Hope you all enjoy this one! Considering the limited information about his past, there was a lot to discuss. If you want ones on Tyrion, Jaime, and Cersei, give the video a like or some sort of supportive action...I dunno, just glad you're watching, really. Patreon link: patreon.com/mylittlethoughttree Instagram link: instagram.com/little_thought_tree
I think at 8:15 with the remark of, "What crimes?" I think it's important to remember that Tytos did everything but abdicate his lordship after his sons returned from war. The world book states that he left more and more of the running of things to Tywin. So Tywin was acting as his father's Hand essentially when he first demanded either repayments or hostages from their vassals that owed them money. More than half the houses under them refused while the Reynes as the leaders of this power block laughed and refused to comply. This is already a punishable crime in a feudal society. So it's not unreasonable for Tywin to jail Lord Tarbek. They respond by kidnapping their liege Lord's relatives which is pretty much the highest form of treason they could've committed shy of actually killing them. Also Tywin used the incident of calling for repayment or hostages to see who was still loyal to House Lannister. It was from the compliant houses he drew his levies in preparation to blitzkrieg the Reynes and Tarbeks when they entered open rebellion. How do you think Tywin had such overwhelming force at the ready when his enemies weren't even able to fully muster their own forces and allies before they were already beaten?
I was particularly thrilled to see you noted that Tywin's "stealing" of Shae from Tyrion was an acknowledgement that Tyrion *is* actually a rival and threat. I remember having a huge "a-HA!" moment while reading the book and encountering that scene.
I had this moment when I rewatched the death scene and noted how Charles Dance delivered “she’s a whore” with hesitancy, it’s the only time Tywin utters something that he’s not sure if it’s empirical fact or not. He knows she’s a whore from a brothel, but that won’t change the fact that Tyrion loves her, which to Tywin stands as a ridiculous, folly-filled way for him to get back at his greatest enemy: his own son. He’s not sure if he can appeal to his son’s own political ambition anymore. So if he keeps saying it, hopefully it’ll resonate as truth and the Imp will come to his senses. whoops, incorrect, he shot me
I understand Varys may have played a role in Shae's move from Tyrion to Tywin, actually. Further, that Tywin may have been poisoned in a way that would make it extremely difficult to ever move his bowels, such that Tyrion's crossbow-murder was superfluous.
@@isaacsanford6340 The poisoning was probably due to Oberyn since we dont see Tywin with this affliction until Oberyn ( Expert in poisoning ) arrived at the capital
I think for someone who needs to feel in control of everything, losing a beloved wife in childbirth to a disabled baby would be his worst nightmare. He didn't have any power to save his wife, and he didn't have any power over Tyrion's dwarfism, it, like many disabilities, just happened by chance. It's sad he can't see Tyrions value because of this, insanely intelligent, charming and good hearted. Tyrion not only makes Tywin angry and disappointed but he is also a living reminder of Tywins biggest fear; impotence.
I felt Cercei was more like him than all of them. And Tywin never noticing her truly hurt. I actually thought that was his most interesting relationship dynamics . And the disappointment in Jamie was interesting too! Tywin was always a character I always wanted to know more about.
I imagine Joanna must have been something like Margaery Tyrell, someone who is also ambitious but in her own arena that would just bolster him and not take away from him.
The Joanna/Jeyne Marbrand character was said to regulate Tywin and made him more human in spite of her own political talents. Would be a fascinating character to see portrayed, proto-Cersei with just a touch of Catelyn Tully’s ability to humanise her career soldier/politician of a husband
I think the depths of his denial speak volumes of his character. Tywin never, for 20 years made any contingency plans for his inheritance. Jaime become a Kingsguard at 15 and remained one. Yet, Tywin seemingly refuses to acknowledge that Jaime will not inherit from him at some point. He scoffs at Cersei's ambition and is repulsed by Tyrion's claim. Yet, he doesn't remarry to sire more worthy sons. He sees marriages as bargaining tools, a transaction, yet he doesn't do the obvious thing himself. Nor does he favours one of his nephews to train up for the role. That's some narcissistic delusions right there.
I always wondered why he didn’t fight Jaime harder on that point. When Jaime said he was going back to the kingsguard after returning home, he basically just said fine.
I enjoyed this analysis but I do think there were a couple things missed. Genna Lanister (Tywin's sister) speaks to Jamie about how she loved Tywin after his death, because he was the only one who spoke out against their father betrothing her to one of the Freys. The marriage proposal was so bad that other lords laughed at it, but Tywin was the only one to actually object. I think perhaps too much symapthy is given to Tytos in the beginning here. I don't think it's entirely fair to characterize Tywin's hatred of his own father as ego. On some level I think that's correct, but Tytos wasn't just a gentle ruler that other lords laughed at. He was doing real harm to the Lannister family. I've always found Tywin's relationship with his siblings to be quite interesting in that you might expect someone who was so cold, and cruel to be feared by his siblings, but both seem to give him a great deal of respect and not out of fear, and they genuinely seem to mourn his passing. To me this indicates that he wasn't always cold and cruel and perhaps started out with better intentions than he is often given credit for. That's not to say he is in the right by flooding a castle and drowning everyone inside, but I think younger Tywin may not have been as willfully cruel or petty as older Tywin. Something else to note is that there is a theory that Tyrion is actually the son of Joanna and Aerys II as it's mentioned that Aerys always lusted after Tywin's wife, and that Tywin tried to resign as Hand of the King after Aerys "insulted" his wife during a tournament. Less than a year later Tyrion was born. While this may or may not be the case I think it makes a lot of sense that Tywin may have believed, or have been suspicious of this himself. Tyrion's an insult to him not just because he's a dwarf, but because it's Aerys killing his wife.
If Tyrion is illegitimate then that means Johanna's image to Tywin's mind is destroyed even while she's still alive. She's no longer the pure and chaste wife if she had sexual relations with someone else, making her like all the other "whores" Tywin despised and used to humiliate other men. Only in this case Tywin was the one humiliated. If Tywin believed the pregnancy wasn't his child, he may have been horrid to Johanna during her last months, and she died before Tywin could ever apologize.
I agree, I didn't intend to make it sound all sympathetic to Tytos. Whilst there is a space for kinder qualities in Westeros, it cannot come at the expense of strength. Tywin had many good reasons for the actions he took growing up, ofcourse he did...but that doesn't mean those experiences then informed the person he became Also that's a great point about Aerys. I'd vaguely heard that theory but I hope it's not true. Either way, the possibility of it would give Tywin another reason to hate his son, yeah
@@mylittlethoughttree I definitely agree in hoping that the Aerys theory is not true. Tyrion and Tywin are such great foils for each other it would ruin some of the effect, but I do really like the idea that Tywin thought it was true. Anyway I did really enjoy the video, and I hope I didn't sound too critical. I would love to hear you talk about Jamie or Sansa sometime.
Tywin's treatment of Arya in the show I think was meant to build on Cersi's back story. Since she either says in the show, or it's mentioned in the books that She used to dress as if she was Jaime, and because they were twins she could get away with being a man. Arya is dressed as a Boy, when she first becomes Tywin's cup barer and he catches her. He tells her that she reminds him of someone he used know. Probably his Daughter, or maybe Joanna was the same way, which would paint a complete picture. Cersi remarks later how she would have been the son her Father wanted, if she had only been a man. Because she listened to every word he ever said. she learned to Sword fight like Arya, since she used to pretend to be Jaime, and could do things that boys did or men do. Even in the books she takes on sort of being the man in her relationship with the one Lady she sleeps with. So I think Tywin, at least in the show prized women sort of over stepping the more female roles. For Challenging him the way you were saying. over all though this was a great Video, thanks for the entertainment.
Your insight comparing the stability of the Lannisters and the Starks after the deaths of their patriarchs is brilliant and could be a video on its own, especially in the broader scope of fiction in general. Authoritarian, insecure power is ethereal because it lacks the key ingredient to sustained strength: distribution. A leader has to be willing and able to build up those around them, especially the next generation, if the progress they've made is to be sustained. By its nature that practice can lead to challenges to the leader's authority, which Tywin is loth to tolerate. That is so cool and the contrast had never occurred to me before. You rock. Please never stop making these.
@@vaxrvaxr Yeah, I think that's my main issue with this comparison as well. So far, the Lannister vasals have been more loyal than the Stark vassals/allies (Boltons, Greyjoy's, Frey... even Theon ended up betraying the family, though he clearly regrets it. So yeah, while the Starks also have a bunch of 'The North Remembers' houses, it's not like there wasn't huge amounts of betrayal too. The North Remembers and there always has to be a Stark in winterfell, also seem to mostly just be based on tradition and superstition. (Something that Tywin who was born into a time when nobody respected his house, wouldn't have at his disposal to such a degree). And the main reason why the Starks are still powerful is magic. Bran has magic. Cat has magic. Jon is either dead or has magic. And Arya will probably get some magic. Rickon, I don't know. The only one who doesn't really get power by magic yet is Sansa, and Sansa is also treated as a pawn by characters, Ned would've considered an ally, in a very unstable position and very vulnerable. It seems like if the Lannisters lose, it's more so because they have neither Dragons, Old Gods, Fire Lord, or Faceless God Magic on their side. Not because Tywn was mean to Tyrion.
@@deanjustdean7818 I agree with your point, but not exactly with your example. Tyrion is the one that learned the most from Tywin, and Tywin seems to send him on the missions that require the most intelligence (cleverness?) to solve. When the sewer system at Casterly Rock needs work (a logistical and engineering nightmare, I'm sure) he sends Tyrion. Yes it's a gross job, but I think that's just a bonus for Tywin. When he needs the realm properly looked after, he sends Tyrion. I think where it breaks down is Tywin never taught his kids anything about controlling/redirecting their emotions, which leads them down the wrong path *every* time. They get flustered and need revenge for their wounded ego, or they get into a problem with someone whose actions are fueled by emotion, and they don't know what to do against it, bc they never got any emotional instruction from their father, and mom wasn't there
@@thesayes6231 It is my opinion that the Lannisters would have been stronger if Tywin would have embraced Tyrion- he has the most ability to think like his dad, but I think the real difference is the Lannisters cultivate fear of what they'll do if you cross them, where the Starks have a reputation for honor and all that. Their bannermen know they can trust the Starks, and that they'll rule with the same stolid fairness they have for years untold. There was definitely betrayal all over the place, but for the Starks, it came from people they knew weren't very trustworthy to begin with, vs the Lannisters, who look at everyone outside their house as a potential enemy. Esp. Cat, but a lot of the early Stark pages mention how sketchy the Boton/Freys are, and though Theon is raised as another Stark kid, he's still a hostage to try to keep the Greyjoys in line. I guess I'm saying the Lannisters never know where the knife in the back is coming from, but the Starks do- their friends are friends and their frenemies are known.
@@BaldingClamydia i didn't mean to say that Tywin's behavior wasn't harmful. Just that to draw the conclusion that because of their different behavior tge stak vassals are more loyal is a fallacy. Most stark vassals are loyal for reasons of pride and tradition, even superstition, not that they loved Ned or Robb specifically. And in general, on average, so far neither are all Stark vassals loyal, far from it, nor do we have any reason really to doubt the Westerner's loyalty. To only blame Tywin's treatment of Tyrion fr the lannister problems is also imo short sighted. It somewhat reflects a 21st century perspective, where ableism and emotional abuse are finally taken seriously. That is not the same in the GoT world. I don't say that to excuse the behavior, but simply to point at the widespread ableism in that society. Meaning, no matter how smart or capable tyrion is, even if he were to rule, he would not garner the respect of his vassals. They don't take him seriously and when they do, it's because he's Tywin's son and Jaime's brother. Tyrion wants to rule because it is his right. Tywin doesn't want to let him rule because he hates him and is ashamed of him. We like to therefore blame tywin for the results of this conflict, because morally he is undoubtedly in the wrong. But the best for the Lannisters would be for Jaime to rule. In that sense the worst that happened for the lannister family from a power-perspective, is for Jaime to refuse to leave the Kingsguard. That is what Tywin is working toward, therefore Tywin is in fact doing what he can to convince Jaime. So he is working toward the best result. (Certainly Robb didn't know where the knife was coming from. Neither did Ned. And to a degree not even Jon. It's a weird argument since both ofthem were clearly betrayed by people they trusted.)
Could you do a video on Stannis? He’s personaly my favorite character, and i just love the way he keeps going no matter the circumstances. I’d say his personality is very interesting, especially since his two brothers are the polar opposites of him and each other
@@mylittlethoughttree Yes! I would love a video on Stannis. He's got so many facets to his character, and there's also a lot of his backstory and experiences described in the text WITHOUT him ever getting a POV chapter. So it would be very fascinating to do a deep dive into how he sees the world.
I enjoy the Stannis chapters too, but I have to say that he is as utterly immoral as Tywin Lannister is. Stannis pretends to righteousness, but the longer he pursues "his birthright" the more egregious his violations of law, custom, culture, and responsibility become. Based on what's written, he feels absolutely no remorse for Renly's murder, burning former followers, or sacrificing innocents to buy R'hollr's favor or a miracle. He arrives at a place in which he has convinced himself that ANY action that advances his goals is de facto justified. He isn't as cruel as Tywin, but every bit as entitled and willing to sacrifice anything or anyone for power. It is fair to point out that he begins on solid ground. Based on the information provided to him by Ned Stark, he is indeed the rightfully heir to Rober's throne. But around the same period, he becomes radicalized by Melisandre and her fire god's magic/power/visions. Stannis, in my estimation, would have been the most disastrous ruler, and was headed directly into Westeros's version of the Inquisition/Auto da fé.
Dude, Stannis and Renly were the fascinating Baratheon brothers. Robert was doomed to his own alcoholism from the start, and his heart-break over a woman he can barely remember is the true heart of A Song of Ice & Fire, making him a tragic MacGuffin more than anything else, which, as sad as that is, his brothers - a career military commander and master politician respectively - gave his character depth in contrast
I would love to see that. I didn't like how the show portrayed him as a villain; in the books, he doesn't want to be king, but feels obligated to take the throne as a means of honoring Robert's legacy.
I think a large part of Tywin's dislike of Aerys had to do with Joanna. He made lewd jokes and "took liberties" with her. Most people think that means felt up at the bedding ceremony. Plus naming Jamie to the King's guard.
Possibly, although they were always friends in childhood. I saw all Aerys behaviour as a petty, horrible rivalrous revenge against Tywin seeming more powerful. Although it could definitely be the other way around
I think the manner of Tywin’s death was fitting. It was such an undignified, ridiculous death, killed while sitting on the toilet by his own son. What an ironic demise for a man that was so preoccupied by power, having influence, and family legacy, and his concern with other people’s opinion of House Lannister (despite the saying “a lion does not concern itself with the opinion of sheep”). Even during Season 8 (which everyone gives out about), although unsatisfying, I do think Cersei and Jamie’s deaths were somewhat fitting, as it was so unceremonious.
I agree. It could be too that Cersei got off easy by getting crushed to death (or knocked out) by rocks. Tywin was shot in the gut (or chest) and struggled for another minute or two before expiring. Unceremonious? Yes. Deserved? Perhaps not, at least for Cersei (Jamie too but he had other opportunities)
Tywin was preoccupied with never being humiliated and died a humiliating death. Cersei was concerned with power, but her character is all about a deep hatred she has for everything that isn't herself, Jaime, or her children, I don't think her death being that unceremonious was fitting at all, considering absolutely none of the people she so deeply despised (or even the ones she loved) played a part in it or cared about it. And for Jaime, everything about his character arc in season 8 was so terrible that I wouldn't have cared if he died falling from his horse, he didn't care about being dignified or powerful like his dad, his death had nothing to do with his arc at all except for it being with Cersei
Especially if he was sitting on the privy to begin with because the prince from Dorne had poisoned him to die in that especially undignified way in revenge for what Tywin ordered or let happen to his sister. In the book it says Tywin's corpse stank so badly that one of the magisters those experience dealers with the dead was sick. Tywin wasn't the only person obsessed with revenge and his family's rep.
I always considere Tywin to be one of the most tragic characters in ASoIAF. Born in a rich but failing family because of his father's poor leadership, he essentially spent his entire childhood suffering slights, insults and getting stepped over while being powerless to do anything about it because of his father. He worked really hard to raise his house from the ashes, gathering the respect of his friends and foes alike, and even the love of his brothers like Genna and Kevan, but most importantly he could marry his beloved Joanna and have a happy life with her. But as the time goes on, his own great capabilities as a ruler end up working against him, gathering the envy of King Aerys, one who once called him a good friend, who ended up becoming very similar to Tytos in a couple of ways, aka becoming the reason why he couldn't stop suffering slights and mockeries, only that this time Aerys partook in humiliating Tywin and also Joanna. And then, the hard earned happiness he had was ripped away from him when Tyrion was born. Joanna died giving birth to a ''little monster made to remind Tywin that he shouldn't have put himself above the King''. Pretty much something inside Tywin broke and he literally didn't care anymore about anything but Lannister's legacy, becoming blind to anything else, something that in the end costed him both his life and his legacy as well. Compared to a lot of brutal and corrupt characters in the book and the show, Tywin is probably the one you can understand the most. Is it really a surprise that he became such a brutal, uncaring and petty man considering how much shit he had to endure since birth? It's the beauty of his tragedy: a man who reacted in the worst way possible to the misfortune he received, and ended up spreading the same misfortune he suffered tenfold.
it really depends what your opinion on Tywin is A great youtuber called Hills Alive made a wonderful video about him: th-cam.com/video/tLjZo3zkZwc/w-d-xo.html&t I will mostly be parroting her points but from my eyes Tywin: Believes he is above others simply because he is a Lannister, a spoiled manchild who pretends he is military and political genius, while having nothing to back it up. He is good at administration, sure, but he got kicked around by Robb so hard that he had to stoop as low as House Frey to win the war, in the worst and least sustainable way. Guess the brilliant strategy of "kill and burn anyone and anything that may oppose us" doesn't work that well huh?
Tywin didn’t really earn happiness, that’s not things work. He believed himself superior to everyone for being a Lannister, not being a good lord, good hand, good father nothing except his house which he did nothing to be born first to earn . Tywins delusions of grandeur infected Cersei and ruined her completely. Tywin much like the Baratheons brought the houses downfall on themselves for acting how they acted. Literally the only regret that I believe is that Tywin didn’t get a taste of the cruelty he doled out on others for literally no reason before he died
This and the take I put up a few days are go are insanely spot-on, it can be easy to overlook how good of a story-writer GRRM actually is until you go through the story of House Lannister forward from the last Blackfyre Rebellion, it’s genuinely tragic stuff, House Reyne aside of course (which is a great precedent to illustrate how much of an evil bastard Tywin could be)
I think Jamie, Cersei and Tyrion add their own brand of depthness to the story, in the books. In the show all of the complexities of those three die with Tywin.
@@WisteriaNerium i was about to say this the lannisters especially jaime are extremely complex or have become so and tyrion is sure to be a huge part of the rest of the series
On Tywin's humiliation weakness: I always imagined one of Olenna Tyrell's motivations for the Purple Wedding, beyond opportunity and "hiding in plain sight", was to have a public "hit" on Tywin's grandson. "To kill a man at a wedding, what sort of monster would do such a thing?" is not foreshadowing but relishing and bragging about her plans. So, while I never thought of Tywin that way, it does make sense.
Thank you for the video. In the show I was really enjoying Tywin, thanks to the marvellous Charles Dance. I saw him in many productions and he always, as an actor, is a force to be reckoned with...
The laughing. He never laughs or smiles. He distrusts both. A direct result of everyone always laughing at his Father and Family. So glad you pointed that out as that fact in and of itself led to the death's of thousands. The butterfly effect at it's most brutal.
I think Tywin's punishment of women reflects a seething hatred of women. It was Lady Tarbeck who planted the seeds of rebellion on the Castemeres and the Tarbecks, she used the wealth of Casterly Rock to rebuild her family and Twin must've known she had been trying to marry into the family for years. His father's mistress humiliated him by lording over everyone in Casterly and using his mother's clothes. Tyrion's first marriage made him feel less because his lowly son had the guile to marry a low born woman. And of course, Cersei's incompetence. He has a very deep misogynistic attitude, that goes beyond what is expected of a common Westerosi noble. And that rubbed off on Cersei to a degree, who views her own gender as less and is pretty hateful towards any other woman.
Head-canon, but I like to think Tywin really loved his mother and found Johanna to share many traits with her. He genuinely only had his guard down whenever he was with her, and two of the times he smiled was when he was with Johanna. Which is why he hated Lady Tarbeck, who tried to seduce Lord Tytos and his dad mistress who dares to use her clothes. In a way, maybe that answers why he thinks so lowly of Cersei, Cersei tries to emulate Tywin instead of her mother.
Should note, aside from growing up with single-dad Tywin (after Tyrion's birth), having to live as Robert's wife for over a decade did not help at all with Cersei's attitude towards women and gender in general. Even she realizes this later on in the books when she starts sleeping with Lady Taena.
I dont think he hates women. He crushes men and women equally ruthlessly. Crushing opposition that is opposing you is that crushing it. Also they do live in a patriarchal society.
I don't think he was initially misogynistic, because he utterly worshipped Joanna. He sees his children's failures as his own, and always blamed Tyrion for killing her. Not to mention he does respect Arya, because she's intelligent.
I saw Tywin’s biggest flaw was that despite his masterful ability of holding everything together, he never really teaches any of his children this. He despises Tyrion, treats Cersei like property and basically just tells Jaime to hurry up and figure out how to be a man and a leader. He did seem to genuinely love and enjoy his wife, Joanna. She even makes Tywin laugh.
I don’t think that’s necessarily a good thing. Joanna seemed to love Tywin back, and she was present when her husband punished Tytos’ mistress. What kind of woman would fall in love with a narcissistic abuser? Another narcissist, only one who knows how to hide it behind a noble face. The fact that Cersei and Jaime only remember their mother yelling at them and separating them, rather than explaining why incest is wrong, speaks volumes about Joanna’s parenting skills.
@@catherinecao4810 I haven’t read the books. Only seen videos talking about certain details. I was hoping to wait until they were completed but looks like that may not happen.
This timing is perfect cause I just finished reading the series a couple months ago. I always thought that Tywin deserved more appreciation for how good of a character he is because he's just as flawed and emotional as all the Lannisters (or anyone else) but then people always just only noticed how he portrayed himself when they talk about him. I liked your thoughts on it. Great video, can't wait for more Song of Ice and Fire!
Dude, that Tyrion’s birth killed Tywin’s beloved (or rather the only person who seemed to help proliferate his happiness) yet Tyrion was the child most like his father - in spite of the fact that Tyrion embodied Tywin’s fear of impotence & implicit contempt of senseless adultery in deference of House Lannister’s survival in a world where Great Houses (i.e. Tully, Frey, Baratheon etc.) seemed to collapse under the weight of their own geo-political importance - is such a fucking incredible cautionary tale. He essentially became his own contempt for his own father, inverted for Tyrion’s inherent yearning for love and respect, something Tytos as the Head of House Lannister was capable of in spite of the inter-house political problems that characteristic created. The story of Tywin & Tyrion Lannister is truly GRRM’s masterpiece. That’s the great Charles Dance was given an incredible source material to build his performance from was just MAGICAL. You could even posit that Tywin was (and Tyrion up until Season 8) the only spot where D&D didn’t compromise their source material
This is absolutely brilliant! By far the best analysis of tywin's psyche i've seen. The psychology of the characters and family relations are precisely the reason i love ASOIAF and especially house lannister so much. Please,please please do tywin's kids as well! P.S. i believe Tywin convinced himself that tyrion wasn't his son, in a massive effort to deny their "shameful" similarities. It worked alright, as the mad king was lustful, spiteful and had some low cunning as well.
I think you nailed it! The following is going to be quite a long read I think, but to expand on your evaluation... My impression is that a great part of Tywin's disdain for Tyrion is because he sees more of himself in Tyrion than he would like, and that he sees that Tyrion is, in many ways, actually doing a better job at being the man that Tywin aspires to be than Tywin is himself. For that, Tywin shames and belittles Tyrion to keep others' opinions of him low, lest he come to be viewed in higher esteem than Tywin is. Tywin cannot tolerate the possibility that he may be perceived (and thus humiliated) as lesser in any way than the "spiteful creature" that he detests. I believe that he secretly admires Tyrion's intelligence and the ease with which he handles people; Tyrion has a finesse in negotiating where Tywin must threaten and intimidate. Tywin envies Tyrion; he's generally happy and free of heavy responsibilities, he's also got friends and even found love again, and worst of all, people seem to actually LIKE him, not fear him. Tywin doesn't even seem to be THAT bothered by Tyrion's "lecherous behaviour" until he learns that Tyrion actually has feelings for a woman, then Tywin must destroy for Tyrion that which he envies (Taesha) or do his best to take it from him and have it for himself (Shea). He reacted in the same way when he returned to King's Landing after the Battle of the Blackwater and took Tyrion's place as Hand of the King. (Yes, I know it was meant to be his in the first place, but...) He gave Tyrion no praise or recognition whatsoever for doing his duty to the family by filling in for him, nor any thanks for his saving King's Landing from siege by Stannis and even gave the Tyrells sole credit for doing so. He could not abide that Tyrion had proven, once again, to be a better at something than he was himself. One of the best lines in the show is spoken by Tyrion as advice to Jon Snow, who was feeling hurt when others called him a bastard: -- "Never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armour, and it can never be used to hurt you." That alone demonstrates that Tyrion may, in fact, be the ONLY Lannister Lion that truly does not concern himself with the opinions of the sheep! Tywin, of course, cannot admit to such inner turmoil, and so it outwardly manifests as disgust and disdain toward Tyrion, which he justifies by blaming him for the death of his mother, and shaming him for his "drinking and whoring." He outwardly projects that the whoring is what disgusts him most, but I think that if, as you say, he likely had his own experience with such activities, that what actually disgusts him is his own reflection, again, in an otherwise honourable man he will not even call his son. Well that's my two coppers, at least... :) Thank you for these fantastic insights! :) Your whole "Psychology of" series is brilliant! It's been years now, and I still find myself drawn back to the show and the books, mostly because of the depth of so many of the characters. My frustrations with G.R.R.M.'s excruciatingly slow writing is much countered by his skill in creating these characters that are so well-developed that sometimes it's easy to forget that they are fictional. ♥ [EDIT: about 12 hours later... I wrote all of this before seeing that you'd also done a video on Tyrion, in which you did cover much of this. Oops!]
brillianr analysis!! it's the first video of yours that i've seen so far and it was an incredible watch, so thank u only want to highlight another thing about tywin: he doesn't just need control and an upperhand in all situations, he doesn't just need people to give him the result he seeks - he also demands a total compliance in the process and procedural details. it's been very well highlighted in his first appearance - the man of his status most certainly doesn't need to butcher and take apart the stag himself, he has legions of servants who would gladly do it for him, yet he has very little trust in their abilty to do things as he wants them done, so he gets to work.
Enjoyed that :) i think the world breaks most of the characters in the books, as said earlier I think some of the interesting tweaks change things a little, like the kings guards not being allowed to inherit and sire children, this adds to not being able to get rid of Tyrion as he is a backup to inheriting the house (partly why he would rather not have him "marrying") but still wants to torture him because he killed Joanna by birthing. Ignoring and secreting Jaime and cersis' affair is as stated above a great crime so would threaten the house (not so much incest but the White Guard issue).
Tywin is widely regarded as brilliant but is that because a lot of his actions have just so happened to work out for him. His most atrocious actions were lead by his emotions which subsequently led to the demise of his house. No one even cares that he’s dead.
An excellent analysis. Especially when considering that you are not an ASOIAF book nerd. Even bringing up relevant points from the show. (suppresses the urge to spit at mention of the show)
I wrote this comment under a different Tywin video, but it fits well here too: I think Tywin’s father confused love for respect while Tywin confused fear for respect. Tywin’s father wanted to be loved by his people. He gave them whatever they wanted and never got angry, but, as a result, he never earned their respect. Tywin has done everything he can to make people fear him. He responds to any insult with an excessive amount of brutality. When some houses refused to pay him back, he massacred them all. When Catelyn captured Tyrion, he sent the Mountain to burn and pillage the river lands. He threatens people to get what he wants by sending “potential allies” a singer to perform The Rains of Castermere. I don’t think he ever earned true respect because everyone is constantly plotting to overthrow the Lannisters. They show no respect for his name or his legacy by planning to tear it all down. Ned was someone who earned people’s respect. Even after his death, his legacy is respected. The north went to war for him. Even after they’re defeated, the Manderly’s go out of their way to put Rickon back in Winterfell. The Northern men despise Ramsay for hurting “Ned Stark’s little girl.” Nothing like this happens for Tywin. People acknowledge that he is smart and effective. Many fear him, but nobody respects him because his actions have hurt everyone in some way, shape, or form. His power came from his willingness to act as brutally as possible. As a result, he left his family with a kingdom full of people who want revenge.
When Lord Tywin's hair began to recede, he shaved his head. Lord Tywin doesn't believe in doing things in half measures. That line from the book sums him up
I think you are pretty much spot on with everything. One thing you did not mention is the possibility of Tyrion being son of Aerys and Joanna. If you are not aware, some people believe Tyrion might secretly be Targaryen, because Aerys had designs on Tywin's wife and some people think maybe he is Tyrion's father. Personally I do not think that is the case, but I think maybe that is what Tywin believes or at least suspects. That is probably why he is repeatedly denying that Tyrion is his son and how he justifies all the horrible treatment of him.
I wish you would've gone more in detail about Tywin's relationship with his children, though in a way, maybe that would fit better into individual videos about these children. You said really everything when it comes to Tywin's side of it. All of the Lannister kids are such complex characters, and I find their relationship to their father -- especially AFTER their father's death most striking. In a way, it seems they all learned something from their father. Whether they can use that for a positive or negative outcome ultimately though depends on them. In that, I find it most fascinating how these traits and the image Tywin created (which are often looked at in a very negative light as they concern Cersei or Tyrion) can also be used positively. When it comes to the Lannisters after Tywin's death, the general consensus seems to be (as also in your video) that his actions and traits that made his family big will also probably destroy it, mostly due to how these actions affected Tyrion (splintering away from the family, joining Dany and possibly in the future coming back with three dragons and a desire for vengeance -- though it's unclear if he would just kill Cersei or also seek further revenge on Jaime, as he seems to be conflicted about that) and Cersei (the way she rules King's Landing, thinking she is tywin reborn, just better, and doesn't really seem to make a lot of friends there -- even alienating her own uncle and brother). And this perspective is certainly fitting. However, on a positive note, we also shouldn't ignore that Tywin's reputation and lessons had a great part when Jaime took Riverrun without spilling any blood. And that's where this whole thing becomes a lot more complicated. Jaime is maybe in regards to his relationship to Tywin the child who's least talked about, even if he maybe took the lessons he drew from Tywin's life and death in the most positive way. It shows that ultimately, Tywin despite his many flaws, is a character you can learn from and as his son, Jaime can take advantage of his reputation. Whether that "inheritance" is to be used ina positive or negative way, toward the family's goals, his own personal goals or a "general good", depends mostly on the character individually.
23:16 Oh wow, Tywin witnessed someone "humiliating a man through the women in his life" when he was just a child, when Walder Frey convinced Tytos to promise his only daughter to the second son of a House most families consider a significant lesser.
@@Kharis- The most common misunderstanding of the term, "control your emotions" is that most people thinks this means that you must (essentially) consciously control your feelings. This is incorrect. To "control" your emotions is to learn how to control your reactions to your emotions. You allow yourself to feel what you will but you react in a way that is productive to the situation or your goals. This is not to be confused with "bottling it up", either. To "bottle" your emotions is to bury or compartmentalize them ... Ignore them. Controlling your reactions is essentially conditioning yourself to be more in control of yourself. Like anything, the more you exercise it, the easier it becomes.
I feel not analyzing Cersei's relationship with Tywin was a missed opprotunity, especially because in the books, she constantly justifies her rule as regent as a literal continuation of Tywin's legacy and a indeed an improvement over him, much like Tywin regarding his own father. In the show, the plot develops Cersei as first clumsy and self-destructive, but unlike book Cersei (at least for now) show Cersei eventually does become a master political strategist, destroying all of her rivals an attaining the right to sit the Iron Throne even though she has nor right or legitimacy to do so largely because in one stroke, she destroys all those who would challenge her in the Great Sept in a blistering callback to Reynes and Tarbecks.
He had a bitterly sarcastic manner and was very intimidating with that cold death stare that looked right through you, but he had a softer side not many people would see as he cared for Arya.
Loved this! Please do more videos about GOT (focusing on the earlier seasons lol)!You deserve SO MANY more views than you get on videos like this! Much love ❤️
I think there is a lot in the story Oberyn told Tyrion at Jeoffreys wedding, about how he was promised to Cersei and Elia to Jaime, when Joanna was still alife. That the lady of Casterly Rock and the Princess of Dorne were great friends, but when the Dornish arrived at the Rock, Joanna just had died, Tywin was cold, he offered Tyrion to Elia. And then the Princess of Dorne proceeded to get HER daughter married to Rhaegar instead of Cersei. And that even though Aerys dispised the Dornish, so I guess Dorans and Oberyns mother must have been a diplomatic powerhouse. And she "cheated" Tywin out of his "right" to Rheagars hand in marriage. That had an influence on how Tywin came down on Kings Landing. Imagine having a grugde so hart you punish a CITY for it. And I might misremember, but I think Tywins sister said that he never smiled after Joannas death, but Ned remembered a grim smile over the children of Rheagar (or rather Elia. Tywin had her legacy taken because she had dared to win over Cersei). And Tywins funeral, how he stank (likely a metaphor for his being rotten on the inside), how nobody really cared, except for Cersei who has quite the breakdown. Like with Oberyns daughters we can see a facet (or more) in each of his children: Jaime (his aunt claims there is some of all of her brothers in him, except Tywin, but I do not think she knew her brother well enough, even though she is perceptive for a Lannister) is his guilt, his feeling of not being enough. Cersei is his ambition, the fight against the prior generation (like she wants him to be remembered only because SHE is his daughter), his narcisstic tendencies. And Tyrion... He is all that Tywin said, only that Tywin himself failed to see that in himself, too. I am only wondering if maybe the marriage of Tywin and Joanna might not have been all roses and daisies and if maybe he was not faithful to her (he was separated from her for long stretches of time and even though only Tyrion and Cersei seem to drink to cope, maybe Tyrions other coping mechanism was shared by Tywin?). Also I have wondered about the parallels the Lannisters might have to the House of Denethor in the Lord of the Rings (even though Faramir is no dwarf and Boromir had no twin sister.
Really interesting take on a great character. I always saw him a competent to the point of being sociopathic... willing to pay whatever cost for the most sensible and beneficial result ("Tell me why it is more moral to kill 10,000 men in battle than a dozen at dinner." and so on). And with this being the case, his father's jovial manner would have not made any sense to him - an inefficient personality in pole position. And in some sort of Nietzschian reality, his strongest will is what got him into pole position for the majority of his life. I never really visualised him as having such an egotistical personality, and now that I think about it, it adds an interesting layer to him. Tempted to go back and watch/read him all over again and see which take jumps to me as being his motivation.
@@deanjustdean7818 Sad but true - the more brutal the world, the more brutal the leadership becomes. It's what makes the Stark-Lannister story so gutting for me... it's so realistic. The Starks have benevolence and mercy in their approach, which is beautiful, but costs them their strength against the enemy because they can't risk losing Sansa and Arya. Tywin, on the other hand, loses Jaime and immediately replaces him with Tyrion. Benevolence vs pragmatism... unfortunately I think it's all too realistic that the latter won the war
I'm only about halfway through the vid, but one thing about Tywin that I always thought interesting was the immense evidence that he had a "secret tunnel" built from the Hands tower to the city brothel, while showing his complete hatred for "Whores" throughout the books it seems he's a john as well.
Would you ever consider covering Mr. Robot? There are lots of good therapy scenes and the show tackles the main characters' mental health extremely interestingly. I'd love to hear your thoughts.
I believe Tywin had 3 dominant characteristics. The intellect, the snake, and the warrior. Though unfortunately they were split among his three children. Tyrion is the genius and the best at strategy and political power. Jaime was the warrior through and through. Lastly Cersie was the snake, always doing things behind the scenes just like her father. Tywin was unable to unify them together due to his pride and dehumanizing Tyrion.
I really feel like I was educated properly as to Tywin's mindset, as I definitely held both opinions of Tywin being a reprehensible dickhead and being a super-efficient badass all at once. I think people who like him feel really out of control at times look to him and through him, they feel that power, that control. But I think as a therapist, you're maybe a lot closer to how George R.R. Martin himself sees Tywin. I think given that GRRM is famously anti-war, he wouldn't see someone like Tywin as a badass, but as an ultimately fragile man who feels out of control most of the time, and externalises that shame onto others. And people pay for it with their lives. This was a great video.
In regards toTywin making his father's mistress make a "Walk of Atonemenmt", I believe you overlooked the tactical aspect of that act. This was a clear declaration to all that his father's era. an era of weakness, was over. There was a coldpracticality to it, as well as the layers of control and perhaps a bit o underlying jealously as well. Tywin is brilliantly written as complex, layered,and as nuanced as any sharacter in fiction other than Elric of Melnibone.
Restore does not equal make notorious .However I like you channel and have subscribed. I see in Tywin, the fear that drives so many men to believe that he must be in control, as he trusts no ones motives but his. He trusts no no one's execution but his own. He wants control. He admires intelligence, but believes no one's judgement compares to his.
I don't think Tywin has any sexuality, just utter pragmaticism. When he uses women against men, he shows them A) look at your weakness, it's punishing you B) I don't have that weakness, contrary to popular belief I am better than you in ALL aspects, even the lowest of humanity Watch again how he is killed: with his pants down, witnessed relieving himself from thd lowest of human urges. That's the situation that Tyrion finds the guts, pardon the pun, to pull the trigger.
Often, I think, people overstate their accomplishments to distract from their insecurities. Maybe he was strong and formidable. But maybe...he didn't see himself that way. And that was his problem.
28:17 nah, I don’t think Tywin built it. It‘s not easy to just add secret passages to an existing castle, especially one already as cluttered as the Red Keep. But did Tywin use it? Probably.
Tyrion a known socialite in Westeros who has the ability to keep the company of the small folk that many Lords of a powerful prominent House can't do or won't feel comfortable without showing their nobility off, from Tyrion's journey to visiting the Wall til the moment he's kidnapped by Catelyn then being taking to the Vale
As an asoiaf book nerd, I think to fully examine him you should look onto his siblings (Genna and Kevan's insights are great here, also I think Kevan is as great as Tywin but without this huge insecurities, but Gerion the adventurer too) and to Aerys and Joanna relationship. The thing with Aerys is much deeper I think - that maybe being humilated by his earlier friend feeded insecurities. The sack of King's Landing is also another brutal act like Castamere and Red Wedding.
Right off the bat: being the best character in the books isn't mutually exclusive from evil villain. But the badass genius mastermind is a stretch. He's the definition of neglecting micro for the macro.
To be fair on Tywin. His dad IS a mockery with or without Tywin. Money keep a family living and Tytos just lend it away. Ruler isn't supposed to be a yes man on a group, no one is, but Tytos. Multiple times, I think four, the King have to send hisown army to help Lannister take care of Bandits (?) simply because Tytos is just too "kind" to make sure the security on the Westerlands is kept. Tytos is not pure bad but he is bad. I don't think it is fair to analyze his mockery because Tywin try to fix house Lannister and their rule over Westerlands.
Tytos was very bad, and Tywin ofcourse wanted, and arguably suceeded in fixing his house. BUT that doesn't mean a) his methods were the only possible route to doing this and b) that the whole experience didn't have a big affect on his upbringing
Kinda off topic but have you ever seen howls moving castle? If so I think it would be a great movie for you to talk about. One of my favorite positive love stories.
He’s the greatest lord and the most powerful person in Westeros. He had won all the war in his lifetime and technically conquered the 7 kingdoms in his palm but he will always lose that one war, the one and only war, he lost the war within himself 🥹☹️🥲.
There is also the fact that Tywin got Elia Martell to be raped and killed. While killing targaryen children to reinforce Baratheon rule makes sense, killing elia Martell rather than using her as a negotiation for Dorne, and making lifelong enemies doesn't make much sense. I think this was personal as well. Tywin wanted to humiliate Aerys and Rhaegar.
If you’ll entertain a more simple reading of Tywin, I think his overall archetype is pretty simple and obvious. He’s the lion from the Aesop tale “the lion’s share”
His decisions 'not being entirely being logical' I would put in another way - he wants to say he's being rational, but really he's just rationalizing his brutal methods and mindset to achieve absolute control, as you put it. He's great at how he does it...but terrible at why he should do it. This was expressed in his first scene with Jaime, to shut down a valid point of his: "If any one of us can be captured with impunity, we are no longer a house to be feared - that's a fact!" and then orders Jaime, his favored son, to the frontline so he gets captured as it all spirals out of control. And heaven forfend his house ever stop being feared by even a little, because then people might laugh again like during Tytos' reign. But rationalizing and projecting your flaws onto Tyrion is common when one has daddy issues, which Tywin most definitely does - he tries to be the exact opposite of him, which leads him to become a cold and uncaring person, which ultimately dooms his relationship with his children and leads to his death. Don't think it's quite fair to blame him for Aeyrs' - his insanity came from, ironically, Barristan Selmy saving him from his dungeon stay so...one could definitely argue that Selmy is far more responsible for things going bad in the kingdom through a genuinely noble deed. So Tywin feeling frustrated by it and feeling that his adulation at the expense of the King should be some small recompense seems fairer and more understandable, despite his own already natural inclination to feel entitled to it. Finally, his grotesque punishments of Tyrion is easily understandable - he never felt he was truly his son, he sees how attached Tyrion is to sex and women, so he decides to use them himself in order to punish him the most he possibly could. He does actually say several times during the show also 'You are my son', whenever it is convenient for him to say so, if he needs something from Tyrion, but during the beginning of season 3 (that you showed) and at the very end of season 4 you have two scenes that give you his true feelings. The ones that have driven him to all of his bad decisions that were anything but pragmatic. Like when Tyrion was already considering going along with the trial and just leave for the Wall, but then Tywin has to call Shae and shame him one last time and that drives Tyrion to spit in his face in fury, and eventually end him.
Ruthless. Consummate administrator. Great at setting policy. He should have overcome his dislike of Tyrion. Had he utilized his son better the StateCraft they could have implemented would have had no equal.
Tyrion was a perfect representation of his father, weak to his vices, yet powerful in ability. Tyrion was all the fear tywin had to his name, a representation visually of how tywin felt for the actions shown, and a mirror to his father. The glory and fear of the rains of castamere, killed by a dwarf on the pot as the most helpless he could have been. I honestly don't agree with him caring what others think for personal reasons, it's shown and stated that tywin did what he did if he saw it as a benefit to himself. He punished bakers for mixing sawdust in their bread, but only so the people would be more accepting of his deeds under aerys. He did everything with purpose and buried emotions so deep it became his poison, to rule through fear rather than respect is what cost him, forgetting the lessons of the past, his own past of doing what benefits others to benefit himself, now he only cares about his legacy as a ruler, and died the most disgraceful way possible.
Except his interest in ruling through fear and building a legacy stem from personal reasons. Also he clearly didn't bury his emotions that deep when considering his relationship with tyrion.
The biggest word battles I get in the ASOIAF fandom is with the people who either view Tywin as only a strategical badass or cunning villain. I always poise the question: why not both? Can we not abhor his horrible actions and also appreciate the mettle of his character? Needless to say, for some reason, these conversations do not end well.
Tywin punished his fathers mistress because she was wearing his late mother's jewelry and ordering around the servants as if she was anything more than a mistress. It had nothing to do with jealousy or resentment toward his father.
It had everything to do with resentment toward his father. Would she have had the ability to do that without his father's permission or disregard? Her behavior was a demonstration of his father's weaknesses which he saw as a reflection of himself. You're reading the text, but this video explains the subtext.
Tywin was an idiot for permitting the Red Wedding. It was then that the North basically won the war. They just didn't know it. All that the Northmen had to do in order to gain their independence was retreating behind the Neck and have southern invasions of them fail time after time again as they had all done since the start of the Andal invasion, untill Aegon would finally arrive with his dragons. Tywin had no dragons. He had no means of taking the Neck and Moat Cailin from the south or to hold the coastal areas for long after a potential naval attack in the east. Robb had no way of retreating North though, not with his alliance with the Freys being broken. Tywin could have used this in order to force him to agree terms, which in turn would have secured the Iron Throne's hold on the North for generations to come. Northmen generally tend to have a cultural bias in favor of the status quo after all. And a marriage alliance - p.e. between Sansa and Tommen since one to Tyrion might be perceived as too much of a slight by the Northern Lords - would deliver him a permanent hostage against further attempts of Robb to break free. He could have negotiated a pact with Walder Frey to let Robb return North and have even helped him clean house with the Ironborn, which would have officially ended the war with any side but a worn out Stannis, WHO WOULD NO LONGER BE ABLE TO FIND ANY ALLIES TO HIS CLAIM. But instead.... He managed to insult the Northern gods in the worst way possible and break the holiest of their traditions: the guestright.... From that moment on he cemented himself, House Lannister and King's Landing as "enemy entities" to anybody in the North.... All that the Northmen needed to do from that moment on, was retreating, killing the Boltons and declaring independence. Sure, this way they might lose the last remaining hostages at the Twins, yet those were few in numbers and the slight might have been great enough to risk it, especially to those whom no longer had anyone to lose. Also, with winter being around the corner and Roose's new heir being a widely loathed criminal, a large scale conflict disfavouring the Boltons seems practically inevitable. Strangely enough, EVEN ROBERT turned out to be a better ruler then Tywin: he knew how to turn enemies into allies. Tywin had built his myth of being a great statesman on blood and tears, yet in the end, that's all that it turned out to be: a myth.... a song that was performed for the minor houses in the Westerlands....
One incredibly strong and ruthless leader. He would have been a great King if he wasn't so ruthless. I do admire him in a way though. I think he's had to be tough just to survive and get to the top.
Hope you all enjoy this one! Considering the limited information about his past, there was a lot to discuss. If you want ones on Tyrion, Jaime, and Cersei, give the video a like or some sort of supportive action...I dunno, just glad you're watching, really.
Patreon link: patreon.com/mylittlethoughttree
Instagram link: instagram.com/little_thought_tree
Jaime and Cersei’s relationship would be cool to analyze. Have you thought of doing a video on Arya?
@My Little Thought Tree the series i mentioned was called Des starred David Tennant as the serial killer Dennis Nilsen, was a 2020 series
You have to check out Arcane. It has a wealth of characters to analyze.
Rorge and Biter. 👀
I think at 8:15 with the remark of, "What crimes?" I think it's important to remember that Tytos did everything but abdicate his lordship after his sons returned from war. The world book states that he left more and more of the running of things to Tywin. So Tywin was acting as his father's Hand essentially when he first demanded either repayments or hostages from their vassals that owed them money. More than half the houses under them refused while the Reynes as the leaders of this power block laughed and refused to comply. This is already a punishable crime in a feudal society. So it's not unreasonable for Tywin to jail Lord Tarbek. They respond by kidnapping their liege Lord's relatives which is pretty much the highest form of treason they could've committed shy of actually killing them. Also Tywin used the incident of calling for repayment or hostages to see who was still loyal to House Lannister. It was from the compliant houses he drew his levies in preparation to blitzkrieg the Reynes and Tarbeks when they entered open rebellion. How do you think Tywin had such overwhelming force at the ready when his enemies weren't even able to fully muster their own forces and allies before they were already beaten?
I was particularly thrilled to see you noted that Tywin's "stealing" of Shae from Tyrion was an acknowledgement that Tyrion *is* actually a rival and threat. I remember having a huge "a-HA!" moment while reading the book and encountering that scene.
I had this moment when I rewatched the death scene and noted how Charles Dance delivered “she’s a whore” with hesitancy, it’s the only time Tywin utters something that he’s not sure if it’s empirical fact or not. He knows she’s a whore from a brothel, but that won’t change the fact that Tyrion loves her, which to Tywin stands as a ridiculous, folly-filled way for him to get back at his greatest enemy: his own son. He’s not sure if he can appeal to his son’s own political ambition anymore. So if he keeps saying it, hopefully it’ll resonate as truth and the Imp will come to his senses.
whoops, incorrect, he shot me
Tywin heard that Shae called Tyrion her “giant of Lannister” and was like “damn . . . That’s not a bad idea”
I understand Varys may have played a role in Shae's move from Tyrion to Tywin, actually. Further, that Tywin may have been poisoned in a way that would make it extremely difficult to ever move his bowels, such that Tyrion's crossbow-murder was superfluous.
@@isaacsanford6340 The poisoning was probably due to Oberyn since we dont see Tywin with this affliction until Oberyn ( Expert in poisoning ) arrived at the capital
I think for someone who needs to feel in control of everything, losing a beloved wife in childbirth to a disabled baby would be his worst nightmare. He didn't have any power to save his wife, and he didn't have any power over Tyrion's dwarfism, it, like many disabilities, just happened by chance. It's sad he can't see Tyrions value because of this, insanely intelligent, charming and good hearted. Tyrion not only makes Tywin angry and disappointed but he is also a living reminder of Tywins biggest fear; impotence.
Probably doesn’t help that Tyrion is the most like him of all Tywins children. Even Tywins sister says so to Jamie in AFFC
It was Tywins seed so... Really. Tywin killed his wife. The seed is strong.
Tyrion is not good hearted in the books lol
@@mschell8022 not after he commits Patricide, before then he was indefinitely a noble man.
I felt Cercei was more like him than all of them. And Tywin never noticing her truly hurt.
I actually thought that was his most interesting relationship dynamics . And the disappointment in Jamie was interesting too!
Tywin was always a character I always wanted to know more about.
I imagine Joanna must have been something like Margaery Tyrell, someone who is also ambitious but in her own arena that would just bolster him and not take away from him.
I can definitely see that. Joanna wouldn't have been a threat, but an addition to his own prestige.
She must have been a truly amazing woman. She made him laugh twice, according to the books! That’s a huge deal!!!
Nerd nigga
I think she had qualities of both Tommen (sweet and devoted) and Arya (smart and sassy)
The Joanna/Jeyne Marbrand character was said to regulate Tywin and made him more human in spite of her own political talents. Would be a fascinating character to see portrayed, proto-Cersei with just a touch of Catelyn Tully’s ability to humanise her career soldier/politician of a husband
The passage I always remember about Tywin was "He threatened to smile," and its such a terrible thing!! Gives me goosebumps to remember.
I think the depths of his denial speak volumes of his character. Tywin never, for 20 years made any contingency plans for his inheritance. Jaime become a Kingsguard at 15 and remained one. Yet, Tywin seemingly refuses to acknowledge that Jaime will not inherit from him at some point. He scoffs at Cersei's ambition and is repulsed by Tyrion's claim. Yet, he doesn't remarry to sire more worthy sons. He sees marriages as bargaining tools, a transaction, yet he doesn't do the obvious thing himself. Nor does he favours one of his nephews to train up for the role. That's some narcissistic delusions right there.
Damn that’s a good point
I always wondered why he didn’t fight Jaime harder on that point. When Jaime said he was going back to the kingsguard after returning home, he basically just said fine.
I enjoyed this analysis but I do think there were a couple things missed. Genna Lanister (Tywin's sister) speaks to Jamie about how she loved Tywin after his death, because he was the only one who spoke out against their father betrothing her to one of the Freys. The marriage proposal was so bad that other lords laughed at it, but Tywin was the only one to actually object. I think perhaps too much symapthy is given to Tytos in the beginning here. I don't think it's entirely fair to characterize Tywin's hatred of his own father as ego. On some level I think that's correct, but Tytos wasn't just a gentle ruler that other lords laughed at. He was doing real harm to the Lannister family. I've always found Tywin's relationship with his siblings to be quite interesting in that you might expect someone who was so cold, and cruel to be feared by his siblings, but both seem to give him a great deal of respect and not out of fear, and they genuinely seem to mourn his passing. To me this indicates that he wasn't always cold and cruel and perhaps started out with better intentions than he is often given credit for. That's not to say he is in the right by flooding a castle and drowning everyone inside, but I think younger Tywin may not have been as willfully cruel or petty as older Tywin.
Something else to note is that there is a theory that Tyrion is actually the son of Joanna and Aerys II as it's mentioned that Aerys always lusted after Tywin's wife, and that Tywin tried to resign as Hand of the King after Aerys "insulted" his wife during a tournament. Less than a year later Tyrion was born. While this may or may not be the case I think it makes a lot of sense that Tywin may have believed, or have been suspicious of this himself. Tyrion's an insult to him not just because he's a dwarf, but because it's Aerys killing his wife.
If Tyrion is illegitimate then that means Johanna's image to Tywin's mind is destroyed even while she's still alive. She's no longer the pure and chaste wife if she had sexual relations with someone else, making her like all the other "whores" Tywin despised and used to humiliate other men. Only in this case Tywin was the one humiliated. If Tywin believed the pregnancy wasn't his child, he may have been horrid to Johanna during her last months, and she died before Tywin could ever apologize.
I agree, I didn't intend to make it sound all sympathetic to Tytos. Whilst there is a space for kinder qualities in Westeros, it cannot come at the expense of strength. Tywin had many good reasons for the actions he took growing up, ofcourse he did...but that doesn't mean those experiences then informed the person he became
Also that's a great point about Aerys. I'd vaguely heard that theory but I hope it's not true. Either way, the possibility of it would give Tywin another reason to hate his son, yeah
@@mylittlethoughttree I definitely agree in hoping that the Aerys theory is not true. Tyrion and Tywin are such great foils for each other it would ruin some of the effect, but I do really like the idea that Tywin thought it was true. Anyway I did really enjoy the video, and I hope I didn't sound too critical. I would love to hear you talk about Jamie or Sansa sometime.
Excellent points!!
@@BosesBjorn tyrion does look very weird in the books so might be a targ bastard
Tywin's treatment of Arya in the show I think was meant to build on Cersi's back story. Since she either says in the show, or it's mentioned in the books that She used to dress as if she was Jaime, and because they were twins she could get away with being a man. Arya is dressed as a Boy, when she first becomes Tywin's cup barer and he catches her. He tells her that she reminds him of someone he used know. Probably his Daughter, or maybe Joanna was the same way, which would paint a complete picture. Cersi remarks later how she would have been the son her Father wanted, if she had only been a man. Because she listened to every word he ever said. she learned to Sword fight like Arya, since she used to pretend to be Jaime, and could do things that boys did or men do. Even in the books she takes on sort of being the man in her relationship with the one Lady she sleeps with. So I think Tywin, at least in the show prized women sort of over stepping the more female roles. For Challenging him the way you were saying. over all though this was a great Video, thanks for the entertainment.
I doubt he like females who step out of societal roles considering he explicitly didn't want cersei to practice with swords.
Your insight comparing the stability of the Lannisters and the Starks after the deaths of their patriarchs is brilliant and could be a video on its own, especially in the broader scope of fiction in general. Authoritarian, insecure power is ethereal because it lacks the key ingredient to sustained strength: distribution. A leader has to be willing and able to build up those around them, especially the next generation, if the progress they've made is to be sustained. By its nature that practice can lead to challenges to the leader's authority, which Tywin is loth to tolerate. That is so cool and the contrast had never occurred to me before.
You rock. Please never stop making these.
Let's not forget that the Stark children only win due to ridiculous amounts of plot armor.
@@vaxrvaxr Yeah, I think that's my main issue with this comparison as well.
So far, the Lannister vasals have been more loyal than the Stark vassals/allies (Boltons, Greyjoy's, Frey... even Theon ended up betraying the family, though he clearly regrets it. So yeah, while the Starks also have a bunch of 'The North Remembers' houses, it's not like there wasn't huge amounts of betrayal too. The North Remembers and there always has to be a Stark in winterfell, also seem to mostly just be based on tradition and superstition. (Something that Tywin who was born into a time when nobody respected his house, wouldn't have at his disposal to such a degree). And the main reason why the Starks are still powerful is magic. Bran has magic. Cat has magic. Jon is either dead or has magic. And Arya will probably get some magic. Rickon, I don't know. The only one who doesn't really get power by magic yet is Sansa, and Sansa is also treated as a pawn by characters, Ned would've considered an ally, in a very unstable position and very vulnerable.
It seems like if the Lannisters lose, it's more so because they have neither Dragons, Old Gods, Fire Lord, or Faceless God Magic on their side. Not because Tywn was mean to Tyrion.
@@deanjustdean7818 I agree with your point, but not exactly with your example. Tyrion is the one that learned the most from Tywin, and Tywin seems to send him on the missions that require the most intelligence (cleverness?) to solve. When the sewer system at Casterly Rock needs work (a logistical and engineering nightmare, I'm sure) he sends Tyrion. Yes it's a gross job, but I think that's just a bonus for Tywin. When he needs the realm properly looked after, he sends Tyrion.
I think where it breaks down is Tywin never taught his kids anything about controlling/redirecting their emotions, which leads them down the wrong path *every* time. They get flustered and need revenge for their wounded ego, or they get into a problem with someone whose actions are fueled by emotion, and they don't know what to do against it, bc they never got any emotional instruction from their father, and mom wasn't there
@@thesayes6231 It is my opinion that the Lannisters would have been stronger if Tywin would have embraced Tyrion- he has the most ability to think like his dad, but I think the real difference is the Lannisters cultivate fear of what they'll do if you cross them, where the Starks have a reputation for honor and all that. Their bannermen know they can trust the Starks, and that they'll rule with the same stolid fairness they have for years untold.
There was definitely betrayal all over the place, but for the Starks, it came from people they knew weren't very trustworthy to begin with, vs the Lannisters, who look at everyone outside their house as a potential enemy. Esp. Cat, but a lot of the early Stark pages mention how sketchy the Boton/Freys are, and though Theon is raised as another Stark kid, he's still a hostage to try to keep the Greyjoys in line.
I guess I'm saying the Lannisters never know where the knife in the back is coming from, but the Starks do- their friends are friends and their frenemies are known.
@@BaldingClamydia i didn't mean to say that Tywin's behavior wasn't harmful. Just that to draw the conclusion that because of their different behavior tge stak vassals are more loyal is a fallacy. Most stark vassals are loyal for reasons of pride and tradition, even superstition, not that they loved Ned or Robb specifically. And in general, on average, so far neither are all Stark vassals loyal, far from it, nor do we have any reason really to doubt the Westerner's loyalty.
To only blame Tywin's treatment of Tyrion fr the lannister problems is also imo short sighted. It somewhat reflects a 21st century perspective, where ableism and emotional abuse are finally taken seriously. That is not the same in the GoT world. I don't say that to excuse the behavior, but simply to point at the widespread ableism in that society. Meaning, no matter how smart or capable tyrion is, even if he were to rule, he would not garner the respect of his vassals. They don't take him seriously and when they do, it's because he's Tywin's son and Jaime's brother. Tyrion wants to rule because it is his right. Tywin doesn't want to let him rule because he hates him and is ashamed of him. We like to therefore blame tywin for the results of this conflict, because morally he is undoubtedly in the wrong. But the best for the Lannisters would be for Jaime to rule. In that sense the worst that happened for the lannister family from a power-perspective, is for Jaime to refuse to leave the Kingsguard. That is what Tywin is working toward, therefore Tywin is in fact doing what he can to convince Jaime. So he is working toward the best result.
(Certainly Robb didn't know where the knife was coming from. Neither did Ned. And to a degree not even Jon. It's a weird argument since both ofthem were clearly betrayed by people they trusted.)
Could you do a video on Stannis? He’s personaly my favorite character, and i just love the way he keeps going no matter the circumstances. I’d say his personality is very interesting, especially since his two brothers are the polar opposites of him and each other
That would be a very fun video to make
@@mylittlethoughttree Yes! I would love a video on Stannis. He's got so many facets to his character, and there's also a lot of his backstory and experiences described in the text WITHOUT him ever getting a POV chapter. So it would be very fascinating to do a deep dive into how he sees the world.
I enjoy the Stannis chapters too, but I have to say that he is as utterly immoral as Tywin Lannister is. Stannis pretends to righteousness, but the longer he pursues "his birthright" the more egregious his violations of law, custom, culture, and responsibility become. Based on what's written, he feels absolutely no remorse for Renly's murder, burning former followers, or sacrificing innocents to buy R'hollr's favor or a miracle. He arrives at a place in which he has convinced himself that ANY action that advances his goals is de facto justified. He isn't as cruel as Tywin, but every bit as entitled and willing to sacrifice anything or anyone for power. It is fair to point out that he begins on solid ground. Based on the information provided to him by Ned Stark, he is indeed the rightfully heir to Rober's throne. But around the same period, he becomes radicalized by Melisandre and her fire god's magic/power/visions. Stannis, in my estimation, would have been the most disastrous ruler, and was headed directly into Westeros's version of the Inquisition/Auto da fé.
Dude, Stannis and Renly were the fascinating Baratheon brothers. Robert was doomed to his own alcoholism from the start, and his heart-break over a woman he can barely remember is the true heart of A Song of Ice & Fire, making him a tragic MacGuffin more than anything else, which, as sad as that is, his brothers - a career military commander and master politician respectively - gave his character depth in contrast
I would love to see that. I didn't like how the show portrayed him as a villain; in the books, he doesn't want to be king, but feels obligated to take the throne as a means of honoring Robert's legacy.
I think a large part of Tywin's dislike of Aerys had to do with Joanna. He made lewd jokes and "took liberties" with her. Most people think that means felt up at the bedding ceremony. Plus naming Jamie to the King's guard.
Possibly, although they were always friends in childhood. I saw all Aerys behaviour as a petty, horrible rivalrous revenge against Tywin seeming more powerful. Although it could definitely be the other way around
I think the manner of Tywin’s death was fitting. It was such an undignified, ridiculous death, killed while sitting on the toilet by his own son. What an ironic demise for a man that was so preoccupied by power, having influence, and family legacy, and his concern with other people’s opinion of House Lannister (despite the saying “a lion does not concern itself with the opinion of sheep”).
Even during Season 8 (which everyone gives out about), although unsatisfying, I do think Cersei and Jamie’s deaths were somewhat fitting, as it was so unceremonious.
I agree. It could be too that Cersei got off easy by getting crushed to death (or knocked out) by rocks.
Tywin was shot in the gut (or chest) and struggled for another minute or two before expiring.
Unceremonious? Yes. Deserved? Perhaps not, at least for Cersei (Jamie too but he had other opportunities)
Tywin was preoccupied with never being humiliated and died a humiliating death. Cersei was concerned with power, but her character is all about a deep hatred she has for everything that isn't herself, Jaime, or her children, I don't think her death being that unceremonious was fitting at all, considering absolutely none of the people she so deeply despised (or even the ones she loved) played a part in it or cared about it. And for Jaime, everything about his character arc in season 8 was so terrible that I wouldn't have cared if he died falling from his horse, he didn't care about being dignified or powerful like his dad, his death had nothing to do with his arc at all except for it being with Cersei
Their deaths were done so poorly it was good lol
There's also the whole throne metaphor with toilets.
Especially if he was sitting on the privy to begin with because the prince from Dorne had poisoned him to die in that especially undignified way in revenge for what Tywin ordered or let happen to his sister. In the book it says Tywin's corpse stank so badly that one of the magisters those experience dealers with the dead was sick. Tywin wasn't the only person obsessed with revenge and his family's rep.
I always considere Tywin to be one of the most tragic characters in ASoIAF.
Born in a rich but failing family because of his father's poor leadership, he essentially spent his entire childhood suffering slights, insults and getting stepped over while being powerless to do anything about it because of his father. He worked really hard to raise his house from the ashes, gathering the respect of his friends and foes alike, and even the love of his brothers like Genna and Kevan, but most importantly he could marry his beloved Joanna and have a happy life with her.
But as the time goes on, his own great capabilities as a ruler end up working against him, gathering the envy of King Aerys, one who once called him a good friend, who ended up becoming very similar to Tytos in a couple of ways, aka becoming the reason why he couldn't stop suffering slights and mockeries, only that this time Aerys partook in humiliating Tywin and also Joanna.
And then, the hard earned happiness he had was ripped away from him when Tyrion was born. Joanna died giving birth to a ''little monster made to remind Tywin that he shouldn't have put himself above the King''. Pretty much something inside Tywin broke and he literally didn't care anymore about anything but Lannister's legacy, becoming blind to anything else, something that in the end costed him both his life and his legacy as well.
Compared to a lot of brutal and corrupt characters in the book and the show, Tywin is probably the one you can understand the most. Is it really a surprise that he became such a brutal, uncaring and petty man considering how much shit he had to endure since birth? It's the beauty of his tragedy: a man who reacted in the worst way possible to the misfortune he received, and ended up spreading the same misfortune he suffered tenfold.
it really depends what your opinion on Tywin is
A great youtuber called Hills Alive made a wonderful video about him: th-cam.com/video/tLjZo3zkZwc/w-d-xo.html&t
I will mostly be parroting her points but from my eyes Tywin:
Believes he is above others simply because he is a Lannister, a spoiled manchild who pretends he is military and political genius, while having nothing to back it up.
He is good at administration, sure, but he got kicked around by Robb so hard that he had to stoop as low as House Frey to win the war, in the worst and least sustainable way.
Guess the brilliant strategy of "kill and burn anyone and anything that may oppose us" doesn't work that well huh?
Tywin didn’t really earn happiness, that’s not things work. He believed himself superior to everyone for being a Lannister, not being a good lord, good hand, good father nothing except his house which he did nothing to be born first to earn . Tywins delusions of grandeur infected Cersei and ruined her completely. Tywin much like the Baratheons brought the houses downfall on themselves for acting how they acted. Literally the only regret that I believe is that Tywin didn’t get a taste of the cruelty he doled out on others for literally no reason before he died
This and the take I put up a few days are go are insanely spot-on, it can be easy to overlook how good of a story-writer GRRM actually is until you go through the story of House Lannister forward from the last Blackfyre Rebellion, it’s genuinely tragic stuff, House Reyne aside of course (which is a great precedent to illustrate how much of an evil bastard Tywin could be)
ASoIaF
Don't if I know I would go so far to say people understand him the most.
I was sad when Tywin got shot because his unique complexity added depth to the Lannister’s story.
Same. He was my fav character.
It was a great character but his death was brilliant
Although not entirely undeserved!!!!!
I think Jamie, Cersei and Tyrion add their own brand of depthness to the story, in the books. In the show all of the complexities of those three die with Tywin.
@@WisteriaNerium i was about to say this the lannisters especially jaime are extremely complex or have become so and tyrion is sure to be a huge part of the rest of the series
On Tywin's humiliation weakness: I always imagined one of Olenna Tyrell's motivations for the Purple Wedding, beyond opportunity and "hiding in plain sight", was to have a public "hit" on Tywin's grandson. "To kill a man at a wedding, what sort of monster would do such a thing?" is not foreshadowing but relishing and bragging about her plans. So, while I never thought of Tywin that way, it does make sense.
Thank you for the video. In the show I was really enjoying Tywin, thanks to the marvellous Charles Dance. I saw him in many productions and he always, as an actor, is a force to be reckoned with...
The laughing. He never laughs or smiles. He distrusts both. A direct result of everyone always laughing at his Father and Family. So glad you pointed that out as that fact in and of itself led to the death's of thousands. The butterfly effect at it's most brutal.
I think Tywin's punishment of women reflects a seething hatred of women. It was Lady Tarbeck who planted the seeds of rebellion on the Castemeres and the Tarbecks, she used the wealth of Casterly Rock to rebuild her family and Twin must've known she had been trying to marry into the family for years. His father's mistress humiliated him by lording over everyone in Casterly and using his mother's clothes. Tyrion's first marriage made him feel less because his lowly son had the guile to marry a low born woman. And of course, Cersei's incompetence.
He has a very deep misogynistic attitude, that goes beyond what is expected of a common Westerosi noble. And that rubbed off on Cersei to a degree, who views her own gender as less and is pretty hateful towards any other woman.
Head-canon, but I like to think Tywin really loved his mother and found Johanna to share many traits with her. He genuinely only had his guard down whenever he was with her, and two of the times he smiled was when he was with Johanna. Which is why he hated Lady Tarbeck, who tried to seduce Lord Tytos and his dad mistress who dares to use her clothes. In a way, maybe that answers why he thinks so lowly of Cersei, Cersei tries to emulate Tywin instead of her mother.
Totally agree, I rarely see people talk about this. Cersei is incredibly misogynist.
Should note, aside from growing up with single-dad Tywin (after Tyrion's birth), having to live as Robert's wife for over a decade did not help at all with Cersei's attitude towards women and gender in general. Even she realizes this later on in the books when she starts sleeping with Lady Taena.
I dont think he hates women. He crushes men and women equally ruthlessly. Crushing opposition that is opposing you is that crushing it.
Also they do live in a patriarchal society.
I don't think he was initially misogynistic, because he utterly worshipped Joanna. He sees his children's failures as his own, and always blamed Tyrion for killing her.
Not to mention he does respect Arya, because she's intelligent.
As a therapist from the US, I always appreciate your videos and thoughtful analysis of characters in media.
I saw Tywin’s biggest flaw was that despite his masterful ability of holding everything together, he never really teaches any of his children this.
He despises Tyrion, treats Cersei like property and basically just tells Jaime to hurry up and figure out how to be a man and a leader.
He did seem to genuinely love and enjoy his wife, Joanna. She even makes Tywin laugh.
I don’t think that’s necessarily a good thing. Joanna seemed to love Tywin back, and she was present when her husband punished Tytos’ mistress.
What kind of woman would fall in love with a narcissistic abuser? Another narcissist, only one who knows how to hide it behind a noble face.
The fact that Cersei and Jaime only remember their mother yelling at them and separating them, rather than explaining why incest is wrong, speaks volumes about Joanna’s parenting skills.
@@catherinecao4810Like most women she probably thought she could “fix him”.
@@robpolaris7272 I think she only made him worse.
If Joanna wasn’t an abuser, she could have been an enabler.
@@catherinecao4810 I haven’t read the books. Only seen videos talking about certain details. I was hoping to wait until
they were completed but looks like that may not happen.
This timing is perfect cause I just finished reading the series a couple months ago. I always thought that Tywin deserved more appreciation for how good of a character he is because he's just as flawed and emotional as all the Lannisters (or anyone else) but then people always just only noticed how he portrayed himself when they talk about him. I liked your thoughts on it. Great video, can't wait for more Song of Ice and Fire!
" i don't think two very simplistic points entirly encapsulate this character" Fantastic insight. well done.
Dude, that Tyrion’s birth killed Tywin’s beloved (or rather the only person who seemed to help proliferate his happiness) yet Tyrion was the child most like his father - in spite of the fact that Tyrion embodied Tywin’s fear of impotence & implicit contempt of senseless adultery in deference of House Lannister’s survival in a world where Great Houses (i.e. Tully, Frey, Baratheon etc.) seemed to collapse under the weight of their own geo-political importance - is such a fucking incredible cautionary tale. He essentially became his own contempt for his own father, inverted for Tyrion’s inherent yearning for love and respect, something Tytos as the Head of House Lannister was capable of in spite of the inter-house political problems that characteristic created.
The story of Tywin & Tyrion Lannister is truly GRRM’s masterpiece. That’s the great Charles Dance was given an incredible source material to build his performance from was just MAGICAL. You could even posit that Tywin was (and Tyrion up until Season 8) the only spot where D&D didn’t compromise their source material
This is absolutely brilliant! By far the best analysis of tywin's psyche i've seen. The psychology of the characters and family relations are precisely the reason i love ASOIAF and especially house lannister so much. Please,please please do tywin's kids as well! P.S. i believe Tywin convinced himself that tyrion wasn't his son, in a massive effort to deny their "shameful" similarities. It worked alright, as the mad king was lustful, spiteful and had some low cunning as well.
I think you nailed it!
The following is going to be quite a long read I think, but to expand on your evaluation...
My impression is that a great part of Tywin's disdain for Tyrion is because he sees more of himself in Tyrion than he would like, and that he sees that Tyrion is, in many ways, actually doing a better job at being the man that Tywin aspires to be than Tywin is himself. For that, Tywin shames and belittles Tyrion to keep others' opinions of him low, lest he come to be viewed in higher esteem than Tywin is.
Tywin cannot tolerate the possibility that he may be perceived (and thus humiliated) as lesser in any way than the "spiteful creature" that he detests. I believe that he secretly admires Tyrion's intelligence and the ease with which he handles people; Tyrion has a finesse in negotiating where Tywin must threaten and intimidate. Tywin envies Tyrion; he's generally happy and free of heavy responsibilities, he's also got friends and even found love again, and worst of all, people seem to actually LIKE him, not fear him. Tywin doesn't even seem to be THAT bothered by Tyrion's "lecherous behaviour" until he learns that Tyrion actually has feelings for a woman, then Tywin must destroy for Tyrion that which he envies (Taesha) or do his best to take it from him and have it for himself (Shea).
He reacted in the same way when he returned to King's Landing after the Battle of the Blackwater and took Tyrion's place as Hand of the King. (Yes, I know it was meant to be his in the first place, but...) He gave Tyrion no praise or recognition whatsoever for doing his duty to the family by filling in for him, nor any thanks for his saving King's Landing from siege by Stannis and even gave the Tyrells sole credit for doing so. He could not abide that Tyrion had proven, once again, to be a better at something than he was himself.
One of the best lines in the show is spoken by Tyrion as advice to Jon Snow, who was feeling hurt when others called him a bastard: -- "Never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armour, and it can never be used to hurt you." That alone demonstrates that Tyrion may, in fact, be the ONLY Lannister Lion that truly does not concern himself with the opinions of the sheep!
Tywin, of course, cannot admit to such inner turmoil, and so it outwardly manifests as disgust and disdain toward Tyrion, which he justifies by blaming him for the death of his mother, and shaming him for his "drinking and whoring." He outwardly projects that the whoring is what disgusts him most, but I think that if, as you say, he likely had his own experience with such activities, that what actually disgusts him is his own reflection, again, in an otherwise honourable man he will not even call his son.
Well that's my two coppers, at least... :)
Thank you for these fantastic insights! :) Your whole "Psychology of" series is brilliant! It's been years now, and I still find myself drawn back to the show and the books, mostly because of the depth of so many of the characters. My frustrations with G.R.R.M.'s excruciatingly slow writing is much countered by his skill in creating these characters that are so well-developed that sometimes it's easy to forget that they are fictional. ♥
[EDIT: about 12 hours later... I wrote all of this before seeing that you'd also done a video on Tyrion, in which you did cover much of this. Oops!]
brillianr analysis!! it's the first video of yours that i've seen so far and it was an incredible watch, so thank u
only want to highlight another thing about tywin: he doesn't just need control and an upperhand in all situations, he doesn't just need people to give him the result he seeks - he also demands a total compliance in the process and procedural details. it's been very well highlighted in his first appearance - the man of his status most certainly doesn't need to butcher and take apart the stag himself, he has legions of servants who would gladly do it for him, yet he has very little trust in their abilty to do things as he wants them done, so he gets to work.
Enjoyed that :) i think the world breaks most of the characters in the books, as said earlier I think some of the interesting tweaks change things a little, like the kings guards not being allowed to inherit and sire children, this adds to not being able to get rid of Tyrion as he is a backup to inheriting the house (partly why he would rather not have him "marrying") but still wants to torture him because he killed Joanna by birthing. Ignoring and secreting Jaime and cersis' affair is as stated above a great crime so would threaten the house (not so much incest but the White Guard issue).
Tywin is an admirably ruthless pragmatist when it comes to war and political strategy
... but when applied to family and allies 😬 Yikes.
Very relatable. :D
Tywin is a character that we want to like but are forced to hate because of how awful he is to the people he's supposed to love.
Tywin is widely regarded as brilliant but is that because a lot of his actions have just so happened to work out for him. His most atrocious actions were lead by his emotions which subsequently led to the demise of his house. No one even cares that he’s dead.
I've wanted this video for soooo long, i was off utube for 3 to 4 weeks now and returning to it definitely didn't disappoint
YO the ROC remix in the background is so Kool!!
An excellent analysis. Especially when considering that you are not an ASOIAF book nerd. Even bringing up relevant points from the show. (suppresses the urge to spit at mention of the show)
I wrote this comment under a different Tywin video, but it fits well here too:
I think Tywin’s father confused love for respect while Tywin confused fear for respect.
Tywin’s father wanted to be loved by his people. He gave them whatever they wanted and never got angry, but, as a result, he never earned their respect.
Tywin has done everything he can to make people fear him. He responds to any insult with an excessive amount of brutality. When some houses refused to pay him back, he massacred them all. When Catelyn captured Tyrion, he sent the Mountain to burn and pillage the river lands. He threatens people to get what he wants by sending “potential allies” a singer to perform The Rains of Castermere. I don’t think he ever earned true respect because everyone is constantly plotting to overthrow the Lannisters. They show no respect for his name or his legacy by planning to tear it all down.
Ned was someone who earned people’s respect. Even after his death, his legacy is respected. The north went to war for him. Even after they’re defeated, the Manderly’s go out of their way to put Rickon back in Winterfell. The Northern men despise Ramsay for hurting “Ned Stark’s little girl.”
Nothing like this happens for Tywin. People acknowledge that he is smart and effective. Many fear him, but nobody respects him because his actions have hurt everyone in some way, shape, or form. His power came from his willingness to act as brutally as possible. As a result, he left his family with a kingdom full of people who want revenge.
Just started and it’s already a fantastic video!
When Lord Tywin's hair began to recede, he shaved his head. Lord Tywin doesn't believe in doing things in half measures. That line from the book sums him up
I think you are pretty much spot on with everything. One thing you did not mention is the possibility of Tyrion being son of Aerys and Joanna. If you are not aware, some people believe Tyrion might secretly be Targaryen, because Aerys had designs on Tywin's wife and some people think maybe he is Tyrion's father. Personally I do not think that is the case, but I think maybe that is what Tywin believes or at least suspects. That is probably why he is repeatedly denying that Tyrion is his son and how he justifies all the horrible treatment of him.
He’s one of the most interesting and multi-faceted characters in the books/show. The loss of his wife seemed to break him
The glance from Cersei at that intro clip, "thank you for your mercy"
I wish you would've gone more in detail about Tywin's relationship with his children, though in a way, maybe that would fit better into individual videos about these children. You said really everything when it comes to Tywin's side of it.
All of the Lannister kids are such complex characters, and I find their relationship to their father -- especially AFTER their father's death most striking. In a way, it seems they all learned something from their father. Whether they can use that for a positive or negative outcome ultimately though depends on them. In that, I find it most fascinating how these traits and the image Tywin created (which are often looked at in a very negative light as they concern Cersei or Tyrion) can also be used positively. When it comes to the Lannisters after Tywin's death, the general consensus seems to be (as also in your video) that his actions and traits that made his family big will also probably destroy it, mostly due to how these actions affected Tyrion (splintering away from the family, joining Dany and possibly in the future coming back with three dragons and a desire for vengeance -- though it's unclear if he would just kill Cersei or also seek further revenge on Jaime, as he seems to be conflicted about that) and Cersei (the way she rules King's Landing, thinking she is tywin reborn, just better, and doesn't really seem to make a lot of friends there -- even alienating her own uncle and brother). And this perspective is certainly fitting.
However, on a positive note, we also shouldn't ignore that Tywin's reputation and lessons had a great part when Jaime took Riverrun without spilling any blood. And that's where this whole thing becomes a lot more complicated. Jaime is maybe in regards to his relationship to Tywin the child who's least talked about, even if he maybe took the lessons he drew from Tywin's life and death in the most positive way. It shows that ultimately, Tywin despite his many flaws, is a character you can learn from and as his son, Jaime can take advantage of his reputation. Whether that "inheritance" is to be used ina positive or negative way, toward the family's goals, his own personal goals or a "general good", depends mostly on the character individually.
23:16 Oh wow, Tywin witnessed someone "humiliating a man through the women in his life" when he was just a child, when Walder Frey convinced Tytos to promise his only daughter to the second son of a House most families consider a significant lesser.
“Those unwilling to control their emotions and actions that follow will be subject to incredible injustice”.
- Common Sense
@@Kharis- The most common misunderstanding of the term, "control your emotions" is that most people thinks this means that you must (essentially) consciously control your feelings.
This is incorrect.
To "control" your emotions is to learn how to control your reactions to your emotions. You allow yourself to feel what you will but you react in a way that is productive to the situation or your goals.
This is not to be confused with "bottling it up", either. To "bottle" your emotions is to bury or compartmentalize them ... Ignore them.
Controlling your reactions is essentially conditioning yourself to be more in control of yourself. Like anything, the more you exercise it, the easier it becomes.
I’d love to see a breakdown in Joffreys character. Maybe analyze Targaryen’s throughout history as well
I feel not analyzing Cersei's relationship with Tywin was a missed opprotunity, especially because in the books, she constantly justifies her rule as regent as a literal continuation of Tywin's legacy and a indeed an improvement over him, much like Tywin regarding his own father.
In the show, the plot develops Cersei as first clumsy and self-destructive, but unlike book Cersei (at least for now) show Cersei eventually does become a master political strategist, destroying all of her rivals an attaining the right to sit the Iron Throne even though she has nor right or legitimacy to do so largely because in one stroke, she destroys all those who would challenge her in the Great Sept in a blistering callback to Reynes and Tarbecks.
What cersei did in the show wasn't really master planning. Just her same destructive tendencies with the benefit of luck.
@@fightingmedialounge519 politicking requires a bit of luck. Her discovery of the High Sparrow occurred entirely by accident.
@@theshackledgamer799 not as much as cersei had in final seasons. That was plot contrivance.
I love this video. Excellent analysis! Though he’s more one dimensional, an analysis of Roose might be interesting.
He had a bitterly sarcastic manner and was very intimidating with that cold death stare that looked right through you, but he had a softer side not many people would see as he cared for Arya.
I really enjoyed your analysis of Tywin and would enjoy seeing ones his children.
In case no-one else mentioned, Tywin's mother is Jeyne Marbrand :) Love your content btw, fascinating stuff!
Loved this! Please do more videos about GOT (focusing on the earlier seasons lol)!You deserve SO MANY more views than you get on videos like this! Much love ❤️
I think there is a lot in the story Oberyn told Tyrion at Jeoffreys wedding, about how he was promised to Cersei and Elia to Jaime, when Joanna was still alife. That the lady of Casterly Rock and the Princess of Dorne were great friends, but when the Dornish arrived at the Rock, Joanna just had died, Tywin was cold, he offered Tyrion to Elia. And then the Princess of Dorne proceeded to get HER daughter married to Rhaegar instead of Cersei. And that even though Aerys dispised the Dornish, so I guess Dorans and Oberyns mother must have been a diplomatic powerhouse. And she "cheated" Tywin out of his "right" to Rheagars hand in marriage. That had an influence on how Tywin came down on Kings Landing. Imagine having a grugde so hart you punish a CITY for it. And I might misremember, but I think Tywins sister said that he never smiled after Joannas death, but Ned remembered a grim smile over the children of Rheagar (or rather Elia. Tywin had her legacy taken because she had dared to win over Cersei). And Tywins funeral, how he stank (likely a metaphor for his being rotten on the inside), how nobody really cared, except for Cersei who has quite the breakdown. Like with Oberyns daughters we can see a facet (or more) in each of his children: Jaime (his aunt claims there is some of all of her brothers in him, except Tywin, but I do not think she knew her brother well enough, even though she is perceptive for a Lannister) is his guilt, his feeling of not being enough. Cersei is his ambition, the fight against the prior generation (like she wants him to be remembered only because SHE is his daughter), his narcisstic tendencies. And Tyrion... He is all that Tywin said, only that Tywin himself failed to see that in himself, too. I am only wondering if maybe the marriage of Tywin and Joanna might not have been all roses and daisies and if maybe he was not faithful to her (he was separated from her for long stretches of time and even though only Tyrion and Cersei seem to drink to cope, maybe Tyrions other coping mechanism was shared by Tywin?). Also I have wondered about the parallels the Lannisters might have to the House of Denethor in the Lord of the Rings (even though Faramir is no dwarf and Boromir had no twin sister.
This video was really interesting. Would love to hear your thoughts on other ASOIF characters!
This is an excellent video, but the Rains of Castamere trap remix is making bop my head more than listen.
Really interesting take on a great character. I always saw him a competent to the point of being sociopathic... willing to pay whatever cost for the most sensible and beneficial result ("Tell me why it is more moral to kill 10,000 men in battle than a dozen at dinner." and so on). And with this being the case, his father's jovial manner would have not made any sense to him - an inefficient personality in pole position. And in some sort of Nietzschian reality, his strongest will is what got him into pole position for the majority of his life.
I never really visualised him as having such an egotistical personality, and now that I think about it, it adds an interesting layer to him. Tempted to go back and watch/read him all over again and see which take jumps to me as being his motivation.
@@deanjustdean7818 Sad but true - the more brutal the world, the more brutal the leadership becomes.
It's what makes the Stark-Lannister story so gutting for me... it's so realistic. The Starks have benevolence and mercy in their approach, which is beautiful, but costs them their strength against the enemy because they can't risk losing Sansa and Arya. Tywin, on the other hand, loses Jaime and immediately replaces him with Tyrion. Benevolence vs pragmatism... unfortunately I think it's all too realistic that the latter won the war
Give me hope, Joanna. Possibly the best named character mentioned in the story. She may have been his last chance to relax.
I'm only about halfway through the vid, but one thing about Tywin that I always thought interesting was the immense evidence that he had a "secret tunnel" built from the Hands tower to the city brothel, while showing his complete hatred for "Whores" throughout the books it seems he's a john as well.
lmao damn. I guess it be like that sometimes. Crazy bit of info tho
No tunnel needed, little finger could provide any sex workers...
Would you ever consider covering Mr. Robot? There are lots of good therapy scenes and the show tackles the main characters' mental health extremely interestingly. I'd love to hear your thoughts.
I've heard it's a great show, but I'd have to watch it first
I believe Tywin had 3 dominant characteristics. The intellect, the snake, and the warrior.
Though unfortunately they were split among his three children. Tyrion is the genius and the best at strategy and political power. Jaime was the warrior through and through. Lastly Cersie was the snake, always doing things behind the scenes just like her father.
Tywin was unable to unify them together due to his pride and dehumanizing Tyrion.
I AM a GOT nerd and that was excellent analysis!!
Ahh nice, thanks!!
I really feel like I was educated properly as to Tywin's mindset, as I definitely held both opinions of Tywin being a reprehensible dickhead and being a super-efficient badass all at once. I think people who like him feel really out of control at times look to him and through him, they feel that power, that control. But I think as a therapist, you're maybe a lot closer to how George R.R. Martin himself sees Tywin. I think given that GRRM is famously anti-war, he wouldn't see someone like Tywin as a badass, but as an ultimately fragile man who feels out of control most of the time, and externalises that shame onto others. And people pay for it with their lives. This was a great video.
Martín loves to mirror characters across his different stories. Tytos being weak and amiable could also be seen in King Viserys I.
its finnally hitting, tywin cutting up that deer is symbolic, the lanisters messing up the beratheons
can't believe it took me years to realise that
I am loving this playlist! This is all so very on point.
1 of my favourite Charakters though I love tyrion more. I guess its the Lack of pov chapters in the books but still I love him
Ironically, by the end, Tyrion became the tallest Lannister alive
In a show with dragons, magic and sword fights, Tywin who does not do any of this, yet manage to be the most badass character in the show.
Ooo! Relatively new content about Tywin, time to watch!
Please keep doing these! I'd love to see a Theon video.
"The rains of castamere, his wrestler intro music"
In regards toTywin making his father's mistress make a "Walk of Atonemenmt", I believe you overlooked the tactical aspect of that act. This was a clear declaration to all that his father's era. an era of weakness, was over. There was a coldpracticality to it, as well as the layers of control and perhaps a bit o underlying jealously as well. Tywin is brilliantly written as complex, layered,and as nuanced as any sharacter in fiction other than Elric of Melnibone.
Restore does not equal make notorious .However I like you channel and have subscribed.
I see in Tywin, the fear that drives so many men to believe that he must be in control, as he trusts no ones motives but his. He trusts no no one's execution but his own. He wants control. He admires intelligence, but believes no one's judgement compares to his.
Really great video!
Incredible video
I don't think Tywin has any sexuality, just utter pragmaticism.
When he uses women against men, he shows them
A) look at your weakness, it's punishing you
B) I don't have that weakness, contrary to popular belief I am better than you in ALL aspects, even the lowest of humanity
Watch again how he is killed: with his pants down, witnessed relieving himself from thd lowest of human urges.
That's the situation that Tyrion finds the guts, pardon the pun, to pull the trigger.
Tywin didn't want to make himself look strong and formidable. Tywin was strong and formidable. His victories were manifestation of those qualities.
True. And at the same time, extreme prejudice against your own children is most definitely weak, foolish and unstrategic.
Often, I think, people overstate their accomplishments to distract from their insecurities. Maybe he was strong and formidable. But maybe...he didn't see himself that way.
And that was his problem.
28:17 nah, I don’t think Tywin built it. It‘s not easy to just add secret passages to an existing castle, especially one already as cluttered as the Red Keep. But did Tywin use it? Probably.
Damn I finished the series just in time for the GoT video
Tyrion a known socialite in Westeros who has the ability to keep the company of the small folk that many Lords of a powerful prominent House can't do or won't feel comfortable without showing their nobility off, from Tyrion's journey to visiting the Wall til the moment he's kidnapped by Catelyn then being taking to the Vale
In Dungeons and Dragons he would be Lawful Evil. In Palladium Fantasy he would be Aberrant.
As an asoiaf book nerd, I think to fully examine him you should look onto his siblings (Genna and Kevan's insights are great here, also I think Kevan is as great as Tywin but without this huge insecurities, but Gerion the adventurer too) and to Aerys and Joanna relationship. The thing with Aerys is much deeper I think - that maybe being humilated by his earlier friend feeded insecurities.
The sack of King's Landing is also another brutal act like Castamere and Red Wedding.
I would like you to do a breakdown of the characters in Penny Dreadful (Showtime)
Right off the bat: being the best character in the books isn't mutually exclusive from evil villain. But the badass genius mastermind is a stretch. He's the definition of neglecting micro for the macro.
Is it weird to comment on a 1yo vid? Idk I figure anything. Helps analytics
Tywin is Charles Dance's baby too. Brought the character cool and class.
Tywin in the books is essentially Tytos, but ashamed enough to hide it
Tywin had a largess of agency compared to Tytos.
To be fair on Tywin. His dad IS a mockery with or without Tywin. Money keep a family living and Tytos just lend it away. Ruler isn't supposed to be a yes man on a group, no one is, but Tytos. Multiple times, I think four, the King have to send hisown army to help Lannister take care of Bandits (?) simply because Tytos is just too "kind" to make sure the security on the Westerlands is kept. Tytos is not pure bad but he is bad. I don't think it is fair to analyze his mockery because Tywin try to fix house Lannister and their rule over Westerlands.
Tytos was very bad, and Tywin ofcourse wanted, and arguably suceeded in fixing his house. BUT that doesn't mean a) his methods were the only possible route to doing this and b) that the whole experience didn't have a big affect on his upbringing
I learned something new today 👌🏽💯
Cheers man!
Kinda off topic but have you ever seen howls moving castle? If so I think it would be a great movie for you to talk about. One of my favorite positive love stories.
You need to read the books. In my opinion, the book Howl is far more interesting and layered than the simple movie version
He’s the greatest lord and the most powerful person in Westeros. He had won all the war in his lifetime and technically conquered the 7 kingdoms in his palm but he will always lose that one war, the one and only war, he lost the war within himself 🥹☹️🥲.
@kozo1325 💯👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾2 not be at peace within yourself is so very absolutely sad.
u are so right
He didn't win the war WITHIN!!!!!
There is also the fact that Tywin got Elia Martell to be raped and killed. While killing targaryen children to reinforce Baratheon rule makes sense, killing elia Martell rather than using her as a negotiation for Dorne, and making lifelong enemies doesn't make much sense. I think this was personal as well. Tywin wanted to humiliate Aerys and Rhaegar.
That's a very good point
If you’ll entertain a more simple reading of Tywin, I think his overall archetype is pretty simple and obvious. He’s the lion from the Aesop tale “the lion’s share”
The Psychology of Elim Garak, please
His decisions 'not being entirely being logical' I would put in another way - he wants to say he's being rational, but really he's just rationalizing his brutal methods and mindset to achieve absolute control, as you put it. He's great at how he does it...but terrible at why he should do it. This was expressed in his first scene with Jaime, to shut down a valid point of his: "If any one of us can be captured with impunity, we are no longer a house to be feared - that's a fact!" and then orders Jaime, his favored son, to the frontline so he gets captured as it all spirals out of control. And heaven forfend his house ever stop being feared by even a little, because then people might laugh again like during Tytos' reign. But rationalizing and projecting your flaws onto Tyrion is common when one has daddy issues, which Tywin most definitely does - he tries to be the exact opposite of him, which leads him to become a cold and uncaring person, which ultimately dooms his relationship with his children and leads to his death.
Don't think it's quite fair to blame him for Aeyrs' - his insanity came from, ironically, Barristan Selmy saving him from his dungeon stay so...one could definitely argue that Selmy is far more responsible for things going bad in the kingdom through a genuinely noble deed. So Tywin feeling frustrated by it and feeling that his adulation at the expense of the King should be some small recompense seems fairer and more understandable, despite his own already natural inclination to feel entitled to it.
Finally, his grotesque punishments of Tyrion is easily understandable - he never felt he was truly his son, he sees how attached Tyrion is to sex and women, so he decides to use them himself in order to punish him the most he possibly could. He does actually say several times during the show also 'You are my son', whenever it is convenient for him to say so, if he needs something from Tyrion, but during the beginning of season 3 (that you showed) and at the very end of season 4 you have two scenes that give you his true feelings. The ones that have driven him to all of his bad decisions that were anything but pragmatic. Like when Tyrion was already considering going along with the trial and just leave for the Wall, but then Tywin has to call Shae and shame him one last time and that drives Tyrion to spit in his face in fury, and eventually end him.
Ruthless. Consummate administrator. Great at setting policy. He should have overcome his dislike of Tyrion. Had he utilized his son better the StateCraft they could have implemented would have had no equal.
Tyrion was a perfect representation of his father, weak to his vices, yet powerful in ability. Tyrion was all the fear tywin had to his name, a representation visually of how tywin felt for the actions shown, and a mirror to his father. The glory and fear of the rains of castamere, killed by a dwarf on the pot as the most helpless he could have been.
I honestly don't agree with him caring what others think for personal reasons, it's shown and stated that tywin did what he did if he saw it as a benefit to himself. He punished bakers for mixing sawdust in their bread, but only so the people would be more accepting of his deeds under aerys. He did everything with purpose and buried emotions so deep it became his poison, to rule through fear rather than respect is what cost him, forgetting the lessons of the past, his own past of doing what benefits others to benefit himself, now he only cares about his legacy as a ruler, and died the most disgraceful way possible.
Except his interest in ruling through fear and building a legacy stem from personal reasons. Also he clearly didn't bury his emotions that deep when considering his relationship with tyrion.
The biggest word battles I get in the ASOIAF fandom is with the people who either view Tywin as only a strategical badass or cunning villain. I always poise the question: why not both? Can we not abhor his horrible actions and also appreciate the mettle of his character?
Needless to say, for some reason, these conversations do not end well.
I think you should also do an analysis on House Tyrell, Margaery and Olenna Tyrell.
Tywin punished his fathers mistress because she was wearing his late mother's jewelry and ordering around the servants as if she was anything more than a mistress. It had nothing to do with jealousy or resentment toward his father.
It had everything to do with resentment toward his father. Would she have had the ability to do that without his father's permission or disregard? Her behavior was a demonstration of his father's weaknesses which he saw as a reflection of himself.
You're reading the text, but this video explains the subtext.
Wonderful insight. Thank you.
Tywin was an idiot for permitting the Red Wedding.
It was then that the North basically won the war. They just didn't know it.
All that the Northmen had to do in order to gain their independence was retreating behind the Neck and have southern invasions of them fail time after time again as they had all done since the start of the Andal invasion, untill Aegon would finally arrive with his dragons. Tywin had no dragons. He had no means of taking the Neck and Moat Cailin from the south or to hold the coastal areas for long after a potential naval attack in the east.
Robb had no way of retreating North though, not with his alliance with the Freys being broken. Tywin could have used this in order to force him to agree terms, which in turn would have secured the Iron Throne's hold on the North for generations to come. Northmen generally tend to have a cultural bias in favor of the status quo after all. And a marriage alliance - p.e. between Sansa and Tommen since one to Tyrion might be perceived as too much of a slight by the Northern Lords - would deliver him a permanent hostage against further attempts of Robb to break free. He could have negotiated a pact with Walder Frey to let Robb return North and have even helped him clean house with the Ironborn, which would have officially ended the war with any side but a worn out Stannis, WHO WOULD NO LONGER BE ABLE TO FIND ANY ALLIES TO HIS CLAIM.
But instead.... He managed to insult the Northern gods in the worst way possible and break the holiest of their traditions: the guestright.... From that moment on he cemented himself, House Lannister and King's Landing as "enemy entities" to anybody in the North....
All that the Northmen needed to do from that moment on, was retreating, killing the Boltons and declaring independence.
Sure, this way they might lose the last remaining hostages at the Twins, yet those were few in numbers and the slight might have been great enough to risk it, especially to those whom no longer had anyone to lose. Also, with winter being around the corner and Roose's new heir being a widely loathed criminal, a large scale conflict disfavouring the Boltons seems practically inevitable.
Strangely enough, EVEN ROBERT turned out to be a better ruler then Tywin: he knew how to turn enemies into allies. Tywin had built his myth of being a great statesman on blood and tears, yet in the end, that's all that it turned out to be: a myth.... a song that was performed for the minor houses in the Westerlands....
Tyrion is the dawrf, but Tywin was the one who remained small.
I would love to see an analysis of olenna tyrell :D
One incredibly strong and ruthless leader. He would have been a great King if he wasn't so ruthless.
I do admire him in a way though. I think he's had to be tough just to survive and get to the top.