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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 ก.พ. 2024
- This video discusses the narrative and tone of World of Warcraft and briefly Warcraft III, as well as the MMO's evolution. From storytelling techniques to the factions. Class fantasy to talent changes. Qualms with Dragonflight, and Warcraft's potential 'identity crisis' in recent years. Asking the questions: 'When did World of Warcraft get 'too soft' for some people? And just who is Blizzard's target audience today?
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I think the biggest decline for WoW has been the lack of 'grit' in its aesthetic styling'. Warcraft 3 felt like this fun B movie splicing of fantasy tropes, which had genuinely great original ideas interspersed within it. The art style too was very iconic which helped.
The best case example is the Night Elves. They went in Warcraft 3 from being gritty amazonians, to flanderising into 'tree-huggers.'
Early WoW retained the warcraft 3 flavour, the sounds, the world, the art style and lore. But since then, and especially in BFA, WoW has been made to feel like a parody of the Marvel films. Characters just run around saying 'witty' one-liners. Things happen in the plot because they need to. Constant retconning etc.
WoW is no longer the mystical world of shamanic Orcs and bloodthirsty Kaldorei, it's become 'soft'. It's really impressive how the art team has kept the game looking so good for a game so old, but everything is very 'smooth', almost like play dough.
Basically go and open the Warcraft 3 game manual and look at its artwork. That's what I want WoW to look like. That should be the art style, and aesthetic direction of the game imo.
You make a great point about the Night Elves. I do feel that Warcraft III and early doors WoW was very much a 'This is why we fight!' and the morals and beliefs those races upheld shined more of a light on them individually. Now everybody is just fighting for the same cause and it makes the races lack depth. When you mention a parody of Marvel, it instantly makes me think of what Star Wars has become, and I see a lot of comparisons there. And that fills me with profound sadness. I agree with everything you have said. Thank you for your comment!
@@edd_TV no worries, thank you for your reply and the video. That's a perfect analogy. It'd take an entire essay to properly explain the problem. But yes, just compare the original trilogies of star wars and modern Disney star wars and there you go.
The identities of the races have eroded to be similar to that of the real modern world, which is a shame for a fantasy universe. Especially WoW, with its exaggerated and brutal approach. Not even the Draenei were similar to what we have currently, or some otherwise peaceful races like Tauren.
I don't believe the original Warcraft games laid down enough story foundation for WoW (the Chronicles were necessary), but the direction was clear and it was interesting. But the wildness and brutality is not present in WoW the same way anymore. Even if they do add it (BfA Drustvar for example), its not believable, because the art style of the modern game isn't compatible with it, there is no immersion
Very true. I have the feeling that wow tries very hard to appeal to the broadest audience possible, hence the marvel approach and the change from heavy metal to k-pop of MMORPGs. Which is ironic as there is no way they'd ever reach the numbers of WotLK with this approach. The success of Classic makes a point too.
Btw @tamas9554 the chronicles had killed the old world and the remains of good narrative, mystery and any space for maneuver they'd had. I mark it as pretty much the beginning of the end of warcraft's ongoing story and worldbuilding.
@@eldrevo I disagree, you see in my opinion Warcraft was never written as a coherent good story. Looking back even at the first 3 Warcraft games, they are quite inconsistent, and WoW made great mistakes from the very beginning as well.
If anything, Chronicles tried to refresh the Warcraft mythos, and what we got after was a more complete world. And its not like no mysteries actually remained, but I don't want to elevate Chronicles on a pedestal.
I just think WoW's narrative was flawed from the beginning, and it would have done a lot if they established the whole world from the beginning, then none of the retcons would have been necessary. It was unprofessional execution
Really looking forward to see this channel blow up in the near future.
That being said, I personally quit world of Warcraft last year after being continually subbed for over 15 years.
Warcraft has always had these very explicit tones of old enemies setting aside their differences to face a greater threat. Even in the context of Warcraft 2, we have kingdoms that haven't seen eye to eye, and clans that have been actively at war with each other, banding together with their rivals to face each race's existential threat (The belief of their Planet becoming inhospitable for the orcs, and the orcish horde for the humans)
This theme was carried into Warcraft 3 with the Battle for Mount Hyjal, and anyone actively opposing the idea of allying against the greater threat (Othmar Garithos, Daelin Proudmoore) were painted as villains to hammer home that theme.
It's been in WoW's blood too, since Ahn'Qiraj, which carried into the Sunwell Raid, Icecrown Citadel, Dragon Soul, Throne of Thunder, Siege of Orgrimmar, the entire story of WoD (bar Ashran), 8.2 and 8.2.5
The reason the Horde and Alliance banding together felt narratively impactful and thematically congruent with Warcraft's Storytelling is not because we like holding hands with the Night Elves; It works explicitly because we don't.
When we work together only because that cooperation is the lesser of two evils, that's warcraft.
I have been advocating for Cross-Faction PvE content and Arenas since MoP at least, because it fits the theme of Warcraft's core identity for a Heroic Orc Shaman to ally with an equally Heroic Draenei Paladin to take down something much worse, and our characters have done that narratively with NPCs as far back as the aforementioned Ahn'Qiraj, and it is cool exactly because orcs and draenei do not get along. Where Blizzard failed with this conversion was having the Conflict melt away, to have Talanji have a conversation with Turalyon over wedding cake, instead of only tolerating his presence when it's necessary for the survival of her Kingdom.
Topper McNabb doesn't need to tolerate Forsaken for heroic characters to work together across the faction divide.
Instead, we got the opposite.
In Legion, Warcraft died to me. There was no longer any narrative reason for the Cross-Faction limitations to exist. We left behind the Horde and Alliance almost entirely to join new factions that were all explicitly working together. In 7.2, they even became a single faction, yet a Tauren Sunwalker and a Dwarf Paladin, both in the Silver Hand, couldn't party up to defeat Elisande.
There was no narrative logic to it, the gameplay being limited in active opposition to the story being told.
And then Shadowlands did the exact same thing again.
Quite literally all the limitations and negatives of playing warcraft, without the narrative and thematic benefits that made Warcraft cool to begin with.
Now, I held on and kept playing through both of those expansions, because I in both cases assumed it was temporary, and that Warcraft woud be about two non-evil factions with lots of animosity between them, forced to work together. In Legion's case, I was almost right.
I finally got the cross-faction play I wanted, to have player characters actually live out the best part of Warcraft's themes... except now the Grand Commander of the Alliance was invited to the wedding of the First Arcanist of Suramar, and had a nice chat with the Queen of all trolls in a Horde Capital city.
The narrative framing that made Faction Crossplay interesting is entirely gone.
The Waking Shore intro was a nasty wake-up call for me.
As for cinematics, I prefer big sweaty men fighting demons to heartfelt conversations, but I do genuinely feel they both have a place in Warcraft. The best cinematics have a bit of both (Like the Battle for Thunder Pass), but I honestly have no issue with cinematics that are entirely Genn and Tess hugging in front of Liam's grave, as long as they both hate the orc they had to work with to get there.
It's not that the storytelling is inferior that made me quit, or that heartfelt cinematics are worse than action-packed ones. It's the simple fact that Warcraft lost its biggest core theme. There is no greater evil, if you're not seeing a lesser evil. The story is now a bland "one side is good, one side is bad" and Warcraft's storytelling has never been good enough to make that interesting on its own.
I'm gutted to hear that you feel that way about Legion, because it's my all-time favourite! You raise a very good point about the Class Order Halls and the eventual coalition as we became the Army of Legionfall. I never thought of it like that. You speak a lot of truth.
This is a really well written comment, and thank you for watching, your kind words, and for sharing your thoughts and feelings!
As much as I hate to admit to it - World of Warcraft defiantly changed their narrative to fit their new target audience. And I honestly can't fault them for that, especially with the added stresses from upper management. Which is exactly why season of discovery is so popular. By the way I defiantly miss the old-school flirts and jokes.
It's a tricky one. I think it's important to move with the times, but some of the decisions made just felt so unnecessary. I agree with you regarding both Classic and SoD! I miss them too!
@aquilophonix755 I don't quite know what you mean by your original comment. There doesn't seem to be any "target audience" which is getting what they want from the Unreliable Narrator Saga of bfa/sl/df. The only thing the replacement writer villains like Danuser have done is drive more and more and more and more people "away" from warcraft, and disappoint everybody else who is staying around because they liked their characters and stories from before the replacement writers.
Definitely*
@sindeed That's true. It honestly made Shadowlands feel like a 'Greatest Hits' of dead WoW characters, bringing back beloved characters. Like giving me both Kael'thas and Uther? I was stoked for Shadowlands. They know how to get you.
I feel like they could've moved with the times to target their newer younger demographic in today's society, but also still respect the old audience with keeping to the game's core theme
Having races in a fantasy needs to serve a storytelling purpose - they're supposed to be artistic highlights of cultural aspects. Goblins and their BFA lore are a great example of how to make a race more complex without compromising the thing they are highlighting. We then got two different kinds of goblins, the OG greedy crooks and Gazlowe's fair trade union. Goblins were always capitalists essentially and that, to me at least, made it fun to create goblin characters of different classes which would present uniquely through that capitalist lens from an RP perspective (goblin priests using the light primarily to make money for instance). Its sadly rare for Blizzard to make quests that focus on the core theme of the various races and their modern direction is eroding those identities. I feel with all the character growth dragging entire racial communities and the factions themselves for the ride, the Last Titan is looking like WoW's finale.
I do love your point about the goblins, and I think Gallywix is such a missed opportunity. Like he should surely be a raid boss at some point! I had a Goblin Priest called 'Highprofit', a play on both the goblin greed and being a prophet. I do agree with your points, but I'm unsure if The Last Titan is the end of WoW. I've definitely thought about it, but then I remembered Metzen also said that this would usher in the next 20-30 years of Warcraft, so maybe it will continue, or perhaps WoW 2? It's up in the air. If it is the finale of everything we know, but they plan to continue...I think that's going to be very difficult, because they have proven how much they struggle with the introduction of new characters. Thank you for your comment!
If we want to talk about Warcraft "losing" its identity we must address that it never really had "one" identity. Internally, this franchise has gone through at least three changes of theme, one being an entirely derivative work based off of Warhammer (an ex-dev has publicly come out and admitted it was "highly inspired by Warhammer and other such games") going into Chris Metzen's Lottery Win with Warcraft 2 where it evolved into a visually distinct franchise, going into Warcraft 3 where the themes of good vs. evil were upheaved and replaced with more neutral conflict. This is the RTS era alone, spanning ten years. The following twenty years are World of Warcraft incrementally enfirming the franchise up until wrath and then incrementally *losing* its definition, being filled time and time again with derivative ideas of contemporary franchises. By Legion, much as I loved it, I really felt like I was looking at somebody's well curated DnD homebrew setting as opposed to "Warcraft". Shadowlands, in turn, felt like they were supplanting whatever Warcraft was at this point by a completely unique franchise.
Having heard the history behind it, I must assume they had no other choice but to draw from all possible sources to somehow make the open-ended, frayed mess that was the SL concepts come together, so it was only logical that SL's themes would come out completely incoherent with Warcraft. They went reeling from *that* catastrophe and made Dragonflight, which suffered from exactly the same where there was no quality control or guidance and everything was being greenlit from what I heard - I must assume also simply to somehow fill up this world with *some* lore and questing background. Internally, nothing ever changed because Quest and Level designers, as far as lore and dungeons went, had always a lot of creative liberty, even under Chris Metzen. Read "the WoW Diary" for more of that. For Team 2, it was always "fuck it we ball". So what *did* change? I doubt it was the coziness or cheeriness, MoP had a lot of that as well and to this day is considered a hidden gem. I believe what we've experienced with DF is just the inevitable fall of the Damocles sword. It is actually a miracle that it hasn't happened sooner. Maybe a factor is that a lot of the media from which Blizzard could derive ideas have also been really, really garbage and it was just logical that DFs story and themes weren't appealing.
The biggest problem now is that Blizzard can never, ever, in a million years go back. The incremental shift of tone has also lead to an incremental shift of the audience. There are loud voices saying "I want the gritty wow back" - But these people are a loud minority and as moments like the Burning of Teldrassil or the Horde attack on Brennadam during BFA have shown, the outcry will be just as if not more immense if they ever so much as dare bring back uncomfortable, gritty moments. World of Warcraft, the game, can never provide an authentic "Warcraft" experience again as it would be considered just as unfit to the setting. Going over all of this, I have little hope that TWW will be a return to form. I can't even really put my hope into them splitting the IP across various game franchises so that maybe a darker toned Solo RPG might revive the "identity" or a Dwarf based shooter game, because Hearthstone completely gave up on the grit and they spent all this time on Warcraft Rumble to make it look like toysoldiers in a pinball machine.
For what it's worth, Warcraft is best enjoyed just like the various DnD settings: Merely written background for the audience to pick-and-choose an era or even individual elements and crafting their headcanon over it. The "LoreCraft"-Team who did the Wacraft 2 Remaster are doing exactly that. If they weren't creating a W3 Custom campaign, it would be a perfect example of an independent Warcraft IP game.
This was a great read. You speak a lot of sense and are obviously very passionate about it, and that's great to see. Thank you for watching, and sharing your thoughts and feelings!
Okay so about Wrathion in the Zaralek caverns:
I agree that he was acting in a weird way, I would actually argue that the place brought out the worst in both him and Sebellian. I think that’s intentional though because they are grapping with coming face to face with their father’s legacy, as well as being subtly manipulated by the void presence in Aberrus. They even say to the players that they can feel something prodding their minds and of course as we know there was literally a faceless void creature impersonating Neltharion in the raid.
I think you're right. It just felt extreme and a bit jarring for me. I felt it was noticeable elsewhere too but in particular Zaralek. I agree with what you're saying though!
I thought it was because of all the old god-y void-y stuff that was making the spymaster dragon become immensely impulsive, but finding out it really wasn't is what honestly broke the patch for me. 10.1 really killed the xpac for me since I couldn't feel any aesthetic engagement with the new content. 10.3 did tickle my pickle but became a 2 month session instead of my usual constant playing the whole way through
@@adrien2602 I can relate to the 'sessions' rather than the constant wanting to play too.
There's a worrying tendency present, originating from understandable sources. In efforts to streamline the narrative, remove problematic elements of outdated tropes it has felt like the setting is just being bleached clean of actual diversity by wiping away barriers of history, creed and religion between the playable races.
The signifying aesthetics of the Horde no longer signify anything substantial to distinguish them from the Alliance. Where is the point in having dozens of playable races when, ultimately, they all believe in and want the same things?
EDIT: Pre-emptively counter-arguing, "individuals should and do differ from the mold, no culture is a monolith!" I completely agree yet representation unironically matters; the representations we have seen as of late have been /nothing but/ exceptions-- to a mold only existing in the hypothetical, anymore. The Dragonscale Expedition, Tyr's Guard , Kirin Tor etc. hold none of the appeal of 75% -- 90% of Azeroth's cultures, yet they do hold all of the limelight.
Whoa, what a comment. That is such a great question. It speaks volumes.
@@edd_TV Thank you! Through my past year of experiencing Dragonflight ( a major step-up in the gameplay department!), I've felt the decline of this vibrant world of insurmountable grudges, conflicting interests, clashing beliefs and /then/ overcoming them to save the world... to just empty aesthetics.
What is the appeal of the orcs when they've reconciled the problems of their warrior culture, secured resources to survive, no longer eking out an existence in a world that reviles them?
Err, they've got red spiky armour, axes and shamans, and they ride wolves; empty aesthetics of another culture that fights for truth, justice and compassion.
It's the same across the board: Forsaken and malicious aesthetics of blight, spite and rancour -- fighting to ensure the safety of their human neighbours. Goblins and their hyper-capitalist, anti-environmental industry; wholesome chonkers that fight against greedy meanies like Gallywix. Molten fury and the warmachine of the Dark Iron -- fer the Alliance, fer Azeroth, Thaurissan who? And so forth.
@@Dreamfillah I agree, I think the gameplay in Dragonflight is solid, and dragon riding is such a wonderful addition to the game. You make some very good points! A lot of stuff remains unresolved and swept under the carpet, or has simply concluded now and has things feeling a bit flat.
WoW just abandoned the often times strict cultural heritages some races had from the beginning. For example, the night elf society in Warcraft 3 was shown to be very isolated from the rest of the world (the orcs and humans didn't even know they trespassed into their territory), and held themselves to their traditions. Males were only shown to have been druids, meanwhile females took up the mantle of priests and warriors.
In WoW however, none of these restrictions remained, there never were any gender restrictions. The night elves would have also had little reason to join the Alliance, as they treaded both humans and orcs as outsiders. Some other races, like Gnomes, can also be played as melee fighters, even though their body makes that literally impossible, they would be as good in a fight as a toddler.
Its sometimes understandable, sometimes a shame they weren't faithful to the little original lore they had :/
. @tamas9554 This is something I believe is one of the issues brought about by the game being split faction. Hear me out. The need to take both the night elves and the forsaken, and fit them into each faction took precedent over everything else.
Much like how we also, occasionally, get stories like the blood elves wanting to leave to join the alliance in Mists that obviously never went anywhere. Simply because it could not, due to game mechanics. I have always felt, purely for the sake of story that factions in these types of games may not be such a good thing. Strickly speaking of lore.
A note on WoD hype you mentioned: We were going from muh pandas back to the roots of warcraft with the 'Big hairy men and metal music' vibes again. There was a world of potential with WoD and Blizz dropped the ball. (which thank god tbh because the resources went towards the best xpac in modern times Legion)
I share your thoughts. Legion was spectacular.
I don't have an issue with wow showing emotion. TBF, I think the reason most people are afraid of emotion displays ingame is cause they are afraid of showing/feeling/connecting with their own.
I couldn't agree more. Love this comment.
I don't know for others, but, I brutally sense the SACRED 2 influences through World Of WarcrafT. Since BFA with Onewheel mount (Templar Guardian) and many, many easter eggs through all the Azeroth. And it's so good! :D
5:15 Which is silly, as we literally saw history repeat itself in 2019 Classic WoW: as soon as the BGs opened up, world PvP was DEAD. Not dying. Dead. Flying mounts had nothing to do with it. What these players saying this really mean is "flying mounts killed a lot of opportunities to gank people while questing".
It's definitely a rose tinted glasses thing, I agree. Like many things Classic has illustrated since its revival. Not everything is as great as we remember it to be. I think they tried to encourage World PvP in TBC with the arenas in Hellfire, the towers in Terokkar and of course Halaa in Nagrand, but naturally BGs are and always have been the way to go. I feel that War Mode is a real incentivisation to engage in World PvP, if you think back to something like The Battle for Nazjatar, with bounties and so on.
Nah flying killed world pvp because the "Gankers" could just fly up when you logged on your main to pvp. Also lots of players didn't have flying right away and those who acquired it just used it to gank better with less repercussions. Leave it where you cant que bg's unless you are at the front of an instance BG, remove flying mounts and you get world pvp ez.
We still have a ton of world pvp outside of pvp event in SOD rn, and 2 bg's are open.
Every time a red name loads in on the road ahead its always a tense moment. What class? what level? Does he want to fight? How many? Do I get off the road? etc.
If im in the sky whats he gonna do? What are the chances we even pass each other lol.
@@tactfulrogue It's important to note that there is a big incentivisation with World PvP in SoD though that is tied to gear, with the Blood Moon event, but you are right, it does exist in other areas of the game too.
@@tactfulrogue I would just like to point out that to each their own but, at least to me, a random dust up with a member of the opposite faction once every several hours on a road isn't exactly 'World PvP'. I feel my point still stands: once BGs opened up, any kind of protracted group pvp content out in the world just died. Instantly. I feel, and you are free to disagree, that World PvP requires intent to PvP, not just 'well they're here so Imma wreck 'em and be on my way' kind of engagements.
Also, you said it yourself: 'lots of players didn't have flying'. The vast majority, in fact, when flying was introduced in TBC, didn't have it for months and months and months after launch - and it was per-character, not per-account. Back then, people didn't have 5k sitting around. It took tons of time for most players to grind that out, so with the few players that DID fly while the questing phase was still really active in TBC, there weren't that many for flying gankers to be much of a problem yet.
By the time people really started complaining about how "flying killed world PvP" (which wasn't until late Wrath/early Cata in the first place when the nostalgia started hitting), everyone could afford flying while leveling, so people weren't running on the ground from objective to objective and being easy targets. Hence, the complaints to the effect of what I said earlier.
I'm further explaining this not to be rude, but A) because your response contained full sentences with a decent argument, B) you were polite and respectful in your response, and C) with like and due respect, I feel like you may not have fully understood where I was coming from. Thank you for your response and I hope mine further explained my original statement. Cheers!
@@edd_TVYes. I love War Mode and almost exclusively run with it enabled on my 3 mains. I think it was a great addition to the game, but I do feel the incentives need to be turned up and that it needs to be harder (or have a CD) to toggle it on and off. We've seen it be literally exploited by a certain faction repeatedly since it was launched in BfA and the devs have really done nothing to prevent that abuse, imho.
I think modern WoW and in particularly Dragonfly requires players to read the quest line and follow the story presented to understand it. With the nuance that has been introduced (and lets be honest, has been requested by the player base) you can no longer rely on gameplay and skipping the quest lines AND still know what it is happening in the story.
I agree with that. And I think that's a good thing. I think players who are hungry for story and lore in WoW are absolutely minorities, but we do still exist. And seeing as this is going to get even more story-driven with three connected story expansions, they should honestly look at some sort of in-game cinematic/movie catch up I think. Even traversing TH-cam or WoWWiki or wherever would take an age.
I would have loved if karabor instead of being twisted into the black temple we knew in BC, but if it was twisted with void energy instead of fel in WoD and made a raid for a second time. They had the opportunity to do that with the shadow moon clan dabbling with void magic.
I think Karabor originally was supposed to be the Alliance capital in Warlords. I would have loved that.
@@edd_TVmany things were cut from WoD unfortunately since they were already working on the new expansion
@@alihorda Yeah, and in a way thank God, because otherwise we wouldn't have got Legion, or it would never have had the care, love and quality that it did receive. I'll always wonder 'What if?' though for WoD, and what could have been.
@@edd_TV Yeah I know it was suppose to be a capital city but it would have been a good idea for a raid since they abandoned that idea
@@1shogunate696 Yeah, I agree. I think anything more than what we got would have been great. It really deserved better, so much of WoD did!
Your channel is so quality! Excited for the future!
Glad you like it! Thank you!
What I hate about the replacement writers in BFA/SL/DF is that they violate all of the previous lore..... but they do it with the method of unreliable narrator so that the entire playerbase is splintered into thinking different things happened than what other players who did the same exact content think happened.
For example, very few people seem to realize that literally "ALL THREE" of the major raids for Dragonflight were lies.....inside the narrative.
Vault of the Incarnates: There was no prison cell for Raszageth anywhere in that entire raid....nor was there any prison cell in the forbidden reach where we found her, she didn't get defeated or imprisoned by the Titans, she got defeated by Neltharion serving N'Zoth. She never cared about Azeroth, she never cared about other dragons, she never cared about mortals....not even the slaves in her primalist cults. She lied to her cultists over and over and over again, exploiting and betraying and deleting them; while exploiting and betraying and mutating dragon eggs as well. There were no primal dragons with sentience "ANYWHERE" on the dragon isles or anywhere else on the planet besides those 4 named villains. Literally, all the primal dragons were dumb as a box of rocks, with less intelligence than a cow or duck or crocolisk..... so they could not possibly have been part of any army that ever fought against the dragon aspects way back before the sundering. There was never any explanation, then, of how those 4 villains were given intelligence let alone magic visage forms, nor any acknowledgement of the evil they did against mortals.
Aberrus: It was a total lie, the ghost image of Neltharion that follows you around in the raid is not actually Neltharion and never was, it was a faceless one telling you lies. Therefore, it is yet another unreliable narrator..... so everything you see in the lab, and everything any characters inside that lab say..... can just be a lie. The faceless one could have done it all, including all the experiments, and all the hiding artifacts or secrets, all the enslaving of djaradin, all the creation of the dracthyr as a species....... every last single shred of it could have been done by the faceless one ghost and "NOT" Neltharion at all. When Nozdormu tries to retrieve a memory of the past from Emberthal in the animated cinematic which we saw just before the launch of Dragonflight, where she saw an image of Neltharion leading them and then using void powers..... literally we have no way of knowing if that wasn't also the faceless one in disguise using void powers to capture Raszageth and then putting all the dracthyr into stasis.
Amirdrassil: Also a total lie. Freya never showed up anywhere in the dream. Elune never showed up anywhere in the dream. Eonar never showed up anywhere in the dream. All the fake magical characters in that dream (not just the ones turned to fire, but the non-fire ones also) did not give one shred of care for us, or mortals, or the world soul inside Azeroth, or the planet Azeroth itself. They tried to murder us, and they exploited and lied to the many thousands of dead night elf souls which they were using as fuel. There is "ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE" that azeroth gave any powers to any dragons in that raid. We have yet another unreliable narrator spoken claim about it, and no lore showing any such thing. Considering that power was given to an evil ice dragon mass genocidal ecosystem destroyer like vyranoth.....then it makes no sense that the world soul inside azeroth would ever participate in such a way. And considering that the replacement writing in that raid totally disregarded and violated and contradicted the entire purpose of those aspects..... Earth/Time/Magic/Life/Dream ........ where we "NEVER" learned anything about Earth/Time/Magic/Life/Dream and did not use any of those to help the world soul nor the planet.......... Then we are left thinking that some kind of evil cosmic Life villains hiding in the emerald dream somewhere just created a borg collective hivemind from the dragon aspects where they are finishing each others' sentences and repeating a mantra of together, family, together, family, together, family, together, family that totally excludes and victimizes every mortal other than dragons on the planet. They stopped being protectors of Earth/Magic/Time/Life/Dream and turned into a xenophobic group of greedy predators that only focus on themselves and their own genetic relatives.
Yet all 3 of these major raids was presented as if they meant something else..... and you'll have some players that didn't pay attention to any of the quests, or fans that didn't actually play but just watched some cinematics online.... all assuming that these 3 raids mean something different from what the actual bad writing showed. Some of them still think that Vault had any evidence for Titans doing anything wrong, and Aberrus being some objective account of what Neltharion did, and Amirdrassil being some kind of empowerment by Azeroth in dimensions where she does not exist......... all of which is wrong; and not presented in the writing that way at all.
Whoa, this is really well written. This is one of my favourite parts about making videos; when people have such detailed and thought out comments. Really brilliant analysis!
This means either the writing is too smart for its own good (which is bad) or the writers just don't know what they are doing (which is also bad).
The writing of early WoW and War3 was much simpler, and it worked. While also having enough space for secrets, theories and unreliability.
@@eldrevo I think the less we knew sometimes, the better too. Like in regards to things like Elune and the Titans for instance. I think attempting to explore all elements of the lore can sometimes cause more harm than good, and I've always been interested in peoples interpretation of things.
@@edd_TV It's also about the pace and medium of delivering these huge chunks of exposition. One thing is to do out in a titan or void or emerald dream themed expansion, another is to rush through all of it in one patch or even worse, read a book about how void lords were behind each and every monor conflict in vanilla timeline :D
The existence of the Incarnates was already questionable. They are literally just budget Elemental Lords, and there is no logic behind their powers. The Titans themselves bestoved power upon the Dragon Aspects, meanwhile the Incarnates didn't even get them from the likes of Ragnaros or Neptulon. So how they are on par with the Aspects is a great mystery to me. Its not even being gifted by a Titan vs. Elemental Lord, simply just Titan vs. the elements.
The Primalist followers of the Incarnates also came out of nowhere. Why would random taurens, night elves, and others serve them? For the Twilight's Hammer, the whispers of the Old Gods are a decent explanation, but here we have nothing.
I believe your point about the Neltharion we see in the cinematic being a faceless one is actually wrong, that is the real Neltharion. As the writers wanted to communicate Neltharion's fall into madness with that video, it has to be him. I mean, this comment borders tinfoil hat territory sometimes, but its not unreasonable, as this expansion raises far more questions than it answers. (We still don't know what Sargeras was doing around Azeroth in the Antorus raid btw)
Other than this, I believe almost every piece of lore in Dragonflight is terribly, unacceptably incoherent with the previous canon. I actually believe its on par with Shadowlands in terms of "quality". The dialogue was also painful to listen to :D
everyone talking about this thinks in the sense of "there is nothing wrong with it". The problem is not that. World of Warcraft was for a public, Guild Wars was for a public, Final Fantasy was for a public. Guild Wars 2 did not changed to what public it was, just changed how the game was made. It did took experience, people and know how from WoW, but someone who played Guild Wars 1 would be thrilled to play Guild Wars 2 and see the story go on. See Joko, or go to the far north. The story is the same. Final Fantasy can trace its story back to the kind of thing it always had, even if Endwalker changed the game in many ways, it was the gameplay and some aspects of the storytelling, but not the story itself.
World of Warcraft tried to change TO WHAT PUBLIC IT IS. Tried to change its core aspects. The problem is that specifically that, but the thing that World of Warcraft was unique as what it WAS, but not now. Now it is ONE MORE among many games, and when compared to them, it is the WORSE. World of Warcraft were cartoonish, but would get the public that wasnt interested in "Fashion Wars" or "Visual Novel Dungeon". Trying to copy some aspects of GW2 and FF, WoW ended up as the worse of them all, because it doesnt have the graphics, it does not have the story telling capacity, and it does not have THE TALENT which makes the other games.
World of Warcraft was good when it was able to go where other games did not went, to the dark, to the WAR in Warcraft. All xpacs from Cata onwards had one too many "slices of life" stories, that broke the game, long before the "chosen one" trend wrecked it definitely. Always, they start a xpac promising WoW to be what it was, only to change to a grindy bogus story telling. It only went worse to the point that after Legion, it became unbearable. There are no villains , there are no heroes, just "narratives". It is stupid. The game itself, all other games as games are better, either easier or more interesting to play.
WoW changed from a unique game to a specific public to one more game in a "bargain bin" because it is the cheapest sub. GW2 is free, but to get it now you have an upfront cost of xpacs if you want to really see it well.
But WoW might be the reason most people are abandoning the MMORPG as a whole and instead migrating to story driven co-op/solo games or MOBAs. WoW showed to people that you might be betrayed by a game you spent years "funding" just for the whims of a developer.
You speak a lot of truth. Betrayal is a strong word, but certainly a valid one. I know many who would agree with that and everything else you are saying. Thank you for sharing such a passionate comment!
another relatable banger!!! im so happy to see another video from you, you definitely pay attention to detail and do your research. happy to see you getting the views you deserve as well, thanks a ton for the great content!! :)
Thank you so much for your kind words. I'm glad you enjoyed it!
I think to me, the spirit of the game became more and more lost as every player was driven towards the same goals and the same story. In the earlier versions of the game, you'd always be able to go off and do your own thing, be that herbalism or some other profession, earning reputation with a particular faction for those sweet extra crafting recipes or running some quests to earn yourself some money.
As the game has progressed into having more of a core storyline and a destined endgame of "you must grind this currency/etc", it just doesn't feel like your character is unique or special. Everyone must be the hero, everyone must be able to do everything, and you must do these particular things in order to stay relevant. Sure, there are still factions you can go grind reputation with or professions you can train, but where's the unique payoff for doing this? You won't get recognised for your proficiency in a profession, or your reputation with a faction. You'll just become another name in a list thousands strong. The game has been moulded into a safe, smooth sphere rather than a game with rough, quirky edges that gave it character and enjoyment.
Love the video again Ed, can't wait to see the next one - you're covering all the parts that many find hard to put into the right words and it's nice to see it all put together to well!
That is very true. They have tried to revamp professions in Dragonflight, but I'm honestly not very keen on it. I just don't think it's ever going to serve any real importance again, outside of things like Enchanting and Alchemy. Even Jewelcrafting has taken a hit because sockets are now tertiary RNG on gear. Thank you for your kind words, and thanks for watching!
Something about the story has rubbed me the wrong way for a while and I seemingly didn't know how to describe the feeling. Thank you for putting it into words.
Also that Ragnarok Online music at the end was a real hit to the nostalgia!
I'm glad you enjoyed it! Thank you for watching!
Warcraft 2 had a lot of important world building lore. This why i was happy to see Deathwing once again and this is one of the reasons why i love Cataclysm.
Yeah, I think a lot of people didn't have that connection because they didn't play Warcraft 2. A lot of my friends had no idea who Deathwing was. But that's great, and it's nice to see people who have a genuine love for Cataclysm as it gets quite a hard time.
Friend, you just earned a subscriber.
I love your videos.
Your assessment of why Vanilla resonated so much with people is exactly as you said.
"you are the story teller".
Here is this fantastic world that you know from w1/w2/w3 and you can be a part of it.
You can be whatever you want!
The tabula rasa approach worked very well, and while it makes sense that the hero of countless campaigns 7 datadiscs later is addressed and viewed as hero, it also devalues the experience.
Because it was not just you who felled Nefarian, dethroned the Lich King, saved azeroth from countless dangers...it was a large contingent of likeminded heroes.
So why are you specifically addressed as a hero? Furthermore the freshly created char, is also a hero...even with no achievements under it's belt...
It just feels off somehow.
I liked to start as a nobody and not being acknowledged by the legends of Warcraft, earning the right to talk to Rexxar felt impactful, having a shady meeting with Akama had atmosphere.
One of my proudest moments in WoW history is when I turned in the Onyxia head in.
The whole guild was gathered there, and we all were cheering on ventrillo.
And the achievement of finishing the quest benefited the rest of the assembled Horde too! Free buff for everyone!
We don't get moments like this anymore unfortunately, and replicating them would not be possible either (I think?)
new players must be super confused by the story, there is nothing to anchor it to a place or a moment.
I am a veteran and I am confused!
When we started in 2004, we came fresh of the heels of Warcraft 3, lore and stories were shared by all.
A common reference library if you will.
Now with people coming back, or starting out for the 1st time, where do they start to catch up with the story?
At the very beginning? Burning of Stormwind? Pandaria expedition?
How do the zones even make sense anymore? There is no continuity unfortunately.
The game is ripe for a "reboot", but for that you would need a Warcaft 4 that would somehow be a world wide hit...
P.S.: Battlegrounds killed world PvP, fly mounts didn't help, but they weren't the main killer.
Thank you for your support and kind words! I'm glad to hear the videos have resonated with you so well, and I love hearing players point of view! I would love a Warcraft 4 personally but I can't ever envisage it and I feel like they just want to do all their storytelling through WoW now, which some people don't even enjoy. It's a really tricky one. I made another video called 'The Island of Irrelevancy' if you are interested in checking that out. It's a video that is dedicated to new player experiences.
Thank you again for your support and expressing your feelings!
What you said about Blizzard most likely not expecting WoW to go feels so true. I don't think most series can go on forever. They have to end at some point. And I am of the opinion that WoW should end.
The Worldsoul Saga could have some finality to it, but I don't think so. I think the culmination of The Worldsoul Saga will likely usher in a new era of WoW, for better or worse. The game is gigantic though, and so much of it irrelevant now, and it's a crying shame. I think as good as Blizzard were at taking from other games, FFXIV had that reinforcement built into it from the get-go to make sure things stayed relevant and could be played through. Warcraft drew on expansion features that would simply fade into obscurity when that expansion concluded, rather than evergreen features or systems that could still be played through as if they were brand new. I think Blizzard are attempting to look through this lens now with 'delves' going forward, but we'll have to wait and see how that pans out.
Do I think WoW should end? I'm not sure. I don't think it will ever end. I think even if they pulled retail servers today, people would just go and do it all over again in Classic. It's an addiction and love like no other. Anybody who talks badly about WoW, even as toxic and ignorant as it may get sometimes, are only doing it because they love it and want it to be better. There is obviously a better and more sensible way of articulating this, but we're all passionate about the game and want it to be the best it can possibly be.
@@edd_TV I guess I am asking for something not many people want. A lot of people just want to have a forever game where it continues into perpetuate. At that point it is just a vehicle for other things like social interaction. Which I guess is fine but man I really dislike the feeling I have knowing that if WoW fails it will end in a bad way. That ending will be in the middle of something and it will suck not getting to see that ending.
For now I'll headcannon my own heading but I would love to see a somewhat official ending.
Also I just want to say thank you for being a fairly positive WoW creator. You obviously don't like a lot about morden WoW but you deliver the criticism in a good way.
@@Knight1029 I think it has gotten too complex in its nature, from the storytelling to the gameplay. I understand where you're coming from though!
These videos are mainly for discussion, entertainment and opinion and don't necessarily mirror my views. I still love retail, for better or worse. It'll always be my game, and I really hope to see it improve. I just think it's important to have these conversations and I'm always curious as to what people think. Thank you for sharing your thoughts, and thank you for your kind words!
@@edd_TV MMOs just have that tendency towards being complex. Players have to be doing something and so giving them a lot of stuff to do is important. Even if that stuff isn't particularly relevant or connected to story.
And I like the discussions it has brought about. Your comment sections is really cool with that. I love seeing what people are saying and doing.
dude the RO music at the end brought back a surge of memories I had suppressed
It has one of the best OSTs out there! Thank you for watching!
Jaina trying to push Varian and all the dreadlord theories, even the dreadlord skins dropping in hots... what a missed opportunity 🙁
I definitely think that was their plan at one point! I feel like the player base were really onto something so they decided to go the other way with it. We got a Jaina fight in Battle for Azeroth I guess but I do agree, hugely missed opportunity.
@@edd_TV The BFA fight did feel like a cop out after they realised they could have done more with that story
I thought that the line of Garrosh calling Sylvanas a bitch was long removed before SL
You may actually be right. It looks like it was removed in 2020 but before Shadowlands came out. Well spotted!
Keep them coming Edd! Can clearly see your passion in these videos! -Nightmyst
You've never disappointed me, Nightmyst. Thank you!
Great video, immediate sub, good retrospective aswell, your analysis was spot on, looking forward to more 😊
That's very kind of you, thank you for saying so! I'm glad you liked it!
The problem with sanitization is just that.
Sanitization is boring. People dont play games to be bored.
next expansion: "dragons? aspects? get with the program buddy, this is not dragonflight lmao"
I wouldn't be surprised at all. The characters do often become so forgettable/irrelevant so quickly when an expansion ends. Knowing the Aspects have been blessed by Azeroth, they surely must have a place going forward into The Worldsoul Saga, right? .....Right? We'll see!
They copied the structure of MoP in BFA, and that's why it feels so... empty, at least in its development. They could have done so much with the faction war but chose to portray the Horde as the villains, once again.
And no, just because Saurfang felt sad all through the expansion, doesn't make it better. Actually it make it worse, because the horde turned into a kind of red alliance.
Very true. Having the Horde complicit in Sylvanas's actions was very bad. As an Alliance player, I never really thought about how that might make Horde players feel, because I always saw them as 'the bad guys' from my POV, as far as faction war went and all that, they were 'the enemy', you know? But you're right. It was a raw deal and unnecessary.
They need to rehire whoever did the Suramar questline.
It's crazy to think about how laughably bad the entire campaign in Dragonflight is when they ARE capable of putting emotional moments in the game. The Taivan quests are a good example of WoW doing its thing, when the ppl who don't care just don't read anything, and the others can take the time to read what's going on, just like it's always been in the game. I personaly hadn't thought about the Tyrande/Malfurion kiss in the way you talk about before. To me the moment was bad because it served no purpose: as you said, what was the point of bringing Ysera back? Malfurion could have stayed and done nothing and there wouldn't have been any change. But hard agree that we're not used of having character be so touchy feely and this change isn't necessary a bad thing
Suramar was an absolute masterpiece. My next video is solely on Legion, so there will be a lot of love for Suramar in that!
Yeah I think it is often a case of just taking a step back and thinking about things, because it can be so easy to 'nope!' things or just spew hate on something. I do understand players gripes with the touchy-feely stuff, but similarly to you, I do think it can have a place in the game if it's executed correctly.
Thank you for your comment, and thanks for watching!
Wow, this was really good!
Thanks! Glad you liked it.
WoW for me feels like the Forgotten Realms at this point, in that I'm incredibly interested in the setting and deep lore, and much less interested in the stories being told in the current timeline. I enjoy some of the current cast of characters, but the things being done with those characters aren't engaging enough to keep me reading so to speak. The *WORLD* of Warcraft is much more entertaining than the narrative at this point because the narrative doesn't know how to focus on the strengths of its setting. War Within has me tentatively excited because I've always been a fan of the Titan aspect of WoW, so I'll at least check following along, just... maybe not in-game.
I relate to this a lot. Shadowlands really hurt me and I fell out of love with it, and ultimately cut the cord for the longest time. Similarly to you though, I would keep tabs on it and still watch things here and there. I'll always love WoW no matter what happens with it. I started when I was 14 and I'm 33 now. It's impossible to just drop something like that, that has been so impactful on my life. But I really hear what you're saying. The lack of creativity and ingenuity with some of the characters really shows, and it makes me fearful for what's to come with The War Within, but we have to give them a chance.
Think story wise it suffers the same as GoT did in its final seasons. Subverting expectations and just ending up traversing a lukewarm middle ground. Arthas for example; in Shadowlands it was like "Bring him back or dont" and in the end it just felt like a damp squib ending for one of their most iconic characters which completely undermined the ICC ending.
PvP wise; Wintergrasp. Should have expanded on that. They should have inserted more open world PvP to carry on mimicking Warhammer Online. Ashran seemed like an attempt at another Wintergrasp but was still to compartmentalised and maybe a bit out of the way. Think they should have just inserted persistent battlefronts within the current continents and expanded on the Wintergrasp dungeon theme by creating game mechanics and content to drive participation.
Though maybe its to late for that now.
I absolutely agree with you.
I think for something like Wintergrasp, I wonder if that's a rose-tinted glasses thing now. I remember The Battle for Wintergrasp being a truly epic experience at the time, and nothing can take that away from us, but as we have grown older and we're naturally a bit more cynical now and have jaded views, it received a lot of hate in Classic from my understanding; as did most things as people began to realise that these 'golden era's of World of Warcraft were also far from perfect. They also had a crack at it with Tol Barad in Cataclysm, but I feel Wintergrasp was the true winner as far as something like this went. I think there is for sure opportunities to do something like this in the future. Maybe they could do something in a similar fashion to the Trial of the Crusader, almost like a tournament or something? So there is that mutual respect between the Alliance and Horde but also that quest for glory.
WG was great at the time of course! Wrath in itself felt like a big step in the right direction and the battleground existed within the fabric of that. I think rose tinted glasses certainly play a part - and I think since then we've seen WoW - and games in general evolve - so going back to somewhere we've been before wont ever have the same feeling.
I think their best bet is to separate the two factions in a way that doesn't interfere with storytelling to be honest. That's something I liked about Burning Crusade - people could be part of the Scryers and the Aldor regardless of whether they were Alliance or Horde. Narratively there was a division which had no impact on the overall conflict between the Alliance and Horde.
With a big game like this now any changes are going to be complex undertakings though. Can understand why expansions feel like compartmentalised experiences because its just easier to approach them like that. A shame in some regards as some mechanics certainly deserved to exist beyond their expansion (and its taken a while for them to come back to customisable druids as well) but as core game mechanics are neglected the game slowly - as you said - loses what made it great.
Dragonflight is awesome in my opinion. They made the right call with a lot more design choices this time around.
Glad you like it! I think gameplay wise it's solid. I'm a big fan of dragon-riding, and I'm glad that the seasons reintroduce dungeons from the past for Mythic+, I think that's a brilliant move. The talent system was a big win too I think.
I'm in the "too little, too late" group. I left literally after 14+ years at the end of December 2020. I never really fell into one of the three pillars of WoW: Raiding, M+ or PvP and SL was the nail in the coffin for me. After experiencing the Story of FF14 and it's side content i never felt the urge to come back. I found a new home elsewhere and even though Endwalker is in it's content lull until DT, i still have so much to do, even if it's only playing the marketboard, working on some achievements or re-decoratiing my house, apartment or FC Chamber again. I basically saw what other MMOs had to offer and how much WoW is lacking for me personally.
That's great about you feeling happy in a new home. I really love FFXIV too, and I can't wait for Dawntrail. And I definitely plan on covering FFXIV on this channel too.
Another great video man. They definitely need to return to the style of the old warcraft games. But i am fine with a bit of the emotional stuff if they handle it like they did with Arthas in WOTLK
Thanks a lot. Glad you liked it!
Speaking as someone who got into WoW during Legion, even I have felt this shift in narrative. I have done my due diligence and read into the lore in good detail, which left me excited for the Classic remakes! but the tonal shift from what I was used to was apparent. We all feel it but I think the definitive point is different for everyone, whether it be mechanically, narratively or contextually (Activision Blizzard :/ ). Anyways interesting vid! very happy to have subscribed at an early stage of a channel with this kind of content
That's really true, and a well written comment. Thank you for your kind words and your support!
How the hell do you have only 950 subs? This was an awesome video and I'm looking forward to see more from you. Quite often, I find myself criticizing WoW and someone might say I'm a hater but the truth is, that I love the game so much that I'm forced to criticize, because I don't want to see the game ending up dead. I have high hopes for the Wordsoul Saga, though (even though my hopes were betrayed, crushed and laughed at by Shadowlands). Gotta believe, gotta believe.
That's very kind of you to say. I'm glad you enjoyed it! I only started making videos last month, so I started from nothing! I think that is the best outlook and thought process to have. We aren't haters, it's because we care and feel so much for it. It's more profound confusion or disappointment than anything else.
We do have to believe! I'm cautiously optimistic.
Thank you for your kind words, and watching the video.
I have mixed feelings - coming from Warcraft 2 and 3, the faction war in WoW always felt... artificial. It was legitimately wild going into WoW after Warcraft 3 and feeling like an entire game's worth of story development about the pitfalls of clinging to old hatreds and the benefits of moving past them basically undone for the sake of adhering to the Alliance and Horde dynamic. I'm still not entirely clear on why the Night Elves joined the Alliance, it was never really explained and the best you can piece together is half-forgotten plot threads and implications like Warsong Gulch. Ultimately the Night Elves are in the Alliance because they were a major WC3 faction that had to be represented and we needed faction balance (alongside them being toned down from fiercely protective bloodthirsty forces of nature).
I view the two factions as active hindrances to good storytelling with actual grit. WoW *should* have more conflict, but the factions prevent this more than anything. PvP and faction balance, for instance, dictates that each faction needs to have a roughly equal amount of "territory" and easily accessible content. If the factions were merged though? That opens up a lot of possibilities like, say, the Undercity going rogue and becoming hostile to players for an entire expansion. The Siege of Orgrimmar could have been an entire patch cycle and set of quest objectives instead of just a raid. Because the people who used to hang out in Orgrimmar can just head to Ironforge, Stormwind, UC, or wherever else. You can reclaim cities and make them city hubs without worrying about its implications on player accessibility (which they're doing now anyway - just in a much more contrived way).
Hell, every faction war that's every occurred in WoW history has been instigated by a third party manipulating things behind the scenes rather than a natural conflict between the factions. And honestly I can't imagine why, absent contrived plot and gameplay reasons and the constant barrage of world-ending threats preventing political alliances from shifting, a number of individual races haven't left entirely or changed their allegiance (esp on the Horde side). Not to mention the Pandaren just forever being in an eternal blood war with other Pandaren because of a minor ideology difference that lead to some joining one or the other faction.
I do agree the game has become... sanitized though. Now, personally I have mixed feelings about the removed/altered content. As a woman, cleaning up some of the suggestive pictures was probably a good call, but the old /silly jokes and mount names etc were at best eyeroll worthy and not worth removing IMO. That said, there is something to be said about them pushing the game in the direction of being effectively the muzak of games.
However, I stand by my statement that destroying the faction system allows for *more* intricate storytelling, grit, intrigue, and betrayal than having to maintain the illusion of "balance" does.
I think you are right. I think for its time it was great but it's very outdated now. Narratively it made sense for the most part, besides elements such as Night Elves like you say. It's definitely harmful for the modern game though, for a myriad of reasons. It's damaging to player experiences and some players will never get to interact with one another. I was sad to see it go, but it makes complete sense why it had to happen. I think for me I loved it because it's what made WoW unique from anything else, but I really felt the brunt of it back when I played on Shattered Hand, and playing on a desolate Alliance server for so long was really miserable.
Thank you for taking the time to watch the video and write this up, I really appreciate it. It was a great read and you make a lot of interesting points!
It’s world of elfcraft now. We got blood elves, night elves, high elves, void elves, highborne, nightborne, felborne. All the dragon aspects that blizzard likes turns into elves, we got dragon a race but they also get an elf form because they need to be cuter we got spiders that are almost certainly going to have elf forms. They’re like the crabs of World of Warcraft
That's a good observation. It feels like Dwarves are also on the rise as well, with a third Dwarf race coming in The War Within. I think accessibility is cool and it's fun to see all of these different kind of races or 'sub-races', but there is a hell of a lot of Elf stuff going on, like you say.
@@edd_TV I mean at least most races have a sub set of races. Orcs, Tauren, trolls, humans, dwarves gnomes, Draenei, elves. I think that’s fine, but I think we’re going overboard with the elves. Especially now that the new races are getting elf forms just to be more pallet-able to cater to the new softer World of Warcraft they’re creating.
@@kylekopsi7039 Yeah I think the sub races were cool, and I really liked the further customisations they added in Shadowlands, which I'd love to see even more of. But I do think it's going a bit overboard like you say.
@@edd_TV I was thinking about what races don’t have sub races yet and I can’t think of any besides the undead. I don’t really count the zombie elves because that just reinforces my other point 😂
Shadowlands story is so much better if Zovaal isn't the Jailer, but the Primus is the real Jailer.
It's such a compelling theory, I love it. I think there has to be some truth to it. I think even if it wasn't Blizzard's intentions, they should absolutely run with it at this point. Shadowlands can't really be erased, especially as far as Anduin is concerned, so I think they need to try and embrace it in the best way possible, rather than try and sweep it under the carpet. They have to try and find a way of being proud to show their scars and failures, and just find a way of turning it into something positive.
While i've never pay much attention to the narrative, it's absolutely true that it has changed. And, from my point of view, i think this can be noticed in the gameplay too: the leveling experiencie is so boring because your character is absurdly OP, far behind are the times when you had to be careful when pulling mobs because they could kill you easily.
It's very faceroll, yeah. It's all designed about getting you to max level as quickly and effortlessly as possible.
@@edd_TV yeah, but it also makes it incredibly boring.
@@eduardoubilla4307 I wholeheartedly agree. My first video is in regards to a new player experience, and how incredibly confusing and boring that is. The game has been simplified to get people involved in Blizzard's true focus, which is endgame. The landscape has just shifted from what it once was, and I think a lot of players dislike that and that is why they take refuge in Classic, because it's what they know and love.
It's like a TV show. If you're successful then suddenly you'll have to make 12 seasons instead of the originally planned 2. The writing will fall off and it'll be hard to keep the story going on in the same way without repeating itself forever.
I think the game is in a tough spot lore wise.
Maybe not the best example but I'm giving a shout out to Ted Lasso here. That show was going to be 3 seasons from the jump, regardless of how successful it was. And it was brilliant. And I think that's so good, sticking to their guns instead of getting swept up with the success and carrying on until it becomes twisted and unrecognisable. I think we could talk about Game of Thrones too, but that mainly came down to a lack of source material.
It's for sure in a tough spot, and I'm not sure if it can be saved, but fingers crossed for The Worldsoul Saga!
We need to remove every copy of every Avengers movie from every WoW writer. They've proven untrustworthy to own them!
I do feel that it could have been an epic moment, but I don't think Fyrakk was the person to use it on. The Jailer would have probably made more sense, considering he was supposedly the biggest threat of all time, but Shadowlands was already in the mud. I think a cutscene like that to conclude the expansion would have absolutely incensed people.
@edd_TV yeah, not sure you could do a lot to repair shadowlands. I know they intended for there to be infinite realms in the shadowlands and not just the 4 we saw, but they really failed to show that. it felt like a theme park to me, and that was after many years of thinking the Shadowlands was more like the emerald dream, a realm reflecting the real world. Too Disney is my favourite criticism of Warcraft writing these days. But that audience is huge, and they eat it up so I get why they went for it.
@@aboomer420 'Theme park' is a great way to describe it. Whilst it was cool to travel to them through the in-between the first couple of times, it was pretty jarring not being able to just fly freely from zone to zone. It felt really odd. You raise a good point about Disney, and it does make sense. It's just such a radical switch in tone I guess and some people are struggling with it.
i quite like garrosh in 5.4
in patch 6.0 to even 7.4 it felt like the game just became soft and it was just big old alien baddies.
shadowlands didn't feel particularlly evil.
Garrosh very well may be Warcraft's best ever villain. Most would surely say The Lich King, but he's definitely up there. I loved him, and was disappointed with the way he went out in WoD.
Shadowlands was definitely dark but when you see a guy drinking cups of tea in Revendreth, or the cutesy Ardenweald, it kinda overrides that feeling of darkness. I get where you're coming from.
horde and alliance working together have been the theme since warcraft 3 so imo they should've just made cross factiona a thing ages ago. the perfect opportunity was legion when both factions lost their leaders and an opportunity for introductions to the "younger" generations of azeroth having lived through the conlict and the crisises and found common ground. but you know BFA happened and sucked scum out of a sewer so it is what it is i suppose
I mean technically the Horde and Alliance didn't exactly exist in Warcraft III, not like they do in WoW, but you are right; when it's crunch time and the pressure is on they will band together to take out the bigger threat. I personally think the factions should have remained divided as it was such a staple of what WoW is and made it different from other MMOs, but I digress. It seemed necessary. I do agree with you that Legion could have been a big turning point with that 'new generation', but there seemed to be so much confusion with the narrative in BFA.
Man always thought taranzhu mocking garrosh was cringe. What business would he have knowing anything like that.
Interesting point! It's possible he may have learned it from somebody else, or it could have been explained off screen (like so many other things that tend to happen within this game). It's a valid point though. It's unlikely he knew the Hellscream name prior to Garrosh's arrival on Pandaria, but who knows?
One of the worst thing in my humble opinion is that every bloody dead character comes back. (or lost and be should be dead cause x reason) It is so infuriating that there are no stakes and do not matters if some one dies, except if that said character is from the horde.
Also a personal pet peeve that is the allience is still a goody two shoes, only horde characters caused major trouble.
It would have been such a good story that Tyrande gone full crazy after bfa and become a threat that must be dealt with.
I felt the same thing about Shadowlands. It felt like a 'Greatest Hits' of dead Warcraft characters. You can tell they regret killing some of them off. Alternate realities seem pretty dangerous too, but WoD did pave the way for Legion with Gul'dan so I'm gonna let that slide I think. I think you're right about the Alliance too, especially in BFA as Sylvanas' actions essentially condemned the entire Horde at the time and painted them all as the 'bad guys'. That seemed unfair. I also share your opinion that I think Tyrande has been misused/wasted. Thanks for watching!
@@edd_TV Also I believe WoD setup another great idea for an expansion. The mag'har questline introduced a rather interesting scenario. We already know that the draenai went overboard with the light in Dreanor and basically waged a religous war against the orcs (thus forcing the mag'har to flee). What if we face a twisted version of the burning legion, led by the Naaru and their draenei and "converted" orc servants.
@@peterphilipson2589 It has potential to set up some really exciting Light vs Void stuff. That would be crazy!
I think one of BFA's greatest crimes was making the Horde the inarguable bad guy of the two factions through Sylvanas' warcrimes, and then almost immediately moved on to ye olde 'big bad' threat with Azsharah and N'zoth. It felt like the only faction conflict that was had was [Horde commits cataclysmic war crime] and then straight into [Factions work together to save the world again].
It was worse than Garrosh, and the poor writing and story of the rest of the expac only made that damage cement into the lore instead of righting wrongs while the iron was still hot.
I have nothing against x-faction stuff and Horde/Alliance cooperation, but coming straight out after BFA's unresolved issues, conflict and in-lore trauma, and in such an incredibly unearned and forced manner just makes BOTH faction's place in the current setting really awkward and incoherent.
PS: I also think a lot of the issue of modern WoW story is its tone, pace and feel. I'd argue that vastly similar plot-beats told in the old style, tone and using the World Building properly would work a LOT better. By World Building, I mean that SL, DF (and BFA to an extent) failed to use the World of Warcraft while telling their story within it.
- You're telling me the Bad Guy of DF's first half is a rogue faction of anti-Titan Shamans, the second half is full blown FIRELANDS 2.0 and there isn't a single Earthen Ring representation in the entire expac?
- You're telling me we get an entire Druid and Emerald Dream patch but THE DRUID of the setting (Malfurion) is just completely missing from it, and only [Night Elf Druids-TM] are represented? Not Thornspeakers, not Loa-Druids from Zandalar? Or event the Pandaren-style Monks (who worship Celestials - aka Pandaria's WILD GODS/LOAS)?
- You're telling me we get the Primalists, an entire cult/faction of anti-Titan Azerothian races big enough to trigger a world-wide invasion in pre-patch and threaten the whole of the Dragon Isles, but we're never told or shown where they come from or how they formed? They just... happen to be there now? And once the writing team is done with them, we're just vaguely told in a pre-10.2 interview that their numbers are diminished and we're done dealing with them? WHAT? When? How? Who? Where?
- Imagine how LEGION would've felt if it was delivered the same. Only Demon Hunters show up to fight the Legion, the rest of Azeroth is briefly represented in a 30s cutscene of the faction leaders showing up to a little battle pre-Raid. We don't see the classes, organisations and orders of Azeroth come together at every turn to fight the fight. Just a bunch of main characters from the Broken Isles fighting the Legion with the help of a couple of DH characters and the PlayerTM. I bet you that even WOTLK would've felt shit and underwhelming if it were told the way Danuser and Co. delivered Dragonflight.
That's true. It was so different from when Garrosh became the antagonist and we had to do the Siege of Orgrimmar. For a while in BFA it did feel as though the Horde were just as complicit as Sylvanas until Saurfang and Thrall took a stand. And then obviously with Azshara and N'zoth, which just seemed like a huge blunder. I always thought Nazjatar would have been its own continent and expansion, and instead it was reduced to a single zone, which just felt sad. I think Azshara and N'zoth deserved their own expansions and fleshed out storylines, but they were just lost in the shuffle of BFA. I agree with your points. Thanks for your comment!
99% of WoW's story-telling issues is in the tone in which the story is being told.
We're getting such a plastic-looking experience, it's impossible to even try to get invested when it feels so obviously inauthentic.
As for Wrathion in the Zaralek Caverns, yep; that's how many many players felt, myself included. But it was pointed out in a youtube video (which I can't recall exactly atm which one) that this whole Wrathion and Sabellian mischaracterization was on purpose, because they are being influenced by the manipulation of the Void in Aberrus! And that after the raid, they understand it, and decide to let Ebonhorn be the Aspect because he wasn't manipulated and remained chill.
We simply just don't get enough of it either. And I know that's not an issue to the vast majority of people who just want to clang and bang in Mythic+ and Raids, but it begs the question why even have a storytelling experience if you aren't prepared to do it correctly? I wholeheartedly agree with you.
The faction thing to me is just old and tired. How many times can we go back at each other's throats only to then work together towards a common goal? Not to mention, imo, usually nothing really ever comes from the faction storylines (save for the burning of teldrassil and undercity). For the most part, to me, it just got old and never amounted to anything.
As for dragonflight, I feel like they just wanted a fresh start. They tried to go back down that dark, gritty road in shadowlands and everyone left. So it seems that the fans of the game have changed just as much as the game itself. A big bad like the jailer looks and sounds exactly like the type of bad guy we've had for years, but perhaps there in lies the problem. "Times change" and so did wow's audience. Now I definitely, agree that there's a serious lack of conflict in a lot of the story in dragonflight. That cinematic leaves much to be desired.
And to the point that all the races feel the same. I'd wager there are simply too many for the game to invest time and resources into, aside from the times where they are the main focus. I mean, the worgen just got gilneas back. Their counterparts, the goblins have some crappy little town in Azshara of all places. The playable pandaren have been stuck in narative limbo since forever. And I bet we won't hear a peep about most of the races add during/after legion for a very, very long time. Just too much else going on that's far more important that affect the greater scope of players.
Yeah, it's absolutely run its course at this stage I think. Similarly to what Anduin said, it felt like they were just....fighting.
I agree with what you're saying. Shadowlands was very dark and regardless of cutesy places like Ardenweald, it was about death. I don't think a cohesive storytelling experience could have saved that expansion. There were so many issues with it. I think you're absolutely right, they wanted a new start with Dragonflight, and I think we might look back in time and realise that Dragonflight was the catalyst. If The Worldsoul Saga is a massive hit, we may have Dragonflight to thank, because this was the introduction of Iridikron. It will be interesting.
I agree with your point on the races too. Thank you for watching, and sharing your thoughts and feelings.
Quality vid dude its a sub from me.
Thanks a lot! Glad you liked it.
I very much like WoW how it is now compared to pre-Cata, as it has a direction in terms of storytelling. Back then, like you said, it wasn't clear what the story was and how I was supposed to be helping. I don't like games where there is too much freedom as this gives me choice fatigue. I am a busy professional that want to play a game where things are laid out and clear to me so I can make the most out of my time there. I am not a teenager anymore and definitely don't have 12h+ time to play a game.
I'm the same. I've recently tried getting into Fallout 3 and it's quite scary and overwhelming to just be able to go wherever the hell I want. I think it's great, it's just very strange for me. I don't have an issue making choices but I do like direction, but not crazy linear, if that makes sense? I'll drink to that on having to adult too! Times have just changed and we don't have that freedom and accessibility anymore. We can't stay up night after night grinding anymore.
@@edd_TVDon't get me wrong, it is actually great to have that kind of freedom in a game and to actually have it work as well till the end of it. I also don't like it to be crazy linear and I enjoyed all Fallout games from Fallout 1 to Fallout 4. I just don't have the time anymore to delve that deep into something that offers this kind of freedom and my OCD makes me want to take it all at once if possible. It caters to some people but mostly people who actually have the time to dive deep into the story and setting. If you're an adult with kids and still have time to do this, you are either rich completely from passive income or you don't have a job, or you are divorced and don't stay with the kids. It's just way different than our teen years. Still, kudos to the Fallout and Elder Scrolls series who actually made it work with such non-linearity.
@@Soromeister I think it's tough for me because I don't think I've experienced many games like that. I think the freedom is great, and it really does take exploration to a new level. It was just very strange to me. I do really agree with your thoughts though. Thanks for sharing!
I kinda disagree with your point, but agree with your sentiment around 9:32
Yes, the WoW universe and feel IS defined by factions and its races. But not on their conflict. I present to you... Warcraft 3.
Not only that game had amazing stand alone stories for all of its factions, they were at war not with 'the entirety of a faction' rather, regional conflicts that were nuanced, complex, and factions existed as a way to tether order to Azeroth and come together to protect them.
The issue we saw in Cataclyms onwards is that Blizzard simplified that nuanced conflict to: Horde leader is straight up a villain that both factions must oppose. They liked that story so much they told it twice with -a single- expansion as a buffer (And I'm sorry if you didn't catch Sylvanas evil undertones in Legion, dear reader, but they were there).
This alone killed the faction conflict as it were, believe it or not. Because it was never about "Horde vs. Alliance there can be only one" and more like "Two super powers competing for influence at a stalemate".
It gave character for both Horde and Alliance. Trying to make faction conflict THE MAIN FOCUS of the story simply lead Blizzard into being lazy and making one of the factions the villain (the Horde. Twice. I still can't believe it happened twice!)
Cross faction guilds -should- exist. Cross faction collaboration -was a thing in lore since Warcraft 3- and is a constant in WoW.
I now point you to Dragonflight and Warwithin. The way story is being handled is the issue here - There is no Alliance or Horde. There is the Player Character and the Big Important Named Characters saving the world. There is no faction divide, no faction identity, no exclusive stories, no different perspectives - And that is the KEY to understand why Warcraft 3 worked so well and so did early wow:
Different Perspectives.
My take from War3 was how interesting the Horde was written, how they elevated Orcs to complex characters and break the mold on the 'always chaotic evil' archetype, while you were hard focused on Arthas journey - And that is what made it special. So many different ideas and perspectives are bound to reach people in different manners. WoW current storyline and for the next 3 expansions seem to have forgotten that and is instead giving us one unified vision of its world, making it blander than oatmeal.
You make a lot of great points and I do agree with you. I have no issue with cross faction being a thing, it was extremely archaic and damaging to the social experience, but I think it made me sad because it was something I was so used to and it felt so core to WoW and what made it unique from anything else. I agree that faction conflict as a story is bad. I don't think it's a draw at all narratively, especially because it always ends with the factions teaming up to take out that bigger threat, it just made even more sense to abolish them. I think in the modern game, the most we really get from exclusive stories or perspectives is the heritage armor questlines, and they are just way too short. I hope they can expand on those in the future and do more things to actually make you FEEL like you are part of that race, you know?
Thanks for watching and taking the time to type this up, I really appreciate it!
@@edd_TV No joke, the reason why I returned was the Orc heritage questline.
Then I did the others and they are wildly inconsistent. Some feel like a normal quest with some members of a race (night elves) others give you a faction feel that make it all seem so special (Orcs, Humans).
And hey keep those videos coming! I watch'em all.
@@AKImeru So very true. Thank you, I really appreciate your support!
WoD had great potential indeed. Legion made me quit WoW for the first time actually. The systems ripped my brain apart tho. Besides that it was quite good but jesus christ the AP grind killed me. I was actually a huge lore guy for warcraft but all that interest slowly died off sadly. Anyways, great vid.
Wow, it was the complete opposite for me! Legion was the only WoW expansion where I actually never unsubbed. The AP grind was pretty gruelling, and only intensified into BFA. I'm sorry your interest for Warcraft has waned. Thank you, and thanks for watching!
warcraft used to be heavy metal, now is elevator jazz...
That's a new one! I think that works better than people calling it K-pop.
Im glad i quit after Cataclysm. That as the expansion you saw it start going downhill. Now i don't recognize the game and what its trying to do anymore
I know a lot of people who feel that way too. It's interesting how with Classic Cataclysm just around the corner, people are getting hyped for it. Maybe it'll be better second time around? I'm not sure though. The dungeons being significantly harder was interesting, and the shining light is of course Firelands, but Dragon Soul still fills me with so much dread. You are right though, Cataclysm is when they started making a lot of changes, and you're not alone with your thoughts and feelings. As for what they are trying to do now..I'm not even sure if they even know, which is why I think it's such an interesting question to ask who their target audience is. Thanks for watching!
Great video! I don't think I'm blizzards target demographic anyways, as i always focused on PvP, but when the expansion ruined my Barrens it just felt wrong. I would have played longer but it was clear PvP peaked in BC and was an afterthought later on. I think the changes they made were gambles on trying to get a younger demo in, but with the bones of the game being 20 years old it wont happen. If they were adventurous they could make a WoW v2 that incorporates updated game design and better engine, graphics etc but that's way too risky for Blizz and wont happen. At this point they're just milking the IP similar to star wars, marvel, etc that also lost their identities@@edd_TV
@@Pappagar It's surprising the world hasn't healed from the destruction of Deathwing all those years ago. I think we are long overdue a world revamp but I think that would make the game even more confusing and overbearing, especially for new players. And it would be a big undertaking I think. I think you are right, I think they attempted to cater to a younger demographic, which we can't really blame them for. They want to secure the future of their game, but it feels like they have burned the candle at both ends a bit now, losing both their old players and struggling to bring any new players in. My first video talks about a new player experience and how totally confusing and lost they are, and how they are just so utterly disconnected from the story and experience of those expansions they have to level in.
I think WoW 2 will happen at some point, but I don't think anytime soon. I think that will depend on how we reflect on The Worldsoul Saga when all is said and done. If it does terribly, maybe it would be panic stations and time to rip the whole thing down and build anew. I don't think it will come to that though. I think WoW will continue to weather the storms, and hopefully they become less harsh. It's a very good comparison with Marvel and Star Wars, I agree. Glad you enjoyed the video, and thanks for sharing your thoughts and feelings!
The Algorithm blesses you with its attention. I will help spread your video far and wide, for it is of good quality and sound judgment.
By the light! Thank you very much for your kind words, I appreciate it!
I have a lot of issues with modern WoW, one reason being that everything is so... "Whoa! Please help us, Champion! You're our only hope!" Meanwhile they do everything on their own in the cinematics... Not to mention the fact I am considered a demi-god (essentially) is obnoxious. I started in Vanilla. I was a nobody druid dying to furbolgs. Now I cut through everything like butter to such a degree I feel no satisfaction at all. I hate how everything is so fast-paced so I can't take my time (this is seen clearly in the community who want to steamroll everything in 0.1 seconds). There's no progressive build up, it's just NOW NOW NOW!! COMPLETE THAT QUEST NOW AND GET GEARED UP WITHIN A WEEK!!! NOOOOWWWWW!!!!!!
I dislike how everything is shoved under the rug the moment things finish (e.g. how older expansions are forgotten). Half the time I can't remember small-time characters because Blizzard kicked me out of timewalking, for instance. Who is this character who is so excited to meet me? Why has my general title been forgotten? What is happening in the alternative Dreanor, Outland, Pandaria, etc? Where's X? Who's Y? Who am I? Why is my nobody alt a champion?
On top of this, the community doesn't help. It can be so toxic and I think that's ever since servers started merging. There's no consequence anymore. People throw abuse and refuse to communicate, they call you childish names when you don't know something, the list goes on.
The art direction is one I'm conflicted about also. Everything is so colourful and vibrant. Warcraft used to be a gloomy universe of mystery, death and magic. Now it feels like a wonderland of singing, cheesy dialogue and characters hand-holding.
When I think of Warcraft, I think to the dark mysteries of Azeroth, the potentialities and old characters (mainly who narratively are dead in spirit. e.g. Sylvanas).
The power levels of our characters have indeed grown beyond measure. You've killed The Lich King, Deathwing, The Worldsoul of Argus. You ARE the champion. And I know that does irk a lot of people. I think I'm desensitised to it now after being 'The Warrior of Light' in FFXIV, as that has a similar feel, but it is very jarring. The progression side of things is totally dead in the water, and it does just feel like a rat race. It's all about getting to the end as quickly as possible and nothing seems to really have meaning anymore outside of gear. I recommend checking out my other video if you haven't already, as it does highlight some of the things you mention!
I could scream until my lungs gave out about the community World of Warcraft has cultivated in recent years, especially Classic. But I'd be fighting a losing battle. Good people do exist in the community, but they are so hard to find, and if you do find them, treasure them. I do think the servers and behaviour is genuinely policed extremely poorly. Players get away with murder, and it's really sad. People play video games to have a good time and take their mind off of real life problems, and shouldn't be subjected to abuse. However, it's easy for some people to totally disassociate a players avatar/character with them being an actual person behind the screen and having feelings. And words do hurt.
Thank you for your comment!
And thanks for your reply! I am playing SoD right now and I love it. The community there reminds me a lot of some private servers (which is a positive). I hope Blizzard doesn't abandon this and pushes into TBC.@@edd_TV
@@canislupid2466 Glad you're having fun with it! I've cleared Gnomeregan twice and also am enjoying it. I'm not sure what the plan is, but the roadmap for Classic suggests 'post 60 content', so I think it's possible we could see some new things potentially after/before Naxxramas maybe? I would actually love to into TBC with it too, but that may cause issues in regards to the things they are giving us now that belonged to both TBC/Wrath. It would be fun though!
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Stories cannot be eternally in conflict. It gets tiring when there is constantly a massive apocalyptic threat, constantly bashing those threats back to back removes the sense of danger when it becomes formulaic.
Thinking wow is too lovey is a little silly to me, as wod, legion, Shadowlands and BfA at the start certainly were full of conflict. Dragonflight feels like a necessary beach/filler episode to me, similar to MoP.
I agree. I think Blizzard knew this too, and that's why Dragonflight was designed to be this sort of 'low stakes' story, which is fine by me, but it's understandable that a lot of players found it odd after coming off the back of vanquishing the Burning Legion, a Faction War which ended up featuring Azshara and N'zoth and then a crazy death realm. It's quite difficult to go back to the norm after events like that. But I totally agree with you.
I'm not sure if players think it's too lovey dovey per se, I just think they find it unfamliar and honestly, maybe a bit uncomfortable. And that's why they attack/make fun of it. Regardless of BFA and Shadowlands' shortcomings, you are absolutely right. They were full of conflict, darkness and death. I think in time players may look back on Dragonflight and see it as a very important part in WoW's history with the Worldsoul Saga with the likes of Iridikron and such. Dragonflight will essentially have paved the way for this upcoming trilogy. It will be interesting to see how people view it in a few years time.
@@edd_TV I definitely have felt the story lacking oomph in a sense as well, so I'm not immune from that criticism either. Definitely lacks conflict, regardless of how cataclysmic it may be. The niffen patch was too much of a silly swing tonally for an expansion with only 2 zone updates.
I'd personally say with confidence that people will look back on it fondly in the same way that MoP needed to bring some green adventure back to the fold. One can only handle so much dark browns and dark greens and greys before needing a refresh.
@@pierrealexander8183 I wholeheartedly agree with you. And I think you're right about Dragonflight too. I think it was a necessary reprieve for what is inevitably going to come in The Worldsoul Saga, as we likely get teases and cliffhangers here and there until it's time for that big action again.
I really hope that Classic gets to MoP because I want people to see it in a better light. I have so much love for that expansion, and it doesn't deserve to be held in such poor regard.
I've been playing since TBC and I like the new lore 🫡🫡 big sweaty men thing? WoW's identity was also always less about the lore and more about exploring the big open world
I think that's great. For me personally I never had issues with lore until BFA and Shadowlands, and that was mainly due to how disjointed it all was. I thought Azshara and N'zoth deserved better. I also would love to agree about exploring the big open world, but I just feel like that's a lie now sadly. The world isn't as big and vast as it once was, and the majority of it is just desolate and empty. A new player wouldn't even experience half of it because they will be placed into BFA and then fast-tracked into Dragonflight. It's a real shame. But I do agree that it's always been about the lore too.
From my understanding, Danuser and crew hated the conflict/violence aspect of the game and wanted to go more co-operation 'to show there's another way'. While it does make sense that at some point the main faction conflicts will die off as time goes on, it's something you can't really push in an expansion or two. To start, Alliance and Horde have different values and cultures. While it does fit that for all the times the factions had to come together to fight serious big bads that class restrictions would start to open up, with how much gametime's passed with the lore it's simply not workable for Alliance and Horde to be all hugs so fast. Toss in how grudge holding the longer lived races are (looking at you Kaldorei) and it's not only not workable, but face palming level of ridiculous. For them to pull it off with any plausibility, it'd take gradual work through multiple expansions and killing off main characters until the earlier wars are out of living memory. Pretty much it'd take the time for our grandkids or later to be playing on our accounts. Another option would be WoW 2 with a huge time skip, but I'm not seeing that as a successful option. While there might not be much cause for a full on major faction fight like in the past at this time, there's still plenty of smaller factions to stir up trouble or escalate into a bigger than local problem.
I understand that. And I think Jaina was very much like that for the longest time. The same with Anduin. I think peace was always vital and a goal. I agree with the values and cultures, but now it feels like you can essentially play or be anything and we're all fighting for the same cause, and that's all that matters. And it just doesn't sit right with me. They all used to feel so unique, but now we're oversaturated in races and stories haven't been told well enough, with the Earthen coming in next for The War Within. It's going to be interesting seeing the Horde actually get Dwarves.
I think WoW 2 really does feel like the answer for so many. It just makes me think, who would you even task to steer that ship? Because if it's the same people who are currently doing World of Warcraft, then the game and story is likely to find the same pitfalls. I think WoW and Star Wars share very similar fates in terms of decline. Maybe due to hiring people who perhaps don't truly understand Warcraft (or Star Wars) and what it is; the cultures and values that you say. It's difficult to pinpoint. Like I said, who are they targeting as their audience these days?
Thanks for your comment!
They have already considered a time skip, and ended up with... 5 years between the latest expansions, which I doubt were explored and explained well.
So they don't have the gut to keep the consistent flow of time and deal with the limitations it implies, and don't have the gut to start over with a major time skip.
@@eldrevo I couldn't say if much was explored at all during that timeframe to be honest. It seems an afterthought. I expect we will come to learn what has been happening with Anduin in the last five years but as of everything else? Apparently unresolved or irrelevant, which is a shame. The amount of time that has elapsed since the Cataclysm makes me think that the world should be healing, and a world revamp would probably make sense at this point. You are right, there is zero consistency.
Well, I don't see how did BfA become a thing then, since at that point, Metzen was no longer working for Blizzard. I get it that the expansion ended up in the Alliance and Horde ceasing their conflicts forever, but then again, the war between them never made sense in the first place. After the battle of Hyjal, these races just wouldn't have had a reason to fight with each other, especially considering they are continents apart
@@tamas9554 I think Alex Afrasiabi was heavily involved in the seeds planted in BFA, Sylvanas' arc in particular. I know Danuser gets a lot of abuse, and he obviously has his own cross to bear with both Shadowlands and a lot of peoples opinions Dragonflight, but I think he inherited BFA in a similar fashion to Rian Johnson taking over The Last Jedi in Star Wars, but it doesn't change the fact that both were very poor in their craft with what they had to work with. You are right with Hyjal though. I think there would be reason for Humans to maybe have issues with Orcs still, in particular Jaina, because of the destruction of Theramore and such, but you are quite right.
I really enjoyed bfa but that was because i didn't see it as a continuation of legion but more like a blank slate for the story, early bfa is still some of the most fun I've had in this game from trying to stop the witch coven to trying to fight the corruption of kul'tiras and how the criminals used child labour. I hated stormsong as it had the same problem i feel Dragonflight has its got too much going on and I like having a story that's self contained and doesn't try to be lord of the rings or Marvel's avengers. And I think that's why i started hating bfa towards the end and shadowlands from the get go. If we went back to stories that are smaller in scale and give us characters that we can care about wow would be on the right track
ALSO get rid of chores i don't want daily quests or rep just let me enjoy the game and play it at my own pace without making me feel pressured into doing content
Drustvar was pretty great. The only think I really remember enjoying in Stormsong is the music. My memories of Stormsong is just doing the bee mount. I think you're right, and I agree with you. I think they are trying to move away from the amount of chores/jobs we have had to do in the past, that seems evident with Dragonflight, but it still might be more than people are used to/would like to do. Thanks for your comment!
I would have honestly preferred if the game remained loyal to the base concept of the different races, and then focused on their own story.
The tauren, orcs and trolls were a part of the Horde, but that shouldn't mean they suddenly don't have their own societies and conflicts. Same on the Alliance side, they just threw in night elves and then let the conflict unfold between the two sides. This is so much simpler than actually going and writing a different story for each race, but I think that should have been the best option.
The Horde having to deal with their own problems, and the Alliance with theirs. Give something to the undead and night elves too, there is plenty of potential in Azeroth, lots of outside dangers that could have been used as antagonistic forces for these storylines. Conflicts between playable races wasn't a necessity, especially with how unbalanced world PvP and factions ended up being.
To me, Warcraft was more of the world and those who inhabited it, instead of the red vs. blue that gained a lot of focus. But even then, the faction conflict was more of a gameplay thing, as the two often allied even in the first 2 expansions, much more than not.
Even in TBC, why make Illidan the evil faction? Why couldn't have players chose to play on their side, instead of limiting every race to just two factions? This couldn't have been applied to everything, like Arthas and the Scourge for example, but I definetly think its an interesting idea worth thinking about.
Very true, there is so much more that can (or could have) be explored. I think they attempted this with the heritage armor storylines I guess, but they were very short.
Illidan is a really interesting one, because as of Legion we now know what he was now trying to achieve, and it begs the question (similarly to the jailer), why didn't he just tell us? We could have worked together. I think you raise a lot of good points and there is definitely a glaring gap in Warcraft for something like this. It just wouldn't be a priority for them, which is such a shame.
@@edd_TV Yes, but there's even more to Illidan thats hilarious to me.
Like, sacrificing his eye and becoming a demon weren't too far for him to achieve his goal, but when he has to accept the Light?
"Infuriating! How could you, a benevolent Naaru offer me this gift to stop my sworn enemy? Laughable... now I will disenchant you like I did Gul'dan."
@@tamas9554 The Illidan stuff is fascinating, and I do wonder what that's going to be like when we see him again.
Good video, all points are well presented. Looking for more content from you :) I played wow for 14 years, quit during Bfa, skipped shadowlands and tried Dragonflight. Man....completely nothing to keep my interest...storywise it felt too disneylike, even the Shadowslands story was imo a bit better than this. I felt that the game is too different from what I am used to enjoy, so I'd say my last expansion was Legion. And astalavista, baby. I's not only about sweaty hairy men fighting each other, it's the vibe....the depth. All gone, imo.
Skipping Shadowlands was the right choice. it gets A LOT of hate, but from a narrative perspective it's all justified. I always wanted to see the game evolve and move forward. I can remember back in the day when friends I knew would try private WoW servers to go and relive Vanilla or Wrath or whatever, but I never had any interest in that, and I still don't now with Classic (outside of Season of Discovery). I always wanted to see the game continuing to blossom, so I had no issue with it evolving. But I do agree, it has changed TOO much now. If Legion was your last expansion, that's a hell of a way to bow out, and in my opinion is a true conclusion to Warcraft III.
Thanks for your kind words, I'm glad you liked it!
@@edd_TV I watched this video today and told myself "oh, this is how I want the story to be!" . th-cam.com/video/JUOs6-dPTIQ/w-d-xo.html I still hold a lot of sentiment to WoW, but just as you, am not really interested in playing through classic again. Been there, done all that. I want to see retail wow as glorious and epic....there's a lot to be done, but if done the right way.
@@TerneziaI think so too. I think in a way I'm glad I didn't play TBC and Wrath Classic, as I have friends who continued those journeys in Classic and I heard a lot of complaints that made me feel sad, because I have such high regard for both TBC and Wrath. I feel like If I went back and played those games knowing what I do now, I would just be cynical and poking holes in everything. And I don't want to taint my memories of those expansions.
It's funny how WoD actually was quite good in hindsight, but it could have been so much better
That is true, a lot of people do look back quite fondly on WoD. Some of the cutscenes were great, and I think people use the garrison as such a scapegoat. I do always get curious about what could have been in that potential Shattrath raid.
I LOVED my first leveling experience though WoD. Even going back, there are so many good storylines in the zones (Frostfire Ridge and SMV). It's such a shame thatthe expansion was hamstrung by Blizzard's over promising and under delivering
@@renatatostada3318 I agree. It was a hugely missed opportunity and remains quite a sore in WoW's legacy.
WoD wasn't bad, but there was so little content and all of how you get from MoP to WoD was hidden in a novel (though a very good novel).
@@EloquentTroll Honestly, I think Classic WoD with a fast patch cadence could unironically do quite well. Classic is mainly a raid logging game anyway, so players wouldn't complain about sitting around in their garrison this time, because if they aren't raiding, they probably aren't playing anyway.
I think it suffers from the soap opera problem. It's unending.
Legion was a perfect stopping point, narratively. The demons were the enemy we've been fighting since forever, since before WoW existed as a game, and we beat them. In an ideal world, they could have started working on WoW 2 and post Legion just maintain it until they launch the sequel, with a story set a few decades later allowing them a clean slate to start fresh with new characters, revamped factions etc. and basically do the plot they're doing now. Even if a sequel wasn't possible or desired, they still could have been brave and done a time skip and revamp for the post Legion expansion.
Point is, after Legion all we got was bloat, both narratively and gameplay-wise. We didin't really need BfA, Shadowflight or Dragonlands. It's nonsensical, no one cares, barely anyone can follow it anymore. Sure, there were some good-ish moments sprinkled here and there in the form of cinematics, but even those lost some of their coolness somewhere in SL. It's just years worth of filler. And at some point you lose interest, it doesn't merit the emotional investment anymore.
My next video is based entirely on Legion! Legion is without a doubt the true conclusion to Warcraft III. outside of Arthas' story which ended in Wrath. It did feel that Legion was impossible to top narratively, and it felt so strange going from somewhere like Argus back to something so casual. It always miffed me that Jaina showed up again too after storming off in Dalaran before Legion really kicked off; when we needed her most she abandoned us, and then just came back like it was nothing. I agree with your points, and thanks for your comment!
I think post mop the alliance and horde should be treated more like passive aggressive trade unions. With race conflicts being contextual.
To hype this up imagine is they had Thrall orks join the alliance and helped Jaina rebuild. While Horde get Defias humans.
This would allow conflicts be smaller scale and open up guilds and stories.
Like you can play blood elfs who are the rich upper class of the horde, who oppress the lower class trolls. Or blood elfs who are nice to humans, but view them as meet shield's to defend their Blood elf lives.
Blizzard could make War Within the greatest story ever told in a video game with the best gameplay in a video game ever and people would still find some BS to complain about.
Oh yeah, no doubt about it. It's the internet after all!
there are 3 certainties in life, death, taxes, and grown men whining about World of warcraft @@edd_TV
@@dh8657 I'll drink to that.
Didn't they bring back Chris Metzen out of retirement to try to save this franchise? That is hilarious to me haha
He is back, yeah. He came back during Dragonflight as an 'advisor' originally, I think and he is now spearheading their new trilogy of expansions.
Lukewarm take: Aspects were always vague, boring concept
I'm gonna say that's a cold take! I agree.
World of Warcraft used to be aimed at people who grew up playing Warcraft 1-3, now it's aimed at people who grew up playing World of Warcraft.
And that's probably fine, even if you prefer the old direction you can't argue with the fact that the people the game used to cater to, have all grown up and now have steady jobs and families to dedicate their time to instead. Continuing to base itself on the black and white, pencil drawn, heavy metal album cover esque art of the RTS games just isn't sustainable because the people who enjoy that kind of thing don't have time to dedicate to playing the game anymore.
That is true, but I think these players do exist still; the players that have jobs and families and so on,.But they more often tend to reside in Classic now. It's less demanding and time consuming. I don't disagree with you. Thanks for your comment!
WPvP doesn't sell as well as it did in WoW's hayday. FFXIV is notorious for how shitty it's pvp system is. But due to not having to squander time on developing zones to cater to WPvP or 2-faction competition, they were able to curate the community in such a way that certain cultural norms (such as helping new players or being generally nice) flourished. It's impact on the overall health and longevity of FFXIV cannot be understated. I think the current "meta" for most gamers is "why would I want to invalidate most of my hard work getting camped outside an instance like in Classic WoW when I could play a survival sandbox or live-service game for my pvp fix?" Newer MMOs don't necessarily curate the same WPvP aspect as Classic did. At best they'll relegate it to some form of battleground or timed event, especially if they have p2w elements. Not to mention the fact that people would just min/max and play the best faction, leaving the other faction without enough players to form raid or dungeon groups. Remember when Alliance was unplayable because everyone kept faction changing to Horde? We see a similar instance of this in WoW Classic where megaservers were dominated by 1 faction such as Benediction (Alliance) or Skeram (Horde). The only 2-3 people who remained on those servers in the minority faction were either getting camped to oblivion or were alts to fulfill the ahn'qiraj war effort turn-ins so the actual AQ raid could open faster.
I'd argue faction conflict is NOT marketable for newer MMOs and people naturally orientate towards the path of least resistance. You can talk about story all you want, but at the end of the day people who play WoW just skip quests and only concern themselves with mechanics and gear acquisition. WoW devs cater to their demographic compared to FFXIV's community that actually does care for story more often than not. I'd argue that from Blizzard's perspective Classic WoW's current attempts at Classic+ with SoD already fills the itch for faction v faction gameplay. Why risk Dragonflight falling down the same rabbit hole? Notice how they took queues from Classic's PvE components and storytelling when making Dragonflight instead of its PvP components.
I agree. I think War Mode was an interesting introduction and made World PvP a bit more relevant with achievements, and if you think back to something like The Battle of Nazjatar with the bounty on players. I liked that. Battlegrounds will always be superior though. I think the whole 'Flying Mounts killed World PvP' is just a myth. There are so many stories and things regarding Vanilla and the past that have simply been dispelled by Classic. I was very much in that camp that stayed Alliance when everybody switched Horde, and it such a shame. All the people and guilds I knew just dissipated.
You're very right. I think that is something that will continue for as long as WoW does too. I know not everybody plays the game as I (or others) do, and the story does often come second best to other things in the game, like the acquisition of gear for instance. I agree with your points. Thank you for your comment!
@@edd_TV Hope I didn't come off as unnecessarily aggressive in the comment. I do think it's such a hard predicament for whoever's left at Activision Blizzard that they might simply take the safest route possible. And I agree, Flying mounts were definitely not the worst offenders and were a natural extension of expansions adding more content.
I think with the way Blizzard's leveraging it's 3-4 WoWs nowadays, their banking on a WoW to fill a specific niche for a portion of their overall community so they technically never lose subs. The only problem is trying to convince new players to play WoW when the entire process of even picking a WoW (much less understanding retail's current story) can feel overwhelming.
@@GothaBillsAndDeath No of course not! These videos are made for discussion and opinion so don't ever feel that. I didn't get that vibe, so you're fine!
It's such a strange double edged sword I think. Like the way Blizzard attempt to map the levelling experience for a new player seems quite straight forward as far as gaining experience goes, but the world is just totally desolate and irrelevant, and you're just never going to see most of it. You're straight into BFA and then fast tracked into Dragonflight. I think it's overwhelming when players start to actually question the things they are doing and why they are being excluded from seeing so much content. I think if you're playing just for a levelling/endgame perspective, players probably won't find it overwhelming at all because they are achieving their goals quite quickly. But I do agree. I think it's a car-crash of an experience for a new player who actually cares about learning the game and the story; which is what my first video is about if you haven't seen that!
The target audience should be the majority of the players or in other words 30-40 year old men.
I don't think they know who their target audience is anymore. I think in an ideal world (of warcraft), Blizzard would like everybody to play the game from all walks of life, and that sounds great. But I don't think it's achievable. A lot of players are upset with how WoW has changed over the years and you are right I think, I would say the largest demographic (at least for the longest time) was people who are now in their 30s, not necessarily men though! Women do love WoW too.
I think The War Within will be a lot different to Dragonflight. I do think we will see hopefully a more familiar tone to what players are used to, but I think these 'touchy-feely' moments and conveying emotion are here to stay. And I think that's a good thing, providing it isn't constantly and it has substance when it's presented.
If they could just retcon pretty much the entirety of the Reclamation of Gilneas and sort of do that entire thing over again, with the undead as an actual enemy, Alliance forces in place of the Forsaken to show how far the kingdom has come since its isolationist introduction, and Genn remembering where he left his backbone that day, that would be great.
But that ain't ever going to happen. The end of the cool story spanning the Worgen starting zone and Silverpine Forest quests is a big, sloppy, wet fart of hand-holding, "We Are the World", Kumbaya crap. The conclusion to the tale of a people ousted from not one but two homes by objective acts of Horde aggression isn't retribution, it's pity. And along the way is referenced not one of the many conflicting rumors of the region's many unseen but mentioned turns of leadership through the years.
If I could give every writer involved in that slop-fest a flagpole wedgie, I totally would.
Ruined all my love for the zone and the story that was there.
I honestly hate them, and wish them the worst.
As big of a fan of the Scarlet Crusade I am, I do agree with you. The narrative of GIlneas and what truly happened there way back when was completely turned on its head when we returned. I think because of the way the factions are portrayed now, it's very much a "forgive and forget" thing, and that's a shame. Genn has carried this pain for a decade, and it just doesn't seem believable.
Legion was the last good expansion ... BFA was just ok
My next video is entirely based on Legion, and just HOW good it actually was. I should have it out in a few weeks. I agree with you wholeheartedly.
I haven't kept up with dragon flight, i've only scene the Chromie stuff, and that was good. Like Chromie wasn't really that hardcore
Chromie is my fav btw.
Wow went from having the pacing of medieval to now be more like a marvel movie. I think that's the main issue.
I think it started in cat, but ramped up in mop, and how it dosn't medevil anymore out side of some momments.
Also the bitch line is to mirror when she called Arthas a bitch.
That's very true. They take huge inspiration from the likes of Marvel and it shows. It feels like a cross between Disney Star Wars and Marvel at this point; bizarre plot decisions and often oddly placed humour.
@@edd_TV Star Wars is a good point. I'm talking about the pacing and tone. Not what's in a story.
Star wars a team story. and prequals era have all the same information issues of that era.
Disney Star wars I think influence on the looks, but not a strong one because not everything is brown.
Wow have more colors then brown and black.
I'm talking the colors and grating, not a race thing.
Also part of reason there's more sentimental stuff is because their moving that kind of stuff out of the books.
Like unless you played warcraft 3 would you even know that malfurion and artaxerxes married?
@@Hot_SpicyGrill Very well said.
@@edd_TV Hi this is a part two.
I think there fans of the clone wars shows pacing and look.
Like some of the plot could just be episodes of the show.
@@edd_TV Thank you i'm glad you like it!
I think youd make a great video comparing wow starting mostly in mop, feeling more like like the prequels and animated starwars.
You did it a bit here, but a full video fleshing it out would be nice.
I think no factions is ok for the "save the world" moment, but the real good decision would be a dinamic faction allegiance based on player choice.
Instead of just Horde and Alliance, let people decide who they want to support on different conflicts accross the globe. For example, they coudl tie in the reputation system with PvP. You win good reputation with one team and bad reputation with the opposite.
For example, I want to be a hero for the Amani and hated by the Blood Elves. However, when we raid against Iridikron, Burning Legion, Titans or whatever, we have to cooperate.
Imagine people working for the Scarlet Crusade and being hated by the Forsaken, Ebon Blade and Scourge for doing so.
That would give so many opportunities, another reason to have alts and see the quests provided by the different sides of conflicts, forced PvP against people you have wronged.
idk, like what a true RPG should be?
I think that would be really interesting. It does make you wonder if there could ever be a point where a human could wander into Orgrimmar, or an Orc into Stormwind. I think player choice is a massive thing these days, and I'd love to see more of that. I like that reputation idea. I think some sort of conflict like that would be good, and then obviously as you mention we will band together for the main narrative so there are no issues there. I suppose similar to the Aldor/Scryer reputation with Shattrath in TBC. That sounds like a lot of fun. It could provide some interesting storyline, cutscenes and of course transmog ,which is the true end-game!
That's the dream which is pretty much impossible to develop on MMO scale. Some games tried to introduce some player-driven branching plots or some semblance of politics, but it ended up in a development hell and was quickly abandoned. True RPGs work best with single player / coop because it's much simpler to build all of it around just one actor.
Something with a lesser influence on the world, more personal and character-specific could work, and even be fun to sandbox fans, but it'd require Larian's balls, not current Blizzard's balls.
WoW could easily solve the faction rivalry while keeping our current progress of cross-faction lifestyle by…..
simply introducing faction pvp under the in-lore guise of tournaments and “games”. turn it into a sport that the factions LOVE. something that gives the people organic entertainment they’ve needed. healthy rivalry. etc. then you still have a reason to do questing and dungeons with your cross faction friends, but if you’re serious about pvp you are separated by faction as that’s how the sport is played.
but i dream.
(also i can’t believe there’s people triggered by chromie hugging someone lmao or elves kissing)
That would be pretty fun, a bit similar to the Trial of the Champion and stuff like that from Wrath. That would be cool. I like that!
This is exactly how the "factions" in FFXIV work. The three factions are in the same alliance (Eorzean Alliance) but there are war games (PvP) to keep the armies sharp and to boost morale. It totally works
i admit some of the flirts were rapey, but they removed the fisting one from highmountain making them no longer canonically bisexual
Some of them I can understand, but it seemed like such an odd way to reinforce their beliefs and values. I think it's the thought process and agenda behind it all. It was their way of seeking forgiveness and vowing to do better.
It's not that bad to have emotional moments in a story. I mean, you see these kinds of things even in Warhammer 40K. Yes, there are some genuinely wholesome moments in Warhammer; a universe for violence and oceanic quantities of blood.
But in my opinion I will say, without a sliver of doubt, that Warcraft has slowly changed for the worse.
I blame Blizzard for the most of it since they HAD to cater to that crying side of the fanbase that really didn't like to shut up unless their needs were met and the game slowly got stripped of what made it, in my opinion, special. It used to mean something when you picked a faction, it used to mean something when you considered what race you were choosing and the class you were going to play. But thanks to some "well thought out lore plans", we will slowly enter the age of classes for every race soon enough where nothing matters anymore.
I don't mind the muzzle on PvP. I remember I had to stay on high allert everywhere I went, weary of some steroid injected PvP junkie that might shred me to bits at any given moment. Even fun moments like the Fishing event in Stranglethorn turned into a bloodbath because... why the heck not.
I agree. They absolutely have a place in WoW, or any other game for that matter, regardless of how dark/gloomy the themes may be.
I think you have hit the nail on the head. I think Blizzard listening to their audience sooner needed to happen, but more in reference to the systems or feedback that players would give them from the PTR. Devs thought they knew best for the longest time, until now we're seeing them go back on their opinion and we're finally getting something like Warbands which will give us account wide reputations and so on.
As for influence from fans regarding the story, it's a strange one. Alex Afrasiabi had a hand in the downfall of Sylvanas which would have started in Legion, and then with Steve Danuser taking over in BFA, it just feels very similar to the Star Wars sequels for me. Bringing in a different director halfway through a story or whatever, who has a completely different vision than the guy before.
I think we're already in that age sadly, where classes and races do feel the same. Thanks for your comment!
@@edd_TV There's a manga artist in japan that once said that it's not good to read about what's being said of your work, otherwise it stops belonging to you. WoW is an example of that.
Silvanas herself was a pretty shallow character in my opinion. In WC3 it all ended on the note of her trying to find meaning in her undead existence. In WoW, she only showed remorse/emotion during the quest where a locket found in Windrunner Spire was given to her. In WoTLK she was fixated on her revenge for what Arthas did, but got cheated out of it.
After that... she became unrecognizable and was steadily turned into a petty person with genocidal tendencies.
She then became a whitewashed criminal in Shadowlands where she got off easy under the excuse that she was manipulated and is now chilling in the afterlife for a while. Basically a slap on the wrist kind of punishment after what she did to "prove a point" about life and freedom. Very poorly handled character.
@@MessagerOfHell I like that quote. I remember Sylvanas being a fan favourite for a REALLY long time, but the wheels came off so fast in BFA. I think you're right though. There felt like a lot more depth and complexity to her in the past. Poorly handled might be an understatement!
From my knowledge, they weren't allowed to kill her as she was too valuable to the franchise, so they were put in such a strange position with her being such a big villain, and this is what ultimately shaped her 'redemption', if we can call it that in Shadowlands. She'll be back, no doubt about it. I think Metzen said in Midnight we would be finally heading to Quel'Thalas, it makes sense she would be a part of that.
Thanks for your comment!
@@edd_TV It may be a complicated subject but I don't see how valuable a character might be that makes you bend things so hard in her favor. I believe her special treatment went too far.
Look at Arthas, the guy's only moment of clarity was when the soul of his father cradled him in his arms as he drew his final breath. Where was his redemtion? The last spark of his existence was snuffed out while Silvanas uttered a mild curse that he fade away into nothingness.
Look at Garrosh. He was a ruthless bastard, but he embodied what a true Warchief of the Horde would be. A conqueror that sought honor in battle. Someone that made you proud to be a member of the Horde how Varian Wrynn was for the Alliance. And from Warchief he went on a Terminator-inspired trip to the past after being brainwashed by an old god...
I feel like whomever is picking up the next expansions has their work cut out for them.
@@MessagerOfHell I think so too.
I have to agree that the target audience is not for the old players, it's for the newer, more sensitive playerbase and that's fine. The older generation will move on rightfully and let the youthful ones go on. RIP Arthas - wisp form was such a disappointment.
I can't sum that up any better, you're right. And I agree, the wisp form was challenging to watch.
asmongold gonna react to this
I'm more focused on people having discussions and sharing their opinions, but that would be fun.
I will always say it, ever since people started to compare WoW to FF14 their stories changed being more soft and family friendly.
I think you're right. I think they have definitely taken influence from FFXIV's story on some levels, but I think it's all valid. I think we can see these sort of 'soft' moments if the narrative calls for it, but it does feel very out of place because it's such a recent and new thing. We never saw stuff like this in the past and it's been quite profound in Dragonflight, and I wonder what it's going to be like going into The War Within.
Too little too late is still a major theme, I stopped after DFs first season not just because I don't recognize it but they keep on making similar mistakes of making a system and then forgetting about it.
It's supposed to be a world...not this contained amalgamation...
I also stopped after Dragonflight's first season. I did all the keys on +20 to unlock the portals and then just felt hollow, and didn't know what else to do. I didn't have any friends that were playing the game, as most had quit or were playing classic, and I felt the same loneliness I felt during WoD, so I unsubbed. I've recently gone back, bother to gather footage for videos and also to check out things such as the reclamation of Gilneas and the Emerald Dream. But I agree with you, it does feel unrecognisable at times and I think getting bombarded with so many different quests in a totally disjointed order narratively is so jarring. They even offer you a story skip for free so you can jump straight into the Emerald Dream, essentially just skipping story content. I don't get it.
Thanks for your comment!
@edd_TV I progged mythic raz for a while, and just broke into 20s thanks to a long time friend who still messages me when ret paladins are popping off ( atm they are #1). We still play wotlk together and are progging h lich king.
The whole sub-culture of 17s to 19s felt like such hassle to get through with tons of people of quitting at the first sight of trouble, it was geniunely hard to communicate as learning the subtle differences between each bracket is a process of itself.
I mean I can think of a few contributing factors as to why people barely talk in groups nowadays but it isn't all the players fault.
The bot situation getting out of hand and blizzard manifisting everybody and their mother to get that bis necklace from jewelcrafting put a sour taste in my mouth. I went blacksmithing toolsmithing on my main and quickly found out just about anybody can make an alt and spam 3 star green tools that pretty much negated anybody needing regular blue quality tools.
Essentially every time I changed my entire strategy of making some money so I can spam high quality battle pots I was too late to the market and it was practically worthless and more time efficient to fight bots on gathering nodes.
One could say that's my own fault but I just burned myself out chasing leads on my own for them all to kinda fall apart as I should've spent more time on something else.
I can still find a way to play the game, but blizzard has decided you can't stack an alt with a leg enchant/shoulder enchant by breaking the level requirement. Pretty much 60% of all legacy enchants don't work or can't be used. You need an actual spreadsheet to see which legacy items are not broken and stuck at ilevel 0 or generally being unusable. Shadowlands gems are actually super cool to use on an alt, but you only can play with then from level 38 to 50 and then they are useless from scaling.
Eh I could write more but at this point I'm just ranting into the void lol.
I've called it world of elf craft after every story ever is always about elves. I'm sick of elves so much. theres other races blizzard.
The fact the Dracthyr's visage form is similar of an Elf too, it does feel like it's getting a bit much now.
@edd_TV and the next big bad. The orc expansion was overtaken by elves, dragons are 99% elves. It's all elves once you notice it.
Blizzard has learned nothing from Star Wars
Their paths have been terrifyingly similar.
You could argue Warcraft has fallen further than Star Wars. At least Disney tries to have SOME semblance of "this is still Star Wars" on paper; whereas Blizz don't care in the slightest and have blatantly gone full Sailor Moon / My Little Pony.
Full clearout needed at Blizz.
@@borisfrlic That is true. I think Mando Season 1 felt very much like Star Wars. A lot of people praise Rogue One too. There is just more misses than hits with Disney Star Wars, as opposed to WoW where it seems to be constant swings and misses. I think the gameplay side of things in Dragonflight is pretty solid, but narratively it feels difficult to want to invest myself into.
@@edd_TV
Nailed it on Mando. S01 felt like Star Wars - there was that immersion; that smell of reality that GL executed so brilliantly.... That opening scene of ep1 you could argue is a top 10 character intro of all time.
Rogue One IMO was very black and white. Some stuff was brilliant like the Death Star, the shots with the star destroyers, Krennic's bodyguards, the costumes, Galen Erso, Krennic's scenes with Vader and Tarkin, etc... then the other stuff with the Rebels was way too childish and naive for me.
Everyone loved the hallway scene with Vader, but I personally found that scene quite dorky and corny - more of a fan film.
Yep DF gameplay very solid. What is the narrative, even?... "Yay, cuddly, feminised dragons!!!", ?.... As you say, its missed layup after missed layup.
Back to basics required. Gotta focus on the race & class fantasy, aesthetic and story, amidst the larger cosmic narrative. More stuff like Order Halls, faction transmog & mounts, intraracial stories like they had in Classic that build the world.
The WORLD from WORLD of Warcraft is missing.
@@borisfrlic Very good comment, agree with everything you've said!
It's an unpopular opinion with the general PvP community, but I'll say it with my full chest:
World PvP is horrible for online games.
It's a form of play that is inherently disruptive and enables players to actively harass and grief each other. When a game has clear and distinct PvP game modes separate from story and questing, the players that are invested in those stories or quests are instantly pulled out of the immersion of the game world when they get ganked by some higher level player.
"Killing" world PvP as you put it probably saved World of Warcraft, as it made the game palatable for a much, much larger audience. War Mode is unironically one of the best features they've ever come up with. Giving players the option to engage in open world PvP at max level puts players on an even playing field, and makes routine tasks like gathering and daily quests more interesting.
The people that complain about the death of open world PvP are, by and large, the toxic players that enjoy spawn camping the Auction House or that hang around rare mobs to gank underleveled and undergeared players. We see a ton of this in SoD right now with Hunters sending their pets to harass and disrupt lower level players. It's unhinged and toxic behavior like this that we shouldn't be lamenting.
Very true. I'm not a PvPer personally. I did play on a PvP realm back in the day, but that was mainly because my friends did. It's not something I'm particularly invested in. I've never opted into War Mode since its inception for example, as like you say, it's a distraction and an interruption from the things I'm trying to achieve in the game. I don't necessarily think this is a hot take, and if it is, I'm in the camp with you. I can understand that people really love PvP, but I do think it simply belongs in battlegrounds/arena and such.
I appreciate your honesty and opinion, thanks for watching!
It's a mix of everything for me: the story just isn't engaging, there's little class or race identity, and the gameplay feels bloated. Then there's the fact that mods are basically required to do any content other than questing.
WoW2 is all that would bring me back to retail, since that's the only way to fix the majority of these problems
Mods are something I absolutely overlooked in this video, that's a great point. It's so relevant to 'identity', but we are at a stage now where boss fights are literally designed around addons such as DBM and weakauras. WoW 2 is such an interesting idea, but I do wonder who would actually work on this if it was ever to be realised, because if it was the same people, it may beg the question...why bother? Thanks for your comment!
I dont know if WoW (and the franchise in general) really has changed. I was a bit too young and my parents a bit too wary of video games when wow was first released and the first warcraft is in fact older than me. I'm really new to the universe, having been dragged in by a recently met friend. And as a new comer, I find WoW frustrating. I want to love it. I want to love an epic fantasy setting with heroes and villains and conflicts and emotions. I want to enjoy stories about humans and elves and dragons and all the other stuff. It should speak to me. I like that they balance (or try to) the more serious with jokes etc. But the game resist me. It's very ahrd to get into because everything is refering to something else. The story's delivery is very stilted, there's a feeling that something is lacking. The humour feels unbalanced, out of place and often (always?) immature. I played all of dragonflight and it wasn't a *bad* story per se but I can't say I loved it either. it felt so rushed and underachieved.
No game is perfect, for as much as I adore ff14 I will say it has its weakness. Even its story telling, its greatest strenght, isnt always on point. But there's a feelign that wow is in a perpetual childhood. Never really maturing and finding who it is, relying a lot on cheap things. Like it wants to be both old school black and white fantasy and at the same time grey and grey. Idk. It's unsatisfying and yet there's something there, it could grow into something truly great. A real frustration for people who have been around for so long i suppose. To me it jsut makes it an ok game I mostly play to hang with a friend without caring much about it.
I know so many people who feel the same way as you do. I think everybody wants to love Warcraft, because it really is epic and so beloved. A lot of people share your opinions on Dragonflight, but with Metzen back at the forefront for The Worldsoul Saga, maybe you'll get your wish!
I think you're right. I think it's in a very confusing and polarising state right now, where they aren't even sure who they are trying to appeal to anymore. Thanks for your comment!
@@edd_TV Yeah, my friends was also optimistic about the director change and I am hopeful that this will give me a chance to enjoy wow the way they do. At worst its a new expansion i get to explore with them. Its sad because looking at some of the odler content, I can tell there was a spark there, im just not sure it got properly nutured and I do not know what they should do, but they do need to commit to something rather than try to be just a nostalgia bait for their own fandom.
@@ursulcx299 It was like a bolt of lightning, let alone a spark. I really can't put it into words, and it's such a shame that the game wasn't preserved well enough or had new player experiences in mind, so sadly anything you intend to experience has just totally decayed. An authentic experience outside of playing Classic WoW is just impossible, as opposed to potential features they could implement like Minimum ilvl from FFXIV for example. I think the Worldsoul saga is the commitment you're thinking of, at least I hope so! Laying out a roadmap of three expansions is serious intent I think. Fingers crossed, huh?
@@edd_TV Yeah, I hope so! It felt a bit too MCU for me to be fully optimistic, but hey, I'm willing to give them a chance
Dragonflight is for WoW what the Eternals was for the MCU ... Filler
I haven't seen Eternals, but I didn't hear great things about it. I don't think I've watched any Marvel films after Endgame actually, besides the latest Spider-Man. I think maybe in time people will look back on Dragonflight in a better light if The Worldsoul Saga does REALLY well. Iridikron is going to be important going forward you would imagine, and he was a product of Dragonflight, so maybe people will see this as an expansion that really set things into motion. As it stands though, it does appear to be absolutely filler, I agree.
@@edd_TV Iridikron is indeed a very good villain all things considered,but in the grand scheme of things what exactly did this expansion accomplished other than bringing back the aspects and replacing a few of them in some questionable ways... I'm a lore nerd and this expansion was great in that regard ,but nothing else was a breakthrough
@@ipsyc True enough, especially because I would probably wager that the aspects won't even serve much of a purpose going forward either, judging from their past execution with 'main expansion characters'. They weren't mentioned at all during Blizzcon, which characters such as Anduin, Alleria and Thrall coming back into the fold. Iridikron will be the big takeaway from all of this I think. I feel the same as you regarding the lore.
Dragon flights biggest problem is aesthetic. Everything new in dragonflight looks incredibly puerile and uncool.
Something I thought earlier when playing was, I don't feel anything for any of the zones, besides maybe The Azure Span, and I think that's because it's flirting with The Grizzly Hills from Wrath, and also has a nod to Antonidas, Nesingwary and of course the Tuskarr. The other zones are so forgettable for me, and I don't think I've felt that way about any other expansion, besides maybe Shadowlands.
@@edd_TV yeah, nothing has as aesthetic identity. It's all just chunky cartoon deviantart dragons in super generic fantasy world #100.
Let's be real, WoW does not have and never had has a good storytelling. Vanilla and TBC were plot-agnostic for the most part, Cata, WoD, BfA, and SL were if not bad, at least very polarizing (SL and WoD were objectively terrible). Wrath, MoP and Legion were the exceptions, not the rule.
Many people say "it's world of WARcraft" but, for me at least, is WORLD of warcraft. The game is not a metrics competition, is not a story, is not even the factions. It's a world. A fantasy world like no other were everything can happen, incredibly immersive, deep, and wonderous. I think the reason SoD is so beloved is because it uses the main asset of the game, the world, to a huge success, despite having almost no plot whatsoever. I really do hope something alike can be incorporated to the main game, so everyone can remember how marvellous the entire world is. That's why people liked the Secrets of Azeroth event so much, I think.
and btw, when people complain about WoW going soft in Dragonflight, I remember those were the same players that abandoned the game when it was as its most insufferable grimdark mode (BfA and SL) to play FF14 of all things.
Great video! you always have excellent takes!
I see where you're coming from, kind of. You say WoW doesn't have good storytelling but then mention three expansions that are 'exceptions', so it surely exists somewhere right? I was wondering where Legion was in this, as I would have been shocked if you hadn't mentioned it at all, before noticing it was one of your exceptions. I was going to say, it would have been pretty ignorant to suggest that Legion wasn't a great storytelling experience, because it's without a shadow of a doubt their best as far as WoW expansions go in my opinion.
I agree that it is a world, but not THE world as it once was. The 'world' in the eyes of Blizzard now is for you to ignore the majority of it. Rush to the end game ASAP and jump into the latest content. The world isn't what it used to be, and honestly it can't ever be again. It's so big and desolate. I think you're right about SoD, with another reason being hey are actually fleshing out classes that were simply incomplete or not viable during Vanilla. That and of course, people are just mad for Classic generally! I think people will be playing Classic WoW for the rest of time. It's a sure-fire money maker, and I think we'll see Classic fresh-upon-fresh as the years continue.
That's a very good point about both BFA and Shadowlands too. I think it was probably the chores that drove most people away in BFA though, and I guess Shadowlands was just infamous for its confusing and what seemed like incomplete storytelling, an undying thirst to obtain anima faster, and an annoying powerplay system in covenants.
Thank you for your comment and kind words!
Tbh i also often have the feeling that many of that people never play FF14 at all and just need a scapegoat to blame.. i mean Endwalker have some parts about Suicide, or the Darkknight Story starts with a Knight that kills a padophil Priest etc.. some Player just look at some screenshotes from Degenerate Down (Limsa) and say "Yeah this is the whole game!"
I mean when we take the most not serious point from both MMOs as "Standard" then is WoW a Fanfiction of a 12y old Boy that like Metal.
PS. I like both franchises
@@kohlicoide2258 Very good comment. Thank you for sharing! I agree with you.
Okay I have some input, but I'm not attacking, I loved this video.
The weird way Alextrasza talks is actually one of the biggest hinderences to Dragonflight. She's been speaking the same way since Vanilla and people would be possibility rightly grumpy if she changed her vocal mannerisms, even with the same VA. Her slow sesquipedalian mode of taking really frustrates modern pacing, even if her lines were on point. Also seeing her get her ass handed to her as many times as we saw this expansion was too much, they really should have been more judicious with it. I definitely feel like Fyrakk should have had her near death in 10.2 and needed rescuing, but in the 10.0 leveling campaign she shouldn't have needed Wrathion's aid to drive her off, let bring the dragon queen mean something.
The 10.1 story really did Wrathion and Sebellion dirty. I really liked the Niffin lady roasting him for his fancy cologne, that's actually a good dig at him without sacrificing his character growth, and that was the right angle for that conflict. The conflict between the brothers should have been between the dragon that cares too much about mortal concerns and the one who cares too little. They should have portrayed Sebellion a bit less trusting of mortal aid, but because of the structure of 10.0 endgame they wanted a certain balance and we're worried about having a familiar friendly face vs some rando from the first expansion who might be overly critical. The quest to "escort the eggs" from the leveling campaign was actually top tier interaction between the brothers. And the ultimate payoff that the Diplomat and the General should both step aside and let the spiritual heart lead could have been a more potent beat, but Blizz really wanted to push Wrathion/Sebellion rivalry, and having experienced during the early expansion I'm not sure they were wrong to do so, but I think it didn't do it exactly right. I'm very glad they took the chance. Ebenhorn and Emberthal's conversation at the end of 10.0.7 story kinda telegraphed the result to me, and I really underestimated how much emotion they could put on a Dracthyr face. I kinda wished it had been telegraphed louder, because so many people online were so sideswiped when Ebenhorn got the Aspect job.
I'm one of those players who is absolutely living for the more interpersonal storytelling between the characters and these moments give me life. This is the needed "low stakes" expansion people have been clamoring for, yes technically fire corrupted Amirdrassil would have brought ruination upon Azeroth, but no one felt that, we all just wanted the Nelfs to have a nice new home after the burning of Teldrasil (I only play Horde, and I fought Fyrakk not to "save Azeroth", just give the Nelfs a new home, and assuage my guilt for Teldrasil). Dragonflight really needed to take this opportunity to lower the stakes going into World Within, Dragonflight was a breather in terms of stakes, and that needed to happen after the failure of Shadowlands. This whole expansion felt like we were helping our friends rather than handling world ending issues, and I'm actually kinda greatful for the reprieve.
And anyone who talks shit about Chromie rushing to hug Nozdormu at the end of that quest line, I ask you to watch children of military veterans rushing to their parent coming home from deployment and not feel something.
I'm glad you really enjoyed it, and I appreciate such a passionate response! I agree with everything you have said and feel the same as you do. Thank you for watching the video and taking the time to write up such a detailed comment.
@@edd_TV thank you for responding, you offer a great kind of level headed and measured response that the community needs more of, keep up the great work!
@@EloquentTroll You're very welcome. I'm always very interested in people's takes and opinions! Thank you for engaging with the channel so much, and thank you for your kind words. It's greatly appreciated.
This is a solid video, but dont get tricked into what weirdos are saying in Twitter. many of the points you bring up cam EASILY be explained or reasoned through, but its not popular to do so. Keep up the great work!
Noted! Thank you!
I'll give my list of bullet points as to why WoW feels like has changed for some people.
-BfA ruined the core element of the game, that being the factions. The irreparable damage BfA attempt at epicness did has them trying to fix its plot 6 years later. That's why the story is so much more mellow. It has to be while they reconstruct what they messed up.
-Developers changed, people don't realize that but many of the "Big sweaty men" promoters, were actually the same seniors that were compliant (and sometimes took part in) sexual harassament.
-Target audience changed, Blizzard can capitalize more on people who treat WoW as "The Sims" or "Second Life" rather than people who are already in their 30's and 40's, plus the new target audience has more disposable income to which to appeal to. One thing that personally always felt crazy to me is that WoW failed so hard at the "essentials" of things like clothing in transmog. The vanilla shirts are nice, but we really don't have much up-to-date transmogs that reflect a character in a normal journey like the vanilla adventurer people so sorely miss, or a Stormwind citizen, for example, that's why things like the Magical Girl set came out. It's an attempt of that flavor that varies from cool flashy raid sets with spikes and rough details.
-Collective values have changed, as well as, this was just the natural progression of the game. This was bound to happen eventually because of time. Time goes on and with it change comes along. The same city you lived in 2010 may not feel the same today, same with the game.
Here's what I have a problem with:
People who constantly cry about the lack "grit, epicness and rudeness" in Warcraft, from my experience, love particularly problematic storylines, engage in toxic behavior, love double standards and consume content at a surface level. The story is being criticized when it attempts to be better than it used to but people really forget WoW's story was never particularly good. Back in TBC nobody knew why Kael became evil, in LK they retconed around 6 times, within the same expansion who was in control in the Helm of Domination, Cata had a gazillion terrible references which greatly diminished the importance of the story (and a ton of SA written into its story like Kyrigosa) and during pandaria Warcrimes was a mess of a book. The story's "never" been good, but the story not being good is a point that gets only brought out because it doesn't appeal to 40 year olds still attached to the game. The same people who cheered for Arthas the tragic fallen prince reveled in calling female characters like Sylvanas, Jaina and Tyrande "crazy b!tches" when they went as mad as every guy character in WoW who in turn was taken as a "badass." People also have complained about WoW being "Disney" since Pandaria, since the WoD model updates, and everything else. The same people who wish for this "WARcraft" era to come back are the same ones who screamed in everybody's ear's when Blizzard introduced black elves to the game and removed -that- Garrosh voiceline from the game, the same one that said they were "pandering" to minorities to sell them the products as an evil company when the devs themselves are part of said minorities and publicly have them displayed in their work profiles and twitter bios, the same devs they then harass when something does not go their way. People don't "recognize" the game with the magical girl set coming out, but conveniently ignore the INSANELY beautiful raid sets that have come out of Dragonflight.
The story doesn't have a "soul" because it never made sense in the MMO, it was just a spoonfed streamline of "EPIC BRO XD" moments that made players think that way, because they didn't critically engage with the content.
Although I believe part of the points are very, very valid, and I myself miss *some* of the edginess of the game, people really have no nuance when it comes to "what happened" to the it, and so for me it ends up feeling like an attempt at a moral panic coming from people who haven't realized the game is no longer for them, and I'm glad that is the case, and I'm glad they're leaving, because most of the people who want that back were never really good for the social environment of the MMO.
Very strong analysis. Your 'problem' paragraph is extremely well written. Thank you for such a detailed comment!
So many points and I agree with 100% of them. And yes we need more war and less woke.
Glad you enjoyed it! I think the way they have handled Dragonflight has been okay, but we need balance, and I'm hoping they will find it in The War Within going forward. It's okay for characters (and even players) to feel vulnerable and I don't think there's anything wrong with expressing emotion, but I think for a lot of players they have felt it is too 'touchy-feely' and obviously doesn't resemble the way the game used to be, but in the words of Garrosh: Times change!
@@edd_TV It feels like too many ppl are writing and pulling it in their direction. I really hope metzen brings cohesion to the whole narrative.
@@nikroth Time will tell. I think we have to be hopeful. From a gameplay perspective I think Dragonflight has done very well and I think the hype for The War Within and the saga generally has a serious buzz around it. I think it will pull a lot of players back into the game, but whether it will have any staying power is difficult to say.
I'll never get the whole "Alliance vs Horde" fanaticism. Not saying it's fanaticism in your video's case, but...
Warcraft, Warcraft 2, Warcraft 3, Starcraft, Starcraft 2. Hell, even the Diablo games have come-together moments between enemy factions. Though the Diablo examples are all a stretch, individually.
They even find multiple ways to ally Zerg with both Protoss and Terran. I feel the importance of Horde vs Alliance, Red vs Blue, has been EXTREMELY overblown. And when it has been a focus, I'd say it's ALWAYS been awful. Forcing the Horde to be the bad guy so often when you're competing for the role of hero on the side is just... ridiculous. Irreconcilable with the overarching plot, at times. Alliance has had their moments, but only Horde has been forced to be complicit - and those moments exist since WoW Vanilla. And don't in Warcraft 3, interestingly enough. (They definitely do in 1 and 2, but those were far more dichotomous games.)
It's been very pivotal throughout all of those games histories, you're absolutely right. I think this is why BFA came off so odd. We just had the biggest battle EVER against the Legion, and now we're just gonna fight again? I think my views have definitely changed a little since releasing this video and hearing other peoples opinions too. I think I miss the way things used to be, but they obviously had to change. The game was so very restrictive and I just don't think it's very compelling storytelling anymore. It's just fuelled by nostalgia. I think it can still exist, but only in smaller areas of the game. You make an amazing point too about the Horde being seen as the 'bad guy'. I always viewed them as the 'enemy' personally because I played Alliance, but BFA was genuinely scandalous the way the Horde had to take the fall for Sylvanas' actions. It was very unfair.
Thank you for watching and typing this up. It was a very enlightening read!