on a decline for years, where they not? They peaked long time ago, I don't believe they can or will get "it" back. No matter where they move next.
@@justaquietpeacefuldance They didn't learn from the dragon age veilguard trailer, something comes out by another company 3rd party. Not fully reflected of the product but that isn't made clear.
I don't disagree with your point. However, I don't believe this is all the developer's fault. For some companies, it's not even the developer's choice, it's the share-holders. They make the decisions for the product thinking of nothing but numbers and profit. Developers are obligated to apply these decisions breaking their spirits and creativity. This industry, like many other industries today, are all in the power of rich snobs who care only for money. Forcing companies/studios to pump out soulless trash.
Thanks for enriching this video. I definitely should have separated this part and not use an abstract "they" when it comes to studios. I agree with what you said and I'm adding a word "shareholders" to my personal dictionary 😅 English is my second language, so your help is highly appreciated. Thanks again!
It's the devs and a few investors. Everything else is just naivety and false narrative. It's not about the money, otherwise they wouldn't be doing this.
I wish it was as simple as you want it to be. I think that the issue is that the troubles in gaming are merely a reflection of an even greater tumor that exists in society, mainly in the US.
(but not only)
Once you reach a kind of "critical mass" as far as the gap between one side of the political spectrum and the other, when people regularly talk about committing violence and wishing ill - at that point the gap becomes almost impossible to bridge, and you simply sort of have to wait for the furor to die out, for the fire to burn itself out.
Certain game developers are not interested in making games that entertain as many people as possible, respect establish lore, and tell good stories.
Rather they want to make games that serve as a loudspeaker for their political opinions.
They aren't interested in compromise or discussion, and aren't amenable to making peaceful gestures towards those they see as their political enemies.
Of course, corporate side doesn't really care as long as they get their bag of cash. (which lately they failed to get a few times due to these mistakes and others)
On the other hand, it can't be denied that some vocal voices on the gamer side are simply unreasonable, and just as extreme politically - only in the other direction.
These people also aren't likely to agree to sit around a fire with their political rivals and sing songs of friendship.
There are some signs that corporate is starting to see the merit in not consigning gaming to the hands of extreme political ideologues, that perhaps it would be better if such roles were more reflective of society and specifically the people who actually buy these products, but it is too early to say.
Regardless, with every high-profile gaming flop, the panic of corporate grows and eventually change will become inevitable.
Maybe such change will bring on its wings a new golden age for gaming. I certainly hope so.
I would not say that it's simple, but I have a desire to find the pattern or create a system in this problem. Many people recognised that being indifferent means being acceptable and/or friendly. In reality it's something similar to what happened to Unknown 9 Awakening. People were indifferent and didn't say much. The game flopped dramatically. Many gamers still don't know that it even exists.
Sadly, the situation in the industry is super complex to give it an easy fix. However, we still can try to figure out multiple solutions collectively. I understand the points you mentioned and just want to make the gaming community a respected element in the system. Maybe it will never happen. Maybe we will be able to shift the narrative through constructive negotiations. Life can surprise us if we act correctly.
So I agree with you that gaming is a reflection of an even bigger issue happening in society, but I think I disagree with you in how it's manifesting in games. Firstly, I don't honestly think that most devs are "idealogues" disregarding lore and all else and demanding we side with them. That's just not been my experience. I think that the reason idealogy has gotten more explicit in games is two-fold. Firstly, there has been a growing contingent of people who consider even the presence of a non-white man in most games to be a statement of idealogy. Secondly, especially in the states there's a growing hostility to people of color, the lgbt community and women as well. Of course these two factors are fueling one another. So I think what's happening in gaming is pretty logical; we're seeing some devs react to that loud, unsubtle shift by being loud and unsubtle in return. I mean when BG1 and 2 where being made, you didn't have people yelling and complaining about the mere presence of a black character in a vageuely medieaval fantasy setting.
And now we're at a point where devs don't want to be seen as "giving in" to those right wing grifters and complainers so they're less likely to pull back, and in fact are more likely to get more explicit as a statement of defiance against what seems to have become the status quo. Frankly, we're just not in an era where subtletly has as much room to breath. And personally, I actually do appreciate a game that takes a strong stance in this day and age. I don't see it as being extreme or being an idealogue. I just think that in an era where people who want an overwhelming straight, white male environment feel empowered to demand that loudly and constantly, it's no great sin for the people that want the opposite to also state that quite clearly. Maybe that might lead to some awkwardness in a game, but personally that's never been something that made me bat an eye.
Well Goose, I'd say immersion is the key word here. We want to enter a world unlike our daily boring lives and experience a great adventure of characters that touch our moral and rational values in ways we question ourselves and emerge greater inside than before we played. This means that we don't want to get bombarded by political messaging about what is right or wrong according to devs much less receive a story that doesn't align with what we know historically of human behaviour from the past even if it's a fantasy analogy of it.
For example, Battlefield has been on decline since 2018 because they have been delivering half baked games but from the immersion perspective what bothers me is the inclusion of women (and some men) in fancy clothing that reflects nothing what a military conflict historical or futuristic/fictional would have. Battlefield V feels like a parody with the plethora of dumb characters you can use in customization while Battlefield 2042 (which I refuse to play) brought pseudo super hero specialists who have nothing to do with a supposed military simulation. Battlefield 1 on the other hand even with historical innacuracies such as Askari warriors on the european theater feels amazing because of how devastating and oppressive the atmosphere feels and every match gives the impression of history being made.
Long story short when you engage in a shooter that isn't an e-sport you want it to reflect the meaningful reality of a nobody soldier sent to kill or die in a massive conflict and breaking immersion with cosplaying characters ruins the experience.
Fair point! Nothing brings more confusion than an element of the game we have to explain to ourselves instead of just believing in it.
I will just add that immersion is very subjective. One person wants a big rpg with living world that reacts to your actions. Others might be immersed in cozy games, and some others might enjoy games like ETS2 which others see as boring.
The great thing about gaming is diversity defined as there are some many different games which cover a lot of market meaning everyone should be able to find something that suits them.
Video games, like every other art form, must eventually be judged. It's the final step in the creative process & is essential to the growth of both the medium & the artists that created it. Yet that process has become increasingly volatile when it comes to video games & there is a good reason for this.
All other forms of artistic expression, literature, music, painting, sculpture & movies are experienced passively. We read, listen, observe & watch as an audience, detached from the work itself. Video games demand our active participation, & the skill & dedication of that participation has a direct effect on our experience with the games themselves. It's what makes games more immersive than any other medium & it's what makes them such a frustrating dissappointment when they fail. Our time is part of the price of admission & when some self-important creator or greedy publisher bait & switches us into wasting hours upon hours of that time anger is a natural (& necessary) reaction. The money we spent can be re-aquired, but our time is gone forever. It's a painful loss & anger is the best painkiller I know. It's also, like most painkillers, incredibly addictive. It might well be our responsibility to break that cycle, but as long as the industry percieves us as mere consumers I don't see that happening. Active participation makes gamers the final part of the creative process & until that is acknowledged, our shared responsibility will continue to elude us.
You added a really interesting and valuable point to the picture. Thanks for sharing it! I guess it should empower us as a community to think of more thoughtful solutions to the problem instead of screaming into the void, you know. Because if there are no solutions except angry rants and getting disrespectful comments from a gaming community when one tries to have a conversation (not with you, of course, I'm theorising), then I am kinda depressed and don't know what future this channel will have. It hasn't been a day when someone hasn't called me a bitch, stupid, insane or a shill 🤣 I just want to talk about games!
@@ImpGoose Name-callers are just people who don't know how to express themselves. Which, (of course) makes them brutal to listen to. Just remember, it isn't your responsibility to intuit their feelings or motivations, nor should it be. Not every bird has a pleasant song. The good news is...
They always fly away. 😉
Aw, that's a beautiful saying 😍
I will have to disagree here, the era of meeting most of these modern devs half way is long gone, personally i don't participate in these feuds as i already know it won't lead anywhere, but when you have devs on social media wishing you "dé@d" if you don't align with their views is where i personally check out and it's not in any case my fault that the biggest video game developers hire radical activists to agitate and insult their own customers.
Yeah, twitter wars or whatever they call them today bring harm to the communities as well. One of the reasons why I had a very serious thought of stopping engaging with the gaming industry. The problem as I see it, what you texted is yet another particle of a problem that is now a huge pile of nasty-smelling stuff. How can we solve it? Cursing at people is unacceptable for devs and players. What to do to make the community better?
@@ImpGoose I can recommend Laura Fryer take on this (this was about Avowed).
But while customers will always criticize some in a constructive way, some just hating it is up to business to react in a correct way.
Do not pour gasoline on the fire.
Here is an example No Man’s Sky you remember the launch of this game, and what was going even before it.
Launch was not great. What do the Halo Games did? They disconnected from social media, they did not engage and worked hard to prove the game can become what they wanted. They managed to release a lot of major updates. This of course does not absolve them from the launch, but at least is some type of redemption story.
What many others do? Jump to social media actively offending potential customers. Never a good idea.
For crying out loud, many corporations have policies on how to engage with social media, and failing to comply these might result in getting fired. I have a hard time to believe that companies producing games do not have such policies. (Sure small indie companies might not).
These policies are often a common sense “question before posting”
- is what I’m about to post confidential?
- will someone reading know I work for (company name)?
- does my post adhere to code of business conduct?
- is my post legal under local laws?
- is my post a responsible representation of my knowledge and my position?
- am I connecting with others in a meaningful way?
Based on these I sadly see many community managers or some people from dev studios who based on what they publish on social media should be just fired due to causing harm to the product and the company.
The question is why they were not let go?